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<v Speaker 1>This episode contains mentions of graphic or sensitive material that

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<v Speaker 1>may be triggering. Listener discretion is advised.

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<v Speaker 2>Crime A.

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<v Speaker 3>Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the show made by

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<v Speaker 3>the Crime Junkie Ashley Flowers for those who are Crime

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<v Speaker 3>Junkie AF, and today I have not one, but two

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<v Speaker 3>special guests that are here to share their incredible story

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<v Speaker 3>and listen. I've covered a lot of cases, but this

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<v Speaker 3>one is wild. It made headlines in twenty fifteen when

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<v Speaker 3>it was falsely dubbed the Real Life Gone Girl, and

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<v Speaker 3>their story was also chronicled in a widely popular Netflix docuseries,

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<v Speaker 3>American Nightmare. You guys have also co authored a book

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<v Speaker 3>titled Victim f from crime Victims to suspects to Survivors,

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<v Speaker 3>and you're now advocating for the wrongfully accused and convicted.

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<v Speaker 3>And so I am so honored to welcome Denise and

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<v Speaker 3>Aaron Quinn, doctors of Physical Therapy too.

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<v Speaker 4>Crime Junkie AF Welcome.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Thank you for having us.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 3>I know that this weekend you actually right here in

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<v Speaker 3>Indy in the flesh, because you guys were at an

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<v Speaker 3>event working with an organization that does a lot for

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<v Speaker 3>the wrongfully convicted on your life bingo card. Is this

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<v Speaker 3>where you thought you would end up in what you'd

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<v Speaker 3>be doing?

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely not. Yeah, No, I envisioned working as a physical

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<v Speaker 2>therapist and yeah, maybe starting a family, which check check, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>doing that but all yeah, no, how could you even

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<v Speaker 2>imagine any of this?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and you want to Obviously, people can go read

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<v Speaker 3>your book, they can watch the documentary. But for those

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<v Speaker 3>who don't know your story, do you can you please

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<v Speaker 3>walk us through a little bit of how you found

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<v Speaker 3>yourself in the situation you are now, way back in

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<v Speaker 3>twenty fifteen.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So I moved to Vallejo, California in twenty fourteen

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<v Speaker 2>to pursue a physical therapy residency to specialize in working

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<v Speaker 2>with people with severe and eural logical disorders so traumatic

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<v Speaker 2>brain injury, spinal cord injury gbs als and so it

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<v Speaker 2>was a nine month residency. I was expecting to be

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<v Speaker 2>there temporarily. I was not expecting to meet the love

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<v Speaker 2>of my life, Aaron.

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<v Speaker 4>Spoiler alert, We have a happy ending.

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<v Speaker 2>But we Yeah, we met working at the hospital together

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<v Speaker 2>and we had a shared passion for what we were doing,

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<v Speaker 2>and we would just find ourselves at social gatherings just

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<v Speaker 2>kind of gravitating towards one another. We talked about family

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<v Speaker 2>and friends and sports and life, and I was surprised

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<v Speaker 2>at how quickly we fell in love, were you.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, yeah, without question? Was yeah, we just hit

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<v Speaker 1>off right away, and like we would just spend hours

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<v Speaker 1>talking to each other, and it was yeah, I'm pretty amazing.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, I mean, it was an ex did And also

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<v Speaker 2>the timing was not ideal because Aaron had just gotten

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<v Speaker 2>out of a relationship and his ex also worked in

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<v Speaker 2>the hospital with us, which plays into a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>Also what happened because she was the intended target of

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<v Speaker 2>the kidnapping, and the police chose not to believe Aaron,

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<v Speaker 2>partly because of the complicated relationship situation surrounding that. But again,

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<v Speaker 2>our love was undeniable, and.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, we just so that the when this all, when

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<v Speaker 3>the story starts, when when all this takes place, you

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<v Speaker 3>guys are actually like coming together right that evening to

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<v Speaker 3>like have a talk about like what is our relationships?

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<v Speaker 4>What are the next steps?

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<v Speaker 3>And obviously you guys decided you wanted to move forward, right, but.

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<v Speaker 4>Then your life took a left turn.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 4>What happened?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, we went to bed that night and we were

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<v Speaker 2>awoken into a voice saying, this is a robbery. We

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<v Speaker 2>aren't here to hurt you. Stay calm, and continued speaking

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<v Speaker 2>and instructing me to tie airon up. I was tied up.

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<v Speaker 2>They put blacked out swim goggles over our eyes, headphones

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<v Speaker 2>over our ears, with prerecorded messages of instruction. We were

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<v Speaker 2>hoping that it was just a robbery. We could hear

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<v Speaker 2>the other intruders downstairs opening drawers and a drill being used.

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<v Speaker 2>And so if we both just individually thought, okay, if

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<v Speaker 2>we're compliant and we do what they say, then they'll

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<v Speaker 2>take our belongings, take our money. That's fine, then it'll

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<v Speaker 2>all be over. But that's not what happened. And as

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<v Speaker 2>the night progressed, they separated me from Aaron, and then

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<v Speaker 2>I was told they were going to be taking me

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<v Speaker 2>for forty eight hours. And initially the voice he was speaking,

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<v Speaker 2>he said, you know this is we have a pro problem.

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<v Speaker 2>This wasn't intended for you. We've got to figure out

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<v Speaker 2>what we're going to do. But ultimately they decided to

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<v Speaker 2>continue with the kidnapping. And I was putting the trunk

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<v Speaker 2>of a car, what.

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<v Speaker 3>Are you thinking? But at that point, you like it

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<v Speaker 3>can't be a robbery in your head anymore.

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<v Speaker 1>No.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean that at that point, I knew it was

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<v Speaker 2>going to be taken, and I didn't know what was

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<v Speaker 2>going to happen next. And we were forced to take sedatives.

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<v Speaker 2>So at that point, the sedative's already kicked in. I've

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<v Speaker 2>got zip ties binding me. I don't know what's happening

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<v Speaker 2>with Aaron, and there's they're threatening us, you know, if

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<v Speaker 2>you don't cooperate, we're gonna cut your partner's face or

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<v Speaker 2>give electric shocks. We could hear tasers being or stun

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<v Speaker 2>guns being like zapped across the room as threats, obviously,

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<v Speaker 2>so it was hard. You don't want when it's just you,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe maybe you'd fight, maybe you'd try something, but when

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<v Speaker 2>they're threatening the person that you love, you don't want

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<v Speaker 2>to do or say anything that could lead them to

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<v Speaker 2>getting hurt or killed. And that's what they used against us,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. And it wasn't clear what the kidnappers were

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<v Speaker 2>going to ask of Aaron. They didn't specifically tell me

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<v Speaker 2>because again I thought, I mean, I knew he had

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<v Speaker 2>some money and is in the savings or something, but

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<v Speaker 2>there was nothing in our lives that was out of

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<v Speaker 2>the ordinary, that was that would lead us to think

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<v Speaker 2>that anything like this would happen.

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<v Speaker 3>So they take her away and you wake up, and

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<v Speaker 3>then what happens.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, they had provided instructions the night before saying that

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<v Speaker 1>I need to give them two payments of eighty five

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<v Speaker 1>hundred dollars to stay under the ten thousand dollars federal

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<v Speaker 1>mandate report limit.

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<v Speaker 4>They thought about it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so yeah, the kidnappers knew where I banked, they

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<v Speaker 1>knew where my parents lived, They had done their research

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<v Speaker 1>on me, and so they also had threatened if I

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<v Speaker 1>went to the police that they would go after my family.

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<v Speaker 1>They told me if I called the police, they would

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<v Speaker 1>kill Denise and basically just pay the money and we

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<v Speaker 1>can move on with our lives. So they put me

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<v Speaker 1>down at in my living room, which I had taped

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<v Speaker 1>off areas where I needed to stay. There was a

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<v Speaker 1>camera set up in the corner room saying that they're

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<v Speaker 1>going to monitor me. They also said they had put

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<v Speaker 1>a mirroring app on my phone so they could see

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<v Speaker 1>if I was texting or calling anyone. And I was

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<v Speaker 1>supposed to stay there till receiving instructions on going to

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<v Speaker 1>the bank and they were going to follow me to

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<v Speaker 1>the bank. Later. When I finally woke up from the seatives,

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<v Speaker 1>it was like midday and I got some emails from

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<v Speaker 1>the kidnappers communicating tell me about that they'll instruct I

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<v Speaker 1>just needed to wait, basically, and then at a certain

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<v Speaker 1>point I realized I can't trust these people. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>obviously I didn't trust them in the first place, but

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<v Speaker 1>it realized I needed to get help, and uh, eventually

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<v Speaker 1>I decided to call nine one one, which is still

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<v Speaker 1>like the hardest decision I ever had to make, because

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<v Speaker 1>my feeling is if I call the police, I know

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to be safe, but if they can not

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<v Speaker 1>per see I called nine one one that they will

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<v Speaker 1>kill deniece and they were asking for amount of money

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<v Speaker 1>that I could give them. But UH figured if I

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<v Speaker 1>show up with the money, they could just take me

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<v Speaker 1>and kill us both and then there's no witnesses. So

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<v Speaker 1>when the police. But I decided to call the police,

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<v Speaker 1>and when they show up the house or meet immediately accusatory, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>asking if I've been partying, if I was on drugs,

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<v Speaker 1>and I was like, I've been drugged by the kidnappers,

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<v Speaker 1>but they kept on asking me, are you partying? Did

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<v Speaker 1>you have a party last night coming on? No, but

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<v Speaker 1>that's what they seem to focus on.

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<v Speaker 4>Do you feel like you were like in the upside down?

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<v Speaker 3>Like I feel like I would be so taken aback,

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<v Speaker 3>but like I call you for help.

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<v Speaker 4>What the fuck are you talking about?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Even the the camera that the kidnappers had installed

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<v Speaker 1>was making some noises. They just went over and unplugged

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<v Speaker 1>the camera and I was like, what are you doing?

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<v Speaker 1>Like there wasn't a did not seem like they were

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<v Speaker 1>taking any of this seriously, just like no gloves, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>no gloves, yeah yeah. And eventually they seem to back off,

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<v Speaker 1>but they said like, come to the station give a statement,

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<v Speaker 1>which I was like, I'm here to help to all

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<v Speaker 1>get station. And I kind of already knew that they

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<v Speaker 1>would at some point think that was just like love

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<v Speaker 1>triangle that went astray between Denise and my ex. But

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<v Speaker 1>I was like, I know that this actually happened. The

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<v Speaker 1>evidence supports me. Unfortunately, I went in with like a

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<v Speaker 1>mindset of an innocent person and you can't actually do that,

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<v Speaker 1>because they very quickly put me in prison clothes at

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<v Speaker 1>the police station and then started interrogating me for about

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<v Speaker 1>eighteen hours, saying that I need to you confess that

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<v Speaker 1>I killed Denise. I'm just making up this crazy story

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<v Speaker 1>that no one would believe. And it's either I it

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<v Speaker 1>was an accident or I'm a cold, calculated monster. But

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<v Speaker 1>there was no question that Denise was dead. Went in

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<v Speaker 1>to tective said, I'm not looking for alive Denise. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>looking for dead Denise. And I've accepted that and you

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<v Speaker 1>need to accept that. So they just hammered away from me,

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<v Speaker 1>at me for hours and and I.

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<v Speaker 2>Mean they stripped him down, naked, took photographs of his

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<v Speaker 2>naked body, then put him in jail clothes. So it

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<v Speaker 2>was just everything was very strategic to break him him down,

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<v Speaker 2>which is what they do, and they isolated him from

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<v Speaker 2>his family. His family was there. He kept asking for

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<v Speaker 2>his family. They said, I don't know where your family is,

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<v Speaker 2>and they wanted to see him.

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<v Speaker 3>And it's like it's like they could only operate in

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<v Speaker 3>the box that they knew and what what happened to

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<v Speaker 3>you guys was so calculated and abnormal they could they

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<v Speaker 3>only look at it through this like boyfriend kills girlfriend lens.

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<v Speaker 1>And they also didn't actually investigate anything. And we find

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<v Speaker 1>out later that they literally didn't look at a single thing,

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<v Speaker 1>and they didn't bother reach out to other departments, which

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<v Speaker 1>if they had, they would have found out the mo

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<v Speaker 1>that was done in our case. There were similar crimes prior.

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<v Speaker 2>To you guys, prior to us in the Bay Area.

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<v Speaker 1>So they just straight up didn't do anything and just said, well,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't believe them, and they're going to try to

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<v Speaker 1>get a confession. That was like their only goal. Even

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<v Speaker 1>after I asked for attorney, they didn't get me attorney.

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<v Speaker 1>They sent my brother in who's an FBI special agent,

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<v Speaker 1>telling him to try to get a confession from me.

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<v Speaker 1>He's the only reason why I got an attorney because

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<v Speaker 1>when they allowed him to leave, he was straight up

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<v Speaker 1>in the parking lot googling criminal defense attorneys for murder

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<v Speaker 1>in Vallejo and he ended up finding my attorney, Dan Russo,

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<v Speaker 1>who was the only reason why I got out of

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<v Speaker 1>interrogation cell, because they were just going to keep me

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<v Speaker 1>there indefinitely.

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<v Speaker 4>Until you broke exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>And actually the detective told my brother, I would like

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<v Speaker 1>to try a few more things and so get me

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<v Speaker 1>attorney because it does not matter to them, because because

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<v Speaker 1>they just can't they can hold you and just do

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<v Speaker 1>that to you, and they'll and people generally don't think

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<v Speaker 1>about like why would I confess to something I didn't do?

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<v Speaker 1>And that's by if the hour after hour after hour,

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<v Speaker 1>that's the only thing that they'll accept. They kept on

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<v Speaker 1>telling me, you need to start the story over. That

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<v Speaker 1>makes sense. We can't start with it. You know, three

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<v Speaker 1>people breaking in your house that didn't happen, so tell

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<v Speaker 1>us that you did it. And often a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>people confess not thinking that they did the crime, just

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<v Speaker 1>to get it to stop, because it's psychological torture. It's horrible.

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<v Speaker 3>I've seen it happen over and over where it's it's

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<v Speaker 3>they're like, you can get out of this room, and

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<v Speaker 3>there in everyone's mind it's like, okay, well I can

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<v Speaker 3>get help when I'm out of this room. Right now,

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<v Speaker 3>I'm by myself. I'm with them, Like, once I'm out

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<v Speaker 3>of this room, we can all figure this out. They'll

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<v Speaker 3>they'll see that I didn't do it. But there is

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<v Speaker 3>no getting out of that room once they get what

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<v Speaker 3>they want.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, And that's a thing. Confessions get convictions, even false confessions.

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<v Speaker 2>So and jurors just don't understand the pressure that is

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<v Speaker 2>put on the psychological manipulation. A lot of people think, well,

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<v Speaker 2>why would you confess to something you didn't do. Wait

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<v Speaker 2>till you're in that position and they're trained to break

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<v Speaker 2>you down.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there's about eighty percent conviction rate if you confess,

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<v Speaker 1>regardless of physical evidence. So there's been cases where someone

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<v Speaker 1>falsely confessed they weren't even in the same state and

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<v Speaker 1>they got conviction because of that. And that's a problem

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<v Speaker 1>with our system here is that people were so caught

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<v Speaker 1>up on gain confessions as like a gold standard. But

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<v Speaker 1>it doesn't matter. The confessions shouldn't matter unless there's actual

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<v Speaker 1>evidence to back it up, which.

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<v Speaker 3>There is a law corpus dilecti, like there is supposed

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<v Speaker 3>to be that you're not supposed to be able to

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<v Speaker 3>convict someone just on a confession. You are supposed to

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<v Speaker 3>be able to show in physical events circumstantial evidence reasons

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<v Speaker 3>why they could have done it as well stuff to

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<v Speaker 3>back up that confession. But I've seen so many instances

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<v Speaker 3>where that just like goes out the window.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean in the most tragic thing of it

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<v Speaker 2>all is that they had Aaron's phone. They should have

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<v Speaker 2>been monitoring it. Someone put it on airplane mode, and

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<v Speaker 2>that first night they missed phone calls from the kidnapper

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<v Speaker 2>who was holding me captive. They could have traced it,

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<v Speaker 2>they could have rescued me, they could have spared one

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<v Speaker 2>of the rapes that I had. Yeah, so it and

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<v Speaker 2>it's just all because of their tunnel vision. They were

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<v Speaker 2>just so focused on Aaron and they missed evidence that

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<v Speaker 2>could have led them to be the heroes in this.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and to continue how extreme it went. So police

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<v Speaker 1>said I had killed Denise. I was able to get

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<v Speaker 1>out of the police department. But eventually Denise was released

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<v Speaker 1>by the kidnappers, and instead of taking it seriously, the

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<v Speaker 1>police within hours said it was a hoax and that

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<v Speaker 1>they try to pin Denis sign against each other, saying

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<v Speaker 1>that one of us will get community, but not both

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<v Speaker 1>to say that it's all made up.

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<v Speaker 3>And at that point, is that just to like cover

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<v Speaker 3>their own ass or did they do? You think they

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<v Speaker 3>really like believe this in their hard of hearts.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean they were angry. If you see the press

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<v Speaker 2>conference Kenny park gives saying that it's a while goose Chase,

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<v Speaker 2>We've plundered valuable resources on nothing, So I guess I'm

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<v Speaker 2>nothing but he's smug, he is, he's angry, and we

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<v Speaker 2>find out later that the chief of police instructed him

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<v Speaker 2>before he went out there to go burn that bitch.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's the mindset that they were in. All

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<v Speaker 2>of these men had no idea anything about me. They

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<v Speaker 2>interviewed my family. My family said all these positive things

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<v Speaker 2>about me. One of the things that clicked to the

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<v Speaker 2>lead detective was my mom told him that I was

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<v Speaker 2>molested when I was twelve, and he was like, oh, well,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, that could be a reason for some to

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<v Speaker 2>make up a story like this. And at that point too,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm still missing. My mom doesn't know if I'm really

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<v Speaker 2>alive or dead, and she's having the lead detective say, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>she was molested, Okay, then she you know, she must

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<v Speaker 2>be suspicious.

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<v Speaker 3>And they didn't know you from Adam before that, so

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00:16:23.559 --> 00:16:25.960
<v Speaker 3>like you guys have a history with law enforcement, like right,

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00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:27.919
<v Speaker 3>and again I decided.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Aaron's brothers in the FBI, like how you know,

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<v Speaker 2>like what, Yeah, it's hard to understand that level of

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<v Speaker 2>hate and that just that closed minded tunnel vision.

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<v Speaker 1>Is just yeah, And I honestly can't tell you what

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00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:47.039
<v Speaker 1>the police were thinking, because like the mental gymnastics that

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<v Speaker 1>they had to go through to get to a murder

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<v Speaker 1>to now we're doing this together to end where's labeled

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<v Speaker 1>the real life Gone Girl.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't even know what the end goal would have

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00:16:58.240 --> 00:16:59.519
<v Speaker 4>been in their mind.

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<v Speaker 1>They were saying. At least they mentioned that we were

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00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:06.160
<v Speaker 1>looking for our fifteen minutes of fame, which I was like,

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00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:09.880
<v Speaker 1>we have doctorate degrees. I mean, I I think I

318
00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:12.880
<v Speaker 1>had a Facebook page. I don't like, we're not people

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00:17:12.920 --> 00:17:16.519
<v Speaker 1>trying to be out, you know, on social media, trying

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<v Speaker 1>to expand ourselves like we're Denise's.

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<v Speaker 4>There was nothing that would have given them that indication.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and again they didn't. They can't express like why

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00:17:26.599 --> 00:17:29.519
<v Speaker 1>we would like any motivation to it, and it.

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<v Speaker 2>Literally was they swear they just saw the movie and

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00:17:32.119 --> 00:17:34.400
<v Speaker 2>they're like, aha, you know, I mean, And that's a

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<v Speaker 2>scary part that these trained professionals, including the FBI, you

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<v Speaker 2>would think would know better and go buy a different

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<v Speaker 2>standard instead of getting their tips from fiction.

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<v Speaker 1>And to the point of where they put my phone

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<v Speaker 1>on airplane mode the cannappers had called, they didn't track

331
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<v Speaker 1>those phone calls till twenty four hours later they actually

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00:17:55.759 --> 00:17:57.920
<v Speaker 1>tracked them up to South Lake Tallahoe. They never went

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<v Speaker 1>to South Lake Tahoe to examine uh the area at all,

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00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:04.680
<v Speaker 1>which we later find out Denise was held in Tahoe.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh And after the press conference or to police sow

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00:18:10.839 --> 00:18:13.480
<v Speaker 1>as a hoax, the kidnappers even sent emails going like

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00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:16.839
<v Speaker 1>this actually happened. We'll give you all this evidence of

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00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:19.000
<v Speaker 1>like because they were stealing cars on the island, they

339
00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:21.839
<v Speaker 1>had broken other people's houses there, they had been doing

340
00:18:21.880 --> 00:18:24.000
<v Speaker 1>a string of crimes that they're like, this is what

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00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:27.200
<v Speaker 1>we've been doing, and we did kidnap them. And the

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00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:31.160
<v Speaker 1>police said whenever our lawyers was potentially writing the emails,

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<v Speaker 1>or my brother was writing the emails, or we made

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<v Speaker 1>it up because I had I was on next door,

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00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:39.759
<v Speaker 1>which is like, you know, a community message board. So

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00:18:39.799 --> 00:18:42.880
<v Speaker 1>they said, Aaron's on an active member on next store,

347
00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:45.200
<v Speaker 1>so he knew about these crimes. I'm like, how the what?

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<v Speaker 2>And there's details in the emails that were not posted

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00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:53.240
<v Speaker 2>on next door that you wouldn't be able to know,

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<v Speaker 2>like the specific things that they stole, and then things

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<v Speaker 2>that they didn't steal. They chose not to steal that

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00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:02.799
<v Speaker 2>over Xbox because they already had one, or so there's

353
00:19:02.839 --> 00:19:05.440
<v Speaker 2>just things in it that like there's just no way

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00:19:05.559 --> 00:19:07.119
<v Speaker 2>we would have had that information.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, it's just like, what's so insane to me is

356
00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:13.640
<v Speaker 3>is this narrow mindedness, Like fine, look at you guys,

357
00:19:13.640 --> 00:19:17.319
<v Speaker 3>sure exactly, but like also while you're at least exploring

358
00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:20.640
<v Speaker 3>all of the options, but they truly went on a

359
00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:23.559
<v Speaker 3>hunt for just the pieces that fit into this theory

360
00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:25.480
<v Speaker 3>that they made up out of nowhere.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the lead detective literally says, I'm a puzzle maker,

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00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:31.640
<v Speaker 2>and I'm gonna fit the puzzles together to make it

363
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<v Speaker 2>look like you're a monster.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean she said that out loud.

365
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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I recently reviewed the interrogations and I was like,

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<v Speaker 2>oh my, it's just every time. It's still hard that time. Now, Oh,

367
00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:49.000
<v Speaker 2>he's still working on payroll and he's going to get

368
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<v Speaker 2>the pension. He got promoted, he.

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<v Speaker 1>Got awarded, he was given Officer of the Year that year.

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<v Speaker 1>He's also was ahead of the union for nine years.

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<v Speaker 1>So he has tremendous power. And we've heard from other

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<v Speaker 1>officers in that department who say that this is what

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<v Speaker 1>he does. He just bullies people. We know that he's

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<v Speaker 1>withheld evidence in other cases. He lied on sworn statements

375
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<v Speaker 1>in our lawsuit. He's I would say it slightly. He's

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<v Speaker 1>just a dirty cop that has no accountability and no

377
00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:25.599
<v Speaker 1>one holds him to any sort standard. And now he's

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<v Speaker 1>going to retire with full pension and the city will

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<v Speaker 1>be paying him. He makes over two hundred and fifty

380
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<v Speaker 1>thousand a year and they'll just be paying him for

381
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<v Speaker 1>his retirement.

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<v Speaker 4>Does that make you want to flip the table? I

383
00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:38.039
<v Speaker 4>want to flip the fucking.

384
00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:41.880
<v Speaker 1>It's well, yes, it does, maybe a little bit more

385
00:20:41.880 --> 00:20:47.359
<v Speaker 1>than that too. The problem is, like in Dean Sire,

386
00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:50.200
<v Speaker 1>in the grand scheme of things, like the Lucky Ones,

387
00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:54.640
<v Speaker 1>out of this we weren't convicted, but that took us

388
00:20:54.839 --> 00:20:57.359
<v Speaker 1>hiring criminal defense attorneys that cost us one hundred and

389
00:20:57.400 --> 00:20:58.319
<v Speaker 1>forty thousand dollars.

390
00:20:59.160 --> 00:20:59.960
<v Speaker 4>My brother's FBA.

391
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<v Speaker 3>Don you think about that like that, Like one hundred

392
00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:06.640
<v Speaker 3>and forty thousand dollars is not is not something that

393
00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:09.720
<v Speaker 3>a huge majority of the world has has at their disposal,

394
00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:12.000
<v Speaker 3>much less like that they can actually like put up.

395
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<v Speaker 3>It's the system is.

396
00:21:14.839 --> 00:21:18.240
<v Speaker 4>Not made for the people who often need it the most.

397
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<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, and I mean my the only reason we

398
00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:23.720
<v Speaker 2>could afford it my family was because my grandma passed away.

399
00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:26.400
<v Speaker 2>The year before and my dad got an inheritance. It's like,

400
00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:28.160
<v Speaker 2>how would I have even you.

401
00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:31.480
<v Speaker 3>Know, you'll lose homes, You'll lose like exactly, you'll go

402
00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:34.400
<v Speaker 3>into debt, like hoping that your life.

403
00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:37.400
<v Speaker 2>We're both fortunate to have the families that we have,

404
00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:40.240
<v Speaker 2>Like I've got a big family. Remember talking to my cousin,

405
00:21:40.279 --> 00:21:42.359
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, how do I get because he's the first

406
00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:44.200
<v Speaker 2>one I saw And I'm like, okay, we need a

407
00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:45.880
<v Speaker 2>criminal defense attorney. I'm like, how am I going to

408
00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:47.559
<v Speaker 2>pay for this? And he's like, don't worry, and he's

409
00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:50.319
<v Speaker 2>we're gonna figure it out. We'll all be there to

410
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:53.079
<v Speaker 2>support you. But it just it is daunting, like how

411
00:21:53.079 --> 00:21:55.599
<v Speaker 2>do we even how do you? How do you fight

412
00:21:55.640 --> 00:21:59.240
<v Speaker 2>the FBI? Like who do you turn to? I mean,

413
00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:02.640
<v Speaker 2>at one point, breaking point, I turned to Aaron sobbing

414
00:22:02.680 --> 00:22:04.720
<v Speaker 2>because my mom was sobbing in the next room. She's like,

415
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:06.759
<v Speaker 2>why are they doing this to my baby girl? And

416
00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:09.559
<v Speaker 2>I don't have an answer to give her. And I'm

417
00:22:09.559 --> 00:22:11.519
<v Speaker 2>crying to him, going like who do we call? Like

418
00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:14.160
<v Speaker 2>Obama's president at the time, Like do we call him?

419
00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:16.960
<v Speaker 2>Like what a ridiculous statement, you know, like he's got

420
00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:20.680
<v Speaker 2>more important things, But that's just the desperation and the

421
00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:26.039
<v Speaker 2>power of the highest agency attacking you.

422
00:22:26.200 --> 00:22:27.640
<v Speaker 3>Which is like to go back to I mean, this

423
00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:30.200
<v Speaker 3>guy who's gonna go live his life with this pension.

424
00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:33.279
<v Speaker 3>There's like it feels like there's no accountability. No, like

425
00:22:33.640 --> 00:22:38.440
<v Speaker 3>you do. You wield so much power and you're given praise,

426
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:41.160
<v Speaker 3>but like when things go wrong, it's like, ah, innocent mistake.

427
00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:42.640
<v Speaker 3>I mean like it's almost like that's what they chalk

428
00:22:42.680 --> 00:22:43.759
<v Speaker 3>it up to all the time, like, ah, it was

429
00:22:43.799 --> 00:22:45.440
<v Speaker 3>a mistake. You know, we tried to fix it. No

430
00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:45.880
<v Speaker 3>big deal.

431
00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:47.720
<v Speaker 4>But okay, it is a big deal.

432
00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:50.839
<v Speaker 3>Like people lose their livelihoods to like if they end

433
00:22:50.920 --> 00:22:52.640
<v Speaker 3>up on the other side. Most people don't end up

434
00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:53.359
<v Speaker 3>on the other side of it.

435
00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:56.839
<v Speaker 1>Well, they also kept on saying that this case was

436
00:22:56.839 --> 00:23:00.079
<v Speaker 1>too bizarre or too crazy for anyone to solve. And

437
00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:02.559
<v Speaker 1>then you actually look at like, well, you know, tracking

438
00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:05.559
<v Speaker 1>the phone calls, you know, reach out at your job. Yeah, exactly.

439
00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:08.960
<v Speaker 1>So they try to say that they weren't malicious, they

440
00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:11.400
<v Speaker 1>just made mistakes.

441
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:15.559
<v Speaker 2>And still blaming us. So we pursued a lawsuit against

442
00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:18.000
<v Speaker 2>the city and the police department, and throughout the whole

443
00:23:18.039 --> 00:23:22.960
<v Speaker 2>thing were lies and well, we couldn't believe them because

444
00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:26.400
<v Speaker 2>they weren't acting like victims, lying saying that I didn't

445
00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:28.000
<v Speaker 2>say that I was a victim, even though I did

446
00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:29.960
<v Speaker 2>say I was a victim of kidnapping.

447
00:23:30.039 --> 00:23:34.839
<v Speaker 3>And I'd be so angry at that point too, and

448
00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:37.720
<v Speaker 3>so like, I, yes, you're a victim, but I also

449
00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:38.079
<v Speaker 3>be like.

450
00:23:38.119 --> 00:23:41.160
<v Speaker 4>I don't have to act any certain way for you.

451
00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:43.200
<v Speaker 3>You're coming from like my whole life.

452
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:48.200
<v Speaker 1>What's important though, there's no set way that victims act.

453
00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:52.759
<v Speaker 1>And even during our lawsuit, weren't opposing the chief of police.

454
00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:56.599
<v Speaker 1>He's told that, yeah, I'm trained that victims all act differently,

455
00:23:56.640 --> 00:23:59.640
<v Speaker 1>and so like how it's a victim supposed to act,

456
00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:02.319
<v Speaker 1>and like what we did was I called for help.

457
00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:05.359
<v Speaker 1>I answered all your questions. I like gave you my blood,

458
00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:07.400
<v Speaker 1>my DNA, I literally gave you a clothes off my back.

459
00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:10.240
<v Speaker 1>And he's answered all the questions that she was asked

460
00:24:10.359 --> 00:24:12.680
<v Speaker 1>until they accused her of her crime, and then she

461
00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:16.079
<v Speaker 1>got attorney, which is all right, but they said they

462
00:24:16.119 --> 00:24:19.559
<v Speaker 1>told me that she lawyered up and therefore that was

463
00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:22.319
<v Speaker 1>a sign of guilt, not excluding the fact that the

464
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:24.960
<v Speaker 1>accused her of her crime, which you know, gat defense

465
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:26.200
<v Speaker 1>attorney is a good idea.

466
00:24:26.680 --> 00:24:29.160
<v Speaker 2>They offered me a profit of agreement, and I'm like,

467
00:24:29.240 --> 00:24:32.640
<v Speaker 2>what is that so, like, I mean, of course I'm

468
00:24:32.759 --> 00:24:35.079
<v Speaker 2>going to get an attorney. You know, it's like you're

469
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:37.559
<v Speaker 2>diagnosed with cancer and then people go, oh my god,

470
00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:41.240
<v Speaker 2>you got an oncologist, Like, well that's so weird. Yeah,

471
00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:42.000
<v Speaker 2>like what.

472
00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:48.400
<v Speaker 1>So all of this was to say is like the

473
00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:54.279
<v Speaker 1>system can railroad people. And we have met people who

474
00:24:54.279 --> 00:24:59.480
<v Speaker 1>have spent decades in prison and they are innocent and

475
00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:04.000
<v Speaker 1>they eventually, you know, very few get exonerated, but they

476
00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:07.480
<v Speaker 1>get their lives stolen. And there's tends to be very

477
00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:13.799
<v Speaker 1>little accountability for the officers who do this type of thing,

478
00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:19.279
<v Speaker 1>so especially when it's like in this almost wilfully ignorant

479
00:25:19.480 --> 00:25:23.279
<v Speaker 1>or malicious way to protect themselves over protecting the public.

480
00:25:23.519 --> 00:25:27.640
<v Speaker 1>And unfortunately now is that the officers involved in the case,

481
00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:31.039
<v Speaker 1>but the supervisors who don't do anything about it. And

482
00:25:31.160 --> 00:25:34.799
<v Speaker 1>went to the local prosecutor and she said, we asked them,

483
00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:39.240
<v Speaker 1>like who watches the watchmen, right, like who police the police?

484
00:25:39.319 --> 00:25:42.680
<v Speaker 1>And her response was, well, they do their own investigation,

485
00:25:42.839 --> 00:25:45.000
<v Speaker 1>that they bring it to us, then we'll pursue it.

486
00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:47.039
<v Speaker 1>So I'm like, oh, you get to grade your own

487
00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:49.000
<v Speaker 1>paper and guess what, they always get an eight plus

488
00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:49.440
<v Speaker 1>and then they.

489
00:25:49.519 --> 00:25:51.000
<v Speaker 4>And they never get to go to the principal's office.

490
00:25:51.079 --> 00:25:52.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and then they never turn away from it. So

491
00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:56.039
<v Speaker 1>I'm like, so they are complicit with that too, and

492
00:25:56.079 --> 00:26:02.200
<v Speaker 1>that just erodes like confidence, and it hurts, hurts the

493
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:04.359
<v Speaker 1>good officers who are doing their job because of bad

494
00:26:04.359 --> 00:26:09.319
<v Speaker 1>officers get promoted, and it affects the culture and like

495
00:26:09.720 --> 00:26:13.480
<v Speaker 1>at every level. And that's some of the hardest parts

496
00:26:13.519 --> 00:26:16.400
<v Speaker 1>of this. Like you can understand, like there's the kidnappers,

497
00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:18.920
<v Speaker 1>aren't you know, quote bad people, or there's people out

498
00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:21.000
<v Speaker 1>there who want hurt or have power in that way,

499
00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:23.960
<v Speaker 1>that's easier to understand than the quote the good people

500
00:26:24.519 --> 00:26:27.680
<v Speaker 1>doing the bad things. And then not again, not having

501
00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:30.920
<v Speaker 1>any sort of safeguard for that, they can just do

502
00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:35.200
<v Speaker 1>that to you. And again, we're lucky that we had

503
00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:39.680
<v Speaker 1>the resources financially and the support systems that with our

504
00:26:39.720 --> 00:26:43.000
<v Speaker 1>friends and family. And then a few months later when

505
00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:46.880
<v Speaker 1>the kidnappers attacked another family, which is even more of

506
00:26:46.920 --> 00:26:49.839
<v Speaker 1>the tragedy because you when you falsely accuse or wrongly

507
00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:52.519
<v Speaker 1>convict people, you let the real perpetrator go. And so

508
00:26:52.599 --> 00:26:55.559
<v Speaker 1>he was emboldened to attack another family. And thankfully there

509
00:26:55.599 --> 00:27:00.559
<v Speaker 1>was detective on our first case connected him to our crime.

510
00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:03.480
<v Speaker 1>And that's why we were proven innocent. We were not

511
00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:05.319
<v Speaker 1>not guilty, because it's one thing to be like, well,

512
00:27:05.880 --> 00:27:08.880
<v Speaker 1>yeah they're still a little shady, but we're you know,

513
00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:11.519
<v Speaker 1>we can't prove it, but they probably did it because

514
00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:14.599
<v Speaker 1>for whatever reason they thought. But we're actually just proven innocent,

515
00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:16.880
<v Speaker 1>which is so rare.

516
00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:19.039
<v Speaker 3>And yeah, she made the hero wall. When I was

517
00:27:19.079 --> 00:27:21.920
<v Speaker 3>watching her in the documentary, she was amazing. So there

518
00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:23.640
<v Speaker 3>are there are They're not all bad, like there are

519
00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:26.000
<v Speaker 3>no good ones doing the work, but it's really hard

520
00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:27.680
<v Speaker 3>for them to do good work because they have to

521
00:27:27.680 --> 00:27:28.400
<v Speaker 3>wade through.

522
00:27:28.359 --> 00:27:29.160
<v Speaker 4>So much bullshit.

523
00:27:29.400 --> 00:27:33.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and Misty the detective was has told us that

524
00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:36.640
<v Speaker 1>she had people not like vallejoll went call her back.

525
00:27:36.680 --> 00:27:41.240
<v Speaker 1>There's like lack of communication, like everyone's like territorial and

526
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:45.720
<v Speaker 1>like it's almost like pissing matches, like it's like that childish.

527
00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:49.160
<v Speaker 1>And she was really disheartened that way because she thought, hey,

528
00:27:49.160 --> 00:27:51.440
<v Speaker 1>we're all in here, let's let's catch this guy, Like

529
00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:54.920
<v Speaker 1>let's do the right thing, Like this is man is

530
00:27:55.039 --> 00:27:57.119
<v Speaker 1>break into people's homes in the middle night he was

531
00:27:57.839 --> 00:28:00.880
<v Speaker 1>he's raping people like, this is a really dangerous person.

532
00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:07.079
<v Speaker 1>This is not This is not someone who was doing

533
00:28:07.160 --> 00:28:09.160
<v Speaker 1>like selling drugs because they had no other way to

534
00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:11.279
<v Speaker 1>make money or that or that's what they grew up with.

535
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:14.519
<v Speaker 1>He was trained, he's a Harvard lawyer. Lawyer or trained

536
00:28:14.519 --> 00:28:15.240
<v Speaker 1>at Harvard law.

537
00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:16.319
<v Speaker 2>Uh.

538
00:28:16.599 --> 00:28:18.599
<v Speaker 1>This man had like a lot of privilege in his life.

539
00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:20.720
<v Speaker 1>He just he's a pretor and you want he wanted

540
00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:23.680
<v Speaker 1>to attack people and do it and he's a careful

541
00:28:23.720 --> 00:28:24.839
<v Speaker 1>and patient criminal.

542
00:28:25.240 --> 00:28:27.200
<v Speaker 3>Did he do did the next family what he'd done?

543
00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:29.279
<v Speaker 3>You like, like, does it seem like he stalked them,

544
00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:30.319
<v Speaker 3>knew about their lives?

545
00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:35.720
<v Speaker 2>And I don't, Uh, I don't know if the stocking

546
00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:38.519
<v Speaker 2>was as long, or if they if there was a

547
00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:44.960
<v Speaker 2>specific reason that he targeted targeted them other than maybe

548
00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:47.079
<v Speaker 2>just the location of their house. I think it was

549
00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:50.079
<v Speaker 2>near a fire road, so that's where he escaped out of.

550
00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:53.440
<v Speaker 2>But I don't, I don't know exactly.

551
00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:57.319
<v Speaker 4>Did you guys ever get an answered as to why you.

552
00:28:56.519 --> 00:28:59.960
<v Speaker 2>No, not a definitive answer. No. And again it's it's

553
00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:05.880
<v Speaker 2>the I can't trust the investigation, so you know they've

554
00:29:06.039 --> 00:29:10.240
<v Speaker 2>completely missed the opportunity to catch him even after I

555
00:29:10.279 --> 00:29:12.640
<v Speaker 2>was released. Maybe they didn't rescue me, but they had

556
00:29:12.680 --> 00:29:15.880
<v Speaker 2>the calls trace them to Southlake Tahoe. They didn't. From

557
00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:18.599
<v Speaker 2>all the police reports we looked at, including the FBI report,

558
00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:22.680
<v Speaker 2>there's no indication that they actually investigated. And again they

559
00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:27.119
<v Speaker 2>attacked another family. And even after that, so our attorneys

560
00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:29.279
<v Speaker 2>were writing the Department of Justice to say, we need

561
00:29:29.319 --> 00:29:33.119
<v Speaker 2>new investigators, like this is there The lead FBI agent

562
00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:36.119
<v Speaker 2>had had a prior relationship with Aaron's X, so there's

563
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:41.079
<v Speaker 2>a conflict of interest. You know, there's clearly people's judgments

564
00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:44.920
<v Speaker 2>are are we can't trust them? Yeah, But then we

565
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:48.559
<v Speaker 2>had the djsa, it's not our problem and it's not

566
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:51.599
<v Speaker 2>a problem, and they can stay on the case, and

567
00:29:51.640 --> 00:29:53.720
<v Speaker 2>we're like, how, I mean, just the.

568
00:29:53.880 --> 00:29:54.920
<v Speaker 4>It makes you feel crazy?

569
00:29:55.319 --> 00:29:57.839
<v Speaker 2>Well yeah, I mean you really do. Like I was like,

570
00:29:58.319 --> 00:30:01.680
<v Speaker 2>is this my twilight zone? And I literally go crazy,

571
00:30:01.799 --> 00:30:04.319
<v Speaker 2>like this can't be a reality.

572
00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:07.359
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's like it just feels so black and white

573
00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:09.240
<v Speaker 3>what is right and what is wrong? And for people

574
00:30:09.240 --> 00:30:10.640
<v Speaker 3>to be like, but this is just the way it is.

575
00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:13.640
<v Speaker 3>You're like so wrong, Like oh.

576
00:30:13.400 --> 00:30:16.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we got a lot of people in that position.

577
00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:20.279
<v Speaker 2>Being like, oh, I've worked you know, law enforcement for

578
00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:23.200
<v Speaker 2>twenty years. I'm the professional, and just like what, I

579
00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:26.640
<v Speaker 2>don't know what you've been doing, but that scares me. Yeah, definitely,

580
00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:30.519
<v Speaker 2>if you're if you're considered the best.

581
00:30:30.759 --> 00:30:34.680
<v Speaker 1>Yes, yeah, they were. We were told often this is

582
00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:39.200
<v Speaker 1>like how things are done. And then my brother is better.

583
00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:42.079
<v Speaker 1>My brother's one of the smartest people I know. And like,

584
00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:44.359
<v Speaker 1>I know a lot of colleague colleagues who are like

585
00:30:44.720 --> 00:30:48.039
<v Speaker 1>dedicades smart agents, and we just happen to get frankly,

586
00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:54.480
<v Speaker 1>just incompetent and shitty agents on the They aren't they're

587
00:30:54.519 --> 00:30:57.480
<v Speaker 1>not equipped to investigate a case like this or that's

588
00:30:57.480 --> 00:31:01.319
<v Speaker 1>not what their history was, and they shive got more help.

589
00:31:01.359 --> 00:31:02.880
<v Speaker 1>But they would tell us like this is how things

590
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:05.039
<v Speaker 1>are done, Like well, actually, I know these aren't how

591
00:31:05.079 --> 00:31:07.480
<v Speaker 1>things are done, and if if this is how it's done,

592
00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:11.079
<v Speaker 1>then like we should probably change, like uh, and we're

593
00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:14.440
<v Speaker 1>not expecting like law enforcem be infallible. It's really hard

594
00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:19.400
<v Speaker 1>to solve cases. People make mistakes, but like you need

595
00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:22.880
<v Speaker 1>to like upgrade and like evolve and like and not

596
00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:25.839
<v Speaker 1>just like sit there and be like but yeah, this

597
00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:28.759
<v Speaker 1>is okay, this is acceptable that we didn't do our

598
00:31:28.839 --> 00:31:32.839
<v Speaker 1>job and then protect themselves. And that's incredibly frustrating to

599
00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:36.000
<v Speaker 1>be in that field, Like we work in the medical field.

600
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:38.279
<v Speaker 1>Like you know, in the medical field, we used to lobotomies,

601
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:40.799
<v Speaker 1>like we did some terrible stuff, but we don't do

602
00:31:40.839 --> 00:31:44.200
<v Speaker 1>those anymore because you learn from it. So like any

603
00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:48.039
<v Speaker 1>professionals should learn and change. And like even the city

604
00:31:48.039 --> 00:31:50.640
<v Speaker 1>of LeHo, the police department said they didn't make any

605
00:31:50.680 --> 00:31:56.279
<v Speaker 1>procedural changes after this case, and so they don't want

606
00:31:56.279 --> 00:31:59.440
<v Speaker 1>to learn and they rather blame us. And that's part

607
00:31:59.480 --> 00:32:03.640
<v Speaker 1>of the reason why we keep telling our stories that. Yeah, again,

608
00:32:03.720 --> 00:32:07.960
<v Speaker 1>the justice Department can like railroad people, and from outside

609
00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:11.119
<v Speaker 1>you might go like, well they you know, they they're professionals,

610
00:32:11.160 --> 00:32:14.039
<v Speaker 1>they investigated, like but you start digging deeper and you

611
00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:16.880
<v Speaker 1>probably know more than us. Is like that, there's a

612
00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:18.799
<v Speaker 1>lot of times where they just don't do their job

613
00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:21.359
<v Speaker 1>and then they but they have someone in custody, so

614
00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:27.359
<v Speaker 1>then that person becomes a scapegoat and people you know,

615
00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:29.680
<v Speaker 1>listeners and stuff will probably serve on jury. Like you

616
00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:32.440
<v Speaker 1>should understand, like just because on the officer said this

617
00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:35.599
<v Speaker 1>person confess, Like, well, how was that confession done? Was it?

618
00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:35.839
<v Speaker 2>Was?

619
00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:38.240
<v Speaker 1>It actually backed up on evidence, like how many hours

620
00:32:38.319 --> 00:32:40.839
<v Speaker 1>was that person put there? Like you need that all

621
00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:45.440
<v Speaker 1>recorded because they leave you alone in a small room,

622
00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:48.599
<v Speaker 1>air conditioning on, like no warmth, like I didn't get

623
00:32:48.680 --> 00:32:51.839
<v Speaker 1>like you don't having food even if you're hungry, like

624
00:32:51.880 --> 00:32:54.039
<v Speaker 1>you're away from your family. They just like they literally

625
00:32:54.079 --> 00:32:56.799
<v Speaker 1>put you in a box and then keep going at

626
00:32:56.839 --> 00:33:00.359
<v Speaker 1>you like we're mentioning earlier. So if someone confesses, and

627
00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:03.839
<v Speaker 1>most confessions happen after like six hours, so someone they

628
00:33:03.880 --> 00:33:06.880
<v Speaker 1>go like, oh, they confessed at hour twelve, then I

629
00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:09.119
<v Speaker 1>don't give a shit what that Like, why they take

630
00:33:09.160 --> 00:33:14.759
<v Speaker 1>twelve hours? Like do some actual investigation. Then people should

631
00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:20.160
<v Speaker 1>really be skeptical of like what law enforcement's saying, because

632
00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:22.119
<v Speaker 1>we are innocent till proven guilty.

633
00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:24.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And even reviewing a lot of the court documents,

634
00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:29.880
<v Speaker 2>the AffA David and the police reports, just seeing how

635
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:33.759
<v Speaker 2>much the narrative is manipulated in what they write and

636
00:33:33.759 --> 00:33:40.039
<v Speaker 2>how they write. It's it distorts the truth definitely. And

637
00:33:40.759 --> 00:33:45.119
<v Speaker 2>I think I saw one officer's summary and was like, oh, Okay,

638
00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:47.920
<v Speaker 2>this is actually objective, But that was out of dozens

639
00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:52.559
<v Speaker 2>of things that I've read from the officers. So it's

640
00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:54.000
<v Speaker 2>it's a little.

641
00:33:53.960 --> 00:33:56.039
<v Speaker 4>There's always a lot of context missing.

642
00:33:56.480 --> 00:33:59.359
<v Speaker 3>I mean, even when if you're just talking about confessions alone,

643
00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:02.559
<v Speaker 3>maybe there's a lot of it recorded now in twenty

644
00:34:02.599 --> 00:34:05.880
<v Speaker 3>twenty four, but when we started getting recorded confessions, even

645
00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:07.640
<v Speaker 3>we work on so many cases that are older, what

646
00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:11.360
<v Speaker 3>I see more often than not is we get twenty

647
00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:13.159
<v Speaker 3>minutes of them saying that they did it in this

648
00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:15.800
<v Speaker 3>like perfect story. And then what we don't get is

649
00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:19.119
<v Speaker 3>the eighteen twelve whatever hours that led up to that,

650
00:34:19.639 --> 00:34:22.079
<v Speaker 3>and the thirty five times they said I didn't do it,

651
00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:23.159
<v Speaker 3>I didn't do it, I didn't do it.

652
00:34:23.559 --> 00:34:24.400
<v Speaker 4>And I even had a.

653
00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:27.079
<v Speaker 3>Case recently where they would like start the confession and

654
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:28.880
<v Speaker 3>something would go wrong. He's like, oh nop, we're gonna pause,

655
00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:30.639
<v Speaker 3>We're gonna rewind the tape and like start again.

656
00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:31.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh god, Yeah.

657
00:34:31.960 --> 00:34:34.320
<v Speaker 1>So what people don't realize it's not just a confession,

658
00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:37.719
<v Speaker 1>it's a rewriting of the confession. So they won't the

659
00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:41.079
<v Speaker 1>auficers won't just take a confession. They'll go they will

660
00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:43.639
<v Speaker 1>make it or as they were telling me, let's start over,

661
00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:47.480
<v Speaker 1>so this story makes sense. And that is not uncommon

662
00:34:47.519 --> 00:34:50.760
<v Speaker 1>that they go the person starts, not they don't know

663
00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:53.280
<v Speaker 1>the details because they're falsely confessing and go, oh stop,

664
00:34:53.519 --> 00:34:55.960
<v Speaker 1>let's add that detail because then they know when they

665
00:34:55.960 --> 00:34:59.239
<v Speaker 1>get to trial. I think this person only knows details

666
00:34:59.719 --> 00:35:03.119
<v Speaker 1>that perpetrator would know. But they fed them and if

667
00:35:03.159 --> 00:35:05.239
<v Speaker 1>they don't record it before, you don't see the feeding

668
00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:07.920
<v Speaker 1>of it. So it is a rewriting of it, and

669
00:35:07.960 --> 00:35:09.960
<v Speaker 1>that it is hard for people to understand. Even the

670
00:35:10.039 --> 00:35:13.159
<v Speaker 1>Central Park five case they had, they use five different

671
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:18.159
<v Speaker 1>confessions to convict all five boys. Uh, and they made

672
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:21.400
<v Speaker 1>one person he had to give them multiple different confessions

673
00:35:21.400 --> 00:35:24.519
<v Speaker 1>to tie them all together. So that obviously went hold

674
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:26.559
<v Speaker 1>up if you compare him side to side.

675
00:35:27.559 --> 00:35:27.679
<v Speaker 2>Uh.

676
00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:30.119
<v Speaker 1>But the officers know that. And then again that's like

677
00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:34.679
<v Speaker 1>they know confessions get convictions, and that needs to change

678
00:35:34.679 --> 00:35:37.960
<v Speaker 1>because we're the only country that allows officers, like developed

679
00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:41.679
<v Speaker 1>country allows officers to lie to the suspect. So they

680
00:35:41.719 --> 00:35:43.599
<v Speaker 1>will continue to lie to you.

681
00:35:43.639 --> 00:35:46.159
<v Speaker 3>I'm like, we've got your fingerprints, we've got your DNA,

682
00:35:46.199 --> 00:35:47.119
<v Speaker 3>and they'll stay that.

683
00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:51.280
<v Speaker 2>You made light of victims lie to family members like

684
00:35:51.320 --> 00:35:51.960
<v Speaker 2>in our case.

685
00:35:52.199 --> 00:35:55.599
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, and so like the only thing that the

686
00:35:55.599 --> 00:35:58.519
<v Speaker 1>police officer said that was truthful to me was that

687
00:35:58.599 --> 00:36:01.840
<v Speaker 1>they didn't believe me. I would. Yeah, that's the only

688
00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:03.840
<v Speaker 1>thing that they said was truthful.

689
00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:06.719
<v Speaker 3>When you guys, so you are one of the lucky

690
00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:08.960
<v Speaker 3>ones that not only did you fight it and win,

691
00:36:09.079 --> 00:36:13.199
<v Speaker 3>but you got proved to be innocent. What was life

692
00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:16.320
<v Speaker 3>like right after that? I mean, did you dive headfirst

693
00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:19.039
<v Speaker 3>into all this advocacy you've done or did you was

694
00:36:19.079 --> 00:36:20.679
<v Speaker 3>there a moment where you just kind of like had

695
00:36:20.719 --> 00:36:22.599
<v Speaker 3>to get your feet on the ground again.

696
00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:25.679
<v Speaker 2>Oh no, It's been an almost nine and a half

697
00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:30.920
<v Speaker 2>year journey. Initially, you know, it was about us trying

698
00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:33.599
<v Speaker 2>to get all the information to defend ourselves because we

699
00:36:33.639 --> 00:36:36.679
<v Speaker 2>were preparing to go to court and because they were

700
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:40.880
<v Speaker 2>threatening us with prosecution. And then uh, you know, my

701
00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:43.159
<v Speaker 2>captain and rapist is caught for that other crime and

702
00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:46.000
<v Speaker 2>then it's okay, let's focus on making sure he gets

703
00:36:46.079 --> 00:36:50.039
<v Speaker 2>the largest sentence that he deserves to protect to victims.

704
00:36:50.079 --> 00:36:55.159
<v Speaker 2>And so you know, in that three years of that

705
00:36:55.280 --> 00:36:58.719
<v Speaker 2>criminal case and then our civil lawsuit, we were still

706
00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:03.280
<v Speaker 2>silent and I was definitely not on social media because

707
00:37:03.280 --> 00:37:07.679
<v Speaker 2>I was getting death threats and just hateful I just

708
00:37:08.119 --> 00:37:11.599
<v Speaker 2>the worst things that people can say, and it's just

709
00:37:11.679 --> 00:37:15.119
<v Speaker 2>all over the board, Like my looks and who I am.

710
00:37:15.320 --> 00:37:16.119
<v Speaker 2>And it's just.

711
00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:19.440
<v Speaker 4>Even after people knew that you didn't.

712
00:37:19.239 --> 00:37:21.679
<v Speaker 2>Do it, Yeah, and then there was still the doubt.

713
00:37:21.800 --> 00:37:24.960
<v Speaker 2>So that's the thing, you know, they say something immediately

714
00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:28.039
<v Speaker 2>and they put it out publicly, and that's they plants

715
00:37:28.079 --> 00:37:31.039
<v Speaker 2>that seed of doubt. And so people, because they believe

716
00:37:31.119 --> 00:37:35.679
<v Speaker 2>so hardly about that, they don't want to let that

717
00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:37.320
<v Speaker 2>go because they don't want to be like, oh wow,

718
00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:39.199
<v Speaker 2>I was so wrong and I was so hateful with

719
00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:42.559
<v Speaker 2>my incorrect information. So some people really like just hold

720
00:37:42.599 --> 00:37:45.920
<v Speaker 2>on to it. Yeah, And I mean it took me

721
00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:49.719
<v Speaker 2>a year to go back to work, one because I

722
00:37:49.719 --> 00:37:52.840
<v Speaker 2>didn't know people would recognize me. And two I didn't

723
00:37:53.079 --> 00:37:55.800
<v Speaker 2>know if I was capable. I mean, and it's one

724
00:37:55.800 --> 00:37:59.280
<v Speaker 2>thing to like have something awful, it is violent crime,

725
00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:04.079
<v Speaker 2>but have the whole world attack you have the people

726
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:06.239
<v Speaker 2>an authority that you're supposed to turn to for help

727
00:38:06.599 --> 00:38:12.719
<v Speaker 2>attack you. It really makes you feel terrified to even

728
00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:17.760
<v Speaker 2>like really enter life in society again. So it was again,

729
00:38:17.800 --> 00:38:19.960
<v Speaker 2>it was just a really long journey. But along the way,

730
00:38:20.440 --> 00:38:22.559
<v Speaker 2>you know, again, Aaron's brothers an FBI and so we

731
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:25.760
<v Speaker 2>learned a lot. We learned from other survivors and paying

732
00:38:25.800 --> 00:38:28.320
<v Speaker 2>attention to these other stories, going oh my gosh, like

733
00:38:29.119 --> 00:38:31.519
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't a one off. This isn't a couple bad

734
00:38:31.559 --> 00:38:35.079
<v Speaker 2>apples and a bad orchard and Vallejo like this, this

735
00:38:35.159 --> 00:38:38.719
<v Speaker 2>happens way way too often. I think we were watching

736
00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:41.880
<v Speaker 2>confession tapes or something on Netflix way back then, and

737
00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:47.119
<v Speaker 2>Aaron was able to predict verbatim what the investigator was

738
00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:49.880
<v Speaker 2>going to say because it was all the script. You know,

739
00:38:50.039 --> 00:38:51.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to pay you as a cold calculator. You

740
00:38:51.920 --> 00:38:54.960
<v Speaker 2>fail this miserably, Like it's just all these and so

741
00:38:55.039 --> 00:38:59.840
<v Speaker 2>that's what was really disheartening to see how common it was,

742
00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:02.559
<v Speaker 2>and that's where we're like, okay, well this needs to change,

743
00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:04.920
<v Speaker 2>and when we're ready, we want to speak publicly. But

744
00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:07.960
<v Speaker 2>then also because of how misconstrued everything was in the media,

745
00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:13.800
<v Speaker 2>we knew, okay, like, we can't trust putting our story

746
00:39:13.840 --> 00:39:17.760
<v Speaker 2>out there through that medium unless all the information's out there.

747
00:39:17.800 --> 00:39:20.599
<v Speaker 2>So we focused then on writing a book and that

748
00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:26.840
<v Speaker 2>was several years of finding the right person, and then

749
00:39:27.239 --> 00:39:29.519
<v Speaker 2>again we did the docu series. It was released earlier

750
00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:32.679
<v Speaker 2>this year, but we you know, started with one production

751
00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:35.480
<v Speaker 2>company decided no, that's not working, and then with this

752
00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:39.400
<v Speaker 2>one We really made them work hard to show us

753
00:39:39.719 --> 00:39:42.840
<v Speaker 2>that their goals were aligned with ours and it wasn't

754
00:39:42.840 --> 00:39:46.960
<v Speaker 2>about just sensationalizing the event itself. But what's the bigger

755
00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:50.960
<v Speaker 2>picture issues? Because you know, sad, anyone can be a

756
00:39:51.039 --> 00:39:54.920
<v Speaker 2>victim of a crime, but you don't really know all

757
00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:56.800
<v Speaker 2>the challenges you're going to face unless you're in it.

758
00:39:56.840 --> 00:39:58.960
<v Speaker 2>And then when you're in it, you're traumatized and you're

759
00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:00.880
<v Speaker 2>just like swim, you know.

760
00:40:01.519 --> 00:40:03.480
<v Speaker 3>And how do you guys think now about trying to

761
00:40:03.519 --> 00:40:05.239
<v Speaker 3>tackle some of those issues, Because it would be really

762
00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:07.239
<v Speaker 3>easy if there was just one right where we could

763
00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:08.760
<v Speaker 3>just be like, if we just fix this one thing.

764
00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:11.760
<v Speaker 3>But it's sometimes can feel overwhelming because it feels like

765
00:40:11.800 --> 00:40:13.039
<v Speaker 3>there are so many of them.

766
00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:18.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, our case seems like this, I don't know, perfect

767
00:40:18.639 --> 00:40:22.920
<v Speaker 2>storm of so many different issues, you know, the biases

768
00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:26.920
<v Speaker 2>against women and not believing women. And I mean on

769
00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:29.880
<v Speaker 2>the FBI affid David, it said my start exam showed

770
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:32.719
<v Speaker 2>quote no signs of non consensual sex, even though I

771
00:40:32.719 --> 00:40:37.440
<v Speaker 2>told them I didn't fight back physically because I was bound,

772
00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:40.079
<v Speaker 2>I was blindfolded, I was held in a remote location.

773
00:40:40.199 --> 00:40:42.199
<v Speaker 2>My life was threatened, his life was threatened. You know,

774
00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:44.480
<v Speaker 2>so it's kind of like, well, of course I'm not

775
00:40:44.519 --> 00:40:47.360
<v Speaker 2>going to have like physical, egregious injuries. But there was

776
00:40:47.480 --> 00:40:51.360
<v Speaker 2>evidence in the start exam that indicated that an assault

777
00:40:51.400 --> 00:40:55.760
<v Speaker 2>did happen or intercourse did happen within that like twenty

778
00:40:55.760 --> 00:40:59.159
<v Speaker 2>four to forty eight hour period before, and that uh,

779
00:40:59.400 --> 00:41:02.840
<v Speaker 2>there was bruce from him dropping me, and I mean

780
00:41:03.159 --> 00:41:06.960
<v Speaker 2>there was consistency in what they found in the in

781
00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:09.679
<v Speaker 2>the start exam to what I was saying. And of

782
00:41:09.719 --> 00:41:11.360
<v Speaker 2>course the police never used that.

783
00:41:11.679 --> 00:41:14.119
<v Speaker 1>There's a lot of aspects in our case that reach

784
00:41:14.159 --> 00:41:19.599
<v Speaker 1>across culture, our current culture. For us, it's just trying

785
00:41:19.639 --> 00:41:22.920
<v Speaker 1>to focus on it because there's so many worthy causes

786
00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:25.239
<v Speaker 1>and we can't do it all right, So, I mean,

787
00:41:25.559 --> 00:41:27.920
<v Speaker 1>you just don't have the like even the emotional capacity

788
00:41:28.039 --> 00:41:31.960
<v Speaker 1>to to do this, you know, abc D you have

789
00:41:32.039 --> 00:41:33.159
<v Speaker 1>to kind of focus on that.

790
00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:36.639
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, one one organization we paid attention to early

791
00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:40.280
<v Speaker 2>on was the Joyful Heart Foundation, which was they were

792
00:41:40.320 --> 00:41:43.199
<v Speaker 2>working on ending the backlog of rape tests, because that

793
00:41:43.239 --> 00:41:45.119
<v Speaker 2>was something that was so insulting to me. You know,

794
00:41:45.159 --> 00:41:49.320
<v Speaker 2>they like say that this thing didn't happen. I have

795
00:41:49.400 --> 00:41:52.280
<v Speaker 2>to take this four hour long start exam, wondering the

796
00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:55.000
<v Speaker 2>whole time if they're going to use this against me

797
00:41:55.079 --> 00:41:56.760
<v Speaker 2>because I didn't fight back, So I'm like, what are

798
00:41:56.760 --> 00:41:58.159
<v Speaker 2>they going to find? What are they not going to

799
00:41:58.239 --> 00:42:00.360
<v Speaker 2>You know, there was a female FBI in the room

800
00:42:00.400 --> 00:42:02.400
<v Speaker 2>that I never talked to, was just like watching this,

801
00:42:04.159 --> 00:42:07.119
<v Speaker 2>it just was all very You mean, you have to

802
00:42:07.159 --> 00:42:10.239
<v Speaker 2>do it within forty eight hours of being being attacked

803
00:42:10.400 --> 00:42:12.559
<v Speaker 2>is like one of the most exposing and vulnerable things

804
00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:16.719
<v Speaker 2>you could do being a victim of assault. And then

805
00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:19.280
<v Speaker 2>they just kind of they didn't use it. You know.

806
00:42:19.639 --> 00:42:22.480
<v Speaker 2>Six months later, we're talking to the AUSA and I'm

807
00:42:22.519 --> 00:42:24.639
<v Speaker 2>asking him where's my start exam? And he's kind of

808
00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:27.239
<v Speaker 2>looking around the room, going like, Oh, I don't know.

809
00:42:28.960 --> 00:42:31.639
<v Speaker 2>Wasn't it so important that I get this done? Or

810
00:42:31.719 --> 00:42:34.320
<v Speaker 2>was this just again like the light detector test deploy

811
00:42:34.840 --> 00:42:38.760
<v Speaker 2>to see, Yeah, let's just degrade her and demean her

812
00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:40.559
<v Speaker 2>as much as we can. I mean that's just what

813
00:42:40.599 --> 00:42:44.960
<v Speaker 2>it feels like, right. So Yeah, there's like with us,

814
00:42:45.079 --> 00:42:48.000
<v Speaker 2>it's complicated because even going through the court process, we

815
00:42:48.039 --> 00:42:55.400
<v Speaker 2>see how many rights are the kidnapper, Matthew Mueller, how

816
00:42:55.400 --> 00:42:58.360
<v Speaker 2>many rights he had compared to us, Like he represented

817
00:42:58.440 --> 00:43:01.280
<v Speaker 2>himself at one point he was able to watch the

818
00:43:01.719 --> 00:43:05.679
<v Speaker 2>rape videos. He had videoed me while he assaulted me,

819
00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:09.199
<v Speaker 2>so he's able to rewatch it, and he in the

820
00:43:09.239 --> 00:43:14.079
<v Speaker 2>preliminary hearing he had the right to cross examine me

821
00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:16.920
<v Speaker 2>and Aaron, and it was only because he chose not to.

822
00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:19.440
<v Speaker 2>But I'm sitting up there the whole time answering the

823
00:43:19.480 --> 00:43:24.679
<v Speaker 2>most humiliating questions with the prosecutor in front of you know, media,

824
00:43:24.840 --> 00:43:28.440
<v Speaker 2>my family about the details of the assaults. My assailant

825
00:43:28.480 --> 00:43:31.719
<v Speaker 2>is watching me as I'm giving this description, and I

826
00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:33.920
<v Speaker 2>don't know if he's then going to cross examine me,

827
00:43:34.159 --> 00:43:36.639
<v Speaker 2>and then he goes, oh, no, I'm not going to, like, oh,

828
00:43:36.679 --> 00:43:39.440
<v Speaker 2>thank you, You're the hero now, you know. But it

829
00:43:39.480 --> 00:43:42.840
<v Speaker 2>was so it was a lot to realize how little

830
00:43:42.920 --> 00:43:46.199
<v Speaker 2>rights we had as victims. But at the same time,

831
00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:49.320
<v Speaker 2>I do believe, because we were suspects, that suspects need

832
00:43:49.360 --> 00:43:53.000
<v Speaker 2>to have rights as well. So that's another thing that

833
00:43:53.639 --> 00:43:57.519
<v Speaker 2>I learned about was Marcy's Law, and that organization is

834
00:43:57.519 --> 00:44:01.239
<v Speaker 2>working to try to make amendments to each state's constitution

835
00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:04.000
<v Speaker 2>to add a bill of rights for victims and some

836
00:44:04.119 --> 00:44:06.800
<v Speaker 2>of the things I've when I was researching it, you know,

837
00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:09.320
<v Speaker 2>the critics kind of saying, well, no, if you if

838
00:44:09.320 --> 00:44:11.719
<v Speaker 2>you give victims rights, and that's going to take away

839
00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:14.800
<v Speaker 2>the rights of the suspect. And I'm like, well, how

840
00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:17.800
<v Speaker 2>that just because you name rights for one group of

841
00:44:17.800 --> 00:44:20.599
<v Speaker 2>people doesn't mean that you're taking away the rights of

842
00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:24.239
<v Speaker 2>other people, you know, within reason, right, But like these

843
00:44:24.280 --> 00:44:28.239
<v Speaker 2>things are like treat victims with respect and decency, keep

844
00:44:28.239 --> 00:44:30.760
<v Speaker 2>them informed, make sure that they're protected, and they have

845
00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:34.480
<v Speaker 2>a level of privacy, like really basic, like basic stuff,

846
00:44:34.480 --> 00:44:36.320
<v Speaker 2>but like we have to put that in. And what

847
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:39.719
<v Speaker 2>was really discouraging too was to realize that California has

848
00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:44.800
<v Speaker 2>one of the most extensive amendments for victims, but in

849
00:44:44.840 --> 00:44:47.639
<v Speaker 2>our case, it wasn't implemented. So if the people on

850
00:44:47.679 --> 00:44:51.239
<v Speaker 2>the field don't believe in this or maybe don't know it,

851
00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:53.880
<v Speaker 2>but if they're not implementing it, then what power does

852
00:44:53.920 --> 00:44:57.519
<v Speaker 2>it have. So you know, those are just you know,

853
00:44:57.519 --> 00:44:59.960
<v Speaker 2>And then we've been paying attention to the Innocence Project

854
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:05.000
<v Speaker 2>and like watching case after case, you know, the confession

855
00:45:05.079 --> 00:45:08.239
<v Speaker 2>tapes and other like making a murder, you know, all

856
00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:12.000
<v Speaker 2>these things where you're like seeing the trend. And now

857
00:45:12.039 --> 00:45:15.000
<v Speaker 2>that the series is out, we've had the pleasure of

858
00:45:15.039 --> 00:45:17.280
<v Speaker 2>being able to speak in front of groups of law

859
00:45:17.360 --> 00:45:21.280
<v Speaker 2>enforcement for interrogations or in dealing with sexual assault, and

860
00:45:21.320 --> 00:45:23.960
<v Speaker 2>we tell them, you know, we understand. We're all human,

861
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:26.800
<v Speaker 2>we're fallible. We work in the medical field. We make mistakes,

862
00:45:26.800 --> 00:45:29.719
<v Speaker 2>so we see that it happens. But what's really important,

863
00:45:29.800 --> 00:45:33.639
<v Speaker 2>especially if you're working with people, human beings, especially going

864
00:45:33.639 --> 00:45:35.840
<v Speaker 2>through a trauma and that come to you for help,

865
00:45:36.199 --> 00:45:38.039
<v Speaker 2>you need to be able to self reflect. You need

866
00:45:38.079 --> 00:45:41.119
<v Speaker 2>to be able to say, how could I do better?

867
00:45:41.360 --> 00:45:45.920
<v Speaker 2>And name it. Okay, we made this mistake. Now let's

868
00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:50.159
<v Speaker 2>figure out how to yeah, just to change and to

869
00:45:50.239 --> 00:45:51.519
<v Speaker 2>help protect people better.

870
00:45:51.800 --> 00:45:53.760
<v Speaker 3>We get a lot of shit on the show because

871
00:45:53.800 --> 00:45:55.480
<v Speaker 3>like we talk about a lot of the things that

872
00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:57.559
<v Speaker 3>go wrong, Like we're not usually talking about a case

873
00:45:57.559 --> 00:45:59.039
<v Speaker 3>on Crime Junkie if everything went right.

874
00:45:59.599 --> 00:46:01.519
<v Speaker 4>And what I keep saying is I was, like, there

875
00:46:01.519 --> 00:46:03.239
<v Speaker 4>are a lot of great people. I've worked with a

876
00:46:03.239 --> 00:46:04.039
<v Speaker 4>lot of great people.

877
00:46:04.559 --> 00:46:06.360
<v Speaker 3>But like if you exactly what you're saying, if you

878
00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:08.840
<v Speaker 3>don't talk about what went wrong, and if you don't

879
00:46:08.840 --> 00:46:12.079
<v Speaker 3>analyze what could have been better, like how nothing will

880
00:46:12.119 --> 00:46:16.840
<v Speaker 3>ever change ever And it's not about like necessarily even

881
00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:20.840
<v Speaker 3>like tearing any one individual or anything apart. Sometimes they

882
00:46:20.840 --> 00:46:23.519
<v Speaker 3>deserve it, but I like, I just don't expect like

883
00:46:23.559 --> 00:46:25.639
<v Speaker 3>this band of brotherhood kind of thing right where it's

884
00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:27.719
<v Speaker 3>just like like no, like like we got to talk

885
00:46:27.719 --> 00:46:28.800
<v Speaker 3>about when it goes.

886
00:46:28.639 --> 00:46:31.360
<v Speaker 2>Bad, right we It's like we have to be able

887
00:46:31.400 --> 00:46:32.920
<v Speaker 2>to have this conversation, yeah, or.

888
00:46:32.840 --> 00:46:33.440
<v Speaker 4>I don't trust you?

889
00:46:33.679 --> 00:46:33.840
<v Speaker 2>Right?

890
00:46:34.679 --> 00:46:38.079
<v Speaker 3>So, what are the some of the cases that you

891
00:46:38.079 --> 00:46:41.840
<v Speaker 3>guys have gotten involved with, because I'm my understanding is

892
00:46:41.880 --> 00:46:44.119
<v Speaker 3>you guys have the kind of like not only are

893
00:46:44.159 --> 00:46:46.199
<v Speaker 3>you working with these bigger organizations, but are there some

894
00:46:46.280 --> 00:46:48.599
<v Speaker 3>cases that you guys are really paying attention to right now?

895
00:46:49.159 --> 00:46:51.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean I think we pay attention to a lot.

896
00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:57.599
<v Speaker 2>We noticed a lot. There's also a balance of it

897
00:46:57.639 --> 00:47:00.880
<v Speaker 2>can be a little overwhelming, you know, to to still

898
00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:03.639
<v Speaker 2>try to navigate because this is our whole life, right

899
00:47:03.760 --> 00:47:06.199
<v Speaker 2>Like we've got two young kids. We've got a two

900
00:47:06.199 --> 00:47:11.159
<v Speaker 2>and a four year old, which are amazing and they

901
00:47:10.599 --> 00:47:12.239
<v Speaker 2>h it takes a lot of better.

902
00:47:12.760 --> 00:47:14.039
<v Speaker 3>I have one two and a half year old and

903
00:47:14.960 --> 00:47:16.679
<v Speaker 3>my whole life, which is great.

904
00:47:16.760 --> 00:47:19.000
<v Speaker 2>It's like that's what I do want to put my

905
00:47:19.119 --> 00:47:22.079
<v Speaker 2>focus on, right And we're still working as physical therapists

906
00:47:22.119 --> 00:47:25.199
<v Speaker 2>and advocating for our patients, and so a big part

907
00:47:25.400 --> 00:47:28.760
<v Speaker 2>of this and advocating is using your voice. And so

908
00:47:29.440 --> 00:47:31.960
<v Speaker 2>it's been a long journey to find out who we

909
00:47:32.039 --> 00:47:34.800
<v Speaker 2>can trust to help us amplify our voice so then

910
00:47:34.840 --> 00:47:38.360
<v Speaker 2>we can talk about these serious issues. Because what's helped

911
00:47:38.440 --> 00:47:41.039
<v Speaker 2>us over the years is hearing from other survivors and

912
00:47:41.079 --> 00:47:43.840
<v Speaker 2>seeing them speak out against all odds, and so it

913
00:47:43.880 --> 00:47:46.440
<v Speaker 2>makes us think, Okay, well then let's do that. Let's

914
00:47:46.519 --> 00:47:49.920
<v Speaker 2>let's turn our pain into purpose and keep this conversation going.

915
00:47:51.039 --> 00:47:53.360
<v Speaker 2>And so that's kind of where we're at right now

916
00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:57.199
<v Speaker 2>is again we're able to speak in front of law enforcement,

917
00:47:57.199 --> 00:47:59.440
<v Speaker 2>which is what we've always wanted to do. You know,

918
00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:02.760
<v Speaker 2>we're not at them. We want to work with them

919
00:48:03.079 --> 00:48:07.840
<v Speaker 2>and advocating for survivors of sexual assaults because there was

920
00:48:07.960 --> 00:48:12.239
<v Speaker 2>so there's still it's just so sad, like twenty twenty four,

921
00:48:12.320 --> 00:48:15.199
<v Speaker 2>there's still this misconception about women, how they should behave,

922
00:48:16.360 --> 00:48:18.960
<v Speaker 2>what's their fault, what's not their fault, And we do

923
00:48:19.039 --> 00:48:21.519
<v Speaker 2>it to ourselves too, because that is so entrenched in

924
00:48:21.559 --> 00:48:26.679
<v Speaker 2>our culture that it's really easy to self blame. And

925
00:48:26.760 --> 00:48:29.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, and as we've spoken out, I have to

926
00:48:29.599 --> 00:48:33.320
<v Speaker 2>recognize sometimes that I need help again, you know, so

927
00:48:33.400 --> 00:48:36.679
<v Speaker 2>I've gone back to therapy, and that's another thing I

928
00:48:36.679 --> 00:48:39.039
<v Speaker 2>want to advocate for because it's been such a huge

929
00:48:39.039 --> 00:48:42.480
<v Speaker 2>help for us in this whole process.

930
00:48:42.840 --> 00:48:45.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think with law enforcement, there's also a lot

931
00:48:46.079 --> 00:48:50.199
<v Speaker 1>of law enforcement law do better, and like for me,

932
00:48:50.280 --> 00:48:53.440
<v Speaker 1>a big part is just trying and advocate for different

933
00:48:53.719 --> 00:48:55.920
<v Speaker 1>types of interrogation and get away from this idea of

934
00:48:55.960 --> 00:49:01.000
<v Speaker 1>like confessions are the goal. It really should be gain information.

935
00:49:01.599 --> 00:49:04.760
<v Speaker 1>So there's models like the Peace model, which is more

936
00:49:04.800 --> 00:49:08.079
<v Speaker 1>of a journalistic approach where you're just gathering information from

937
00:49:08.360 --> 00:49:11.360
<v Speaker 1>the person you're talking to and you're not center trying

938
00:49:11.400 --> 00:49:14.920
<v Speaker 1>to say you're not in a guilt presumptive mindset, which

939
00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:18.239
<v Speaker 1>is what happened to me. And that's based off the

940
00:49:18.320 --> 00:49:21.519
<v Speaker 1>read technique or Battie is another version. It's a cousin

941
00:49:21.599 --> 00:49:25.440
<v Speaker 1>of reed, and that read is the most commonly used

942
00:49:25.880 --> 00:49:28.960
<v Speaker 1>interrogation technique in the world, and.

943
00:49:28.960 --> 00:49:33.079
<v Speaker 2>Antis with law enforcement, they teach corporation.

944
00:49:32.719 --> 00:49:36.480
<v Speaker 1>Corporations and schools. Yeah, so you will use this technique.

945
00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:42.519
<v Speaker 1>I'll put technique in quotes or its method against children.

946
00:49:43.000 --> 00:49:46.800
<v Speaker 1>And the problem with it is that even the read

947
00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:51.559
<v Speaker 1>technique started front in the late nineteen forties early nineteen fifties,

948
00:49:51.559 --> 00:49:55.519
<v Speaker 1>after police weren't unable to beat suspects into confessions, they

949
00:49:55.639 --> 00:49:58.239
<v Speaker 1>figure out how can we psychologically pressure them.

950
00:49:58.760 --> 00:49:59.800
<v Speaker 4>I would say it's torture.

951
00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:04.440
<v Speaker 1>And John Reid in the fifty early fifties got confession

952
00:50:04.519 --> 00:50:07.000
<v Speaker 1>from a man and end up being a false confession.

953
00:50:07.280 --> 00:50:09.920
<v Speaker 1>It was overturned seventeen years later, but that was a

954
00:50:09.960 --> 00:50:11.880
<v Speaker 1>basics It starts this whole thing. That starts a whole

955
00:50:11.920 --> 00:50:14.559
<v Speaker 1>and then that makes READ popular. So the problem with

956
00:50:14.639 --> 00:50:16.760
<v Speaker 1>READ is it can get confessions that can also get

957
00:50:17.000 --> 00:50:21.400
<v Speaker 1>false confessions. And so the case that made it popular

958
00:50:21.480 --> 00:50:23.960
<v Speaker 1>was already based off false confession and it was just

959
00:50:24.280 --> 00:50:28.079
<v Speaker 1>some detective from Chicago making this method up. There's not

960
00:50:29.000 --> 00:50:32.320
<v Speaker 1>so there's not really any science behind it. So now

961
00:50:32.320 --> 00:50:35.519
<v Speaker 1>there are other like HIG will do where it's more

962
00:50:35.559 --> 00:50:40.079
<v Speaker 1>of a science based interrogation technique. So bring in psychologists,

963
00:50:40.119 --> 00:50:44.079
<v Speaker 1>bring in like other disciplines to help the officers understand

964
00:50:44.119 --> 00:50:46.679
<v Speaker 1>those pressures, because I don't think they really understand what

965
00:50:46.760 --> 00:50:49.800
<v Speaker 1>type of pressure they're doing. And that's another reason why

966
00:50:49.840 --> 00:50:51.960
<v Speaker 1>we talked to law enforcement is that they don't get

967
00:50:52.039 --> 00:50:54.320
<v Speaker 1>much follow up with the interact with someone during the

968
00:50:54.400 --> 00:50:56.960
<v Speaker 1>worst potential. One of the worst moments of their life,

969
00:50:57.679 --> 00:50:59.400
<v Speaker 1>which is got to be hard day after day to

970
00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:01.840
<v Speaker 1>be interacting with people that way. But they don't get

971
00:51:01.880 --> 00:51:03.599
<v Speaker 1>to follow up on cases. They don't hear from the

972
00:51:03.599 --> 00:51:07.400
<v Speaker 1>other side. So when we speak, we're just trying to

973
00:51:07.599 --> 00:51:09.760
<v Speaker 1>give them a sense of what it's like to be

974
00:51:10.960 --> 00:51:14.639
<v Speaker 1>gained railroad by like when they turn that machinery turns

975
00:51:14.639 --> 00:51:17.719
<v Speaker 1>on you. So that hopefully if they run and ta

976
00:51:17.719 --> 00:51:20.280
<v Speaker 1>a case where it's you know, maybe it sounds a

977
00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:22.800
<v Speaker 1>little bizarre, a little strange to them, that they don't

978
00:51:22.840 --> 00:51:25.039
<v Speaker 1>just rush to judgment and have the confirmation bias some

979
00:51:25.079 --> 00:51:27.880
<v Speaker 1>tunnel vision. They can think of our case and pause

980
00:51:27.880 --> 00:51:30.719
<v Speaker 1>and go like, well, what if you know, let's look

981
00:51:30.719 --> 00:51:32.960
<v Speaker 1>at X, Y, and Z and not just focus on

982
00:51:33.719 --> 00:51:37.199
<v Speaker 1>this one route. And because we have to do at

983
00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:39.519
<v Speaker 1>the ground level, right, they're the ones interacting a day

984
00:51:39.599 --> 00:51:43.119
<v Speaker 1>day basis. So that's one of the things we hope

985
00:51:43.360 --> 00:51:46.079
<v Speaker 1>for that get away from this because it's awful.

986
00:51:46.159 --> 00:51:46.360
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

987
00:51:46.360 --> 00:51:48.000
<v Speaker 3>I love that you guys are going and speaking to

988
00:51:48.039 --> 00:51:50.559
<v Speaker 3>them because I think that's where so much change can

989
00:51:50.599 --> 00:51:52.920
<v Speaker 3>actually happen. I think one of the things I was

990
00:51:53.000 --> 00:51:57.320
<v Speaker 3>most surprised by as I really got into this world

991
00:51:57.360 --> 00:52:00.960
<v Speaker 3>and dealing with law enforcement is that there was no standard,

992
00:52:01.280 --> 00:52:04.280
<v Speaker 3>like there is no standard training to be an investigator

993
00:52:04.440 --> 00:52:07.599
<v Speaker 3>across You're really only as good as the guy before

994
00:52:07.599 --> 00:52:09.840
<v Speaker 3>you that trained you. And when you think about I

995
00:52:09.840 --> 00:52:12.039
<v Speaker 3>mean as you guys, as doctors of physical therapy, I

996
00:52:12.039 --> 00:52:14.039
<v Speaker 3>mean the amount of training that you had to do,

997
00:52:14.199 --> 00:52:16.800
<v Speaker 3>education you had to do continued I know, and I

998
00:52:16.840 --> 00:52:17.840
<v Speaker 3>worked in a hospital for a long time.

999
00:52:17.840 --> 00:52:21.559
<v Speaker 4>There's continued medical education. And because you guys have.

1000
00:52:21.519 --> 00:52:24.079
<v Speaker 3>People's lives in your hands, right, which is important, and

1001
00:52:24.239 --> 00:52:27.360
<v Speaker 3>these people have people's lives in their hands, and.

1002
00:52:28.199 --> 00:52:31.039
<v Speaker 4>We crossed our fingers and hope they got trained, right.

1003
00:52:31.199 --> 00:52:34.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. One of the talks that we gave it was

1004
00:52:34.079 --> 00:52:38.840
<v Speaker 2>for science based interrogation, so it was about improving interrogation tactics.

1005
00:52:38.840 --> 00:52:41.280
<v Speaker 2>And we sat in for a couple of the talks

1006
00:52:41.719 --> 00:52:43.960
<v Speaker 2>and some of the psychologists were talking and we're like, oh,

1007
00:52:44.039 --> 00:52:47.360
<v Speaker 2>thank god, there's a psychologist in the room. But certain

1008
00:52:47.400 --> 00:52:49.840
<v Speaker 2>things were so basic that we're like do we learned

1009
00:52:49.880 --> 00:52:53.480
<v Speaker 2>this in PT school? Like how is this revolutionary? How

1010
00:52:53.639 --> 00:52:56.320
<v Speaker 2>is this a thing right now that's being taught. So

1011
00:52:56.400 --> 00:53:00.960
<v Speaker 2>it was like it's a bittersweet situation and going okay, well,

1012
00:53:00.960 --> 00:53:04.159
<v Speaker 2>at least someone's doing it and they are having these

1013
00:53:04.199 --> 00:53:07.440
<v Speaker 2>conferences and this type of training, but then it was

1014
00:53:07.920 --> 00:53:11.320
<v Speaker 2>equally as infuriating, So like, why weren't we treated this way?

1015
00:53:12.159 --> 00:53:16.079
<v Speaker 2>And why is this not something that is being done?

1016
00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:19.159
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, why do they have to fight to get

1017
00:53:19.159 --> 00:53:23.960
<v Speaker 2>people to buy into it? Yeah? I don't know, but.

1018
00:53:24.840 --> 00:53:28.320
<v Speaker 3>There's one message you have for the law enforcement that

1019
00:53:28.360 --> 00:53:31.039
<v Speaker 3>listens to our show and the survivors who listen to

1020
00:53:31.039 --> 00:53:31.400
<v Speaker 3>our show.

1021
00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:33.239
<v Speaker 4>What would each of those messages be?

1022
00:53:35.079 --> 00:53:40.760
<v Speaker 2>I think with law enforcement really is just recognize that

1023
00:53:40.840 --> 00:53:44.599
<v Speaker 2>we all have different biases. We've all grown up having

1024
00:53:44.760 --> 00:53:48.320
<v Speaker 2>our own life experiences that shape who we are and

1025
00:53:48.360 --> 00:53:50.960
<v Speaker 2>how we see the world and the people in it,

1026
00:53:51.079 --> 00:53:54.280
<v Speaker 2>and so kind of recognizing some of those judgments that

1027
00:53:54.320 --> 00:53:58.199
<v Speaker 2>you might have and trying to keep an open mind

1028
00:53:58.400 --> 00:54:02.719
<v Speaker 2>and self reflect It's okay that you make a mistake,

1029
00:54:03.559 --> 00:54:06.159
<v Speaker 2>but let's just try to learn from it and encourage

1030
00:54:06.199 --> 00:54:09.280
<v Speaker 2>that not just from yourself, but your peers, the people

1031
00:54:09.320 --> 00:54:13.639
<v Speaker 2>you work with as well. For survivors, I mean, the

1032
00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:18.559
<v Speaker 2>biggest thing is just always believe in yourself. You know,

1033
00:54:18.559 --> 00:54:21.239
<v Speaker 2>when you have people consistently trying to gaslight you and

1034
00:54:21.280 --> 00:54:24.440
<v Speaker 2>tell you what you experienced either a didn't happen or

1035
00:54:24.559 --> 00:54:31.280
<v Speaker 2>isn't that bad? It can? It really is re traumatizing,

1036
00:54:31.360 --> 00:54:34.320
<v Speaker 2>and it makes the healing that much harder, and so

1037
00:54:34.400 --> 00:54:39.079
<v Speaker 2>it's easy to give in and just believe that. And God,

1038
00:54:39.119 --> 00:54:41.800
<v Speaker 2>if we didn't believe in ourselves, we wouldn't be here

1039
00:54:42.559 --> 00:54:44.920
<v Speaker 2>and doing the work that we're doing. So that's a

1040
00:54:44.920 --> 00:54:45.559
<v Speaker 2>big thing.

1041
00:54:46.960 --> 00:54:49.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for me, to pay back off what Denise said

1042
00:54:49.400 --> 00:54:54.559
<v Speaker 1>with law enforcement the idea, I think sometimes law enforcement

1043
00:54:54.639 --> 00:54:56.920
<v Speaker 1>thinks they're being objective and they're trying their best to

1044
00:54:56.920 --> 00:54:59.119
<v Speaker 1>be objective, but no one actually can be objective, Like

1045
00:54:59.199 --> 00:55:03.000
<v Speaker 1>you need to reco regardless of who you are, there's

1046
00:55:03.000 --> 00:55:05.239
<v Speaker 1>always some sort of bias that you are either conscious

1047
00:55:05.280 --> 00:55:09.559
<v Speaker 1>of or unconscious of. No one is strictly objective. We

1048
00:55:09.599 --> 00:55:11.960
<v Speaker 1>see the world through our own lens. So you need

1049
00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:14.440
<v Speaker 1>to if you're a law enforceming, you recognize that you

1050
00:55:14.480 --> 00:55:19.199
<v Speaker 1>cannot is impossible to be fully objective. So you should

1051
00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:21.760
<v Speaker 1>put a lot of different safeguards to try to be

1052
00:55:21.880 --> 00:55:24.440
<v Speaker 1>as objective as possible. And that means bringing other people

1053
00:55:25.360 --> 00:55:30.159
<v Speaker 1>and for survivors as he needs to saying, like believe

1054
00:55:30.159 --> 00:55:35.159
<v Speaker 1>in yourself, find help, like find the people that you

1055
00:55:35.159 --> 00:55:43.519
<v Speaker 1>can trust that will not necessarily not necessarily even try

1056
00:55:43.519 --> 00:55:45.760
<v Speaker 1>to provide answers, but we'll just listen. There's a big

1057
00:55:45.800 --> 00:55:48.199
<v Speaker 1>part of like just having someone who will be there

1058
00:55:48.360 --> 00:55:53.599
<v Speaker 1>for you and for myself. I used to think I

1059
00:55:53.599 --> 00:55:56.079
<v Speaker 1>could just handle stuff I would like try to avoid,

1060
00:55:56.159 --> 00:55:59.159
<v Speaker 1>like burning my parents with distress or my friends, because

1061
00:55:59.159 --> 00:56:00.760
<v Speaker 1>I'm like, I'll just handle it, I can do it

1062
00:56:00.760 --> 00:56:06.400
<v Speaker 1>on my own, and that didn't work out, Like you can't,

1063
00:56:06.719 --> 00:56:12.880
<v Speaker 1>like you need and being such a life altering trauma,

1064
00:56:13.039 --> 00:56:16.920
<v Speaker 1>I've realized that I need like to go to my

1065
00:56:16.960 --> 00:56:19.800
<v Speaker 1>friends and my family and therapists, and we've moved done

1066
00:56:19.920 --> 00:56:24.800
<v Speaker 1>years and years of therapy, but have that trusted group

1067
00:56:24.840 --> 00:56:27.679
<v Speaker 1>that could go to and help lift me up. And

1068
00:56:27.719 --> 00:56:31.039
<v Speaker 1>that's really important to find those people in your lives

1069
00:56:31.119 --> 00:56:35.400
<v Speaker 1>because we all go through different variations of trauma. It

1070
00:56:35.440 --> 00:56:36.960
<v Speaker 1>doesn't have to be a kidnapping, it doesn't have to

1071
00:56:37.000 --> 00:56:40.320
<v Speaker 1>be like this extreme, but people have stuff that happens

1072
00:56:40.320 --> 00:56:42.719
<v Speaker 1>in their lives and we need the help of our

1073
00:56:43.199 --> 00:56:47.639
<v Speaker 1>close ones to heal from it and integrate it, because

1074
00:56:47.679 --> 00:56:51.480
<v Speaker 1>you can't actually just move on, like there's sometimes people

1075
00:56:51.519 --> 00:56:53.239
<v Speaker 1>say just forget about move on, but you can't. You

1076
00:56:53.320 --> 00:56:55.360
<v Speaker 1>have to learn how to integrate this into your life

1077
00:56:55.400 --> 00:56:57.199
<v Speaker 1>because it's part of you, and it's part of it's

1078
00:56:57.199 --> 00:56:59.480
<v Speaker 1>going to impact your decisions either either you like it

1079
00:56:59.519 --> 00:57:01.599
<v Speaker 1>or not. It's a little bit like your shadow. It's

1080
00:57:01.599 --> 00:57:03.599
<v Speaker 1>always there. You can be aware of it or not.

1081
00:57:03.719 --> 00:57:09.159
<v Speaker 1>And so by again help from other people, I have

1082
00:57:09.320 --> 00:57:12.280
<v Speaker 1>helped me integrate it to make something positive out of it,

1083
00:57:12.320 --> 00:57:15.000
<v Speaker 1>and that will be a continued thing. It's never there's

1084
00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:18.639
<v Speaker 1>no end to this, it's just different levels of it.

1085
00:57:20.239 --> 00:57:23.079
<v Speaker 3>Well, you guys, I think are like a beautiful example

1086
00:57:23.119 --> 00:57:26.320
<v Speaker 3>to survivors of what life can be if you put

1087
00:57:26.360 --> 00:57:29.440
<v Speaker 3>in the work, what life can be. Afterwards, I said,

1088
00:57:29.440 --> 00:57:31.320
<v Speaker 3>you didn't see this on your Bingo card for life?

1089
00:57:31.920 --> 00:57:35.480
<v Speaker 3>Did you get other good surprises like things you did

1090
00:57:35.480 --> 00:57:37.639
<v Speaker 3>see coming on your Bingo card or things you didn't?

1091
00:57:37.639 --> 00:57:40.159
<v Speaker 3>I mean, you guys are you both are now practicing

1092
00:57:40.320 --> 00:57:43.239
<v Speaker 3>right in physical therapy, You've got a family, you.

1093
00:57:43.199 --> 00:57:44.239
<v Speaker 4>Obviously got married.

1094
00:57:44.280 --> 00:57:48.199
<v Speaker 2>After this, life does move forward, you know. So it's

1095
00:57:48.280 --> 00:57:50.599
<v Speaker 2>nice that we were able to still have all those joys,

1096
00:57:50.599 --> 00:57:53.840
<v Speaker 2>that we were able to stay together as a couple. Again,

1097
00:57:54.000 --> 00:57:56.760
<v Speaker 2>a large part of that was the people in our

1098
00:57:56.800 --> 00:58:00.360
<v Speaker 2>lives that helped support us. And yeah, I mean we

1099
00:58:00.360 --> 00:58:03.039
<v Speaker 2>were able to return to our careers and we started

1100
00:58:03.079 --> 00:58:08.320
<v Speaker 2>this beautiful family, and now we get to meet with

1101
00:58:08.440 --> 00:58:11.760
<v Speaker 2>people and have these connections with other survivors or again

1102
00:58:11.800 --> 00:58:16.119
<v Speaker 2>in law enforcement, that we can share and use such

1103
00:58:16.119 --> 00:58:19.880
<v Speaker 2>a horrible thing to maybe do something better for other

1104
00:58:19.960 --> 00:58:22.760
<v Speaker 2>people who aren't as lucky as we are, who might

1105
00:58:22.800 --> 00:58:25.280
<v Speaker 2>not have all the resources, or who were still threatened

1106
00:58:25.360 --> 00:58:30.360
<v Speaker 2>into silence, that we can at least we can keep

1107
00:58:30.400 --> 00:58:34.519
<v Speaker 2>the conversation at least going and see if something can change.

1108
00:58:34.800 --> 00:58:36.239
<v Speaker 3>And thank you for doing that. I mean, you guys

1109
00:58:36.280 --> 00:58:39.599
<v Speaker 3>have every right to go live your lives and not

1110
00:58:39.639 --> 00:58:41.079
<v Speaker 3>do anything and take care of yourselves, and I think

1111
00:58:41.079 --> 00:58:42.599
<v Speaker 3>it's really beautiful what you guys are doing.

1112
00:58:42.840 --> 00:58:42.960
<v Speaker 2>Well.

1113
00:58:43.199 --> 00:58:45.559
<v Speaker 3>Thank you, yeah, thank you, and thank you for coming

1114
00:58:45.599 --> 00:58:47.280
<v Speaker 3>on here. It was wonderful to meet you and for

1115
00:58:47.360 --> 00:58:50.119
<v Speaker 3>sharing your story. I think it will touch a lot

1116
00:58:50.159 --> 00:58:51.800
<v Speaker 3>of people, so I really appreciate it.

1117
00:58:52.159 --> 00:58:53.159
<v Speaker 1>Thank you, yeah, thank you.

1118
00:58:53.639 --> 00:58:55.559
<v Speaker 3>All Right, everyone, don't forget to follow this show and

1119
00:58:55.559 --> 00:58:57.519
<v Speaker 3>add it to your library, and don't forget to follow

1120
00:58:57.639 --> 00:58:59.920
<v Speaker 3>Crying Jankie. We have a brand new episode the last

1121
00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:02.639
<v Speaker 3>Friday of every month, but if you can't wait until then,

1122
00:59:02.679 --> 00:59:05.559
<v Speaker 3>you can head to Crime Junkie Radio on the serious

1123
00:59:05.679 --> 00:59:08.079
<v Speaker 3>xmat for your twenty four to seven true crime fix,

1124
00:59:08.400 --> 00:59:11.119
<v Speaker 3>and you can follow me Ashley Flowers on Instagram and

1125
00:59:11.280 --> 00:59:13.559
<v Speaker 3>Ashley Flowers Crime Junkie on TikTok.

1126
00:59:14.159 --> 00:59:14.880
<v Speaker 2>Crime Junkie a