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<v Speaker 1>How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with

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<v Speaker 1>patron mug. Sign up now at patreon dot dot NetRocks

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<v Speaker 1>dot com. Hey, and welcome back to dot net rocks.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Carl Franklin, I'm Richard Campbell, and Jason Bacha is

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<v Speaker 1>here with us. We're gonna be talking to him in

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<v Speaker 1>a minute. And of course, Jason, while we're doing the intro.

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<v Speaker 1>You can feel free to jump in at any time.

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<v Speaker 1>But we got a few things to do first. Should

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<v Speaker 1>we talk about nineteen eighty eight and what happened?

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<v Speaker 2>Do the history thing? Huh?

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<v Speaker 1>The history thing?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, we'll try and keep it brief. But what do

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<v Speaker 2>you got?

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<v Speaker 1>Soviet Union began significant economic restructre churing you might have

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<v Speaker 1>remembered Peristroika Peristroika and started to break apart and allowed

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<v Speaker 1>some free travel.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the beginning of the end, beginning of the end.

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<v Speaker 1>YEP. George H. W. Bush was elected President of the

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<v Speaker 1>United States defeating Michael Ducacas. I ran air flight six

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<v Speaker 1>fifty five the USS Vincennes Vincennis mistakenly shot down. I

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<v Speaker 1>ran air flight sixty five, six fifty five, killing all

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<v Speaker 1>two hundred ninety people on board. At least that's what

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<v Speaker 1>my report says. Did they determine that it was an accident?

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<v Speaker 2>Yep, yeah, okay, it was yeah, you know operator air Ultimately,

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<v Speaker 2>let's see.

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<v Speaker 1>The lockerby bombing, of course, was a kind of historic

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<v Speaker 1>thing that happened a lot of flight stuff. Here a

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<v Speaker 1>hailstorm in Nepal at a soccer match and Katmandu caused

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<v Speaker 1>a stampede, killing at least seventy people.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow.

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<v Speaker 1>We had the nineteen eighty eight Winter Olympics in Calgary, Canada.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, interested the right of me.

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<v Speaker 1>And this Olympics in Seoul, South Korea.

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<v Speaker 3>That's back when they still had them in four year intervals.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, all the same years. Yeah, I mean, then we

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<v Speaker 2>figured out to offset them because you make more revenue

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<v Speaker 2>that way.

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<v Speaker 1>Andy Gibb died that year. And let's talk about some movies, right.

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<v Speaker 2>M hm, So you like your movie collection in the eighties.

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<v Speaker 2>This just shows our bias, I think.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, die Hard you know, yeah, die Hard is on

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<v Speaker 1>that list.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Best Christmas movie ever?

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, kaym who framed Roger Rabbit was the number one

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<v Speaker 1>grossing movie of nineteen eighty eight. Rain Man Coming to America.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh man, I saw Eddie. I can't even tell you

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<v Speaker 2>how many times I've seen that movie.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Yeah, Rambo, three big, three men in a baby beetlejuice, cocktail,

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<v Speaker 1>and my favorite, a fish called Wanda. The car, sing

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<v Speaker 1>It Sing It the Car.

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<v Speaker 3>The best scene in that movie he was when he

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<v Speaker 3>was going to get run over by a steamroller or whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>That was right. Yeah, the whole trying to get the

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<v Speaker 2>old lady and keep hitting the dogs. Like, there's so

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<v Speaker 2>many funny bits in that movie. That's hilarious. And do

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<v Speaker 2>you remember when they did the press tour and they

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<v Speaker 2>all agreed, all of the big you know, Kleine and

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<v Speaker 2>Clease and all these folks all agreed to say the

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<v Speaker 2>same thing, which was, I carried this movie. The others

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<v Speaker 2>are worthless, right, And so like every single interview, each

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<v Speaker 2>one of them said exactly. They they just sort of

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<v Speaker 2>blew up.

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<v Speaker 3>I had no idea about that.

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<v Speaker 2>That's great, It's just hysterical.

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<v Speaker 1>So one of the iconic scenes in that movie is

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<v Speaker 1>where Kevin Kleine is holding John Cleese by his legs,

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<v Speaker 1>dangling him outside of a window to get him to

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<v Speaker 1>apologize for calling him stupid.

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<v Speaker 2>Apologize.

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<v Speaker 1>And when Cleese was on the tour promoting movie, he

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<v Speaker 1>was on Letterman and he said, he said, well, the

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<v Speaker 1>whole apology thing is Britain's just, you know, they apologize

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<v Speaker 1>for everything. You know, you're in America and you're at

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<v Speaker 1>the dinner table. It's like a saw in Britain's are like,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry. So he was poking fun at BRIT's in

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<v Speaker 1>their apologety ways.

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<v Speaker 2>That's so funny. All right, what do you got, Richard?

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<v Speaker 2>We'll start space. Of course, the return of the Shuttle

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<v Speaker 2>after the Challenger disaster in January of eighty six ers

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<v Speaker 2>now in nineteen eighty eight, so it's September twenty ninth.

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<v Speaker 2>Discovery is return to flight, deploying the third of the

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<v Speaker 2>TDR satellites. Use the satellites to allow the Shuttle be

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<v Speaker 2>to continue his communication and that was the third and

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<v Speaker 2>last needed now though the member replacements in there. And

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<v Speaker 2>then later that later Atlantis will fly one of the

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<v Speaker 2>last military payloads to Shuttle. Well or Fly, which is

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<v Speaker 2>one of the Lacross satellites, which should be its own show.

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<v Speaker 2>So we're not gonna talk about that, okay.

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<v Speaker 3>Because they had to take a two year break in

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<v Speaker 3>between Challenger.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>From Challengers Yeah and last show in eighty seven, I

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<v Speaker 2>talked about the Rogers Commission and just the complete failure

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<v Speaker 2>of NASA to be able to change their culture. They

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<v Speaker 2>just fixed the tech stuff, but also just committed to

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<v Speaker 2>the reality that they would never fly that many shuttles,

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<v Speaker 2>and they never would again. Yeah, the shuttle was supposed

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<v Speaker 2>to be an airliner. It simply wasn't, which that argument

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<v Speaker 2>is the reason we even have the geek outs. Carls,

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<v Speaker 2>you told me we should record that, and I said

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<v Speaker 2>that was stupid, and you said, but I was wrong,

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<v Speaker 2>Clearly I was wrong.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I don't remember where we were, but we were

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<v Speaker 1>having scotch after a conference somewhere.

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<v Speaker 2>It was when Atlantis landed for the last time at

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<v Speaker 2>twenty eleven. That's why I was raging.

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<v Speaker 1>You were brain dropping. I mean, it was just like NonStop,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm like, you know, this would just be a

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<v Speaker 1>great show.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>The whole history behind the Space Shuttle program is just fascinating.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but also terrible. Yes, it cost a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>lives and money. And I remember who was it, Dan,

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<v Speaker 2>the old NASA administrator, saying, if we had not done shuttles,

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<v Speaker 2>we'd stuck with Saturn. We would have done six missions

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<v Speaker 2>a year, including two to the Moon every year the

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<v Speaker 2>entire time, for the same amount of money. Yeah, presumably

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<v Speaker 2>it would have improved things, but you know they always

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<v Speaker 2>argument is it didn't spend enough on shuttle to make

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<v Speaker 2>it as good as it needed to be. They just

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<v Speaker 2>limped it over the line and it limped the whole time.

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<v Speaker 2>Speaking of shuttles, in nineteen eighty eight, we have the

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<v Speaker 2>second flight of the Energy A booster by the Soviet Union,

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<v Speaker 2>the only flight of the Burran the Russian shuttle the

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<v Speaker 2>Soviet Union trying to keep up with the Americans, arguably

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<v Speaker 2>a superior shuttle. It was flown unmanned. All of the

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<v Speaker 2>engines were actually on the Energy A boosters, so it

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<v Speaker 2>didn't have to carry that weight into space, did need

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<v Speaker 2>the external tank. I didn't do any of those things,

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<v Speaker 2>but it was it was a very capable machine. It's

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<v Speaker 2>terrible that they built three of them, flew one of them,

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<v Speaker 2>and then they sat in hangars until those hangars clopped

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<v Speaker 2>around them. So that's the end of that. And Energy

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<v Speaker 2>it would never fly again. An Energy actually had a

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<v Speaker 2>design again, this could be a whole show to have

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<v Speaker 2>recoverable flyback boosters and things like. They really did pursue

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<v Speaker 2>all the things that Shuttle could have had that never

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<v Speaker 2>actually happened. Other than that, you know, nineteen eighty is

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<v Speaker 2>a quiet year for space. The Soviet Union's running out

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<v Speaker 2>of money, so they don't fly. A whole bunch of

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<v Speaker 2>the Americans are just getting back on their feet again.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's all I got to say about that. But

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<v Speaker 2>on the computing side, let's go.

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<v Speaker 1>For a ride. Come some good stuff, some good.

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<v Speaker 2>Stuff, right, I got to lead off with the next.

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<v Speaker 2>So Steve Jobs, who've been forced out of Apple in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty five, has now founded a company called Next.

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<v Speaker 2>He builds the most outrageous computer ever, the Next Cube,

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<v Speaker 2>which actually has three Motorola processes and an eight megs

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<v Speaker 2>a RAM in nineteen eighty eight, eard of yeah, sixty

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<v Speaker 2>five hundred dollars US in nine.

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<v Speaker 1>I can't remember where I saw it, but I saw

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<v Speaker 1>it and I used it, and I.

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<v Speaker 2>Was well blown away. To be clear, this is the

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<v Speaker 2>machine that Tim berners Lee will invent the World Wide

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<v Speaker 2>Web with. Right, His next cube is insern behind glass

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<v Speaker 2>and it's still got the sticker on it says do

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<v Speaker 2>not turn off server. For the first web server and

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<v Speaker 2>web browser were on that machine. It's great. Also, that's

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<v Speaker 2>when Next licenses objective C. That will come back to

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<v Speaker 2>haunt us all for a couple of decades.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you for expressing it that way.

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<v Speaker 1>That haunt is right. What was a Rory Bleise's comment

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<v Speaker 1>about objective C programm Stockholm syndrome?

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<v Speaker 2>And of course we don't know it in nineteen eighty eight,

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<v Speaker 2>but eight years later in ninety six, Apple will acquire

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<v Speaker 2>Next and get Jobs back and so forth. Also related

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<v Speaker 2>to Apple.

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<v Speaker 3>There's one project that I did real quick on objective

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<v Speaker 3>C and that was enough.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I oh man, terrible. Well, you know then it

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<v Speaker 2>was always supposed to be a internal language, right, Jobs

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<v Speaker 2>had never intended us to write directly to the iPhone

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<v Speaker 2>at all. Those are all internal tools. But when we

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<v Speaker 2>jail broke the phone, he had to do something, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's when he came up with a store and released

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<v Speaker 2>all those internal tools. Is why they were so terrible,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and admittedly like I'm not a big Swift fan,

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<v Speaker 2>but objectively, no pun intended, Swift is a pretty damn

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<v Speaker 2>good language. That's what it should have been. Yeah. Apple,

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<v Speaker 2>same year nineteen eighty eight files the copyright infringement lawsuit

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<v Speaker 2>against Microsoft for the look and feel of Windows two

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<v Speaker 2>against the Mac os. This is the beginning of that,

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<v Speaker 2>and it won't be settled till the nineteen eighty five.

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<v Speaker 2>The only thing that will take longer is Apple acquiring next,

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<v Speaker 2>but not by much.

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<v Speaker 1>I wrote a program that if Windows equals Mac call FTC.

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<v Speaker 2>Ninety eight, the first release of Microsoft Office, the bundling

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<v Speaker 2>of Word and Excel and PowerPoint and eventually Access and others.

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<v Speaker 3>That was the first year nineteen eighty eight.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, first year was nineteen eighty eight, and it came

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<v Speaker 2>on three and a half inch fluppies, how many and

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<v Speaker 2>lots of of them? Yeah, twenty eight was always bad.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh then you'd only find that out the hard way.

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<v Speaker 2>Ask you you know that happened to me too.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know if it was twenty eight, but it

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<v Speaker 1>was one of the one of the ones at the end.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Uh, sound Blaster Creative Labs, Yes, eleven Voice FM synthesizer,

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<v Speaker 2>Texas Speech MIDI and a joystick port dun dun dum.

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<v Speaker 3>I got a sound blaster card in college and that

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<v Speaker 3>was Oh, that was so much fun.

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<v Speaker 2>So it was such a big deal.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, did you play any of the sample MIDI files?

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<v Speaker 3>I think I did. I think it also had if

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<v Speaker 3>I remember right, it had some kind of like a

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<v Speaker 3>voice pitch, yeah, the parrot. But yeah, so you could

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<v Speaker 3>you could change your voice. And of course in college

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<v Speaker 3>that was so much fun.

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<v Speaker 2>It's all you would do, doing well if you ran

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<v Speaker 2>the MIDI files. I wrote those, Oh you did. I

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<v Speaker 2>did well.

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<v Speaker 1>Once the MIDI pack came out from Voyetra, which was

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<v Speaker 1>in the nineties, and we'll get there. Yeah. Yeah, I

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<v Speaker 1>did the MIDI files that came with that, but they

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<v Speaker 1>would just work for hire, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>That was my job, the musician with the text chops,

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<v Speaker 2>so you make it work any got Yeah, MIDI was

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<v Speaker 2>part of that. A couple other hardware pieces, the IBM

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<v Speaker 2>AS four hundred sucked up a few years of my life.

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<v Speaker 2>The Helid Packard desk jet printer, the first commercial inkjet printer. Wow,

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<v Speaker 2>that's beginning the true demise of printing worldwide. Right, These days.

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<v Speaker 2>They are essentially disposable. Right, it's cheap printed by Ink

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<v Speaker 2>for it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I was gonna say. And the onset of the

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<v Speaker 1>Ink Subscription.

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<v Speaker 2>Revolution Intel three eighty six s X released that year

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<v Speaker 2>by Intel. Okay, let's talk Internet stuff. This is the

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<v Speaker 2>release of the specifications for S and MP NTP right

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<v Speaker 2>in the network Protocol and IRC Internet Relay Chat. I'll

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<v Speaker 2>begin in nineteen eighty eight.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh did you say NTP or n NTP NTP. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>that's different.

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<v Speaker 2>And NTK comes a little later. Yeah, And finally the

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<v Speaker 2>Morris Worm. So Robert Morris, twenty three year old father

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<v Speaker 2>works for the NSA, gets access to the Internet, writes

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<v Speaker 2>a non destructive propagating worm that is eventually found on

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<v Speaker 2>six thousand of the sixty thousand hosts currently connected to

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<v Speaker 2>the Internet nineteen eighty nikes ten percent of the Internet,

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<v Speaker 2>and he was the first person ever committed under the

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<v Speaker 2>Computer Fraud and Abuse sack. Wow, we're writing a propagator.

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<v Speaker 2>There you go, There you go. That's my story. I

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<v Speaker 2>could mention Sega Genesis, but eh, you know video. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>she's oh in the McChicken.

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<v Speaker 1>Don't forget the McChicken, No kidding, I think that was

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<v Speaker 1>the Larry Bird commercial, right, yeah, oh.

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<v Speaker 2>In lunchables plunchables do.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh wow, Well, the McChicken Larry Bird commercials are funny

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<v Speaker 1>because he kind of looks like a chicken and his

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<v Speaker 1>last name is bird Bird. Yeah, he was the perfect

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<v Speaker 1>guy to advertise the McChicken sandwich. All right, let's roll

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<v Speaker 1>the music for better note of framework.

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<v Speaker 2>Awesome. All right, man, what do you got?

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<v Speaker 1>Here's a trending repoll on GitHub. This is from Microsoft

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<v Speaker 1>Data Science for beginners.

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<v Speaker 2>We love it.

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<v Speaker 1>A curriculum Azure Cloud advocates at Microsoft are pleased to

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<v Speaker 1>offer a ten week twenty lesson curriculum all about data science.

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<v Speaker 1>Each lesson includes pre lesson in post lesson, quizzes, written

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<v Speaker 1>instructions to complete the lesson, a solution, and an assignment.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow.

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<v Speaker 1>Our project based pedagogy allows you to learn while building

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<v Speaker 1>a proven way for new skills to stick some good

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<v Speaker 1>names behind it too.

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<v Speaker 2>It's good stuff, nice well, and you know, speaks to

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<v Speaker 2>the fact that there's just so much training available out

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<v Speaker 2>there if you want to learn, take the time. And

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<v Speaker 2>the fact is that Microsoft knows that there are less

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<v Speaker 2>and less people interested in programming and data science at

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<v Speaker 2>least at youngins and so this is a good way

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<v Speaker 2>to you know, to invest in the future. Well then

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<v Speaker 2>demand you know, I'm going into high schools a few

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<v Speaker 2>times a year, and I keep pointing at like, this

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<v Speaker 2>is an area that as interesting as you if you're

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<v Speaker 2>into figuring stuff out and finding prout, you know, digging

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<v Speaker 2>through data, like, you'll find interesting things that can be

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<v Speaker 2>really valuable to companies. You can make a company a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of money and make yourself a lot of money

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<v Speaker 2>in the process. So, yes, still a fine area to follow.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's it's the non insane part of machine learning too, right, Yeah, cool.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's what I got. I was talking to us today,

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<v Speaker 1>Richard Campbell.

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<v Speaker 2>I went to the way back machine. My friend will

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<v Speaker 2>not literally, I just went out. You know, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>even know this. We have quite a few episodes of

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<v Speaker 2>dot net Rocks, but I know we were talking. We're

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<v Speaker 2>going to talk about a little about so our generation.

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<v Speaker 2>It made me think of Kathleen Dollar, who we need

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<v Speaker 2>to get back. I haven't talked to her in ages too.

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<v Speaker 2>And Kathleen did a show with us back in twenty fourteen.

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<v Speaker 2>This is episode nine thirty eight. It's only a thousand

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<v Speaker 2>shows so called co generation and Rosalind because that's the

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<v Speaker 2>year that Roslyn comes out. Yeah, and got a ton

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<v Speaker 2>of comments. I mean this was actually one of the

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<v Speaker 2>tour shows. We had Kathleen fly in to Saint Louis,

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<v Speaker 2>right and we did we did it in person in

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<v Speaker 2>front of hers, so we had a big audience, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>lots of fun with that. And get this, this is

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<v Speaker 2>a comment from twelve years ago. This is Stephen Morowski,

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<v Speaker 2>another past guest on the show and somebody who's frequented

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<v Speaker 2>running as it was a big DevOps believer, So you'll

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<v Speaker 2>love this. Comedy goes ah around the thirty seven minute

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<v Speaker 2>mark when the conversation detoured from PowerShell to script cs.

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<v Speaker 2>Your script cs. Oh yeah, yeah, I've used it to DevOps.

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<v Speaker 2>My it was great stuff at the time. Was that

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<v Speaker 2>was that? Nikhel?

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<v Speaker 1>I think that rings a bell?

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<v Speaker 2>Nick Heil, Yeah, Karthur Parthy, something like that. From PowerShell

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<v Speaker 2>to script CS to DevOps my hope sword. I love

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<v Speaker 2>that you talked about building a PowerShell API and possibly

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<v Speaker 2>co generating some of the plumbing. Then Kathleen implied the

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<v Speaker 2>DevOps is a job which is a person with a

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<v Speaker 2>split skill sheet and you didn't correct her Richard, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I would have. I should have, because DevOps is not

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<v Speaker 2>a job. Meanwhile, one of the true intents of DevOps

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<v Speaker 2>was never really talked about or identified, talking between the

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<v Speaker 2>teams and sharing ideas and concepts, yes, developers and operators

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<v Speaker 2>and stakeholders, and keeping everybody communication together. That being said,

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<v Speaker 2>the rest of the show is pretty awesome, so I'll

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<v Speaker 2>let that mischaracteris position of DevOps slide this time. Thanks

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<v Speaker 2>Steven twelve years.

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<v Speaker 1>Ago keeping us honest.

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<v Speaker 2>I enjoyed the conversation around languages used by devs and

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<v Speaker 2>ops coming together, but Kathleen hit on a key point.

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<v Speaker 2>PowerShell is a shell first and foremost it could be

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<v Speaker 2>used for programming, but it is a shell and offers

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<v Speaker 2>shell semantics. Sea sharp is a programming language and script

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<v Speaker 2>cs offers the ability to write scripts in it. But

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<v Speaker 2>it's still not Oh and I cannot wait to see

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<v Speaker 2>what Kathleen kicks out around ETW. That's event tracing for Windows.

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<v Speaker 2>This is all about the telemetry back twelve years ago.

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<v Speaker 2>That might fill a huge gap in operations ability to

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<v Speaker 2>tap into the ETW stream in a more straightforward manner.

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<v Speaker 2>And I don't know that it ever became anything. Of course,

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<v Speaker 2>these days that's not even how you think about. It's

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<v Speaker 2>all open telemetry, right, you've changed the whole standard for that. Hey, Steven,

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<v Speaker 2>nice flash from the past, man, Thanks so much for that.

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<v Speaker 2>And a coffee of music Koba is on its way

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<v Speaker 2>to you. And if you'd like a copy of music,

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<v Speaker 2>go buy. I read a comment on the website at

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<v Speaker 2>donat Rocks dot com or on the facebooks. We publish

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<v Speaker 2>every show there and if you comment there and I

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<v Speaker 2>read on the show, we'll send you a copy of

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<v Speaker 2>music Goba.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, we did an episode with Glenn Block on

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<v Speaker 1>script CS March tenth, twenty fifteen.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and you know what this one? That was the

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<v Speaker 2>period where the roslins Sharp run time didn't have a

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<v Speaker 2>license for you to use it freely, so you had

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<v Speaker 2>to force anybody using it to download it themselves. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I could had all this weirdness around it because this

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<v Speaker 2>is before open source and before that whole mindset. Although

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<v Speaker 2>it's imminent, right this is January of twenty fourteen. We

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<v Speaker 2>published this, like in April they will release rosalin As

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<v Speaker 2>on GitHub as cross platform open So it.

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<v Speaker 1>Was Glenn Block that started was CS so March twelve,

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<v Speaker 1>twenty thirteen, we did episode eight fifty three with him

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<v Speaker 1>and it's called Glenn Block goes open source with script cs.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, so there you go. Sort of we're still battling

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<v Speaker 2>with what that would even mean, but right, it's funny

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<v Speaker 2>in the context you just bring it up because this

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<v Speaker 2>is from January twenty fourteen. Four months later at the

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<v Speaker 2>Bills conference, they'll announced it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so there you go. And Richard mentioned music to

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<v Speaker 1>code Buy still going strong and have downloads every day,

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<v Speaker 1>twenty two tracks currently. You can get him in wave,

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<v Speaker 1>flak or MP three format. All right, Jason, it's your turn.

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<v Speaker 1>Jason Bock is a staff software engineer at Rocket Mortgage

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<v Speaker 1>and a Microsoft MVP for c Sharp. You can find

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<v Speaker 1>out more about him at jasonbok dot net. Welcome Jason,

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<v Speaker 1>thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 3>I appreciate being here, looking forward to it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so we're talking about source generation or source generators

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<v Speaker 1>and kind of an open topic. So let's just start

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<v Speaker 1>with the elevator pitch. What is a source generator and

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<v Speaker 1>how does it work?

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<v Speaker 3>So a source generator is a feature in the compiler.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, Richard, you already mentioned Roz and that's the

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<v Speaker 3>compiler underneath the scenes for c sharp and bend that

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<v Speaker 3>way since twenty fifteen. And initially there were extension points

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<v Speaker 3>in the compiler where you could write analyzers, code fixes,

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<v Speaker 3>and refactorings, which is cool. That has a lot of

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<v Speaker 3>interesting stuff and it plus the Holy API was there.

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<v Speaker 3>You could build whatever tools you wanted on top of

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<v Speaker 3>that to do code analysis. So it really a lot

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<v Speaker 3>of developer to do all sorts of wild interesting things

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<v Speaker 3>and also beneficial for other developers. At some point they

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<v Speaker 3>added in another extension point. I believe this was for

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<v Speaker 3>c sharp nine, and it's called source generators. So effectively

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<v Speaker 3>it allows you during the compilation process to look at

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<v Speaker 3>code that currently exists in that compilation and say, hey,

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<v Speaker 3>I want to generate some code, and there's a couple

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<v Speaker 3>of reasons why you want to do that. But you

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<v Speaker 3>participate when you write, When you author a source generator,

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<v Speaker 3>you participate in that compilation pipeline. And so you can

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<v Speaker 3>see literally, like in an idea, as somebody's changing code,

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<v Speaker 3>you can react to that and potentially change what you

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<v Speaker 3>generated if the use case that you're trying to hit

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<v Speaker 3>needs to do something like that. So it's native to

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<v Speaker 3>the compiler, it's not like a tool that you do

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<v Speaker 3>cogeneration as a separate step. Though there's nothing wrong with that,

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<v Speaker 3>but you don't have to have that separate tool. Do

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<v Speaker 3>all that you were talking beforehand about tool or pre

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<v Speaker 3>existing tools like T four T four templates is something

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<v Speaker 3>that I think if you've been in dotnet for a while,

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<v Speaker 3>you probably have heard of again, a nice fine tool,

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<v Speaker 3>except that's something you have to manually run. So source

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<v Speaker 3>generators are part and parcel of the Roslin compilation pipeline.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know what. I found the blog post by

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<v Speaker 2>Philip Carter, who was the PM at the time, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>for the preview of source generators in DAT five.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, yep.

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<v Speaker 1>And we had talked about them a couple of times.

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<v Speaker 1>And one thing I can remember is the verb squirt

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<v Speaker 1>you want to just squirt some code in there.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm not going to be using that. I still use

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<v Speaker 3>that term.

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<v Speaker 1>Or I laughed at the time too, Richard. I laughed

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<v Speaker 1>like Richard's doing right now.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm offering at how uncomfortable Jason is.

424
00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:24.319
<v Speaker 3>That's what's funny.

425
00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:26.119
<v Speaker 1>You know, you just want to squirt a little code

426
00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:26.480
<v Speaker 1>in there.

427
00:21:26.839 --> 00:21:28.920
<v Speaker 2>There really no no code squirting.

428
00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:32.759
<v Speaker 3>You can use that curl I probably.

429
00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:35.319
<v Speaker 1>Won't actually picked it up from the Microsoft guests we

430
00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:37.680
<v Speaker 1>were interviewing at the time. I don't remember who it was,

431
00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:41.319
<v Speaker 1>but it wasn't my word. I'm just a messenger.

432
00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:48.039
<v Speaker 2>But I mean, yeah, so now I can't even see

433
00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:51.119
<v Speaker 2>code injection because it's ruined. Now you've read it, sorry,

434
00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:54.319
<v Speaker 2>like about code injection.

435
00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:57.160
<v Speaker 1>So I'm taking it that the answer to my question

436
00:21:57.240 --> 00:21:59.079
<v Speaker 1>is now they don't use that term anymore.

437
00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:05.000
<v Speaker 3>I haven't heard of that related to source generators. And

438
00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:07.799
<v Speaker 3>maybe it was Von Ever and I don't think I

439
00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:10.839
<v Speaker 3>ever would have used that as a way to describe

440
00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:11.720
<v Speaker 3>source generators.

441
00:22:11.720 --> 00:22:14.359
<v Speaker 1>Maybe it was Eva Lowe that might have been talking

442
00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:16.759
<v Speaker 1>about it. I don't all right, I've I've derailed this

443
00:22:16.839 --> 00:22:21.119
<v Speaker 1>long enough. Let's move on. So the source genera the

444
00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:25.720
<v Speaker 1>source generator in the compiler. Then how do you decide

445
00:22:26.279 --> 00:22:30.480
<v Speaker 1>when and what to uh, you know generate? Is it

446
00:22:30.599 --> 00:22:34.599
<v Speaker 1>something that is just built into the pipeline that you configure,

447
00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:37.240
<v Speaker 1>you know, if this is that, then put this code

448
00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:40.000
<v Speaker 1>in or I don't understand.

449
00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:43.440
<v Speaker 3>So there's I'll kind of break the answer up into

450
00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:47.000
<v Speaker 3>two parts. There's the kind of the mechanism of what

451
00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:49.519
<v Speaker 3>you do if you're authoring a source generator, and then

452
00:22:49.559 --> 00:22:53.599
<v Speaker 3>maybe why you'd want to do this in the first place. So, okay,

453
00:22:53.960 --> 00:22:57.039
<v Speaker 3>the the what or the how part of it is

454
00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:01.519
<v Speaker 3>you essentially write a class library where you have a

455
00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:06.880
<v Speaker 3>class that implements one interface I incremental generator. There's another one,

456
00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:09.880
<v Speaker 3>but that's considered obsolete and I'm not even going to

457
00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:12.079
<v Speaker 3>bring it up because I don't want anybody to even

458
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:15.400
<v Speaker 3>use it anymore. That's the c sharp team really wants people.

459
00:23:15.400 --> 00:23:19.519
<v Speaker 3>If you're offering a source generator, use I incremental generator, okay.

460
00:23:20.519 --> 00:23:23.519
<v Speaker 3>And what you do in the implementation of that interface

461
00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:29.640
<v Speaker 3>is you effectively want to trigger your source generation off

462
00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:34.640
<v Speaker 3>of the existence of an attribute. So an attribute exists

463
00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:38.079
<v Speaker 3>somewhere in code, and your source generator is looking for

464
00:23:38.119 --> 00:23:41.559
<v Speaker 3>that attribute, and when it shows up, then you're going

465
00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:44.480
<v Speaker 3>to do whatever you want it to do. And we

466
00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:48.640
<v Speaker 3>can cover some examples later on, but that's really the

467
00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:51.960
<v Speaker 3>trigger point. You see that attribute there, and then you say, okay,

468
00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:54.559
<v Speaker 3>that attribute is maybe on a class, or it's at

469
00:23:54.559 --> 00:23:57.119
<v Speaker 3>the assembly level, or it's defined on a method. And

470
00:23:57.160 --> 00:23:58.559
<v Speaker 3>so now what I'm going to do is I have

471
00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:02.799
<v Speaker 3>all the information of the compilation, the syntax, the semantics,

472
00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:05.759
<v Speaker 3>all that stuff, and so now I can say, well,

473
00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:08.200
<v Speaker 3>this attribute'es on a class. So maybe I want to

474
00:24:08.200 --> 00:24:11.160
<v Speaker 3>look for all the properties on a class and I'll

475
00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:15.039
<v Speaker 3>use the rosal API to find that stuff and potentially

476
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:18.960
<v Speaker 3>build another class. Or maybe the class is partial, so

477
00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:22.880
<v Speaker 3>I want to extend that class with some other implementation

478
00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:27.200
<v Speaker 3>so that all gets combined up during compilation. So that's

479
00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:30.880
<v Speaker 3>what as an author of a source generator is going

480
00:24:30.920 --> 00:24:34.920
<v Speaker 3>to do. You'll define an attribute, you'll write an implementation

481
00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:39.000
<v Speaker 3>of this interface, and then you'll basically look for that

482
00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:44.200
<v Speaker 3>attribute to exist and generate some code. Now that's some mechanics,

483
00:24:44.279 --> 00:24:46.640
<v Speaker 3>but I think it's also important to discuss why would

484
00:24:46.680 --> 00:24:48.799
<v Speaker 3>you want to do this in the first place. Sure,

485
00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:51.920
<v Speaker 3>what's the benefit of it. There's a couple of things

486
00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:55.960
<v Speaker 3>that go at least for me that when I've written

487
00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:58.640
<v Speaker 3>source generators that I try to keep in mind. One

488
00:24:58.640 --> 00:25:00.880
<v Speaker 3>of them is does this it makes something that a

489
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:05.279
<v Speaker 3>developer has had to do and take it essentially out

490
00:25:05.279 --> 00:25:08.720
<v Speaker 3>of their hands because it's repetitive. It's something that you

491
00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:13.279
<v Speaker 3>know is very mechanical, mechanistic, and you don't as a developer,

492
00:25:13.839 --> 00:25:16.039
<v Speaker 3>can do it. It's just time consuming and I don't

493
00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:19.759
<v Speaker 3>want to do it. So that's one place where source

494
00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:23.079
<v Speaker 3>generators can be helpful because it takes that out of

495
00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:25.720
<v Speaker 3>your hands. You can just put an attribute somewhere and

496
00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:27.480
<v Speaker 3>the source generator does it all for you.

497
00:25:27.559 --> 00:25:30.039
<v Speaker 1>So I think what you're getting at is something that

498
00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:33.440
<v Speaker 1>you'd have to do a lot, like duplicate over a

499
00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:34.920
<v Speaker 1>collection or something like that.

500
00:25:35.160 --> 00:25:39.240
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and not all the time, but that's definitely something

501
00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:42.079
<v Speaker 3>that if you see you might go that might be

502
00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:44.839
<v Speaker 3>a case to write a source generator so that I

503
00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:48.720
<v Speaker 3>don't have to do exactly that all the time. Another

504
00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:54.839
<v Speaker 3>one is, for example, if I am building an application

505
00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:58.240
<v Speaker 3>and I want to do ahead of time compilation. So

506
00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:01.519
<v Speaker 3>if people know what that is, it's listening to this

507
00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:04.920
<v Speaker 3>ahead of time compilation is essentially saying I've got my code,

508
00:26:05.559 --> 00:26:08.000
<v Speaker 3>but instead of building it so that they're done to assemblies,

509
00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:10.839
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to build it so that it's targeting a

510
00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:15.160
<v Speaker 3>specific run time like Windows or MAC or something like that.

511
00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:19.200
<v Speaker 3>And so it does some things in the AOT compilation

512
00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:23.039
<v Speaker 3>step so that it's specific to that run time.

513
00:26:23.240 --> 00:26:28.160
<v Speaker 1>But don't the pragma things that you know, the hashtag

514
00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:32.160
<v Speaker 1>if this OS, then do this or if that OS.

515
00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:35.160
<v Speaker 1>Isn't that kind of addressing the same problem.

516
00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:39.519
<v Speaker 3>It can just for you know, depending on your case,

517
00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:41.880
<v Speaker 3>that you're just trying to say, hey, if I'm running

518
00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:44.039
<v Speaker 3>on a particular run time, I want to do this.

519
00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:48.599
<v Speaker 3>If you're using some of the the types that are

520
00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:51.960
<v Speaker 3>for Cindy instructions that you want to say, well, if

521
00:26:52.119 --> 00:26:54.519
<v Speaker 3>my processor supports it, I need to make that check

522
00:26:54.680 --> 00:26:58.160
<v Speaker 3>before I actually use them. This is saying I want

523
00:26:58.200 --> 00:27:00.880
<v Speaker 3>to have some optimizations done that I know. You know,

524
00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:03.240
<v Speaker 3>I've written my code that's maybe more generalistic and I

525
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:05.880
<v Speaker 3>don't care about the runtime, but I wanted to run

526
00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:11.559
<v Speaker 3>for these run times, specifically for potential performance benefits. The

527
00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:14.960
<v Speaker 3>thing with source generators that we want to keep in

528
00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:18.279
<v Speaker 3>mind with AOT compilation is that this is all code

529
00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:22.960
<v Speaker 3>that's generated for compilation at compile time. If you've ever

530
00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:26.960
<v Speaker 3>done things with reflection, that's all done at runtime, and

531
00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:30.559
<v Speaker 3>AOT in reflection is like oil and water. They don't mix.

532
00:27:31.960 --> 00:27:37.680
<v Speaker 3>They really become problematic because AOT will see, well, you

533
00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:40.359
<v Speaker 3>have this amount of code that's actually never being touched,

534
00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:42.519
<v Speaker 3>So I'm going to just shake it out of the

535
00:27:42.519 --> 00:27:44.160
<v Speaker 3>tree and get rid of it because I don't need

536
00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:46.279
<v Speaker 3>it anymore. But then your code runs and goes, wait

537
00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:50.640
<v Speaker 3>a minute, I expected this to be here for reflection reasons.

538
00:27:51.400 --> 00:27:55.640
<v Speaker 3>So that's another thing that is nice about source generation

539
00:27:55.839 --> 00:28:00.240
<v Speaker 3>is that you can take those runtime reflection things that

540
00:28:00.279 --> 00:28:04.400
<v Speaker 3>you're doing, make it a compile time process, and then

541
00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:07.559
<v Speaker 3>they'll stick around with AOT as well.

542
00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:10.240
<v Speaker 1>So it's very cool. Yeah, and all these things I'm

543
00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:14.240
<v Speaker 1>trying to envision, you know, how you would do it

544
00:28:14.279 --> 00:28:19.279
<v Speaker 1>without source generator. It's pretty obvious to see how something

545
00:28:19.319 --> 00:28:23.880
<v Speaker 1>that's repetitive would be you know, impossible, especially if you know,

546
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:27.559
<v Speaker 1>don't know what those you know, what's in that list

547
00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:30.799
<v Speaker 1>or how many there are, that kind of thing. But

548
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:33.960
<v Speaker 1>the other one I'm just still trying to wrap my

549
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:34.519
<v Speaker 1>head around.

550
00:28:34.759 --> 00:28:38.240
<v Speaker 2>It's a very meta way to think, yes, yeah, I'm

551
00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:41.200
<v Speaker 2>going to generate this code and with some parameters. You know.

552
00:28:41.559 --> 00:28:45.119
<v Speaker 2>This is also it feels like the Java factory model too, right,

553
00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:47.680
<v Speaker 2>that I beat a set of parameters and it spits

554
00:28:47.720 --> 00:28:49.599
<v Speaker 2>out something for me. And this case is instead of

555
00:28:49.599 --> 00:28:52.000
<v Speaker 2>just spitting out a class, is spitting out you know,

556
00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:53.400
<v Speaker 2>potentially all kinds of things different.

557
00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:56.720
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and when you said the word meta, I was

558
00:28:56.920 --> 00:28:59.079
<v Speaker 3>fortunate enough to be a co author in a book

559
00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:01.519
<v Speaker 3>I came out like years ago. It's called metaprogramming in

560
00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:05.200
<v Speaker 3>dot net and wrote it with Kevin Hazzard. Really good guy.

561
00:29:05.240 --> 00:29:06.400
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, great guy.

562
00:29:06.519 --> 00:29:09.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah yeah, And that was one of the things he

563
00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:12.680
<v Speaker 3>had the first chapter. We split the book in half

564
00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:15.640
<v Speaker 3>and he got the first one, and he did a

565
00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:18.799
<v Speaker 3>really good job at that first chapter, especially because he said,

566
00:29:19.160 --> 00:29:22.759
<v Speaker 3>really everything with meta programming, people think about expression trees

567
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:26.240
<v Speaker 3>and reflection and aspector of programming and all these terms.

568
00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:28.440
<v Speaker 3>And he said, beta programming is just treating your code

569
00:29:28.440 --> 00:29:28.880
<v Speaker 3>as data.

570
00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:33.160
<v Speaker 2>Right, that's great thinking. Yeah, it's just another kind of thing.

571
00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:36.440
<v Speaker 3>And you're just looking at that data. Instead of looking

572
00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:38.640
<v Speaker 3>at his code, you're looking at it probably as a tree,

573
00:29:39.119 --> 00:29:41.759
<v Speaker 3>looking through the tree and saying, this happens here, So

574
00:29:41.799 --> 00:29:44.880
<v Speaker 3>now I want to do something because of the existence

575
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:45.480
<v Speaker 3>of that data.

576
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:48.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Well, and that's you know, that's what compilers do, right,

577
00:29:48.920 --> 00:29:51.279
<v Speaker 2>They treat that code as data to turn into a

578
00:29:51.279 --> 00:29:54.519
<v Speaker 2>set of actions in a machine. And we should take

579
00:29:54.519 --> 00:29:54.920
<v Speaker 2>a break.

580
00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:57.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, let's do that. We'll be right back after these

581
00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:04.079
<v Speaker 1>very important messages. Stick around. Now we're back. It's dot

582
00:30:04.119 --> 00:30:06.839
<v Speaker 1>net Rocks. I'm Carl Franklin. That's my buddy Richard Campbell

583
00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:09.759
<v Speaker 1>either and that's Jason Bach you're listening to. We're talking

584
00:30:09.759 --> 00:30:12.400
<v Speaker 1>about source generators, and I'm wondering, do you know if

585
00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:16.759
<v Speaker 1>Microsoft is using source generators, you know, in their own

586
00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:18.680
<v Speaker 1>code eating their own dog food?

587
00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:22.240
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I love I love that phrase. Yeah, eating eating

588
00:30:22.279 --> 00:30:27.000
<v Speaker 3>your own dog food. They are. When source generators first

589
00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:30.279
<v Speaker 3>came out, there wasn't anything in dot net proper, like

590
00:30:30.519 --> 00:30:34.000
<v Speaker 3>a lot of developers like me and others were jumping

591
00:30:34.039 --> 00:30:36.200
<v Speaker 3>on this because well it's so it's a cool thing,

592
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:39.359
<v Speaker 3>you know, but it was also helpful for certain circumstances.

593
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:42.519
<v Speaker 3>But it wasn't in as far as I remember, nothing

594
00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:45.359
<v Speaker 3>in the dot need run time that did this. And

595
00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:50.079
<v Speaker 3>now at this point there there are implementations. So for example,

596
00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:53.200
<v Speaker 3>I think one of the most prevalent ones is regular expressions.

597
00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:55.960
<v Speaker 3>So I want to be very clear off the top,

598
00:30:56.400 --> 00:30:58.200
<v Speaker 3>I am not a reg ex expert.

599
00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:02.559
<v Speaker 1>To nobody is exactly said you where i'd have less

600
00:31:02.599 --> 00:31:03.240
<v Speaker 1>respect for you.

601
00:31:03.319 --> 00:31:07.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. No, there are noble to understand rejects, and one

602
00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:08.759
<v Speaker 2>of them is lying, Yeah.

603
00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:12.640
<v Speaker 3>There are things I know and there are things I

604
00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:14.559
<v Speaker 3>don't know, and I have no problem talking about what

605
00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:16.480
<v Speaker 3>I don't know and I don't know. If I want

606
00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:19.240
<v Speaker 3>to look up how to parse something. I will go

607
00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:21.599
<v Speaker 3>you know, now these days I'll just say, in copilot,

608
00:31:21.680 --> 00:31:22.960
<v Speaker 3>how do I write it? Rejects for this?

609
00:31:23.160 --> 00:31:25.720
<v Speaker 2>You know, yeah, you know, we say rejects is the

610
00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:29.640
<v Speaker 2>ultimate cut and paste language. But but now it's clearly,

611
00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:31.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, an ll M language.

612
00:31:31.359 --> 00:31:33.720
<v Speaker 3>I'm very impressed by people who know it actually, who

613
00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:38.119
<v Speaker 3>know it inside and out. It's it's it's kind of weird,

614
00:31:38.200 --> 00:31:40.400
<v Speaker 3>but it's also very impressive because people can do some

615
00:31:40.680 --> 00:31:42.880
<v Speaker 3>very cool things with it when when needed.

616
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:45.200
<v Speaker 2>Without a doubt. Yeah, it's like I feel like it's

617
00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:46.599
<v Speaker 2>like PowerShell too. It's like one of those things. If

618
00:31:46.640 --> 00:31:48.079
<v Speaker 2>you use it every day, it will stick, but if

619
00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:51.200
<v Speaker 2>you don't use it every day, it fades fast. Yeah, yeah,

620
00:31:51.319 --> 00:31:52.640
<v Speaker 2>it's not going to hang around.

621
00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:57.200
<v Speaker 3>So with ready expressions in NET, they've always been something

622
00:31:57.240 --> 00:32:01.240
<v Speaker 3>that's actually interpreted, compiled, and run time. So if you

623
00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:05.079
<v Speaker 3>write your rejects, nothing happens until somebody wants to do

624
00:32:05.119 --> 00:32:07.400
<v Speaker 3>a match or they want to do something with the rejects,

625
00:32:07.880 --> 00:32:12.279
<v Speaker 3>and that can lead to potentially some performance issues. Sure,

626
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:17.839
<v Speaker 3>So with rejects in C sharp, now what you can

627
00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:20.920
<v Speaker 3>do is, I think the attribute is called generated rejects,

628
00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:24.079
<v Speaker 3>but you put this attribute in your code, and you

629
00:32:24.119 --> 00:32:27.400
<v Speaker 3>put the rejects string in the code or in the

630
00:32:27.440 --> 00:32:30.680
<v Speaker 3>attribute I should say, and then there's a source generator

631
00:32:30.680 --> 00:32:34.359
<v Speaker 3>that kicks in and will basically show you the implementation

632
00:32:34.519 --> 00:32:36.960
<v Speaker 3>and see sharp of what that rejects will do. It's

633
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:41.480
<v Speaker 3>actually wha wow. It's really cool because you can use

634
00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:45.039
<v Speaker 3>tools like visual Studio or writer and you can see

635
00:32:45.079 --> 00:32:48.039
<v Speaker 3>what that generated code looks like. So if you really

636
00:32:48.039 --> 00:32:50.599
<v Speaker 3>want to know what it takes to implement a rejex,

637
00:32:51.160 --> 00:32:55.680
<v Speaker 3>the source generator shows you. And I'll even give Microsoft

638
00:32:55.680 --> 00:32:58.079
<v Speaker 3>props on this that they went. I think that small

639
00:32:58.160 --> 00:33:01.839
<v Speaker 3>but nice extra step in that when you have your

640
00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:05.759
<v Speaker 3>rejects source generated to see sharp, they'll put in a

641
00:33:05.880 --> 00:33:09.160
<v Speaker 3>whole bunch of XML comments and also just putting comments

642
00:33:09.160 --> 00:33:11.519
<v Speaker 3>in the code, so if you really are interested in

643
00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:14.960
<v Speaker 3>what it does, you can follow it fairly well. And

644
00:33:15.319 --> 00:33:20.519
<v Speaker 3>it's nice because it puts this header XML comment at

645
00:33:20.559 --> 00:33:23.039
<v Speaker 3>the top of what it's doing, so when you hover

646
00:33:23.160 --> 00:33:26.880
<v Speaker 3>over the attribute, you'll see you know this this rejects

647
00:33:26.920 --> 00:33:28.839
<v Speaker 3>will do the following things, and they will tell you

648
00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:32.039
<v Speaker 3>we're looking for characters zero to nine and then we're

649
00:33:32.039 --> 00:33:35.000
<v Speaker 3>going to skip and do the end it's great, it's amazing.

650
00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:37.880
<v Speaker 3>And again, all this now gets put in your compilation.

651
00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:41.000
<v Speaker 1>Does it go back the other way? Does if you

652
00:33:41.119 --> 00:33:44.079
<v Speaker 1>change the code, will it update the rejects? Yes?

653
00:33:44.359 --> 00:33:47.240
<v Speaker 3>And that's also a great thing about source generators is

654
00:33:47.279 --> 00:33:51.960
<v Speaker 3>that when you're writing one, if somebody's changing something underneath

655
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:56.599
<v Speaker 3>the scenes for you, you genera your code, that generator

656
00:33:56.599 --> 00:33:58.599
<v Speaker 3>code is going to be triggered, and so then you

657
00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:02.240
<v Speaker 3>can now say, well, they change rejects from this to this,

658
00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:06.240
<v Speaker 3>So now I'm going to change my rejex implementation to

659
00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:09.960
<v Speaker 3>what the new state is and you'll see that change

660
00:34:10.400 --> 00:34:12.280
<v Speaker 3>as the thing you're targeting will change.

661
00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:14.239
<v Speaker 1>That's very cool, n mind blown.

662
00:34:14.679 --> 00:34:17.280
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, no, and super powerful. And you know, the guy,

663
00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:21.599
<v Speaker 2>the person who wants to look at that code is

664
00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:25.400
<v Speaker 2>really uncomfortable with source generators sort of nondeterministic effects. I

665
00:34:25.480 --> 00:34:28.320
<v Speaker 2>want to see what this thing is doing. Yeah, And

666
00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:30.440
<v Speaker 2>it occurs to me we're living with some really serious

667
00:34:30.519 --> 00:34:32.960
<v Speaker 2>non deterministic code generators these days. We just call them

668
00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:34.599
<v Speaker 2>large language models.

669
00:34:34.519 --> 00:34:40.519
<v Speaker 3>Right yeah, and with source generators that they're actually very deterministic.

670
00:34:40.599 --> 00:34:43.000
<v Speaker 3>If I put in this rejex, I'm going to get

671
00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:48.239
<v Speaker 3>this output now every time, right now, the implementers of

672
00:34:48.280 --> 00:34:51.880
<v Speaker 3>that source generator may or versions go hey, we can

673
00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:54.159
<v Speaker 3>improve this, or we could change this, and so that

674
00:34:54.239 --> 00:34:57.679
<v Speaker 3>generated code may change underneath the scenes. But me as

675
00:34:57.719 --> 00:35:01.400
<v Speaker 3>the user, I don't care because I just want to

676
00:35:01.639 --> 00:35:03.960
<v Speaker 3>essentially work and if.

677
00:35:03.800 --> 00:35:05.519
<v Speaker 2>They need to make me as a developer, my care

678
00:35:05.559 --> 00:35:07.599
<v Speaker 2>a bit, but not a whole lot. You should you

679
00:35:07.639 --> 00:35:10.360
<v Speaker 2>expect the same results, Like if it doesn't work the same,

680
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:11.800
<v Speaker 2>that's a buck yes.

681
00:35:11.679 --> 00:35:15.079
<v Speaker 3>Yes, exactly. But if it works the same, and maybe

682
00:35:15.079 --> 00:35:17.360
<v Speaker 3>it doesn't allocate as much memory or it works a

683
00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:21.320
<v Speaker 3>little faster because they made improvements, great, I don't. In fact,

684
00:35:21.480 --> 00:35:26.000
<v Speaker 3>typically with source generators, by default they make files, but

685
00:35:26.039 --> 00:35:29.119
<v Speaker 3>they're not really files that exist in your project. That

686
00:35:29.159 --> 00:35:32.159
<v Speaker 3>may sound a little weird, but they're projects that are

687
00:35:31.960 --> 00:35:34.239
<v Speaker 3>there are files that are part of the project. That's

688
00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:36.920
<v Speaker 3>what gets compiled. If you really want to save them

689
00:35:36.920 --> 00:35:38.559
<v Speaker 3>the disc and you want them to be part of

690
00:35:38.599 --> 00:35:42.119
<v Speaker 3>your repository, you can do that. But by default they're

691
00:35:42.159 --> 00:35:45.400
<v Speaker 3>kind of these sort of a few you know, I

692
00:35:45.559 --> 00:35:47.440
<v Speaker 3>can't even say the word right now, but these kind

693
00:35:47.480 --> 00:35:50.880
<v Speaker 3>of ghost files, I'll use that term that they're there.

694
00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:54.000
<v Speaker 3>They do exist, but they're not actually put to disc

695
00:35:54.360 --> 00:35:59.400
<v Speaker 3>If that makes sense, so you're more if you're using

696
00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:03.239
<v Speaker 3>something that as a source generation At least I feel

697
00:36:03.239 --> 00:36:06.119
<v Speaker 3>this way as a developer, I just wanted to do

698
00:36:06.159 --> 00:36:08.800
<v Speaker 3>what it needs to do it does it well? Does

699
00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:11.400
<v Speaker 3>it match my coding style? Does it match any of

700
00:36:11.400 --> 00:36:14.719
<v Speaker 3>that stuff? I really don't care. I personally don't care.

701
00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:17.280
<v Speaker 3>I wanted to actually just do what it needs to

702
00:36:17.320 --> 00:36:21.119
<v Speaker 3>do and do it well. So regular expressions is one

703
00:36:21.159 --> 00:36:24.760
<v Speaker 3>of them. In Microsoft, there's also places with p invokes,

704
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:28.760
<v Speaker 3>with serialization, logging configuration. You know that they've added in

705
00:36:28.920 --> 00:36:34.199
<v Speaker 3>source generators for various advantageous scenarios.

706
00:36:34.440 --> 00:36:34.880
<v Speaker 1>That's cool.

707
00:36:34.920 --> 00:36:36.360
<v Speaker 2>I haven't heard P and voke in a while.

708
00:36:36.519 --> 00:36:39.599
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, neither of I. I heard about it and I went, oh,

709
00:36:39.639 --> 00:36:42.000
<v Speaker 3>that's great that they did that, and then it just

710
00:36:42.039 --> 00:36:44.000
<v Speaker 3>went right out of my head because I haven't done

711
00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:45.559
<v Speaker 3>a P and vulcan in decades.

712
00:36:46.119 --> 00:36:48.599
<v Speaker 1>So can you give me a scenario where a developer

713
00:36:48.639 --> 00:36:53.000
<v Speaker 1>working on a project is facing, you know, something that

714
00:36:53.039 --> 00:36:56.440
<v Speaker 1>they have to do and a code a source generator

715
00:36:56.480 --> 00:36:58.239
<v Speaker 1>would be the solution.

716
00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:02.079
<v Speaker 3>It's a it's a good quest question because typically at

717
00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:05.400
<v Speaker 3>least what and me as a developer day to day

718
00:37:05.480 --> 00:37:09.000
<v Speaker 3>with the stuff that I do. It's not a common thing,

719
00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:13.159
<v Speaker 3>and I think I want to stress that because while

720
00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:17.480
<v Speaker 3>I think source generators are cool and if the opportunity arises,

721
00:37:17.519 --> 00:37:19.760
<v Speaker 3>people should use them. But I think that's a key

722
00:37:19.800 --> 00:37:23.639
<v Speaker 3>part of this is that if the opportunity arises for

723
00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:26.199
<v Speaker 3>a lot of things that we do as developers, I

724
00:37:26.199 --> 00:37:31.119
<v Speaker 3>shouldn't say a lot, but there's typically even though there's

725
00:37:31.159 --> 00:37:33.719
<v Speaker 3>things that we repeat, that doesn't necessarily mean we should

726
00:37:33.719 --> 00:37:35.480
<v Speaker 3>go run off and do it as a source generator.

727
00:37:35.840 --> 00:37:38.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, don't turn this into a hammer you whack everything.

728
00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:41.239
<v Speaker 3>Well, yes, exactly. It's a great tool, but it's still

729
00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:44.920
<v Speaker 3>a tool that you don't need to use that tool everywhere.

730
00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:49.239
<v Speaker 2>It reminds me of aspect orated in general. Right, yeah, yeah,

731
00:37:49.320 --> 00:37:50.239
<v Speaker 2>it's a way of thinking.

732
00:37:50.599 --> 00:37:54.840
<v Speaker 3>It is it is, and it's also it's also again

733
00:37:54.880 --> 00:37:57.880
<v Speaker 3>because it's part of that compilation pipeline, you have to

734
00:37:57.920 --> 00:38:03.519
<v Speaker 3>be very aware of how fast it runs. If you're

735
00:38:03.559 --> 00:38:05.639
<v Speaker 3>going to do like I've heard some people say, well,

736
00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:08.599
<v Speaker 3>we generate this code because we read from a database. Nope,

737
00:38:08.840 --> 00:38:11.480
<v Speaker 3>source generators don't do that enough, because you're going to

738
00:38:11.559 --> 00:38:15.239
<v Speaker 3>kill performance as it looks in a tool like Visual

739
00:38:15.239 --> 00:38:17.960
<v Speaker 3>Studio Writer. So don't do that at all. You can

740
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:21.760
<v Speaker 3>build a tool to do that. That's great. Don't use

741
00:38:21.760 --> 00:38:24.440
<v Speaker 3>a source generator for that. You really want to just

742
00:38:24.519 --> 00:38:26.599
<v Speaker 3>look at things that are in code and then generate

743
00:38:26.679 --> 00:38:29.360
<v Speaker 3>new code off of that. So a lot of the

744
00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:32.000
<v Speaker 3>things that you see source generators written for are kind

745
00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:36.159
<v Speaker 3>of these generalistic like patterns or things that people do,

746
00:38:36.280 --> 00:38:40.960
<v Speaker 3>like serialization, like mocking. That's one of the things I

747
00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:44.639
<v Speaker 3>wrote a source generator for, and funnily enough, cold rocks.

748
00:38:44.880 --> 00:38:50.920
<v Speaker 3>So but that one uses source generation, you know. It's

749
00:38:51.039 --> 00:38:53.920
<v Speaker 3>it's things that I think have a more general pattern

750
00:38:54.239 --> 00:38:57.480
<v Speaker 3>that you're going to write a source generator for. It's

751
00:38:57.519 --> 00:39:01.679
<v Speaker 3>not maybe necessarily what you do specifically with things that

752
00:39:01.719 --> 00:39:03.920
<v Speaker 3>are related to your business or whatever you're working on.

753
00:39:04.159 --> 00:39:05.199
<v Speaker 2>Okay, fair enough.

754
00:39:05.400 --> 00:39:09.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, if you do find yourself in that position where

755
00:39:09.039 --> 00:39:10.920
<v Speaker 1>you know what, I think we need a source generator,

756
00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:14.320
<v Speaker 1>here give us some tips for people when they're writing

757
00:39:14.360 --> 00:39:16.159
<v Speaker 1>their first source generator.

758
00:39:17.199 --> 00:39:19.440
<v Speaker 3>The first tip is the one I said before, which

759
00:39:19.519 --> 00:39:22.800
<v Speaker 3>is considered not doing it. Yeah, and I know that

760
00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:25.239
<v Speaker 3>I know it well, it's it sounds.

761
00:39:25.039 --> 00:39:28.559
<v Speaker 2>You almost have to not care about performance, right like well.

762
00:39:28.519 --> 00:39:31.920
<v Speaker 3>And it's also writing a source generator has kind of

763
00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:34.119
<v Speaker 3>a I don't want to say it has a it's

764
00:39:34.119 --> 00:39:36.840
<v Speaker 3>not an insurmountable cliff you got to come over. But

765
00:39:36.920 --> 00:39:40.320
<v Speaker 3>there is something you do have to understand at least

766
00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:42.559
<v Speaker 3>some parts of Rosmond. You don't have to be a

767
00:39:42.599 --> 00:39:46.079
<v Speaker 3>compilation expert, but you have to understand what a sintexturee is,

768
00:39:46.119 --> 00:39:50.079
<v Speaker 3>what a semantic model is, at least have somewhat of

769
00:39:50.079 --> 00:39:53.280
<v Speaker 3>a high level of that stuff. You have to understand

770
00:39:53.320 --> 00:39:57.320
<v Speaker 3>how to build a source generator, which long story short,

771
00:39:57.760 --> 00:39:59.800
<v Speaker 3>can be a little interesting, especially as you try to

772
00:39:59.800 --> 00:40:03.000
<v Speaker 3>pasckage these things up into nu get packages. There's a

773
00:40:03.519 --> 00:40:07.559
<v Speaker 3>couple of things over time that have been problematic that

774
00:40:07.559 --> 00:40:09.679
<v Speaker 3>the community has kind of rallied around and figured out

775
00:40:09.719 --> 00:40:13.000
<v Speaker 3>what's the best way to write these source generators. So

776
00:40:13.480 --> 00:40:16.199
<v Speaker 3>that's why I don't mean to discourage people. It's just

777
00:40:16.400 --> 00:40:19.559
<v Speaker 3>if you think you want to write one, it might

778
00:40:19.639 --> 00:40:22.639
<v Speaker 3>be a better approach just again, write a command line

779
00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:25.159
<v Speaker 3>tool as a console app, or write a custom MS

780
00:40:25.159 --> 00:40:27.320
<v Speaker 3>build task that might actually be easier.

781
00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:29.639
<v Speaker 2>There's probably another way to do that. Some question is

782
00:40:29.639 --> 00:40:29.880
<v Speaker 2>is it.

783
00:40:29.880 --> 00:40:33.039
<v Speaker 1>Better maybe go find a package that's already written and

784
00:40:33.079 --> 00:40:35.559
<v Speaker 1>that's popular, so that you can see how they did.

785
00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:37.599
<v Speaker 2>It exactly be a good idea. I just said this

786
00:40:37.719 --> 00:40:42.199
<v Speaker 2>horrible chill where it's like I invoke it. I use

787
00:40:42.239 --> 00:40:44.360
<v Speaker 2>a source generator to call to an LLM to spin

788
00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:46.239
<v Speaker 2>out code for me that I ain't started in my application.

789
00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:48.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean, what could go wrong with that?

790
00:40:49.559 --> 00:40:54.079
<v Speaker 3>A lot wrong with that? You know, Richard, go for it.

791
00:40:54.119 --> 00:40:55.880
<v Speaker 3>That would be awesome, really cool, But.

792
00:40:57.519 --> 00:41:00.559
<v Speaker 1>That concludes the anti pattern session that rock.

793
00:41:00.679 --> 00:41:01.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah the best.

794
00:41:04.480 --> 00:41:08.400
<v Speaker 3>There's a lot of good resources out there now for people.

795
00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:11.840
<v Speaker 3>There is some sites that actually list like all the

796
00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:17.239
<v Speaker 3>known open source implementations for various source generators out there

797
00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:20.039
<v Speaker 3>and the ones that Microsoft does in the box. There

798
00:41:20.039 --> 00:41:23.840
<v Speaker 3>are some discord servers out there that people from the

799
00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:26.599
<v Speaker 3>c sharp team are on, so if you have questions,

800
00:41:26.719 --> 00:41:30.239
<v Speaker 3>you can go in there and if anybody knows, they

801
00:41:30.280 --> 00:41:35.079
<v Speaker 3>know because they effectively built the features, so they'll they'll

802
00:41:35.079 --> 00:41:35.760
<v Speaker 3>give you tips.

803
00:41:35.800 --> 00:41:40.400
<v Speaker 2>I really like these, you know, source generators for Jacks,

804
00:41:40.480 --> 00:41:45.280
<v Speaker 2>source generator for p and Vogue, like these rarely used

805
00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:48.440
<v Speaker 2>technologies where sometimes it's a good solution to a problem

806
00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:50.679
<v Speaker 2>and now I can introduce this additional mechanives that gives

807
00:41:50.760 --> 00:41:54.360
<v Speaker 2>me more observability, more understanding of what's happening. Yes, that's

808
00:41:54.400 --> 00:41:56.559
<v Speaker 2>exciting to me. That seems like one of my favorite

809
00:41:56.559 --> 00:41:57.119
<v Speaker 2>cases here.

810
00:41:57.239 --> 00:42:00.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Yeah. But the other case that I briefly mentioned

811
00:42:01.239 --> 00:42:05.119
<v Speaker 3>is the one with the mocking frameworks. With this one

812
00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:09.320
<v Speaker 3>that I've created, I started it in twenty fifteen, and

813
00:42:09.519 --> 00:42:12.199
<v Speaker 3>it was mostly just because, like I mentioned at the beginning,

814
00:42:12.440 --> 00:42:15.519
<v Speaker 3>when Roslin first came out, it was analyzers co fixes

815
00:42:15.519 --> 00:42:17.599
<v Speaker 3>for factories, and I wanted to sit there. I sat

816
00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:20.679
<v Speaker 3>there and I went, what could I do with Roslin

817
00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:25.559
<v Speaker 3>That isn't one of these things? And so I looked

818
00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:28.880
<v Speaker 3>at mocking frameworks, and I said, instead of using a

819
00:42:28.960 --> 00:42:31.880
<v Speaker 3>way to generate types that run time with like castle

820
00:42:31.960 --> 00:42:35.800
<v Speaker 3>Dynamic or Castle core and all that stuff, could I

821
00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:41.119
<v Speaker 3>do that somewhat with just generating c sharp. So originally

822
00:42:41.199 --> 00:42:44.320
<v Speaker 3>I just generated c sharp in this, and then I

823
00:42:44.480 --> 00:42:46.360
<v Speaker 3>rosin was actually a very small part of it. It

824
00:42:46.440 --> 00:42:47.639
<v Speaker 3>just compiled that c sharp.

825
00:42:48.079 --> 00:42:50.920
<v Speaker 2>I had a lot about Castle project in ages a

826
00:42:51.360 --> 00:42:52.280
<v Speaker 2>great point.

827
00:42:53.000 --> 00:42:56.480
<v Speaker 3>But then when source generators came in as a feature,

828
00:42:57.199 --> 00:42:59.360
<v Speaker 3>I went back and I said, okay, take all of

829
00:42:59.360 --> 00:43:02.079
<v Speaker 3>what I did and move that into a source generator.

830
00:43:02.719 --> 00:43:06.599
<v Speaker 3>One other thing, well, one of the things with mentioning

831
00:43:06.679 --> 00:43:08.840
<v Speaker 3>this that I think is also really important is that

832
00:43:09.800 --> 00:43:11.760
<v Speaker 3>with a lot of the mocking frameworks that are out there,

833
00:43:11.800 --> 00:43:14.559
<v Speaker 3>they use and I mentioned this before, the concept of

834
00:43:14.559 --> 00:43:17.760
<v Speaker 3>an expression tree, which expression trees are these great little

835
00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:22.039
<v Speaker 3>things in dot Net or I should say, She's sharp,

836
00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:25.119
<v Speaker 3>but they really haven't been updated in quite a long time,

837
00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:28.239
<v Speaker 3>and in fact, they're not going to be updated. That's

838
00:43:28.280 --> 00:43:29.880
<v Speaker 3>actually been stale.

839
00:43:29.639 --> 00:43:32.480
<v Speaker 2>Of course twenty seventeen. Dude, that's a long time ago, now, yeah.

840
00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:32.840
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

841
00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:34.920
<v Speaker 3>So there are features that have been added in C

842
00:43:35.119 --> 00:43:39.719
<v Speaker 3>sharp that don't exist in an expression tree. And so

843
00:43:40.280 --> 00:43:42.800
<v Speaker 3>the nice thing about writing a source generator is it's

844
00:43:42.840 --> 00:43:45.519
<v Speaker 3>in C sharp. I can generate anything in C sharp,

845
00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:49.480
<v Speaker 3>so there's no limitation as to what I can support.

846
00:43:49.559 --> 00:43:51.599
<v Speaker 3>So for Rocks, one of the things, for example, that

847
00:43:51.639 --> 00:43:56.679
<v Speaker 3>I can do is support restructs spans, which are becoming

848
00:43:56.920 --> 00:44:00.360
<v Speaker 3>more prevalent as time goes on. Other mocking frameworks can't

849
00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:03.599
<v Speaker 3>because they're tied to expression trees and they won't be

850
00:44:03.599 --> 00:44:09.119
<v Speaker 3>able to mock types that have these types within their definition.

851
00:44:09.719 --> 00:44:13.239
<v Speaker 3>So that's another advantage of source generators. It's all c sharp.

852
00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:15.800
<v Speaker 3>Anything you can do in C sharp, you can generate

853
00:44:15.800 --> 00:44:17.280
<v Speaker 3>with a source generator.

854
00:44:16.960 --> 00:44:18.840
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, And it all comes back to Roslin this

855
00:44:18.960 --> 00:44:23.400
<v Speaker 2>re entrant compiler. Essentially, this compiler is a service where

856
00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:26.639
<v Speaker 2>you can create you can create stuff from that compiler

857
00:44:26.639 --> 00:44:28.199
<v Speaker 2>that you can feed back to that compiler.

858
00:44:28.360 --> 00:44:31.119
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean I remember, you know, and you probably

859
00:44:31.159 --> 00:44:34.679
<v Speaker 3>remember this too, But way back in PDC days, I

860
00:44:34.719 --> 00:44:37.159
<v Speaker 3>started to hear that the you know, honors would be

861
00:44:37.199 --> 00:44:39.559
<v Speaker 3>on stage with what's in new and C sharp and

862
00:44:39.559 --> 00:44:42.400
<v Speaker 3>then he would hint right at the end this thing

863
00:44:42.599 --> 00:44:45.239
<v Speaker 3>maybe called compilers a service, you know, and you would

864
00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:47.239
<v Speaker 3>only talk about it for a couple of minutes. But

865
00:44:48.360 --> 00:44:51.159
<v Speaker 3>I heard about that and I kind of got hooked.

866
00:44:51.320 --> 00:44:53.920
<v Speaker 3>I was like, what is this, what is this new thing?

867
00:44:54.119 --> 00:44:56.559
<v Speaker 3>And you know, as we found out, it was this

868
00:44:56.639 --> 00:45:00.960
<v Speaker 3>whole rewriting of the compiler. Yeah, and not just rewriting

869
00:45:00.960 --> 00:45:03.360
<v Speaker 3>it in SEA sharp, but making it so they use

870
00:45:03.400 --> 00:45:06.159
<v Speaker 3>a developer could use it. And I personally think it's

871
00:45:06.199 --> 00:45:09.039
<v Speaker 3>one of the one of the best things or Microsoft

872
00:45:09.119 --> 00:45:10.000
<v Speaker 3>ever did with dot.

873
00:45:10.599 --> 00:45:12.280
<v Speaker 2>So that it was always an argument that they got

874
00:45:12.320 --> 00:45:13.800
<v Speaker 2>to it too late, like it's supposed to be. The

875
00:45:13.800 --> 00:45:15.880
<v Speaker 2>fun of the fundamental metrics of any language is that

876
00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:18.199
<v Speaker 2>you can write the language, and the language they didn't

877
00:45:18.199 --> 00:45:19.119
<v Speaker 2>get to it for a long time.

878
00:45:19.159 --> 00:45:21.239
<v Speaker 1>I think it's funny that Anders chose to use like

879
00:45:21.400 --> 00:45:23.679
<v Speaker 1>Columbo style to drop that one at the end.

880
00:45:23.800 --> 00:45:27.840
<v Speaker 2>The one thing, well, and it's the story as I

881
00:45:27.880 --> 00:45:29.519
<v Speaker 2>heard it, and let's face it, I'm the guy who's

882
00:45:29.519 --> 00:45:32.119
<v Speaker 2>been collecking the story for a long time. Is they

883
00:45:32.199 --> 00:45:35.039
<v Speaker 2>hit a point where you had the regular C sharp

884
00:45:35.079 --> 00:45:38.320
<v Speaker 2>compiler and its features, and then you had the compiler

885
00:45:38.360 --> 00:45:41.159
<v Speaker 2>that ran in visual studio to do all the intelligence

886
00:45:41.239 --> 00:45:43.400
<v Speaker 2>for you, and they were having a tough time keeping

887
00:45:43.440 --> 00:45:45.480
<v Speaker 2>those things in sync. It's like this should be the

888
00:45:45.559 --> 00:45:48.480
<v Speaker 2>same thing, Like why are we doing this twice? Yeah,

889
00:45:48.519 --> 00:45:51.400
<v Speaker 2>And that was finally the impetus to spend the sheer

890
00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:53.920
<v Speaker 2>amount of money it took to rewrite that.

891
00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:57.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I've heard numbers, and it does not sound like

892
00:45:57.800 --> 00:45:59.880
<v Speaker 3>it was cheap, No.

893
00:45:59.440 --> 00:46:01.599
<v Speaker 2>But it but it was going to get only more expensive.

894
00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:03.760
<v Speaker 2>The other side of this was, and we did this

895
00:46:03.840 --> 00:46:05.719
<v Speaker 2>on the show, was this sort of you know what

896
00:46:05.800 --> 00:46:09.239
<v Speaker 2>really happened, all the C sharp developers, the folks that

897
00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:12.719
<v Speaker 2>were building C sharp became C sharp developers because then

898
00:46:12.760 --> 00:46:15.440
<v Speaker 2>they were C plus plus developers that's how they were

899
00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:18.360
<v Speaker 2>writing C sharp And so suddenly, yeah, good point the

900
00:46:18.440 --> 00:46:23.280
<v Speaker 2>shape of from C sharp six on this it changed

901
00:46:23.679 --> 00:46:26.880
<v Speaker 2>because oh yeah, there was all these remarkable minds working

902
00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:29.320
<v Speaker 2>in c sharp every day and all of that. You know,

903
00:46:29.440 --> 00:46:33.400
<v Speaker 2>I wish I could just I think on the Matt's

904
00:46:33.400 --> 00:46:34.840
<v Speaker 2>targets you were talking to us, says this is a

905
00:46:34.880 --> 00:46:38.559
<v Speaker 2>Cambrian explosion like this, and then look at what's happened,

906
00:46:39.199 --> 00:46:42.719
<v Speaker 2>you know, eight versions later to c sharp. It's just

907
00:46:42.760 --> 00:46:45.760
<v Speaker 2>a different beast now, and I would argue better in

908
00:46:45.760 --> 00:46:46.199
<v Speaker 2>every way.

909
00:46:46.280 --> 00:46:49.239
<v Speaker 3>Well with also it becoming open source, I think was

910
00:46:49.280 --> 00:46:52.440
<v Speaker 3>a huge part of that too. You look at the

911
00:46:52.519 --> 00:46:56.199
<v Speaker 3>pace and the evolution of c sharp before that and

912
00:46:56.280 --> 00:46:59.480
<v Speaker 3>now after. It's funny because developers that I talked to

913
00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:02.559
<v Speaker 3>sometimes or you'll hear in the community, it's almost like

914
00:47:02.559 --> 00:47:04.679
<v Speaker 3>the pendulum has swung to the point of now they're

915
00:47:04.719 --> 00:47:07.519
<v Speaker 3>complaining about it moving too fast. There's too many features,

916
00:47:07.559 --> 00:47:10.800
<v Speaker 3>there's too many versions, and I can't keep up, and

917
00:47:11.519 --> 00:47:14.400
<v Speaker 3>you know you're going to go, well, which one do

918
00:47:14.480 --> 00:47:17.199
<v Speaker 3>you want? But I think by them moving it to

919
00:47:17.239 --> 00:47:20.480
<v Speaker 3>open source, that was also a big part of it,

920
00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:24.119
<v Speaker 3>because now you know, people like you and me, we're

921
00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:29.119
<v Speaker 3>you know, well maybe you're Richard, but you're not just

922
00:47:29.159 --> 00:47:31.280
<v Speaker 3>going to go into rosalind clone it and say I

923
00:47:31.320 --> 00:47:33.559
<v Speaker 3>want to add a new feature and submit a PR

924
00:47:33.599 --> 00:47:35.519
<v Speaker 3>and it's going to go in. That doesn't happen.

925
00:47:35.559 --> 00:47:38.960
<v Speaker 2>To be very clear, I am not going to do that. No, no, no, no,

926
00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:43.559
<v Speaker 2>am I okay. And when we've actually had people on

927
00:47:43.599 --> 00:47:48.360
<v Speaker 2>the show that became Microsoft employees because of their contributions

928
00:47:48.400 --> 00:47:51.599
<v Speaker 2>into dot nowt Yes, but it's incredibly rare, like that

929
00:47:51.719 --> 00:47:54.679
<v Speaker 2>is not a career path you should pursue, true kind of,

930
00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:55.320
<v Speaker 2>you know.

931
00:47:55.320 --> 00:47:58.320
<v Speaker 3>But there have been people that will, not not just

932
00:47:58.440 --> 00:48:01.000
<v Speaker 3>with Roslin, but the Dune on time. They'll go in

933
00:48:01.039 --> 00:48:05.159
<v Speaker 3>and maybe add in a new method to something, or

934
00:48:05.199 --> 00:48:06.960
<v Speaker 3>maybe they'll do a little bit of an improvement. I

935
00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:09.559
<v Speaker 3>think Ben Adams, if his name comes on my head,

936
00:48:09.559 --> 00:48:11.559
<v Speaker 3>he did a lot of stuff underneath the scenes for

937
00:48:11.599 --> 00:48:14.360
<v Speaker 3>a while to help out. Those are just community members

938
00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:17.559
<v Speaker 3>outside of Microsoft that just want to help this open

939
00:48:17.599 --> 00:48:21.559
<v Speaker 3>source effort, and I think that's also really helped things

940
00:48:22.280 --> 00:48:25.440
<v Speaker 3>evolve faster and also better over the years.

941
00:48:25.559 --> 00:48:27.639
<v Speaker 2>Totally. Yeah, yeah, awesome stuff.

942
00:48:27.719 --> 00:48:28.920
<v Speaker 1>So what's next for you?

943
00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:29.239
<v Speaker 2>Man?

944
00:48:29.519 --> 00:48:30.800
<v Speaker 1>What are you working on? For me?

945
00:48:31.079 --> 00:48:36.679
<v Speaker 3>Yeah? Well, my day job, which you know this is

946
00:48:36.800 --> 00:48:39.719
<v Speaker 3>all audio, but over my shoulder there I'm pointing. Now,

947
00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:42.960
<v Speaker 3>that's that's my day job, and that's pretty much what

948
00:48:43.000 --> 00:48:47.599
<v Speaker 3>I do. My focus is within Rocket and where I'm

949
00:48:47.639 --> 00:48:50.320
<v Speaker 3>at and the team I'm on. We spend our time

950
00:48:50.360 --> 00:48:53.079
<v Speaker 3>focused on building packages and libraries. You know, my focus

951
00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:55.199
<v Speaker 3>is on dot net, but we also have people that

952
00:48:55.239 --> 00:49:01.400
<v Speaker 3>do stuff with JavaScript. We've also we don't really evolve this,

953
00:49:01.599 --> 00:49:03.519
<v Speaker 3>but there have been some stuff done in PHP that

954
00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:06.360
<v Speaker 3>we inherit. That's the fun of being in a corporation. Sometimes,

955
00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:07.800
<v Speaker 3>sure that gets thrown.

956
00:49:07.519 --> 00:49:10.760
<v Speaker 2>On you, but that code still makes the company money.

957
00:49:10.800 --> 00:49:12.519
<v Speaker 2>Otherwise it wouldn't be there, exactly.

958
00:49:12.800 --> 00:49:13.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

959
00:49:13.840 --> 00:49:17.239
<v Speaker 3>So, but most of my stuff is in dot net

960
00:49:17.320 --> 00:49:19.719
<v Speaker 3>and just building stuff that other teams can use, other

961
00:49:19.760 --> 00:49:22.519
<v Speaker 3>engineers can use to make things so they don't have

962
00:49:22.599 --> 00:49:23.639
<v Speaker 3>to build that stuff.

963
00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:26.679
<v Speaker 2>The definition of an enterprise architect, my friend, that's what

964
00:49:26.719 --> 00:49:27.280
<v Speaker 2>it sounds like.

965
00:49:27.920 --> 00:49:30.679
<v Speaker 1>Kinda yeah, so I take it some of that it

966
00:49:30.679 --> 00:49:31.920
<v Speaker 1>has been source generators.

967
00:49:32.800 --> 00:49:35.559
<v Speaker 3>Not yet, we haven't really found anything yet to do

968
00:49:35.599 --> 00:49:39.559
<v Speaker 3>that internally, but I do keep that. I keep my

969
00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:41.719
<v Speaker 3>eyes open to see if that's ever needed.

970
00:49:42.320 --> 00:49:44.360
<v Speaker 2>This is a good answer to a particular problem the

971
00:49:44.360 --> 00:49:45.159
<v Speaker 2>company has.

972
00:49:45.480 --> 00:49:50.559
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly. So that's you know, that's my day job.

973
00:49:50.599 --> 00:49:53.000
<v Speaker 3>But I still go out. I still speak at conferences

974
00:49:53.000 --> 00:49:55.760
<v Speaker 3>when I can and and if I can make that happen,

975
00:49:56.079 --> 00:50:00.199
<v Speaker 3>I do that. Don't write books anymore for lots of reasons.

976
00:50:00.440 --> 00:50:01.960
<v Speaker 1>I guess I write books anymore.

977
00:50:02.079 --> 00:50:03.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly.

978
00:50:03.519 --> 00:50:05.559
<v Speaker 2>Writing one book is a good idea. You need to

979
00:50:05.639 --> 00:50:07.639
<v Speaker 2>have that thing in your hand. It's an example of

980
00:50:07.679 --> 00:50:10.679
<v Speaker 2>your effort. Writing more books means you're just not learning, right.

981
00:50:11.559 --> 00:50:13.880
<v Speaker 3>I was about to say, like, I've been part of

982
00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:16.239
<v Speaker 3>I think six or seven books in my life. Yea.

983
00:50:16.679 --> 00:50:18.920
<v Speaker 2>Sometimes you have to learn these mistakes over and over again.

984
00:50:19.239 --> 00:50:22.519
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Yeah. The last one I wrote was in twenty fifteen.

985
00:50:22.599 --> 00:50:28.280
<v Speaker 3>That was actually for something on Rosalind and I said,

986
00:50:28.639 --> 00:50:32.280
<v Speaker 3>I'll do it if one of the stipulations is I

987
00:50:32.280 --> 00:50:33.199
<v Speaker 3>don't have to pad the.

988
00:50:33.199 --> 00:50:35.360
<v Speaker 2>Book, right, I just want to stick with the meat.

989
00:50:35.400 --> 00:50:37.000
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't have to be eight hundred pages.

990
00:50:37.360 --> 00:50:39.360
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And so they were fine with that, and so

991
00:50:39.400 --> 00:50:41.880
<v Speaker 3>it's like one hundred and fifty pages and like something

992
00:50:41.960 --> 00:50:45.079
<v Speaker 3>like that. And that was great, and I sold tens

993
00:50:45.079 --> 00:50:47.079
<v Speaker 3>of copies and I.

994
00:50:47.519 --> 00:50:50.480
<v Speaker 2>Both guys, you bought it. Just awesome, Jason time.

995
00:50:50.760 --> 00:50:52.119
<v Speaker 3>I did have somebody come up to me at a

996
00:50:52.199 --> 00:50:55.199
<v Speaker 3>conference once and say to me, I really want to

997
00:50:55.199 --> 00:50:57.000
<v Speaker 3>thank you for writing that book. Because I was doing

998
00:50:57.039 --> 00:51:00.360
<v Speaker 3>my master's thesis on compilers and I was using C

999
00:51:00.519 --> 00:51:02.480
<v Speaker 3>sharp and I was stuck in your book actually helped

1000
00:51:02.519 --> 00:51:02.960
<v Speaker 3>me and I was.

1001
00:51:02.920 --> 00:51:05.760
<v Speaker 2>Like, that's awesome, that's cool, that's great, that's cool here.

1002
00:51:05.800 --> 00:51:07.920
<v Speaker 2>You only get so many of those ever. Yeah, yeah,

1003
00:51:08.119 --> 00:51:10.000
<v Speaker 2>once in a while you can affect some people like

1004
00:51:10.079 --> 00:51:11.960
<v Speaker 2>that's a good day. That's why you really make that stuff.

1005
00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:12.199
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

1006
00:51:12.400 --> 00:51:13.960
<v Speaker 2>I thought about this a lot. I would hope you

1007
00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:15.639
<v Speaker 2>don't have to. Here's an approach.

1008
00:51:15.800 --> 00:51:15.920
<v Speaker 1>Ye.

1009
00:51:16.320 --> 00:51:17.960
<v Speaker 3>So, but that's the last time I did it, and

1010
00:51:17.960 --> 00:51:19.400
<v Speaker 3>that's probably the last time I'll ever do it.

1011
00:51:19.960 --> 00:51:23.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, the world's moved on. Yeah, very good.

1012
00:51:23.639 --> 00:51:26.360
<v Speaker 1>Well, the website is Jasonbock dot net. You can read

1013
00:51:26.360 --> 00:51:29.000
<v Speaker 1>all about him there. And Jason, thank you very much.

1014
00:51:29.039 --> 00:51:30.639
<v Speaker 1>This has been very informative.

1015
00:51:30.719 --> 00:51:32.320
<v Speaker 3>Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

1016
00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:34.360
<v Speaker 1>Thanks you bet all right, We'll talk to you next

1017
00:51:34.400 --> 00:51:57.960
<v Speaker 1>time on dot net rocks. Dot net rocks is brought

1018
00:51:57.960 --> 00:52:01.840
<v Speaker 1>to you by Franklin's Net use by Pop Studios, a

1019
00:52:01.960 --> 00:52:06.360
<v Speaker 1>full service audio, video and post production facility located physically

1020
00:52:06.400 --> 00:52:09.159
<v Speaker 1>in New London, Connecticut, and of course in the cloud

1021
00:52:09.800 --> 00:52:14.039
<v Speaker 1>online at pwop dot com. Visit our website at d

1022
00:52:14.119 --> 00:52:16.119
<v Speaker 1>O T N E t R O c k S

1023
00:52:16.199 --> 00:52:21.239
<v Speaker 1>dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, and

1024
00:52:21.320 --> 00:52:24.599
<v Speaker 1>access to the full archives going back to show number one,

1025
00:52:24.800 --> 00:52:26.320
<v Speaker 1>recorded in September two.

1026
00:52:26.239 --> 00:52:26.840
<v Speaker 2>Thousand and two.

1027
00:52:27.440 --> 00:52:29.800
<v Speaker 1>And make sure you check out our sponsors. They keep

1028
00:52:29.880 --> 00:52:33.039
<v Speaker 1>us in business. Now go write some code, See you

1029
00:52:33.079 --> 00:52:37.039
<v Speaker 1>next time you got javans am