1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,200 Speaker 1: But we do have a couple of fine gentlemen here 2 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:06,839 joining us via Microsoft Teams. So I'll introduce first someone 3 00:00:06,879 --> 00:00:11,919 longtime listeners are familiar with, of course, Eric Pilcher. Hello, Eric, Hello, Matt, 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:14,919 how are you good? Good, Welcome to the program. Of course, 5 00:00:15,119 --> 00:00:17,559 Eric and I host the Tough Bumps podcast together, and 6 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,000 Eric's been a part of this show off and on 7 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,079 for years now, years and years. So but I did 8 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:27,120 there's a specific reason why I invited Eric to co 9 00:00:27,199 --> 00:00:31,079 host the hour one segment with me this morning, because 10 00:00:31,079 --> 00:00:34,240 we also have with us David Shabbaz is with us, 11 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,560 and David welcome to the show. Of course. David is 12 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,960 an author and a journalist, and of course is the 13 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:45,280 author of Black Gold Discover Pro Wrestling's Black World Champions, 14 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,799 the third edition. And so David, we're excited to talk 15 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:51,439 to you because Eric and I, of course we're both 16 00:00:52,359 --> 00:00:56,240 lifelong fans of professional wrestling, and so I was thrilled 17 00:00:57,039 --> 00:00:59,079 when you reached out to us about coming on the 18 00:00:59,359 --> 00:01:01,920 coming on the show. Oh, and it's great to have here, 19 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,319 and congratulations on the third edition of the book. That's 20 00:01:04,359 --> 00:01:04,879 pretty cool. 21 00:01:05,879 --> 00:01:08,159 Speaker 2: Oh, thank you, and I'm glad to be here with. 22 00:01:08,079 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: You both absolutely, So. The first thing I'd like to 23 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,680 know from you is why did you Why did you 24 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,599 write the book? What was your inspiration for doing this? 25 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,359 Speaker 3: Well, that's sort of a long story. I'll try to 26 00:01:21,439 --> 00:01:25,920 keep it a little short. This particular book, I really 27 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:28,120 wrote this book. 28 00:01:27,879 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 2: To further my brother's legacy. My brother Julian. 29 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:37,359 Speaker 3: Was writing about black professional wrestlers since nineteen ninety nine, 30 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:43,000 and when he passed in twenty twenty, going through his things, 31 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:47,079 I found the first edition of this book, Pro Wrestling's 32 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:51,280 Black World Champions, and it was really a small ebook 33 00:01:52,159 --> 00:01:59,040 that really wasn't distributed on a large scale. So paying 34 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:03,760 tribute to him, I put it out. A second edition 35 00:02:03,879 --> 00:02:07,239 out in twenty twenty two. I thought that would be 36 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:10,680 good because there had been a few more wrestlers at 37 00:02:10,719 --> 00:02:15,039 that time. There were thirteen in his first publication who 38 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,599 were profiled, and a few more had actually won the 39 00:02:18,599 --> 00:02:22,840 title in twenty two, and so I put that second 40 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:27,879 edition out, And this is the third, which is larger. 41 00:02:28,879 --> 00:02:32,879 It has more of the professional wrestlers in this particular edition, 42 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,080 and this one is a little more of me, if 43 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,159 you will, but it's still furthering my brother's legacy. 44 00:02:39,599 --> 00:02:42,759 Speaker 1: Oh that's outstanding, and I really like the way that 45 00:02:43,199 --> 00:02:45,159 you open the book with, well, there's a lot of 46 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,960 information in this book, but you open it with that scene. 47 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,120 And I'm sure Eric probably remembers this vividly as well. 48 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,639 You go back to that scene where Booker T and 49 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:57,439 you gave the whole backstory, which is great. You go 50 00:02:57,479 --> 00:03:00,560 into a lot of detail. It gets pretty granular. Booker 51 00:03:00,599 --> 00:03:02,520 T is in WWE? 52 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:03,159 Speaker 2: Was it? 53 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: Had it switched out? I forget? Was it still wwfor 54 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:07,280 had it changed? At that point? 55 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 4: The seeing the WWE switch happened in two thousand and two. 56 00:03:14,159 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, because time time gets fuzzy for me. 57 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 2: Yeah it was. It was WWE at that time. It 58 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:24,039 was Matt was two thousand and three. 59 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: Gotcha? Okay, gotcha? Gotcha? 60 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,199 Speaker 5: If it was the infamous Booker T Triple. 61 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:33,159 Speaker 4: H Yes episode, then yes, it would have been two 62 00:03:33,199 --> 00:03:37,479 thousand and three. And I want to say, as a 63 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:42,199 Triple H fan, that is one of the largest blemishes 64 00:03:42,439 --> 00:03:48,039 on his career, hands down, that whole I remember watching it, 65 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:50,479 and I'm sorry to go into the woods here, I 66 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:56,319 remember watching it and being at at twenty years old, 67 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:04,800 being uncomfortable. I mean, sorry to say this, but he 68 00:04:05,759 --> 00:04:08,120 stopped short of calling Booker t boy. 69 00:04:09,199 --> 00:04:12,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was definitely, uh, there was some definitely some 70 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:17,040 racial overtones to the dialogue the Triple Hs spoke and 71 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:19,240 and it was not subtle. You know, maybe it was 72 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,199 intended to be, and maybe from Vince McMahon's perspective it was, 73 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,360 but it was not, you know what I mean, But 74 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,879 but it was it was not subtle. And I thought that, David. 75 00:04:28,879 --> 00:04:30,480 I thought that that was a perfect way to open 76 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,879 the book talking about that specific promo and that storyline, 77 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,959 and of course for wrestling fans who are are familiar 78 00:04:37,959 --> 00:04:40,959 with that whole uh, that whole angle, we know that 79 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,079 the hero did not prevail at WrestleMania and did not 80 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,480 win the title, which a lot of people at the 81 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,079 time thought was a mistake and many people still think 82 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:51,759 that was a mistake. But I'm curious, David, when you 83 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,759 when you opened the book with that scene, was it 84 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:58,000 was it obvious to you that that was the one 85 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,399 to go with or or did you have to kind 86 00:05:00,399 --> 00:05:03,519 of make a decision because maybe there's I mean, if 87 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:08,160 you were to ask me about a racially tinged, to 88 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:12,480 put it lightly angle in quote unquote modern day WWE, 89 00:05:12,519 --> 00:05:14,600 I would That's probably the first one I would think of. 90 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,040 But I'm curious, I mean, were there other Were there 91 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,639 other options as far as what the opening scene was 92 00:05:19,639 --> 00:05:21,240 going to be in the book to kind of to 93 00:05:21,319 --> 00:05:22,319 kind of set up the book. 94 00:05:23,759 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 3: No, not at all, because the title of the book 95 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,560 is pro Wrestling Black World Champions. So when somebody is 96 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,959 saying someone like you doesn't deserve to be a champion, 97 00:05:37,319 --> 00:05:39,519 and a white guy is saying that to a black guy, 98 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:41,480 that was there was no other choice that was the 99 00:05:41,519 --> 00:05:44,160 appropriate text to use for this. 100 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: Absolutely, no, thats no, that makes sense, that's perfect. Yeah. Yeah, 101 00:05:47,959 --> 00:05:49,839 you know in Booker T is such a great talent too, 102 00:05:50,199 --> 00:05:52,199 and he was a you know that I used to 103 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,120 love that catchphrase five time, five time, five times, five times, 104 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:56,279 five time world champion. 105 00:05:56,319 --> 00:06:01,079 Speaker 3: And would you actually said six times that promo? 106 00:06:01,879 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 1: You do? You pointed that out in the book. Yeah, 107 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:05,240 which was. 108 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:09,759 Speaker 4: Great, David a question, And actually I wanted to do 109 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,720 something to the Booker T story. 110 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:18,759 Speaker 5: I've actually heard through various shoot interviews. 111 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 4: That Rick Flair had a lot to do with that promo. 112 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,439 Speaker 3: I mean, because Rick Rick was there in the ring 113 00:06:27,519 --> 00:06:29,920 with Triple H though he didn't say anything. 114 00:06:30,319 --> 00:06:32,439 Speaker 2: But but he's there in his corner. 115 00:06:34,319 --> 00:06:37,399 Speaker 4: I mean a lot of There are a few African 116 00:06:37,439 --> 00:06:46,600 Americans that have said and even Caucasian wrestlers have said 117 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:52,560 Rick Flair is by proxy a very uh I don't 118 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:58,040 want to say racist individual, but definitely has said racist statements. 119 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:03,000 And I have heard that that notorious promo Rick Flair 120 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:07,360 kind of fed Triple H things to say at that. 121 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,079 Speaker 5: I think it was, I want to say, and I 122 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:12,839 could be wrong. 123 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 4: I'm trying to recall on the spot here and memory 124 00:07:16,399 --> 00:07:17,720 can serve you horribly. 125 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,439 Speaker 5: I was Bruce Pritchard. 126 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:25,879 Speaker 4: That said it on something to wrestle when they were 127 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:31,399 talking about WrestleMania WrestleMania twenty nineteen. 128 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:32,399 Speaker 5: I believe it was. 129 00:07:33,079 --> 00:07:38,399 Speaker 4: Yes, I believe he said that Vince and Rick were 130 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:40,360 kind of behind. 131 00:07:40,439 --> 00:07:43,319 Speaker 1: That wouldn't surprise me. I suppose, what do you say, David. 132 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I haven't heard that, so I can't say whether 133 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:50,680 that was true or not. 134 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 2: I do know. 135 00:07:53,279 --> 00:07:57,279 Speaker 3: I'm a large segment of the black community really likes 136 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,279 Rick Flair. I mean, I don't think that Rick would 137 00:08:01,319 --> 00:08:04,959 purposely try to insult, you know, his fan base like that, 138 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:06,439 But I don't know. 139 00:08:06,839 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: That is a good point you make David, because the 140 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:12,879 hip hop community really in a big way, strangely late 141 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,720 in his career, but really embraced has embraced Ric Flair 142 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:18,319 in a lot of ways. So that's yeah, that's that's 143 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:19,279 an interesting point. 144 00:08:19,319 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 5: Too racist by any stretch. 145 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, I want to say that, you know, and David, 146 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,040 I'm sure can back this up. 147 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 5: Uh pro wrestling and. 148 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:38,519 Speaker 4: Up until I would say probably the late aes when 149 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:44,159 w c W made Ron uh Ron Simmons world champion 150 00:08:44,879 --> 00:08:49,679 was a good boys network so to speak. It really 151 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:58,679 wrestling has a very complicated history with African Americans and 152 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,440 it's very sad. I mean to the point where you 153 00:09:01,519 --> 00:09:06,559 had a very great talent in w W E name. 154 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 5: Bad News Brown. 155 00:09:08,279 --> 00:09:17,399 Speaker 4: Yes that in Stampede Wrestling was an accolated wrestler, but 156 00:09:17,759 --> 00:09:21,679 when he Alan Cosage. But when he got to WWE, 157 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:28,440 they made in this militant African American from Harlem. I 158 00:09:28,519 --> 00:09:33,240 mean things like that, where you hear guys that were 159 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,559 in Stampede that's like no Brown could go. 160 00:09:37,519 --> 00:09:40,559 Speaker 5: Yeah, he was his page in Stampede. 161 00:09:40,879 --> 00:09:45,799 Speaker 1: Historically, the stereotypes have played a heavy role in in 162 00:09:45,799 --> 00:09:48,159 in wrestling, and you know, I mean, I would say 163 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:50,799 until recently, I mean, I think, I think wrestling has 164 00:09:50,879 --> 00:09:54,600 changed a lot, but but yeah, historically there has been 165 00:09:54,799 --> 00:09:58,159 there's been a lot of stereotypes in professional wrestling. Absolutely. 166 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 4: I guess my question David is going through all of that, 167 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:08,480 did you was there ever? I guess anger that rose 168 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,159 up in you when you would I'm sure in your 169 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,480 research you encountered this. Was there ever, that anger that 170 00:10:15,519 --> 00:10:19,360 you're like, Wow, this is awful, this is horrible. I mean, 171 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:24,320 there's long been the story of Bill Watts in. 172 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 5: A bathroom dropping. 173 00:10:27,159 --> 00:10:32,759 Speaker 4: That's about Junkyard Dog, and Junkyard Dog heard the epithets 174 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,720 and that's what made him decide to leave for WWE 175 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:37,200 then WWA. 176 00:10:37,799 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 5: So was there ever a sense of anger? 177 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 4: And did it enhance your responsibility to get these stories out? 178 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 2: No? Not at all. 179 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 3: And I don't want to get off track, but I 180 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:54,080 really hate. 181 00:10:53,799 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 2: It when people are driven by negative energy. 182 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,799 Speaker 3: Yeah, somebody told me I couldn't do something, so now 183 00:11:00,799 --> 00:11:04,120 I'm gonna I'm about to prove them wrong. That's negative energy, 184 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:06,559 and I don't think that's sustainable. 185 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 2: And I don't like. 186 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,639 Speaker 3: My focus comes from my desire and what I want 187 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:13,840 to do. I don't care what anybody else has to say, 188 00:11:13,919 --> 00:11:18,320 my internal worth and internal value and my focus is 189 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:22,240 strong enough. I don't need somebody on the outside to 190 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,600 make me upset to make me want to do something 191 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,200 or excel in it. I really hate when people say 192 00:11:27,399 --> 00:11:29,679 I'm using my haters as my motivators. 193 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:30,759 Speaker 2: No, I don't know. 194 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 3: That's negative energy for me. So no, that was never 195 00:11:35,039 --> 00:11:37,960 really anything that drove me. And like you said, I've 196 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:43,080 been watching wrestling. I'm fifty five years old, almost fifty six. 197 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:48,879 I've been watching wrestling all of my life. So yes, 198 00:11:49,039 --> 00:11:52,879 I've seen a lot of those stories. I've seen the racism. 199 00:11:52,919 --> 00:11:57,639 So it wasn't really anything that really surprised me in 200 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:00,639 a way that would make me really upset about it. 201 00:12:00,799 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense, because the book itself is very positive. 202 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:05,720 You know, you you tell that, you tell the story, 203 00:12:05,759 --> 00:12:08,879 you you share the scene about a booker T and 204 00:12:08,879 --> 00:12:11,080 Triple H to open the book, and then you you know, 205 00:12:11,159 --> 00:12:14,519 you catalog all these all these African American wrestlers who 206 00:12:14,519 --> 00:12:18,440 had become many world champions or tag team champions and 207 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,360 so forth, and and it's a very positive read. I 208 00:12:21,519 --> 00:12:25,559 was particularly I I especially enjoyed the part about uh 209 00:12:25,639 --> 00:12:30,039 Ron Simmons because I vividly remember watching that match on 210 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:33,440 television when Ron Simmons beat Vader for the world title, 211 00:12:33,519 --> 00:12:35,600 and I just thought it was so cool, you know, 212 00:12:35,759 --> 00:12:38,320 and they a w c W at the time, you know, 213 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,200 they they did make a kind of a big deal 214 00:12:40,399 --> 00:12:43,360 about you know, Ron Simmons is the first black world Champion. 215 00:12:43,799 --> 00:12:45,879 But it's funny though in the moment watching that, I 216 00:12:45,919 --> 00:12:47,759 wasn't even thinking about that. I was just thinking because 217 00:12:47,799 --> 00:12:49,840 I was I was a Ron Simmons fan, and it 218 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,559 was a surprise, uh, because he was substituting for was 219 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,639 it it was Sting, right, it was supposed to be Sting. Yeah, 220 00:12:56,799 --> 00:12:58,759 So so I thought the whole thing was so cool, 221 00:12:58,799 --> 00:13:00,840 and I thought the finish of that was just really 222 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,240 cool too. Just everything about it was awesome, and I 223 00:13:03,279 --> 00:13:05,639 just remember I popped for it watching it on television. 224 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,600 But but that was one of my favorite parts because 225 00:13:08,639 --> 00:13:11,720 that was a moment that really connected with me. And then, uh, 226 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:13,759 you know, and of course Ron Simmons went on to 227 00:13:13,759 --> 00:13:17,039 have a great career eventually in u w WUS for Ruke, 228 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,279 and you know, just everything everything he went on to 229 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,200 do was amazing. But but that was such a that 230 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,240 was such a huge moment, and uh, and I love that, 231 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:27,879 and and I love the way you you know, the 232 00:13:27,919 --> 00:13:30,200 way you really took the time to go into a 233 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,720 lot of detail giving the histories. Some of these black 234 00:13:33,879 --> 00:13:37,120 wrestlers were people I'd never even heard of, and some 235 00:13:37,159 --> 00:13:39,399 of them, obviously I was very familiar with, and some 236 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,120 I was kind of familiar with, like Ernie Ladd, for example. 237 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:44,519 I knew who Ernie Ladd was, didn't know much about him. 238 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:46,840 Pretty interesting guy, so I got to learn about him 239 00:13:46,879 --> 00:13:49,440 reading your book. So but it's it's a very positive read. 240 00:13:49,799 --> 00:13:52,279 Speaker 4: I'm I just wanted to say, I'm shocked that there 241 00:13:52,279 --> 00:13:57,000 hasn't been something more in depth done about Earning Lad. 242 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:03,799 Speaker 5: Just you want to talk about not just. 243 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 4: To say call him an African American Pro wrestling champion 244 00:14:11,519 --> 00:14:16,960 is in my opinion, it trivializes him because he is 245 00:14:17,759 --> 00:14:20,279 paramount in the territory days. 246 00:14:20,799 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 5: He is equally. 247 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 4: A top I would say, top ten talent all time 248 00:14:28,559 --> 00:14:33,600 in the territory days. If it wasn't for him, you, 249 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:39,360 I don't think Mid South wrestling is anywhere near as 250 00:14:39,399 --> 00:14:40,600 successful as it was. 251 00:14:40,679 --> 00:14:43,519 Speaker 5: Him and Jyde carried that promotion. 252 00:14:43,679 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 4: Because if they were the top faces and to get 253 00:14:49,039 --> 00:14:55,639 heels over like the Free Birds, Ted DBIASI and all 254 00:14:55,720 --> 00:15:03,320 those guys. You need powerhouse faces. Ernie Ladd just you 255 00:15:03,399 --> 00:15:07,120 talk about a presence. Even watching the old deep footage 256 00:15:07,159 --> 00:15:11,240 I have of him, he walks into the arena and 257 00:15:11,519 --> 00:15:15,720 your eyes are just drawn to him. You're captivated, and 258 00:15:15,759 --> 00:15:17,840 he doesn't even have to say a word. 259 00:15:18,399 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 5: So it's shocking to. 260 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 4: Me that no one has done anything like book like 261 00:15:26,559 --> 00:15:30,799 major book wise or documentary wise on him. And to 262 00:15:31,039 --> 00:15:33,600 piggyback on what David said, I think it's because pro 263 00:15:33,679 --> 00:15:39,399 wrestling fans we have a tendency to focus on negative, 264 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,240 and there was a lot of negative with Ernie Ladd there. 265 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,200 You couldn't do a dark side of the ring on 266 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:52,200 Big Head. Yeah, you don't hear guys and shoot interviews 267 00:15:52,759 --> 00:15:56,440 go off about Ernie Ladd was horrible. Ernie Ladd did this, 268 00:15:56,919 --> 00:16:00,279 so there isn't the notorious off. 269 00:16:00,559 --> 00:16:05,879 Speaker 5: But man, you talk about a talent and a guy that. 270 00:16:06,039 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 4: Could guy could probably wrestle a plastic bag and sell 271 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:14,679 out the Sportatorium. 272 00:16:15,519 --> 00:16:19,399 Speaker 1: Yeah right, Yeah. Like I said, I'd always been kind 273 00:16:19,399 --> 00:16:20,840 of aware of him, but didn't know much about him 274 00:16:20,879 --> 00:16:22,720 until reading and reading the book. 275 00:16:23,919 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 4: Ernie, Ernie Ladd is one of those guys that the 276 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,159 word it is thrown around. 277 00:16:32,559 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 1: Yeah it, yeah, yeah. 278 00:16:36,559 --> 00:16:39,799 Speaker 5: Davidating, I'm what you're saying. 279 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,279 Speaker 2: I mean just his his physical presence. 280 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 3: He was so imposing just walking into an arena, and 281 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,320 and and of course then he would tell you I'm 282 00:16:49,399 --> 00:16:54,120 six foot nine, three hundred pounds you disintimidatingly yea. 283 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 2: His words and his. 284 00:16:55,360 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: Promos, Yeah, yeah, no doubt, David. I'm curious who who 285 00:17:01,039 --> 00:17:03,519 did your research for the book? Who who's included in 286 00:17:03,559 --> 00:17:06,920 the book? Who you think are and there may be 287 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:11,680 multiple examples, anyone who you are surprised that people don't 288 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,880 know more about. Is there anyone in the book who 289 00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:17,839 you feel like, Wow, this person really contributed a lot 290 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:22,359 to professional wrestling, and it's actually surprising that people don't 291 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,079 know more about this individual, or that they're not in 292 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,680 the WWE Hall of Fame for example, or or any anybody. 293 00:17:28,839 --> 00:17:31,519 Do you feel that way about? 294 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:33,079 Speaker 2: Not really, I would. 295 00:17:33,079 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 3: I would say, well, Ernie Ladd, for one, because the 296 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:40,000 one thing that I didn't know about Ernie in the 297 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,759 beginning was that in the mid South, Ernie was the 298 00:17:43,799 --> 00:17:45,400 first African American booker. 299 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 2: Oh okay, it was not only a wrestler. 300 00:17:48,519 --> 00:17:51,039 Speaker 3: I mean that shows the kind of confidence that Bill 301 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:52,559 Watts had in him. 302 00:17:52,799 --> 00:17:56,920 Speaker 2: To let him be a booker. Yeah, he was the first, 303 00:17:57,039 --> 00:17:58,680 so yet that surprised me. 304 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,519 Speaker 3: I would guess also in modern times now, I don't 305 00:18:02,559 --> 00:18:03,559 think people. 306 00:18:04,799 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 2: People understand Ron Killings are true. Now. 307 00:18:10,759 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 3: I think they see the comedy side, and that's what 308 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:18,400 WWE wants him to keep portraying this this comedic person. 309 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:24,559 But Ron Killings was like the first African American to 310 00:18:24,599 --> 00:18:28,480 have that n w A title, true, and I don't 311 00:18:28,519 --> 00:18:32,119 think people know that. And so, you know, and I 312 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,440 thought he was going they were gonna let him be 313 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:36,920 Run Killings when he came out and cut his hair 314 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,119 and everything and said, you know, put some respect on 315 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:40,519 my name. 316 00:18:40,559 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 2: I'm Run Killings. I'm not a joke. 317 00:18:42,559 --> 00:18:47,079 Speaker 3: And all of a sudden they killed that angle because 318 00:18:47,079 --> 00:18:49,480 it sounded really like it was a shoot at first, 319 00:18:49,559 --> 00:18:51,400 and it may have been. 320 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, they have I don't think they have any plan 321 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:56,640 with what they're doing with him, which is a which 322 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,359 is a terrible shame because he's incredible, He's incredibly talented. 323 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 4: Yes, I just wanted to throw in I agree Ron 324 00:19:04,799 --> 00:19:09,400 Killings in TNA, like people are like, oh, truth is 325 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:14,279 so funny. Truth is so funny, and it's like truth 326 00:19:14,319 --> 00:19:19,680 can work, you know. So I used to watch the 327 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:24,759 TNA weekly pay per views every week when you had 328 00:19:24,759 --> 00:19:28,240 to run for nine to ninety nine, and he had 329 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:33,920 matches with AJ Styles and you tell people that and 330 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,599 they're like, okay, so what was it like a five 331 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:42,440 to seven minute match, And oh no, they were for 332 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,559 ten fifteen minutes in a one hour, two hour program 333 00:19:47,599 --> 00:19:48,039 and they. 334 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 5: Mayn't event it and they tore the grounds down. 335 00:19:52,279 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 4: So I think right now, I dare say, Ron aren't 336 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:03,519 truth has a very implicated legacy, and it's not his fault, right, 337 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,559 We'll just see the comedy guy, and they blew sight 338 00:20:08,759 --> 00:20:13,519 of the matches he had with guys like Jeff Jarrett, Raven, 339 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:20,519 AJ Stontails, Christopher Daniels. Near the end of it NA, Ron, 340 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:25,559 him and Christopher Daniels had a thirty minute iron Man 341 00:20:25,599 --> 00:20:29,359 match on pay per view that should have been a 342 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:30,720 top match that year. 343 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, Yeah. There's a lot to there's 344 00:20:35,799 --> 00:20:38,119 a lot to Ron killings that a lot of fans 345 00:20:38,559 --> 00:20:40,440 don't realize, and you know, and to be able to 346 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,119 still perform in the ring at what is he now 347 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,119 fifty three. I think that's pretty impressive too. But yeah, 348 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:50,960 he obviously takes care of himself, right, Yeah. 349 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 5: He deserves a lot better than what he's getting. 350 00:20:52,799 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: Oh, I agree, I absolutely agree, David. Are their plans 351 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,359 for a fourth edition of this? Because obviously over time, 352 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,039 you know, in theory, you know, you can keep adding 353 00:21:03,039 --> 00:21:05,960 people to this, right I mean, is do you have 354 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,720 plans for a fourth edition or I don't know if 355 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:10,960 you're thinking that far ahead. It's I mean, it's it's 356 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:12,279 a lot to do, I know. 357 00:21:12,279 --> 00:21:12,440 Speaker 4: But. 358 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, right right now, I don't because, like you were saying, 359 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,200 I mean, it's it's something that can keep going on 360 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:21,720 and on and unless it's. 361 00:21:21,519 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 2: Something really compelling. 362 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 3: At least in my thought right now, I thought the 363 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:32,160 only thing that could be added was the tag team champion, 364 00:21:32,279 --> 00:21:36,279 So I added those all black tag teams and I thought, okay, 365 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,720 that's that's kind of gonna put the punctuation on it. 366 00:21:39,799 --> 00:21:43,920 And but yeah, so no, I don't have any plans 367 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,400 right now for a fourth edition, but you never know. 368 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 1: Right right, by the way, so this is not this 369 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,039 is not your first book, or while it's a third edition, 370 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:55,440 but I mean you've you've written other books, right, can 371 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,319 you can you tell us too this a little bit 372 00:21:57,319 --> 00:21:59,440 because I'm curious to learn more about your background because, 373 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,519 as I said, you know, you're an author and journalist, 374 00:22:01,559 --> 00:22:03,559 You've you've done a lot of other things too. I 375 00:22:03,599 --> 00:22:06,880 was looking at your website and I'm curious about more 376 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:08,599 about your career in a broader sense. 377 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 3: Yes, well, I used to be an active reporter. I 378 00:22:17,519 --> 00:22:24,559 was a newspaper reporter and also a college radio news 379 00:22:24,599 --> 00:22:28,400 director when I was when I was actually in college, 380 00:22:28,759 --> 00:22:33,720 I was fortunate that my internship turned into a job. 381 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 2: Even before I had graduated. 382 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 3: My internship at the radio station in Columbia, South Carolina, 383 00:22:40,559 --> 00:22:45,400 uh turned into a job for me. And so for 384 00:22:45,519 --> 00:22:50,759 the last twenty years, I've been a journalism professor because 385 00:22:50,799 --> 00:22:53,880 you don't really, you didn't really make a lot of 386 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:58,160 money being a journalist until you get, you know, to 387 00:22:57,839 --> 00:23:02,720 the level of NBC National or ABC, you know, one 388 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,240 of the national networks, not really making a whole lot 389 00:23:06,279 --> 00:23:10,240 of money. And not that it's about money, because you know, 390 00:23:10,319 --> 00:23:12,599 you should do what you enjoy doing. 391 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 2: But yeah, so. 392 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:18,519 Speaker 3: I've been a college professor for the last twenty years. 393 00:23:18,599 --> 00:23:24,160 Speaker 2: I have a PhD in communication, So yeah, that's that's 394 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,680 that's sort of men in an overview. 395 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:29,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. 396 00:23:29,799 --> 00:23:33,079 Speaker 2: One of my books is Public Enemy number one. 397 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,839 Speaker 3: Public Enemy number one started as my master's thesis. 398 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 2: It was on the group Public Enemy and also wrote Yes. 399 00:23:44,759 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 3: Yes, that was a research study on a couple of 400 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,200 their music videos. 401 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,319 Speaker 1: Oh wow, that sounds like something actually. I think Eric 402 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,480 and I both would be interested in reading that. Very 403 00:23:57,559 --> 00:23:58,000 very cool. 404 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 6: Huh Yeah, guys Enemy fan Fight the Power jh yep 405 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,279 video directed by Spike Lee. 406 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 5: I'm a big Spike Lee fan as well. Yeah, okay, 407 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:13,839 films of Spike Lee. 408 00:24:14,599 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. When this show was on in afternoons and we 409 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,079 were doing a lot of politics. When I was an 410 00:24:19,079 --> 00:24:21,680 Afternoon Drive, I would Fight the Power was one of 411 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:26,640 my go tos. I I would play that often quite often. Absolutely. 412 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,240 Oh that's very cool, very interesting David. Wow. 413 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:35,039 Speaker 3: Yeah, and have you guys heard of Dolomite? Yes, oh, yes, 414 00:24:36,519 --> 00:24:39,880 the Annie Murphy movie on Netflix that came out I 415 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:41,160 think in twenty nineteen. 416 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 4: Love that movie, David, Before you get into that. When 417 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,079 Matt was on Afternoon Drive, I would do a segment 418 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:55,559 called classic film Reviews, and for in February we would 419 00:24:55,559 --> 00:25:00,519 do a black history segment where I covered African America films. 420 00:25:00,559 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 5: We actually covered Shaft. 421 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 4: And super Fly and that get did a lot of 422 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,119 conversation that I thought was very good. 423 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, there was because there was some disagreement, 424 00:25:14,319 --> 00:25:16,799 not between Eric and I or anything, but but it 425 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,079 was sort of externally there was some disagreement about whether 426 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,319 those were even appropriate choices. And yeah, it did. It 427 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,839 did spark a lot of conversation that there was very 428 00:25:24,839 --> 00:25:27,119 positive and constructive. I think it was. It was very good. 429 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,799 So now I'm curious, David, so what led you into 430 00:25:29,839 --> 00:25:32,039 being a pro wrestling fan? How did you become because 431 00:25:32,039 --> 00:25:33,880 you I assume since you were a kid, right, I 432 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:35,559 feel like most of us get hooked on this one. 433 00:25:35,599 --> 00:25:36,160 We're children. 434 00:25:37,519 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I grew up a fan. 435 00:25:40,279 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 3: I mean my family watched it, so it was always 436 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:44,240 in the household. 437 00:25:44,279 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 2: Mom, dad, grandmother, I. 438 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:50,319 Speaker 3: Mean, everybody watched professional wrestling. So yeah, it's a little 439 00:25:50,319 --> 00:25:52,079 lifelong thing for me. 440 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,279 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I got hooked when Saturday Nights Made Event 441 00:25:56,319 --> 00:26:00,519 premiered on NBC and I watched the first you know, 442 00:26:00,559 --> 00:26:02,799 I had seen wrestling before that. I was never particularly 443 00:26:02,839 --> 00:26:05,559 into it up until that point. Then I'd seen Saturday's 444 00:26:05,599 --> 00:26:07,920 main event and something about it hooked me. In fact, 445 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,359 I remember one of the matches. It was a squash match. 446 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,400 It was Junkyard Dog throwing this guy around. I have 447 00:26:13,559 --> 00:26:15,640 no recollection of who his opponent was, and I just 448 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:17,599 remember saying to my friend, well, this is interesting. He's 449 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,799 just beating the heck out of that guy. I think 450 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,359 the I think the big angle that night was the 451 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:28,000 Battle Royal, Hogan and Andre having their confrontation in the 452 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,799 Big Battle Royal. But but yeah, that was that was 453 00:26:30,799 --> 00:26:32,319 what hooked me. And then you know, I've I've been 454 00:26:32,319 --> 00:26:34,359 hooked on it ever since and now Eric and I 455 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,680 even do a podcast together about it called Tough Pumps. 456 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,440 Did I mean, did you ever, like when you started 457 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:42,920 your career in journalism, did you already have ideas about 458 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,160 writing writing books like this actually writing about pro wrestling. 459 00:26:47,079 --> 00:26:48,599 Speaker 2: No, not at all. 460 00:26:49,799 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 3: And like I said, this was really just kind of 461 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,599 trying to further my brother's legacy in this and and 462 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,680 you know this, this wasn't something that he was really 463 00:27:02,799 --> 00:27:04,920 into as well in terms of writing. 464 00:27:06,319 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 2: His books at the time was hip hop related. 465 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,039 Speaker 3: He wrote The United States Versus Hip Hop when they 466 00:27:15,079 --> 00:27:21,079 were looking at Public Enemy and Luke Two Live Crew and. 467 00:27:21,559 --> 00:27:24,119 Speaker 2: NWA and those guys, and there was. 468 00:27:26,319 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 3: Of course nobody confirmed or denied it, which is the 469 00:27:29,319 --> 00:27:33,480 FBI's favorite word. But that was you know that they 470 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,680 sent they allegedly sent a letter to them, a warning 471 00:27:37,759 --> 00:27:41,359 letter to the record labels about those groups. And so 472 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,200 that was a huge censorship thing, like wait a minute, 473 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,720 you can't, you can't do that. So that was the 474 00:27:46,799 --> 00:27:49,759 kind of stuff that my brother was writing about and. 475 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 2: He started he wrote that first. 476 00:27:53,039 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 3: Book in nineteen ninety nine. It came out in nineteen 477 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,640 ninety nine. He started working on it in nineteen ninety 478 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:04,960 eight because Bobo Brazil died earlier that year, and then 479 00:28:05,279 --> 00:28:09,559 when Jyd died in like July of that year, it 480 00:28:09,759 --> 00:28:12,599 touched him so much that he started doing the research 481 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:13,720 and wrote that book. 482 00:28:14,279 --> 00:28:17,880 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, so that led you to to carrying on 483 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,160 that legacy. That's that's remarkable. Now do you I mean, 484 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,839 how dialed in are you to the current product? Do 485 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:25,440 you do you watch every week? Do you keep up 486 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,319 with everything or you know, are you are you a 487 00:28:28,319 --> 00:28:31,000 somewhat lapsed fan like some people are, or what's what's 488 00:28:31,039 --> 00:28:33,559 your current level of engagement with wrestling? 489 00:28:35,319 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 2: I try to keep up with it as much as 490 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:38,440 I can. 491 00:28:39,559 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 3: I'm obviously not able to watch all of the shows, 492 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,200 especially with with with a W back out there now 493 00:28:47,319 --> 00:28:50,759 and you know, with having competition, but I do try 494 00:28:50,759 --> 00:28:52,599 to try to keep up as much as I can. 495 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's so much content now, I can't. You know, 496 00:28:56,799 --> 00:28:58,599 Jenny and I watch it every week, but we can't. 497 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:00,319 We can't keep up with all of it, and we don't. 498 00:29:00,359 --> 00:29:03,160 We don't even touch ae W unless something happens that 499 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,640 we're particularly interested in, you know, because I try to 500 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,440 keep up with everything online. But as far as what 501 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,759 we're actually watching, it's, yeah, it is. It's a lot. 502 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,039 It's a lot of content to keep up with. 503 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 5: So question for David. 504 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 4: Anytime I encounter a pro wrestling fan when they're new, 505 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,119 I like asking one question, So I hope you don't mind. 506 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:31,000 What is your earliest fondest memory a professional wrestling? 507 00:29:32,359 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: Good question. 508 00:29:34,079 --> 00:29:40,839 Speaker 3: I would have to say when I saw in person 509 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:47,319 rufus R Freight Train Jones wrestle. I always liked him 510 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,480 as a kid, and I got an opportunity. They came 511 00:29:50,599 --> 00:29:54,200 to a y m c A in my hometown and 512 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,880 I got the rare opportunity to see him wrestle and 513 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:58,440 and that was great for me and the. 514 00:30:00,759 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 2: He was wrestling the Great Kabuki. 515 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 3: Fans now may see the I can't think of the 516 00:30:09,599 --> 00:30:14,480 female's name now, the Japanese female now who spits uh 517 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:20,799 bas oscar? Yes, yes, that came from the Great Kabuki 518 00:30:20,839 --> 00:30:23,759 who used to spit that mist in the person's eyes. 519 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:28,079 And you know I saw them wrestle and that was 520 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,319 that was like my earliest memory. 521 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, oh, very good, very good, said the Great Kabuki. 522 00:30:36,039 --> 00:30:39,599 Because I hear so many times p wrestling fans say 523 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,480 the Great Muda when they talk about the Green mess. 524 00:30:45,119 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 5: Or to Jerry, and it's like and me. 525 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 4: I, I don't want to toot my own horn, I 526 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:57,759 am I feel like a pro wrestling historian. I always say, no, 527 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:02,319 it was the Great Kabuki that first did the Green 528 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:08,039 mess YEP and World Championship Wrestling in Mid South when 529 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,359 he did the when he did that, it wasn't it 530 00:31:12,519 --> 00:31:14,559 wasn't Great mood A. 531 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 5: Mooda stole it from Kabuki, right right right, thank you 532 00:31:20,599 --> 00:31:21,440 Great Kabuki. 533 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: Well, guys, this has been this has been wonderful. The 534 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,720 time does go quickly. We are beginning to approach the 535 00:31:30,759 --> 00:31:33,400 top of the hour. But David, I want to make 536 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,880 sure everyone knows again where's uh, where's the best place 537 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,119 to keep up with everything that you're doing. And of 538 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,400 course the book Black Gold Discover Pro Wrestling's Black World Champions, 539 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,319 the third edition which is currently available, where people can 540 00:31:46,319 --> 00:31:48,799 get that. Anything you want our listeners to know about 541 00:31:48,839 --> 00:31:51,359 how to find you and follow you and connect with you. 542 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:58,039 Speaker 3: Probably the best way is my website, which is David L. 543 00:31:58,279 --> 00:32:03,039 Shabaz and my name is there, so just just put 544 00:32:03,079 --> 00:32:06,079 an L in at s H A B A z 545 00:32:06,279 --> 00:32:11,079 z dot com because that's a central hub and you 546 00:32:11,119 --> 00:32:13,440 can find out about me. I have a little about 547 00:32:13,519 --> 00:32:17,480 section there and all of my titles as a book 548 00:32:17,559 --> 00:32:21,799 titles that is as well as if they want to 549 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,279 order it. You can order the book from the website 550 00:32:24,279 --> 00:32:27,640 and it has different online options, whether. 551 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,519 Speaker 2: You want Amazon, the Barnes and Noble, or. 552 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 3: My author's website where you can get it which is 553 00:32:36,279 --> 00:32:40,599 actually a little cheaper. I have a different distributor who 554 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:42,799 does that one, so it's it's it's actually a little 555 00:32:42,839 --> 00:32:46,319 cheaper than the other routes. But yeah, through my website 556 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:47,720 is probably the easiest way. 557 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 2: But it's it's. 558 00:32:48,279 --> 00:32:53,119 Speaker 3: Available uh online and in bookstores everywhere. 559 00:32:53,559 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: Oh, excellent, excellent. Well, thank you so much for joining 560 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,559 us this morning. We really appreciate it. David L. Schabaz, 561 00:32:59,599 --> 00:33:01,920 the book is great. I love the book, and uh 562 00:33:02,119 --> 00:33:04,440 and Eric, I appreciate you co hosting with me for 563 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:04,960 the segment. 564 00:33:06,559 --> 00:33:11,799 Speaker 4: I just feel like it was awesome to talk with 565 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:18,480 someone that, I mean, really understands the history of pro wrestling. 566 00:33:19,319 --> 00:33:23,359 Speaker 5: You can tell it's a labor a love, and I 567 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:23,720 love what. 568 00:33:24,279 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 4: I really like what you said about not about not 569 00:33:29,319 --> 00:33:34,400 being not going negative because pro wrestling. Matt and I 570 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,200 have said this on our podcast several times. In pro wrestling, 571 00:33:38,519 --> 00:33:43,519 I think we're even guilty of it. We focus on 572 00:33:43,599 --> 00:33:50,119 the negative because negative equals notorious and notorious people love 573 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:55,799 the notorious side of pro wrestling. But it isn't all bad, 574 00:33:57,119 --> 00:34:02,400 you know there, It isn't all awful there For every 575 00:34:03,359 --> 00:34:05,759 you know, I hate to bring them up, for every 576 00:34:05,839 --> 00:34:13,199 Chris Ben maaw there's twenty to thirty John Cena's and you. 577 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:20,559 It's magical, it's captivating, and the moments you have chosen 578 00:34:20,639 --> 00:34:24,519 to encapsulate, such as Ernie Ladd and. 579 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,519 Speaker 5: Champions like Booker t and. 580 00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:38,280 Speaker 4: Ron Killings and Jy are so important to professional wrestling, 581 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,920 and the way that you've chosen to do it with 582 00:34:42,559 --> 00:34:47,840 such positivity only helps better the industry that I love. 583 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 5: So thank you for that, David. 584 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,320 Speaker 3: Oh, no problem, thank you, I mean, And that's that 585 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,000 was the spirit that my brother started with. I mean 586 00:34:57,039 --> 00:34:59,719 when he when he wrote it, it was trying to 587 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:04,199 be celebratory of the wrestlers, and people were asking him 588 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:08,000 at the time, uh, questions about racism and that kind 589 00:35:08,039 --> 00:35:10,039 of thing, and he was like, this, this is this 590 00:35:10,079 --> 00:35:13,559 book is not about racism and wrestling. It's just trying 591 00:35:13,599 --> 00:35:17,159 to praise those wrestlers and give them their credit. 592 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 2: Because that's that was his initial drive. 593 00:35:20,039 --> 00:35:26,320 Speaker 3: He saw childhood heroes like Bobo Brazil and Jyd they 594 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,440 just died, you know, and and it's like there's very 595 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:33,760 little coverage, like nobody's saying anything about it, and so 596 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,039 that's what started him writing. It's always been in that 597 00:35:37,079 --> 00:35:39,840 spirit of positivity and just trying to shed light and 598 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:41,039 trying to enlighten people. 599 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,760 Speaker 1: Absolutely, that is excellent. 600 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 5: Negativity in anything, right, It's easy to it's. 601 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,280 Speaker 1: Easy to be easy. Yeah. 602 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 4: Yeah. The positivity of it is amazing and really, again, 603 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:05,280 just I've loved this entire interview. With you to hear 604 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,920 the the positive view and the fact that you brought 605 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,719 up Ernie Ladd being an African American booker, not just 606 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:18,960 in mid Now, but in general. It just adds to 607 00:36:19,039 --> 00:36:21,880 the mystique of Ernie Ladd. So, David, maybe if I 608 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,079 can put a little idea in your head Ernie and 609 00:36:25,199 --> 00:36:26,719 Ernie book. 610 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:28,760 Speaker 2: I'll consider it. 611 00:36:29,559 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 3: He definitely is one of those compelling figures. And you know, 612 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:41,000 and and he and several other guys around that period. 613 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,800 You know, they wrestled initially in the off season to 614 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,880 stay in shape for football. But Ernie said he made 615 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,400 more money in wrestling, so that's why he stopped playing football. 616 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I know that was that was interesting. 617 00:36:57,119 --> 00:36:59,239 That is in the book, and yeah, I thought that 618 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,639 was pretty interesting. Well, we gotta wrap up this segment, guys. 619 00:37:02,679 --> 00:37:05,599 But again, the book is called Pro Wrestling's Black World 620 00:37:05,639 --> 00:37:09,159 Champions third Edition. David El Shabaz, thank you so much 621 00:37:09,159 --> 00:37:11,440 for joining us, and we'll definitely talk again in the future. 622 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:12,960 This has been wonderful. Thank you so much. 623 00:37:13,679 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. 624 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,639 Speaker 1: You got it, you got it. And Eric, as always, 625 00:37:17,639 --> 00:37:18,440 thank you, my friend. 626 00:37:19,079 --> 00:37:21,199 Speaker 5: Yes, thank you, Matt Thank you, David. 627 00:37:21,679 --> 00:37:24,320 Speaker 1: All right, guys, thank you, and uh for those of 628 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,000 you listening live, stick around. We got plenty more to come. 629 00:37:27,039 --> 00:37:27,559 Don't go away.