WEBVTT 1 00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:23.120 We got a good one for you this week. 2 00:00:23.199 --> 00:00:28.000 It's in my sweet spot, which is meso America, Middle America, Mexico, 3 00:00:28.079 --> 00:00:33.479 Central America. And we're talking Omech with my friend doctor 4 00:00:33.640 --> 00:00:37.600 Edwin Barnhardt. And it's a good subject because there's a 5 00:00:37.640 --> 00:00:39.479 lot of mystery. 6 00:00:40.119 --> 00:00:42.840 I'm just gonna put it that way. It's mystery, it 7 00:00:42.960 --> 00:00:46.920 is intrigued and what's beginning to come out. And you know, 8 00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:50.600 we spent a lot of time in Egypt. Egypt's been 9 00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:55.719 studied for decades, over one hundred and fifty years, maybe 10 00:00:55.759 --> 00:01:00.320 even longer, since seventeen hundreds, since Napoleon got in. The 11 00:01:00.320 --> 00:01:05.400 Egyptian the basically pillaged the whole country and brought back 12 00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:06.959 whole temples. 13 00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:08.519 I mentioned this before. 14 00:01:08.519 --> 00:01:11.120 If you go to the mouve in Paris, there's an 15 00:01:11.319 --> 00:01:17.079 entire temple that they reconstructed there, plus just countless artifacts 16 00:01:17.079 --> 00:01:20.040 that the Egyptians went back. But this week we're going 17 00:01:20.239 --> 00:01:22.959 to talk about not just the Olmec, but the Maya. 18 00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:24.959 And I have been. 19 00:01:24.799 --> 00:01:28.640 Fascinated since I started going down in the late nineteen 20 00:01:28.719 --> 00:01:34.799 nineties to Mexico at the invitation of elders, most notably 21 00:01:34.840 --> 00:01:38.760 Humbat's men, who had written a number of books, and 22 00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:43.239 he wanted to show the Western culture that there was 23 00:01:43.319 --> 00:01:48.640 more to the Mayan people than the bloodthirsty, heart ripping 24 00:01:49.799 --> 00:01:54.879 savages that are portrayed by National Gea, the Smithsonian and 25 00:01:54.879 --> 00:01:57.480 places like that. And this is what I'm bringing forth 26 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:01.599 in this book on writing the Maya Contraver. I've talked 27 00:02:01.719 --> 00:02:03.959 enough about We've got to get the thing going anyhow, 28 00:02:04.799 --> 00:02:08.560 Today we are talking about a lot of strangeness that's 29 00:02:08.599 --> 00:02:12.960 been coming up with the Maya and also with the Omec. 30 00:02:13.639 --> 00:02:16.840 The Omec used to be considered the mother culture. 31 00:02:16.520 --> 00:02:17.199 Of the Maya. 32 00:02:18.319 --> 00:02:19.960 And we've had a number of people on the program 33 00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:26.039 saying that no, they were contemporaries. They they probably battled 34 00:02:26.039 --> 00:02:29.039 each other. And I am in the middle of right 35 00:02:29.240 --> 00:02:32.360 reading a book by a really well known minus a 36 00:02:32.360 --> 00:02:36.800 guy named David Stewart who has written this really well 37 00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:41.960 put together book called The Four Heavens, and I gotta say, 38 00:02:42.039 --> 00:02:44.639 if you do decide you want to get this book, 39 00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:46.639 and by the way, it's the latest and the greatest 40 00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:51.680 about the Maya. He is an epigrapher, which is an 41 00:02:51.800 --> 00:02:56.639 expert in translating mostly Stoneworks because we don't have a 42 00:02:56.680 --> 00:02:59.919 lot of very few Cotises very few written books only, 43 00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:04.840 and those don't get into kings and very little pottery. 44 00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:10.039 Most of what he interprets in this book are stories 45 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:14.800 of kings and their domain and what they are up 46 00:03:14.840 --> 00:03:18.479 to it and the battles. But I'll tell you this, 47 00:03:18.800 --> 00:03:21.159 if you decide to get it, don't I mean buy 48 00:03:21.240 --> 00:03:24.199 the book. Just look look at the great images. But 49 00:03:24.599 --> 00:03:30.639 by the audible version, it's much easier to consume. If 50 00:03:30.680 --> 00:03:32.400 you decide to read it, you're gonna have to be 51 00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:35.159 very very patient because it takes a long time to 52 00:03:35.199 --> 00:03:41.039 get to the point. And I mean it's I shouldn't. 53 00:03:41.360 --> 00:03:43.439 I'm not a great reader. I have to be honest 54 00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:45.719 with you, so I'm not one to common. If you 55 00:03:45.800 --> 00:03:50.680 love to read, get the book thefore heavens. If you 56 00:03:50.719 --> 00:03:52.319 don't like to read, and you're like me, you don't 57 00:03:52.360 --> 00:03:55.680 have a lot of time, get the audible because it's 58 00:03:55.800 --> 00:04:02.560 really the latest good data, academically researched and presented in 59 00:04:02.599 --> 00:04:09.280 a very palatable manner. Unfortunately it borders on academic. But 60 00:04:10.159 --> 00:04:12.800 if you listen to it, it's much easier to consume. 61 00:04:15.680 --> 00:04:18.519 But it's good. It's good material. Here is the great 62 00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:20.680 problem we're dealing with right now, and This is what 63 00:04:20.759 --> 00:04:26.759 I'm trying to get out through my writing. There's two phases. 64 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:32.639 There's the pre Classic, early Middle, and Late, and there's 65 00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:37.000 the Classic, early Middle and Late. What archaeologists don't tell 66 00:04:37.079 --> 00:04:41.279 us is that these two are separate periods, separated by 67 00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:45.759 a few thousand years. The earliest Maya, the pre Maya. 68 00:04:46.199 --> 00:04:51.120 These guys, very oddly, were very much like the pre 69 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:56.000 Dynastic or early Egyptians. They had a king's list. They 70 00:04:56.160 --> 00:05:04.319 built magnificent megalithic, huge temples and pyramids, the largest in 71 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:06.560 the Americans. And I talk about this all the time. 72 00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:10.839 Why is this unique? The Egyptians follow the same pattern 73 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:16.079 their earliest works. If you consider the pyramids pre Dynastic 74 00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:20.040 or Old Kingdom, which some people believe that's true, I 75 00:05:20.040 --> 00:05:26.600 think they're much earlier. The Egyptians are very similar to 76 00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:31.680 the Maya. The Maya are very similar to the Summers Sumerians. 77 00:05:32.079 --> 00:05:34.279 And so they all have kings lives. This is all 78 00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:35.439 real new stuff. 79 00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:35.879 Now. 80 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:40.199 What's mind bending in What is fun about this interview 81 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:43.879 today is that I'm asking it. I say, ed, now, 82 00:05:43.879 --> 00:05:48.160 the Egyptians have a kings list of noted kings, noted pharaohs, 83 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:54.000 but it goes into deep antiquity, thousands and thousands, ten 84 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:58.959 thousands of years or more of prehistory, and Egyptologists do 85 00:05:59.079 --> 00:06:03.240 not can sitter pharaohs or kings prior to a certain 86 00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:04.079 time factor. 87 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:05.279 Why is that? 88 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:11.040 Because they can't bend around the idea of any sophisticated 89 00:06:11.079 --> 00:06:16.680 civilization before four thousand years or five thousand years. This 90 00:06:16.759 --> 00:06:19.800 is what we're seeing in with this new book The 91 00:06:19.879 --> 00:06:26.720 Four Heavens by David Stewart. We're seeing ancient cities like Elmador, 92 00:06:27.160 --> 00:06:32.439 which has the largest pyramids in the America's listing kings 93 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:36.199 that go back ten thousand years actually earlier than that. 94 00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:40.639 And how do these guys and this drives me nuts. 95 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:44.639 Why don't they think about the possibilities of early people, 96 00:06:44.720 --> 00:06:50.279 of early migrants who make up and eventually become the Maya. 97 00:06:50.439 --> 00:06:53.680 They can't go there. So what happens is as far 98 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:56.040 as they can go is known kings. Because they can 99 00:06:56.279 --> 00:07:00.560 correlate kings between different posts, different steela. Which of these 100 00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:04.639 standing markers that talk about the kings, the ones they 101 00:07:04.680 --> 00:07:09.000 know about, they admit, But when they start going further back, 102 00:07:09.040 --> 00:07:13.480 it's like, oh, it's mythology. Why is it mythology? Because 103 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:17.879 it's too far in the distant paths for them to 104 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:21.360 consider a true pharaoh, a true king. 105 00:07:22.759 --> 00:07:23.480 This is just. 106 00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:28.279 Getting out of hand. And the beauty of someone who 107 00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:32.040 is highly educated in a minus himself. And if you 108 00:07:32.040 --> 00:07:34.319 don't know who Ed Barnhart is, check him out. He's 109 00:07:34.439 --> 00:07:37.439 going to Ed Barnhart dot com. Go to his YouTube channel, 110 00:07:37.800 --> 00:07:40.160 which is growing steadily. He's got quite a fan base. 111 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:47.279 He has actually done excavations. He's a serious field archaeologist, 112 00:07:48.360 --> 00:07:52.160 and he is of the belief that, you know, we 113 00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:55.480 need to be a little more flexible. And remember, and 114 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:57.759 if you haven't heard it before, you're going to hear 115 00:07:57.759 --> 00:08:02.680 it now. We have about one percent of the knowledge 116 00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:05.120 of the of the Maya. Now in Egypt it's a 117 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:09.040 little more, maybe five percent. There's so much that's buried. 118 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:14.959 And remember, the technology is exposing a great deal of information. 119 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:20.319 We've talked about this before. Eight nine years ago, universities 120 00:08:20.600 --> 00:08:28.360 and the Guatemalan government, our universities got together and paid 121 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:33.840 for sophisticated light art scans of the biasphere of Guatemala. 122 00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:37.840 When did they turn up? They turned up sixty thousand 123 00:08:38.360 --> 00:08:46.120 unknown pyramids, temples, buildings, cities. Listen to what I'm saying. 124 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:49.399 It's not a few hundred. Oh there's a few scattered hundred. No, 125 00:08:50.440 --> 00:08:56.080 they plotted and calculated that there were sixty thousand unknown 126 00:08:56.159 --> 00:08:59.440 ruins in the Guatemala jungle. 127 00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:01.120 Well, what the hell? 128 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:03.399 What does that say? Well, that says that we have 129 00:09:03.559 --> 00:09:06.759 just scratched the surface. So this goes on and on 130 00:09:06.799 --> 00:09:11.639 and on, and we make the best sense of it 131 00:09:12.159 --> 00:09:17.000 that we can. Today's program is more focused on the Omecs, 132 00:09:17.039 --> 00:09:19.240 some of the new discoveries that have been made, some 133 00:09:19.279 --> 00:09:22.840 of the new interpretations that have been made, and one 134 00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:27.480 of them is that the Omech were very likely megalithic 135 00:09:27.519 --> 00:09:32.519 builders as well, and we'll learn just why. So today's 136 00:09:32.519 --> 00:09:37.960 program is the Omeic Enigma, Unearthing meso America's Lost Empire. 137 00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:48.720 And my guess is, Doctor Edwin Barnhardt. 138 00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:17.279 This is gonna be an Omech program. 139 00:10:17.320 --> 00:10:19.840 We have Doctor Edwin Bonhart back with us, and it's 140 00:10:19.879 --> 00:10:22.919 always fun to talk with Ed. I have had the 141 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:26.320 privilege of going and joining him on a number of tours, 142 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:31.159 including one that was focused on the Olmech. And not 143 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:35.639 only is ed a I would call a bible of information. 144 00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:40.559 He loves his work and it shows and so we're 145 00:10:40.600 --> 00:10:44.759 talking about the OLMEC today and a number of topics 146 00:10:44.759 --> 00:10:48.879 that have been coming up, just not only through Ed's work, 147 00:10:49.000 --> 00:10:52.840 but through other scientists and research investigators that I wanted 148 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:55.320 to touch base with. So Ed, good to see you. 149 00:10:55.480 --> 00:10:58.799 Thanks for joining me and the house life in Colorado. 150 00:10:58.919 --> 00:11:02.960 You're now a pure I shouldn't say pure. Were you 151 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:07.279 moved from Texas to Colorado. The temperature should be a 152 00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:10.159 lot nicer where you're at right. Oh, it's a beautiful 153 00:11:10.240 --> 00:11:12.879 day out there. I've got the sun shining in behind 154 00:11:12.919 --> 00:11:15.799 the computer right now. Nice to see a cliff. Thanks 155 00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:19.799 for inviting me back. Thank you. Yeah, good to see you. 156 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:25.879 I had a number of questions regarding just the Olemech 157 00:11:25.879 --> 00:11:28.240 as a whole. One of the things that I think 158 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:30.240 we brought up last time, and it's been I think 159 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:33.360 four or five years since we last talked about the 160 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:37.759 Olemech is this is one of these cultures that almost 161 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:41.759 shows up complete, and I was wondering, do we have 162 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:46.600 a record of them in a developmental stage where they're 163 00:11:47.799 --> 00:11:55.720 building early mud huts and pyramids and developing a cosmology 164 00:11:55.799 --> 00:12:00.000 that eventually blooms into a much more sophisticated cosmolgy. 165 00:12:02.440 --> 00:12:08.200 Well, We do have some evidence of a gradual development, 166 00:12:08.799 --> 00:12:11.960 not as much as I would like. You know, a 167 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:15.000 lot of it comes from a site called Almanatee that's 168 00:12:15.080 --> 00:12:18.960 close to San Lorenzo, and then San Lorenzo itself, which 169 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:24.720 is the first big Olmech city, has evidence of early 170 00:12:24.799 --> 00:12:30.360 occupation that was more simple and then developing into building 171 00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:36.519 that gigantic range building. They made this platform that's a 172 00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:42.600 kilometer wide, it's narrow, it's a big rectangle. But we 173 00:12:42.679 --> 00:12:46.279 do have some Oftentimes, you know, that sort of information 174 00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:51.399 is hard to come by without serious deep excavations because 175 00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:54.919 you know, the newer stuff buries the older stuff, right 176 00:12:55.399 --> 00:12:59.399 it is, you know, I the Onmic are certainly the 177 00:12:59.519 --> 00:13:04.639 first major civilization to come up with art and religion 178 00:13:04.879 --> 00:13:10.399 and the roots of writing, and that makes them fascinating 179 00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:13.679 and unique in meso America. But I do think we 180 00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:17.120 have enough information to say they didn't just like PLoP 181 00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:21.759 down complete. We see them growing. There are years where 182 00:13:23.320 --> 00:13:28.279 they're there but not creating those big basalt monuments. Yet 183 00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:32.960 we see a sequence of building on the big platform there. 184 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:37.159 We see the population going from a small amount of 185 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:42.399 people very close to that platform to spreading out all 186 00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:46.360 over the place there's ant Cipher's did a really great 187 00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:54.559 job of documenting the expansion of San Lorenzo's population, so 188 00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:57.919 we have data out there, but that's really I mean, 189 00:13:58.039 --> 00:14:01.879 most of that that I can cling to is in 190 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:05.080 San Lorenzo. I'd love to see us go to more 191 00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:09.120 of the Olmec cities and do that kind of extensive 192 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:13.120 study so we can see just how quickly they developed. 193 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:19.720 Who what university or organization would you say are the 194 00:14:19.720 --> 00:14:24.120 most active in excavating omech sites, because you know, I 195 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:28.320 used to think it was it was in Texas, you know, 196 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:31.080 but that seems to be more Maya focus. University where 197 00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:35.000 you came from, school, you graduated from, and I think 198 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:40.639 that's where isn't that where David Stewart is residents right now, 199 00:14:40.679 --> 00:14:46.600 the one of the better known Mayanish. 200 00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:47.440 That's where I was from U T. Austin, and that's 201 00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:51.879 where David's from. But actually, not much has been done 202 00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:54.519 in ut on the in the Olemec world that I'm 203 00:14:54.559 --> 00:15:00.200 aware of in decades. I mean Kent Riley's work when 204 00:15:00.200 --> 00:15:02.480 he was a student there was a big deal, and 205 00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:06.799 that was mostly art historical, not excavations. The truth is 206 00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:10.080 there are very very few excavations going on in the 207 00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:13.200 Olemec world. You know, I can count the guys that 208 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:17.799 are active olemech archaeologist that I know. You know, on 209 00:15:17.799 --> 00:15:22.679 one hand, the biggest project that I'm excited about is 210 00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:28.480 once again going on in San Lorenzo. But Vicky Arietta 211 00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:33.679 is leading a team every summer, I guess now or 212 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:37.879 every yeah, once a year, she's leading team there and excavating, 213 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:44.240 continuing the work of her mentor and Cipher's. But they're 214 00:15:44.279 --> 00:15:47.919 from Halapa in Vera Cruz. I think they're from the 215 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:52.799 University of Vera Cruz, So that's a Mexican it's a 216 00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:57.679 Mexican project. And I was following them when they were 217 00:15:57.679 --> 00:16:00.440 in this season this year and it looked like they had, 218 00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:06.759 you know, maybe forty people working, students, professors and locals. 219 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:09.080 So I'm excited to see what they come up with. 220 00:16:09.159 --> 00:16:12.600 She is probably gonna find another head. She knows where 221 00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:15.919 to look, she's well trained. Her mentor found the last one. 222 00:16:16.240 --> 00:16:17.440 She's gonna find another one. 223 00:16:17.480 --> 00:16:19.759 You know, that's funny you mentioned that, because I've always 224 00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:23.679 wondered how in the hell did Sterling find Didn't he 225 00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:27.360 find like five or six heads in like one four 226 00:16:27.480 --> 00:16:31.120 or five year period. I mean it's like either I think. 227 00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:33.639 He found I think he found yeah, in like a 228 00:16:33.639 --> 00:16:34.480 one year period. 229 00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:37.799 Is it because the farmers were like, we found this 230 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:41.919 half exposed or did he have like his radar up 231 00:16:42.039 --> 00:16:45.720 just to find all make heads? No, they were exposed 232 00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:47.840 on the surface. The ones they were moved from their 233 00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:50.720 original locations tumbled down the hill, but they were exposed 234 00:16:50.759 --> 00:16:52.799 to the surface. And yeah, the farmers showed them all 235 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:57.840 of them. Every every head that Sterling found, he was 236 00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:00.919 led there by a farmer. Some of the ones that 237 00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:05.799 were found during the Yale project where they used a magnetometer, 238 00:17:05.960 --> 00:17:09.920 they found a couple of totally buried heads, but most 239 00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:13.880 of them that Stirling found, like most archaeologists' great discoveries, 240 00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:20.799 were you know, toddling behind a farmer magnetometer. How does 241 00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:23.279 does that work? Is that some way of picking up 242 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:28.240 stone or crystalline frequencies in the stone or how does 243 00:17:28.279 --> 00:17:28.680 that work? 244 00:17:28.759 --> 00:17:32.480 Yeah? I don't know the exact science of it, but 245 00:17:32.559 --> 00:17:36.680 I do know that it was capable of detecting basalt 246 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:42.079 under the ground. And since San Lorenzo has no natural 247 00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:45.640 beds of basalt, all that was dragged in there. The 248 00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:49.319 I guess it's the resistance of the soil versus other 249 00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:55.559 stone types. In this particular case, that worked like a charm, 250 00:17:55.640 --> 00:17:59.839 because any piece of basalt, no matter how small, had 251 00:17:59.880 --> 00:18:05.160 to be hauled from seventy kilometers away. They fifty. Is 252 00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:06.160 the feeling. 253 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:13.960 That these huge basalt heads are kings of unknown history 254 00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:19.000 and there's a possibility that there's more of these huge 255 00:18:19.079 --> 00:18:22.680 heads that are still buried or what's the feeling on that. 256 00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:26.960 Is there any research or any study that has been 257 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:27.640 done on them? 258 00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:33.880 Well, I think you're exactly right. The predominant opinion is 259 00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:38.000 that they're kings and that they were placed on these 260 00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:43.519 big linear platforms, and there's no reason to believe there's 261 00:18:43.559 --> 00:18:48.519 not more. You know, San Lorenzo began that tradition of 262 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:52.160 making heads, you know, two hundred years before they gave 263 00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:54.799 up the ghosts, So we should have two hundred years 264 00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:59.480 of kings and we've got ten heads. But of course 265 00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:02.480 that's theoretical. We could be totally wrong about who these 266 00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:06.880 heads are. It makes sense in their position and that 267 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:11.799 their unique faces and headdresses, which I bet you somehow 268 00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:14.400 allude to what their name is, the fact that each 269 00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:17.680 one has a different headdress I bet you. Encoded in 270 00:19:17.720 --> 00:19:21.799 that headdress is some sort of marker that says this 271 00:19:21.880 --> 00:19:25.000 is King X, just like the Maya did so much 272 00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:29.160 more clearly afterwards. You know, there are certain Maya kings 273 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:32.279 who have their whole name spelled out in their head dress. 274 00:19:33.319 --> 00:19:37.440 It's funny, though, because we don't see helmets in Mayan 275 00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:40.599 sculptures that I know of. It seems like the omic 276 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:45.359 It's almost like they're a warring class. But what is 277 00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:48.880 your interpretation of these these helmets, what makes. 278 00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:51.599 These well, you know, helmets is a loaded term. Why 279 00:19:52.279 --> 00:19:59.240 helmets implies they are warriors fighting someone, or perhaps sports players. 280 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:04.720 But those are both very Western ideas, and we really 281 00:20:04.759 --> 00:20:08.119 have no weapons that any of these Olmec figures are 282 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:10.799 ever shown with, So I think that the idea that 283 00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:16.200 they are you know, war related, is probably off beat. 284 00:20:16.599 --> 00:20:21.599 They probably are some sort of headdress, some you know, 285 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:28.799 some symbol of their authority. Could be ballplayers, but that's again, 286 00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:31.559 you know, that's us Western thinking that a football player 287 00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:35.079 wears a helmet, When we actually see the Maya playing 288 00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:39.559 ball games in their art, nobody's wearing a helmet. They're 289 00:20:39.559 --> 00:20:43.440 wearing pads on their body. So the big heavy solid 290 00:20:43.480 --> 00:20:46.519 ball doesn't explode their organs. But there they don't really 291 00:20:46.519 --> 00:20:52.279 wear helmets to play the game. So I lean headdress, 292 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:55.960 and you're right there. Unique there's the headdresses got bigger 293 00:20:55.960 --> 00:20:58.720 and bigger and bigger after the Omes, and the Olmec 294 00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:03.559 wore some pretty big addresses too. Wow. So there must 295 00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:07.119 be some significance to that unique form. But we have not. 296 00:21:08.119 --> 00:21:11.480 We'll probably never truly figured that out, but few have 297 00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:15.799 even you know, made an argument why they're different. 298 00:21:16.519 --> 00:21:21.000 You on tour with you and when we were in Leventa, 299 00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:25.880 made an interesting statement. We have the bones of various 300 00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:31.119 Maya rulers and people, but we don't have anything from 301 00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:35.559 the Olmec. And your reasoning was that the soil is 302 00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:39.440 so acidic that it eats up the bones and remains. 303 00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:42.440 Do we have any remains at all, any like burial 304 00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:44.920 goods that would give us the kind of a sense 305 00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:46.160 of who these people were? 306 00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:50.640 You know? We do? Uh. And when I told you 307 00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:55.079 that statement a few years back, you know, and still 308 00:21:55.079 --> 00:21:58.279 to this day, that is the prevailing wisdom that the 309 00:21:58.359 --> 00:22:01.799 reason we have so few all skeletons are the acidic 310 00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:05.559 nature of the soil. Totally makes sense, but here's the 311 00:22:05.559 --> 00:22:09.119 weird thing, Cliff that I've now traveled a lot of 312 00:22:09.160 --> 00:22:11.400 the Olemec world. I went and really did a deep 313 00:22:11.480 --> 00:22:15.480 dive before I made this twelve lecture series Olmec Thing 314 00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:19.640 for the Teaching Company, which came out last year. But 315 00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:25.599 everywhere I went I saw bones. In the tre Sipotees 316 00:22:26.359 --> 00:22:30.799 museum at that site, there are bones. There's a skeleton 317 00:22:30.920 --> 00:22:33.720 sitting right there in a little display case. And I 318 00:22:33.720 --> 00:22:35.480 talked to the guards and they said there are more 319 00:22:35.480 --> 00:22:39.000 in the lab. And I went to the museum in 320 00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:44.319 San Andreas Toushla that has a lot of the stuff 321 00:22:44.359 --> 00:22:49.240 from those mountains and some from Trecapotees. There were skeletons 322 00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:52.119 in cases there. There were baby skeletons. I talked to 323 00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:55.240 the people at San Lorenzo. They said that they dug 324 00:22:55.319 --> 00:23:01.079 up skeletons with Anne Cipher. She actually did analyze two 325 00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:04.240 of them. But the people there that were workers told 326 00:23:04.279 --> 00:23:07.720 me they had more. And so it's funny. I mean, 327 00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:10.839 I've always heard this, there are no l next skeletons, 328 00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:14.640 but geez, they're sitting in museums just you know, weird. 329 00:23:14.920 --> 00:23:17.440 I am not a chemist guy, I can't go in there. 330 00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:20.240 You know, some people misunderstand, you know, I don't have 331 00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:24.039 some authority because I'm an archaeologist or a PhD. I 332 00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:26.680 can't just walk into a museum and go, well, you 333 00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:29.079 better get some chemists in here and do that, because 334 00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:31.720 that's an authority over this. You know, you guys better, 335 00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:35.119 you know, just get on the ball. It's Mexico's business. 336 00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:38.680 But there are there are old Mech skeletons that are 337 00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:42.480 on display, and probably many more in labs, and I 338 00:23:42.519 --> 00:23:45.920 would love to see somebody actually give us some data 339 00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:47.440 off of Those'd be nice. 340 00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:50.079 To know, you know, at least a carbon date, if 341 00:23:50.119 --> 00:23:56.039 not an analysis to find out what kind of lifestyle 342 00:23:56.119 --> 00:23:56.519 they led. 343 00:23:57.480 --> 00:23:59.759 I mean, it's low hanging fruit and you know, and 344 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:03.400 are in display cases in public museums. It's not like 345 00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:06.680 it's some kind of like the Smithsonians are hiding giants 346 00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:09.640 in the basement kind of conspiracy. You know, they're just 347 00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:13.240 there for anybody to see. That's funny. 348 00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:18.240 Now ed in a recent video, you highlighted the fact, 349 00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:22.640 in your opinion, that the Omech shaved their heads. 350 00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:23.759 Yeah. 351 00:24:23.960 --> 00:24:26.559 No, I want to hear about this because in this 352 00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:30.799 I didn't see the whole thing. But you have them 353 00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:32.599 bald under their helmets. 354 00:24:33.559 --> 00:24:34.480 What's that all about? 355 00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:35.160 Oh? 356 00:24:35.319 --> 00:24:38.200 You know, that was kind of like the hook at 357 00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:41.160 the front that my convinced me to do that. I 358 00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:44.960 still I do think they're bald under the helmet. I 359 00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:48.200 think the purposely, I think they're shaving their heads. I 360 00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:51.640 think it's a I think it's a religious practice, similar 361 00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:55.519 to religious practices we see all over the world, you know, 362 00:24:55.640 --> 00:24:59.920 the Buddhists, the Hindus, the Friars with their funny li 363 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:02.200 little hole on the top of their head. That's yeah. 364 00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:07.160 Those kind of head shavings are called tonsure, and they 365 00:25:07.160 --> 00:25:12.079 are invariably connected to religious practices, and they're an outward 366 00:25:12.279 --> 00:25:16.559 show of your piety and devotion. And I think that 367 00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:18.720 the Olmech are doing the same sort of thing. I 368 00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:23.480 think this baldness can't be natural. They don't even show 369 00:25:23.519 --> 00:25:27.039 themselves with peach fuzz. They're really, you know, adhering to 370 00:25:27.079 --> 00:25:30.119 this shaving their heads. And I think it had something 371 00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:32.440 to do with religion. And we've kind of you know, 372 00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:36.359 there's so many things that you can glean if you 373 00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:40.720 just have the right perspective approaching the art, and this 374 00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:42.599 is one of the things. When I did my deep 375 00:25:42.680 --> 00:25:46.559 dive for the lecture series that I noted again and again, 376 00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:49.079 like where is a single I got obsessed with it, 377 00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:52.880 like I gotta find one guy with hair. I couldn't 378 00:25:53.240 --> 00:25:55.279 could not find a single guy with hair. And then 379 00:25:55.319 --> 00:26:00.079 I find women. I found like five different examples of 380 00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:05.640 women with mohawks, but they've got breasts and they've got skirts, 381 00:26:05.680 --> 00:26:08.799 so they're different. They're women, but they they have hair, 382 00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:13.880 but men don't. And so you know, I had a 383 00:26:13.920 --> 00:26:17.119 ton of neat suggestions from people when I put that 384 00:26:17.240 --> 00:26:20.279 video out. One of them was continually, Uh, well, they 385 00:26:20.319 --> 00:26:24.240 shaved their head because of lice. But you know, even 386 00:26:24.279 --> 00:26:26.039 if that was true, it is that means that the 387 00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:28.759 women were allowed to have lice but the men weren't. 388 00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:32.759 I mean, that's a weird thing. There was. There's also 389 00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:36.680 I got a thousand comments about the braids there. You know, 390 00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:41.799 probably people here listening are of the camp that believe 391 00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:46.279 that the Olmec were African. Yeah, and and they're they're 392 00:26:46.319 --> 00:26:49.160 a fiery group. Boy, they will not be told otherwise. 393 00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:54.519 But they bring up these braids. But they're only on 394 00:26:54.519 --> 00:26:57.119 one helmet, and they come from the top of the 395 00:26:57.160 --> 00:27:01.400 helmet and down, and they are more likely kets all 396 00:27:01.519 --> 00:27:04.480 feathers than braids. The way they have a little not 397 00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:07.200 jewel at the bottom that kind of tucked them and 398 00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:11.039 hold them down is just like out of some Maya 399 00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:15.279 head dresses. Yeah. So yeah, I don't think there's any 400 00:27:15.319 --> 00:27:19.000 hair there. There's no hair coming out from under the helmets. 401 00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:23.240