WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.960 --> 00:00:03.439 Oh hey, it's your neighbor who doesn't realize that you 2 00:00:03.439 --> 00:00:07.639 can hear him talking to his plants, his beautiful, sweet, 3 00:00:07.719 --> 00:00:11.080 strong plants who are growing so fast. Ali Ward back 4 00:00:11.119 --> 00:00:13.279 with a full length or this was supposed to be 5 00:00:13.320 --> 00:00:15.960 a mini surprise to me and to you, it's a 6 00:00:15.960 --> 00:00:19.760 full lengther. First off, start with the phanatology encore about 7 00:00:19.800 --> 00:00:22.519 death and dying that we just posted last week. There's 8 00:00:22.519 --> 00:00:25.000 a link in the show notes because this guest is 9 00:00:25.120 --> 00:00:28.719 a life changer, she is a death changer, and that 10 00:00:28.960 --> 00:00:31.760 encore episode has all the info you need to start at, 11 00:00:31.800 --> 00:00:34.399 plus a bunch of twenty twenty two updates and other goodies. 12 00:00:34.719 --> 00:00:37.039 And also, just thank you everyone for the sweet notes 13 00:00:37.079 --> 00:00:40.920 and the sweet reviews. I always read them every single week, 14 00:00:41.079 --> 00:00:44.640 like this one from Stephanie G who wrote, Ali, You're 15 00:00:44.640 --> 00:00:47.200 not alone. After hearing you mentioned you lost your father 16 00:00:47.320 --> 00:00:49.200 very recently, I felt compelled to reach out and give 17 00:00:49.240 --> 00:00:51.320 you a long distance hug from here on the Mississippi 18 00:00:51.320 --> 00:00:53.560 Gulf Coast. I lost my father three years ago, and 19 00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:55.479 so I can understand the grief and sadness you must 20 00:00:55.479 --> 00:00:58.159 be experiencing. I'm so sorry for all the new moments 21 00:00:58.159 --> 00:01:00.359 you now live without being able to share with him. 22 00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:02.640 But please take heart, he will always be within you, 23 00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:04.840 and please keep that head up and trust that soon 24 00:01:04.920 --> 00:01:07.319 things will get easier. No matter how dark it seems, 25 00:01:07.519 --> 00:01:09.840 my heart is with you and you're not alone. Thank you, 26 00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:12.680 Stephanie G. So please, dear listener, know that you're not 27 00:01:12.760 --> 00:01:16.280 alone either. I'm in it, Stephanie G's in it. We're 28 00:01:16.319 --> 00:01:17.760 all going to be in it at one point, so 29 00:01:17.879 --> 00:01:21.560 you're never alone with this stuff. But okay, this follow 30 00:01:21.640 --> 00:01:25.680 up to thanatology a little background. After convincing Cole to 31 00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:28.599 meet me in a hotel at night on a week 32 00:01:28.719 --> 00:01:31.959 night too, in twenty seventeen, we parted ways, but we 33 00:01:32.079 --> 00:01:34.519 kept in touch and now she and her husband Victor, 34 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:38.560 and their two beagles live in LA. We see each 35 00:01:38.599 --> 00:01:42.560 other very often and it is wonderful. So it's also 36 00:01:42.599 --> 00:01:44.640 particularly wonderful if you're going through one of the hardest 37 00:01:44.640 --> 00:01:47.959 times of your life. So the day that my dad 38 00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:49.840 passed away, we happened to be back in LA for 39 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:51.879 a few days. We had been up north for months 40 00:01:51.920 --> 00:01:54.959 at his bedside, through brain surgeries, through hospice, and he 41 00:01:55.000 --> 00:01:57.400 seemed like he was getting a little stronger. His hospice 42 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:00.719 nurse said he might hang on for a few more months, 43 00:02:00.760 --> 00:02:02.079 and so we went back down to la for a 44 00:02:02.120 --> 00:02:04.560 few days to just reset and to gather some things. 45 00:02:04.959 --> 00:02:07.200 And we were about to have dinner with some really 46 00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:12.080 dear friends and officiate their marriage on paper for health 47 00:02:12.080 --> 00:02:13.080 insurance reasons. 48 00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:15.039 Jarrett was going to officiate over. 49 00:02:14.919 --> 00:02:17.199 Dinner, and then I got the call from my sister 50 00:02:17.479 --> 00:02:21.120 celeast So it was really surreal. It's a moment I 51 00:02:21.240 --> 00:02:24.520 will never be able to forget. I just started hysterically crying, 52 00:02:24.560 --> 00:02:27.199 as one does, and then we canceled the wedding dinner, 53 00:02:27.240 --> 00:02:30.520 as one does. They were very understanding. But earlier that day, 54 00:02:30.599 --> 00:02:32.960 Jared and I had rented a motorcycle to ride across 55 00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:35.759 town to the dinner because we thought maybe it'll be 56 00:02:35.800 --> 00:02:38.439 a little fun. So right after I found out that 57 00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:42.960 my dad passed, I figured he would love that vicariousness, 58 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:46.759 as he always used to say, So between fits of bawling, 59 00:02:46.919 --> 00:02:48.879 I got on the back of this motorcycle that we 60 00:02:48.919 --> 00:02:52.520 rented and we drove around Griffith Park as the sun 61 00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:56.639 started to set, just weeping into Jarret's back, and Cole 62 00:02:56.680 --> 00:02:57.639 and Victor came over. 63 00:02:58.280 --> 00:02:59.080 They brought dinner. 64 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:03.240 We ate outside as this guy turned orange and purple, 65 00:03:03.439 --> 00:03:05.560 and I immediately went to take a picture to send 66 00:03:05.560 --> 00:03:09.479 my dad, the first of many times that's happened since. 67 00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:12.400 But between his passing and his funeral, I rushed up 68 00:03:12.439 --> 00:03:14.960 north to see my family, helped the funeral planning and 69 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:16.919 all the business that one has to attend to, and 70 00:03:16.960 --> 00:03:18.560 then I came back down to LA for a couple 71 00:03:18.680 --> 00:03:22.080 days before the funeral and Cole and Victor and Jarrett 72 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:25.080 and I played some pickleball and got some hot dogs 73 00:03:25.199 --> 00:03:27.840 and some wine, and then we just pulled up an 74 00:03:28.039 --> 00:03:31.080 LA street corner to catch up since the last episode, 75 00:03:31.240 --> 00:03:33.680 So this was recorded on a street corner after my 76 00:03:33.759 --> 00:03:36.680 dad had passed away, but before the funeral, and it's 77 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:39.919 just an updated interview with Cole talking a lot about 78 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:43.360 grief and the process, what she's been up to. And 79 00:03:43.719 --> 00:03:47.039 after the break is a collection of tips that you 80 00:03:47.319 --> 00:03:50.280 and Cole and books have given me that I've used 81 00:03:50.319 --> 00:03:53.319 and that are really helping. So here is an update 82 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:58.080 with author, teacher, founder of the School of American Fantatology, 83 00:03:58.520 --> 00:04:23.079 dear friend and the anatologist cole In Perry. Colin Parry, 84 00:04:23.959 --> 00:04:27.319 let's see your levels testing. I know a little bit 85 00:04:27.399 --> 00:04:30.519 better how to use my own recording device. And yeah, 86 00:04:30.680 --> 00:04:34.199 the cords don't cost four dollars each. Okay, Colin Perry 87 00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:38.279 pronounce she her wonderful. 88 00:04:38.399 --> 00:04:38.759 Thank you. 89 00:04:38.839 --> 00:04:42.560 I'm Ali Ward. I host a podcast called Ologies Cole. 90 00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:43.319 Here we are. 91 00:04:44.439 --> 00:04:49.000 We're on a street corner in northeast Los Angeles where 92 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:49.560 you now live. 93 00:04:50.199 --> 00:04:51.360 Yes, it's my home. Now? 94 00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:52.360 When did you move? 95 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:58.160 I arrived March third and I found that I loved it. 96 00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:01.560 And now you live in LA Yes, like two or 97 00:05:01.600 --> 00:05:05.240 three miles away from me? Yes, five years, four and 98 00:05:05.240 --> 00:05:08.040 a half years after we recorded the initial episode in 99 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:10.920 a Hampton in. 100 00:05:09.759 --> 00:05:10.839 In Cincinnati, Ohio. 101 00:05:11.720 --> 00:05:15.120 Yeah, tell me what else has been going on with you? 102 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:18.839 Well, let's see since I first met you in twenty seventeen. 103 00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:21.680 Shortly there after, I got a fellowship the Curtis Gates 104 00:05:21.720 --> 00:05:24.839 Vloyd Fellowship through the Voyd Library, and I was researching 105 00:05:24.879 --> 00:05:28.920 where plants intersect with death, and then I end up 106 00:05:28.920 --> 00:05:33.240 writing some curriculum about pantatology for several colleges, and then 107 00:05:33.480 --> 00:05:36.120 the pandemic hit, and then I ended up starting a 108 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:39.399 school called the School of American Panatology, and I now 109 00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:42.680 have students in twenty one countries across twelve time zones 110 00:05:43.759 --> 00:05:48.040 that are all people from let's see, eighteen is the 111 00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:50.319 youngest and my oldest student is seventy eight. 112 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:51.079 Oh wow. 113 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:55.040 Just interested in death, dying, grief and loss globally, So 114 00:05:55.079 --> 00:05:59.519 it's like such a gift. And then I got a 115 00:05:59.560 --> 00:05:59.959 book deal. 116 00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:01.000 Hell yeah. 117 00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:03.199 And I'm trying to finish my. 118 00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:06.079 First books called A Guide to Your Grief and it's 119 00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:10.079 for ten to fourteen year olds. However, adult grieving brains 120 00:06:10.439 --> 00:06:11.879 this will be good for as well. 121 00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:15.160 She's also starting to write that book on shadow loss 122 00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:18.360 that I mentioned in the updated encore and she's wrapped 123 00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:20.519 by w ME in case you're a publisher and want 124 00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:22.279 to get in line to give her a book deal. 125 00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:25.759 And she just finished writing her first book, A Guide 126 00:06:25.800 --> 00:06:28.560 to Your Grief, via Kids Can Press, and it's not 127 00:06:28.639 --> 00:06:30.959 out yet, but I got a chance to peer review 128 00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:34.000 it and it is great. She literally just finished it 129 00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:36.079 a few days ago. So when can we get our 130 00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:37.759 grubby mits on it in a bookstore? 131 00:06:38.199 --> 00:06:39.759 I think next year or the year after. I don't know, 132 00:06:40.120 --> 00:06:44.120 I should know, but like I don't watch the Space. Yeah, 133 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:47.279 and then there is a show on Netflix called The 134 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:49.519 Future of that just came out and I'm in the 135 00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:53.199 episode called Life After Death and then I'm just living 136 00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:54.920 in LA. I'm just living in the LA life. Move 137 00:06:54.920 --> 00:06:59.680 from Kentucky to Los Angeles. It's quite a difference. 138 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:05.160 Upending your whole life for the better and playing a 139 00:07:05.199 --> 00:07:05.879 lot of pickleball. 140 00:07:06.199 --> 00:07:08.399 Yes, well, actually, you know you. I want to say this. 141 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:13.040 Your wedding was the really the actual catalyst that made 142 00:07:13.040 --> 00:07:15.319 this happen, because I had never been to La really 143 00:07:15.399 --> 00:07:18.680 before your wedding, and I had prejudices about it. I 144 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:23.560 envisioned just like this dirty concrete leaden like urban place, 145 00:07:23.959 --> 00:07:27.959 and it's it's just such a beautiful city. And so 146 00:07:28.120 --> 00:07:30.000 it was within a few weeks after we got home 147 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:32.319 from your wedding, we were like, oh, I think we 148 00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:34.959 need to move m and then less than a year 149 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:36.600 later we did it. 150 00:07:36.680 --> 00:07:38.720 So I remember you were like, can I call you? 151 00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:40.319 I have some news for you, and I was like, yeah, 152 00:07:40.360 --> 00:07:43.839 what's up? And this was the last August. You're like, 153 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:47.279 you know, Victor and I really reflected on our lives 154 00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:49.120 after your wedding, and I was like, if you fucking 155 00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:53.079 people get divorced, I will kill you both. Make you 156 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:54.319 hang out in the afterlife together. 157 00:07:54.680 --> 00:07:55.399 And you were like and. 158 00:07:55.319 --> 00:07:56.959 We've decided to move to la It was such a 159 00:07:57.000 --> 00:07:58.959 bait and switch of the best variety. I was like, 160 00:07:59.319 --> 00:08:01.920 I was like, oh my god, so do we ruin 161 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:05.720 something And I was like, no, and now, so you 162 00:08:06.519 --> 00:08:07.160 moved here. 163 00:08:08.920 --> 00:08:09.920 March third. 164 00:08:10.639 --> 00:08:14.439 I found out March eighth that my dad's cancer had 165 00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:19.639 spread to his lungs and later his brain. So you 166 00:08:19.720 --> 00:08:22.959 moved here just in time to see me through the 167 00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:24.720 worst mental health crisis of my life. 168 00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:27.600 So in a way, it was just great timing. Sometimes 169 00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:28.160 it works out. 170 00:08:28.639 --> 00:08:29.560 It was good timing for me. 171 00:08:29.720 --> 00:08:31.199 I don't know if it's great timing for you, but 172 00:08:31.319 --> 00:08:34.840 you've been here a ton for me. And I've mentioned 173 00:08:34.840 --> 00:08:36.559 this in the Secrets at the end of the episodes, 174 00:08:36.600 --> 00:08:41.080 but like you've sent me books, you have sent me 175 00:08:41.559 --> 00:08:42.360 daisy chains. 176 00:08:42.840 --> 00:08:44.320 So daisy chains. 177 00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:46.919 Are little beaded necklaces that she makes in honor of 178 00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:50.279 the daisy, which is a Thinno botanical symbol of grief, 179 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:53.720 and I've been wearing it for months. You've checked in 180 00:08:53.759 --> 00:08:58.679 with me, like, and I feel very very lucky that 181 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:01.200 I've had someone. I've had one of the best people 182 00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:03.639 on earth for this, like literally at my side, Like 183 00:09:03.679 --> 00:09:06.039 the day that my dad died, You came over with 184 00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:09.120 Victor came over with fried chicken. Jared explained to me 185 00:09:09.159 --> 00:09:11.440 later that you guys were talking about how grieving people 186 00:09:11.480 --> 00:09:12.840 need salt and fat, and I was. 187 00:09:12.840 --> 00:09:14.360 Like, how do they know that. 188 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:17.720 Listen, when you're grieving, your body is very depleted. 189 00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:21.960 Yeah, need salt. We ate fried chicken and watch the sunset. 190 00:09:22.639 --> 00:09:24.320 And I went to go take a picture to send 191 00:09:24.360 --> 00:09:27.200 it to my dad forgetting that he had died that day, 192 00:09:27.679 --> 00:09:31.759 which is apparently common. How common is that when you 193 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:34.399 lose someone to think of like, oh, I've got to 194 00:09:34.440 --> 00:09:36.799 tell them this, Like, oh, I've got to text them this. 195 00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:40.279 I don't think it necessarily ever completely goes away. Yeah, 196 00:09:40.279 --> 00:09:42.000 because you're going to continue to see stuff, and you're 197 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:43.480 going to continue to be like, oh my god, my dad, 198 00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:45.440 he would love to see this. You'll get better at 199 00:09:45.480 --> 00:09:48.279 being like he would love to see this, Right, But 200 00:09:49.080 --> 00:09:53.519 I mean, you never when someone dies, the relationship doesn't stop. 201 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:56.360 You're going to continue to have a relationship with your dad. 202 00:09:56.799 --> 00:09:59.759 What does that mean exactly? Because someone kind of warned me. 203 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:01.440 Are not warned me of that, but like in a 204 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:04.360 good way told me that the anticipatory grief can be 205 00:10:04.440 --> 00:10:07.639 worse than the grief. Grief yep, if it's prolonged illness, yes, 206 00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:11.240 and that your relationship will continue to change and evolve. 207 00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:14.159 And I'm only a week out, so I'm like, what 208 00:10:14.200 --> 00:10:15.039 the fuck does that mean? 209 00:10:15.279 --> 00:10:18.759 Yeah, So, if you want, like the name of like 210 00:10:18.759 --> 00:10:23.000 the scientific theory, it's called the continuing bonds theory. And 211 00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:28.159 then just colloquially, when when people say, like, your relationship continues, 212 00:10:28.679 --> 00:10:32.639 it's because you yourself, Ali, You're going to continue to 213 00:10:32.679 --> 00:10:36.240 develop and grow and have new experiences, and all of 214 00:10:36.279 --> 00:10:39.639 those new experiences you have will be informed to some degree, 215 00:10:40.039 --> 00:10:44.120 others more than others based off of your dad. 216 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:46.120 You will, like just. 217 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:50.279 Even thinking about hitting age milestones, like when your dad 218 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:53.759 turned sixty, you probably remember that. Yeah, one day you're 219 00:10:53.759 --> 00:10:57.720 going to turn sixty, fucking what, and you're going to 220 00:10:57.799 --> 00:11:01.240 remember when your dad turned sixty and you're going to 221 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:05.039 be approaching that milestone and your memory of him from 222 00:11:05.039 --> 00:11:07.559 the perspective of being the same age as him, which 223 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:09.759 you cannot do now. Yeah, So that's like a really 224 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:13.360 simple way of putting it. But also as time goes by, 225 00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:18.279 you're going to find more depth and meaning to a 226 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:21.240 lot of the experiences you've had with your dad, and 227 00:11:21.279 --> 00:11:23.279 that can be a wonderful joy, it can be a 228 00:11:23.279 --> 00:11:27.559 bittersweet joy, and it can sometimes those moments of discovery 229 00:11:28.759 --> 00:11:32.240 result in crying because it's overwhelming and it's beautiful. 230 00:11:33.519 --> 00:11:34.840 But that's kind of what people mean. 231 00:11:35.559 --> 00:11:37.440 And that's a really good question to ask people too, 232 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:40.000 because when you needed, it's really important to check in 233 00:11:40.039 --> 00:11:43.320 on your friends and to not be afraid to ask how. 234 00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:43.799 Is your grief? 235 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:46.279 I like to phrase it like, how is your grief today? 236 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:49.120 Instead of being like, you have a dead dad for 237 00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:49.440 a weekend? 238 00:11:49.559 --> 00:11:50.639 How do you mean? 239 00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:52.919 Let you say it in a nicer way. 240 00:11:53.679 --> 00:11:56.200 So, but maybe some people that's a better way to ask. 241 00:11:56.279 --> 00:11:59.039 Yeah, I have to say so many of you listeners 242 00:11:59.080 --> 00:12:02.840 and friends and famis have just been wonderfully supportive. But 243 00:12:03.759 --> 00:12:06.840 the funniest response I got to this just tremendous loss 244 00:12:06.840 --> 00:12:10.080 in my life was this text that just said heard 245 00:12:10.080 --> 00:12:13.799 your dad died, And it was just something about the 246 00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:16.519 use of the intero bang at the end of it. 247 00:12:16.519 --> 00:12:20.480 It's like, I heard your dad died, question mark, exclamation point, 248 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:25.879 just like so inappropriate and it made me laugh so hard. 249 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:29.480 And my friend for like thirty years totally did not 250 00:12:29.559 --> 00:12:32.720 intend that to be comedy, even though he's very funny, 251 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:34.039 but it was just so him to be. 252 00:12:34.039 --> 00:12:37.399 Like, heard your dad died and I just laughed so hard. 253 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:39.600 So I don't know, is there a stage of grief 254 00:12:39.639 --> 00:12:43.000 where things sucks so bad that it's almost funny? Oh? 255 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:45.879 Speaking of what about this stages? Agree? 256 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:49.799 Because it was Elizabeth Koopler Ross, Yes, right, who started 257 00:12:49.799 --> 00:12:50.440 that theory. 258 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:52.919 But from what I understand, it's not linear, like you. 259 00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:54.360 Go little one and then you get to two and 260 00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:56.639 then you get like, yeah, it's all over the place. Right. 261 00:12:56.639 --> 00:12:57.799 I'm so glad you asked about that. 262 00:12:57.919 --> 00:13:00.200 So I serve on the advisory council for the with 263 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:03.360 Koobler Ross Foundation, which is in multiple countries around the world. 264 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:07.639 So Elizabeth Kopler Ross was she was like the. 265 00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:12.240 Original American phanatologist, although she was Swiss. Her Stages of 266 00:13:12.639 --> 00:13:16.159 dying theory, she actually said herself that it was written 267 00:13:16.279 --> 00:13:20.159 about people who were dying, the dying and their experience 268 00:13:20.200 --> 00:13:24.799 as they coped with that. It was not written about grievers, 269 00:13:25.159 --> 00:13:26.799 you know, people who are going to continue to live. 270 00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:31.759 And it's it's the most commonly like missited kind of theory. 271 00:13:31.960 --> 00:13:33.320 And I okay, let me tell you. 272 00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:36.159 My One of my worst sides comes out when I 273 00:13:36.159 --> 00:13:39.919 see people post on Instagram like the Stages of Grief 274 00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:42.240 by Elizabeth Coopler Ross or a joke, and I'm. 275 00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:44.639 Like, no, she didn't say that. 276 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:46.600 They're not linear. 277 00:13:47.240 --> 00:13:51.320 These five things happened, and like, I just it's that's 278 00:13:51.320 --> 00:13:53.919 when I have to like put the phone down. I'm like, 279 00:13:54.039 --> 00:13:58.720 do not be this person that is like commenting on 280 00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:02.080 Rando's But yeah, but so those heard like that theory, 281 00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:05.240 the five stages. You encounter all of those, and they're 282 00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:08.480 not linear. They're not one after the other, which you've 283 00:14:08.519 --> 00:14:11.039 probably experienced that. Like you probably have had some days 284 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:12.960 where you've been like, oh, yeah, this is acceptance, but 285 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:16.399 then the next day you're like, there has been nothing accepted. 286 00:14:16.600 --> 00:14:20.279 Yeah, there has been anger, there has been sadness. And 287 00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:23.039 I did like it better when I thought they were 288 00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:25.200 stacked up and I just knock them down, you know, 289 00:14:25.519 --> 00:14:31.080 like sweet. But knowing that they'll just erupt like in 290 00:14:31.159 --> 00:14:37.000 fissures of just hot lava of not great emotions is terrifying. 291 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:41.559 And you know, you've given me so much advice going 292 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:44.480 through this that I cannot imagine not having gotten. Is 293 00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:48.279 there anything that is like a kit of advice you 294 00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:51.080 would want to give people to be better prepared for 295 00:14:51.159 --> 00:14:55.080 when the death tsunami hits. 296 00:14:55.600 --> 00:14:55.879 Yeah. 297 00:14:56.919 --> 00:14:59.000 So I think the first thing I always like to 298 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:01.240 tell people, and I'm say it because I mean it, 299 00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:04.960 is that you have everything that you need inside of you. 300 00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:05.440 You have it. 301 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:12.879 Humans have been saying goodbye to loved ones since day one. 302 00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:15.799 I mean this is to some extent built into all 303 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:19.240 of us. Sometimes when we get the news that someone 304 00:15:19.240 --> 00:15:21.000 we love is going to die, or that we ourselves 305 00:15:21.039 --> 00:15:23.399 are going to die, we can sometimes react by being like, 306 00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:25.679 I'm going to educate my way out of this, out 307 00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:27.639 of the feelings. I'm going to read every book and 308 00:15:27.679 --> 00:15:31.879 do all this. And it's important to have the experience. 309 00:15:32.600 --> 00:15:35.360 There's experience in education. You got to read some things, 310 00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:36.840 you got to learn some things, but you also have 311 00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:41.000 to experience it. And that's really important too. And while 312 00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:45.240 loss is one of the most difficult things to being 313 00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:48.039 a human, it's also one of the most important things 314 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:54.080 to really experience. After a loss, a flourish always follows 315 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:57.480 a falter, and so many times when we lose someone 316 00:15:57.759 --> 00:15:59.759 or when you experience a shadow loss, which is the 317 00:15:59.759 --> 00:16:03.360 death of something not someone, we falter in life, like 318 00:16:03.639 --> 00:16:06.000 you miss deadlines, you have to cancel stuff, you're not 319 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:07.279 able to nurture friendships. 320 00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:09.159 You just feel very ripped out of your. 321 00:16:09.080 --> 00:16:10.879 Own life and like you don't even have a say, 322 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:15.159 and so we falter and we can. It's normal to 323 00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:18.720 feel really worried about how am I going to get 324 00:16:18.759 --> 00:16:21.799 back into my life? Like stuff is gone, I've missed opportunities. 325 00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:26.440 But a flourish always follows a falter. It just takes time, 326 00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:30.200 m h. And that is a like it is a 327 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:33.679 human process, because that's another thing when you're going through 328 00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:35.519 this is like there are days where you're just like, 329 00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:37.360 is it ever going to get better? 330 00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:38.440 Am I? 331 00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:40.759 Am I going to really get out of this? Am 332 00:16:40.759 --> 00:16:42.519 I going to have a day where I don't think 333 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:45.559 about it? Those are those are rough? 334 00:16:46.279 --> 00:16:48.320 And there are days when I'm like or moments or 335 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:51.039 hours or whatever where I'm like, I'm doing okay, yep, 336 00:16:51.080 --> 00:16:54.000 I'm doing surprisingly okay. Like for example, right now, I'm 337 00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:55.919 not crying. Yeah, that's amazing. 338 00:16:56.120 --> 00:16:56.519 I'm not. 339 00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:01.840 You know, picturing the most terrible moments of hospice, you know, 340 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:04.200 and I'm like, is this okay? 341 00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:04.880 Then I'm okay? 342 00:17:05.599 --> 00:17:08.839 Is this okay? Denial or numbness or is this acceptance? 343 00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:13.599 If I'm okay, is that a dishonor to the person 344 00:17:13.640 --> 00:17:16.759 I loved so much? If I I'm doing all right, 345 00:17:16.839 --> 00:17:19.039 if I'm handling it okay. And also I'm like, if 346 00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:21.319 I'm handling it okay today, does that mean tomorrow it's 347 00:17:21.319 --> 00:17:24.480 gonna be a shit show and I'm gonna break down 348 00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:27.599 sobbing and want to throw my phone out the window 349 00:17:27.640 --> 00:17:28.359 of a moving car. 350 00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:34.720 You know, this is a great segue to the second mode, 351 00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:39.640 like misrepresented, miss said, mis explained aspect of grief. So 352 00:17:39.799 --> 00:17:43.880 grief is not an emotion. What grief is that No, 353 00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:49.279 you cannot feel grief. You are grieving. Grieving is a 354 00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:53.160 response to loss, okay. And that response is made of 355 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:57.559 symptoms in six different categories, okay, And everybody favors certain 356 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:00.440 categories more than others, and then every time you experience 357 00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:04.480 a loss, you will favor those categories differently. And those 358 00:18:04.519 --> 00:18:14.599 categories are spiritual, social, physical, cognitive, behavioral. And I can't 359 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:16.599 think about it. Hold on, this isn't my book that 360 00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:17.880 I just wrote. 361 00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:18.880 So it is like cited. 362 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:20.279 This is where sides come in. 363 00:18:20.440 --> 00:18:22.440 I look this up in the review copy of her 364 00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:24.920 book that I got, and she writes, grief is not 365 00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:28.680 a feeling, it's a process. The symptoms of grief response 366 00:18:28.759 --> 00:18:35.279 can be grouped into six categories cognitive, behavioral, emotional, physical, social, 367 00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:41.519 and spiritual. So we were missing emotional, just so hilariously 368 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:43.079 hidden in plain sight of course. 369 00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:48.480 Emotional anyway, so like physical symptoms dry lips that you 370 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:55.119 just cannot manage or guest of yes, that could be 371 00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:56.279 a physical manifestation. 372 00:18:56.400 --> 00:19:00.720 I've been asking this poor man for lipbomb hourly and 373 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:02.519 he's like, I don't have any of my fans back. 374 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:08.000 Also bloating and like just abdominal stuff, and it's totally 375 00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:11.720 possible for this is why some people just don't cry. 376 00:19:12.039 --> 00:19:13.599 And this is also a source of a lot of 377 00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:16.920 family conflict because I've seen siblings where two of the 378 00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:18.799 three siblings are crying and one is not, and the 379 00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:21.359 other two siblings gang up on the sibling that's not crying. 380 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:23.599 They're like, didn't you love mom? Like why are you 381 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:26.480 not crying? Because not all of us, Oh, emotional, that's 382 00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:31.200 the other category there we go, so emotional. Not everybody 383 00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:34.200 is emotional in their grief response. Sometimes people are more 384 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:38.279 behavioral or cognitive, like forgetting things or like we would 385 00:19:38.279 --> 00:19:41.839 just played pickleball and I mean, you could have missed 386 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:44.759 a shot. Maybe it's because of all alterations in your 387 00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:45.920 cognitive state right now. 388 00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:48.400 Sure, because you're freaking grief. 389 00:19:48.279 --> 00:19:49.000 Date last time. 390 00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:53.000 But yeah, so that's what our grief actually is. And 391 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:56.480 I think it can be really helpful to know that 392 00:19:56.559 --> 00:20:02.119 it's not just an emotion. It's like a whole body experience. 393 00:20:02.279 --> 00:20:04.599 And that's why it can be really overwhelming to go 394 00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:06.920 through because like everything can be affected. 395 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:08.119 But that's normal. 396 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:10.559 It's a response to loss, and it is as unique 397 00:20:10.599 --> 00:20:13.400 as your own thumb print. And you'll never have the 398 00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:15.599 same grief like in the future when you lose people, 399 00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:18.759 it will not probably look exactly like how it is 400 00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:21.640 today because you'll be a different person in the future. 401 00:20:21.799 --> 00:20:25.839