Speaker 1: Oh hey, it's your neighbor who doesn't realize that you
Speaker 1: can hear him talking to his plants, his beautiful, sweet,
Speaker 1: strong plants who are growing so fast. Ali Ward back
Speaker 1: with a full length or this was supposed to be
Speaker 1: a mini surprise to me and to you, it's a
Speaker 1: full lengther. First off, start with the phanatology encore about
Speaker 1: death and dying that we just posted last week. There's
Speaker 1: a link in the show notes because this guest is
Speaker 1: a life changer, she is a death changer, and that
Speaker 1: encore episode has all the info you need to start at,
Speaker 1: plus a bunch of twenty twenty two updates and other goodies.
Speaker 1: And also, just thank you everyone for the sweet notes
Speaker 1: and the sweet reviews. I always read them every single week,
Speaker 1: like this one from Stephanie G who wrote, Ali, You're
Speaker 1: not alone. After hearing you mentioned you lost your father
Speaker 1: very recently, I felt compelled to reach out and give
Speaker 1: you a long distance hug from here on the Mississippi
Speaker 1: Gulf Coast. I lost my father three years ago, and
Speaker 1: so I can understand the grief and sadness you must
Speaker 1: be experiencing. I'm so sorry for all the new moments
Speaker 1: you now live without being able to share with him.
Speaker 1: But please take heart, he will always be within you,
Speaker 1: and please keep that head up and trust that soon
Speaker 1: things will get easier. No matter how dark it seems,
Speaker 1: my heart is with you and you're not alone. Thank you,
Speaker 1: Stephanie G. So please, dear listener, know that you're not
Speaker 1: alone either. I'm in it, Stephanie G's in it. We're
Speaker 1: all going to be in it at one point, so
Speaker 1: you're never alone with this stuff. But okay, this follow
Speaker 1: up to thanatology a little background. After convincing Cole to
Speaker 1: meet me in a hotel at night on a week
Speaker 1: night too, in twenty seventeen, we parted ways, but we
Speaker 1: kept in touch and now she and her husband Victor,
Speaker 1: and their two beagles live in LA. We see each
Speaker 1: other very often and it is wonderful. So it's also
Speaker 1: particularly wonderful if you're going through one of the hardest
Speaker 1: times of your life. So the day that my dad
Speaker 1: passed away, we happened to be back in LA for
Speaker 1: a few days. We had been up north for months
Speaker 1: at his bedside, through brain surgeries, through hospice, and he
Speaker 1: seemed like he was getting a little stronger. His hospice
Speaker 1: nurse said he might hang on for a few more months,
Speaker 1: and so we went back down to la for a
Speaker 1: few days to just reset and to gather some things.
Speaker 1: And we were about to have dinner with some really
Speaker 1: dear friends and officiate their marriage on paper for health
Speaker 1: insurance reasons.
Speaker 2: Jarrett was going to officiate over.
Speaker 1: Dinner, and then I got the call from my sister
Speaker 1: celeast So it was really surreal. It's a moment I
Speaker 1: will never be able to forget. I just started hysterically crying,
Speaker 1: as one does, and then we canceled the wedding dinner,
Speaker 1: as one does. They were very understanding. But earlier that day,
Speaker 1: Jared and I had rented a motorcycle to ride across
Speaker 1: town to the dinner because we thought maybe it'll be
Speaker 1: a little fun. So right after I found out that
Speaker 1: my dad passed, I figured he would love that vicariousness,
Speaker 1: as he always used to say, So between fits of bawling,
Speaker 1: I got on the back of this motorcycle that we
Speaker 1: rented and we drove around Griffith Park as the sun
Speaker 1: started to set, just weeping into Jarret's back, and Cole
Speaker 1: and Victor came over.
Speaker 2: They brought dinner.
Speaker 1: We ate outside as this guy turned orange and purple,
Speaker 1: and I immediately went to take a picture to send
Speaker 1: my dad, the first of many times that's happened since.
Speaker 1: But between his passing and his funeral, I rushed up
Speaker 1: north to see my family, helped the funeral planning and
Speaker 1: all the business that one has to attend to, and
Speaker 1: then I came back down to LA for a couple
Speaker 1: days before the funeral and Cole and Victor and Jarrett
Speaker 1: and I played some pickleball and got some hot dogs
Speaker 1: and some wine, and then we just pulled up an
Speaker 1: LA street corner to catch up since the last episode,
Speaker 1: So this was recorded on a street corner after my
Speaker 1: dad had passed away, but before the funeral, and it's
Speaker 1: just an updated interview with Cole talking a lot about
Speaker 1: grief and the process, what she's been up to. And
Speaker 1: after the break is a collection of tips that you
Speaker 1: and Cole and books have given me that I've used
Speaker 1: and that are really helping. So here is an update
Speaker 1: with author, teacher, founder of the School of American Fantatology,
Speaker 1: dear friend and the anatologist cole In Perry. Colin Parry,
Speaker 1: let's see your levels testing. I know a little bit
Speaker 1: better how to use my own recording device. And yeah,
Speaker 1: the cords don't cost four dollars each. Okay, Colin Perry
Speaker 1: pronounce she her wonderful.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 2: I'm Ali Ward. I host a podcast called Ologies Cole.
Speaker 2: Here we are.
Speaker 1: We're on a street corner in northeast Los Angeles where
Speaker 1: you now live.
Speaker 3: Yes, it's my home. Now?
Speaker 2: When did you move?
Speaker 4: I arrived March third and I found that I loved it.
Speaker 1: And now you live in LA Yes, like two or
Speaker 1: three miles away from me? Yes, five years, four and
Speaker 1: a half years after we recorded the initial episode in
Speaker 1: a Hampton in.
Speaker 3: In Cincinnati, Ohio.
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell me what else has been going on with you?
Speaker 4: Well, let's see since I first met you in twenty seventeen.
Speaker 4: Shortly there after, I got a fellowship the Curtis Gates
Speaker 4: Vloyd Fellowship through the Voyd Library, and I was researching
Speaker 4: where plants intersect with death, and then I end up
Speaker 4: writing some curriculum about pantatology for several colleges, and then
Speaker 4: the pandemic hit, and then I ended up starting a
Speaker 4: school called the School of American Panatology, and I now
Speaker 4: have students in twenty one countries across twelve time zones
Speaker 4: that are all people from let's see, eighteen is the
Speaker 4: youngest and my oldest student is seventy eight.
Speaker 2: Oh wow.
Speaker 4: Just interested in death, dying, grief and loss globally, So
Speaker 4: it's like such a gift. And then I got a
Speaker 4: book deal.
Speaker 2: Hell yeah.
Speaker 3: And I'm trying to finish my.
Speaker 4: First books called A Guide to Your Grief and it's
Speaker 4: for ten to fourteen year olds. However, adult grieving brains
Speaker 4: this will be good for as well.
Speaker 1: She's also starting to write that book on shadow loss
Speaker 1: that I mentioned in the updated encore and she's wrapped
Speaker 1: by w ME in case you're a publisher and want
Speaker 1: to get in line to give her a book deal.
Speaker 1: And she just finished writing her first book, A Guide
Speaker 1: to Your Grief, via Kids Can Press, and it's not
Speaker 1: out yet, but I got a chance to peer review
Speaker 1: it and it is great. She literally just finished it
Speaker 1: a few days ago. So when can we get our
Speaker 1: grubby mits on it in a bookstore?
Speaker 4: I think next year or the year after. I don't know,
Speaker 4: I should know, but like I don't watch the Space. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and then there is a show on Netflix called The
Speaker 4: Future of that just came out and I'm in the
Speaker 4: episode called Life After Death and then I'm just living
Speaker 4: in LA. I'm just living in the LA life. Move
Speaker 4: from Kentucky to Los Angeles. It's quite a difference.
Speaker 1: Upending your whole life for the better and playing a
Speaker 1: lot of pickleball.
Speaker 4: Yes, well, actually, you know you. I want to say this.
Speaker 4: Your wedding was the really the actual catalyst that made
Speaker 4: this happen, because I had never been to La really
Speaker 4: before your wedding, and I had prejudices about it. I
Speaker 4: envisioned just like this dirty concrete leaden like urban place,
Speaker 4: and it's it's just such a beautiful city. And so
Speaker 4: it was within a few weeks after we got home
Speaker 4: from your wedding, we were like, oh, I think we
Speaker 4: need to move m and then less than a year
Speaker 4: later we did it.
Speaker 1: So I remember you were like, can I call you?
Speaker 1: I have some news for you, and I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: what's up? And this was the last August. You're like,
Speaker 1: you know, Victor and I really reflected on our lives
Speaker 1: after your wedding, and I was like, if you fucking
Speaker 1: people get divorced, I will kill you both. Make you
Speaker 1: hang out in the afterlife together.
Speaker 2: And you were like and.
Speaker 1: We've decided to move to la It was such a
Speaker 1: bait and switch of the best variety. I was like,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, so do we ruin
Speaker 1: something And I was like, no, and now, so you
Speaker 1: moved here.
Speaker 2: March third.
Speaker 1: I found out March eighth that my dad's cancer had
Speaker 1: spread to his lungs and later his brain. So you
Speaker 1: moved here just in time to see me through the
Speaker 1: worst mental health crisis of my life.
Speaker 4: So in a way, it was just great timing. Sometimes
Speaker 4: it works out.
Speaker 2: It was good timing for me.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's great timing for you, but
Speaker 1: you've been here a ton for me. And I've mentioned
Speaker 1: this in the Secrets at the end of the episodes,
Speaker 1: but like you've sent me books, you have sent me
Speaker 1: daisy chains.
Speaker 2: So daisy chains.
Speaker 1: Are little beaded necklaces that she makes in honor of
Speaker 1: the daisy, which is a Thinno botanical symbol of grief,
Speaker 1: and I've been wearing it for months. You've checked in
Speaker 1: with me, like, and I feel very very lucky that
Speaker 1: I've had someone. I've had one of the best people
Speaker 1: on earth for this, like literally at my side, Like
Speaker 1: the day that my dad died, You came over with
Speaker 1: Victor came over with fried chicken. Jared explained to me
Speaker 1: later that you guys were talking about how grieving people
Speaker 1: need salt and fat, and I was.
Speaker 2: Like, how do they know that.
Speaker 4: Listen, when you're grieving, your body is very depleted.
Speaker 1: Yeah, need salt. We ate fried chicken and watch the sunset.
Speaker 1: And I went to go take a picture to send
Speaker 1: it to my dad forgetting that he had died that day,
Speaker 1: which is apparently common. How common is that when you
Speaker 1: lose someone to think of like, oh, I've got to
Speaker 1: tell them this, Like, oh, I've got to text them this.
Speaker 4: I don't think it necessarily ever completely goes away. Yeah,
Speaker 4: because you're going to continue to see stuff, and you're
Speaker 4: going to continue to be like, oh my god, my dad,
Speaker 4: he would love to see this. You'll get better at
Speaker 4: being like he would love to see this, Right, But
Speaker 4: I mean, you never when someone dies, the relationship doesn't stop.
Speaker 4: You're going to continue to have a relationship with your dad.
Speaker 2: What does that mean exactly? Because someone kind of warned me.
Speaker 1: Are not warned me of that, but like in a
Speaker 1: good way told me that the anticipatory grief can be
Speaker 1: worse than the grief. Grief yep, if it's prolonged illness, yes,
Speaker 1: and that your relationship will continue to change and evolve.
Speaker 1: And I'm only a week out, so I'm like, what
Speaker 1: the fuck does that mean?
Speaker 4: Yeah, So, if you want, like the name of like
Speaker 4: the scientific theory, it's called the continuing bonds theory. And
Speaker 4: then just colloquially, when when people say, like, your relationship continues,
Speaker 4: it's because you yourself, Ali, You're going to continue to
Speaker 4: develop and grow and have new experiences, and all of
Speaker 4: those new experiences you have will be informed to some degree,
Speaker 4: others more than others based off of your dad.
Speaker 3: You will, like just.
Speaker 4: Even thinking about hitting age milestones, like when your dad
Speaker 4: turned sixty, you probably remember that. Yeah, one day you're
Speaker 4: going to turn sixty, fucking what, and you're going to
Speaker 4: remember when your dad turned sixty and you're going to
Speaker 4: be approaching that milestone and your memory of him from
Speaker 4: the perspective of being the same age as him, which
Speaker 4: you cannot do now. Yeah, So that's like a really
Speaker 4: simple way of putting it. But also as time goes by,
Speaker 4: you're going to find more depth and meaning to a
Speaker 4: lot of the experiences you've had with your dad, and
Speaker 4: that can be a wonderful joy, it can be a
Speaker 4: bittersweet joy, and it can sometimes those moments of discovery
Speaker 4: result in crying because it's overwhelming and it's beautiful.
Speaker 3: But that's kind of what people mean.
Speaker 4: And that's a really good question to ask people too,
Speaker 4: because when you needed, it's really important to check in
Speaker 4: on your friends and to not be afraid to ask how.
Speaker 3: Is your grief?
Speaker 4: I like to phrase it like, how is your grief today?
Speaker 4: Instead of being like, you have a dead dad for
Speaker 4: a weekend?
Speaker 2: How do you mean?
Speaker 4: Let you say it in a nicer way.
Speaker 3: So, but maybe some people that's a better way to ask.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have to say so many of you listeners
Speaker 1: and friends and famis have just been wonderfully supportive. But
Speaker 1: the funniest response I got to this just tremendous loss
Speaker 1: in my life was this text that just said heard
Speaker 1: your dad died, And it was just something about the
Speaker 1: use of the intero bang at the end of it.
Speaker 1: It's like, I heard your dad died, question mark, exclamation point,
Speaker 1: just like so inappropriate and it made me laugh so hard.
Speaker 1: And my friend for like thirty years totally did not
Speaker 1: intend that to be comedy, even though he's very funny,
Speaker 1: but it was just so him to be.
Speaker 2: Like, heard your dad died and I just laughed so hard.
Speaker 1: So I don't know, is there a stage of grief
Speaker 1: where things sucks so bad that it's almost funny? Oh?
Speaker 2: Speaking of what about this stages? Agree?
Speaker 1: Because it was Elizabeth Koopler Ross, Yes, right, who started
Speaker 1: that theory.
Speaker 2: But from what I understand, it's not linear, like you.
Speaker 1: Go little one and then you get to two and
Speaker 1: then you get like, yeah, it's all over the place. Right.
Speaker 3: I'm so glad you asked about that.
Speaker 4: So I serve on the advisory council for the with
Speaker 4: Koobler Ross Foundation, which is in multiple countries around the world.
Speaker 3: So Elizabeth Kopler Ross was she was like the.
Speaker 4: Original American phanatologist, although she was Swiss. Her Stages of
Speaker 4: dying theory, she actually said herself that it was written
Speaker 4: about people who were dying, the dying and their experience
Speaker 4: as they coped with that. It was not written about grievers,
Speaker 4: you know, people who are going to continue to live.
Speaker 4: And it's it's the most commonly like missited kind of theory.
Speaker 3: And I okay, let me tell you.
Speaker 4: My One of my worst sides comes out when I
Speaker 4: see people post on Instagram like the Stages of Grief
Speaker 4: by Elizabeth Coopler Ross or a joke, and I'm.
Speaker 2: Like, no, she didn't say that.
Speaker 3: They're not linear.
Speaker 4: These five things happened, and like, I just it's that's
Speaker 4: when I have to like put the phone down. I'm like,
Speaker 4: do not be this person that is like commenting on
Speaker 4: Rando's But yeah, but so those heard like that theory,
Speaker 4: the five stages. You encounter all of those, and they're
Speaker 4: not linear. They're not one after the other, which you've
Speaker 4: probably experienced that. Like you probably have had some days
Speaker 4: where you've been like, oh, yeah, this is acceptance, but
Speaker 4: then the next day you're like, there has been nothing accepted.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there has been anger, there has been sadness. And
Speaker 1: I did like it better when I thought they were
Speaker 1: stacked up and I just knock them down, you know,
Speaker 1: like sweet. But knowing that they'll just erupt like in
Speaker 1: fissures of just hot lava of not great emotions is terrifying.
Speaker 1: And you know, you've given me so much advice going
Speaker 1: through this that I cannot imagine not having gotten. Is
Speaker 1: there anything that is like a kit of advice you
Speaker 1: would want to give people to be better prepared for
Speaker 1: when the death tsunami hits.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So I think the first thing I always like to
Speaker 4: tell people, and I'm say it because I mean it,
Speaker 4: is that you have everything that you need inside of you.
Speaker 3: You have it.
Speaker 4: Humans have been saying goodbye to loved ones since day one.
Speaker 4: I mean this is to some extent built into all
Speaker 4: of us. Sometimes when we get the news that someone
Speaker 4: we love is going to die, or that we ourselves
Speaker 4: are going to die, we can sometimes react by being like,
Speaker 4: I'm going to educate my way out of this, out
Speaker 4: of the feelings. I'm going to read every book and
Speaker 4: do all this. And it's important to have the experience.
Speaker 4: There's experience in education. You got to read some things,
Speaker 4: you got to learn some things, but you also have
Speaker 4: to experience it. And that's really important too. And while
Speaker 4: loss is one of the most difficult things to being
Speaker 4: a human, it's also one of the most important things
Speaker 4: to really experience. After a loss, a flourish always follows
Speaker 4: a falter, and so many times when we lose someone
Speaker 4: or when you experience a shadow loss, which is the
Speaker 4: death of something not someone, we falter in life, like
Speaker 4: you miss deadlines, you have to cancel stuff, you're not
Speaker 4: able to nurture friendships.
Speaker 3: You just feel very ripped out of your.
Speaker 4: Own life and like you don't even have a say,
Speaker 4: and so we falter and we can. It's normal to
Speaker 4: feel really worried about how am I going to get
Speaker 4: back into my life? Like stuff is gone, I've missed opportunities.
Speaker 4: But a flourish always follows a falter. It just takes time,
Speaker 4: m h. And that is a like it is a
Speaker 4: human process, because that's another thing when you're going through
Speaker 4: this is like there are days where you're just like,
Speaker 4: is it ever going to get better?
Speaker 3: Am I?
Speaker 4: Am I going to really get out of this? Am
Speaker 4: I going to have a day where I don't think
Speaker 4: about it? Those are those are rough?
Speaker 1: And there are days when I'm like or moments or
Speaker 1: hours or whatever where I'm like, I'm doing okay, yep,
Speaker 1: I'm doing surprisingly okay. Like for example, right now, I'm
Speaker 1: not crying. Yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker 2: I'm not.
Speaker 1: You know, picturing the most terrible moments of hospice, you know,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, is this okay?
Speaker 2: Then I'm okay?
Speaker 1: Is this okay? Denial or numbness or is this acceptance?
Speaker 1: If I'm okay, is that a dishonor to the person
Speaker 1: I loved so much? If I I'm doing all right,
Speaker 1: if I'm handling it okay. And also I'm like, if
Speaker 1: I'm handling it okay today, does that mean tomorrow it's
Speaker 1: gonna be a shit show and I'm gonna break down
Speaker 1: sobbing and want to throw my phone out the window
Speaker 1: of a moving car.
Speaker 4: You know, this is a great segue to the second mode,
Speaker 4: like misrepresented, miss said, mis explained aspect of grief. So
Speaker 4: grief is not an emotion. What grief is that No,
Speaker 4: you cannot feel grief. You are grieving. Grieving is a
Speaker 4: response to loss, okay. And that response is made of
Speaker 4: symptoms in six different categories, okay, And everybody favors certain
Speaker 4: categories more than others, and then every time you experience
Speaker 4: a loss, you will favor those categories differently. And those
Speaker 4: categories are spiritual, social, physical, cognitive, behavioral. And I can't
Speaker 4: think about it. Hold on, this isn't my book that
Speaker 4: I just wrote.
Speaker 3: So it is like cited.
Speaker 2: This is where sides come in.
Speaker 1: I look this up in the review copy of her
Speaker 1: book that I got, and she writes, grief is not
Speaker 1: a feeling, it's a process. The symptoms of grief response
Speaker 1: can be grouped into six categories cognitive, behavioral, emotional, physical, social,
Speaker 1: and spiritual. So we were missing emotional, just so hilariously
Speaker 1: hidden in plain sight of course.
Speaker 4: Emotional anyway, so like physical symptoms dry lips that you
Speaker 4: just cannot manage or guest of yes, that could be
Speaker 4: a physical manifestation.
Speaker 1: I've been asking this poor man for lipbomb hourly and
Speaker 1: he's like, I don't have any of my fans back.
Speaker 4: Also bloating and like just abdominal stuff, and it's totally
Speaker 4: possible for this is why some people just don't cry.
Speaker 4: And this is also a source of a lot of
Speaker 4: family conflict because I've seen siblings where two of the
Speaker 4: three siblings are crying and one is not, and the
Speaker 4: other two siblings gang up on the sibling that's not crying.
Speaker 4: They're like, didn't you love mom? Like why are you
Speaker 4: not crying? Because not all of us, Oh, emotional, that's
Speaker 4: the other category there we go, so emotional. Not everybody
Speaker 4: is emotional in their grief response. Sometimes people are more
Speaker 4: behavioral or cognitive, like forgetting things or like we would
Speaker 4: just played pickleball and I mean, you could have missed
Speaker 4: a shot. Maybe it's because of all alterations in your
Speaker 4: cognitive state right now.
Speaker 3: Sure, because you're freaking grief.
Speaker 2: Date last time.
Speaker 4: But yeah, so that's what our grief actually is. And
Speaker 4: I think it can be really helpful to know that
Speaker 4: it's not just an emotion. It's like a whole body experience.
Speaker 4: And that's why it can be really overwhelming to go
Speaker 4: through because like everything can be affected.
Speaker 3: But that's normal.
Speaker 4: It's a response to loss, and it is as unique
Speaker 4: as your own thumb print. And you'll never have the
Speaker 4: same grief like in the future when you lose people,
Speaker 4: it will not probably look exactly like how it is
Speaker 4: today because you'll be a different person in the future.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what about stifling it, It always comes out a.
Speaker 2: Different crack, right mm hmm.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so just roll with it. So this is like my.
Speaker 4: Favorite advice is too advices to keep your grief moving
Speaker 4: and every day it'll need something different. Some days you
Speaker 4: need to take it for a walk, some days you
Speaker 4: need to take it for a nice bath. Some days
Speaker 4: you need to take it out to the hillside to
Speaker 4: cry and look at the sunset. Sometimes you need to
Speaker 4: take it out for dinner with friends in a good
Speaker 4: way that like the grieving brain, I think can understand.
Speaker 4: This is not scientific, This is just me is to
Speaker 4: ask yourself, what does my grief need today? What can
Speaker 4: I do with my grief today? Because you want to
Speaker 4: keep it moving. I think like a good example is
Speaker 4: like if you like, do you compost stuff or like,
Speaker 4: have saved food scraps.
Speaker 1: I have composts before before. I've kept a moldy canister
Speaker 1: on my account. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So if you.
Speaker 4: Leave stuff in there and it doesn't get moved, it
Speaker 4: will rot and it will not be good. That's and
Speaker 4: that's a lot like grief. You've got to keep it moving.
Speaker 4: You got to give it air, you got to give
Speaker 4: it sunlight, you got to got to take it for
Speaker 4: some walks, and you know, keep it cooking otherwise it
Speaker 4: won't transform so that you can flourish again in the future.
Speaker 4: The other thing is that might be helpful is like clinically,
Speaker 4: like if you're a grief counselor a therapist, and how
Speaker 4: do we assess if somebody may need some additional intervention
Speaker 4: kind of the loose rule of thumb excluding things like
Speaker 4: self harm. Is anything kind of within the first six
Speaker 4: months after a major loss, a big death or a
Speaker 4: shadow loss is normal. Basically, it's fair game. It's when
Speaker 4: your life is so significantly impacted that you cannot live
Speaker 4: your life after that six month period that might be
Speaker 4: when some additional interment of strategies might make sense. But
Speaker 4: kind of if if it's within six months, you're not broken.
Speaker 2: You're just gonna be a little bit of a shit show, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can bet a messy Yeah.
Speaker 2: What about we talked about this earlier.
Speaker 1: What about like the anger component, that's the stage or
Speaker 1: the facet of.
Speaker 2: Grief that freaks me out the most.
Speaker 1: So a friend of mine was in the middle of
Speaker 1: a kitchen remodel when she learned that she lost her
Speaker 1: dad rather suddenly, and she flew home to be with family,
Speaker 1: and I remember her saying weeks later back in La
Speaker 1: she had a meltdown over like the width of a
Speaker 1: cabinet and realized later that that was just grief coming
Speaker 1: out sideways. And I experienced this myself when my dad
Speaker 1: was still alive. A few things that should have just
Speaker 1: rolled right off me felt devastating and infuriating, and I
Speaker 1: just had to leave and cool down. Could just confounded
Speaker 1: by my own brain, I just wanted to exile myself.
Speaker 1: How how do you deal with that one? Because that's
Speaker 1: just that can be destructive, you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So anger is helpful and that it lets you
Speaker 4: know when there's a problem. So anytime that you have
Speaker 4: like an eruption or like it really you know, that's
Speaker 4: a time to be like, whoa, what is really wrong?
Speaker 4: And sometimes it can be helpful to ask, like what's
Speaker 4: wrong with my Is it my inner child that's upset
Speaker 4: or is it my adult self that's upset? Because sometimes
Speaker 4: with loss, because when for example, when your dad is dying,
Speaker 4: you're saying goodbye to your eight year old self daddy,
Speaker 4: you know, at the same time as your adult self,
Speaker 4: And so sometimes you can have little funny triggers that
Speaker 4: show up also because you end up being around family
Speaker 4: and stuff, usually at the end of life, in ways
Speaker 4: that maybe you haven't been in a really long time,
Speaker 4: and it's just trigger fast. The other thing with anger
Speaker 4: that I'll say that relates more specifically to people who've
Speaker 4: been socialized.
Speaker 3: As women.
Speaker 4: We're often taught that anger is not feminine, that anger
Speaker 4: is not okay. If you've been socialized this way, and
Speaker 4: often it is harder for women to deal with anger
Speaker 4: than it is for men. Yeah, when it comes to
Speaker 4: just anger in general, but with grief, because it's like
Speaker 4: being socialized that it's something to be ashamed of, that
Speaker 4: it's like not a good quality to have, but it
Speaker 4: is a quality we all have, and it just it
Speaker 4: speaks up when we need help.
Speaker 1: Ooh, Harley got a little wave. What about when supporting
Speaker 1: someone who's going through this? So I lost my dad,
Speaker 1: my mom lost her husband. Jared lost someone that he
Speaker 1: who's been in his life for you know, years, but
Speaker 1: also like his wife lost her dad. When it comes
Speaker 1: to knowing someone who is going through this either and
Speaker 1: his grief or like straight up grief, like what are
Speaker 1: some good ways to support them?
Speaker 4: That's a great question, and it can also be sort
Speaker 4: of tricky because you like, when you're in the role
Speaker 4: of supporting, there's always boundaries to be aware of and
Speaker 4: like you don't want to like overstep, and like, I've
Speaker 4: thought about this with you because you have a big
Speaker 4: friend network here and people that have known you longer
Speaker 4: than I certainly have. And it was like just having
Speaker 4: I had an awareness like around is this too much?
Speaker 4: I don't want to be like this freak from Kentucky
Speaker 4: that's like, oh my god, there's somebody dying. This is
Speaker 4: my time to shine, like see what I mean? Like
Speaker 4: I am, but I'm hyper aware of that. Just in general,
Speaker 4: I think I did okay. I think I did it
Speaker 4: maybe overstep, but just having that like awareness around your
Speaker 4: closeness to the griever to the situation is just a
Speaker 4: good thing to check on yourself with. I think one
Speaker 4: of the easiest things for people to do is to
Speaker 4: just be willing to send a text message. But I
Speaker 4: think it's good to send a text that says you
Speaker 4: don't need to respond, but I just want to. But
Speaker 4: you know that I'm thinking of you. Like that kind
Speaker 4: of thing. I think that most often is received well,
Speaker 4: there's certainly people that they be like that sounds like
Speaker 4: my nightmare, but you know your friends and your family best.
Speaker 1: Cole shared some stats from Penn State professor, sociologist and
Speaker 1: demographer doctor Ashton for Dary.
Speaker 4: He and his team did some research with losses from
Speaker 4: COVID nineteen, specifically big deaths, and they found that for
Speaker 4: every death from COVID nineteen, there are nine like immediate
Speaker 4: sort of grievers to that one COVID death. So if
Speaker 4: there's been let's say a million deaths by COVID, then
Speaker 4: there's nine million people actively grieving those deaths.
Speaker 2: And that's just in the US, and that's.
Speaker 4: Just in the US, and that doesn't include shadow losses
Speaker 4: like do you know people have you know with COVID
Speaker 4: you've lost jobs, you've lost your ability to work anymore.
Speaker 4: There's been millions more shadow losses than big deaths because
Speaker 4: of COVID. And so I think, how a way that
Speaker 4: I now live my life, having spent so much of
Speaker 4: it in thanatology, is I really just try to treat
Speaker 4: everybody like their grieving. Like even when I go the
Speaker 4: coffee shop, my assumption is that they're grieving. And I
Speaker 4: think that also helps you navigate family situations where you
Speaker 4: discovered just how different you are. You know, it's really
Speaker 4: hard to not be loving to someone that's grieving, even
Speaker 4: if you are very much not the same person. And
Speaker 4: I think that's just kind of good advice for anybody.
Speaker 4: And because if you're treating everyone like they're grieving, you're
Speaker 4: going to be acting from your own best self.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So my dad has put on hospice on a
Speaker 1: rainy Friday afternoon in late May, and it was one
Speaker 1: of the worst days of my life. My sister Janelle
Speaker 1: had to break the news that his oncologist had called
Speaker 1: it and the medical warfare and his body was to stop,
Speaker 1: cease fire and the farewell was to commence. And the
Speaker 1: next morning, you know, Star and I rushed around the
Speaker 1: house just weeping and packing our bags to make this
Speaker 1: seven hour drive to be bedside with my family. I
Speaker 1: heard a knock at the door. It was Cole and
Speaker 1: Victor and they had arrived with a little package before
Speaker 1: we got on the road, some handmade daisy chain necklaces,
Speaker 1: some quick hugs and advice, and a dozen black and
Speaker 1: lilac buttons that Cole had designed that say I'm grieving,
Speaker 1: Be kind, be gentle, And as I record this three
Speaker 1: months later, I have that button on a belt loop
Speaker 1: of my pants. I wear it all the time still.
Speaker 1: And Cole is right, it's a good angle to approach
Speaker 1: any interaction during these very weird times. To be honest,
Speaker 1: Any other advice you'd give to someone who's about to
Speaker 1: go through this, or is anticipating a big loss, or
Speaker 1: it's been through one.
Speaker 4: So for anyone that's about to embark on this or
Speaker 4: even just has at some point, one of the things
Speaker 4: we know from research is that you have better outcomes
Speaker 4: for yourself because you got to take care of yourself.
Speaker 4: Because when you take care of yourself, you're taking care
Speaker 4: of everybody around you.
Speaker 3: Is you're less likely to have.
Speaker 4: Complications with your grieving process if you have something in
Speaker 4: your life that is meaningful to you and that you
Speaker 4: know what that is. So for some people it's like,
Speaker 4: you know, maybe the ritual of making really good coffee
Speaker 4: every morning and the sounds and that that's like, that's
Speaker 4: where that's your church, so to speak. For other people,
Speaker 4: it is religion. That's where that's meaningful for them. But
Speaker 4: a lot of people, especially in the United States and
Speaker 4: as we've seen a decrease in religiosity, a lot of
Speaker 4: people don't have things that they're like, oh, yeah, this
Speaker 4: is where I find meaning.
Speaker 1: So where do we find meaning? A lot of places, starting.
Speaker 4: Outside, plants are a good place to find that because
Speaker 4: plants are not offensive. Right, Like, any given plan is
Speaker 4: not attached to a specific religion or a specific political
Speaker 4: group or so it has like this wonderful opportunity to
Speaker 4: be something that you can find meaning in that can
Speaker 4: maybe support and carry you through whatever it is. I
Speaker 4: think identifying for what what is meaningful to you about life?
Speaker 4: Where do you find meaning? Where do you find connection?
Speaker 4: Where do you find purpose? That's what you need to
Speaker 4: hold on to in some way as best you can
Speaker 4: through the grieving process, because it will be there for
Speaker 4: you on the other side. It's easier said than done.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Cole started making these daisy chain necklaces after her beloved companion,
Speaker 1: a Dwarf beagle named Ruby, passed away at the age
Speaker 1: of sixteen, and with each necklace she includes a sheet
Speaker 1: of paper just about them, and in it she writes, Ruby,
Speaker 1: my beloved beagle was like my child. She was by
Speaker 1: my side for sixteen years. The daisy became a meaningful
Speaker 1: symbol as I navigated my life after loss. Anyone who
Speaker 1: loses a pet understands how hard that loss can be.
Speaker 1: Who else shares our bed, the couch, bathroom time meals.
Speaker 1: The absence of a pet is often felt more strongly
Speaker 1: than the absence of a person, because we often share
Speaker 1: more physical space with a pet throughout each day and
Speaker 1: week than we do with most of the humans. Lives,
Speaker 1: She writes, as I moved through life after loss, these
Speaker 1: daisy chains allowed me to connect with grief and keep
Speaker 1: my grief moving, She continues. No matter your loss, I
Speaker 1: hope the daisy becomes meaningful for you too. Daisy's are sturdy,
Speaker 1: and they remind us that so too are we. And
Speaker 1: eventually Cole was able to grieve Ruby and was ready
Speaker 1: to welcome a new beagle in her life. And she
Speaker 1: got a call that there happened to be one available
Speaker 1: through a beagle rescue, which is pretty rare, and it
Speaker 1: happened to be another dwarf Beagle and the name happened
Speaker 1: to be.
Speaker 2: Daisy. I'll just let you ball your face off about that.
Speaker 2: I'll let myself ball my face off about that.
Speaker 1: When she told me that, I was like, Ahhh, nothing's real,
Speaker 1: everything's in simulation.
Speaker 2: That's beautiful, okay.
Speaker 1: So Cole had let people in her life and online
Speaker 1: know that Ruby had passed and invited anyone who wanted
Speaker 1: to light a candle to illuminate Ruby's path over the
Speaker 1: Rainbow Bridge, and that sense of community really helped her
Speaker 1: a lot. She told me about it, and then it
Speaker 1: helped me too, having people who maybe knew you from afar,
Speaker 1: like you know, hashtag and light a candle for her
Speaker 1: meant a lot, and yes it did because of that
Speaker 1: and you giving me that advice of like a way
Speaker 1: to carry me through it like a critter pick for
Speaker 1: grandpad mm hmm. Those first you know, forty eight hours
Speaker 1: seeing those and just seeing how he was alive in
Speaker 1: the world in people's minds feel for you amazing helped
Speaker 1: so much and I didn't feel so alone and I
Speaker 1: knew that there were and I knew how much how
Speaker 1: meaningful his life was to so many people who he
Speaker 1: had never he would never meet, but how his ideas
Speaker 1: carry on. And so those are like pieces of advice.
Speaker 1: The reason I wanted to do this, Minisot is like
Speaker 1: these were these invaluable pieces of advice that I never
Speaker 1: would have gotten if I hadn't found you on social
Speaker 1: media and me you hang out with me in Cincinnati.
Speaker 1: But those things were really really meaningful.
Speaker 4: And that meaning knits you to your people closer, like
Speaker 4: you have these other connection points. And that's also something
Speaker 4: that helps we see, like clinically helps people move through
Speaker 4: the process of grief is when they have social support.
Speaker 4: And I mean honestly like people can say no, but
Speaker 4: something as simple as like those Instagram posts, that is medicine.
Speaker 4: That is grief medicine. It really truly is. I mean,
Speaker 4: it made all the difference for me when I lost
Speaker 4: my puppy dog and for you with your dad. So
Speaker 4: that's just au nudged to anyone listening that you can
Speaker 4: do that. That's a way that you can support others
Speaker 4: through this is share the pictures, share the stories. Take
Speaker 4: the time to do that because it's not a burden,
Speaker 4: and it's really nice to see when you were sad.
Speaker 2: No, it helps so much. It keeps helping.
Speaker 1: And also obviously just the notion of giving yourself grace
Speaker 1: and giving others grace is knowing that I'm going to
Speaker 1: go into this and I'm not going to.
Speaker 2: Be outperforming myself.
Speaker 1: I'm not necessarily going to be writing a book during
Speaker 1: this time. Like my laundry is clean and unfolding on
Speaker 1: my couch right now, and that is fine, but it's
Speaker 1: really I think hopefully I will come out to the
Speaker 1: other side of this having some perspective on what's important
Speaker 1: in life, taking care of myself, enjoying life. While I
Speaker 1: am on this side of the grass, as my dad
Speaker 1: would say, so any any last pieces of advice or
Speaker 1: any any books that you would recommend other than your own,
Speaker 1: that we have to patiently wait for it to be released.
Speaker 4: I think the last thing I would just say is
Speaker 4: you know what you need. You know what you need.
Speaker 4: You just have to sometimes listen a little harder, and
Speaker 4: you have everything that you need already, I hope.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I keep thinking of myself like a werewolf lock it
Speaker 1: at a basement. But people are much more understanding than
Speaker 1: I thought.
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm.
Speaker 4: It's nice to see, isn't it. Yeah, because you're that
Speaker 4: way to people. I hope sometimes grief going through it,
Speaker 4: it shows you what you mean to other people.
Speaker 3: It shows you who's there for you.
Speaker 4: And that is also like a really intense part of
Speaker 4: the experience is seeing who shows up for you. And
Speaker 4: I mean it's messy. It's a messy process. Perfect does
Speaker 4: not equal good, and you cannot strive for perfection right
Speaker 4: because it's just messy. You can't control it, and you
Speaker 4: never know what you're gonna get.
Speaker 1: And you can tell instantly who in your life has
Speaker 1: lost someone because they're the ones who are not afraid
Speaker 1: to send you a text being like this fucking sucks,
Speaker 1: but you're gonna be okay, yep. And there are people
Speaker 1: who have come out of the woodwork where I'm like,
Speaker 1: I would not expect you to be in my phone
Speaker 1: right now, or in my DMS right now, or emailing
Speaker 1: me or sending flowers and the compassion I feel like
Speaker 1: you gain from it, and the perspective you gain, like
Speaker 1: if nothing else, I am excited to help other people
Speaker 1: who haven't been through this come through it.
Speaker 3: Yes, because you've been there now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's like a that's like something in my tool
Speaker 1: belt I didn't have before, and I feel like that's
Speaker 1: something I was.
Speaker 2: Gonna try to make this that you know, that is
Speaker 2: that is a gift.
Speaker 1: That my dad gave me and and his dying is
Speaker 1: I'll be better and helping other people, which is probably
Speaker 1: what he would have wanted.
Speaker 3: So it's true.
Speaker 4: And it can feel really healing to be on the
Speaker 4: other side of this and helping somebody else through it, I.
Speaker 2: Think, So I hope.
Speaker 3: So, yeah, I got to clean myself up a little.
Speaker 3: But you're not through it out, Okay, we're not going to.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I ran a Wikipedia page.
Speaker 3: Why am I crying? Still?
Speaker 2: No? But I just thank you so much.
Speaker 1: You and Victor, have you and Victor and Jared, We're
Speaker 1: all sitting here on the corner of West tail And
Speaker 1: AFTERNUE forty six in northeast La V four have really
Speaker 1: you three?
Speaker 2: This four have been so helpful.
Speaker 1: And yeah, there's just so many times when you guys
Speaker 1: have literally been there for me, like in my worst moments.
Speaker 1: So I'm really really glad that I've found you on Instagram,
Speaker 1: that I meet you be friends.
Speaker 4: You want that too, And thank you for letting me
Speaker 4: be a part of your life and a part of
Speaker 4: your journey and being a part of this.
Speaker 3: Really big thing in your life. I'm you really like
Speaker 3: a special part of friendship.
Speaker 4: Good'm so sorry you watched your dad.
Speaker 3: Should happen.
Speaker 4: I would like to say thank you to all the
Speaker 4: Oligites because since that Pantatology episode aired in October of
Speaker 4: twenty seventeen, I most days get messages from listeners on
Speaker 4: my Instagram. To this day, I had to this morning
Speaker 4: for people who listen to the episode and just you
Speaker 4: just want to tell me something or I don't know,
Speaker 4: And I do think I do a pretty good job
Speaker 4: of responding to most people, but I just want to
Speaker 4: say that I really appreciate that, and that I find
Speaker 4: meaning in that. I find meaning in that, and that
Speaker 4: is something I never certainly never foresaw and now ologies
Speaker 4: is like one of the.
Speaker 3: Biggest, baddest podcasts in the freaking universe.
Speaker 2: Who knew that I want to listen about lizard dicks
Speaker 2: and death?
Speaker 3: Yep, they do. People are weird. People are weird.
Speaker 2: I love you. Thank you for being here.
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me, Cole and Perry.
Speaker 1: Just if you want to take a minute to applaud,
Speaker 1: be safe if you're driving, but just Cole and Perry.
Speaker 1: You can find her on social media at the links
Speaker 1: in the show notes. Her website is linked as well.
Speaker 1: Google her, befriend her socially, medially check out the school
Speaker 1: she founded, the School of American Thanatology, which offers education
Speaker 1: in fanatology and death work and in thanobotany, which is
Speaker 1: another term that she coined to describe the way that
Speaker 1: plants are used in death and dying and grieving. And
Speaker 1: a donation for this episode will go to them, and
Speaker 1: you can learn more at americanthanatology dot com, which will
Speaker 1: be linked in the show notes. So thank you to
Speaker 1: Cole and thank you to sponsors for allowing us to
Speaker 1: make that donation. Okay, So for the second half of
Speaker 1: the episode, here is advice that I would give myself
Speaker 1: in the past, or you if you're afraid of someone
Speaker 1: dying or going through it, or trying to support someone
Speaker 1: through it. I'm just going to try to do this
Speaker 1: all in one take. We're going to see how this goes.
Speaker 1: I have very very bare bones notes. We're just gonna Okay,
Speaker 1: here we go, in no order at all. First off,
Speaker 1: there's a thing called anticipatory grief. I did not know
Speaker 1: about until I was in it, and I realized that
Speaker 1: I had been kind of experiencing it for a decade
Speaker 1: or so since my dad was diagnosed. But if you
Speaker 1: are scared of someone dying, if you are going through
Speaker 1: the process with someone, look up anticipatory grief.
Speaker 2: You'll be like, oh.
Speaker 1: That, And I will tell you there were moments in
Speaker 1: the anticipatory grief phase that were worse than after my
Speaker 1: dad passed, because I had to grapple with every single
Speaker 1: moment and how meaningful was it and how much do
Speaker 1: I get up in my dad's space and smother him
Speaker 1: versus letting him just be at peace on his iPad.
Speaker 1: Also the grief of seeing someone you love and a
Speaker 1: lot of pain and seeing them scared. Anyway, anticipatory grief
Speaker 1: get into it. I will also say that the time
Speaker 1: that my dad was diagnosed with cancer, I remember I
Speaker 1: mourned and grieved that day as though that were his last,
Speaker 1: not knowing that he would have nine and a half
Speaker 1: years after his diagnosis after a two year prognosis. You know,
Speaker 1: there were so many ups and downs. There's so many
Speaker 1: ups and downs with all of our lives. All of
Speaker 1: us just take each day, day by day, no matter
Speaker 1: what crisis is happening around you, take each moment, moment
Speaker 1: by moment. You don't know what tomorrow is going to have.
Speaker 1: If you are having a good day, have a good day.
Speaker 1: You will confront each crisis as it comes up and
Speaker 1: just live in the moment.
Speaker 2: That's all that you can deal with.
Speaker 1: Handkerchiefs not cleanex people cleanexes, you got to throw them away.
Speaker 1: Sometimes they rip, sometimes they leave white particles all over
Speaker 1: your mustache. Handkerchiefs, heroes, bandanas where my best friend I
Speaker 1: always had a couple of clean ones around and you
Speaker 1: toss them in the wash. They're more absorbent and they're
Speaker 1: more fun to honk your schnads into handkerchiefs. Not CLEANX
Speaker 1: CLEANEX love you. You're definitely here for things that I
Speaker 1: want to mop up and throw away. But when you
Speaker 1: got to stop up some tears and just garden varieties
Speaker 1: not handkerchiefs are great.
Speaker 2: Grief counselors need one.
Speaker 1: Get one. I really do use the better help service
Speaker 1: than I advertise, and I got some solid advice and perspective.
Speaker 1: But grief counselors might be available through your work, through
Speaker 1: your health insurance, through your university, through community programs. A
Speaker 1: hospice often has bereavement and grief counseling for family members,
Speaker 1: so look into it.
Speaker 2: Super helpful.
Speaker 1: If you can work remotely and someone is sick, ask
Speaker 1: people you work with, can you work remotely and be there?
Speaker 1: I am so lucky, so lucky that this is my
Speaker 1: job because I was able to take my laptop and
Speaker 1: my editor who is legally married to me, and go
Speaker 1: up and do this job from my sister's dining room
Speaker 1: table and from her garage.
Speaker 2: So lucky.
Speaker 1: If it's possible, The time that you spend with someone
Speaker 1: in hospice is the most valuable time. I feel like
Speaker 1: you can spend with them, the number of days I
Speaker 1: got to spend with my dad, and also just being
Speaker 1: there for my mom and being around my sisters. You know,
Speaker 1: when you see your family for the holidays, like let's
Speaker 1: say you celebrate Christmas, you might see them for two
Speaker 1: days around that holiday, and this was like having four
Speaker 1: months of that.
Speaker 2: And the time that.
Speaker 1: We got to spend together in the memories that we
Speaker 1: made are something that helped me every single day knowing
Speaker 1: that I got to spend that time there. And if
Speaker 1: it's possible to look into bereavement leave or look into
Speaker 1: working remotely, ask There's no harm in asking, and it
Speaker 1: is something that you will never ever regret. Of course,
Speaker 1: this can be very individual, and it depends on your relationship.
Speaker 1: You know, if it'll cause more harm to you, or
Speaker 1: you have a bad or abusive relationship with someone, then
Speaker 1: obviously you need to make decisions invest for you. And
Speaker 1: also I want to acknowledge that my family was fortunate
Speaker 1: that this wasn't a sudden loss, that we had a
Speaker 1: heads up to take some of these actions and to
Speaker 1: really process it. One piece of advice is so many
Speaker 1: people gave me that was so helpful was take video obviously,
Speaker 1: I got a lot of pictures in my pop a
Speaker 1: lot of pictures in my family. But video who Boy
Speaker 1: comes in clutch When you are missing someone and you
Speaker 1: want to hear their voice and their mannerisms, love a
Speaker 1: video that's helpful. I also voice recorded some of his stories.
Speaker 1: But that's advice that a lot of people gave me
Speaker 1: that I'm so happy to have had. Also, if you
Speaker 1: want to get your mind around what is hospice, what
Speaker 1: is dying, what's the medical process of it? There's a
Speaker 1: frontline documentary called Being Mortal that was on PBS. And
Speaker 1: my friend Kara Sanna Maria, who has a podcast called
Speaker 1: Talk Nerdy. She's awesome and she's studying existential psychology. She's
Speaker 1: about to get her peachc NET. She recommended this documentary,
Speaker 1: Being Mortal. It's so great at getting some perspective and
Speaker 1: understanding how many families go through this, how many families.
Speaker 2: When a death isn't sudden, how to prepare for it.
Speaker 1: I feel like if you have some time, you are
Speaker 1: one of the lucky ones. And so Being Mortal. It's
Speaker 1: a frontline documentary. I thought that Frontline was the same
Speaker 1: as Dateline. Those are different programs. Frontline is PBS datelines
Speaker 1: like I think like true crime, but Frontline doc grade
Speaker 1: being mortal. Also, Cole sent me a series of books,
Speaker 1: the End of Life Guideline Series. A link these on
Speaker 1: my website. It's a compilation by Barbara Karnes, who's an
Speaker 1: RN and they're a series of I think, five very slim,
Speaker 1: wonderfully written booklets on what to expect if you are dying,
Speaker 1: what emotions are going to come up, what to prepare for,
Speaker 1: how to handle it if someone you love is dying,
Speaker 1: how to read the signs in hospice of what to
Speaker 1: expect physically to happen. It helped so much in terms
Speaker 1: of looking for signs of how my dad was doing,
Speaker 1: how he was progressing. One thing that helped so much
Speaker 1: in those books is the knowledge that some people want
Speaker 1: to die alone. We always think that dying alone is
Speaker 1: the sign that you have lived life wrong, and that's
Speaker 1: not true. Some people prefer to pass away with no
Speaker 1: one else in the room, and they might hang on
Speaker 1: until they are alone. Just like you might be able
Speaker 1: to use the toilet with the door open, someone else
Speaker 1: might be like, I need to go home to pooh
Speaker 1: if I'm at work. Some people might feel that way dying.
Speaker 1: I suppose it's somewhat similar. If you're a private person,
Speaker 1: you might want to go privately. And so some people
Speaker 1: spend their whole life thinking I was with my mother
Speaker 1: at her bedside or my husband at their bedside, and
Speaker 1: as soon as I got up to go get a sandwich,
Speaker 1: they passed away, and I missed it, and I disappointed
Speaker 1: them and I let them down. That is not that random.
Speaker 1: Some people don't want to go with people around, and
Speaker 1: they want to either spare people or they just feel watched.
Speaker 1: And so my dad, we were around him twenty four seven.
Speaker 1: He had a bell that he would jingle in the
Speaker 1: night when he needed to get up to use the bathroom,
Speaker 1: and tare it would race up out of bed go
Speaker 1: help my dad in the bathroom in all hours of
Speaker 1: the night. We were there anything he wanted, any meal
Speaker 1: he wanted, and it was an honor to do that.
Speaker 1: But my dad passed away the day that my sister
Speaker 1: had to go into the office when my other sister
Speaker 1: had COVID and couldn't be around for a while. After
Speaker 1: me and Jarrett took a week off to go back
Speaker 1: to la to get some more stuff and just kind
Speaker 1: of reset, and when my mom was in the other
Speaker 1: room taking a phone call. My mom was away for
Speaker 1: seven minutes calling his hospice nurse just to check on
Speaker 1: some things. That is when he slipped away in his
Speaker 1: sleep and Larry that's how he wanted to go. So
Speaker 1: if that has been your experience, or if anyone you
Speaker 1: know is dealing with like that kind of guilt or feelings,
Speaker 1: that is not that random. I'll also say during a
Speaker 1: grieving period or pre grieving, get a hobby that's tac
Speaker 1: dial if you can. I started collecting little rocks from
Speaker 1: the gravel driveway when we would walk the dog, and
Speaker 1: then I would come home and put them in a
Speaker 1: color order. It was just fun. Just something with your
Speaker 1: hands you can do that's not on your phone, that
Speaker 1: just connects you to anything.
Speaker 2: Bead work, maybe make some daisy chains.
Speaker 1: I started doing that a little bit and it's just
Speaker 1: really nice and kind of grounding and gets you out
Speaker 1: of your phone and out of your head. Also, just
Speaker 1: know that you're gonna be a little bit stressed and
Speaker 1: know when to step away and take care of yourself.
Speaker 1: You know, as they say, you can't pour from an
Speaker 1: empty cup. And if you need to take a minute
Speaker 1: to go outside and meditate, if you need to go
Speaker 1: watch the sunset at night, if you need to make
Speaker 1: sure that you're washing your hair, things like that.
Speaker 2: Take care of yourself.
Speaker 1: You will be better able to show up and help
Speaker 1: other people when you're not worn down and burned out.
Speaker 1: And I did something where I something to just engage
Speaker 1: my senses when my dad was in hospice. I bought
Speaker 1: these tiny perfume samples just because that little like little
Speaker 1: sprits maybe before I went to bed or something, or
Speaker 1: just if I wanted to sniff them. Was just something
Speaker 1: that brought me pleasure. That was twenty four dollars for
Speaker 1: several perfume samples that will last me for months. And
Speaker 1: I just wanted to sniff nice things. So anything that
Speaker 1: brings you a little bit of happiness, you'll be able
Speaker 1: to carry that forward to the people that you're taking
Speaker 1: care of, or if you're grieving anything that is just
Speaker 1: a little treat and know that you're just doing your best.
Speaker 1: Parents with infants are playing it by ear and they're
Speaker 1: doing their best too. And if you're caring for someone
Speaker 1: who is dying, or if you're grieving someone, you're just
Speaker 1: doing your best at any given moment, and there is
Speaker 1: no perfect. Just showing up and loving someone and doing
Speaker 1: your best is great. Don't marry an asshole. If you
Speaker 1: have a feeling you're about to marry an asshole, maybe
Speaker 1: think twice about it. It turned out having a nice, generous,
Speaker 1: caring person who understood how important it is to show
Speaker 1: up for people and love people through the hard times
Speaker 1: turned out that that was a good decision. Tell your
Speaker 1: friends that you might need more check ins. Sometimes friends
Speaker 1: like don't want to bother if they think you're going
Speaker 1: through some crisis stuff. And if you give them a
Speaker 1: heads up that you're, like, I might need you just
Speaker 1: to check in, they'll be like great, and a lot
Speaker 1: of them will do that. But sometimes people just don't
Speaker 1: know what to do, so they were just like, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna leave you alone.
Speaker 2: And sometimes that you're like, why isn't anyone checking in
Speaker 2: on me?
Speaker 1: And so just tell them, hey, can you check in?
Speaker 1: Send me some pictures of your pets or something. When
Speaker 1: you're going through this, whether you have someone in your
Speaker 1: life who's just passed away or who might some friends
Speaker 1: are gonna suck at this. They're going to be bad
Speaker 1: at it. Because they haven't been through it. And I
Speaker 1: I had friends who would call me and they'd immediately
Speaker 1: start crying.
Speaker 2: I'd be having like an okay day.
Speaker 1: I'd be like going to the pharmacy to pick up
Speaker 1: some meds for my dad and be like, Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: just taking it day by day. He wants he wants
Speaker 1: mac and cheese tonight, great, get to pick that up.
Speaker 1: And then I'd have a friend Called'd be like, how
Speaker 1: are you doing, and they'd just start bawling, and then
Speaker 1: they'd start crying about what would happen if they're of
Speaker 1: a loved parent died, And then I would be consoling them.
Speaker 1: And you know what, some friends are just not going
Speaker 1: to be that good at it because they haven't been
Speaker 1: through it.
Speaker 2: Love them anyway, and.
Speaker 1: Maybe just let them know what you're capable of talking
Speaker 1: about at the moment.
Speaker 2: But it's endearing and it's sweet.
Speaker 1: And know that once you're through this, once you're through
Speaker 1: a loss that's pretty pretty big to you, you will
Speaker 1: be one of the friends who doesn't suck because you'll
Speaker 1: start to understand. And I had friends that showed up
Speaker 1: out of the woodwork that I didn't expect would be
Speaker 1: so supportive who were just checking in and just knew
Speaker 1: what it was like. And you'll be one of those.
Speaker 1: So if you're going through a loss, if you're grieving,
Speaker 1: think of it like a software update. It's a you
Speaker 1: know how they suck and you have to go offline
Speaker 1: for a while and whatever. Your phone or your computer
Speaker 1: gets updated and you're like, ugh, I can't even function
Speaker 1: with this right now. And afterward things will be different
Speaker 1: and they will take some getting used to, but it's
Speaker 1: a software update that you will be able to show
Speaker 1: up for other people in a way that you just
Speaker 1: couldn't before. Also, if anyone in your life, whether they
Speaker 1: have a diagnosis that's terminal or not, let's all ask
Speaker 1: each other about funeral arrangements. Okay, let's write that down.
Speaker 1: Let's start a Google doc and share it with our
Speaker 1: loved ones. Write it on a notepad, I don't care.
Speaker 1: Write it on a whiteboard updated daily if you want,
Speaker 1: but make some funeral arrangements. Do you want to be buried?
Speaker 1: Do you want to be cremated? What do you want
Speaker 1: to be wearing? Is there anyone you don't want invited?
Speaker 1: If you make a plan for your funeral, your loved
Speaker 1: ones who are devastated after your pass won't have to
Speaker 1: make decisions, and that is such a service for them.
Speaker 1: We asked my dad right after hospice started what he wanted,
Speaker 1: and he was amazingly specific. He was in the Air Force.
Speaker 1: He wanted a military funeral, he wanted the rifle volley salute,
Speaker 1: he wanted taps played, and because he was a Morse
Speaker 1: code operator in the Air Force, he wanted Morse code
Speaker 1: that spelled out QCQ. This is Sergeant Ward signing off.
Speaker 1: And what a beautiful fucking thing to tell your family
Speaker 1: that you want. How specific we were able to get
Speaker 1: that done, We were able to play it at his
Speaker 1: military funeral, and it was such a gift to us
Speaker 1: that we knew that we were doing.
Speaker 2: Right by him.
Speaker 1: So, even if you are going to live one hundred
Speaker 1: more years, write out some funeral arrangements, because the people
Speaker 1: who love you will be like, thank you so much. Also,
Speaker 1: heads up, did you know that if you have a
Speaker 1: military funeral, you get a bugler and you get like
Speaker 1: a rifle volley, like a boom boom boom. But there's
Speaker 1: a shortage of buglers, and so a lot of times
Speaker 1: at military funerals they have a quote ceremonial bugle, which
Speaker 1: is a fake bugle or a real bugle, I'm not sure,
Speaker 1: but it has a speaker in the horn and they
Speaker 1: just press a button and it plays recorded taps. There
Speaker 1: is not enough buglers, but there are nonprofit organizations like
Speaker 1: buglers across America, and there are volunteer honor guards that
Speaker 1: if you say, hey, you know my loved one want
Speaker 1: at a military funeral, can you perform funeral honors? They
Speaker 1: if they're available, they will show up and shout out
Speaker 1: to Steve Mercer at the Service Veterans of Northern California
Speaker 1: Volunteer Honor Guard, they were able to come out make
Speaker 1: sure that my dad was honored in the way that
Speaker 1: he wanted. They had a live bugler. They did a
Speaker 1: rifle volley salute which was so loud but really wonderful.
Speaker 1: So if you've been looking for a place to volunteer
Speaker 1: and you're not sure where to go, and you like
Speaker 1: uniforms and funerals, find a local honor guard.
Speaker 2: If you can play the bugle.
Speaker 1: Or you've been wanting to learn, hook up with buelers
Speaker 1: across America and honor guards that might be just the
Speaker 1: volunteer work that's right for you, and it means a
Speaker 1: lot to some families. Get a will, get a will
Speaker 1: and trust. I did ask Cole if she's gotten one
Speaker 1: since our twenty seventeen interview, and she has not, and
Speaker 1: neither have I. So this is a reminder me.
Speaker 2: That's my neighbor's doock. That's a reminder to us.
Speaker 1: And everyone put it together a will and trust or
Speaker 1: else half of it goes into probate. And then also
Speaker 1: your relatives have to deal with all that. Also, once
Speaker 1: someone is passed. Cole gave me this advice, which was
Speaker 1: so wonderful. Maybe find a symbol that was meaningful to
Speaker 1: that person, like thano botanical, like a certain flower or
Speaker 1: fruit or vegetable that meant a lot, and put that
Speaker 1: within the feuderary ceremony and arrangements. And that's every time
Speaker 1: you see it, you will.
Speaker 2: Think on it again.
Speaker 1: Actually this was accidental, but I had a tomato plant
Speaker 1: growing and I hate tomatoes so much, hate them, hate them,
Speaker 1: hate them.
Speaker 2: If they're cooked, I'll eat them.
Speaker 3: But raw.
Speaker 2: Get the fuck out of here. I don't want to
Speaker 2: look at you.
Speaker 1: And I had this tomato plant sprout out of nowhere,
Speaker 1: and I send a picture to my dad and the
Speaker 1: couple of days that we were down in LA and
Speaker 1: he was like, I'd love some of those, and I
Speaker 1: was like, gross, you can have them. Anyway he died,
Speaker 1: I ended up sun drying them and then I put
Speaker 1: one in the pocket of his suit. At his funeral,
Speaker 1: my dad had an open casket funeral. I was very, very,
Speaker 1: very very freaked out about that. I was dreading that.
Speaker 1: To be honest, I wasn't prepared for it.
Speaker 2: It ended up being wonderful.
Speaker 1: It was nice to say goodbye, and I kissed his
Speaker 1: hand and I put a note in his pocket. Each
Speaker 1: of my sisters and my mom did, and so.
Speaker 2: Don't be scared of it.
Speaker 1: Cole and Victor told me right before we recorded this
Speaker 1: that humans have seen their deceased blood ones through time.
Speaker 2: There would always be a viewing before burial.
Speaker 1: Typically and it's something that helps with the closure and
Speaker 1: it was helpful for me also, if you come up
Speaker 1: with something, a symbol or something that is a visual
Speaker 1: symbol that means something to your family members, what we
Speaker 1: did is we got pins for all of us to wear.
Speaker 2: For my dad.
Speaker 1: The symbol that meant a lot to us was bridges
Speaker 1: and so before the funeral. We designed the prayer card
Speaker 1: that they kind of give out at funerals. It's like
Speaker 1: a picture and maybe a passage on the back. We
Speaker 1: designed it so that there'd be like an inch of
Speaker 1: space on the bottom. And there's someone on Etsy I
Speaker 1: found named Jim Clift Clift Jim who has a pin
Speaker 1: shop and has tons of pins. Anything imaginable, he's got
Speaker 1: a pin for it, and you can order in bulk.
Speaker 2: We ordered one hundred pins.
Speaker 1: Of little bridges, little gold bridges that meant a lot
Speaker 1: to us, and we popped them on the prayer card.
Speaker 1: And when we were handing out the prayer cards, everyone
Speaker 1: got to put a pin on their lapel. And I've
Speaker 1: given some differends and it's really wonderful to show up
Speaker 1: and see a friend who's wearing it and for me
Speaker 1: to wear it too and just kind of carry that
Speaker 1: symbol around. And we put it on the prayer card
Speaker 1: because bridges meant a lot to my dad, And so
Speaker 1: we put a passage on the back, and the passage
Speaker 1: was the builder lifted his old gray head, good friend
Speaker 1: in the path I have come, He said, there followeth
Speaker 1: after me today, a youth whose feet must pass this way,
Speaker 1: this stream that has been a joy to me, to
Speaker 1: that fair haired youth, May a pitfall be he too
Speaker 1: must cross in the twilight, dim good friend, I'm building
Speaker 1: the bridge for him.
Speaker 2: Ah.
Speaker 1: That was from a poem called the Bridge Builder, which
Speaker 1: was written about one hundred years ago by a chap
Speaker 1: named will Allen Dromgool, who was actually not a chap
Speaker 1: but a lady with a pen name. And my sister
Speaker 1: Janal found that passage and it's just perfect, and so
Speaker 1: we put that on the back of the prayer card
Speaker 1: and with a bridge pin. And so having a symbol
Speaker 1: of someone really helps you, gives you something to hang
Speaker 1: on to and something to think about. We also made
Speaker 1: a memory book with a bunch of passages from people
Speaker 1: who loved my dad that all wrote in their favorite memories.
Speaker 1: I kind of wanted to do this while he was
Speaker 1: still alive. Honestly, It's a good birthday gift for someone
Speaker 1: celebrating a birthday is have people write in their favorite
Speaker 1: memories and make pictures and put their passages in and
Speaker 1: someone can really see, while they're still alive, how appreciated
Speaker 1: they are. I made a Google form for people to
Speaker 1: fill out with their name three adjectives that described that person,
Speaker 1: which was my brother in law Steve's idea, which was great.
Speaker 2: And then a memory of them.
Speaker 1: And then I used that Google form and I used
Speaker 1: a graphic designer I found on Fiver who put it
Speaker 1: into a book, and then I got it printed and
Speaker 1: we actually buried my dad with one of those books.
Speaker 1: And it's something for all of us to have in
Speaker 1: a memento to give out, just to share how loved
Speaker 1: he was. Another thing during hospice, my dad loved, we
Speaker 1: all loved, and it's a great way to connect people.
Speaker 1: Is they're a sponsor of the show, and that's how
Speaker 1: I found out about them. They're called Aura Frames, Aurea
Speaker 1: and a bunch of people who are all logged in
Speaker 1: and update pictures to this frame, this digital frame, so
Speaker 1: you can update it anytime. We literally brought that to
Speaker 1: my dad's bedside in the hospital after he had brain surgery.
Speaker 1: It was by his chair all through hospice and Aura
Speaker 1: actually was really awesome, and they sent me a few
Speaker 1: after my dad passed away because I told him how
Speaker 1: much it meant to him to be able to see
Speaker 1: those pictures, and they sent them for my family and
Speaker 1: if you're now in the market for one or frames
Speaker 1: dot com codeologies because I'm not going to steer you
Speaker 1: away from a discount.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: Also, if someone's in the hospital, you know you can
Speaker 1: bring a blanket typically to the hospital. That's really comforting.
Speaker 1: And when my dad passed away, the funeral home that
Speaker 1: we used took my dad away with his blanket and
Speaker 1: that was really lovely to know that he was making
Speaker 1: the next leg of the journey with something that was
Speaker 1: really comforting to him. Another tip is you know someone's
Speaker 1: spouse or partner is going through a lot, and just
Speaker 1: understand that their moods may be up and down too,
Speaker 1: and to make sure that they're supported to I think
Speaker 1: a lot of times our focus is on the person
Speaker 1: who's sick, but their spouse or partner is about to
Speaker 1: lose someone really important. Really sorry about the dog marking,
Speaker 1: there's really nothing I can do, so he's just saying
Speaker 1: I anyway. Also, funeral homes, I didn't know that a
Speaker 1: lot of funeral homes are owned by the same big corporation.
Speaker 1: There's some that are privately owned. We had a great
Speaker 1: one Green Valley in Rescue, California, or amazing to us.
Speaker 1: We thought that we would have to go in there
Speaker 1: and get like upsold on a bunch of bells and
Speaker 1: whistles on a casket and stuff. And they were just
Speaker 1: very like straightened to the point they were so comforting
Speaker 1: and comfortable. So ask around maybe ahead of time about
Speaker 1: mortuaries in your area and who people like. One person
Speaker 1: that came out of the woodwork was Julie Lesnik who
Speaker 1: was in the Eating Bugs episode and just checked in
Speaker 1: with me. She lost her dad to cancer and then
Speaker 1: two years later she lost her mom to COVID and
Speaker 1: she was just like, use this as a chance to
Speaker 1: say no to everything, say no stuff for as long
Speaker 1: as you need to say no. And Julie, that is
Speaker 1: great advice. And also a grief support group is a
Speaker 1: great idea. Again, hospice services will have support groups. Sometimes
Speaker 1: local hospitals will. There might be local groups that meet
Speaker 1: at like the basement of a church or something kind
Speaker 1: of like a but a grief support group. There's something
Speaker 1: called the dinner Party that just started up. I think
Speaker 1: it's the dinner party dot com where you can join
Speaker 1: a grief support group. Your insurance plan might have those
Speaker 1: grief support groups. When it comes to the eulogy and obituary.
Speaker 1: Those are hard to write. My dad wrote a lot
Speaker 1: of people's obituaries in my family. He was like the
Speaker 1: go to for that, so we were like, well, shit, dude,
Speaker 1: you're the one that writes these. And my sister wrote
Speaker 1: the eulogy and I wrote the obituary, and it's really tough.
Speaker 1: I asked Jarrett for some notes, some opinions on it,
Speaker 1: no matter what. Tell the person who wrote it it's amazing,
Speaker 1: no matter what, even if it's garbage. Say it's the
Speaker 1: best writing. It's the best obituary I've ever read. Then
Speaker 1: give notes. I was really struggling writing my dad's and
Speaker 1: I was like, Charet, I'm really stuck here.
Speaker 2: I'm stuck.
Speaker 1: And he was like, yeah, reading it, I can tell
Speaker 1: you're struggling. It's more stilted than you would normally write it.
Speaker 1: And I was like ah, And I just had a
Speaker 1: mental breakdown at the criticism, even though I asked for notes,
Speaker 1: so it ended up taking me a long time. Do
Speaker 1: you guys want to hear my dad's oh bit just kidding.
Speaker 1: I tried to read it and I started sobbing within
Speaker 1: the first a sentence or two, and then I tried
Speaker 1: to muster through. You know what I'm gonna do. I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna put a link to it. You can read
Speaker 1: it online. You don't have to send our family flowers.
Speaker 1: We're good there. But if you'd like to know more
Speaker 1: about my dad and his life, it'll be linked. Actually,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna I'll link in the show notes. But
Speaker 1: he was called Pete by his family. Is a nickname,
Speaker 1: and it ends we wish Pete safe passage through the
Speaker 1: Golden gates and into the granule everything. We'll miss you
Speaker 1: MC eighty eight. As you used to say, right if
Speaker 1: you get work. That was an old timey thing people
Speaker 1: would say to those who left for the West. And
Speaker 1: so every morning my dad would say that he was
Speaker 1: having his coffee and to write if we got work,
Speaker 1: no matter like how many jobs we had, it was
Speaker 1: just his sign off, and to send critter pics and
Speaker 1: tales of vicariousness.
Speaker 2: Every morning. He would say that.
Speaker 1: So I just try to live that and have adventures
Speaker 1: and enjoy it. Hence the motorcycle ride the night that
Speaker 1: he died. And last week Jarrett and I fucked off
Speaker 1: and went to Disneyland for the day because we hadn't
Speaker 1: been in years, and we figured let's go on a
Speaker 1: roller coaster. Can I tell you secret? Here's my secret. Well,
Speaker 1: my dad was in hospice. He needed a haircut, and
Speaker 1: when I was cleaning up all the trimmings, I saved
Speaker 1: a few locks of hair.
Speaker 2: I don't know why.
Speaker 1: I'd like maybe to make Victorian morning jewelry. I don't know,
Speaker 1: but he was buried, not cremated, and I thought maybe
Speaker 1: it'd be a good way to kind of see the world.
Speaker 1: And so when we went to Disneyland, I put a
Speaker 1: hair on the lawn near the flowers at the entrance Disney.
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. It was literally one hair.
Speaker 1: I know he was like it was probably like three.
Speaker 1: I know people like dump straight up ashes all the
Speaker 1: time in the Haunted Mansion. Let's not do that, but
Speaker 1: you know, I had a lock of hair.
Speaker 4: It.
Speaker 1: I just think it's kind of fun to think a
Speaker 1: little part of my pop is in the welcome area,
Speaker 1: just seeing happy faces come in. We're not even a
Speaker 1: big Disney family, but it was just like, this seems
Speaker 1: like a fun spot. And you know, I like to
Speaker 1: think that a fungus probably broke the hair down and
Speaker 1: fed a plant those nutrients, and then a bug ate
Speaker 1: the plant juice, and then a bird ate the bug,
Speaker 1: And now maybe a part of my pop is perched
Speaker 1: on the top of thunder Mountain Railroad, just preening its feathers.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: My point is, we're all just a bunch of legos,
Speaker 1: and what a shame to glue a lego sculpture in place.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: The beauty is that molecules and atoms and legos can
Speaker 1: become so many things. So I guess cherish what you
Speaker 1: are right now and have some adventures while you can,
Speaker 1: you know, for yourself, for curiousness, and for me. So
Speaker 1: this is kind of a bittersweet conclusion to the era
Speaker 1: of encores. Thank you for being here with us, with
Speaker 1: my family with an awkwardly earnest Internet dad. Also thank
Speaker 1: you Aaron Talbert Shannon Feltis Body Dutch for admitting the
Speaker 1: Ologies podcast Facebook group. Thank you Kelly R. Dwyer for
Speaker 1: maintaining the web page. Susan Hale also updates it and
Speaker 1: does so much more. There's going to be more links
Speaker 1: up at Alleyward dot com, slash Ologies slash Thano twenty
Speaker 1: twenty two. Thank you Noel Dilworth for scheduling and so
Speaker 1: much more. Thank you Emily White of the Wordery makes
Speaker 1: our professional transcripts. Ala Patten helps bleep them. Those are
Speaker 1: up for free at alleywoard dot com slash Ologies extras
Speaker 1: or at the link in the show notes. We have
Speaker 1: kid friendly all ages shortened episodes called smologies in the
Speaker 1: feed you can download for family road trips. There's more
Speaker 1: at alleywoard dot com Smologies. Thank you Mercedes Maitland and
Speaker 1: zegredviguz Thomas of Mindjam Media for working so hard on those.
Speaker 1: Nick Thorburn of the band Islands made the theme music
Speaker 1: and you just thank you ever to lead editor Main Squeeze,
Speaker 1: and someone that was by my side every moment of this,
Speaker 1: by my dad's side for the toughest days, physically helping
Speaker 1: him out of bed, and who my dad called his
Speaker 1: guardian angel, Chered Sleeper, who also happens to be legally
Speaker 1: married to me and is a truly magical rainbow being.
Speaker 1: As you go about your days, just remember that nothing
Speaker 1: is permanent, not the sun, not the moon, not anyone
Speaker 1: or anything.
Speaker 2: That's ever lived.
Speaker 1: So the best we can do is just live a
Speaker 1: life of love and have an easy the exit, and
Speaker 1: if you get those, you're pretty lucky.
Speaker 2: Love you lots, Bye bye.
Speaker 1: The aversion the first apresibs as the first