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Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and welcome to being Frank. We're the only
Speaker 1: way to be is Frank. I'm your host, Frank Lebono,
Speaker 1: and I'd like to thank you for joining us on
Speaker 1: what we like to call the Intelligent Conversation Podcast, where
Speaker 1: no conversation is out of bounds in all points of
Speaker 1: view are welcome. As you know, we record live to tape.
Speaker 1: I give you the date so you have some relevance
Speaker 1: and context. It is the fourth of August, our first
Speaker 1: program for the month of August. You know, we think
Speaker 1: of cancel culture as a modern phenomenon, but in fact
Speaker 1: it's been around for a very long time and affected
Speaker 1: artists as diverse as Wagner, Stravinsky, Michael Jackson, John Lennon
Speaker 1: and many others. Of course, with the changes brought on
Speaker 1: by the miracle that is the Internet, today's reactions can
Speaker 1: be seen as more immediate, universal, and particularly visceral. So
Speaker 1: how do we separate the art we love and the
Speaker 1: artist we have come to disrespect? And should we?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 1: As times has some intelligent conversation on the subject with
Speaker 1: one of our favorite guests here on Being Frank. He's
Speaker 1: a composer, musician, educator, and jazz historian. Welcome back to
Speaker 1: Being Frank, Eric de Vito.
Speaker 2: How's it going, Frank, Thanks for having me back. Always
Speaker 2: a pleasure to be here on your paddast and.
Speaker 1: It's always a pleasure to have you Eric. Your shows
Speaker 1: are always so intelligent. You do your research and help
Speaker 1: me out with mine as well, and I think people
Speaker 1: really appreciate that. We've always gotten very good feedback for
Speaker 1: your performances, and I'm sure we will with this one
Speaker 1: because it's another interesting topic, which brings me to my
Speaker 1: first question is you know, we spoke of this weeks
Speaker 1: ago in timing wise, et cetera. We had to kind
Speaker 1: of put it off till today. But what gave to
Speaker 1: the original germ of the idea that this was a
Speaker 1: topic worth talking about?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so cancel culture. You know, obviously it's a hot topic.
Speaker 2: It's a I feel like it's very you know, like
Speaker 2: you mentioned in your in your intro, it's not something
Speaker 2: that's totally new to the current climate, but I feel
Speaker 2: like it's very, very hot right now and it's used
Speaker 2: very often. I find it sometimes, you know, it's like
Speaker 2: the equivalent of a boycott, I feel like, but towards
Speaker 2: individuals or their art, and I find my views on
Speaker 2: it mixed often, you know, I think as a musician
Speaker 2: and an artist, I'm inherently against it because I feel
Speaker 2: I always like to put art, you know, the art
Speaker 2: that someone creates is is kind of transcendent of who
Speaker 2: they are as a person. But it's very hard to
Speaker 2: separate the person, you know. I think that in the
Speaker 2: current climate of social media where and celebrity obsessiveness, it's
Speaker 2: more it's more I don't know if I want to
Speaker 2: say favorable, but it's kind of more common in this
Speaker 2: kind of culture where we're so interested in the personal
Speaker 2: lives of people, whereas back you know, historically we probably
Speaker 2: wouldn't have known or know quite as much about that
Speaker 2: person as you know, the Internet and social media lets
Speaker 2: us now. But I also think, you know, there's a
Speaker 2: historical context that we sometimes, you know, struggle with where
Speaker 2: we want to hold somebody accountable for something that maybe
Speaker 2: was not viewed quite in the same light today as
Speaker 2: when it might have happened, and so that creates some
Speaker 2: differences too, right, like certain artists today who you know,
Speaker 2: I know we're going to get into. But just an example,
Speaker 2: looking at you know, everybody, I'm sure as following the P.
Speaker 2: Diddy trial that has to exist today, so we have
Speaker 2: a very different view on it. Whereas had that happened
Speaker 2: during Wagner's time, it might have not been we might
Speaker 2: not judge it the same today. But some people want
Speaker 2: to do that, and so I think it creates a
Speaker 2: lot of controversy and a lot of different opinions. And
Speaker 2: I find myself going back and forth on it. And
Speaker 2: I was actually having a conversation with my wife last night.
Speaker 2: I always kind of go over our podcast with her
Speaker 2: over a glass of wine, and I found my you know,
Speaker 2: she was making some I always ask her to be
Speaker 2: like the Devil's advocate about it, and she was like
Speaker 2: making some good points, and I was like, you know what,
Speaker 2: that's a good point, I wonder maybe. So I find
Speaker 2: that my views on it are kind of frequently shifting
Speaker 2: and are less concrete. I find it to be a
Speaker 2: little more situational. But the one thing I always agree
Speaker 2: on is people are fallible, right, nobody's infallible, and people
Speaker 2: create art and I hope that continues right with the
Speaker 2: modern AI. So you know, that's a whole different rabbit
Speaker 2: hole we could do another show on. But I always
Speaker 2: try to remind myself that people are not perfect, they're fallible,
Speaker 2: and so if we're going to judge their art on that,
Speaker 2: then you're always gonna find there's always going to be
Speaker 2: something we don't like. But as an artist, I try
Speaker 2: to let somebody's arts, you know, rise above who they
Speaker 2: were as a person. And that's my own belief. But
Speaker 2: I'm sure that there is if I sit and examine
Speaker 2: it long enough, I might find some situations where I
Speaker 2: might have trouble removing the art from the artist, depending
Speaker 2: on the situation and how personal it might be to me.
Speaker 2: So that's kind of where I am on I think
Speaker 2: it's a really great topic and I think there's a
Speaker 2: lot of opinions on it, and I think it's good
Speaker 2: to explore it because opinions change. I don't want to
Speaker 2: have a concrete opinion on it. I think that my
Speaker 2: mind can be changed a lot, and when different things
Speaker 2: are brought to light, well.
Speaker 1: You know, that's why we call it intelligent conversation. Eric,
Speaker 1: And seriously, I'm not being trite. That's what we want
Speaker 1: to have and that's what we're having now. As you mentioned,
Speaker 1: the worthy time, and we're going to develop a lot
Speaker 1: of the themes that you mentioned, you know, the connection
Speaker 1: between artists and art and the changing technology, particularly the Internet.
Speaker 1: As I mentioned, things happened so quickly, and there's an
Speaker 1: anonymity of it all which can make people more vicious
Speaker 1: and more visceral. We'll develop those themes. But before that,
Speaker 1: you mentioned a little bit of historic context. Again, we
Speaker 1: think of it modern terms again, because twenty four hour
Speaker 1: news cycle, et cetera, were barraged with information quite frankly
Speaker 1: all the time. That wasn't necessarily the case. However, there
Speaker 1: was still they may have called it that cancel culture.
Speaker 1: There is a kind of a historic timeline of it.
Speaker 1: If you could give us a little bit of context,
Speaker 1: like you mentioned Wagner and Stravinsky, tell us a little
Speaker 1: bit about you know, some of the people from the
Speaker 1: early part of the twentieth and nineteenth centuries.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think Wagner is one of the
Speaker 2: most famous famous examples because he was an open anti Semite,
Speaker 2: you know, and he had ideological ties to Nazi Germany.
Speaker 2: You know, and if you ask any musician you know,
Speaker 2: who's one of the greatest German opera composers is Wagner?
Speaker 2: You know, so his music is undeniably historically significant and great.
Speaker 2: You know. Now if you decide so, then the question
Speaker 2: becomes like, do we celebrate his music or because he
Speaker 2: was you know, an anti Semite and openly uh, you know,
Speaker 2: tied to Nazi Germany, do we then not support that?
Speaker 2: Do we? And you know, and then it depends how
Speaker 2: you look at it. Me personally, I can't all of
Speaker 2: a sudden convince myself that Wagner's music is now no
Speaker 2: longer good because I have to ask myself, does who
Speaker 2: he was as a person change how his music touches
Speaker 2: me and makes me feel?
Speaker 4: To me?
Speaker 1: Fair question? And that's and that's a fair question.
Speaker 2: But you know, maybe somebody who was more affected, you know,
Speaker 2: maybe somebody who was part of the Holocaust or had
Speaker 2: a relative. Maybe it's not that they Maybe it's not
Speaker 2: so much the way I'm looking at that, they don't
Speaker 2: they don't acknowledge the music's great, but they can't bring
Speaker 2: themselves to connect with somebody. And I get that, you know,
Speaker 2: And I think I think I had a little more
Speaker 2: trouble relating to that point of it, because I always
Speaker 2: used to say, like, like, you know, if you like
Speaker 2: their music once, how could you not like? But I
Speaker 2: do understand that maybe that there's more of a personal
Speaker 2: connection there. It could just be harder from a moral
Speaker 2: you know thing. But you know, whatever your feeling's on it,
Speaker 2: Wagner's operas are historically significant. There's some of the greatest operas.
Speaker 2: They're some of the most complex operas. Of course. I
Speaker 2: mean some people find them exhausting, you know, in terms
Speaker 2: of his opera cycles, but they're you know, a standard,
Speaker 2: and they are so important. So my whole issue is,
Speaker 2: whatever your views on Wagner are. I mean, obviously that's
Speaker 2: terrible that he was in an open antisemi Like, no,
Speaker 2: I don't think anybody's condoning that. But I'm not sure
Speaker 2: i'd want to array historically what he did. I'm not
Speaker 2: sure i'd want to, you know, do the equivalent of
Speaker 2: tearing down a statue of his music, because I think
Speaker 2: that's not I'm not sure that's doing the world and
Speaker 2: he favors. I think it's helping people not feel like that,
Speaker 2: you know. I always say to people you can just
Speaker 2: not listen to it. If you don't enjoy it, don't
Speaker 2: listen to it. There's plenty and I get that. I'm
Speaker 2: personally where I'm at in the point of my life
Speaker 2: right now. I'm not in favor of historically erasing anything,
Speaker 2: even things that are are you know, looked at as
Speaker 2: being you know, inequitable, or things that caused harm. To me,
Speaker 2: just the fact that they're part of history is worth studying,
Speaker 2: you know, whether it's worth studying and then learning why
Speaker 2: the person associated with that was a problem. But to
Speaker 2: erase it, to me, I'm just not in favor of that.
Speaker 2: I know some people are, and I don't, you know,
Speaker 2: and maybe my mind might change on that.
Speaker 1: Well did you see it? I might just jump in
Speaker 1: because I think it's a really salient point right right here,
Speaker 1: And it was a question I had for further down
Speaker 1: in our conversation, but it's relative now. So in other words,
Speaker 1: do you see it as another form of censorship? Is
Speaker 1: that a fair analogy?
Speaker 2: I think so. I think it becomes a cultural pressure
Speaker 2: to censor. I mean, you know, the bottom line is,
Speaker 2: how do you you know when you want to cancel something?
Speaker 2: What do you do? Right? Do you want it to
Speaker 2: become unavailable. I'm not sure people are, you know, you know,
Speaker 2: if it becomes unpopular, then you know, it's a harder
Speaker 2: time now because we're not dealing with record labels and things.
Speaker 2: You know, everybody everything's streaming, so it's a lot easier
Speaker 2: to kind of put things out there. But let's take
Speaker 2: it like we're on a radio station right now. Let's
Speaker 2: go back a decade or two when everything came through
Speaker 2: the radio, right for the most part, it was very easy.
Speaker 2: If there was a political pressure to tell the radio
Speaker 2: station would just be told, hey, our spot, we're going
Speaker 2: to lose our sponsors, we're not playing this person's music, right,
Speaker 2: and that could kind of you know, you can still
Speaker 2: go out and buy their CDs and stuff maybe, but
Speaker 2: that really put a pressure on it. Whereas today, I
Speaker 2: don't think that's so easy. You know, now it's people
Speaker 2: almost it's like a boycott, you know. And I equated
Speaker 2: I was saying this to my wife, did they I
Speaker 2: equate it to like when people boycotted bud Light a
Speaker 2: couple of years ago. You know, if you don't if
Speaker 2: you like bud Light, you're not going to pretend you
Speaker 2: don't like it anymore. You might not agree with the
Speaker 2: message of the company, but you're not going to all
Speaker 2: of a sudden be like bud Light doesn't taste good
Speaker 2: to me anymore. So I could never decide that Wagner
Speaker 2: doesn't sound good and it doesn't move me. So but
Speaker 2: maybe if these people have an issue and they want
Speaker 2: to boycott the product, then okay, And then of course
Speaker 2: that comes with That's where social media takes a big part,
Speaker 2: is now where you might have quietly boycotted it. And
Speaker 2: by the way, that's the kind of when I am
Speaker 2: against something, I quietly do it myself. I don't try
Speaker 2: to pressure other people to do it, because they need
Speaker 2: to make their own decisions. But I think a big
Speaker 2: part of cante culture is trying to get people on
Speaker 2: your team, and I think that ties into social media
Speaker 2: and insecurity and all this other stuff that I have
Speaker 2: a problem with social media, which is why I'm kind
Speaker 2: of not on and so much anymore. But to me,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't like, you know, maybe I want to inform
Speaker 2: people like, hey, did you know not Wagner was an
Speaker 2: anti sound Sure, I think everybody should know that information,
Speaker 2: But I'm not going to go around and tell people
Speaker 2: what I think they should listen to or what beer
Speaker 2: they should drink. I don't think that's my place, and
Speaker 2: I don't think that, you know, I think that creates
Speaker 2: a lot of polarization and division. And the bottom line is,
Speaker 2: you know, those companies don't really care about your views.
Speaker 2: All they care about is their dollars. And so to me,
Speaker 2: it's not authentic. Anyways, when when when they lose, drop
Speaker 2: the sponsor whatever, they're not really doing that because they
Speaker 2: believe in whatever you're trying to do. They just they
Speaker 2: just want your money back, so they're going to do it.
Speaker 2: So to me, it's inauthentic.
Speaker 1: Anyways, I want to talk a little bit more about
Speaker 1: the involvement of social media because that has changed everything
Speaker 1: in so many ways, and including here. But you mentioned
Speaker 1: and because there are others, and you're you're a jazz historian,
Speaker 1: so let's get in your wheelhouse. Miles Davis. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: Miles is a classic. We give us a little more
Speaker 1: detail about that situation.
Speaker 2: Sure, you know, Miles is a great example because he
Speaker 2: wasn't shy about his view. You know, he was an
Speaker 2: extreme misogynist. He's abusive towards women. You know, he had
Speaker 2: he had a lot of issues in his own life
Speaker 2: that he took out in his you know, his relationships
Speaker 2: with other people. But he was known as being you know,
Speaker 2: abusive person obviously, you know, substance abuse issues, but very
Speaker 2: misogynistic and that also you know, pretty racist, you know,
Speaker 2: in terms of that was not really a fan of
Speaker 2: white you know, white people at all. Obviously, he had
Speaker 2: his own reasons for the racism he he encountered and
Speaker 2: dealt with or perceived. But you know, there are some
Speaker 2: people that think Miles Davis is a terrible person. You know,
Speaker 2: I didn't know him personally, but I've done a lot
Speaker 2: of reading on him and study on him, and I
Speaker 2: pretty much agree. I don't think he was the nicest person.
Speaker 2: I don't disagree with any of those things about him.
Speaker 2: I am so I grew up and learned jazz through
Speaker 2: Miles Davis's music. I'm so interconnected with it, and I
Speaker 2: learned about that music through him, maybe more than anybody
Speaker 2: else through him music. So I can never really, I
Speaker 2: could never really stop, you know, appreciating his music. I
Speaker 2: just acknowledge that he was an a hole, you know,
Speaker 2: in many people's views, and that I probably wouldn't like
Speaker 2: him as a person. But to me, I'm I'm able
Speaker 2: to totally separate it from his art. But that's me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's funny. I was gonna jump in because
Speaker 1: that was one of my questions when that was revealed
Speaker 1: to you. And I'm assuming when you first listen to
Speaker 1: someone's that the first thing you gravitate towards what are
Speaker 1: they like as a person, what's their personality? Generally that
Speaker 1: comes a little bit later on as you delve more
Speaker 1: into their music and fair enough into their lives as
Speaker 1: you get more interested. But I was wondering, and it
Speaker 1: kind of answered it, but you can develop it a
Speaker 1: little bit more upon learning that. Did you listen for
Speaker 1: it in your music at or did you hear anything
Speaker 1: that kind of changed your perception?
Speaker 2: Well, yes and no. So and this was another great
Speaker 2: point that came up when I was having my kind
Speaker 2: of pre show conversation with my wife. You know, she
Speaker 2: said to me, well, don't you doesn't knowing about the
Speaker 2: artist's life. Isn't that an integral part of appreciating the art?
Speaker 2: And I'm thinking, yeah, absolutely, you know, like this's the
Speaker 2: reason we study composers, and the more you know about
Speaker 2: their life and their struggles, the more you appreciate the
Speaker 2: art they did. So it's kind of hard because it's
Speaker 2: like also knowing, you know, it makes me think that
Speaker 2: the music that these people produced. You know, let's take
Speaker 2: Miles Davis, he had to be the person he was
Speaker 2: to make that music, whether it was a you know,
Speaker 2: he was dealing with certain issues that made him become
Speaker 2: that way, and then the result artistically was this music.
Speaker 2: So we can't deny or separate that. And yes, I
Speaker 2: think knowing about that is more important to appreciating the art, right, So, yes,
Speaker 2: I want to know. As I found more of those
Speaker 2: things out, I became, I found Miles Davis more interesting
Speaker 2: as a person. You know. That doesn't mean I condone
Speaker 2: any of his behavior or anything, but I just never
Speaker 2: felt like it was my place or any of our
Speaker 2: places to you know, publicly judge him on that. And
Speaker 2: to me, what a loss. If I had knew that
Speaker 2: first maybe and then decided or I was of the
Speaker 2: you know, persuasion that well, now I'm not gonna explore
Speaker 2: his art because I don't like him as a person.
Speaker 2: To me, that would be a tremendous loss. I mean,
Speaker 2: have greatly affected my life in terms of, you know,
Speaker 2: learning about jazz music. But then I think about all
Speaker 2: other people that do that and what they might be
Speaker 2: missing out on. But you know, listen, that's me. And
Speaker 2: maybe somebody can't bring themselves to you know, maybe somebody
Speaker 2: was a victim of abuse or something and they can't
Speaker 2: bring themselves to listen to or appreciate the art of
Speaker 2: somebody who did. And I get that, and I respect that,
Speaker 2: But I think that we all should know as much
Speaker 2: as we can about the composers and the artists that
Speaker 2: we listen to, because it only enhances and deepens our
Speaker 2: appreciation from the art. Now, whether or not we need
Speaker 2: to know that right away, maybe maybe the litmus test
Speaker 2: is listen to something, first, decide if you like it,
Speaker 2: if it touches you in any way, and then decide
Speaker 2: would you still feel the same way knowing X, Y
Speaker 2: and Z. Maybe that's a better way to go about it.
Speaker 2: What I'm not a fan of is I feel like
Speaker 2: sometimes in today's modern cancel culture, we are actually like
Speaker 2: dishonest with ourselves. We actually convince ourselves that we don't
Speaker 2: like something. And I feel like, is it that you
Speaker 2: don't like it or is it that you are afraid
Speaker 2: people are gonna think that you support the behavior of
Speaker 2: this person, are you you know, like, if Miles Davis
Speaker 2: or Wagner was a chef and made an amazing meal,
Speaker 2: would you pretend that it didn't taste good? Would it
Speaker 2: really stop tasting good to you? Or is it more
Speaker 2: of a moral thing you just can't bring yourself to
Speaker 2: eat it? And to me, those are two different things.
Speaker 1: Okay, you know interesting, Well, let's you mentioned also, and
Speaker 1: you cannot deny how much of the Internet it's affected things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's terrible.
Speaker 1: We don't know if that's.
Speaker 2: In talk coming. I'm turning into my old man mode.
Speaker 2: Like my kids and my wife are always like stopping
Speaker 2: it's it's terrible, like and like the internet's great, and
Speaker 2: guess what, it's terrible. It's terrible since I've like scaled
Speaker 2: back on it in terms of, you know, the internet
Speaker 2: is great for doing research and connecting to people. But
Speaker 2: the social media thing, man, it's terrible. And we're all
Speaker 2: going to convince ourselves, those of us that have jobs
Speaker 2: in it. It's useful, but it's terrible. It's definitely created
Speaker 2: way more terribleness whatever the right phrase for that is
Speaker 2: than goodness. In my opinion, and I think you just
Speaker 2: see that through people use it as it means to
Speaker 2: like people. If people want to boycott something, they need
Speaker 2: validation that everybody feels the same way they do, and
Speaker 2: so they get that validation through social media, and it's
Speaker 2: the algorithms are there to make sure they connect with
Speaker 2: people who agree with them. So it's fake anyways. So man,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't want to bore your listeners with that,
Speaker 2: but I got a huge problem with all that, and
Speaker 2: I just think it makes it makes everything so unauthentic.
Speaker 2: It brings things to light. It pretends to make such
Speaker 2: a national spectacle that is something that it's not. It
Speaker 2: connects people in this vacuum and this echo chamber where
Speaker 2: they think that their opinions are so universal, but they're not. Like,
Speaker 2: I just took a road trip to the Midwest. Man.
Speaker 2: It was a little off topic, and you know, if
Speaker 2: I sat home all the time on social media, I
Speaker 2: would think that everybody agreed with my opinions in the world,
Speaker 2: and because I have so much people and but I
Speaker 2: just went to the Midwest, and like, dude, it's totally different.
Speaker 2: People are totally different, and they're not very much like
Speaker 2: a lot of us. You know, a lot of people
Speaker 2: in New York are, and that's cool. They shouldn't be.
Speaker 2: But if you, if you don't like get off social
Speaker 2: media and go like connect with people, you just are
Speaker 2: like fed this lie where you're just connected with people
Speaker 2: that are like pro you know, there's an algorithm to
Speaker 2: make you think that that is the majority of what's happening.
Speaker 2: So I think it's really bad for free, free thought
Speaker 2: and stuff. But anyways, that's that's my rant on that.
Speaker 1: Well, it's in a roundabout way. It's relative to the
Speaker 1: question that I have, and because it feeds the cult
Speaker 1: of celebrity, yeah, I mean you can know just about
Speaker 1: everything about everybody just about instantly, and that seems to
Speaker 1: be very important to people. Do you think that helps
Speaker 1: to produce this culture of if I don't like you,
Speaker 1: you've got to be gone. In other words, and yeah, man, that's.
Speaker 2: It right there. You just should put that on a
Speaker 2: T shirt. If I don't like it, it's gotta be gone.
Speaker 2: That to me, that's something like my five year old
Speaker 2: daughter thinks, and we've become like why do adults think
Speaker 2: that way? I think that's a really like arrested development.
Speaker 2: Insecure view man, like, Okay, don't like something, have enough
Speaker 2: self worth that you can still associate and be friends
Speaker 2: with people that might not see it that way. Why
Speaker 2: does everybody have to be on your team and in
Speaker 2: your camp for you to feel okay about your opinions?
Speaker 2: I think that's just like a product of broken society, man,
Speaker 2: People that just have a problem with their own self
Speaker 2: worth and so they need that validation and they don't
Speaker 2: even get it in reality. They get it on social media,
Speaker 2: where they just get to seek out those that might
Speaker 2: not be the majority of people that they work and
Speaker 2: live with. They're just like finding these groups of people
Speaker 2: online to agree with that. I think that's like dangerous man.
Speaker 1: You know, we've talked a lot about the consumer. What
Speaker 1: about the producers, if you will, the artists themselves. What
Speaker 1: responsibility do they have, if any, to fostering a positive
Speaker 1: social climate? Is I guess if that's not in their wheelhouse?
Speaker 1: Is that not? In other words, do they bear any
Speaker 1: responsibility for their message? Should they? Is it reasonable for
Speaker 1: them to expect, For example, if I do a controversial show,
Speaker 1: it's reasonable for me to expect not everybody's going to
Speaker 1: like it, and some people are going to be downright, pod,
Speaker 1: But I have to be prepared to accept that. So
Speaker 1: you know, what's an artist's responsibility? Then excuse me with
Speaker 1: that in mind, with the idea that if they put
Speaker 1: controversial things out, it's going to produce a visceral reaction.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well so it's a really good question, right. I
Speaker 2: think the fact that we've become so connected to celebrity
Speaker 2: culture makes it more difficult. Right, there's no celebrities don't
Speaker 2: really have privacy as much as you know, and we
Speaker 2: know too much about people, so it's like we gotta
Speaker 2: let time. We don't get let time kind of erase
Speaker 2: some of that, you know. I think about like Michael Jackson, Right,
Speaker 2: Michael Jackson is, let's talk about controversy. He was going
Speaker 2: through this cancel culture stuff back in the nineties. Man,
Speaker 2: you don't remember that. But the thing is, we didn't
Speaker 2: have the Internet, and people were outrage. He was the
Speaker 2: butt of every late night talk show almost to a
Speaker 2: point where it was you almost think it like they
Speaker 2: were condoning it. Right. It was like, ah, let's make
Speaker 2: a joke about Michael Jackson and little kids, right, And
Speaker 2: you didn't really see anybody stop listening it was more about, oh, okay,
Speaker 2: are we going to acknowledge this, because that in itself
Speaker 2: was like a big deal back then we're gonna acknowledge
Speaker 2: this really bad thing. You know, some people condoned it
Speaker 2: because of how Michael Jackson was raised and the issues
Speaker 2: he went through and his dad and all that, and
Speaker 2: that's fair enough. But there's nobody that's gonna agree. And
Speaker 2: then you know, some people will say, oh, you know,
Speaker 2: he was acquitted and this never happened, and blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: But I think the public opinion kind of I think
Speaker 2: it took time. You know, enough time has passed that
Speaker 2: people made their decisions either made peace with it, decided no,
Speaker 2: And enough time has passed that Michael Jackson's artistic legacy,
Speaker 2: in my opinion, has outweighed the negative effects of his
Speaker 2: social personal behavior. I think that just takes time. I
Speaker 2: think that, and you know, I'm looking at current people
Speaker 2: like r Kelly, which isn't that current anymore. For P
Speaker 2: Diddy is like the big one right now. I don't
Speaker 2: know if what they did is going to to be
Speaker 2: able to be uh overlooked the same way. I know
Speaker 2: that right now we're too close to it because it's current,
Speaker 2: So I think you're gonna have to give it a
Speaker 2: generation to see, like like the next generation to people.
Speaker 2: They won't really know who these artists were personally, so
Speaker 2: that might not be something that they're bothered with. You know,
Speaker 2: my wife had made a point. She works, you know,
Speaker 2: she's a nurse, and a lot of the young nurses
Speaker 2: that she's in charge of they don't know much about
Speaker 2: Michael Jackson. They have no idea about his controversial past.
Speaker 2: And that's only like a generation later. You know. I'm
Speaker 2: talking about people that are like in their twenties. So
Speaker 2: I think certain things because they're happening right now, they
Speaker 2: make it too hard for us to kind of condone.
Speaker 2: But I think you gotta see what's gonna happen to
Speaker 2: generation from now, and are these musicians music gonna be
Speaker 2: great enough to withstand the taper like Michael jack brought
Speaker 2: hands down. Michael Jackson's Music's never going away. It's too good. Sorry,
Speaker 2: But is R Kelly and P Diddy? I don't know.
Speaker 2: That's not my wheelhouse. So I'm not the best expert personally.
Speaker 2: I don't know, but maybe I'm totally wrong. What I
Speaker 2: can tell you is a generation from now, people are
Speaker 2: gonna not you know, that their personal behavior and the
Speaker 2: thing that makes people want to boycott them, it's not
Speaker 2: gonna be as close to the forefront because it's gonna
Speaker 2: be a generation later. So if their music happens to
Speaker 2: be good enough to withstand the test of time, I
Speaker 2: think then they'll be less focused on their behavior, just
Speaker 2: like you know, how many people know that Wagner was
Speaker 2: an anti semi ter. How many people know that, you know,
Speaker 2: Stravinsky had depictions of, you know, very culturally inappropriate things
Speaker 2: or misogynistic things. It's like history kind of erases that.
Speaker 2: A lot of that gets filtered out through history, but
Speaker 2: when it's up close and personal. The only problem is
Speaker 2: today things are up close and are magnified times a
Speaker 2: thousand because it's so social media and celebrity obsessiveness than
Speaker 2: they were. Dirk. You know, on our last show we
Speaker 2: talked about when we were talking about who is the
Speaker 2: composer Tchaikowski and and his being a homosexual and how
Speaker 2: taboo that was, But he wasn't. He wasn't living in
Speaker 2: a day where he had a social media page and
Speaker 2: everybody could google sim so he was able to privately
Speaker 2: live that life for the most part, whereas today that's
Speaker 2: not really an option.
Speaker 1: You know, I want to talk about you know, and
Speaker 1: people forget, and you mentioned over the course of time
Speaker 1: in another legend, people forget it for very in what
Speaker 1: we see. And I think it's also appropriate to how
Speaker 1: morals change over time, and you hinted it that judging
Speaker 1: now with with morals from the past. Anyway, Elvis Presley
Speaker 1: another classic example. I think people forget. People were canceling
Speaker 1: him in their own kind of way because of all
Speaker 1: his quote unquote filthy dance moves and all this. So
Speaker 1: there's stuff I think people forget that. Yeah, he was
Speaker 1: exposed to that also we think it almost kind of
Speaker 1: funny now, but it was very real and it's stay
Speaker 1: addressed that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very controversial. And I always teach my students, you know,
Speaker 2: we do our composers or musicians of the week, and
Speaker 2: we always do Elvis, and I always talk about, you know,
Speaker 2: his thing on the Ed Sullivan Show where the cameras
Speaker 2: would only film him from the neck up or the
Speaker 2: waist up. And I don't know if anybody watched the
Speaker 2: movie on Elvis, it's pretty brilliant. It's not one hundred
Speaker 2: percent accurate. But it's a lot of interesting things. And
Speaker 2: they talk about just how controversial his dancing more than
Speaker 2: anything else was, especially when he performed in the South
Speaker 2: and more conservative you know places, how people really boycotted them.
Speaker 2: At the bottom line is they couldn't you know, the
Speaker 2: younger generation they were, they were really thirsty for something
Speaker 2: that was much more rebellious. You know, there's a couple
Speaker 2: issues around Elvis. He met his wife. You know, it
Speaker 2: depends on how you look at it. He met his
Speaker 2: wife when she was fourteen years old, you know, he
Speaker 2: had you know, you could look at that, and you know,
Speaker 2: that's the whole Jerry D. Lewis thing. You could you
Speaker 2: could look at that aspect of his behavior, or you
Speaker 2: could say, well that was a different time, you know,
Speaker 2: or you can look at how you know, he was
Speaker 2: abusive and he had periods where, you know where he
Speaker 2: dealt with domestic abuse obviously substance abuse. So you can
Speaker 2: like pick what you want to have a problem with Elvis.
Speaker 2: You know, some people get really bent out of shape
Speaker 2: about Elvis's ties to to rock and roll, right because
Speaker 2: I make it a big deal to when I teach
Speaker 2: about Elvis, I always first teach about Chuck Berry because
Speaker 2: Chuck Berry was the father of rock and roll, but
Speaker 2: most people think Elvis because he's the king of rock
Speaker 2: and roll, and Elvis is not. You know, rock and
Speaker 2: roll came from the blues, an African American musical tradition,
Speaker 2: and I think a lot of people got bent out
Speaker 2: of shape that he sort of it sort of becomes
Speaker 2: more more affiliated with, you know, a white person. So
Speaker 2: I always kind of make make sure that my students
Speaker 2: know why Chuck Berry created the rock and roll sound,
Speaker 2: but I don't diminish Elvis's importance. I always say, well,
Speaker 2: you know, it was Elvis's persona and charisma and also
Speaker 2: you know, the public perception that let him take this
Speaker 2: message and make it so well known, you know, just
Speaker 2: like the radio did with Duke Ellington for jazz. But
Speaker 2: Elvis also, you know, wasn't trying to exploit the African
Speaker 2: American music that I think in some ways, you know,
Speaker 2: was happening like in the swing period where they kind
Speaker 2: of we talked about that, where they kind of tried
Speaker 2: to make jazz more white sounding and more digestible for
Speaker 2: a white audience. For you know, that that was about
Speaker 2: commercial record sales, Elvis was putting sales through the roof,
Speaker 2: but he was very connected to the African American part
Speaker 2: of it. I mean, they really depicted that well in
Speaker 2: the movie. I thought, so, I don't think it was
Speaker 2: that so much. But people might have a problem with that.
Speaker 2: You know, people want to say, why, why why does
Speaker 2: Elvis get to be the you know, the success he
Speaker 2: was as to Chuck Berry, And you know, that's a
Speaker 2: product of the time period and the racism of culture
Speaker 2: and all of those things that. But so it's kind
Speaker 2: of like with Elvis pick you know, you pick your
Speaker 2: pick what you want don't want to like. But I
Speaker 2: think part of Elvis's thing is he didn't really like
Speaker 2: you know, he he knew that he had issues, he
Speaker 2: knew that he was human, and he had lots of
Speaker 2: ups and downs and dark periods. And I think that's
Speaker 2: kind of what made his music.
Speaker 1: It can make them more relatable to all of us.
Speaker 2: We love we love stories where people falling. You know.
Speaker 2: Also it made his music go through these different shifts
Speaker 2: and periods. You know, you listen to listen to Elvis
Speaker 2: to his early blues influenced stuff, and then you listen
Speaker 2: to when he was older and you know, maybe wiser.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I want to say more mature,
Speaker 2: but he went through it. He lived a life and
Speaker 2: then you hear him the way he sings a ballad
Speaker 2: and it's like wow, and you can feel the you know,
Speaker 2: it's like listening to holiday or something. You can feel
Speaker 2: the weight where you know, it wasn't that maybe when
Speaker 2: he was younger it was a different thing. So those
Speaker 2: things all shape his life. Now, do you know, do
Speaker 2: you need to be a misogynist. Do you need to
Speaker 2: be abusive to to do that? No? Right, like people
Speaker 2: always used to think that you need to do heroin
Speaker 2: to play be a great jazz player like Charlie Parker. Right,
Speaker 2: you don't. I think everybody agrees you don't need to
Speaker 2: do that. But people feel like those life experiences give
Speaker 2: them perspective and that comes out in their art. So
Speaker 2: it's an interesting thing. But I don't think man if
Speaker 2: Elvis was doing his thing today, Frank, I think it
Speaker 2: would be a very very different thing. You know, Obviously
Speaker 2: we wouldn't have as much of a problem with his
Speaker 2: dancing and things like that. We're desensitized to that. But
Speaker 2: don't forget, we're desensitized to music like Stravinsky. You know,
Speaker 2: when Stravinsky's music came out, man, people were appalled. They
Speaker 2: were throwing chairs, that's on stage, They walked out. They
Speaker 2: thought that this was like an abomination of classical European
Speaker 2: art music, the dissonances that he used. You know, then
Speaker 2: you listen to free jazz players where people were disgusted
Speaker 2: with the dissonance Ornett Coleman. But man, over time, we've
Speaker 2: just become more tolerable too of that of of that
Speaker 2: kind of dissonance, and it's not as shocking anymore. So
Speaker 2: desensitization is not necessarily a bad thing, because you know,
Speaker 2: jazz music is built on us, you know, accepting and seeing,
Speaker 2: you know, listening to dissonant harmonies that at one point
Speaker 2: man were considered like taboo, right, you know, and even
Speaker 2: blues and rock and roll and all that stuff. So
Speaker 2: I think, you know, sometimes these people do pave the
Speaker 2: way for tolerance, whether it's musically and artistically, or even
Speaker 2: whether it's accepting that they are not perfect but still
Speaker 2: allowing them to create their art.
Speaker 1: Eric one Las's question will take a little break, but
Speaker 1: i'd like to get your opinion on on this before
Speaker 1: if we cancel an artists work. What message are we
Speaker 1: sending and what do we lose if we do?
Speaker 2: It's a great question. I think if you cancel an
Speaker 2: artist's work, we're sending a message that they don't deserve
Speaker 2: to produce art, that their art is not worthy or
Speaker 2: it's not worth us experiencing. And I think that's really
Speaker 2: a little bit presumptuous. I think it's dangerous. I think
Speaker 2: that it's Remember, I'm not talking about bringing up or educating.
Speaker 2: I don't think I'm not talking about ignoring and hiding
Speaker 2: things under the rug. Right. I think everybody should know
Speaker 2: that Wagner was an anti semi. I think everybody should
Speaker 2: know that. Like you need to know history, right, you
Speaker 2: need to be informed. But don't you know when does
Speaker 2: it become manip right? Be informed? The more you know,
Speaker 2: the better. But you should make the decision of if
Speaker 2: if that's something that you still are moved by, and
Speaker 2: think about this, man, do you want to tell somebody
Speaker 2: do you want to take what if there's a criminal
Speaker 2: who wants to write poetry, don't we want to encourage that.
Speaker 2: Don't we want to say, hey, man, maybe it's therapeutic
Speaker 2: write beer poetry. Do you want to paint, make your art.
Speaker 2: You want to make music?
Speaker 1: Who would use they? I mean, you see these programs now.
Speaker 2: Correct, So why are we now deciding that these celebrities
Speaker 2: or whatever they're they should stop making art? Well, I
Speaker 2: think the big thing is because we know that when
Speaker 2: we consume it, we financially support them, right, And I
Speaker 2: think that's where it comes from. So it's not that
Speaker 2: we want their art to go away. We want to
Speaker 2: stop funding their dollars.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: We're afraid that when I stream their music or I
Speaker 2: buy their record, I'm giving them in or their record
Speaker 2: label more motivation to have them continue what they're doing,
Speaker 2: which is going to lead to more them, you know,
Speaker 2: reinforcing that behavior. I'm not sure I really subscribe to that,
Speaker 2: you know, but I just think you got to go
Speaker 2: in there knowing what you know, and you've got to
Speaker 2: decide for yourself. For me, the world loses out when
Speaker 2: there's less art, you know, it does. And for me,
Speaker 2: nothing that somebody does objectively makes their art worse. Now,
Speaker 2: subjectively it might to different people, and that's up to
Speaker 2: those people.
Speaker 1: Interesting, Well, I'm gonna teach you what the questions to
Speaker 1: think about during the break. Okay, the current administration's attempting
Speaker 1: to limit free speech, especially those of dissent. And I
Speaker 1: want to know, do this cancer culture flourish in this
Speaker 1: type of environment? Give it some thought, or audience, give
Speaker 1: it a little bit of thought also, and we'll talk
Speaker 1: about that and a lot more when we come back.
Speaker 1: This is Being Frank. I'm your host, Frank Lebono. My
Speaker 1: very special guest is composing musician and historian Eric Devido.
Speaker 1: Will be right back with more Being Frank right after
Speaker 1: these brief commercial messages. Don't go anywhere yet. This has
Speaker 1: been great.
Speaker 2: Hudson Riverradio dot com. This is Hudson River Radio dot com.
Speaker 4: This is Hudson River Radio dot com. Hudson River Radio
Speaker 4: dot com.
Speaker 2: This is Hudson River Radio dot com.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Being Frank, the Intelligent Conversation Podcast. Thanks
Speaker 1: for sticking with us. Of course, I'm your host, Frank Lebono,
Speaker 1: and our engineer, as always is the mailman, mister Neil Richter.
Speaker 1: You know, we bring our audience to fresh topic just
Speaker 1: about every week. Stream from Hudson River Radio located in
Speaker 1: beautiful at historic Stone Point, New York. But you can
Speaker 1: catch Being Frank anywhere you get your favorite podcasts and
Speaker 1: post Apple, Spotify, Art Radio and all the rest. And
Speaker 1: because every Being Frank is archived, you can listen to
Speaker 1: any of our programs anytime you like. Final link to
Speaker 1: Being Frank on the Hudson River Radio Facebook page or
Speaker 1: at our website Hudson Riverradio dot com. Just click and
Speaker 1: you're there. Okay, back to our conversation with musician, composer, educator,
Speaker 1: and jazz historian mister Eric Davido. Eric, I tease the question,
Speaker 1: which we'll get to in a moment, about the current
Speaker 1: administration's attempt to limit free speech, especially those of dissent.
Speaker 1: But before that, I know you want to make a
Speaker 1: very important point, and I would like you to have
Speaker 1: you make it. And that's you know, the fact that
Speaker 1: you are a teacher and in schools you have to be.
Speaker 1: There has to be a certain level of cultural sensitivity.
Speaker 1: But that also at times can complicate things because of organization.
Speaker 1: What groups do you do? What groups are left out?
Speaker 1: In other words, it's it's kind of and it's certainly
Speaker 1: it's been used against liberals. Woke and wokeism, uh, and
Speaker 1: most of us are proud to be associated with the
Speaker 1: term woke, which means to be aware of others and
Speaker 1: around you. But in some cases is wokeism taken too far?
Speaker 1: Where and you gave the example for example, uh blackface
Speaker 1: Uh in minstrel shows, which are really a part of
Speaker 1: our history. And when we understand the history is it's
Speaker 1: still worth canceling. In other words, it's you hear it
Speaker 1: all the time. We're not supposed to show them. It's
Speaker 1: obviously degrading to Africans Americans, but it is a part
Speaker 1: of our history, so it should be presented in context. Anyway,
Speaker 1: Enough of me rambling, if you would, you know, address
Speaker 1: issues like that as an.
Speaker 2: Artist, Yeah, it's I think it's it's a tough one
Speaker 2: and I think, you know, it's balancing cultural sensitivity versus
Speaker 2: artistic tradition. You know, I think the the the musician
Speaker 2: in me and the researcher in me. You know, I
Speaker 2: always want to know facts first. To me, his the
Speaker 2: history part is important. So, like I mentioned earlier, I
Speaker 2: don't I don't think anything should be erased from history, right,
Speaker 2: So I don't want I don't want the songs or
Speaker 2: even the you know, these very insensitive in today's context.
Speaker 2: You know, there are videos that exist, Uh, I don't
Speaker 2: think those should be erased. Do I think they should
Speaker 2: be replicated for certain age groups? I think that there
Speaker 2: it's important that the historical context is is provided, and
Speaker 2: there are certain age groups that are and are not ready,
Speaker 2: you know, to to know about that. So maybe it's
Speaker 2: you don't you don't You don't teach about that until
Speaker 2: you're dealing with minds that are developmentally ready to understand
Speaker 2: the history behind it. And that's you know, that's unique
Speaker 2: to people and unique to curriculum and unique to teachers
Speaker 2: and what you think. But do I want to see
Speaker 2: you know, songs like Oh Susannah or Turkey in the
Speaker 2: Straw that have origins and black, Do I want to
Speaker 2: see them go away? Of course not, because that's American
Speaker 2: folk music and America is as has had a very
Speaker 2: fractured history, right, That's part of who we are, so
Speaker 2: so are it? So it is its music, you know.
Speaker 2: But without those songs, you wouldn't have, you know, vaudeville,
Speaker 2: and then you wouldn't have jazz, and you wouldn't have
Speaker 2: the blues and guess what, you wouldn't have all the
Speaker 2: current music that we have today. So it's important in there.
Speaker 2: It's a piece of the chain. It's an ugly piece
Speaker 2: of the chain, but it's important and without it, the
Speaker 2: historical chain falls apart. There's links that will be missing. So,
Speaker 2: you know, the context is important. So just like if
Speaker 2: there's a statue that was historical celebrating somebody that in
Speaker 2: today's society we view as bet you know, whether or
Speaker 2: not you want to take it down, Well, maybe that's
Speaker 2: that gets a little you know. With the music, do
Speaker 2: we want to do we want to stop performing it?
Speaker 2: That's not kind of like the equivalent to that. I
Speaker 2: think maybe we do need to recontextualize how we perform it,
Speaker 2: you know, where with a statue it might come with
Speaker 2: a piece of information on it about the person.
Speaker 1: Or replacement in another area that or just educating people,
Speaker 1: Hey did you this person did X, Y and z.
Speaker 2: They were celebrated for doing this, and by the way,
Speaker 2: do we want to diminish the things that they did?
Speaker 2: You know, that's a personal thing too. I'm not I'm
Speaker 2: not gonna weigh in on that because I change my
Speaker 2: opinion about that, you know, depending on the time period
Speaker 2: and the person. But with music, same thing, you know,
Speaker 2: do we want to do we want to leave out
Speaker 2: the musical merits of it that other music was built on.
Speaker 2: You know, I don't think we do, but maybe there
Speaker 2: needs to be added information or contextual information. And I
Speaker 2: like what you said about you know, re you know,
Speaker 2: relocating it, and with with music, that could mean reprogramming it,
Speaker 2: you know, where it's appropriate to what age group is
Speaker 2: going to be appropriate, so that the historical context is appropriate.
Speaker 2: So that's appropriate too. Now do I think that that
Speaker 2: it's overkill? I think, you know, with the current administration,
Speaker 2: we're gonna get a heavy, hot and heavy and political
Speaker 2: expect I'm gonna do so without giving away any of
Speaker 2: my political beliefs listeners, because I like to do that.
Speaker 2: But the bottom line is I constantly swing left to
Speaker 2: right on daily on different issues, and I think everybody
Speaker 2: should and nobody should belong to a political team. But
Speaker 2: that's my own opinion. They're not baseball teams. They're too important.
Speaker 2: And I'm a baseball fan and so I think baseball
Speaker 2: is important too. But I think that do we need
Speaker 2: to uh wait, and now I forgot the the well.
Speaker 1: We're talking about howstration and the Yeah, so we're on
Speaker 1: a very we're.
Speaker 2: On a very certain swing of a pendulum. Okay, now,
Speaker 2: you know, I always try to look at politics. The
Speaker 2: older I get, the more context I have, right, I
Speaker 2: like to do more of a bird's eye view, and
Speaker 2: things are constantly swinging, and most of the time their reaction.
Speaker 2: You know, if you go back in history and you
Speaker 2: see who's been voted in administration, usually things are a
Speaker 2: reaction because people think the people often feel that things
Speaker 2: swung too much in one direction. Right now, I think
Speaker 2: we're in a very kind of we're reacting to what
Speaker 2: a lot of people thought was a very extreme swing people.
Speaker 2: A lot of people were getting really frustrated. I think,
Speaker 2: and B when I say a lot of people, I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, this is not a personal thing. Some of
Speaker 2: it might I might agree with some of it, but
Speaker 2: I think lots of people were being frustrated with a
Speaker 2: very intense amount of cultural sensitivity and inclusion and equity.
Speaker 2: And I don't think anybody would disagree that those things
Speaker 2: are important. But I think a lot of people felt
Speaker 2: that it was it was being it was being swung
Speaker 2: so much that way that it was not even being effective.
Speaker 2: I think they felt like it was out of you know,
Speaker 2: like a it was an optics thing. Only I think
Speaker 2: that frustrate a lot of people because I think a
Speaker 2: lot of art, a lot of logistical things in their life,
Speaker 2: a lot of things. It made things very difficult and frustrating.
Speaker 2: And I so I think what you're seeing and sometimes
Speaker 2: that might be what needs to be done, right, But
Speaker 2: I think what happened is people are reacting to that,
Speaker 2: and so they're kind of going. I feel like we're
Speaker 2: in a period of oh, yeah, well now we're going
Speaker 2: We're going to go back more as kind of like
Speaker 2: an f you maybe and to a certain extent, and
Speaker 2: I just think that's where we are. I'm you know,
Speaker 2: so I think we we shifted very much to the left,
Speaker 2: and I think the mess that's trying to be sent
Speaker 2: by the current administration maybe is guess what, we're gonna
Speaker 2: go away to the right now? And I, you know, ultimately,
Speaker 2: I feel like we should fall in the middle. That's
Speaker 2: where things kind of belong. But I think that unfortunately,
Speaker 2: the only way to get there is when things swing
Speaker 2: too far in each direction. And that's what's kind of
Speaker 2: you know, I feel like the last twenty years of
Speaker 2: politics are just like so much like people cater to
Speaker 2: the the wings instead of the middle. When you sit
Speaker 2: in the middle, You're like, your voice isn't important. Sometimes
Speaker 2: feel like because you know, it's all about the lefts
Speaker 2: and the rights. You know, personally, I feel like sometimes
Speaker 2: the people in the middle, those are the ones who's
Speaker 2: voted for sale, you know, like my votes for sale
Speaker 2: every day. You know, convince me why I should be
Speaker 2: a Republican or a Democrat, because I might not feel
Speaker 2: that way tomorrow.
Speaker 1: I'm registered as an independent. Yeah, for that kind of reason,
Speaker 1: that's challenged another way, that show, another show.
Speaker 2: For that right, I'm a Mets fan that's never going
Speaker 2: to change. But I'm not a political party fan. Like
Speaker 2: I'm a fan of you doing things that I feel
Speaker 2: are gonna help the world in my life. And if
Speaker 2: you make decisions that don't, I'm happy to be gone,
Speaker 2: you know, And I don't be if I agree with
Speaker 2: you today, that doesn't mean now I immerse myselves in all
Speaker 2: of your decisions about your party. I might only like
Speaker 2: to I might only like a handful of things that
Speaker 2: you do, so that it's not enough to really make
Speaker 2: me have any allegiance to a political party. But people
Speaker 2: that are in the extremes, they don't even I feel
Speaker 2: like they don't even need those votes. Like those people
Speaker 2: are they are Mets fans to you, you're not gonna
Speaker 2: lose them. Like, look at it. If you're a Jets fan,
Speaker 2: you're never going anywhere. If you're gonna deal with the Jets,
Speaker 2: nothing that's gonna change your mind. And I feel like
Speaker 2: that's going on a lot of politics. You have people
Speaker 2: that they're like, they're catering to these extremes and you're not.
Speaker 2: You don't have to worry about those people. I feel like, Yo,
Speaker 2: it's people in the middle like me. Shouldn't you be
Speaker 2: worried more about me? But but you know, everybody kind
Speaker 2: of you know, as that things things that way, I guess.
Speaker 2: So I do feel like this current administration is really
Speaker 2: trying to send a message that, hey, you took all
Speaker 2: of these things for granted, but these rights maybe when
Speaker 2: they're not always guaranteed, they can be reinterpreted. And actually
Speaker 2: I just finished my administration degree literally like on Saturday.
Speaker 2: Was my last class, you know, for my school building
Speaker 2: and school leadership thing, And my last class was an
Speaker 2: educational law class. And it was very interesting and because
Speaker 2: we kind of grew up assuming that these things in
Speaker 2: the Constitution were these guaranteed rights, but we forget that
Speaker 2: it's all about how they're interpreted, you know, and and
Speaker 2: when you know certain you know cases like you know,
Speaker 2: rovers weight and all these things, when we see these
Speaker 2: shifts of WHOA, I don't know that could be changed,
Speaker 2: and we forget these are amendments which means to be
Speaker 2: changed and people can reinterpret them and you might not
Speaker 2: agree with the current interpretation. And I think right now
Speaker 2: you have a lot of people that were kind of
Speaker 2: like surprised, like whoa, I thought that that could only
Speaker 2: be interpreted a certain way, and now they're kind of
Speaker 2: dealing with Oh, now it's interpreted much more conservatively or
Speaker 2: much less equitably. And you know what, if you really,
Speaker 2: if you really value democracy, you got to deal with that.
Speaker 2: You know, if you really value democracy, you got to
Speaker 2: uh participatory.
Speaker 1: You don't work at it. It's not going to work correct.
Speaker 2: If you want things to be you know, if you
Speaker 2: if you want your things to be guaranteed and unchanged,
Speaker 2: that's not really a democracy. That's you liking fascism when
Speaker 2: it agrees with your ideals or you like that, And
Speaker 2: to me, that's not really democracy. Democracy is messy, and
Speaker 2: it's ugly and it's going to change with the shifts
Speaker 2: and perception, and that's sometimes it's going to be on
Speaker 2: your side and sometimes it's not. But anyways, in regards
Speaker 2: to that with the arts and DEI I think it's
Speaker 2: more of a message that people are saying, like, hey,
Speaker 2: we're not giving this the priority and the effort that
Speaker 2: it was, and we're gonna make you you know, we're
Speaker 2: not gonna We're gonna make sure people understand that these
Speaker 2: are things that can be interpreted differently, and so we're
Speaker 2: seeing like a more conservative I think we're seeing a
Speaker 2: more conservative interpretation of it. But I don't think it's
Speaker 2: it's like a I think it's really a message sending
Speaker 2: thing how long it's gonna last. I think it's kind
Speaker 2: of sending a message like, hey, this can happen too,
Speaker 2: you know, so let's try, you know, in a way.
Speaker 2: Maybe it'll bring us more to the middle. I don't know,
Speaker 2: but I think that's what might happen.
Speaker 1: Do you remain optimistic?
Speaker 2: Do I remain optimistic? That's a great question. I think
Speaker 2: that I'm a I guess i'd call it an optimal
Speaker 2: optimist cynicist. Is that the world I don't know if
Speaker 2: I'm putting that together right.
Speaker 1: I think how we put it a cynical optimist.
Speaker 2: That's a cynical optimist, which probably some people say is
Speaker 2: a cop out, right, I'd like to I'm also very adaptable.
Speaker 2: I feel like, no matter what happens, I will find
Speaker 2: a way to navigate it. And I'm not a fan
Speaker 2: of people, you know, not being able to navigate the
Speaker 2: time they lives in, Like, you gotta survive and you
Speaker 2: gotta do your things, so navigate it.
Speaker 1: But you know, you know, that's the real that's the
Speaker 1: real interpretation of evolution. Always people always said it's the
Speaker 1: survival of the fittest. It's nice, the survival of the
Speaker 1: most adaptable. Correct, you know, sometimes works.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it means being sneaky, and sometimes it means reinventing yourself,
Speaker 2: and sometimes it means just quietly objecting. Sometimes I means
Speaker 2: publicly objecting. You know.
Speaker 1: Having an open mind is ultimately, I think is being
Speaker 1: being able to to listen to all.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I don't know. I'm not a political pundit.
Speaker 2: I don't have all the answers, And like I said,
Speaker 2: I don't even try to tell people, you know, when
Speaker 2: we talk about boycotting and are we too DEI or
Speaker 2: where we That's it's up to you.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: I can make a case, and I guess I learned
Speaker 2: this from my law class too. I could make a
Speaker 2: case on either side. I could convince you either way
Speaker 2: and and and it changes. You know, my opinion on
Speaker 2: it changes often. I think what's more important is that
Speaker 2: we can people that have different opinions, like that's why
Speaker 2: I like your show, can talk about it and see
Speaker 2: it from the other side. What I don't want to.
Speaker 2: What I don't like is when people say I feel
Speaker 2: this way, So I need to go on social media
Speaker 2: and make sure everybody feels this way, because if they don't,
Speaker 2: then I can't handle feeling my way. Don't get so
Speaker 2: caught up in your belief that you were. It's it's
Speaker 2: social suicide to change your mind.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: If you if you if you are so adamant about
Speaker 2: something that you're gonna look so foolish if you change
Speaker 2: your mind. I think that's dangerous. Always be open to
Speaker 2: changing mind on something. You can still have an opinion
Speaker 2: on it, but maybe say, hey, I feel this way
Speaker 2: now because I'm twenty five, I'm not obviously but maybe
Speaker 2: I won't feel that way when I'm forty four, or
Speaker 2: when I'm married with kids, or when I have taught college,
Speaker 2: and respect that that not everybody. Some people make decisions
Speaker 2: with their morals right away. Some people have to think
Speaker 2: a little more prudently about their pocketbooks and their mortgages,
Speaker 2: and some people have a luxury to, you know, to
Speaker 2: be more impulsive, and some people have to be a
Speaker 2: little more reserved and calculating. And just don't I think
Speaker 2: it's presumptuous to assume because you feel a certain way
Speaker 2: right in the moment, everybody should feel that same way
Speaker 2: about whether it's a beer like bud Light, or whether
Speaker 2: it's a musical style or an artist. You can disagree
Speaker 2: and you can share that information, because information is never bad.
Speaker 2: I'm never a fan of repressing information. But I don't
Speaker 2: think the move is to necessarily convince everybody that because
Speaker 2: you don't like a person, that their art is not
Speaker 2: valuable anymore.
Speaker 1: All right, let's talk to Eric Tavido, the musician. Let's
Speaker 1: what what work do you have coming up? What gigs
Speaker 1: do we need to know about where we can go
Speaker 1: see Eric Tavito?
Speaker 2: Oh okay, yeah, so I'm doing. I have two gigs
Speaker 2: this week. One is kind of last minute. I'm going
Speaker 2: to be at the Green Growler and Crochton on Hudson tomorrow.
Speaker 2: That's actually I'm sitting in on a gig that's with
Speaker 2: the Paul Francis trio is a great drummer and that's
Speaker 2: at six thirty to eight thirty and that's actually an
Speaker 2: open jam session, so musicians are welcome to come. And
Speaker 2: that's the same group I'll be performing with on Saturday,
Speaker 2: August ninth at Maureens Jazz Seller in Nayak. If you
Speaker 2: haven't been to Maureens, yeah, I played there a few
Speaker 2: years ago. It was a great gig, had a great time.
Speaker 2: Glad to come back to lead my trio there. And
Speaker 2: that'll be with myself on guitar and Peter Brendler on
Speaker 2: bass and Paul Francis on drums. So that'll be a
Speaker 2: trio and we'll be doing some fun stuff. We're gonna
Speaker 2: do a mix of jazz standards, some very interesting arrangements.
Speaker 2: You might hear a little Bach mixed in there with
Speaker 2: some Stevie Wonder and you might hear a little Wayne Shorter,
Speaker 2: you know, late Miles Davis error sixties, so a nice
Speaker 2: eclectic set and that's at seven pm, and that's something
Speaker 2: I want to note because we're doing the earlier set
Speaker 2: that day. It's just one set, so there will be
Speaker 2: another group later. I know a lot of those shows
Speaker 2: start at eight usually, but this show on the Saturday
Speaker 2: of the ninth is seven pm and it's just one set,
Speaker 2: so you do want to get there. There won't be
Speaker 2: a second set with my group, and tickets are on
Speaker 2: sale at Maureenes where you can check out their website
Speaker 2: Maureenes Jazz Seller. You can also check out my website
Speaker 2: www dot Ericdivito dot com. Because I'm kind of taking
Speaker 2: social media break, I'm not quite as updating things on
Speaker 2: social media. Some of them get updated audiomatically when I
Speaker 2: send out my mailers, so there might be some stuff.
Speaker 2: But if you want to get on my mailing list,
Speaker 2: you can just do that through my website because my
Speaker 2: social media stuff is probably not as up to date
Speaker 2: anymore unless it's happening automatic through my email lists and
Speaker 2: stuff like that. So yeah, hopefully you guys come out.
Speaker 2: It should be a fun time and you know, either
Speaker 2: of those shows either this tomorrow. I think it's the fifth,
Speaker 2: right so tomorrow fifth.
Speaker 1: Yes, we're recording on the on the fourth. Will be
Speaker 1: Tuesday the fifth, and then Saturday.
Speaker 2: Then night Tuesday the fifth at Green Growler and Saturday
Speaker 2: the ninth at Maureen's.
Speaker 1: Great Eric Deavido, it's always a pleasure. You're intelligent conversation,
Speaker 1: You're always frank with us. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Cool, it's always a pleasure to be here, Frank, And
Speaker 2: thanks so much for having me, and we'll have that.
Speaker 3: Yes, of course we'll have you again. You know, of course,
Speaker 3: to offer special thanks to work with if you take
Speaker 3: time taking us a voice in their lives. We offer
Speaker 3: fresh topic just about every week. Catch us wherever and
Speaker 3: whenever you get your favorite podcasts. You can check us
Speaker 3: out on the Hudson River Radio Facebook page. Like us
Speaker 3: and leave us a convent too. I also write regularly
Speaker 3: for Nayak News and Views and publish a fresh article
Speaker 3: every Friday. I also have my own blog, Being Frank,
Speaker 3: where you can see my writing. I invite you to
Speaker 3: check out both of things. They are non commercial and
Speaker 3: pretty much within my wheelhouse. Okay, well let's leave you
Speaker 3: with two last things.
Speaker 1: Eric, don't go anywhere, because I want you to introduce
Speaker 1: some of your music to close the show. But for that,
Speaker 1: before that, I'd like to give you our slogan. And
Speaker 1: this one comes from the brilliant George Orwell who said,
Speaker 1: if liberty means anything at all, it means the right
Speaker 1: to tell people what they do not want to hear.
Speaker 1: I think very much in line with our conversation today. Okay, Eric,
Speaker 1: you're gonna introduce our final song. What are we gonna hear?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So this is an original composition of mine. It's
Speaker 2: called Breaking the Ice. It's actually off my debut album,
Speaker 2: which is called Breaking the Ice. I think from twenty twelve.
Speaker 2: There's a live recording of it, and this is from
Speaker 2: I believe it was recorded at Jazz at Katano Hotel
Speaker 2: in New York City, which is a great, great jazz club.
Speaker 2: I don't remember what year it's from, but this is
Speaker 2: the title track off my debut album, Breaking the Ice.
Speaker 1: All right, Breaking the Ice with mister Eric DeVito for
Speaker 1: our engineer the mail Man because he always delivers. Mister
Speaker 1: neil Richtor, I'm your host, Frank Bono, and we hope
Speaker 1: to have you join us on the next being Frank,
Speaker 1: where the only way to be is Frank.
Speaker 4: Reportation. It fix its it, it's
Speaker 2: This is Hudson River Radio dot com