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<v Speaker 1>Hey, folks, welcome to a bonus interview for the episode

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<v Speaker 1>on The Brave. The day that we put The Brave out,

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<v Speaker 1>I got contacted by Charles Evans Junior. He was one

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<v Speaker 1>of the producers of the film. Wanted to come on

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<v Speaker 1>the air and talk a little bit about his experience

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<v Speaker 1>working on The Brave. So sat down with them two

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<v Speaker 1>days after that recorded this interview. I'll have this available

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<v Speaker 1>for folks to listen to here, or I'll go ahead

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<v Speaker 1>and cut this back into the episode as well, so

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<v Speaker 1>people have a full experience of listening about The Brave.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks so much, and I hope you enjoyed this bonus interview.

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<v Speaker 1>So I've been doing a little digging. It looks like

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<v Speaker 1>you were kind of destined for show business. I didn't

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<v Speaker 1>realize that you had a famous family.

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<v Speaker 2>I do everybody in my family or filmmakers, my mom,

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<v Speaker 2>my dad, my cousins, my uncle and uncle being the

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<v Speaker 2>most known of them, Robert Evans.

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<v Speaker 3>Were you interested in that as a child or were

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<v Speaker 3>you just like, no, no, I'm going to do my

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<v Speaker 3>own thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's the only thing I ever thought of doing,

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<v Speaker 2>so yeah, and mostly because my mom let me spend

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<v Speaker 2>time with her while she was editing her documentaries and

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<v Speaker 2>all and on sixteen millimeter film, and she do it

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<v Speaker 2>in the like all night long, and it was our thing,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was very special and subversive because I could

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<v Speaker 2>stay away from school the next day and it was

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<v Speaker 2>kind of great. Yeah, that's all I ever thought of doing.

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<v Speaker 3>Did you go to school for it?

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<v Speaker 2>Undergrad short story writing, Berkeley grad a USC film school.

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<v Speaker 2>After I graduated, I got several writing jobs, low budget,

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<v Speaker 2>kind of made. I was determined to write a serial

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<v Speaker 2>killer script kind of in the early nineties, just after

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<v Speaker 2>I finished film school and made my short film that

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<v Speaker 2>won a bunch of rewards, and so ended up getting

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<v Speaker 2>a couple of writing jobs. I don't even remember the

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<v Speaker 2>name of the company. This was a low budget movie

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<v Speaker 2>for it was going to be sowd in twenty six

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<v Speaker 2>days and called Bungalow nine. I'm sure it wasn't probably

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<v Speaker 2>ever made. But and then what adaptation for my uncle

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<v Speaker 2>at Paramount A project called this since that Paul Gallo

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<v Speaker 2>ended up rewriting and I don't think was made. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not sure. I don't think it was made. And then

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<v Speaker 2>I had to take care of my drug addiction at

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<v Speaker 2>the time, so I had to just focus on that

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<v Speaker 2>for a little bit. Worked at Disney as a development executive.

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<v Speaker 2>I went to work from a friend of mine as

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<v Speaker 2>a director, Randall Kleiser, and tried to get people. He

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<v Speaker 2>was at the time doing Honey, I blew up the

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<v Speaker 2>Kid and a Touchdown, And when I left his company

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<v Speaker 2>to start my own, he was signed up to do

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<v Speaker 2>a right to life thriller. So that seemed like a

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<v Speaker 2>big success. And then we found out that the fellow

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<v Speaker 2>who sold the project and got financing for a tailor

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<v Speaker 2>hacker draft kind of scavenged his own story from the

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<v Speaker 2>sixties and it was based on something else. So it

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<v Speaker 2>just all fell apart. But I started my company in

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<v Speaker 2>ninety two and then The Brave was one of my

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<v Speaker 2>first projects.

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<v Speaker 3>So how did that come to you?

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<v Speaker 2>Touchstone had a in house competition with their executives. They

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<v Speaker 2>gave them each a fund of money to do with

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<v Speaker 2>what they would like to do and kind of let

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<v Speaker 2>the cream rise to the top sort of idea, and

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<v Speaker 2>my company got two of those projects. One of them

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<v Speaker 2>was a documentary on comedy classes where people took a

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<v Speaker 2>comedy class for the first time and performed a stand

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<v Speaker 2>up for the first time. At the end of it,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was pretty funny, and it turned out a

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<v Speaker 2>little too like raunchy and dark for Touchstone but at

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<v Speaker 2>the time and so that wasn't released, but at least

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<v Speaker 2>it got done. And the other one was The Brave,

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<v Speaker 2>and we had an opportunity with all of the kind

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<v Speaker 2>of enthusiasm for Paul mccutton's script that was generated. We

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<v Speaker 2>were kind of the devil whispering and the fellow's ear

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<v Speaker 2>who controlled the project, a fellow named Disease. We were saying,

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<v Speaker 2>you've got to direct this. It'scott it's your project, this

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<v Speaker 2>is your chance, and you know, Updrour directors were really

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<v Speaker 2>pushing for it, and he took meetings with them, and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it was like Jody Foster and Oliver Stone

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<v Speaker 2>and it was kind of one of those leaving Las

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<v Speaker 2>Vegas paradigm story where you say, what's kind of happen

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<v Speaker 2>and it's so bleak you can't believe that it's going

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<v Speaker 2>to happen, and the surprise is is that it does.

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<v Speaker 2>And I guess sort of the model of it, a

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<v Speaker 2>homeless man who lives in a dump with his wife

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<v Speaker 2>and kid is offered more money than he's ever seen

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<v Speaker 2>in his life to die a week later in the

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<v Speaker 2>snuff film and he takes it and it's and it's

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<v Speaker 2>about his last week on Earth before going through with

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<v Speaker 2>the deal, and it was it was a dark story.

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<v Speaker 2>The scene that really shocked everyone in the beginning is

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<v Speaker 2>the snuff filmmaker walking around the lead subject talking to

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<v Speaker 2>him about how he will be carved up and how,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, kind of like the mechanics of the snuff

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<v Speaker 2>film that will be happening at the end of the

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<v Speaker 2>week and the kind of theater of the mind stuff

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<v Speaker 2>that is left a lot of people shaken, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think was a hook to some people to have this

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<v Speaker 2>hanging over the narrative that follow and Ausis decided I

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<v Speaker 2>need to you know. I came to him and offered

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<v Speaker 2>like four shooting days with a crew with a budget

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<v Speaker 2>like seventy five grand or something to make a like

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<v Speaker 2>like show what you can do with this, you know material.

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<v Speaker 2>And at the time, we had Benicio del Toro cast,

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<v Speaker 2>we were cast crewed, located and it was like five

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<v Speaker 2>days away from shooting when he didn't show up to

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<v Speaker 2>work on a Monday, and we heard that he was

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<v Speaker 2>last seen fleeing his home before it exploded in flames,

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<v Speaker 2>and the bodies of his daughter and wife were found

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<v Speaker 2>bleudgeend inside and he was missing. And so everybody touched

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, graciously or courageously stepped away and said

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<v Speaker 2>let's see something else. And we thought this would just

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<v Speaker 2>go nowhere. And it was a terrible, horrific thing that happened.

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<v Speaker 2>And then Johnny Call he had read the script, he

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<v Speaker 2>responded strongly to it and said he was determined to

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<v Speaker 2>make the film and to can with us. And and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, meeting a bunch of different prospective financiers, he

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to you know, direct, and he said he would star,

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<v Speaker 2>and that was the lure for them, because he would

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<v Speaker 2>forego his acting these so he could star, so he

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<v Speaker 2>could direct. I mean, and Jeremy Thomas, like, I didn't

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<v Speaker 2>know how, you know, brilliant a filmmaker he was, and

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<v Speaker 2>you know who he was until we met with him,

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<v Speaker 2>and he was listed as a critical elementor I forget

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<v Speaker 2>the phrase that financiers use that essential element. That's it.

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<v Speaker 2>And we got financing like five million dollars to make

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<v Speaker 2>this movie and went from there. And Johnny really wanted

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<v Speaker 2>the look and feel of a mere costa Rica that

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<v Speaker 2>he had grown so close with and Arizona Dreams. And

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<v Speaker 2>so we got the production designer and DP brought that film,

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<v Speaker 2>Vilco Fhelock, and I forget the production designer's name at

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<v Speaker 2>this moment, but both brilliant, brilliant men and who had

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<v Speaker 2>a really tight relationship with Johnny and we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>have his back through this whole thing. And I think

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<v Speaker 2>technically they did what no one bargained for. Was Marlon Brando,

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<v Speaker 2>this rogue menace force that called halfway through production the

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<v Speaker 2>last two days, we're going to be the snuff film

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<v Speaker 2>per seen. And he said, Johnny, I hear you gave

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<v Speaker 2>away my part? Said what you you know you that

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<v Speaker 2>that role is mine? This not filmmaker. You know I

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<v Speaker 2>have to play this role. And well, we don't have

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<v Speaker 2>any money for it. You know, we passed it already,

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<v Speaker 2>and if we let this actor go, you know, you'd

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<v Speaker 2>have to be paid Scales. I'll work for Scale. So

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<v Speaker 2>we're starting to think, okay, well, you know, Marlon Brando

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<v Speaker 2>working for Scale. This is pretty exciting and he brings

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<v Speaker 2>something great to the table, and he essentially was a

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<v Speaker 2>roadblock to momentum. He refused to say the lines on

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<v Speaker 2>the page. He wouldn't two script days on this set

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<v Speaker 2>and this downtown La you know it snuff Filmmaker's layer

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<v Speaker 2>turned into eleven days. He never read the lines that

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<v Speaker 2>set up the entire narrative that follows. So it was

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<v Speaker 2>it was awful, and he said, doesn't cut together. I'll

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<v Speaker 2>read it a script and I'll read anything you'd like.

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<v Speaker 2>Just let's let's do this. He's riffing on the nobility

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<v Speaker 2>of death and playing a harmonica and you know, doing

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<v Speaker 2>all kinds of shit in his wheelchair that you know

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<v Speaker 2>that he wrote into the script himself, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>he made a character, but it had like nothing to

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<v Speaker 2>do with the movie that followed. Really. Jeremy Thomas tells

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<v Speaker 2>us that we got into the can Film Festival without

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<v Speaker 2>anybody seeing the movie, and based on Jeremy's relationship with

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<v Speaker 2>that festival, which had been long lasting, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>he's one of the handful of in people there that

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<v Speaker 2>have that kind of had that kind of cachet, and

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<v Speaker 2>so we realized this isn't working. You know this, he

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<v Speaker 2>tried to cut around it, and you know it was

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<v Speaker 2>mystifying and moody but cryptic, and suddenly you were wondering

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<v Speaker 2>what the hell's going on, and he said he we

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<v Speaker 2>re rented the space, got Vilco and the production designer

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<v Speaker 2>on a plane coming back, and as they were in

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<v Speaker 2>the air, Marlon on a phone call says to Johnny,

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<v Speaker 2>it's not that I won't say those words, Johnny, I

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<v Speaker 2>can't say those words. I can't help you. So Johnny

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<v Speaker 2>has a decision to make that It didn't really seem

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<v Speaker 2>like he thought about it too hard, but he decided

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<v Speaker 2>he didn't want to be the first director in film

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<v Speaker 2>history to fire, recast, and reshoot Marlon Brando, and we

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<v Speaker 2>rolled with it, and at that point we had gone

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<v Speaker 2>over so Johnny was personally financing the overages, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it was very much his story to tell. And what

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<v Speaker 2>resulted is one of the threw stuff off of the

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<v Speaker 2>tracks early on in the story, and we don't know

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<v Speaker 2>really exactly what's going on. I think what happened in

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<v Speaker 2>Can was he got really his first bad reviews, really ever,

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<v Speaker 2>and they were some mean reviews and they are too harsh.

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<v Speaker 2>But I have a feeling that the fact that the

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<v Speaker 2>Film Critics screening, the screening for the Film Critics, which

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<v Speaker 2>is at seven am, after many of them had been

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<v Speaker 2>out very late, and the film broke during that projection,

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<v Speaker 2>and for seventeen minutes they had to sit around and

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<v Speaker 2>wait till the splicer was found, put together and rethread,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and get it going again. And I have

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<v Speaker 2>a feeling that contributed to the meanness or the edge

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<v Speaker 2>in the reviews. So as a result, it was distributed

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<v Speaker 2>everywhere but in America, which Johnny owned those rights personally

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<v Speaker 2>himself to distribute it, and he never chose to let

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<v Speaker 2>it be seen. You know. All he had to do

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<v Speaker 2>was to call that guy back and shoot that one

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<v Speaker 2>five page scene with him in the location that was

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<v Speaker 2>already reset and ready to go, and he chose not

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<v Speaker 2>to do that breaks my heart.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it really sounds like he chose Marlon Brando or

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<v Speaker 3>for the film itself, or.

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<v Speaker 2>Thought it would work. I don't know, he didn't I

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<v Speaker 2>guess fight for the Maybe he thought it was going

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<v Speaker 2>to work. I guess.

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<v Speaker 3>I have to say, what was the period of time,

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<v Speaker 3>And you don't have to be exact, but like after

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<v Speaker 3>the whole incident with disease versus Johnny Depp calling, what

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<v Speaker 3>was that period of time?

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<v Speaker 2>I don't remember exactly, but it was less than a year.

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<v Speaker 2>It was maybe like half the year, it was like

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<v Speaker 2>six months or something. I think really unfortunate missed opportunity

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<v Speaker 2>was a pitch from a fellow named Bill Caine, a

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<v Speaker 2>Jesuit priest who was a brilliant playwright, and I think

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<v Speaker 2>he was doing stuff at Touchtoone at the time. He

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<v Speaker 2>heard the story, read the script, and came back with

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<v Speaker 2>his own approach to the story that was a direct

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<v Speaker 2>christ allegory. It was so it was so moving. I

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<v Speaker 2>remember crying a lot, you know, during the pitch, even

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<v Speaker 2>on the phone. And Sahni at that time had questioned

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<v Speaker 2>himself with Danny and never got to hear any of

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<v Speaker 2>these great ideas. One of them is so unfortunate, but

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<v Speaker 2>because it never was embraced, but was to open the

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<v Speaker 2>film with him learning with our lead learning that he

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<v Speaker 2>has terminal cancer before he's offered all of this money,

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<v Speaker 2>so he knows he's going to die anyway, and so

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<v Speaker 2>all of that is taken off the table. That why

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<v Speaker 2>would you want to kill yourself? Stuff is you know,

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<v Speaker 2>a non issue, and Shahnny never got to hear that idea,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think it would have helped our connection with

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<v Speaker 2>the lead character.

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<v Speaker 3>Where did you guys shoot all this, like where are

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<v Speaker 3>these locations?

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<v Speaker 2>At Randsburg, California an abandoned mine that it was so

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<v Speaker 2>surreally perfect that we went on a three week location scout.

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<v Speaker 2>Our location scout was so dedicated. He was out every

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<v Speaker 2>day for something like I don't know, one hundred and

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<v Speaker 2>twenty days or something and came back only on the

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<v Speaker 2>day that his wife was delivering it. And the last

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<v Speaker 2>location that we looked at we were looking at all

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<v Speaker 2>of these dumps and re processing places in you know, Arizona,

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<v Speaker 2>Texas in kind of very arid environments, and the last

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<v Speaker 2>place we found was a place in Randsburg, and it

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<v Speaker 2>like everybody knew right away it was it was it.

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<v Speaker 3>What was kind of your experience working on this? It

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<v Speaker 3>sounds pretty stressful.

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<v Speaker 2>The stressful part was completion. Bond was bitch. I have

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<v Speaker 2>a feeling it always is, but maybe people are used

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<v Speaker 2>to that. Those hurdles and we had, you know, what

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<v Speaker 2>we thought was a start date and then people have

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<v Speaker 2>dedicated their schedules to the project and the who withhold

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<v Speaker 2>that document for as long as they can and you

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<v Speaker 2>have to spend like a lot of your own money,

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<v Speaker 2>like to keep it afloat, you know, until they're a

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<v Speaker 2>criteria or fulfilled. And that was very stressful, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>threading that needle. And then after that things went really,

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<v Speaker 2>really pretty smoothly. A signing star I thought was Iggy

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<v Speaker 2>Pop's score. Peter Gabriel courted Johnny very hard wrote one

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<v Speaker 2>of what for me is one of the best scores ever,

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<v Speaker 2>original scores and lastentation of Christ, and Johnny turned that

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<v Speaker 2>down in favor for Iggy, in deference to Iggy, and

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<v Speaker 2>he turned in something that was They spent a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of time on it. They budgeted a lot of time

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<v Speaker 2>and came up with something moving and unexpected in an

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<v Speaker 2>original sound and really impressed me. He channeled sort of

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<v Speaker 2>that last temptation of Christ's world music sound and quite beautiful.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I have nothing but like admiring things to

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<v Speaker 2>say about Johnny. He paid dearly for this project. He

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<v Speaker 2>worked hard, more days on this than any other one

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<v Speaker 2>in his life, I imagine, because you know, the free

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<v Speaker 2>production and the production and the post and the can

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<v Speaker 2>and all that, and you know he's usually he can

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<v Speaker 2>go in and out of a project quicker than that.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, finally interesting. I was talking on the episode about

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<v Speaker 3>the interviews that I saw from con where he was

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<v Speaker 3>just saying how difficult the shoot was and how tough

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<v Speaker 3>it is being a director. Did that come through on

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<v Speaker 3>the set?

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<v Speaker 2>He had this this thing where he wouldn't write shot

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<v Speaker 2>lists before the day shoot day, and he would I

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<v Speaker 2>think he made it a little harder on himself than

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<v Speaker 2>it had to be. But we had a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>time scheduled. It was like, I think it was like

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<v Speaker 2>a forty day shoot and it was I think we could.

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<v Speaker 2>We had a lot of time to create a really

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<v Speaker 2>vivid world in that in that environment, on that location,

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<v Speaker 2>and things went surprisingly smoothly, and there's such good vibes

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<v Speaker 2>with Bilko and Craik. We called him and you know

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<v Speaker 2>with Philko and Craika, he's so comfortable and they had

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of fun. It was, I thought, really smooth.

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<v Speaker 2>It might have been really stressful or hard for him

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<v Speaker 2>in ways that I didn't see, but filled with admiration for.

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<v Speaker 3>His Ultimately, how does this project affect you?

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<v Speaker 2>It was incredible education And you know, it's sort of

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<v Speaker 2>been around films forever but as far as I can remember,

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<v Speaker 2>but you know, first person having the opportunity to sort

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<v Speaker 2>of walk on the red carpet, you know, with a

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<v Speaker 2>film that you've had a lot to do with getting made,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was a great thrill and something that I

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<v Speaker 2>think is an incentive to try to relive education and

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<v Speaker 2>moving on to other projects that you love.

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<v Speaker 3>Do you think is there a chance that the film

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<v Speaker 3>could ever come out in the US?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, if Johnny ever changed his mind, I think

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<v Speaker 2>he would. I don't foresee that happening. An academic exercise

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<v Speaker 2>would be to cut out the Marlin shots and cut

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<v Speaker 2>in the casting shots of this guy who read for it.

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<v Speaker 2>And I never did that, but you know, and I

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<v Speaker 2>got the footage and all, but like that, that could

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<v Speaker 2>be a very telling exercise, you know, and how strong

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<v Speaker 2>the film could be without the Marlin intrusion. I've just

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<v Speaker 2>come to learn recently. He's done this with a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of other projects. See that was his sickness, and he

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<v Speaker 2>like fucked up every project that he got involved with

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<v Speaker 2>for a long period of time. And unfortunately, like Johnny

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<v Speaker 2>was a casualty of that. But he wanted me to

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<v Speaker 2>not intervene with Marlon, and he asked me to to

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<v Speaker 2>let it go, and I was deferential to him, or

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<v Speaker 2>that he had paid a great price to tell his story.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I would love sometime if we could talk about

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<v Speaker 3>the Aviator. That sounds like a fascinating story as well.

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<v Speaker 3>If you were up for it, I.

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<v Speaker 2>Think I'd rather let me all think about it.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, thank you so much for your time tonight, pleasure Man.

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<v Speaker 4>Jesus was way cool. Everybody liked Jesus. Everybody wanted to

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<v Speaker 4>hang out with him. Anything he wanted to do he did.

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<v Speaker 4>He turned water into wine, and if he wanted to,

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<v Speaker 4>he could have turned wheat into marijuana, or sugar into cocaine,

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<v Speaker 4>or vitamin pills into ampheticins. He walked on the water.

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<v Speaker 2>And swam on the land.

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<v Speaker 4>He would tell these stories and people would listen. He

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<v Speaker 4>was really cool. If you were blind or lame, you

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<v Speaker 4>just went to Jesus and he would put his hands

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<v Speaker 4>on you and you would be healed. That's so cool.

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<v Speaker 4>He could have played guitar better than Hendricks. He could

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<v Speaker 4>have told the future. He could have baked the most

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<v Speaker 4>delicious cake of the world. He could have scored more.

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<v Speaker 2>Goals than Huyne Redsfield.

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<v Speaker 4>He could have danced better than Barishnikov. Jesus could have

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<v Speaker 4>been funnier than any comedian.

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<v Speaker 3>You could think of.

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<v Speaker 4>Jesus was way cool. He told people to eat his

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<v Speaker 4>body and drink his blood. That's so cool. Jesus was

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<v Speaker 4>so cool. But then some people got jealous of how

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<v Speaker 4>clear he was, so they killed him. But then he

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<v Speaker 4>rose from the dead. He rose from the dead, danced around,

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<v Speaker 4>and went up to Heaven. I mean, that's so cool.

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<v Speaker 4>Jesus was way cool. No wonder there are so many

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<v Speaker 4>Christians