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You're reading Fading Lay. 24 00:01:08.680 --> 00:01:12.120 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 25 00:01:12.200 --> 00:01:15.239 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 26 00:01:15.319 --> 00:01:22.599 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 27 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:26.319 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 28 00:01:26.439 --> 00:01:30.959 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 29 00:01:31.319 --> 00:01:33.879 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 30 00:01:43.400 --> 00:01:48.120 Good Evening. Bill Kimberlin, doctor of Psychology, invites the reader 31 00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:52.159 on an extensive and unbiased journey inside Ohio's death Row 32 00:01:52.200 --> 00:01:56.079 and Watch Me Die. Last Words from death Row. You 33 00:01:56.120 --> 00:01:58.799 will see how these inmates think, as Kimberland not only 34 00:01:58.840 --> 00:02:02.200 spends time interview them, but also each meals with them 35 00:02:02.239 --> 00:02:05.120 and in some cases is the last person to speak 36 00:02:05.159 --> 00:02:08.400 with them before they are executed. From the moment they 37 00:02:08.439 --> 00:02:10.879 are placed on suicide watch until the moment they are 38 00:02:10.919 --> 00:02:14.199 pronounced dead right in front of them, Kimberlin will walk 39 00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:18.240 you through the twisted and complex execution process in the 40 00:02:18.280 --> 00:02:22.560 state of Ohio. Watch Me Die presents an unbiased look 41 00:02:22.599 --> 00:02:25.719 at the realities of death Row in Ohio and America 42 00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:28.840 as a whole. This book is much more than an 43 00:02:28.919 --> 00:02:33.000 argument about the death penalty. Instead, Kimberlin exposes the harsh 44 00:02:33.039 --> 00:02:34.960 truth of what it's like to be on death row, 45 00:02:35.719 --> 00:02:39.120 counting the days until your own execution, as told to 46 00:02:39.199 --> 00:02:42.639 him by those who have lived it with no physical 47 00:02:42.759 --> 00:02:46.199 or mental restraints. Kimberland's conversations earn the trust of many 48 00:02:46.240 --> 00:02:49.759 high level and violent offenders. He shares with the reader. 49 00:02:49.840 --> 00:02:52.879 These unfiltered and honest thoughts from people staring in the 50 00:02:52.879 --> 00:02:56.639 face of death. Their writings, their artwork, and their own 51 00:02:56.719 --> 00:02:59.120 words will put the reader in the room with these 52 00:02:59.199 --> 00:03:02.360 dangerous killers. Nothing is off limits, and there is nothing 53 00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:05.479 to shield Kimberland from the same hands that have taken 54 00:03:05.479 --> 00:03:09.759 countless lives, leaving Kimberland himself asking will this be my 55 00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:14.199 last trip to death Row? In this newly revised edition 56 00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:17.000 of Watch Me Die, Bill Kimberland takes the reader on 57 00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:19.960 a more intimate journey into death Row than ever before. 58 00:03:21.199 --> 00:03:25.520 This edition includes where are They Now? Section, updating the 59 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:29.759 reader on which inmates have faced their execution, which inmates 60 00:03:29.800 --> 00:03:33.319 are still counting their days, and who else has asked 61 00:03:33.400 --> 00:03:37.879 Kimberland to watch them die. The book they're featuring this 62 00:03:37.919 --> 00:03:41.639 evening is Watch Me Die. Last Words from Death Row 63 00:03:42.199 --> 00:03:46.439 with my special guests, journalist and author Bill Kimberland. Welcome 64 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:49.599 to the program, and thank you again once again for 65 00:03:50.319 --> 00:03:53.120 this interview. Bill Kimberland, welcome back. 66 00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:55.400 Thank you, thank you so much. It's an honor to 67 00:03:55.400 --> 00:03:57.199 be back on your show. Dan. I really appreciate it. 68 00:03:58.000 --> 00:04:01.639 It's a thrill because, as I mentioned before, if we 69 00:04:01.639 --> 00:04:05.120 are looking for a unique true crime book and perspective, 70 00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:09.360 this is it. And we haven't well surprised. We haven't 71 00:04:09.400 --> 00:04:13.080 spoken to since May twenty sixteen, so it's been a 72 00:04:13.120 --> 00:04:15.719 long time. And as you said, there's been a lot 73 00:04:15.719 --> 00:04:19.120 of things in this journey in the last five years, 74 00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:23.720 even more so. So let's go with this new book 75 00:04:23.800 --> 00:04:28.240 and what's contained in it. You have this nine chapters 76 00:04:28.360 --> 00:04:30.920 or so, tell us give us the breakdown of what's 77 00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:34.879 contained in this book Watch Me Die. Last words from 78 00:04:34.879 --> 00:04:35.360 Death Row. 79 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:41.600 Sure, so the book Watched Me Die. The original aspect 80 00:04:41.600 --> 00:04:45.360 of the book was to take people through Ohio's death 81 00:04:45.439 --> 00:04:50.360 Row and to try to explain to them the process 82 00:04:50.399 --> 00:04:54.480 of what an individual and inmate goes through being on 83 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:57.720 death row all the way through their execution. Fast forward 84 00:04:57.759 --> 00:05:03.040 to now. After witnessing several executions and having five or 85 00:05:03.079 --> 00:05:07.800 six at least five or six more executions that I've 86 00:05:07.800 --> 00:05:11.480 been asked to attend, not just in Ohio but elsewhere. 87 00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:16.240 It kind of brings people up to speed as to 88 00:05:17.240 --> 00:05:20.439 where Ohio sits with the death penalty, the controversy is 89 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:25.079 going on those that are facing up and coming executions 90 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:27.600 and my interactions with them as well. 91 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:35.759 Right, so give us the breakdown of these chapters if 92 00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:36.879 you could for us. 93 00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:42.120 So, I think the beginning of it is the prelude 94 00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:49.439 of to myself going into the execution chamber, and it 95 00:05:50.319 --> 00:05:54.800 literally walks you through what the process is all about, 96 00:05:56.319 --> 00:05:59.879 from the moment they prep you to the moment that 97 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:05.959 you're pronounced dead, and what it feels like for me anyways, 98 00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:12.120 as a person going in there, watching another human being executed, 99 00:06:12.120 --> 00:06:14.720 their life taken and right in front of you, whom 100 00:06:14.759 --> 00:06:18.879 you've just spoken to, perhaps maybe thirty minutes before so. 101 00:06:19.560 --> 00:06:23.000 And then the book goes on to talk about different 102 00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:29.639 inmates and different chapters on the basic background of what 103 00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:33.920 brought them to death row, the murders that they had committed. 104 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:36.839 Every one of them in the book have confessed to 105 00:06:36.920 --> 00:06:41.279 me their murders as well as some other ones. So 106 00:06:41.439 --> 00:06:45.000 none of these individuals that were executed or that will 107 00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:48.120 be executed, have ever maintained that they were innocent by 108 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:52.279 any means. And then there's other chapters that go into 109 00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:59.079 the actual death row protocols, the processes, the methods, the 110 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:03.560 fact that here in the United States, since we still 111 00:07:03.639 --> 00:07:06.720 have the death penalty, a lot of states are either 112 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:10.959 revising their protocol or their methods. In Ohio's is one 113 00:07:11.000 --> 00:07:15.439 of them. Other states have abolished them altogether. Some states 114 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:19.839 like California have putten the moratorium on them. So there's 115 00:07:19.879 --> 00:07:25.839 other champions that discuss that, and then it winds up 116 00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:30.439 talking about those that are facing their own demise on 117 00:07:31.079 --> 00:07:36.319 Ohio's execution table and or firing squad, because now that's 118 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:39.839 what we're looking to implement in the state of Ohio, 119 00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:44.279 either lethal gas or the firing squad if in fact, 120 00:07:44.319 --> 00:07:49.399 we can no longer obtain the lethal drugs used to 121 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:50.839 put these individuals to death. 122 00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:58.879 Incredible. Let's start with your first chapter and how did 123 00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:03.240 it all begin? Did you decide to study death row 124 00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:04.000 and why? 125 00:08:05.879 --> 00:08:10.000 You know, it's kind of a crazy story, but I 126 00:08:10.079 --> 00:08:15.959 was teaching at the university level, my doctorate being in psychology, 127 00:08:16.519 --> 00:08:18.879 so a lot of the classes that I would teach 128 00:08:18.879 --> 00:08:22.360 would be abnormal psychology, social psychology, things of that nature. 129 00:08:22.519 --> 00:08:26.399 And we always discussed a lot of the hot topic 130 00:08:26.480 --> 00:08:32.919 debatable issues here in this country, so gun rights, legalization 131 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:39.200 of abortion, uh, legalization of drugs, and then of course 132 00:08:39.399 --> 00:08:42.320 capital punishment. Well, I'd been fortunate enough to travel to 133 00:08:42.360 --> 00:08:43.879 a lot of different countries, so I knew a lot 134 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:48.480 about the drug laws. My family and I I've grown 135 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:51.720 up around guns hunted all my life in you know, Canada, 136 00:08:51.799 --> 00:08:55.559 the US, all over uh. So I felt comfortable teaching 137 00:08:55.600 --> 00:09:00.720 on that. I had counseled various females that have went 138 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:05.080 through the abortion process, so I felt comfortable there. But 139 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:10.639 every time the discussion came up about capital punishment, I 140 00:09:10.720 --> 00:09:17.000 felt that I just wasn't knowledgeable enough to speak as 141 00:09:17.039 --> 00:09:21.039 an educator on that topic. So when I started researching it, 142 00:09:21.120 --> 00:09:24.399 I found out that the overwhelming majority of people out 143 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:27.399 there had never been to death row, let alone witnessed 144 00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:32.120 an execution. So one of my really good friends is 145 00:09:32.120 --> 00:09:34.360 a common police call judge, and he gave me the 146 00:09:34.440 --> 00:09:37.159 name of the Attorney General's office number in the name 147 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:39.279 of the Attorney General of Ohio at the time, so 148 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:41.559 I gave them a call to see if I could, 149 00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:43.600 I don't know, be placed on a lottery to go 150 00:09:43.919 --> 00:09:46.279 see an execution or whatever. I did. That's how naive 151 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:50.159 I was. And after they hung up on me and 152 00:09:50.159 --> 00:09:53.320 I called back, they, you know, they felt bad for 153 00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:55.559 me because they had never really had that question posed 154 00:09:55.559 --> 00:09:58.480 to them before. So they were able to explain to 155 00:09:58.480 --> 00:10:02.320 me that in the Ohio Revised Code, it outlines exactly 156 00:10:02.360 --> 00:10:04.840 who can and cannot witness an execution, so only three 157 00:10:04.840 --> 00:10:07.639 people are on each side, the dependent side and then 158 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:11.159 on the prosecution state side. Victims are allowed to witness 159 00:10:11.159 --> 00:10:14.759 an execution. But they said, we'll send you the Ohio 160 00:10:14.759 --> 00:10:17.240 Advice Code. If you find any loopholes, we'll send you 161 00:10:17.279 --> 00:10:21.159 also the list of inmates scheduled Tony and good luck. 162 00:10:21.440 --> 00:10:25.200 So they sent me that information. I researched it. I 163 00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:27.639 penned a few letters to these guys, and next thing 164 00:10:27.639 --> 00:10:29.639 you know, I'm on death row, which I only ever 165 00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:32.120 intended to go one or two times, just so I 166 00:10:32.120 --> 00:10:35.320 could teach about it and say that I'd been there 167 00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:38.960 experienced at firsthand. It wasn't book knowledge only, and I 168 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:42.039 would feel comfortable doing it. And lo and behold, here 169 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:43.840 we are today, and I'm still doing it. 170 00:10:47.519 --> 00:10:51.039 You talk about the visits and the conditions under which 171 00:10:51.039 --> 00:10:55.240 you're able to visit these inmates, these dangerous killers on 172 00:10:55.279 --> 00:10:59.519 death row with as you say, nothing to lose. Maybe 173 00:10:59.519 --> 00:11:02.960 people are very surprised, what, as you write, what are 174 00:11:03.039 --> 00:11:06.559 some of the conditions in which this dangerous person and 175 00:11:06.639 --> 00:11:07.679 you are able to visit. 176 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:12.440 So when I go and visit these individuals, and I'll 177 00:11:12.519 --> 00:11:16.440 use Ohio's example mainly because that's what this book is about. 178 00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:21.279 Other states are different, some are even more free visitation wise. 179 00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:25.240 But there are no handcuffs, there are no shackles. We're 180 00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:28.440 not divided by plexiglass, and I have to speak on the phone. 181 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:32.320 We get to sit at a picnic table on death 182 00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:36.279 Row and we can eat and drink whatever is in 183 00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:39.000 the vending machines. There's microwaves there. We can heat up 184 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:45.240 sandwiches or pieces or whatever, candy, whatever they want, and 185 00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:50.720 we can discuss freely everything and anything. Very rarely are 186 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:55.519 there guards around. They'll, you know, they'll come by. They'll 187 00:11:55.519 --> 00:12:00.519 take pictures of us together if we so desire. As 188 00:12:00.600 --> 00:12:04.519 it gets closer to the execution than one of the inmates, 189 00:12:04.559 --> 00:12:07.679 I was with him for eight hours, just right alone 190 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:11.039 there on Death Row, up and down freely, walking and 191 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:14.519 talking for you know, eight hours straight. We got to 192 00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:18.000 order meals delivered to the prison and everything else. So 193 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:22.639 it's it's not like you see on TV. They do 194 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:25.720 like to present to the media and to the public 195 00:12:25.759 --> 00:12:29.120 watching it that it's a very safe and secure environment, 196 00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:33.759 but when you're there one on one, it's nothing could 197 00:12:33.759 --> 00:12:37.879 be further from the truth, because like I've had inmates, 198 00:12:38.039 --> 00:12:40.360 and I think it's outlined in the last chapter the book, 199 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:44.000 one Innate in particular, he flat out told me that, 200 00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:46.639 you know, the guards will let anybody come into death 201 00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:49.320 Row to visit. We decide if you get to go 202 00:12:49.399 --> 00:12:53.320 home or not, because it's their house. So that's, uh, 203 00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:56.240 you know that rings true. It's a there's a there's 204 00:12:56.279 --> 00:12:58.320 a lot of respect that I give these guys and 205 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:02.240 they in turn expect me, and uh so then I've 206 00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:05.679 been able to do it for years and years now 207 00:13:05.759 --> 00:13:08.879 because I've never disrespected him and I've never sold any 208 00:13:08.879 --> 00:13:09.799 of them out. 209 00:13:11.960 --> 00:13:15.639 You talk about Chris Newton, and this is a Mansfield 210 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:21.240 inmate and is related to in marriage to your friend 211 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:22.240 who's a prosecutor. 212 00:13:23.159 --> 00:13:27.759 So tell us a time, please judge now, Yeah, so yeah, 213 00:13:27.799 --> 00:13:33.919 He's related to Judge Roger Bennett, who through marriage just 214 00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:37.200 was a cousin of his. And uh, when I was 215 00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:39.559 going through the process of trying to figure out who 216 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:43.120 I should contact on death row, He's like, you know, 217 00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:47.440 why don't you just rate Chris and and see what 218 00:13:47.639 --> 00:13:50.399 he says. And I'm like, Chris, who's Chris? And then 219 00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:53.399 he explained to me who he was. And he turned 220 00:13:53.399 --> 00:13:56.799 out to be one of the most man How do 221 00:13:56.919 --> 00:14:02.799 I even explain it? He was very He was not 222 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:09.039 your normal person by any means that you can imagine 223 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:12.480 at all. He only looked forward to his execution. He's 224 00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:15.639 the only person I've ever come across it couldn't wait 225 00:14:15.960 --> 00:14:19.919 to be executed. And he just knew he could not 226 00:14:19.960 --> 00:14:22.480 live in society and he hated prison. So what he 227 00:14:22.519 --> 00:14:26.679 did was told the guards at one time that the 228 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:28.519 gangs were after him, so he needed to be put 229 00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:32.159 in protective custody. They said, fine, Newton, will take you 230 00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:35.559 to PC protective custody. He said, I'm walking down PC. 231 00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:37.600 They're trying to figure out who's going to be my selling. 232 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:40.960 He said, I was looking for somebody a week and 233 00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:44.759 young that would be easy to kill. He said, so 234 00:14:45.080 --> 00:14:48.000 I spotted somebody, he said. I told the guard that 235 00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:51.360 dude and I we were bunkies before U sell me 236 00:14:51.399 --> 00:14:54.600 with him and the guards I find whatever. And this 237 00:14:54.639 --> 00:14:58.159 guy was short term. He was set to be released 238 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:02.759 within the year, and he said that night he told 239 00:15:02.840 --> 00:15:05.440 him he's like you and I were going to have 240 00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:08.320 sex tonight, and the guy said, no, last I don't 241 00:15:08.360 --> 00:15:11.120 think so it s that's not what I do. And 242 00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:13.559 Newton told me that's exactly what he needed to hear. 243 00:15:14.679 --> 00:15:18.159 So when the guy went to sleep, he took the 244 00:15:19.159 --> 00:15:22.600 band out of his sweatpants, the rope, and he strangled him, 245 00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:25.440 which he thought strangled him to death, but he said 246 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:29.279 it didn't happen that easy. And then he even asked me, 247 00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:31.600 have you ever strangled him by to death? You realize 248 00:15:31.639 --> 00:15:33.799 how hard it is. I'm like, no, I got to 249 00:15:33.799 --> 00:15:37.000 be honest with you. I've never strangled anyone to death, 250 00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:40.360 and he said, well, let me tell you it's hard. 251 00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:42.919 He said next saying, I know this guy's gasping, so 252 00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:46.080 I just started beating and when I started beating him, 253 00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:48.559 the blood went everywhere. When the blood started going everywhere, 254 00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:53.000 it just turned him on sexually. So he killed him 255 00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:57.600 and stripped down, masturbated all over him, and then ate 256 00:15:57.679 --> 00:16:00.720 his dinner. I ate a pair and waited the guards 257 00:16:00.919 --> 00:16:04.159 to show up the next morning, and they did. And 258 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:06.320 of course you're sitting there thinking, because you have to 259 00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:08.240 keep a straight face, you don't want these guys thinking 260 00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:12.200 that you're judging them. And I'm thinking, okay, is he 261 00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:14.600 really telling me the truth or e bellishing? Because again 262 00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:17.679 I'm new with this. And the next thing I know, 263 00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:20.639 after his execution, he signed his case file over to me, 264 00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:23.240 and I have the videos from the prison of the 265 00:16:23.320 --> 00:16:26.639 pictures of the scene and everything, and sure enough he 266 00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:28.840 was not exaggerating at all. 267 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:36.519 He also note a funny occurrence, I guess humorous when 268 00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:40.879 a caseworker comes in and admonishes him for chewing tobacco 269 00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:43.240 and says he could write them up for that, And 270 00:16:43.279 --> 00:16:47.039 you say, the look on Chris's face was priceless. What 271 00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:49.879 else does he do and say in response? 272 00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:54.879 So he did not like this particular case manager that 273 00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:57.960 was on death row. And what they're responsible for is 274 00:16:58.080 --> 00:17:01.080 take any grievances I believe, and you know, give them 275 00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:03.480 their visitation list and things like that. So when we're 276 00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:09.200 sitting in this room that because this was maybe days 277 00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:12.680 before his execution. He and I were sitting in there 278 00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:15.599 in the case major comes walking in. Of course, Chris 279 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:20.359 Newton was chewing tobacco at the time, and he looks 280 00:17:20.440 --> 00:17:23.640 right at Newton and he says, Newton, you realize that 281 00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:26.640 I can write you up for that, right And he 282 00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:31.079 of course he interrupted us talking, which Chris did not appreciate, 283 00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:33.359 so he just stopped dead in his tracks and he 284 00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:36.079 looked right at him. He's like, yeah, and you do 285 00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:39.480 realize that I'm scheduled to die in a couple of 286 00:17:39.559 --> 00:17:41.640 days and I will kill you right now, So help 287 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:43.839 me God if you don't get the hell out of here, 288 00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:46.799 because I have nothing to lose and everything the game, 289 00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:50.079 because I've hated you since day one. And the guy 290 00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:52.240 just looked at me and he says he's all yours 291 00:17:52.039 --> 00:17:54.960 and turned and left. I'm like, well, geez, thanks. 292 00:17:56.160 --> 00:18:03.799 So, yeah, you have people in there you call inside sources, 293 00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:07.680 and these are people give that are inmates that have 294 00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:11.440 introduced you to other inmates. You have a reputation in there, 295 00:18:11.480 --> 00:18:14.839 and you touched on how you deal with these people 296 00:18:14.920 --> 00:18:18.240 to gain their trust because they are imparting to you 297 00:18:18.920 --> 00:18:22.799 incredible information that they likely didn't impart even to their 298 00:18:22.839 --> 00:18:26.039 attorneys or anyone else, and then asking you to come 299 00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:30.359 and witness their execution. So tell us more about some 300 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:33.839 of the inmates that you did meet and some of 301 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:37.680 the things that you noticed that were characteristic of all 302 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:39.319 of these people regardless. 303 00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:44.160 So yeah, I've been very fortunate in that aspect that 304 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:52.559 because inmates they talk amongst one another, and when they 305 00:18:52.680 --> 00:18:57.039 hear that, they're somebody reliable, and apparently I'm one of 306 00:18:57.079 --> 00:19:00.599 those guys to them anyways that isn't going to go 307 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:04.880 out and talk to the media, sell their artwork, sell 308 00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:06.839 their signatures, because there's a lot of money to be 309 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:09.400 made on death rope. Then all of a sudden they 310 00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:12.960 consider me a stand up guy, so then they reach 311 00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:17.880 out to me, And then in turn, what I've realized 312 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:21.119 over the years is what it takes is a lot 313 00:19:21.160 --> 00:19:24.680 of time and patience with these individuals. So I might 314 00:19:24.759 --> 00:19:29.480 interview these guys for weeks and months before I ever 315 00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:32.279 even get into what they actually did or how many 316 00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:36.119 murders they committed or anything like that, because I've found 317 00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:38.680 that the least amount of questions you ask, the more 318 00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:42.240 they'll tell you. And so the next thing, you know, 319 00:19:42.279 --> 00:19:45.440 they'll start confessing other murders to me. A couple of 320 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:48.920 them have, anyways working with another serial killer right now 321 00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:53.079 who's working on some maps to locations in the state 322 00:19:53.079 --> 00:19:58.039 of Ohio, and I think he's convicted of three or 323 00:19:58.119 --> 00:20:04.000 five already right now. So they'll start divulging this information 324 00:20:04.039 --> 00:20:07.759 to me without me even really asking, because they know 325 00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:12.000 that I'm not going out there trying to sell their 326 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:18.519 information or anything. So yeah, it's it's been different in 327 00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:21.720 that aspect as well, because I would have never expected 328 00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:28.680 that in my entire life that these killers, whom I 329 00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:33.920 kind of describe as dangerously normal because they don't have 330 00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:37.799 serial killer tattooed on their forehead. They don't have you know, 331 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:42.039 they don't. They don't appear other than somebody like Chris Newton. 332 00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:47.400 They don't normally appear to be bad people, but they 333 00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:51.839 really really are. I mean, somebody like Samuel Little, who 334 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:55.880 is suspected of killing ninety three. He started out in 335 00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:59.839 Ohio and he reached out to me, did not look 336 00:20:59.880 --> 00:21:02.920 like a bad person at all, but based on what 337 00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:07.680 he's done. 338 00:21:05.839 --> 00:21:09.079 Talk about in this book, the most evil human being 339 00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:11.559 you have ever sat down with in your entire life 340 00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:17.640 now that's that's quite the introduction. And this is williams Sap. Yeah, 341 00:21:17.720 --> 00:21:20.640 tell us about the first contract contact that you had 342 00:21:20.680 --> 00:21:25.000 with him, and just that communication. 343 00:21:25.880 --> 00:21:29.880 That was all so William Yeah, So William Sap again, 344 00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:33.920 very interesting person to talk to. Does not appear to 345 00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:38.119 be this vicious serial killer, mass murder and type that 346 00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:44.359 you would stereotypically see in the media or news outlets 347 00:21:44.440 --> 00:21:47.400 or anything like that. Out of the blue one day, 348 00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:50.559 I think it was just after witnessing an execution. The 349 00:21:50.599 --> 00:21:54.960 following week, he writes me this letter and it's got cartoons. 350 00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:57.880 He's a good artist, and so the whole envelopes painted 351 00:21:57.960 --> 00:22:01.400 up with cartoons. And I did is this letter from 352 00:22:01.400 --> 00:22:05.799 a guy that I had never heard of before introducing 353 00:22:05.880 --> 00:22:09.000 himself to me, saying that he didn't want to interfere 354 00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:12.000 with the person I had been talking to until after 355 00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:15.359 his execution, but however he had heard about me, and 356 00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:17.720 if I really wanted to talk to somebody who was 357 00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:22.839 a real natural born killer, meaning he thinks he was 358 00:22:22.839 --> 00:22:26.559 born this way, if I can handle it, come and 359 00:22:26.599 --> 00:22:28.240 see him. Not too many people have been able to 360 00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:31.759 handle him though, just so you know, And that's how 361 00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:34.400 he put it in the letter. So of course that 362 00:22:34.519 --> 00:22:39.200 intrigued me, and I went and I visited with William 363 00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:44.559 Sap and we have been in constant communication since, and 364 00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:50.680 he is probably still to this day, the most evil, 365 00:22:51.079 --> 00:22:54.039 vile killer that I've ever come face to face with, 366 00:22:54.440 --> 00:22:57.720 and I've come in contact with countless numbers. 367 00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:06.920 Now you talk about numbers of suspected killing, he says 368 00:23:05.880 --> 00:23:09.440 that people have said that he's suspected of killing seven. 369 00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:13.079 He says, you say, he's very matter of fact and 370 00:23:13.160 --> 00:23:16.599 not emotional whatsoever, But he says, look, as you have 371 00:23:16.680 --> 00:23:19.559 to have proof. He never forget a murder. He says, 372 00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:24.640 I've killed fifty people. I can prove exacty people. Yeah, 373 00:23:24.680 --> 00:23:28.240 you talked about souvenirs too. People keep souvenirs like watches 374 00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:31.759 and jewelry. He kept other souvenirs, and he had other 375 00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:33.839 darker interest than murder. 376 00:23:33.880 --> 00:23:39.279 Even yes, you know, he was very matter of fact 377 00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:44.599 and in fact, some of the agents that I was 378 00:23:44.680 --> 00:23:47.640 dealing with at the time, the FBI had devised me 379 00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:51.240 a couple of questions to ask him because I do 380 00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:56.200 have some maps to other victims of his, and he 381 00:23:56.960 --> 00:23:59.480 when I went in to see him the very first time, 382 00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:02.759 in fact, the guards couldn't believe I was coming to 383 00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:06.359 see him. He didn't really have very many visitors. But 384 00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:09.119 you know, they said, hey, you know, we hear he's 385 00:24:09.160 --> 00:24:11.880 good for seventy seventy five murders. What do you think. 386 00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:15.279 I'm like, I don't think anything. I had never sat 387 00:24:15.319 --> 00:24:17.480 down and discussed anything with him. Plus, I don't like 388 00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:19.240 to normally talk to the guards a whole lot because 389 00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:20.839 if the inmates see you talking to the guards, and 390 00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:24.720 that looks very suspicious, which could be very unhealthy for me. 391 00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:29.319 So we sat down, we were eating and drinking and 392 00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:31.799 talking about the weather and politics everything. So then I 393 00:24:31.880 --> 00:24:33.160 just threw it out there. I said, hey, I hear 394 00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:37.160 you're good for like seventy and again he just stopped 395 00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:42.079 it very flat affect, and he said, what who told 396 00:24:42.119 --> 00:24:43.599 you that? I said, you know, word is if you're 397 00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:46.799 good for like seventy murders, that's true. And he's like, no, 398 00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:50.480 not at all. He's like, I killed fifty people if 399 00:24:50.519 --> 00:24:53.039 I would have killed seventy, And where I would own 400 00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:57.039 up to that? He said, because anybody that's ever taken 401 00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:01.839