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See website for details. 48 00:02:06.319 --> 00:02:18.840 Radian, you are now listening to True Murder the most 49 00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:22.240 shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that 50 00:02:22.319 --> 00:02:28.520 have written about them. Gasey Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK 51 00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:33.240 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 52 00:02:33.360 --> 00:02:37.520 and infamous killers in true crime history True Murder with 53 00:02:37.560 --> 00:02:52.000 your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good evening. 54 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:56.479 It's hard to imagine that anyone in the healthcare industry 55 00:02:56.560 --> 00:03:00.240 could have murder on his or her mind, but some do. 56 00:03:01.199 --> 00:03:05.319 The nineteen cases in this book range across Europe, US 57 00:03:05.319 --> 00:03:11.159 and Australia, documenting horrifying and sinister betrayals of trust. From 58 00:03:11.159 --> 00:03:15.879 Harold Shipman, Britain's most worst serial killer who murdered over 59 00:03:15.919 --> 00:03:19.319 two hundred patients, to Roger Dean, the Sydney nurse who 60 00:03:19.319 --> 00:03:22.319 in twenty eleven set fire to the nursing home where 61 00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:26.280 he was working, killing eleven patients. These stories will make 62 00:03:26.360 --> 00:03:29.800 you wary and leave you shaking your head in horror. 63 00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:33.599 The book that we're featuring this evening is Angels of Death, 64 00:03:34.159 --> 00:03:38.000 disturbing real life cases of nurses and doctors that kill, 65 00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:42.840 with my special guest, journalist and author Emily Webb. Welcome 66 00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:45.120 back to the program, and thank you very very much 67 00:03:45.159 --> 00:03:49.560 for greeting this interview, Emily Webb, thanks. 68 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:51.080 For having me, Dan, it's really exciting. 69 00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:57.560 Well, thank you, and Angels of Death some crazy stuff. 70 00:03:57.639 --> 00:04:01.319 Next time you're heading into a hospital or visiting somebody 71 00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:05.319 in the hospital. So this is really getting close to home, 72 00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:10.039 I think. In another I talked with Charles Graber. What's 73 00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:13.080 interesting about your book is that you talk about Charles Cullen. 74 00:04:13.199 --> 00:04:16.959 You call him Satan's Son, and the last episode of 75 00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:21.079 December was Charles Graber, and he wrote a book called 76 00:04:21.079 --> 00:04:24.079 The Good Nurse about Charles Cullen and very very interesting 77 00:04:25.439 --> 00:04:28.120 variant of the serial killer that we all have come 78 00:04:28.160 --> 00:04:32.279 to know. Again, it's a customary question, but of all 79 00:04:32.360 --> 00:04:36.959 the kinds of stories that you could handle in true crime, 80 00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:41.360 why did you want to do a book about these 81 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:43.959 types of killers in Angels of Death. 82 00:04:45.959 --> 00:04:49.399 Well, it's funny. It wasn't something that I consciously set 83 00:04:49.399 --> 00:04:52.839 out to do, but when I first met with the 84 00:04:52.920 --> 00:04:57.639 publisher who has since published these books, I had an idea. 85 00:04:57.800 --> 00:05:00.160 They asked me for some ideas, and I was in 86 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:02.920 the UK for quite a number of years and I'd 87 00:05:02.959 --> 00:05:08.040 always known about the serial or the serial killer. Beverly Ailett, 88 00:05:08.040 --> 00:05:12.600 who was a children's nurse and she is probably one 89 00:05:12.639 --> 00:05:17.480 of the most notorious women in England. She often featured 90 00:05:17.560 --> 00:05:21.319 in the newspapers and she had killed some children in 91 00:05:21.439 --> 00:05:24.079 the early nineteen nineties when she was a nurse. They 92 00:05:24.120 --> 00:05:27.600 think that she had Munchausen's by proxy. That she's now 93 00:05:27.639 --> 00:05:33.920 in a secure psychiatric facility, one of England's hospitals for 94 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:37.079 the criminally insane, I guess. And I was thinking of 95 00:05:37.399 --> 00:05:40.000 her case, and then I thought, well, why don't I 96 00:05:40.040 --> 00:05:42.759 investigate whether there's enough cases for a book. And I 97 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:45.480 was actually quite surprised to see there really was a 98 00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:48.600 lot of cases of healthcare serial killing. I think the 99 00:05:48.680 --> 00:05:52.240 term is doctors and nurses. I was thinking of nurses, 100 00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:55.360 and then I thought, well, I'll incorporate doctors and other 101 00:05:55.439 --> 00:05:57.759 related professionals. 102 00:05:57.160 --> 00:06:03.000 As well, all right, And you do have stories that 103 00:06:03.439 --> 00:06:06.639 spread from Europe, US, Australia and the US, and you 104 00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:09.079 do start off with Charles Colin, one of the more 105 00:06:09.800 --> 00:06:13.839 unknown killers, if that's the right term, like I said, 106 00:06:13.959 --> 00:06:16.839 was the subject of Charles Graver's book The Good Nurse 107 00:06:17.600 --> 00:06:20.160 In your next story in this and we're going to 108 00:06:20.360 --> 00:06:22.839 examine a few, just a few of the stories. But 109 00:06:23.279 --> 00:06:25.399 as soon as this. As soon as you open up 110 00:06:25.399 --> 00:06:28.360 this book, it's just chalk full of every single page 111 00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:34.920 really condensed stories of this new type of horror. In 112 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:37.639 the second story that you have, you talk about Roger 113 00:06:37.959 --> 00:06:43.040 Dean from Sydney, so in Australia, he's thirty five years old, 114 00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:46.839 and his murder weapon is a little different, or his 115 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:49.560 murder one of his murder weapons a little different. And 116 00:06:49.680 --> 00:06:52.519 we're talking about in twenty and eleven when he was 117 00:06:53.079 --> 00:06:59.720 finally noticed. So let's talk about Roger Dean from Sydney 118 00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:01.720 nursing home that he was working at. 119 00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:06.680 Yeah. Sure, seeing that certainly is one of the more 120 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:11.199 shocking cases of recent years in Australia. Rogerdine was a nurse, 121 00:07:11.720 --> 00:07:14.839 and so over in Australia. I'm not sure what it's 122 00:07:14.879 --> 00:07:17.759 like in Canada or North America, but there's two different 123 00:07:17.800 --> 00:07:20.160 types of nurses. You've got a registered nurse so that 124 00:07:20.199 --> 00:07:24.439 requires a university degree now, and you've got an enrolled nurse, 125 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:28.279 which a lot of enrolled nurses work at age care homes. 126 00:07:28.279 --> 00:07:30.680 But Roger Deine was a registered nurse so he could 127 00:07:31.319 --> 00:07:36.680 give out the I guess the more serious medications that 128 00:07:36.879 --> 00:07:40.319 have to be locked away. So he worked in a 129 00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:42.839 nursing home. He was actually studying to be a lawyer 130 00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:46.959 in his spare time, so he was looking to do 131 00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:50.560 a career change. But what Roger Deine did was he 132 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:55.959 caused a fire that ended up completely ripping through this 133 00:07:56.199 --> 00:07:58.800 age care home in a Sydney suburb and a lot 134 00:07:58.839 --> 00:08:02.040 of people died. So whether or not he intended to 135 00:08:02.120 --> 00:08:05.000 do that, what happened once he ended up, you know, 136 00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:06.040 a math murderer. 137 00:08:08.360 --> 00:08:11.920 Now it's interesting his background too. He had worked ten 138 00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:14.240 years in facility you say he worked about ten years 139 00:08:14.240 --> 00:08:17.240 in facilities in New South Wales. He was originally born 140 00:08:17.240 --> 00:08:19.720 in Vietnam and he moved to Australia and then he 141 00:08:19.800 --> 00:08:22.759 was working at this nursing home. And then they have 142 00:08:22.879 --> 00:08:26.480 something called CCTV footage. So tell us what that is. 143 00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:28.720 I know it's a video footage, but tell us what 144 00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:33.720 CCTV footage because it's very crucial in at trial with 145 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:35.600 Roger Deane. 146 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:37.360 Sure. 147 00:08:37.399 --> 00:08:43.000 So CCTV footage is basically the facility security cameras that 148 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:48.360 pick up movements within the facility and around the facility. 149 00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:53.600 So the CCTV footage was really crucial because what happened 150 00:08:53.759 --> 00:08:59.919 was Roger Deane set the fire out to distract from 151 00:09:00.679 --> 00:09:03.960 an investigation that was going to happen had started to 152 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:07.639 happen about the theft of a certain type of drugs 153 00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:11.519 from opiate drugs and dome tablets, basically tablets that you 154 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:16.000 painkillers but are highly addictive. So he was addicted to 155 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:18.000 those drugs, He was using those drugs and he was 156 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:21.759 stealing them from the locked cabinet in the nursing home, 157 00:09:21.879 --> 00:09:28.240 so it's obviously illegal. What happened was this had been detected, 158 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:31.639 so at handover on the shift the day before the 159 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:34.919 nursing home fire, it was mentioned at handover, which is 160 00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:38.159 where the nurse on one particular shift hands over the 161 00:09:38.200 --> 00:09:41.480 notes to the next nurses to let them know what's happening. 162 00:09:41.720 --> 00:09:44.000 So I've mentioned that this was detected and the police 163 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:47.720 were coming. So the police came that night and had 164 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:50.440 started to ask questions, but they got diverted on a 165 00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:53.799 different matter. It was a final family violence matter that 166 00:09:53.919 --> 00:09:58.519 was far more pressing at the time. So Roger Dean 167 00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:00.600 he knew he was in trouble. He knew he was 168 00:10:00.639 --> 00:10:03.600 going to get found out. If he was found out, 169 00:10:03.639 --> 00:10:05.720 that means the end of his nursing career. But also 170 00:10:06.559 --> 00:10:09.440 he would not be able to become a lawyer, and 171 00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:13.559 there was CCTV footage of showing him over previous times 172 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:16.679 going in and out of that. I guess it was 173 00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:20.279 a locked room where you go to get the drugs, 174 00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:24.759 so that's where the CCTV comes in. So basically what 175 00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:29.360 happened is that he knew that he was going to 176 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:33.559 get caught, and so he decided to light fire to 177 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:36.840 divevote attension from that. So, I guess in a terrible 178 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:38.679 way to put it, but to take the heat off 179 00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:41.399 himself and put a bit more focus on maybe, well 180 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:44.120 why did this fire start? You know, what's happened, and 181 00:10:44.159 --> 00:10:48.200 so maybe his crime would go unnoticed. But it ended 182 00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:49.759 up a lot worse than he intended. 183 00:10:51.960 --> 00:10:58.960 Yes, certainly he knew that the CCTV cameras were everywhere, 184 00:10:59.000 --> 00:11:02.120 but there wasn't a called the A two wing, and 185 00:11:02.120 --> 00:11:06.279 there were a couple women both named Dorothy, sleeping there 186 00:11:06.360 --> 00:11:10.440 and another woman named Helen Perry. So tell us what 187 00:11:10.960 --> 00:11:14.080 Helen Perry said the dean, and tell us about this 188 00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:17.960 whole again. You bring us the reader right into this. 189 00:11:18.080 --> 00:11:24.480 In terms of these two elderly women immobile, you said, 190 00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:27.279 both of them and another woman named Helen Perry, who 191 00:11:27.320 --> 00:11:29.320 was very conscious of what was going on. So tell 192 00:11:29.360 --> 00:11:33.720 us with him, knowing that the CTD the video cameras 193 00:11:33.720 --> 00:11:35.360 were not in the A two wing, what did he 194 00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:38.519 do and tell us about the two Dorothys and Helen Perry. 195 00:11:40.559 --> 00:11:44.399 Well, there was no ctch B in this wing, so 196 00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:46.919 he knew that there was not going to be any detection. 197 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:52.080 And these two ladies, the two Dorothys, were in their beds, 198 00:11:52.120 --> 00:11:55.159 so asleep in their beds, and these women were immobile, 199 00:11:55.279 --> 00:11:58.559 so they weren't able to get in and out of 200 00:11:58.600 --> 00:12:02.600 their rooms or out of their beds without assistance. He 201 00:12:03.159 --> 00:12:09.080 set a fire in an occupied bed of the room. 202 00:12:09.559 --> 00:12:13.840 And it's quite horrifying because knowing that these women were 203 00:12:13.879 --> 00:12:16.279 I mobile, I mean, what else would he expect to 204 00:12:16.360 --> 00:12:20.840 happen then, you know, potentially killing them. So this fire 205 00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:25.120 triggered the fire alarm. So everything's you know, it's hectic, 206 00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:29.799 like what the footage that I've seen on the news 207 00:12:29.799 --> 00:12:31.759 at the time and the photo that just shows a 208 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:35.399 complete confusion, all these elderly people just looking so shocked. 209 00:12:36.360 --> 00:12:38.600 You know, he's breathing up her artuses on and so 210 00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:43.919 Roger then pretended to try and you know, get these 211 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:49.639 women out of the room. He heard their cries. Actually, sorry, 212 00:12:49.639 --> 00:12:53.120 a woman called Helen Perry had said to Roger Dean, 213 00:12:53.159 --> 00:12:55.919 I'm trying to get my remember the whole story here. 214 00:12:56.480 --> 00:13:00.759 He stopped to help her out, to leave her. So 215 00:13:00.799 --> 00:13:03.120 the two Dorothys were in their room. You know, they 216 00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:05.440 may have been asleep, they may have been screaming for help. 217 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:09.279 Then he heard this lady Helen Perry calling for help, 218 00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:11.919 and she also really wanted him to try and help 219 00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:16.799 save the two Dorothys. The the fire had taken hold 220 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:18.919 in that room and there really was no chance that 221 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:21.559 they would have been able to get out by themselves. 222 00:13:21.600 --> 00:13:24.360 And he had told this lady Helen not to worry. 223 00:13:24.759 --> 00:13:29.159 People were on their way to help them. And they, 224 00:13:29.399 --> 00:13:32.399 you know, these women, you know, were not able to 225 00:13:32.399 --> 00:13:37.320 be saved. So this lady, missus Perry, Helen Perry, she survived, 226 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:42.080 and she spoke to newspapers afterwards and had said that, 227 00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:45.000 you know, the scene of a war zone. There were 228 00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:48.799 people everywhere, and she was quite distressed that she tried 229 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:51.120 to save her friends and they weren't able to be saved. 230 00:13:51.399 --> 00:13:54.120 And I think that went a long way to showing 231 00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:58.039 the intent behind Roger Dene's actions. Even though he may 232 00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:01.919 not have intended to harm that many people, it was 233 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:03.639 quite calculating in what he did. 234 00:14:06.159 --> 00:14:09.039 Yeah, he sounds pretty guilty at this point. Never mind 235 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:12.879 the rest of this story. Now, this is this is 236 00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:16.519 unbelievable story, really, and in that he tries three times 237 00:14:16.519 --> 00:14:19.919 to re enter this burning building that he's set a flame, 238 00:14:20.679 --> 00:14:23.840 and on the third time he said to he wanted 239 00:14:23.879 --> 00:14:27.679 to retrieve the drug record books. And so what happened, 240 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:30.120 unbelievably the firefighters did what. 241 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:36.360 Well, actually, I guess in the whole flurry of activity 242 00:14:36.519 --> 00:14:40.080 and the confusion, he was able to get into the 243 00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:44.200 room because the firefighters couldn't actually open the room themselves, 244 00:14:44.200 --> 00:14:49.159 so having difficulty for whatever reason. And Dean was he 245 00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:52.159 was hanging around, you know, persistently saying, look, I've got 246 00:14:52.200 --> 00:14:54.120 to get in there. I've got to get these books. 247 00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:57.480 We need them. Well he needed them because they were 248 00:14:57.519 --> 00:15:02.639 incriminating to himself. Why he wanted to get them. Then 249 00:15:02.879 --> 00:15:06.399 they actually asked Roger den if he could help them, 250 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:12.639 you know, open the door, and he did and then 251 00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:15.519 removed the drug walls from the cabinet and he put 252 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:19.120 it in a statuel that he had and he I 253 00:15:19.159 --> 00:15:21.360 guess they'd wanted him to stay around because he was 254 00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:24.440 a staff member, but he actually lived quite nearby, and 255 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:27.000 he kept saying to them, I'm an asthmatic, I need 256 00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:29.879 my ventelin, I need to go home. Well, the reason 257 00:15:29.960 --> 00:15:34.320 he wanted to go home, according to the court documents, 258 00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:37.320 was that he wanted to destroy those drug books, get 259 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:38.600 rid of them. 260 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:40.200 So and. 261 00:15:41.720 --> 00:15:44.639 What happened was at the time of the publicity about it, 262 00:15:44.679 --> 00:15:47.519 as he was leaving to go to his home, there 263 00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:51.440 were camera crews everywhere. It was a massive story, and 264 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:54.919 a news reporter stopped him on his way, and you know, 265 00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:58.279 as journalists do, we asked people if they can give us, 266 00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:01.080 you know, any idea of what's happened. We stopped people 267 00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:05.919 if they'd been involved, and he actually said to this reporter, 268 00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:09.559 you know, I'm Roger. I'm one of the nurses and 269 00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:11.759 there was a fire and I just quickly did what 270 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:15.440 I can got everyone out and the smokey's just overwhelming, 271 00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:17.480 but you know, we've got a lot of people out, 272 00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:21.320 so that's the main thing. So for a while he 273 00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:26.320 was portrayed as, you know, someone who had helped, and 274 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:30.639 that footage became quite disturbing. Later on as the real story. 275 00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:36.600 Unfolded again, what's fascinating element to this story is that 276 00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:41.720 how they get this information and if there was a loyalty. 277 00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:45.679 He's living with his ex boyfriend and so this man's 278 00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:48.200 name was Dean French. So he ran home trying to 279 00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:51.799 rip up these books and put them in a dumpster 280 00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:55.000 at the back of his ex boyfriend's business. And that's 281 00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:59.759 how they knew about this. And apparently there was a 282 00:16:59.799 --> 00:17:04.640 vig that showed that. Well, there was also a video 283 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:07.240 that showed Dean entering the rooms, so that was a 284 00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:10.279 timeline fit for the fire what you were talking about 285 00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:14.519 at the at the trial. But tell us tell us 286 00:17:14.519 --> 00:17:18.839 a little bit more how Dean French got involved because 287 00:17:18.839 --> 00:17:21.480 apparently they weren't going to charge him, So how did 288 00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:23.440 how did it get to the point where he gave 289 00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:26.680 testimony against his person he was intimately involved with for 290 00:17:26.839 --> 00:17:27.839 a fair amount of time. 291 00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:32.880 It's going to have to rewind my brain, my brain 292 00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:36.240 a bit to remember that. Actually what I do know 293 00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:38.519 what I believe. I'm just I've got my book in 294 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:41.079 front of me and I'm just trying to remember what 295 00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:44.440 actually happened. Actually, you might need to refresh my memory. 296 00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:47.599 I'm sorry, Dan, I'm having a complete blank. I do 297 00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:51.680 believe though, that he was involved in disposing helping dispose 298 00:17:51.720 --> 00:17:57.519 of the books and for his evidence on his ex lover, 299 00:17:57.559 --> 00:18:00.319 and they weren't together at the time. They were co 300 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:03.559 habiting but not really in a committed relationship. I believe 301 00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:05.519 that the police were going to let him off, but 302 00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:08.000 you might have it more fresh in your memory because 303 00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:08.759 you've just read it. 304 00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:12.759 No, that's what I was getting at that he didn't 305 00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:16.559 just come forward that there was some involvement there, so 306 00:18:16.599 --> 00:18:18.599 that that's how he got to the point where he 307 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:22.839 was actually testifying against his exual lover. Here with the 308 00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:27.440 interview too, was very interesting that at some point when 309 00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:31.039 he is interviewed, he starts talking about the reason why 310 00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:33.400 he did these set these fires, and so tell us 311 00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:36.839 about what you found in terms of his reasoning for 312 00:18:37.240 --> 00:18:39.160 these fires and who was to blame. 313 00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:45.400 So I just had a bit of cross cross sound there, Dan, 314 00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:47.000 So can you just repeat that question? 315 00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:51.480 I said basically that in an interview, is that it 316 00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:55.480 was interesting who he attributed or who he blamed for 317 00:18:55.559 --> 00:18:59.000 the fires themselves, and he spoke about who was to blame, 318 00:18:59.400 --> 00:19:00.960 and a little bit about that so tell us a 319 00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:03.720 little bit about who he blamed for these fires and 320 00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:07.640 how he spoke of his participation in those fires. 321 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:13.799 Sure, well, the police found out fairly quickly on the 322 00:19:13.880 --> 00:19:17.480 day of the fire that he was responsible, So by 323 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:20.039 that night they were pretty sure they knew who it was, 324 00:19:20.119 --> 00:19:26.160 just for various reasons, and they had the CCTV footage. 325 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:28.720 And also there were two other nurses on judy that 326 00:19:28.839 --> 00:19:30.839 night that said that Roger Dean had told them to 327 00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:34.319 both take their breaks at exactly the same time, which 328 00:19:34.359 --> 00:19:37.400 is not protocol. So Roger Deane would have been, I 329 00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:40.240 guess the nurse in charge at that time because he 330 00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:43.599 was a more a registered nurse, and maybe the other 331 00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:47.079 nurses were enrolled nurses, so it would not be standard 332 00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:49.599 practice to say both of you go on your break. 333 00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:51.759 But he did that so he could go and do 334 00:19:51.880 --> 00:19:54.640 what he did, which was light the fire. So he 335 00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:58.079 was arrested and in the recorded interview with detectives he 336 00:19:58.359 --> 00:20:01.039 seemed to be calm and he seemed to give them 337 00:20:01.079 --> 00:20:04.559 pretty frank answers. But he actually told the police that 338 00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:08.359 he felt like Satan had possessed him and was telling 339 00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:12.759 him what to do. He you know, I'm not sure 340 00:20:12.759 --> 00:20:14.680 if the police believed him at that point or not, 341 00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:17.000 if they thought maybe that was a way he was 342 00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:21.839 trying to get them to think that he was mentally unwell. 343 00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:24.240 I mean, he was a drug addict. He was addicted 344 00:20:24.279 --> 00:20:27.480 to the opiates that he was stealing. But he said 345 00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:30.640 to them that he thought that Satan told him that 346 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:32.759 it's the right thing to do, and he took her 347 00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:35.119 to the police. I know you won't believe it, but 348 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:36.039 that's what happened. 349 00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:42.599 Now he was sentenced life no parole. But what's interesting 350 00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:45.440 is that you have in twenty fourteen as a coronial, 351 00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:51.160 a coronial inquest into the fires, and they found that 352 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:55.279 there was questionable work history, substance abuse, and his references 353 00:20:55.319 --> 00:20:59.880 were not checked and he had that's right, really unnecessary 354 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:03.759 access to drugs at that nursery home. Now in you 355 00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:09.160 include just in the same chapter nineteen seventy six case 356 00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:13.240 in Chicago with Denise Watson, and she was charged with 357 00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:16.880 a similar arson and murder of twenty three if she 358 00:21:16.920 --> 00:21:19.880 admitted to sixty nine counts, but she was the murder 359 00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:22.559 of twenty three. Tell us just a little bit about 360 00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:26.759 that and why you included that case of Denise Watson 361 00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:27.599 from Chicago. 362 00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:32.680 Yeah, definitely. I actually I literally stumbled across his case 363 00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:36.160 when I was researching nursing home fliers and the thing 364 00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:40.119 I do love about writing and researching through crime as 365 00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:43.000 you just come across all these different things. And I 366 00:21:43.079 --> 00:21:46.359 included it because I thought it was interesting in terms of, 367 00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:49.960 you know, are the cases that related to people who 368 00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:53.640 did these kind of crimes. But I was quite amazed 369 00:21:53.799 --> 00:21:59.279 with this case because so Denise. Denise was a twenty 370 00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:02.160 one year old nurse assistant and housekeeper, so I'm guessing 371 00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:05.960 she probably wasn't really doing too much nursing duties, more 372 00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:08.400 looking after people, maybe feeding them. And she worked in 373 00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:13.880 this nursing home in Chicago, and she started a fire 374 00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:18.440 that killed twenty three people, and she admitted that she 375 00:22:18.519 --> 00:22:20.519 did it. That she dropped a match into a pile 376 00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:23.240 of clothes that was in a patient like a little locker, 377 00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:26.799 like a little cupboard that they having in the hospital. 378 00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:31.960 And at the time, you know, all the residents were frail, 379 00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:35.480 they weren't able to move around properly. And there were 380 00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:38.480 a number of residents to her in the nursing home 381 00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:42.200 chapel at the time celebrating mass and they were obviously 382 00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:44.559 if you can imagine the scene and the fact that 383 00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:48.240 most deaths from fires come from smokinghalation, it would have 384 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:52.480 been absolute chaos. So these people were really struggling to evacuate, 385 00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:55.640 and most of the deaths from that nursing home flyer 386 00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:59.000 came from shock and smoking relation. And also back in 387 00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:05.279 the seventies, they probably weren't as great health and safety measures. 388 00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:08.079 It didn't have a sprinkler system, so that was something 389 00:23:08.119 --> 00:23:12.119 that was highlighted after this incident. But what was interesting 390 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:15.680 is once the police started to look into this incident, 391 00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:18.920 they found that this Denise Watson actually had a bit 392 00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:22.440 of a history of pyromania. In fact, one officer in 393 00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:25.759 a newspaper Artiquai found said she had a bad history 394 00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:30.519 of pyromania, and she actually had been one of the 395 00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:34.559 flymen who was involved as an art and investigator recognized 396 00:23:34.599 --> 00:23:38.319 her name and he'd actually had dealings with her before 397 00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:42.559 she had there'd been a fire at the house where 398 00:23:42.599 --> 00:23:45.680 she lived in which was declared art and by investigators. 399 00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:48.519 That was three years before, in nineteen seventy three, and 400 00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:51.880 then in nineteen seventy four there are actually three small 401 00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:56.160