WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:02.799 Hudson River Radio dot com. 2 00:00:03.080 --> 00:00:08.679 It beats listening to nothing. My goodness is Frank's being Frank, 3 00:00:09.000 --> 00:00:11.720 right were the only way to be is Frank. 4 00:00:14.039 --> 00:00:17.399 Hello everyone, and welcome to being Frank. We're the only 5 00:00:17.480 --> 00:00:21.239 way to be is Frank. I'm your host, Frank Lebono, 6 00:00:21.280 --> 00:00:23.120 and I'd like to thank you for joining us on 7 00:00:23.160 --> 00:00:27.320 what we like to call the Intelligent Conversation Podcast, where 8 00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:30.960 no conversation is out of bounds in all points of 9 00:00:31.039 --> 00:00:35.159 view are welcome. As you know, we record live to tape. 10 00:00:35.399 --> 00:00:37.640 I give you the date so you have some relevance 11 00:00:37.719 --> 00:00:42.079 and context. It is the fourth of August, our first 12 00:00:42.439 --> 00:00:46.359 program for the month of August. You know, we think 13 00:00:46.399 --> 00:00:50.039 of cancel culture as a modern phenomenon, but in fact 14 00:00:50.560 --> 00:00:52.960 it's been around for a very long time and affected 15 00:00:53.119 --> 00:00:58.039 artists as diverse as Wagner, Stravinsky, Michael Jackson, John Lennon 16 00:00:58.119 --> 00:01:01.159 and many others. Of course, with the changes brought on 17 00:01:01.240 --> 00:01:05.000 by the miracle that is the Internet, today's reactions can 18 00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:10.040 be seen as more immediate, universal, and particularly visceral. So 19 00:01:10.079 --> 00:01:13.359 how do we separate the art we love and the 20 00:01:13.519 --> 00:01:17.760 artist we have come to disrespect? And should we? 21 00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:17.920 Well? 22 00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:20.840 As times has some intelligent conversation on the subject with 23 00:01:20.879 --> 00:01:23.719 one of our favorite guests here on Being Frank. He's 24 00:01:23.760 --> 00:01:28.439 a composer, musician, educator, and jazz historian. Welcome back to 25 00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:30.000 Being Frank, Eric de Vito. 26 00:01:31.439 --> 00:01:33.400 How's it going, Frank, Thanks for having me back. Always 27 00:01:33.439 --> 00:01:35.480 a pleasure to be here on your paddast and. 28 00:01:35.439 --> 00:01:37.359 It's always a pleasure to have you Eric. Your shows 29 00:01:37.400 --> 00:01:40.400 are always so intelligent. You do your research and help 30 00:01:40.439 --> 00:01:42.640 me out with mine as well, and I think people 31 00:01:43.120 --> 00:01:45.719 really appreciate that. We've always gotten very good feedback for 32 00:01:45.799 --> 00:01:48.400 your performances, and I'm sure we will with this one 33 00:01:48.439 --> 00:01:53.040 because it's another interesting topic, which brings me to my 34 00:01:53.239 --> 00:01:56.400 first question is you know, we spoke of this weeks 35 00:01:56.439 --> 00:01:58.719 ago in timing wise, et cetera. We had to kind 36 00:01:58.719 --> 00:02:00.879 of put it off till today. But what gave to 37 00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:03.079 the original germ of the idea that this was a 38 00:02:03.159 --> 00:02:04.560 topic worth talking about? 39 00:02:05.879 --> 00:02:11.000 Yeah, so cancel culture. You know, obviously it's a hot topic. 40 00:02:11.240 --> 00:02:15.599 It's a I feel like it's very you know, like 41 00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:19.039 you mentioned in your in your intro, it's not something 42 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:22.639 that's totally new to the current climate, but I feel 43 00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:27.280 like it's very, very hot right now and it's used 44 00:02:27.400 --> 00:02:35.680 very often. I find it sometimes, you know, it's like 45 00:02:35.719 --> 00:02:39.319 the equivalent of a boycott, I feel like, but towards 46 00:02:39.479 --> 00:02:44.520 individuals or their art, and I find my views on 47 00:02:44.599 --> 00:02:47.520 it mixed often, you know, I think as a musician 48 00:02:47.520 --> 00:02:52.080 and an artist, I'm inherently against it because I feel 49 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:55.240 I always like to put art, you know, the art 50 00:02:55.240 --> 00:02:59.240 that someone creates is is kind of transcendent of who 51 00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:02.000 they are as a person. But it's very hard to 52 00:03:02.039 --> 00:03:06.639 separate the person, you know. I think that in the 53 00:03:06.719 --> 00:03:11.439 current climate of social media where and celebrity obsessiveness, it's 54 00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:15.960 more it's more I don't know if I want to 55 00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:18.599 say favorable, but it's kind of more common in this 56 00:03:18.840 --> 00:03:23.039 kind of culture where we're so interested in the personal 57 00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:28.280 lives of people, whereas back you know, historically we probably 58 00:03:28.360 --> 00:03:31.280 wouldn't have known or know quite as much about that 59 00:03:31.360 --> 00:03:34.000 person as you know, the Internet and social media lets 60 00:03:34.120 --> 00:03:37.919 us now. But I also think, you know, there's a 61 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:42.240 historical context that we sometimes, you know, struggle with where 62 00:03:42.280 --> 00:03:45.599 we want to hold somebody accountable for something that maybe 63 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:50.000 was not viewed quite in the same light today as 64 00:03:50.039 --> 00:03:53.000 when it might have happened, and so that creates some 65 00:03:53.080 --> 00:03:56.840 differences too, right, like certain artists today who you know, 66 00:03:56.879 --> 00:03:59.159 I know we're going to get into. But just an example, 67 00:03:59.199 --> 00:04:01.159 looking at you know, everybody, I'm sure as following the P. 68 00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:05.520 Diddy trial that has to exist today, so we have 69 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:08.520 a very different view on it. Whereas had that happened 70 00:04:08.599 --> 00:04:12.719 during Wagner's time, it might have not been we might 71 00:04:12.759 --> 00:04:16.199 not judge it the same today. But some people want 72 00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:17.959 to do that, and so I think it creates a 73 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:21.639 lot of controversy and a lot of different opinions. And 74 00:04:21.720 --> 00:04:24.680 I find myself going back and forth on it. And 75 00:04:24.680 --> 00:04:26.720 I was actually having a conversation with my wife last night. 76 00:04:26.759 --> 00:04:29.240 I always kind of go over our podcast with her 77 00:04:29.319 --> 00:04:32.319 over a glass of wine, and I found my you know, 78 00:04:32.360 --> 00:04:34.240 she was making some I always ask her to be 79 00:04:34.279 --> 00:04:37.920 like the Devil's advocate about it, and she was like 80 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:39.360 making some good points, and I was like, you know what, 81 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:41.519 that's a good point, I wonder maybe. So I find 82 00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:44.920 that my views on it are kind of frequently shifting 83 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:48.399 and are less concrete. I find it to be a 84 00:04:48.399 --> 00:04:51.480 little more situational. But the one thing I always agree 85 00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:57.360 on is people are fallible, right, nobody's infallible, and people 86 00:04:57.480 --> 00:05:00.439 create art and I hope that continues right with the 87 00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:03.519 modern AI. So you know, that's a whole different rabbit 88 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:06.199 hole we could do another show on. But I always 89 00:05:06.199 --> 00:05:09.399 try to remind myself that people are not perfect, they're fallible, 90 00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:13.920 and so if we're going to judge their art on that, 91 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:16.319 then you're always gonna find there's always going to be 92 00:05:16.399 --> 00:05:19.279 something we don't like. But as an artist, I try 93 00:05:19.319 --> 00:05:22.800 to let somebody's arts, you know, rise above who they 94 00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:25.199 were as a person. And that's my own belief. But 95 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:28.079 I'm sure that there is if I sit and examine 96 00:05:28.120 --> 00:05:30.560 it long enough, I might find some situations where I 97 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:33.319 might have trouble removing the art from the artist, depending 98 00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:35.720 on the situation and how personal it might be to me. 99 00:05:36.759 --> 00:05:38.519 So that's kind of where I am on I think 100 00:05:38.519 --> 00:05:40.680 it's a really great topic and I think there's a 101 00:05:40.680 --> 00:05:42.680 lot of opinions on it, and I think it's good 102 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:46.000 to explore it because opinions change. I don't want to 103 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:48.480 have a concrete opinion on it. I think that my 104 00:05:48.560 --> 00:05:50.759 mind can be changed a lot, and when different things 105 00:05:50.759 --> 00:05:52.399 are brought to light, well. 106 00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:54.720 You know, that's why we call it intelligent conversation. Eric, 107 00:05:54.759 --> 00:05:57.079 And seriously, I'm not being trite. That's what we want 108 00:05:57.079 --> 00:05:59.399 to have and that's what we're having now. As you mentioned, 109 00:05:59.399 --> 00:06:01.680 the worthy time, and we're going to develop a lot 110 00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:04.319 of the themes that you mentioned, you know, the connection 111 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:09.120 between artists and art and the changing technology, particularly the Internet. 112 00:06:09.160 --> 00:06:12.040 As I mentioned, things happened so quickly, and there's an 113 00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:15.800 anonymity of it all which can make people more vicious 114 00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:18.839 and more visceral. We'll develop those themes. But before that, 115 00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:21.959 you mentioned a little bit of historic context. Again, we 116 00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:25.240 think of it modern terms again, because twenty four hour 117 00:06:25.319 --> 00:06:29.199 news cycle, et cetera, were barraged with information quite frankly 118 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:33.720 all the time. That wasn't necessarily the case. However, there 119 00:06:33.839 --> 00:06:37.399 was still they may have called it that cancel culture. 120 00:06:37.759 --> 00:06:39.959 There is a kind of a historic timeline of it. 121 00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:42.079 If you could give us a little bit of context, 122 00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:45.560 like you mentioned Wagner and Stravinsky, tell us a little 123 00:06:45.560 --> 00:06:47.639 bit about you know, some of the people from the 124 00:06:47.800 --> 00:06:50.040 early part of the twentieth and nineteenth centuries. 125 00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:52.120 Yeah, you know, I think Wagner is one of the 126 00:06:52.120 --> 00:06:55.560 most famous famous examples because he was an open anti Semite, 127 00:06:56.040 --> 00:06:58.680 you know, and he had ideological ties to Nazi Germany. 128 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:02.439 You know, and if you ask any musician you know, 129 00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:05.600 who's one of the greatest German opera composers is Wagner? 130 00:07:05.720 --> 00:07:14.000 You know, so his music is undeniably historically significant and great. 131 00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:17.759 You know. Now if you decide so, then the question 132 00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:21.240 becomes like, do we celebrate his music or because he 133 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:25.199 was you know, an anti Semite and openly uh, you know, 134 00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:30.800 tied to Nazi Germany, do we then not support that? 135 00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:32.959 Do we? And you know, and then it depends how 136 00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:35.720 you look at it. Me personally, I can't all of 137 00:07:35.759 --> 00:07:38.720 a sudden convince myself that Wagner's music is now no 138 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:42.759 longer good because I have to ask myself, does who 139 00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:46.240 he was as a person change how his music touches 140 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:47.240 me and makes me feel? 141 00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:47.920 To me? 142 00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:50.120 Fair question? And that's and that's a fair question. 143 00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:57.639 But you know, maybe somebody who was more affected, you know, 144 00:07:57.720 --> 00:08:01.639 maybe somebody who was part of the Holocaust or had 145 00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:05.199 a relative. Maybe it's not that they Maybe it's not 146 00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:06.720 so much the way I'm looking at that, they don't 147 00:08:06.920 --> 00:08:09.199 they don't acknowledge the music's great, but they can't bring 148 00:08:09.240 --> 00:08:13.759 themselves to connect with somebody. And I get that, you know, 149 00:08:13.800 --> 00:08:15.519 And I think I think I had a little more 150 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:18.199 trouble relating to that point of it, because I always 151 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:20.600 used to say, like, like, you know, if you like 152 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:22.839 their music once, how could you not like? But I 153 00:08:22.879 --> 00:08:25.319 do understand that maybe that there's more of a personal 154 00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:29.920 connection there. It could just be harder from a moral 155 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:34.200 you know thing. But you know, whatever your feeling's on it, 156 00:08:34.279 --> 00:08:37.679 Wagner's operas are historically significant. There's some of the greatest operas. 157 00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:39.519 They're some of the most complex operas. Of course. I 158 00:08:39.559 --> 00:08:42.600 mean some people find them exhausting, you know, in terms 159 00:08:42.679 --> 00:08:46.039 of his opera cycles, but they're you know, a standard, 160 00:08:46.120 --> 00:08:49.960 and they are so important. So my whole issue is, 161 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:54.279 whatever your views on Wagner are. I mean, obviously that's 162 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:56.440 terrible that he was in an open antisemi Like, no, 163 00:08:56.440 --> 00:08:58.759 I don't think anybody's condoning that. But I'm not sure 164 00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:03.519 i'd want to array historically what he did. I'm not 165 00:09:03.559 --> 00:09:05.759 sure i'd want to, you know, do the equivalent of 166 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:09.720 tearing down a statue of his music, because I think 167 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:12.039 that's not I'm not sure that's doing the world and 168 00:09:12.120 --> 00:09:17.360 he favors. I think it's helping people not feel like that, 169 00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:19.679 you know. I always say to people you can just 170 00:09:19.720 --> 00:09:21.840 not listen to it. If you don't enjoy it, don't 171 00:09:21.840 --> 00:09:24.039 listen to it. There's plenty and I get that. I'm 172 00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:26.120 personally where I'm at in the point of my life 173 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:29.639 right now. I'm not in favor of historically erasing anything, 174 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:35.360 even things that are are you know, looked at as 175 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:43.039 being you know, inequitable, or things that caused harm. To me, 176 00:09:43.240 --> 00:09:45.519 just the fact that they're part of history is worth studying, 177 00:09:45.519 --> 00:09:48.159 you know, whether it's worth studying and then learning why 178 00:09:48.200 --> 00:09:50.440 the person associated with that was a problem. But to 179 00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:53.720 erase it, to me, I'm just not in favor of that. 180 00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:55.519 I know some people are, and I don't, you know, 181 00:09:55.559 --> 00:09:57.240 and maybe my mind might change on that. 182 00:09:57.519 --> 00:09:59.720 Well did you see it? I might just jump in 183 00:09:59.720 --> 00:10:02.440 because I think it's a really salient point right right here, 184 00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:04.720 And it was a question I had for further down 185 00:10:04.759 --> 00:10:08.919 in our conversation, but it's relative now. So in other words, 186 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:11.519 do you see it as another form of censorship? Is 187 00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:12.919 that a fair analogy? 188 00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:17.919 I think so. I think it becomes a cultural pressure 189 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:21.159 to censor. I mean, you know, the bottom line is, 190 00:10:21.559 --> 00:10:24.399 how do you you know when you want to cancel something? 191 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:26.120 What do you do? Right? Do you want it to 192 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:30.799 become unavailable. I'm not sure people are, you know, you know, 193 00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:34.480 if it becomes unpopular, then you know, it's a harder 194 00:10:34.519 --> 00:10:37.080 time now because we're not dealing with record labels and things. 195 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:39.679 You know, everybody everything's streaming, so it's a lot easier 196 00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:42.519 to kind of put things out there. But let's take 197 00:10:42.559 --> 00:10:44.600 it like we're on a radio station right now. Let's 198 00:10:44.639 --> 00:10:46.960 go back a decade or two when everything came through 199 00:10:47.000 --> 00:10:49.720 the radio, right for the most part, it was very easy. 200 00:10:49.879 --> 00:10:52.279 If there was a political pressure to tell the radio 201 00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:55.159 station would just be told, hey, our spot, we're going 202 00:10:55.240 --> 00:10:57.840 to lose our sponsors, we're not playing this person's music, right, 203 00:10:57.879 --> 00:11:00.960 and that could kind of you know, you can still 204 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:02.720 go out and buy their CDs and stuff maybe, but 205 00:11:02.759 --> 00:11:04.759 that really put a pressure on it. Whereas today, I 206 00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:08.639 don't think that's so easy. You know, now it's people 207 00:11:08.679 --> 00:11:11.799 almost it's like a boycott, you know. And I equated 208 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:13.159 I was saying this to my wife, did they I 209 00:11:13.159 --> 00:11:15.799 equate it to like when people boycotted bud Light a 210 00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:19.360 couple of years ago. You know, if you don't if 211 00:11:19.399 --> 00:11:22.639 you like bud Light, you're not going to pretend you 212 00:11:22.679 --> 00:11:25.559 don't like it anymore. You might not agree with the 213 00:11:25.639 --> 00:11:28.240 message of the company, but you're not going to all 214 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:30.120 of a sudden be like bud Light doesn't taste good 215 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:33.200 to me anymore. So I could never decide that Wagner 216 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:36.519 doesn't sound good and it doesn't move me. So but 217 00:11:36.879 --> 00:11:38.919 maybe if these people have an issue and they want 218 00:11:38.919 --> 00:11:41.799 to boycott the product, then okay, And then of course 219 00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:45.039 that comes with That's where social media takes a big part, 220 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:48.600 is now where you might have quietly boycotted it. And 221 00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:50.559 by the way, that's the kind of when I am 222 00:11:50.600 --> 00:11:54.000 against something, I quietly do it myself. I don't try 223 00:11:54.039 --> 00:11:57.200 to pressure other people to do it, because they need 224 00:11:57.200 --> 00:11:59.519 to make their own decisions. But I think a big 225 00:11:59.559 --> 00:12:01.600 part of cante culture is trying to get people on 226 00:12:01.639 --> 00:12:04.639 your team, and I think that ties into social media 227 00:12:04.639 --> 00:12:06.320 and insecurity and all this other stuff that I have 228 00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:08.279 a problem with social media, which is why I'm kind 229 00:12:08.279 --> 00:12:12.639 of not on and so much anymore. But to me, 230 00:12:12.720 --> 00:12:14.639 I wouldn't like, you know, maybe I want to inform 231 00:12:14.679 --> 00:12:17.039 people like, hey, did you know not Wagner was an 232 00:12:17.039 --> 00:12:19.639 anti sound Sure, I think everybody should know that information, 233 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:21.600 But I'm not going to go around and tell people 234 00:12:21.639 --> 00:12:23.679 what I think they should listen to or what beer 235 00:12:23.720 --> 00:12:26.240 they should drink. I don't think that's my place, and 236 00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:29.840 I don't think that, you know, I think that creates 237 00:12:29.840 --> 00:12:33.440 a lot of polarization and division. And the bottom line is, 238 00:12:33.759 --> 00:12:36.960 you know, those companies don't really care about your views. 239 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:39.440 All they care about is their dollars. And so to me, 240 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:42.559 it's not authentic. Anyways, when when when they lose, drop 241 00:12:42.600 --> 00:12:45.120 the sponsor whatever, they're not really doing that because they 242 00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:47.120 believe in whatever you're trying to do. They just they 243 00:12:47.159 --> 00:12:49.039 just want your money back, so they're going to do it. 244 00:12:49.159 --> 00:12:50.720 So to me, it's inauthentic. 245 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:53.120 Anyways, I want to talk a little bit more about 246 00:12:53.159 --> 00:12:56.919 the involvement of social media because that has changed everything 247 00:12:57.200 --> 00:12:59.759 in so many ways, and including here. But you mentioned 248 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:03.360 and because there are others, and you're you're a jazz historian, 249 00:13:03.399 --> 00:13:07.679 so let's get in your wheelhouse. Miles Davis. Yeah, so 250 00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:10.080 Miles is a classic. We give us a little more 251 00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:11.480 detail about that situation. 252 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:16.240 Sure, you know, Miles is a great example because he 253 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:19.159 wasn't shy about his view. You know, he was an 254 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:23.799 extreme misogynist. He's abusive towards women. You know, he had 255 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:25.879 he had a lot of issues in his own life 256 00:13:25.919 --> 00:13:28.879 that he took out in his you know, his relationships 257 00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:32.840 with other people. But he was known as being you know, 258 00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:38.080 abusive person obviously, you know, substance abuse issues, but very 259 00:13:38.120 --> 00:13:45.519 misogynistic and that also you know, pretty racist, you know, 260 00:13:45.559 --> 00:13:47.960 in terms of that was not really a fan of 261 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:50.600 white you know, white people at all. Obviously, he had 262 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:54.279 his own reasons for the racism he he encountered and 263 00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:58.440 dealt with or perceived. But you know, there are some 264 00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:02.960 people that think Miles Davis is a terrible person. You know, 265 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:04.919 I didn't know him personally, but I've done a lot 266 00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:06.840 of reading on him and study on him, and I 267 00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:09.039 pretty much agree. I don't think he was the nicest person. 268 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:13.200 I don't disagree with any of those things about him. 269 00:14:14.279 --> 00:14:18.279 I am so I grew up and learned jazz through 270 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:22.440 Miles Davis's music. I'm so interconnected with it, and I 271 00:14:23.080 --> 00:14:27.720 learned about that music through him, maybe more than anybody 272 00:14:27.799 --> 00:14:33.759 else through him music. So I can never really, I 273 00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:37.399 could never really stop, you know, appreciating his music. I 274 00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:41.519 just acknowledge that he was an a hole, you know, 275 00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:45.279 in many people's views, and that I probably wouldn't like 276 00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:47.960 him as a person. But to me, I'm I'm able 277 00:14:47.960 --> 00:14:51.639 to totally separate it from his art. But that's me. 278 00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:54.799 Yeah, And it's funny. I was gonna jump in because 279 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:58.240 that was one of my questions when that was revealed 280 00:14:58.279 --> 00:15:00.480 to you. And I'm assuming when you first listen to 281 00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:03.320 someone's that the first thing you gravitate towards what are 282 00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:06.679 they like as a person, what's their personality? Generally that 283 00:15:06.759 --> 00:15:08.960 comes a little bit later on as you delve more 284 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:11.919 into their music and fair enough into their lives as 285 00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:15.799 you get more interested. But I was wondering, and it 286 00:15:15.879 --> 00:15:17.440 kind of answered it, but you can develop it a 287 00:15:17.480 --> 00:15:21.639 little bit more upon learning that. Did you listen for 288 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:24.200 it in your music at or did you hear anything 289 00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:26.519 that kind of changed your perception? 290 00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:31.279 Well, yes and no. So and this was another great 291 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:32.960 point that came up when I was having my kind 292 00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:35.440 of pre show conversation with my wife. You know, she 293 00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:39.440 said to me, well, don't you doesn't knowing about the 294 00:15:39.559 --> 00:15:44.039 artist's life. Isn't that an integral part of appreciating the art? 295 00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:47.279 And I'm thinking, yeah, absolutely, you know, like this's the 296 00:15:47.320 --> 00:15:50.240 reason we study composers, and the more you know about 297 00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:54.120 their life and their struggles, the more you appreciate the 298 00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:58.200 art they did. So it's kind of hard because it's 299 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:02.759 like also knowing, you know, it makes me think that 300 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:05.600 the music that these people produced. You know, let's take 301 00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:09.919 Miles Davis, he had to be the person he was 302 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:12.840 to make that music, whether it was a you know, 303 00:16:13.159 --> 00:16:15.600 he was dealing with certain issues that made him become 304 00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:18.720 that way, and then the result artistically was this music. 305 00:16:19.159 --> 00:16:21.799 So we can't deny or separate that. And yes, I 306 00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:29.360 think knowing about that is more important to appreciating the art, right, So, yes, 307 00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:31.200 I want to know. As I found more of those 308 00:16:31.240 --> 00:16:35.039 things out, I became, I found Miles Davis more interesting 309 00:16:35.080 --> 00:16:38.519 as a person. You know. That doesn't mean I condone 310 00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:41.080 any of his behavior or anything, but I just never 311 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:43.759 felt like it was my place or any of our 312 00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:47.919 places to you know, publicly judge him on that. And 313 00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:51.879 to me, what a loss. If I had knew that 314 00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:55.639 first maybe and then decided or I was of the 315 00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:58.360 you know, persuasion that well, now I'm not gonna explore 316 00:16:58.399 --> 00:17:00.559 his art because I don't like him as a person. 317 00:17:01.039 --> 00:17:02.799 To me, that would be a tremendous loss. I mean, 318 00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:05.680 have greatly affected my life in terms of, you know, 319 00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:08.720 learning about jazz music. But then I think about all 320 00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:10.319 other people that do that and what they might be 321 00:17:10.359 --> 00:17:14.119 missing out on. But you know, listen, that's me. And 322 00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:17.480 maybe somebody can't bring themselves to you know, maybe somebody 323 00:17:17.559 --> 00:17:20.160 was a victim of abuse or something and they can't 324 00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:24.279 bring themselves to listen to or appreciate the art of 325 00:17:24.319 --> 00:17:26.680 somebody who did. And I get that, and I respect that, 326 00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:30.079 But I think that we all should know as much 327 00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:34.039 as we can about the composers and the artists that 328 00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:36.400 we listen to, because it only enhances and deepens our 329 00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:38.599 appreciation from the art. Now, whether or not we need 330 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:42.079 to know that right away, maybe maybe the litmus test 331 00:17:42.119 --> 00:17:44.519 is listen to something, first, decide if you like it, 332 00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:46.680 if it touches you in any way, and then decide 333 00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:48.759 would you still feel the same way knowing X, Y 334 00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:50.960 and Z. Maybe that's a better way to go about it. 335 00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:54.039 What I'm not a fan of is I feel like 336 00:17:54.160 --> 00:17:57.640 sometimes in today's modern cancel culture, we are actually like 337 00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:01.400 dishonest with ourselves. We actually convince ourselves that we don't 338 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:04.000 like something. And I feel like, is it that you 339 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:06.440 don't like it or is it that you are afraid 340 00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:09.240 people are gonna think that you support the behavior of 341 00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:11.759 this person, are you you know, like, if Miles Davis 342 00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:15.480 or Wagner was a chef and made an amazing meal, 343 00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:17.920 would you pretend that it didn't taste good? Would it 344 00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:20.240 really stop tasting good to you? Or is it more 345 00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:21.880 of a moral thing you just can't bring yourself to 346 00:18:21.880 --> 00:18:23.599 eat it? And to me, those are two different things. 347 00:18:23.839 --> 00:18:27.440 Okay, you know interesting, Well, let's you mentioned also, and 348 00:18:29.640 --> 00:18:33.519 you cannot deny how much of the Internet it's affected things. 349 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:36.000 Yeah, it's terrible. 350 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:38.440 We don't know if that's. 351 00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:41.440 In talk coming. I'm turning into my old man mode. 352 00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:43.599 Like my kids and my wife are always like stopping 353 00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:47.039 it's it's terrible, like and like the internet's great, and 354 00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:51.559 guess what, it's terrible. It's terrible since I've like scaled 355 00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:53.599 back on it in terms of, you know, the internet 356 00:18:53.720 --> 00:18:57.039 is great for doing research and connecting to people. But 357 00:18:57.480 --> 00:19:00.359 the social media thing, man, it's terrible. And we're all 358 00:19:00.359 --> 00:19:02.400 going to convince ourselves, those of us that have jobs 359 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:06.960 in it. It's useful, but it's terrible. It's definitely created 360 00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:11.440 way more terribleness whatever the right phrase for that is 361 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:15.079 than goodness. In my opinion, and I think you just 362 00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:17.200 see that through people use it as it means to 363 00:19:17.400 --> 00:19:20.279 like people. If people want to boycott something, they need 364 00:19:20.359 --> 00:19:23.200 validation that everybody feels the same way they do, and 365 00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:25.640 so they get that validation through social media, and it's 366 00:19:25.799 --> 00:19:27.960 the algorithms are there to make sure they connect with 367 00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:31.160 people who agree with them. So it's fake anyways. So man, 368 00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:33.000 you know, I don't want to bore your listeners with that, 369 00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:35.240 but I got a huge problem with all that, and 370 00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:40.160 I just think it makes it makes everything so unauthentic. 371 00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:42.680 It brings things to light. It pretends to make such 372 00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:45.799 a national spectacle that is something that it's not. It 373 00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:49.279 connects people in this vacuum and this echo chamber where 374 00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:55.799 they think that their opinions are so universal, but they're not. Like, 375 00:19:55.839 --> 00:19:57.599 I just took a road trip to the Midwest. Man. 376 00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:00.319 It was a little off topic, and you know, if 377 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:02.079 I sat home all the time on social media, I 378 00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:04.799 would think that everybody agreed with my opinions in the world, 379 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:07.480 and because I have so much people and but I 380 00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:10.519 just went to the Midwest, and like, dude, it's totally different. 381 00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:14.319 People are totally different, and they're not very much like 382 00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:16.759 a lot of us. You know, a lot of people 383 00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:19.440 in New York are, and that's cool. They shouldn't be. 384 00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:22.079 But if you, if you don't like get off social 385 00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:24.960 media and go like connect with people, you just are 386 00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:28.200 like fed this lie where you're just connected with people 387 00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:32.319 that are like pro you know, there's an algorithm to 388 00:20:32.440 --> 00:20:35.319 make you think that that is the majority of what's happening. 389 00:20:35.359 --> 00:20:37.720 So I think it's really bad for free, free thought 390 00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:39.960 and stuff. But anyways, that's that's my rant on that. 391 00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:44.880 Well, it's in a roundabout way. It's relative to the 392 00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:49.559 question that I have, and because it feeds the cult 393 00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:53.119 of celebrity, yeah, I mean you can know just about 394 00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:57.680 everything about everybody just about instantly, and that seems to 395 00:20:57.720 --> 00:21:02.640 be very important to people. Do you think that helps 396 00:21:02.680 --> 00:21:06.680 to produce this culture of if I don't like you, 397 00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:09.799 you've got to be gone. In other words, and yeah, man, that's. 398 00:21:09.640 --> 00:21:11.319 It right there. You just should put that on a 399 00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:14.119 T shirt. If I don't like it, it's gotta be gone. 400 00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:17.400 That to me, that's something like my five year old 401 00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:23.440