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<v Speaker 3>Too late?

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<v Speaker 6>Do you accept this call? That's well.

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<v Speaker 7>You are now listening to True Murder The most Shocking

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<v Speaker 7>Killers in True crime History and the authors that have

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<v Speaker 7>written about him Bundee Stahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week

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<v Speaker 7>another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous

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<v Speaker 7>killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,

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<v Speaker 7>journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening.

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<v Speaker 5>On February sixth, nineteen seventy three, in Detroit, Michigan, drug

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<v Speaker 5>dealer Reuben Bryant was shot dead. Twenty one year old

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<v Speaker 5>artist Ray Gray was convicted for the murder. The conviction

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<v Speaker 5>based on a fixed line up and no evidence. Raymond

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<v Speaker 5>Gray is an internationally recognized artist. He is also in

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<v Speaker 5>the forty fourth year of a life sentence for the

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<v Speaker 5>nineteen seventy three murder of drug dealer Reuben Bryant. The

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<v Speaker 5>state of Michigan has had in his possession for over

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<v Speaker 5>thirty of those years, an affidavit from one of the

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<v Speaker 5>two hold up men responsible for Bryant's murder that exonerates Gray,

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<v Speaker 5>and yet Michigan recently turned Gray down yet again for

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<v Speaker 5>sentence computation commutation. In two thousand and seven, Fred Rosen

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<v Speaker 5>was looking to do a follow up to one of

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<v Speaker 5>his books and had the idea of interviewing lifers behind

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<v Speaker 5>bars who had made something of their second chance. Also

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<v Speaker 5>a film professor, Rosen recalled the nineteen sixty film Convicts

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<v Speaker 5>Four starring Ben gazeerres John Rescoe, a convicted murder who

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<v Speaker 5>became an artist behind bars. The art led to reprieve

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<v Speaker 5>his autobiography that became that movie. Rosen start looking for

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<v Speaker 5>someone like Resco found Ray Gray in Muskegan Prison in Michigan.

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<v Speaker 5>After investigating, Rosen realized he had found an innocent man.

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<v Speaker 5>Not only had Gray been an artist before prison, he

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<v Speaker 5>was about to go pro as a boxer, using the

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<v Speaker 5>money he made from boxing to attend art school. Rosen

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<v Speaker 5>knew getting an innocent man out of jail takes years

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<v Speaker 5>if you were lucky. If not, Rosen had a chance

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<v Speaker 5>to make had a decision to make was he in

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<v Speaker 5>or out the book they were featuring this evening. The

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<v Speaker 5>story we're featuring this evening is forty four years in

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<v Speaker 5>Counting an Innocent Man in Prison with my special guest

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<v Speaker 5>from Muskegan Prison, Ray Gray, and author and journalist and

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<v Speaker 5>filmmaker Fred Rosen. Welcome Ray Gray and Fred Rosen to

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<v Speaker 5>the program. Thank you, gentlemen for joining the program.

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<v Speaker 4>You paid debit call from Gray.

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<v Speaker 8>Who accepted an inmate at the Michigan Department of Corrections

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<v Speaker 8>Muskegan Correctional Facility. If you feel you're being victimized or

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<v Speaker 8>extorted by this prisoner, please contact GTL Customer Service at

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<v Speaker 8>eight five five four sixty six two eight three to two.

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<v Speaker 4>To accept this call. Press zero to refuse this call,

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<v Speaker 4>hang up or press one to prevent calls from this facility.

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<v Speaker 4>Press six.

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<v Speaker 6>Somebody needs to press zero.

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<v Speaker 4>Your call was not accepted. Please try again later.

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<v Speaker 6>Hello, Hello Damn Ray. No, it's Fred.

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<v Speaker 5>Hello Fred. Sorry for the uh problem here with the

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<v Speaker 5>prison in Michigan, and I apologize to the audience for that.

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<v Speaker 6>No, I apologize to the audience on that one. Let

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<v Speaker 6>me just explain that when he calls in, you have

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<v Speaker 6>to press zero. Did you oh you.

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<v Speaker 9>Did and it didn't come true.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, no, oh well, we'll try again. He'll call again.

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<v Speaker 5>And it was a problem when he just called in

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<v Speaker 5>just during the introduction. Yeah, yeah, we'll just we'll work

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<v Speaker 5>it out when he calls back. He's called back twice,

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<v Speaker 5>so we'll get him again and we'll connect with the program.

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<v Speaker 5>Welcome back to the program, Fred, Thank you for coming

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<v Speaker 5>on with this incredible story and also thank you for

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<v Speaker 5>surviving her again. Irma to join us here.

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<v Speaker 6>Hey, Dan, it's always a pleasure to be with you.

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<v Speaker 6>I truly appreciate it, especially doing a program on this man,

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<v Speaker 6>because this is the first time in my professional life

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<v Speaker 6>I've ever found an innocent man.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, certainly. Let's while Rey Gray is connecting. We all

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<v Speaker 5>know and he has an excellent site, Facebook page and

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<v Speaker 5>also website Free Ray Gray, giving people a lot of

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<v Speaker 5>information about what happened at this incredible file. I guess

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<v Speaker 5>that he had or didn't have that convicted him and

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<v Speaker 5>sent him to prison and continues to keep him incarcerated

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<v Speaker 5>now for the forty fourth year. Maybe you could tell

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<v Speaker 5>us how again. We just alluded to it and spoke

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<v Speaker 5>briefly to it in the introduction. How you got involved.

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<v Speaker 5>Tell us what how you got convinced, basically that this

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<v Speaker 5>man was innocent when you were looking at a completely

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<v Speaker 5>failed situation. We talked about looking at life, people doing life,

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<v Speaker 5>who had made something of their second chance. And then

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<v Speaker 5>you found.

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, mister, Yeah, I found yeah. And it was as

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<v Speaker 6>funny as we're talking if you start remembering things, you know.

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<v Speaker 6>And at the time I didn't, you know. All I

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<v Speaker 6>was thinking was, well, I just wrote a book about

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<v Speaker 6>serial killers, The Ebor to the Grace of God. Let

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<v Speaker 6>me go see if I could find some bad guys

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<v Speaker 6>who did something behind bars to make their lives better.

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<v Speaker 6>So I started, you know, I sent a couple of

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<v Speaker 6>letters down. I sent out a couple of emails, and

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<v Speaker 6>it was weird, Dan, I mean, I got a turned

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<v Speaker 6>down from one of the manson murderers. What's his name,

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<v Speaker 6>I can't remember. He became a minister and uh he

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<v Speaker 6>told that Tex Watson. Yes, thank you, thank you, sir,

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<v Speaker 6>thank you. There you go, uh and yeah, and he

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<v Speaker 6>wouldn't talk to me, he said, I already signed with

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<v Speaker 6>another writer, right, oh, okay. Then I sent the letter

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<v Speaker 6>to the son of Sam David Berkowitz in the New

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<v Speaker 6>York State prison. He wrote me back. He said, I'm sorry,

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<v Speaker 6>I'm too busy. I can't talk to you. Okay, you

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<v Speaker 6>got a life sentence, you're too busy to talk to somebody. Yeah, Well,

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<v Speaker 6>I'm helping. I'm I'm I'm helping other prisoners doing this

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<v Speaker 6>and that. I said, okay, And I got that letter.

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<v Speaker 6>Someplay and then I don't remember, you know. I suddenly

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<v Speaker 6>I remembered John Resco. I remembered this movie Convicts, for

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<v Speaker 6>which had stuck with me since I was a kid.

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<v Speaker 6>And then I essentially did a search in Google where

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<v Speaker 6>I used the search terms homicide killer artist, and eventually

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<v Speaker 6>raised man came up. And here's what happened. I'm reading

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<v Speaker 6>about this. You know, it's a website, you know, and

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<v Speaker 6>anybody can do a website, you know, even the Russians.

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<v Speaker 6>So I got that in. I got that in, and

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<v Speaker 6>then I started reading about the facts of the case.

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<v Speaker 6>And I contacted Ray's wife, Barbe, and I said, look,

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<v Speaker 6>it looks to me like he's innocent, but if I

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<v Speaker 6>find out that you're conning me, I'll burn you guys.

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<v Speaker 6>And she says, we can take it to investigate.

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<v Speaker 9>Well, I read the court.

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<v Speaker 6>Transcript at BARBARAE. Now she's calling me on the other line.

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<v Speaker 6>But I read the court transcript, and I read the transcript,

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<v Speaker 6>I read the police reports, and when I saw the

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<v Speaker 6>affid David that Ray had gotten from one of the

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<v Speaker 6>actual hold up men, in which he actually said he

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<v Speaker 6>was part of this thing with a drug dealer, Reuben

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<v Speaker 6>Brian died and Ray had nothing, Oh my god, I've

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<v Speaker 6>got an innocent man, you know. Plus the trial had

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<v Speaker 6>stuff in it that was science fiction. I mean, a

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<v Speaker 6>trial in the United States is the quot criminal trial?

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<v Speaker 6>Actually criminal or civil? You're supposed to have discovery first?

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<v Speaker 6>Do you think have discovery? That is a clear constitutional violation.

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<v Speaker 6>And he had a first time neophide attorney who is deceased,

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<v Speaker 6>and I don't care. This guy was a moron. So

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<v Speaker 6>when I put it all together and I realized the

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<v Speaker 6>jilted girlfriend was involved with this, and not to mention racism,

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<v Speaker 6>I realized I found an innocent man.

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<v Speaker 5>For those people that don't know, we're talking about his

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<v Speaker 5>ex girlfriend going to this Bryant's house for drugs right

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<v Speaker 5>minutes before there was a home invasion. The gyfriend us

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<v Speaker 5>clears right right.

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<v Speaker 6>For me, go ahead, no, correct, what happens is Ray

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<v Speaker 6>is at his house and the girlfriend comes to the

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<v Speaker 6>house and with these two guys, and she just wants

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<v Speaker 6>to get some heroin, which Ray would have absolutely no

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<v Speaker 6>idea where it is. Because Ray is an athlete. He

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<v Speaker 6>was a bit up to turn a professional as a boxer,

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<v Speaker 6>and he's going to use the money he made from

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<v Speaker 6>boxing to fund his career as an artist and study

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<v Speaker 6>art and so forth. So he had no motive, no means,

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<v Speaker 6>no opportunity. He had alibi witnesses. And she comes over

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<v Speaker 6>and says, hey, these you know, my buddies wanted to

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<v Speaker 6>get heroin, and then she takes them over to Rupin

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<v Speaker 6>Bryant's apartment and then the hold up the purse.

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<v Speaker 5>Hang on, Fred, let's see we've got Ray Gray here,

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<v Speaker 5>connecting again from a skeg in prison.

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<v Speaker 3>If you feel you're being victimized or extorted by this prisoner,

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<v Speaker 3>please contact GTL Customer Service at eight five five four

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<v Speaker 3>sixty six two eight three to two.

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<v Speaker 4>To accept this call. Press zero to refuse this call,

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<v Speaker 4>hang up, or press one to prevent calls from this facility.

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<v Speaker 4>Press six. Your call was not a accepted, Please try

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<v Speaker 4>again later.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, Fred, that's what we get I did the prompts

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<v Speaker 5>properly and they say try again later. So we're having

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<v Speaker 5>problem getting Ray Gray connected here from a skeik in

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<v Speaker 5>prison to be able to spot I.

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<v Speaker 6>Speak to Maybe I can get him connected on to

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<v Speaker 6>my phone here.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, let's just continue with the interview and see if

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<v Speaker 5>we can soldier on here because the interruption will be

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<v Speaker 5>we're talking about the girlfriend and the drugs, and you're

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<v Speaker 5>talking about the alibi he had. Again, he wouldn't have

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<v Speaker 5>had anything to do with heroin. But this is an

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<v Speaker 5>ex girlfriend at this point. This is not his current

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<v Speaker 5>girlfriend as well, to be no, just to get the

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<v Speaker 5>back straight on.

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<v Speaker 6>This, Yeah, this is an ex girlfriend who actually singers

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<v Speaker 6>him to the cops. What happens is, according to the

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<v Speaker 6>records of the case, the girlfriend is to the to

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<v Speaker 6>the to the drug dealer's apartment with her two buddies.

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<v Speaker 6>She goes up alone. There are two women upstairs and

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<v Speaker 6>a couple of kids in that apartment with the drug dealer. Okay,

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<v Speaker 6>so the truth and um and and and so so.

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<v Speaker 6>What happens is there's like a knock at the door,

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<v Speaker 6>and the then the door depending upon which person you're

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<v Speaker 6>talking to, who is in that room, either the girlfriend

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<v Speaker 6>open starts to open the door, or the two guys

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<v Speaker 6>outside break in and they are indeed her two buddies. Okay,

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<v Speaker 6>and they have been identified. Okay. Then one of the

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<v Speaker 6>others deceased is gonna pirron Few and the other guy

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<v Speaker 6>uh is his name is is Charlie and Charlie Later

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<v Speaker 6>what happens is Ray uh is home at the time

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<v Speaker 6>that this all occurs. Eventually there is a fight between

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<v Speaker 6>the drug dealer who's being held at at bay with

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<v Speaker 6>with a gun and one of them, the shorter of

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<v Speaker 6>the two hold up men, who is alleged to his

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<v Speaker 6>Raymond Gray. Well guess what. Gray was practically a professional boxer.

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<v Speaker 6>He would have taken him out with one punch. Instead,

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<v Speaker 6>they pustle and whoever the you know, the gunman is

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00:15:48.039 --> 00:15:54.399
<v Speaker 6>probably probably Charlie, he shoots him. Okay. Anyway, long story short,

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<v Speaker 6>the drug dealer dies, you know. Eventually the cops come

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<v Speaker 6>and all that stuff. The girlfriend goes downtown with them.

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<v Speaker 6>There's a statement and then they drop her off at

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<v Speaker 6>her boyfriend's house that evening after giving a statement, and

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<v Speaker 6>the boyfriend not the boyfriend, the ex boyfriend Ray Gray,

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<v Speaker 6>and Gray is like, what's going on? When she explains

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<v Speaker 6>what happened, and she said, he said, well, who were

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<v Speaker 6>the two guys that broke in with ether? Two guys

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<v Speaker 6>you were here with me? And she wouldn't answer. And

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<v Speaker 6>what happens from that point is about a day later,

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<v Speaker 6>the Costs asked the girlfriend who's the boyfriend. She says

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<v Speaker 6>Ray Gray, And just like that, without having any evidence,

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<v Speaker 6>they arrest him and Gray for the murder of Bud

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<v Speaker 6>and Bryant. That's the whole story. No, no, not one

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<v Speaker 6>piece's evidence. They don't even search us house, they don't

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<v Speaker 6>do nothing, and Greg keeps saying, hey, I didn't do it,

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<v Speaker 6>you know, because.

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<v Speaker 5>An interesting twist in this immediately though, Michael Bryant, the

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<v Speaker 5>brother of Reuben Bryant, is a newly minted Detroit police cadet.

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<v Speaker 5>So it's said that he embarked on a mission to

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<v Speaker 5>avenge his brother's murder. And there is a right on

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<v Speaker 5>Raymond Gray's site he talks about the confrontation he has,

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<v Speaker 5>the conversation he has with Michael Bryant over this murder,

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<v Speaker 5>and clearly what Michael Bryant's intent is. So maybe you

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<v Speaker 5>can just give us a briefing on what that conversation was.

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<v Speaker 6>Sure once Gray, now they don't have he says, I

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<v Speaker 6>didn't do it. Well, you got to have corroborating evidence.

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<v Speaker 6>So one of the standard ways to do that is

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<v Speaker 6>a lineup, and Gray is taken to Grays taken to

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<v Speaker 6>a cell. And that's way the section of Dwayne County

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<v Speaker 6>Jail and the Detroit and anyone comes Michael Bryant, who

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<v Speaker 6>as you say, who's who's the despis's brother of Priest

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<v Speaker 6>Cadet and he says that there's going to be a

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<v Speaker 6>lineup and Grace and Graces, well, that's great because I'll

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<v Speaker 6>be cleared. The Gray says, I don't think so, and

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<v Speaker 6>basically laughs at him. And what happens is there the

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<v Speaker 6>first thing the cops do, and this is what corrupt

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<v Speaker 6>cops do, they did a throwdown, which is where you

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<v Speaker 6>take the mup shots and you find down in front

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<v Speaker 6>of the witness and you say so. They said to

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<v Speaker 6>two of the witnesses that were in the two of

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<v Speaker 6>the two of the women that were in the the apartment,

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<v Speaker 6>the other two women, do you see the dead guy

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<v Speaker 6>here who shot RUVN Bryant? And only one of the

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<v Speaker 6>pictures is that the man with a full man shoe,

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<v Speaker 6>mustache and ran and Gray's hair style and of course

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<v Speaker 6>Raymond Gray. In other words, he's the only guy that

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<v Speaker 6>doesn't look like any of the other guys. It's it's

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<v Speaker 6>a standard floyd that cops use, correct cops to get

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<v Speaker 6>somebody identified. Well, the next thing that happens is there

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<v Speaker 6>is an actual line up, just like you're watching, you know,

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<v Speaker 6>Law in Order SVU, and Raymond Gray is the shortest

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<v Speaker 6>guy there. He was a setaway boxer and all these

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<v Speaker 6>other guys are big, and he's the only one. With

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<v Speaker 6>a few minutes. You must that she gets what two

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<v Speaker 6>women say, Oh he look it looks like he's the one.

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<v Speaker 6>They're not even positive, but it looks like he's the one.

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<v Speaker 6>And on the basis of that, he's indieted and within

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<v Speaker 6>a mark for six weeks or so. And he goes

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<v Speaker 6>to trial on this stupid tourne he decides to go

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<v Speaker 6>for a bench trial with the judge instead of twelve citizens,

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<v Speaker 6>and that will become crucial in terms of what happened.

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<v Speaker 5>You also talk about it, we did, you did mention it.

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<v Speaker 5>But I think we've got to reinforce this lack of

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<v Speaker 5>evidence there is you say, no murder weapons found. There

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<v Speaker 5>is no search of his home, there is any search of.

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<v Speaker 6>The tone, there is no murder weptis found. That there

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<v Speaker 6>is another very important point. There is something here in

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<v Speaker 6>the US called Brady issues, which means that when you're

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<v Speaker 6>going to trial, you can't keep anything behind your back. Okay, Well,

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<v Speaker 6>one of Brady issues was that they they like the

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<v Speaker 6>witness has said that one of the bad guys have

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<v Speaker 6>gone into the bedroom and touched the jar with money

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<v Speaker 6>and put money all. Well, that jaw has been invested

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<v Speaker 6>for princely. Guess what regularly prince went on. Well, whether

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<v Speaker 6>or not the two called us plan how that prints

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<v Speaker 6>on it is another story that that it's not clear,

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<v Speaker 6>but we know for a fact his finger prints they're

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<v Speaker 6>not on back jaw. That money trial, they kept it

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<v Speaker 6>behind her back until two thousand and five. If that

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<v Speaker 6>had been presented at the time of the trial, the

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<v Speaker 6>judge might the city he's not guilty by reasonable gay.

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<v Speaker 6>But that didn't halt. But now you've got you've got

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<v Speaker 6>a lot of stuff going down here. You know you've

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<v Speaker 6>got questionable ID, You've got you know you've got you've

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00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:37.000
<v Speaker 6>got a questionable ide you've got you've got you know,

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<v Speaker 6>when the tops originally rested way, they had a much

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<v Speaker 6>shot with him, and actually they arrest it's somebody another

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<v Speaker 6>block man. And when they realized that they're a mistake,

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00:21:50.119 --> 00:21:52.240
<v Speaker 6>they said, oh, well you know, I mean, you know,

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<v Speaker 6>you know they basically they said something along the lines

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<v Speaker 6>said well, you know it's the world block guy, using

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<v Speaker 6>a different term, and then they put Rayant the cost.

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<v Speaker 6>You see what follow there's no evidence whatsoever. And then

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<v Speaker 6>another justice is my motives, there's no opportunity. It is

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<v Speaker 6>one of the biggest Uh, it is the biggest mischarage

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<v Speaker 6>to justice.

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<v Speaker 5>I certainly you talk about trial as way as well

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<v Speaker 5>that the Michael Bryant, the some of the people that

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00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:34.480
<v Speaker 5>didn't weren't able to identify Ray Gray whatsoever, suddenly at

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00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:40.559
<v Speaker 5>trial were able to identify him positively. So what Ray

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<v Speaker 5>Gray and supporters contend is that there was some coaching

359
00:22:44.680 --> 00:22:48.079
<v Speaker 5>in there by the police or Michael Bryant or both

360
00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:49.880
<v Speaker 5>in so that.

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00:22:50.200 --> 00:22:54.480
<v Speaker 2>That Judy was boring. Hello, then Judy discovered jumper casino

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<v Speaker 5>Testimony became much different from the beginning to the time

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<v Speaker 5>at we're ready for trial. Isn't that true?

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<v Speaker 6>Well, very possible, Yeah, very very possible. And uh, it

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<v Speaker 6>can't emphasize enough that this is a bench trial. So

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<v Speaker 6>even though Ray has a half a dozen witnesses and

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<v Speaker 6>said he was home at the time for some reason,

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<v Speaker 6>the judge decides not to believe them, you know it

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<v Speaker 6>doesn't never explain it, no, nothing, and uh and and

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00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:56.839
<v Speaker 6>just finds him guilty. And he does say at the

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<v Speaker 6>time when he sentences him, the name was Judge Irving Rabbits.

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<v Speaker 6>He does say that he wishes that he didn't have

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<v Speaker 6>to give him the book, you know, to the limit,

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00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:08.519
<v Speaker 6>which was life, because he didn't think he deserved it,

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00:24:08.680 --> 00:24:14.079
<v Speaker 6>but he did it anyway, And so you know, you know,

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<v Speaker 6>I think the crime was called felony murder. You know,

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00:24:16.920 --> 00:24:20.440
<v Speaker 6>every state holds it differently, but essentially, you know, it's

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<v Speaker 6>a murder one conviction, you know what I mean. And

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<v Speaker 6>it happens that Michigan is a very very conservative state.

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<v Speaker 6>It's very very difficult, I mean, to get the truth

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<v Speaker 6>out when you are victimized by the criminal justice system,

392
00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:42.160
<v Speaker 6>as Raymond Gray has.

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<v Speaker 5>Been immediately after this decision. I know it's now forty

394
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<v Speaker 5>four years and things like innocence projects forty four years ago.

395
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<v Speaker 5>I mean, I'm not an authority on this, but I

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<v Speaker 5>would think that the momentum from the innocent projects throughout

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<v Speaker 5>the United States has been more recent than forty four years.

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<v Speaker 5>I would think, yes. But with those trials, with those

399
00:25:11.640 --> 00:25:16.279
<v Speaker 5>a pardon me, those appeal trials, potentially there is an

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<v Speaker 5>opportunity to review and there are people that could line

401
00:25:19.480 --> 00:25:22.319
<v Speaker 5>up behind ray Ray to support him and his bid

402
00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:28.519
<v Speaker 5>to have for a successful appeal and retrial. Immediately after

403
00:25:28.599 --> 00:25:33.359
<v Speaker 5>this trial, what was that effort? What was that effort

404
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:34.799
<v Speaker 5>like or not like?

405
00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:40.160
<v Speaker 6>It's a great question. I've asked myself that question too,

406
00:25:41.240 --> 00:25:49.480
<v Speaker 6>immediately after and stuff, you know, and going forward, there

407
00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:56.640
<v Speaker 6>were immediately after the trial, there was there were a

408
00:25:56.799 --> 00:25:59.480
<v Speaker 6>couple of uh this I recalled, or a couple of

409
00:25:59.559 --> 00:26:03.359
<v Speaker 6>local appeals. But he it all costs money, you know,

410
00:26:04.799 --> 00:26:10.359
<v Speaker 6>and eventually though you know, it all costs money. But

411
00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:18.400
<v Speaker 6>eventually what happened was, uh, those first couple of attempts failed.

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<v Speaker 6>Of course, that's number one. There was. I can't find anybody,

413
00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:35.599
<v Speaker 6>frankly that I would term a really terrific lawyer on

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<v Speaker 6>on on this case.

415
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<v Speaker 9>You know what I mean. I I the lawyer.

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<v Speaker 6>The Loytering wasn't the best in the world, but he

417
00:26:44.599 --> 00:26:47.880
<v Speaker 6>did get managed to get a couple of people to

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00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:53.680
<v Speaker 6>work on appeals. And what happened was, and oh, I

419
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<v Speaker 6>guess it would be goof sometime in the late seventies earlier, yeah,

420
00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:05.799
<v Speaker 6>late seventies. What changes is this Ray meets bar Brinhart

421
00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:08.480
<v Speaker 6>and they fall in love and she's an art teacher

422
00:27:08.599 --> 00:27:13.240
<v Speaker 6>behind bars and they start to work together. So now

423
00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:16.400
<v Speaker 6>he's got somebody behind him one hundred and ten percent

424
00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:21.119
<v Speaker 6>and they and so they get an attorney and they

425
00:27:21.160 --> 00:27:23.960
<v Speaker 6>start working on us. And while this is going on,

426
00:27:25.480 --> 00:27:28.920
<v Speaker 6>and this is about those seven years after Ray has gone,

427
00:27:29.160 --> 00:27:33.200
<v Speaker 6>you know, behind the walls. Charlie Matthews, one of the

428
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:36.400
<v Speaker 6>alleged holdup men, comes behind bars in the prison that

429
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:40.640
<v Speaker 6>he's at the ray season in the yard, says to him,

430
00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:44.440
<v Speaker 6>I'm here because they think I'm you, and Charlie agrees

431
00:27:44.519 --> 00:27:46.599
<v Speaker 6>to give him an affi. David saying that he is

432
00:27:46.680 --> 00:27:49.160
<v Speaker 6>one of the hold of men, not that he killed

433
00:27:49.240 --> 00:27:50.920
<v Speaker 6>Ruben Bryant, but he's one of the hold of men

434
00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:56.519
<v Speaker 6>with tyrone Pugh gives him an affidavit, and then the

435
00:27:56.599 --> 00:28:00.119
<v Speaker 6>attorney raised attorney at the time and Barb Pray go

436
00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:03.160
<v Speaker 6>into court. But Judge Rabbits, the same trial judge that

437
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:09.160
<v Speaker 6>convicted Ready, and they want to introduce this new evidence,

438
00:28:09.559 --> 00:28:15.319
<v Speaker 6>and they put Matthews on the stand and Matthews is

439
00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:19.319
<v Speaker 6>then cautioned by the district attorney that if he said,

440
00:28:19.400 --> 00:28:22.680
<v Speaker 6>if he cops to a crime like participating in a murder,

441
00:28:23.279 --> 00:28:25.640
<v Speaker 6>he's going to get prosecuted for the fullest limits of

442
00:28:25.720 --> 00:28:29.920
<v Speaker 6>the war and will not give him immunity. So Matthews

443
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:32.960
<v Speaker 6>keeps his mouth shut, the affidavit doesn't get introduced as evidence,

444
00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:38.359
<v Speaker 6>and where he goes back to gil That's what happened. Gee,

445
00:28:39.160 --> 00:28:43.519
<v Speaker 6>sounds sort of convenient, doesn't it? Nice? Nice way to

446
00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:44.559
<v Speaker 6>cover up the truth?

447
00:28:49.720 --> 00:28:53.759
<v Speaker 5>Well, it does seem to be the solved problem. In effect,

448
00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:57.400
<v Speaker 5>it's a suppression of that new evidence. And it's also

449
00:28:59.880 --> 00:29:04.240
<v Speaker 5>again just the refusal to look at something once the

450
00:29:04.359 --> 00:29:07.400
<v Speaker 5>courts have made that conviction in their own we'll say

451
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:10.480
<v Speaker 5>neighborhood for lack of a better term. They don't want

452
00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:16.279
<v Speaker 5>somebody overturning something and seeing this glaring example of injustice.

453
00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:21.720
<v Speaker 6>Exactly now, exactly you talked about.

454
00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:27.279
<v Speaker 5>You talked about this affidavit though from Charlie Matthews. So

455
00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:32.279
<v Speaker 5>this is very powerful. Does this Affidavid and this effort

456
00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:37.240
<v Speaker 5>lead to any other effort than any other supporters coming

457
00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:39.640
<v Speaker 5>forward for on behalf of Great Ray.

458
00:29:40.680 --> 00:29:46.400
<v Speaker 6>Now let me answer your qu You know, if this

459
00:29:46.599 --> 00:29:50.519
<v Speaker 6>was anybody else, I would couch what I say. But

460
00:29:50.599 --> 00:29:53.160
<v Speaker 6>when I'm on your show, Dan, I just say it

461
00:29:53.240 --> 00:29:58.960
<v Speaker 6>the way it is, okay, And and honestly, you know,

462
00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:01.240
<v Speaker 6>I mean, because that's way to go. I'm not you know,

463
00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:07.000
<v Speaker 6>I certainly don't want to send anybody. But what happened

464
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:12.160
<v Speaker 6>was okay, I'll just tell you what happened was somebody

465
00:30:12.279 --> 00:30:17.920
<v Speaker 6>somebody got involved at one point m m who was

466
00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:23.480
<v Speaker 6>a journalist in Michigan, who got a lawyer involved. Pro

467
00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:26.160
<v Speaker 6>bonum point. I'm on the case. So in other words,

468
00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:31.119
<v Speaker 6>we're talking about something that happened in seven years ago,

469
00:30:31.519 --> 00:30:35.680
<v Speaker 6>eight years ago, and uh so what happens is this.

470
00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:40.039
<v Speaker 6>But I was under the impression that when when I

471
00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:45.000
<v Speaker 6>was told that this individual was was raised lawyer. So,

472
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:49.079
<v Speaker 6>you know, foolish me. I. I always think that if

473
00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:53.039
<v Speaker 6>somebody's somebody's lawyer, you signed a contract. Ray never signed

474
00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:56.960
<v Speaker 6>a contract, Okay. I just assumed that this was a

475
00:30:57.039 --> 00:30:59.519
<v Speaker 6>pro bona attorney. It turned out this person was just

476
00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:03.720
<v Speaker 6>based you know, somebody looking you know it was it

477
00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:06.680
<v Speaker 6>was a high priced attorney with a big public profile.

478
00:31:06.759 --> 00:31:10.039
<v Speaker 6>It was was looking to to feed off this Well,

479
00:31:10.119 --> 00:31:16.000
<v Speaker 6>that happened quite frankly. On more than one occasion, attorneys would.

480
00:31:15.799 --> 00:31:17.839
<v Speaker 9>Get involved pro bono.

481
00:31:17.960 --> 00:31:21.839
<v Speaker 6>They'd stay on for five minutes and then they were offered. Finally,

482
00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:25.440
<v Speaker 6>the Michigan the Michigan Innocence Project at the University of

483
00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:28.319
<v Speaker 6>Michigan took up race case about oh about a year

484
00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:32.400
<v Speaker 6>and a half ago. Okay. Now, most of these innocence projects,

485
00:31:32.440 --> 00:31:35.119
<v Speaker 6>as you know, Dan, they would rely on DNA. Race

486
00:31:35.160 --> 00:31:38.480
<v Speaker 6>cases got nothing to do with DNA. It's old fashioned

487
00:31:38.519 --> 00:31:43.559
<v Speaker 6>detective work. Well so, but the Michigan Innocence project is

488
00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:46.279
<v Speaker 6>not DNA per se. It's you know, it's you know,

489
00:31:46.599 --> 00:31:48.359
<v Speaker 6>it's you know, it's a law school and you know,

490
00:31:48.440 --> 00:31:50.559
<v Speaker 6>you get the students involved and so forth and so on.

491
00:31:51.759 --> 00:31:54.799
<v Speaker 6>And eventually they looked into it and they would not

492
00:31:54.920 --> 00:32:00.440
<v Speaker 6>take his case. And what I heard through through liiable

493
00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:03.680
<v Speaker 6>second party was that they felt it was too complicated

494
00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:09.240
<v Speaker 6>and too old. Right now, now, I don't understand that,

495
00:32:10.400 --> 00:32:15.480
<v Speaker 6>because last time I looked, you know, yes, there's got

496
00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:18.720
<v Speaker 6>to you know, there's got to be constitutional limitations, just

497
00:32:18.799 --> 00:32:22.559
<v Speaker 6>like this crown limitations on when you can file document,

498
00:32:23.559 --> 00:32:27.079
<v Speaker 6>but you know, legally, but there's got to be something

499
00:32:27.240 --> 00:32:30.519
<v Speaker 6>not to mention the fact that what kind of criminal

500
00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:33.519
<v Speaker 6>justice system allows an innocent man to stay in jail

501
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:42.480
<v Speaker 6>when there's evidence, extulpatory evidence to prove he didn't do it? Sure,

502
00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:46.240
<v Speaker 6>you know, So it's it's it's it's you know. And

503
00:32:46.519 --> 00:32:52.599
<v Speaker 6>and the frustrating part is this that he Ray did

504
00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:56.359
<v Speaker 6>have a parole hearing in twenty ten. This was the

505
00:32:56.400 --> 00:32:58.960
<v Speaker 6>first time I met Ray grand person. I met him

506
00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:03.640
<v Speaker 6>in shackles and handcuffs. We were in a prison in Michigan.

507
00:33:04.039 --> 00:33:07.599
<v Speaker 6>Had the parole board individual conducting the hearing chose not

508
00:33:07.799 --> 00:33:10.400
<v Speaker 6>to concentrate on what he was supposed to according to

509
00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:12.640
<v Speaker 6>the regulations, which was what Ray would do when he

510
00:33:12.680 --> 00:33:15.640
<v Speaker 6>got out of jail and so forth, you know, where

511
00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:18.000
<v Speaker 6>he lived, what he'd do, and and all that stuff

512
00:33:18.119 --> 00:33:20.519
<v Speaker 6>was taken care of. He's the painting, for God's sake,

513
00:33:20.559 --> 00:33:23.519
<v Speaker 6>because his painting, you know, is people wanted to paint

514
00:33:23.559 --> 00:33:27.880
<v Speaker 6>for money. Well, this guy's thought didn't like the fact

515
00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:32.920
<v Speaker 6>that Ray Gray has done something that very few people. Well,

516
00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:36.319
<v Speaker 6>Ray Gray refuses to say that he thought he did it.

517
00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:38.359
<v Speaker 6>If Ray Gray had said he did it a long

518
00:33:38.440 --> 00:33:41.960
<v Speaker 6>time ago, be out. But part of the bubility of

519
00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:46.279
<v Speaker 6>the of the parole and commutation process is the prisoner

520
00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:49.559
<v Speaker 6>taking responsibility for their crimes. Well, how do you take

521
00:33:49.599 --> 00:33:52.599
<v Speaker 6>responsibility for crime for something he didn't do. Ray will

522
00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:55.000
<v Speaker 6>not admit that he did something wrong when he didn't

523
00:33:55.079 --> 00:33:59.079
<v Speaker 6>do it. And this particular individual with the parole board

524
00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:05.519
<v Speaker 6>cast negated him verbally to the point that I should

525
00:34:05.559 --> 00:34:07.680
<v Speaker 6>have stood up and said something, and I didn't. He

526
00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:11.360
<v Speaker 6>was abusing him verbally, screaming at the guy. I mean,

527
00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:16.199
<v Speaker 6>it was unbelievable, you know, I actually actually in retrospect,

528
00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:18.719
<v Speaker 6>you know, and this was you know, twenty ten. The

529
00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:22.039
<v Speaker 6>people had, you know, cameras, you know, phone cameras, but

530
00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:24.960
<v Speaker 6>for some reason, nobody shot. I don't remember what happened.

531
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:27.599
<v Speaker 6>I don't remember if we checked our cameras at the

532
00:34:27.960 --> 00:34:30.440
<v Speaker 6>door or whatever it might have been, you know, but

533
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:34.320
<v Speaker 6>it was it was a very difficult situation. And of

534
00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:36.840
<v Speaker 6>course they didn't give him parole. And that's the that's

535
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:39.079
<v Speaker 6>basically the you know, he came up for parole again

536
00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:41.920
<v Speaker 6>a couple of months ago. They turned him down. They

537
00:34:42.199 --> 00:34:45.519
<v Speaker 6>didn't even have a hearing this turned him down. You know,

538
00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:47.400
<v Speaker 6>they passed a note into his cell.

539
00:34:48.679 --> 00:34:52.480
<v Speaker 5>Wow, what did they turn him down? What were the

540
00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:53.440
<v Speaker 5>grounds this time?

541
00:34:55.079 --> 00:34:56.960
<v Speaker 6>They don't have They don't know, they don't they don't

542
00:34:57.039 --> 00:34:59.880
<v Speaker 6>have to give the grounds. There's no grounds. They just say, what,

543
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:02.480
<v Speaker 6>we're not interested. We're not going to even consider you, buddy.

544
00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:07.760
<v Speaker 6>That's basically what they said. And you know, within the

545
00:35:08.440 --> 00:35:10.840
<v Speaker 6>you know, the the I think there's a lot of

546
00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:14.039
<v Speaker 6>people that know Ray is innocent, okay, within the system,

547
00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:18.000
<v Speaker 6>but you know, but they there's nothing they can do

548
00:35:18.119 --> 00:35:21.239
<v Speaker 6>about it, you know, unless somebody in the parobo would

549
00:35:21.239 --> 00:35:24.239
<v Speaker 6>they would do the right thing. You know, But we're

550
00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:27.239
<v Speaker 6>talking about a state that poisons its own citizens. In Flint,

551
00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:30.679
<v Speaker 6>Michigan with it with its river water. So you know

552
00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:33.679
<v Speaker 6>we're talking. You know, there's there's you know, there's a

553
00:35:33.719 --> 00:35:37.079
<v Speaker 6>lot of stuff going on here politically that influences the

554
00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:40.079
<v Speaker 6>decision whether to release a fellow like Ray Ray or not.

555
00:35:41.599 --> 00:35:45.880
<v Speaker 5>Certainly you talk politically. What about the petition to Governor

556
00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:49.519
<v Speaker 5>Rick Snyder, State of Michigan and that was not that

557
00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:53.360
<v Speaker 5>long ago. What about that bid to have a petition

558
00:35:53.559 --> 00:35:54.880
<v Speaker 5>to Governor Rick Snyder?

559
00:35:56.199 --> 00:35:59.480
<v Speaker 6>Well, uh, we have an online petition to free Ray Gray,

560
00:35:59.639 --> 00:36:04.280
<v Speaker 6>what will you know? And it went to the governor

561
00:36:04.360 --> 00:36:07.880
<v Speaker 6>and that they didn't care. They just actually went to

562
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:10.760
<v Speaker 6>the It went to the governor and it also went

563
00:36:10.840 --> 00:36:14.320
<v Speaker 6>to the parole board. They basically just said they acknowledged

564
00:36:14.440 --> 00:36:17.639
<v Speaker 6>receipt and that was all they did. And then they

565
00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:22.079
<v Speaker 6>just turned this stamp and there's been never been an

566
00:36:22.119 --> 00:36:28.239
<v Speaker 6>acknowledgment from the governor of receiving it. So it's it's

567
00:36:28.639 --> 00:36:31.239
<v Speaker 6>you know, it's still there. I mean, you know the

568
00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:35.159
<v Speaker 6>best way to get Ray out is to pursue a

569
00:36:35.320 --> 00:36:37.559
<v Speaker 6>legal case. If we could find an attorney that would

570
00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:42.079
<v Speaker 6>work pro bono, I think we could we could proceed

571
00:36:42.280 --> 00:36:46.599
<v Speaker 6>very quickly, quite tranquily, especially with the support of good

572
00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:47.239
<v Speaker 6>people like you.

573
00:36:47.239 --> 00:36:53.039
<v Speaker 5>You talk about getting the necessary money, and we did

574
00:36:53.199 --> 00:36:57.079
<v Speaker 5>talk about how important to this story because it led

575
00:36:57.199 --> 00:37:01.719
<v Speaker 5>you to Great Gray is the artwork of Rape Ray.

576
00:37:01.760 --> 00:37:05.039
<v Speaker 5>And there is yes, a little bit of the artwork

577
00:37:05.599 --> 00:37:08.079
<v Speaker 5>on the show description of this for people to see

578
00:37:08.159 --> 00:37:10.400
<v Speaker 5>later after they listened to it, before they listen to this,

579
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:12.480
<v Speaker 5>they'll see that or now they'll know that that's what

580
00:37:12.639 --> 00:37:16.480
<v Speaker 5>that is. And he has been raising money and making

581
00:37:16.599 --> 00:37:23.199
<v Speaker 5>money from art forever. Well, maybe we can talk about

582
00:37:23.239 --> 00:37:28.000
<v Speaker 5>that a little bit later, but we want to talk

583
00:37:28.039 --> 00:37:31.519
<v Speaker 5>about his art as well and how important that is

584
00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:38.079
<v Speaker 5>in somehow surviving the roller coaster ride of emotions but

585
00:37:38.199 --> 00:37:43.000
<v Speaker 5>also the depths of despair of what forty four years

586
00:37:44.360 --> 00:37:44.960
<v Speaker 5>due to a man.

587
00:37:46.079 --> 00:37:48.719
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, I can tell Yeah, he's told me about that.

588
00:37:49.400 --> 00:37:55.079
<v Speaker 6>I can. Maybe I should talk about that. Sure, I

589
00:37:55.199 --> 00:37:58.199
<v Speaker 6>seem to be in the situation of actually speaking for

590
00:37:58.320 --> 00:38:03.639
<v Speaker 6>him today and it's not unusual for me. Uh, I'm

591
00:38:03.679 --> 00:38:06.199
<v Speaker 6>not totally surprised there was a difficulty with the call

592
00:38:06.280 --> 00:38:13.239
<v Speaker 6>and maybe but as far as the Ray's work, uh,

593
00:38:13.559 --> 00:38:17.159
<v Speaker 6>Rays explained to me that christ Christopherson, you know, like

594
00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:23.000
<v Speaker 6>his he's got a first, he's got a TV. You know,

595
00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:26.360
<v Speaker 6>I'm like, excuse me, you got a TV set, but

596
00:38:26.599 --> 00:38:32.079
<v Speaker 6>you got cable they charge you, you know, and uh,

597
00:38:32.440 --> 00:38:37.199
<v Speaker 6>he's got a TV and he paints in his cell

598
00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:41.000
<v Speaker 6>and what And I would say, well, what's going on here?

599
00:38:41.159 --> 00:38:49.639
<v Speaker 6>Is that his work, you know, his work helps him

600
00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:54.199
<v Speaker 6>cope with this. And to me, it's unbelievable because if

601
00:38:54.239 --> 00:38:59.920
<v Speaker 6>it was me, I would have succumbed to depression longer,

602
00:39:01.400 --> 00:39:07.800
<v Speaker 6>long ago. I So I just can't believe, you know,

603
00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:12.760
<v Speaker 6>how he's maintained his sanity with everything that's going on,

604
00:39:13.639 --> 00:39:18.239
<v Speaker 6>you know, but by painting, it helps.

605
00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:18.920
<v Speaker 9>Him stay connected.

606
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:23.960
<v Speaker 6>That to him is the thing more than anything else

607
00:39:24.440 --> 00:39:33.280
<v Speaker 6>that you know, helps him get through the night. Ah. Actually,

608
00:39:33.440 --> 00:39:35.239
<v Speaker 6>if I can find it here, I can even read

609
00:39:35.320 --> 00:39:38.480
<v Speaker 6>your quote. But that's what helps him get through the night,

610
00:39:38.559 --> 00:39:42.480
<v Speaker 6>you know what I mean. And he's always wanted to

611
00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:50.639
<v Speaker 6>be a painter. And again that's why the whole again,

612
00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:56.880
<v Speaker 6>there is no there is no there was no motive

613
00:39:57.320 --> 00:39:59.519
<v Speaker 6>you know for what he did. That that's what I

614
00:39:59.599 --> 00:40:04.400
<v Speaker 6>was trying to did. There was no motive for what

615
00:40:04.519 --> 00:40:08.119
<v Speaker 6>he did. You know, here's a guy who wants to

616
00:40:08.199 --> 00:40:11.239
<v Speaker 6>you know, become an artist and a professional fighter and

617
00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:14.400
<v Speaker 6>all of that stuff. Here's what he says. He says,

618
00:40:14.480 --> 00:40:18.360
<v Speaker 6>I wrote this in an article for the lineup. The

619
00:40:18.519 --> 00:40:20.800
<v Speaker 6>artists helped me in many ways, for it allows me

620
00:40:20.920 --> 00:40:23.920
<v Speaker 6>to express some of my deepest inner feelings and on

621
00:40:24.039 --> 00:40:27.239
<v Speaker 6>another level, created a world much different from this one.

622
00:40:28.159 --> 00:40:32.079
<v Speaker 6>A form of escapism, I suppose, However, I try to

623
00:40:32.159 --> 00:40:35.679
<v Speaker 6>address world events also, despite where I'm at, to still

624
00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:38.000
<v Speaker 6>try and be aware of what's going on in the

625
00:40:38.079 --> 00:40:41.119
<v Speaker 6>world at large. To know that some of my work

626
00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:44.400
<v Speaker 6>is on people's walls that I don't even know some

627
00:40:44.559 --> 00:40:46.679
<v Speaker 6>in other countries is a good feeling. And that by

628
00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:50.559
<v Speaker 6>way of my art, and that by way of my art,

629
00:40:50.679 --> 00:40:53.480
<v Speaker 6>I was able to meet and marry my parp. I'm

630
00:40:53.559 --> 00:40:55.960
<v Speaker 6>thankful for that. It's pretty eloquent.

631
00:40:57.599 --> 00:41:00.840
<v Speaker 5>Absolutely, we'll get to use it. That is just a

632
00:41:02.079 --> 00:41:04.960
<v Speaker 5>sorry fred Wick diseases as a moment to stop about

633
00:41:05.039 --> 00:41:07.880
<v Speaker 5>and talk about the sponsor of our program tonight, Brooklyn,

634
00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:11.159
<v Speaker 5>and we're gonna come right back and talk about Ray Gray,

635
00:41:11.840 --> 00:41:16.400
<v Speaker 5>some of his art and the fight to free Ray Gray. Now,

636
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640
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674
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<v Speaker 5>These are the best sheets ever. Sorry for interrupting you, Fred.

675
00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:51.239
<v Speaker 5>Let's talk now about more about Ray Gray and his artwork.

676
00:43:51.519 --> 00:43:54.480
<v Speaker 5>We didn't really describe. I wanted to ask you what

677
00:43:54.679 --> 00:43:59.159
<v Speaker 5>you felt, and you thought, given the circumstances and the

678
00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:02.840
<v Speaker 5>predicament that Ray Ray has been in for all these years,

679
00:44:03.559 --> 00:44:08.199
<v Speaker 5>what were you surprised at the artwork of Ray Ray?

680
00:44:10.039 --> 00:44:14.480
<v Speaker 6>Yes, I was because I didn't know what to expect.

681
00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:18.079
<v Speaker 6>I thought it was just gonna be one of those

682
00:44:18.159 --> 00:44:21.440
<v Speaker 6>sensationalistic kind of things where some dude behind.

683
00:44:21.239 --> 00:44:24.400
<v Speaker 9>Bars, you know, drawers a little bit.

684
00:44:24.679 --> 00:44:31.000
<v Speaker 6>You know. I wasn't expecting the level of artistic presentation,

685
00:44:31.639 --> 00:44:36.840
<v Speaker 6>not to mention professionalism, I just wasn't expecting it. Plus,

686
00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:40.840
<v Speaker 6>I you know, what gets me about his stuff is, uh,

687
00:44:41.800 --> 00:44:46.599
<v Speaker 6>particularly some of his later stuff. He's really funny and

688
00:44:47.039 --> 00:44:50.000
<v Speaker 6>and you know, he's got a couple of you know,

689
00:44:50.079 --> 00:44:54.639
<v Speaker 6>he's got a couple of paintings where you know, what

690
00:44:54.719 --> 00:44:57.119
<v Speaker 6>do you call it a spaceman going up in space?

691
00:44:57.440 --> 00:45:01.000
<v Speaker 6>You know, and and you know when if they land

692
00:45:01.039 --> 00:45:03.280
<v Speaker 6>on some planet and the and the aliens, you know,

693
00:45:03.880 --> 00:45:09.679
<v Speaker 6>character sign we don't want aliens here, you know. I

694
00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:13.599
<v Speaker 6>mean again, there's a good example of Ray's you know,

695
00:45:14.079 --> 00:45:18.320
<v Speaker 6>keeping up with me. I mean you know that you know,

696
00:45:18.400 --> 00:45:22.840
<v Speaker 6>and that that is is due to television, But the

697
00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:29.360
<v Speaker 6>level of professionalism, the level of feeling, you know, I'm

698
00:45:29.400 --> 00:45:31.360
<v Speaker 6>not I'm not a book. I'm not a you know,

699
00:45:31.480 --> 00:45:33.800
<v Speaker 6>an art person. I mean I I don't know art

700
00:45:33.880 --> 00:45:39.039
<v Speaker 6>that well, but I tend to go more with impressionistic stuff.

701
00:45:39.239 --> 00:45:43.360
<v Speaker 6>But he, uh, he gets a lot of emotion into

702
00:45:43.440 --> 00:45:48.840
<v Speaker 6>what he does, thank god, you know. And I gotta wonder,

703
00:45:49.079 --> 00:45:52.559
<v Speaker 6>just like John Rescoe, what would happen if Raymond Gray

704
00:45:52.719 --> 00:45:57.239
<v Speaker 6>got the opportunity to paint in a regular studio. Help

705
00:45:57.400 --> 00:45:59.239
<v Speaker 6>it doesn't have to be a studio. I mean, he's

706
00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:02.199
<v Speaker 6>got an apartment with his wife. You know, there's a

707
00:46:02.239 --> 00:46:05.360
<v Speaker 6>separate room he can paint in. You know, he's he's

708
00:46:05.400 --> 00:46:08.320
<v Speaker 6>gotten offers to do uh, he's done book covers, he

709
00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:12.760
<v Speaker 6>covers from me. He's he's uh, you know, obviously a portraitist. Uh,

710
00:46:13.159 --> 00:46:18.239
<v Speaker 6>et cetera, et cetera. What how how can you know that?

711
00:46:18.480 --> 00:46:22.840
<v Speaker 6>That's of course, the the conundrum, which is, it's not

712
00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:27.079
<v Speaker 6>just the fact that the guy's talented, but it's the

713
00:46:27.159 --> 00:46:31.639
<v Speaker 6>fact that he's talented and he's innocent, and you put

714
00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:36.119
<v Speaker 6>those two things together. How powerful would that be in

715
00:46:36.239 --> 00:46:39.880
<v Speaker 6>a civilian population? If he if he was out, he'd

716
00:46:39.920 --> 00:46:42.079
<v Speaker 6>be able to work with not only would he be

717
00:46:42.119 --> 00:46:44.880
<v Speaker 6>able to do his art, he'd be able to work

718
00:46:44.960 --> 00:46:49.320
<v Speaker 6>with disadvantaged youth, you know, things like that. You see

719
00:46:49.320 --> 00:46:55.599
<v Speaker 6>what I'm saying, and and and so the work itself. Uh.

720
00:46:55.639 --> 00:46:57.840
<v Speaker 6>And by the way, he's also one of his friends

721
00:46:58.320 --> 00:47:04.360
<v Speaker 6>is Bill Messner loves And I'm mentioning this because also

722
00:47:04.440 --> 00:47:06.760
<v Speaker 6>Bill is also a friend of mine. And Bill just

723
00:47:06.840 --> 00:47:10.880
<v Speaker 6>won the Finger Award from Comic Con.

724
00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:11.800
<v Speaker 9>It's a big award.

725
00:47:11.920 --> 00:47:17.480
<v Speaker 6>And the reason is now just to let fewer listeners in.

726
00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:21.800
<v Speaker 6>Dan and I are both Marvel fans. Well, Bill Messner

727
00:47:21.880 --> 00:47:27.400
<v Speaker 6>Loebe wrote Wonder Woman during the nineteen eighties, and so

728
00:47:28.519 --> 00:47:31.199
<v Speaker 6>he is going to try and get Ray also into

729
00:47:31.320 --> 00:47:34.559
<v Speaker 6>doing comic books. So there's a lot of stuff that

730
00:47:34.719 --> 00:47:36.840
<v Speaker 6>Ray could be doing if he was out and he's

731
00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:39.719
<v Speaker 6>able to adapt into these various areas.

732
00:47:42.840 --> 00:47:45.119
<v Speaker 5>Why I mentioned this as well is because we talked

733
00:47:45.639 --> 00:47:49.480
<v Speaker 5>about the again the importance of who Rey Gray was

734
00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:51.840
<v Speaker 5>and who Ray Gray is, and that is that he

735
00:47:52.239 --> 00:47:56.559
<v Speaker 5>is an artist. And we talked about raising money, the

736
00:47:56.679 --> 00:47:59.360
<v Speaker 5>incredible amount of money that you always need for better

737
00:47:59.400 --> 00:48:02.280
<v Speaker 5>and better. Lowyal is to try to appeal this, which

738
00:48:02.360 --> 00:48:05.719
<v Speaker 5>costs even more money than probably originally obviously it would

739
00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:09.639
<v Speaker 5>have cost had he had the right representation. So one

740
00:48:09.679 --> 00:48:12.880
<v Speaker 5>way of supporting this man is. There is no book

741
00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:17.119
<v Speaker 5>as of yet about chronicling his story, but there is

742
00:48:17.239 --> 00:48:21.760
<v Speaker 5>fantastic art for people to look at. And this is

743
00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:25.079
<v Speaker 5>the best way to support him as a as a

744
00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:29.199
<v Speaker 5>human being period we can take and consider.

745
00:48:29.360 --> 00:48:32.599
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, yeah, and you know, and and and if someone

746
00:48:32.719 --> 00:48:35.559
<v Speaker 6>we're interested in buying something of raise either you know,

747
00:48:36.119 --> 00:48:38.159
<v Speaker 6>you know, just go online and you can contact me

748
00:48:38.320 --> 00:48:42.360
<v Speaker 6>through Facebook or any of the you know, uh, you know,

749
00:48:43.360 --> 00:48:47.760
<v Speaker 6>contact me through your show, whatever it might be. You know,

750
00:48:47.880 --> 00:48:51.719
<v Speaker 6>the Facebook page, great Gray, you know. And and yeah,

751
00:48:51.800 --> 00:48:54.480
<v Speaker 6>that's a great idea. I honestly, I hadn't even thought

752
00:48:54.519 --> 00:48:58.400
<v Speaker 6>of it because you know, it's it's not like the guys,

753
00:48:58.559 --> 00:49:01.440
<v Speaker 6>you know, they can a huge amount of money and stuff.

754
00:49:02.320 --> 00:49:07.079
<v Speaker 6>There's also there's also issues of involved in what do

755
00:49:07.159 --> 00:49:12.280
<v Speaker 6>you call it? You know, when you're a prisoner, you

756
00:49:12.440 --> 00:49:14.480
<v Speaker 6>can't you know, you've got to put it all through

757
00:49:14.559 --> 00:49:18.119
<v Speaker 6>somebody else. You're not supposed to make money, you know,

758
00:49:18.239 --> 00:49:20.679
<v Speaker 6>so you have to you know, you have to set

759
00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:24.599
<v Speaker 6>things up differently, I legally, at least in Mischig, at

760
00:49:24.679 --> 00:49:26.920
<v Speaker 6>least in Michigan, you do. But it would be wonderful

761
00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:30.159
<v Speaker 6>if people could help support in that way. Also if

762
00:49:30.159 --> 00:49:36.079
<v Speaker 6>anybody has a recommendation for a Michigan attorney, you know,

763
00:49:36.360 --> 00:49:39.880
<v Speaker 6>because we've got a situation here where we're ready to go,

764
00:49:40.159 --> 00:49:42.079
<v Speaker 6>but we just we just don't have the bread.

765
00:49:45.760 --> 00:49:49.199
<v Speaker 5>It's incredible too to realize that at twenty one or

766
00:49:49.280 --> 00:49:53.800
<v Speaker 5>twenty two years old, Ray Ray was imprisoned, so his

767
00:49:54.039 --> 00:49:56.360
<v Speaker 5>entire life in forty four years. And why I say

768
00:49:56.400 --> 00:49:59.639
<v Speaker 5>this too, is is that if you look at just

769
00:49:59.840 --> 00:50:04.519
<v Speaker 5>a few examples of his artwork, it's so optimistic. It's bright,

770
00:50:04.719 --> 00:50:09.239
<v Speaker 5>it's positive, it's there's the unique style. But it also

771
00:50:10.320 --> 00:50:15.079
<v Speaker 5>is quite interesting to see what exudes from this man

772
00:50:15.599 --> 00:50:22.800
<v Speaker 5>despite that forty four years of barbarity. Basically, no matter

773
00:50:22.840 --> 00:50:25.440
<v Speaker 5>how good prison can be or has been for him,

774
00:50:25.639 --> 00:50:30.840
<v Speaker 5>it's no walk in the park. Forty four years, your

775
00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:32.239
<v Speaker 5>entire life in prison.

776
00:50:33.719 --> 00:50:37.159
<v Speaker 6>You've said that so eloquently, Dan, I couldn't say any better.

777
00:50:38.119 --> 00:50:40.000
<v Speaker 6>You know, I'm so close to this. I mean, I

778
00:50:40.360 --> 00:50:43.880
<v Speaker 6>guess it isn't clear. You know, Ray has become a

779
00:50:44.000 --> 00:50:46.320
<v Speaker 6>very close friend of mine, as his wife Park has.

780
00:50:48.280 --> 00:50:52.400
<v Speaker 6>It's you know, it's just what's happened. And you know,

781
00:50:52.599 --> 00:50:55.280
<v Speaker 6>so for me, it's it's I'm trying to get my

782
00:50:55.360 --> 00:50:58.360
<v Speaker 6>friend out of jail. You know, now, if we get

783
00:50:58.440 --> 00:51:00.519
<v Speaker 6>lucky and you know, of course we'll you know, i'd

784
00:51:00.559 --> 00:51:06.599
<v Speaker 6>write about it, but you know, uh, but you know

785
00:51:06.880 --> 00:51:10.679
<v Speaker 6>it's uh and it's been you know, look, there's been

786
00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:12.320
<v Speaker 6>you know, there's been ups and downs. We had it.

787
00:51:12.440 --> 00:51:14.559
<v Speaker 6>We actually had a TV show that was interested in

788
00:51:14.719 --> 00:51:19.679
<v Speaker 6>doing something with him recently, and he was going to

789
00:51:19.760 --> 00:51:22.480
<v Speaker 6>be the pilot episode for the TV show and it

790
00:51:22.599 --> 00:51:25.039
<v Speaker 6>was going to be on a major network. It was

791
00:51:25.079 --> 00:51:27.920
<v Speaker 6>going to be a true crime thing. Was an id

792
00:51:28.239 --> 00:51:31.639
<v Speaker 6>with somebody else. And the reason that they wouldn't do

793
00:51:31.719 --> 00:51:34.360
<v Speaker 6>it is because the state of Michigan does not allow

794
00:51:35.599 --> 00:51:40.960
<v Speaker 6>uh on camera interviews and they needed the on camera

795
00:51:41.039 --> 00:51:43.119
<v Speaker 6>interview for the for the footage for the show, so

796
00:51:43.199 --> 00:51:46.280
<v Speaker 6>they couldn't do it. You know. So so you know,

797
00:51:46.880 --> 00:51:49.360
<v Speaker 6>and this is not the only state, but you see that,

798
00:51:49.519 --> 00:51:52.320
<v Speaker 6>you know the difficulties here, you know, not to mention

799
00:51:52.440 --> 00:51:55.119
<v Speaker 6>the fact that, you know, people listening to me instead

800
00:51:55.119 --> 00:51:58.079
<v Speaker 6>of Ray because of the difficulty and getting connected from prison.

801
00:51:59.679 --> 00:52:01.960
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, seems pretty simple when it's a press zero and

802
00:52:02.079 --> 00:52:03.559
<v Speaker 5>the press zero doesn't work.

803
00:52:03.800 --> 00:52:09.000
<v Speaker 6>So yeah, but then again, we don't know, we don't know,

804
00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:13.079
<v Speaker 6>you know, what they might they might have known as

805
00:52:13.119 --> 00:52:15.480
<v Speaker 6>far as the fact that we're doing this interview today.

806
00:52:16.760 --> 00:52:21.000
<v Speaker 6>You know, they they were aware through emails because I

807
00:52:21.119 --> 00:52:23.320
<v Speaker 6>had to let Ray know what the phone number was

808
00:52:23.400 --> 00:52:27.159
<v Speaker 6>to call in. So it's you know, it's very easy

809
00:52:27.280 --> 00:52:29.679
<v Speaker 6>for somebody to mess up a phone line or something

810
00:52:29.920 --> 00:52:33.039
<v Speaker 6>like that. I'm not saying they did it. I don't

811
00:52:33.079 --> 00:52:35.440
<v Speaker 6>have any evidence of that, you know, I'm not. I'm

812
00:52:35.480 --> 00:52:39.320
<v Speaker 6>not one of those people that you know, uh, you know.

813
00:52:39.440 --> 00:52:42.400
<v Speaker 6>I I promise I didn't bug Trump Tower. I didn't

814
00:52:42.440 --> 00:52:45.960
<v Speaker 6>do it, you know. But but but you know, the

815
00:52:46.079 --> 00:52:49.639
<v Speaker 6>thing is, seriously, the thing is, you know, just like

816
00:52:49.840 --> 00:52:53.440
<v Speaker 6>I I when you're on the phone talking to him,

817
00:52:54.599 --> 00:52:56.880
<v Speaker 6>I have to be careful because I'm the same. I'm

818
00:52:56.880 --> 00:52:59.039
<v Speaker 6>the same as I am with you in any place else.

819
00:52:59.360 --> 00:53:01.360
<v Speaker 6>You know, I'll joe around. And one day I said

820
00:53:01.360 --> 00:53:04.760
<v Speaker 6>to him, because he's also a Marvel fan, I said, hey, Ray,

821
00:53:04.800 --> 00:53:06.760
<v Speaker 6>I'm going to get Spidey to pull out the bars.

822
00:53:07.880 --> 00:53:12.519
<v Speaker 6>And then he reminded me, Fred, be careful what you say. Yes,

823
00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:16.440
<v Speaker 6>I might, I might. I might even add this that.

824
00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:19.639
<v Speaker 6>At one point, because it was you know, we're nuts

825
00:53:19.679 --> 00:53:24.639
<v Speaker 6>about this stuff, I sent him a uh an attachment

826
00:53:25.519 --> 00:53:29.440
<v Speaker 6>to an email and it was a picture of of

827
00:53:30.320 --> 00:53:33.440
<v Speaker 6>of Steve Rogers, of Captain America, of you know from

828
00:53:33.599 --> 00:53:35.760
<v Speaker 6>it was you know it was from the movie. You

829
00:53:35.840 --> 00:53:39.960
<v Speaker 6>know it was Chris Evans. Sure they wouldn't give it

830
00:53:40.039 --> 00:53:46.599
<v Speaker 6>to him. Excuse me, there's a condemnation for a Michigan prison.

831
00:53:46.679 --> 00:53:49.360
<v Speaker 6>You won't give a prisoner a picture of Captain America.

832
00:53:50.440 --> 00:53:50.639
<v Speaker 2>Gee?

833
00:53:51.280 --> 00:53:53.199
<v Speaker 6>Do I have to get the mighty thor after you?

834
00:53:56.639 --> 00:54:03.360
<v Speaker 5>So in when we talk about raised life, you talked

835
00:54:03.360 --> 00:54:08.599
<v Speaker 5>about Barb coming in his life and making his life

836
00:54:08.679 --> 00:54:11.960
<v Speaker 5>completely different, changing his life forever. Tell us a little

837
00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:15.639
<v Speaker 5>bit more about this relationship and what and what is

838
00:54:15.840 --> 00:54:18.760
<v Speaker 5>evolved from and into today?

839
00:54:20.719 --> 00:54:23.039
<v Speaker 6>What? What? Well?

840
00:54:23.079 --> 00:54:27.320
<v Speaker 5>What the what the relationship has evolved into today?

841
00:54:27.920 --> 00:54:34.960
<v Speaker 6>Oh? Sure? Well what happened was she you know, got

842
00:54:35.039 --> 00:54:38.239
<v Speaker 6>involved at a point where it was it was actually

843
00:54:39.679 --> 00:54:47.559
<v Speaker 6>at that point she was essentially assisting the attorney they

844
00:54:47.639 --> 00:54:51.039
<v Speaker 6>had at the time, so she was actually acting as paralegal.

845
00:54:53.119 --> 00:54:58.440
<v Speaker 6>And I'll tell you what's What's well, these two people

846
00:54:58.599 --> 00:55:02.320
<v Speaker 6>really love each other, okay, and.

847
00:55:05.280 --> 00:55:06.760
<v Speaker 9>And they're devoted to each other.

848
00:55:09.039 --> 00:55:14.960
<v Speaker 6>And but what happened over the years, you know, the

849
00:55:15.039 --> 00:55:18.159
<v Speaker 6>time they got married behind bars in the nineteen eighty

850
00:55:18.199 --> 00:55:22.920
<v Speaker 6>eighty one to the present is whatever money that Barb

851
00:55:23.039 --> 00:55:26.280
<v Speaker 6>had went down to, you know, out the window with

852
00:55:26.639 --> 00:55:31.719
<v Speaker 6>these attorneys, you know. And then the hardest part about

853
00:55:31.760 --> 00:55:40.119
<v Speaker 6>all this is the emotional and physical cost on her.

854
00:55:41.679 --> 00:55:45.119
<v Speaker 6>Sure she has had now, look, I don't have to

855
00:55:45.199 --> 00:55:49.400
<v Speaker 6>tell you, and certainly you're the listeners. Genetics and the

856
00:55:49.440 --> 00:55:52.800
<v Speaker 6>most important thing when it comes to our health. But

857
00:55:53.239 --> 00:56:01.119
<v Speaker 6>she she's had a couple of strokes and she's recovering.

858
00:56:02.679 --> 00:56:06.599
<v Speaker 6>But she was in an auto accident about a year

859
00:56:06.639 --> 00:56:09.320
<v Speaker 6>ago where she got slammed by a tractor trailer.

860
00:56:10.800 --> 00:56:11.599
<v Speaker 9>Now what I'm.

861
00:56:11.440 --> 00:56:17.280
<v Speaker 6>Getting at is that anybody, these things to happen to anybody, Okay,

862
00:56:18.480 --> 00:56:22.760
<v Speaker 6>I but when you have a certain momentum going in

863
00:56:22.960 --> 00:56:27.119
<v Speaker 6>terms of a husband in prison, and every time something

864
00:56:27.679 --> 00:56:32.079
<v Speaker 6>goods is about to happen, something bad happens. You know,

865
00:56:32.119 --> 00:56:34.960
<v Speaker 6>it's almost like one thing leads to another, you know.

866
00:56:35.440 --> 00:56:40.320
<v Speaker 6>And so she's been under a tremendous amount of stress.

867
00:56:41.199 --> 00:56:45.159
<v Speaker 6>She doesn't know she'll ever spend a day with her

868
00:56:45.280 --> 00:56:52.639
<v Speaker 6>husband outside of prison. You know, she hopes, you know,

869
00:56:53.119 --> 00:56:56.960
<v Speaker 6>but she doesn't know. And it's you know, it's hard

870
00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:00.400
<v Speaker 6>to keep your hope going for so many years when

871
00:57:00.440 --> 00:57:04.079
<v Speaker 6>it keeps getting destroyed bye bye bye by the system

872
00:57:05.039 --> 00:57:06.920
<v Speaker 6>and maybe apathy. I don't know any other way of

873
00:57:07.000 --> 00:57:09.599
<v Speaker 6>putting it. You know, there's a lot of empathy here, Dan.

874
00:57:10.159 --> 00:57:12.119
<v Speaker 6>You know, when I tell people of the disguise in

875
00:57:12.199 --> 00:57:15.039
<v Speaker 6>jail for forty four years, usually their mouth is just open.

876
00:57:15.079 --> 00:57:16.840
<v Speaker 6>They can't relate to the amount of time.

877
00:57:23.199 --> 00:57:26.800
<v Speaker 5>Is there a criticism you've talked about it, then maybe

878
00:57:27.360 --> 00:57:32.199
<v Speaker 5>I could sense it that wrongful conviction or innocence projects

879
00:57:32.840 --> 00:57:37.360
<v Speaker 5>passed on this officially, even though it seems at a

880
00:57:37.440 --> 00:57:41.840
<v Speaker 5>glance to be the kind of case that they long for. Again,

881
00:57:41.920 --> 00:57:47.440
<v Speaker 5>there's no DNA xoneration. But again today it is pretty

882
00:57:47.840 --> 00:57:52.119
<v Speaker 5>accepted that there can be false identification, There can be

883
00:57:52.199 --> 00:57:54.920
<v Speaker 5>tunnel visions, the kinds of things, you know. There can

884
00:57:55.079 --> 00:57:58.480
<v Speaker 5>be police corruption where people might not have believed that

885
00:57:58.559 --> 00:58:03.320
<v Speaker 5>before were certainly able to consider that now. Identification procedures

886
00:58:03.320 --> 00:58:06.719
<v Speaker 5>suppressed evidence, and there's certainly suppressed evidence with the fingerprints,

887
00:58:07.480 --> 00:58:12.199
<v Speaker 5>failure to investigate other sex suspects. But this is like

888
00:58:12.400 --> 00:58:16.280
<v Speaker 5>a one oh one on what a wrongful conviction is

889
00:58:16.360 --> 00:58:21.920
<v Speaker 5>based on other than the DNA. But everything else can

890
00:58:22.039 --> 00:58:26.800
<v Speaker 5>be seen today as the ammunition for another trial, for

891
00:58:27.159 --> 00:58:31.440
<v Speaker 5>an exoneration. Exactly why.

892
00:58:32.800 --> 00:58:35.760
<v Speaker 6>It seems to me that that should be that should

893
00:58:35.800 --> 00:58:41.760
<v Speaker 6>be a possibility. But yeah, absolutely positively, you know. And

894
00:58:42.119 --> 00:58:48.480
<v Speaker 6>and but if it would take you know, you know

895
00:58:48.559 --> 00:58:51.320
<v Speaker 6>what I'm what you know, I looked at a couple

896
00:58:51.360 --> 00:58:53.760
<v Speaker 6>of these you know, lawyers that it would take somebody

897
00:58:53.800 --> 00:59:00.119
<v Speaker 6>that's committed, Okay, somebody that's committed and that's doing it

898
00:59:00.199 --> 00:59:03.000
<v Speaker 6>for the right reasons, not because it's going to make

899
00:59:03.039 --> 00:59:05.440
<v Speaker 6>their reputation that much bigger. They're going to get on

900
00:59:05.599 --> 00:59:09.519
<v Speaker 6>the uh the local evening news, you know, in their

901
00:59:09.800 --> 00:59:11.760
<v Speaker 6>in their in their town, you know what I mean.

902
00:59:12.880 --> 00:59:16.199
<v Speaker 6>Uh So, but it would it would take something like that.

903
00:59:16.559 --> 00:59:20.800
<v Speaker 6>At one point, I even looked into the possibility of

904
00:59:20.920 --> 00:59:26.519
<v Speaker 6>there being something federal, you know. But but there's nothing

905
00:59:26.639 --> 00:59:31.360
<v Speaker 6>federal here, you know, so it's got to be the

906
00:59:31.480 --> 00:59:34.559
<v Speaker 6>only remedies can be legal and with the state, you know.

907
00:59:34.880 --> 00:59:38.559
<v Speaker 6>And there's something else too, you know, which is uh

908
00:59:39.039 --> 00:59:40.760
<v Speaker 6>and I'm sure it's got to be in the minds

909
00:59:40.800 --> 00:59:45.719
<v Speaker 6>of these bureaucrafts to sign off on these parole things,

910
00:59:45.920 --> 00:59:51.079
<v Speaker 6>which is, look, if if somebody is you know, if

911
00:59:51.079 --> 00:59:53.639
<v Speaker 6>he didn't do it, which he didn't do it, and

912
00:59:53.760 --> 00:59:57.559
<v Speaker 6>he gets out, Okay, what about the possibility that he

913
00:59:57.800 --> 01:00:03.480
<v Speaker 6>files a multi zillion lawsuit. State knows that apparent. Yeah,

914
01:00:04.840 --> 01:00:07.880
<v Speaker 6>you know, State knows that. Ray doesn't care about that.

915
01:00:08.920 --> 01:00:11.719
<v Speaker 6>You know, he didn't care about that. I mean, if

916
01:00:11.719 --> 01:00:14.039
<v Speaker 6>the state case came to him right now and said, hey, look,

917
01:00:14.119 --> 01:00:15.639
<v Speaker 6>i'll tell you what, we'll let you out, but you

918
01:00:15.719 --> 01:00:17.679
<v Speaker 6>got to sign off on a suit, he'd sign off

919
01:00:17.719 --> 01:00:20.280
<v Speaker 6>on it. He'd be crazy, not too how much? How

920
01:00:20.360 --> 01:00:22.400
<v Speaker 6>much is it? How much is the day of your

921
01:00:22.480 --> 01:00:24.840
<v Speaker 6>life free work? For God's sakes?

922
01:00:25.960 --> 01:00:26.159
<v Speaker 4>Yeah?

923
01:00:26.199 --> 01:00:33.559
<v Speaker 5>So yeah, so we'll hold What about maybe, yeah, Governor

924
01:00:33.679 --> 01:00:37.199
<v Speaker 5>Rick Snyder at face value? Or what you know about

925
01:00:37.280 --> 01:00:40.639
<v Speaker 5>Rick Snyder and his politics? You say that he didn't

926
01:00:40.639 --> 01:00:42.840
<v Speaker 5>want to look at this. Is there a chance of

927
01:00:42.920 --> 01:00:45.880
<v Speaker 5>another governor likelihood soon?

928
01:00:46.840 --> 01:00:47.079
<v Speaker 6>Is there?

929
01:00:48.159 --> 01:00:49.880
<v Speaker 5>Did Rick Snyder look like the kind of guy that

930
01:00:49.960 --> 01:00:52.360
<v Speaker 5>could be approachable with this or he was just the

931
01:00:52.400 --> 01:00:54.800
<v Speaker 5>guy that was a governor? Tell us a little bit

932
01:00:54.840 --> 01:00:55.119
<v Speaker 5>about that.

933
01:00:56.239 --> 01:00:59.039
<v Speaker 6>Boy. I feel like you're Anderson Cooper and I'm on

934
01:00:59.239 --> 01:01:03.320
<v Speaker 6>I'm on Keth on that one. You know we're going

935
01:01:03.360 --> 01:01:06.559
<v Speaker 6>to talk politics, okay, sure, Well Rick Snyder is if

936
01:01:06.599 --> 01:01:12.199
<v Speaker 6>there is a Republican conservative and everybody knows who he is,

937
01:01:13.440 --> 01:01:15.960
<v Speaker 6>and right now he's under the gun because of the

938
01:01:16.039 --> 01:01:19.559
<v Speaker 6>situation with the lead in the in the river water

939
01:01:19.679 --> 01:01:22.639
<v Speaker 6>and flint that's sort of keep. Some arguments are being

940
01:01:22.679 --> 01:01:25.159
<v Speaker 6>made legally that the state was responsible for this, et cetera,

941
01:01:25.199 --> 01:01:31.320
<v Speaker 6>et cetera. Okay, I looked it up. Okay, last governor

942
01:01:32.239 --> 01:01:36.360
<v Speaker 6>before this dude was Jennifer grand Holme, who is a Democrat.

943
01:01:37.559 --> 01:01:40.760
<v Speaker 6>So if if Grandholme were in office, yes, we'd have it.

944
01:01:40.920 --> 01:01:45.039
<v Speaker 6>We'd have a shot, I think with this guy, though,

945
01:01:45.079 --> 01:01:46.679
<v Speaker 6>I don't think we have a bunch of a shot,

946
01:01:46.840 --> 01:01:49.960
<v Speaker 6>except for the fact that he gets a tremendous amount

947
01:01:50.000 --> 01:01:52.599
<v Speaker 6>of good public relations if if he lets this guy,

948
01:01:53.400 --> 01:01:56.119
<v Speaker 6>you know, if he signs off in this commutation, and

949
01:01:56.239 --> 01:01:58.159
<v Speaker 6>whoever the governor is, they all sign off on a

950
01:01:58.239 --> 01:02:00.679
<v Speaker 6>commutation at the same you know, that's how it works.

951
01:02:01.800 --> 01:02:07.199
<v Speaker 6>So so, but do I think that this guy would

952
01:02:07.280 --> 01:02:10.119
<v Speaker 6>do that readily. No, I don't think he would do

953
01:02:10.159 --> 01:02:12.320
<v Speaker 6>it readily. I think that somebody would have to sit

954
01:02:12.400 --> 01:02:15.519
<v Speaker 6>down and talk with him, because right you know, he's

955
01:02:15.559 --> 01:02:20.760
<v Speaker 6>been more of a you know, much more conservative in

956
01:02:20.800 --> 01:02:24.639
<v Speaker 6>his approach. And it's a shame because Ray's not the

957
01:02:24.719 --> 01:02:27.079
<v Speaker 6>only lifeer in this kind of situation. There's a whole

958
01:02:27.079 --> 01:02:30.599
<v Speaker 6>bunch of others you know, but you know, Rai's the

959
01:02:30.679 --> 01:02:34.719
<v Speaker 6>only one that I know, and no, we have so

960
01:02:34.800 --> 01:02:37.000
<v Speaker 6>we haven't been able to get any trash on that

961
01:02:37.679 --> 01:02:41.400
<v Speaker 6>level yet. Why with the.

962
01:02:43.519 --> 01:02:46.559
<v Speaker 5>The particulars the way they are. He's in art school,

963
01:02:47.320 --> 01:02:50.159
<v Speaker 5>he's going to be a pro boxer. Okay, has he

964
01:02:50.480 --> 01:02:53.400
<v Speaker 5>the ex girlfriend? He's still associating with people that are

965
01:02:53.480 --> 01:02:58.440
<v Speaker 5>doing heroin. Somebody might say, but well, the again, with

966
01:02:58.679 --> 01:03:02.639
<v Speaker 5>time and and with people understanding, why can't a guy

967
01:03:02.719 --> 01:03:06.679
<v Speaker 5>that looks as innocent as Ray have a movie maker,

968
01:03:07.119 --> 01:03:12.199
<v Speaker 5>have an innocence project, have somebody supporting this guy. I mean,

969
01:03:12.280 --> 01:03:15.679
<v Speaker 5>it's one of those cases that looks at face value,

970
01:03:15.840 --> 01:03:20.360
<v Speaker 5>is much more promising, or he's much more innocent than

971
01:03:20.480 --> 01:03:23.920
<v Speaker 5>some of the people that that they've had somebody backing

972
01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:26.920
<v Speaker 5>them in their attempt to have their convictions overturned.

973
01:03:28.400 --> 01:03:30.800
<v Speaker 6>Well, one of the things that I learned a long

974
01:03:31.039 --> 01:03:34.320
<v Speaker 6>time ago about true crime, ed in from an editor,

975
01:03:35.119 --> 01:03:39.400
<v Speaker 6>is that people want it to be People want to

976
01:03:39.639 --> 01:03:42.719
<v Speaker 6>know the system work. They don't want to know it

977
01:03:42.880 --> 01:03:45.760
<v Speaker 6>doesn't work that an innocent man can go to jail.

978
01:03:47.119 --> 01:03:50.840
<v Speaker 6>So that's and they want an ending, and there is

979
01:03:51.000 --> 01:03:53.159
<v Speaker 6>right now, there is no ending. So Therefore, you know,

980
01:03:53.320 --> 01:03:56.159
<v Speaker 6>nobody's going to hire me to write a book, you know,

981
01:03:56.960 --> 01:04:01.239
<v Speaker 6>and exposal this stuff. Okay, I mean that would be

982
01:04:01.400 --> 01:04:03.800
<v Speaker 6>very helpful, but you know, I'm not here to shield

983
01:04:03.840 --> 01:04:10.039
<v Speaker 6>for a book. But the point is that, you know,

984
01:04:10.159 --> 01:04:18.559
<v Speaker 6>you you know, you've got a situation where you've got

985
01:04:18.679 --> 01:04:22.880
<v Speaker 6>to You've got a state that's very conservative, You've got

986
01:04:22.960 --> 01:04:28.880
<v Speaker 6>a governor that's very conservative. Okay. As far as getting

987
01:04:28.920 --> 01:04:34.119
<v Speaker 6>the word out to the media, I've tried. I mean,

988
01:04:34.360 --> 01:04:37.320
<v Speaker 6>that's thank god, that's why you know we're talking today.

989
01:04:38.079 --> 01:04:40.800
<v Speaker 6>I've certainly got a lot of contacts in the movie business.

990
01:04:41.119 --> 01:04:45.880
<v Speaker 6>But again, you know, one of the reasons that people

991
01:04:45.920 --> 01:04:48.440
<v Speaker 6>will shy away from something like this is because it's

992
01:04:48.519 --> 01:04:53.079
<v Speaker 6>not adjudicated. And when it's not adjudicated, and the fact

993
01:04:53.239 --> 01:04:56.119
<v Speaker 6>is there is still one one of the guys involved,

994
01:04:56.199 --> 01:04:59.840
<v Speaker 6>as I it's still alive. Well, people are afraid of lawsuits,

995
01:05:00.480 --> 01:05:04.440
<v Speaker 6>you know, they're afraid of lawsuits, especially in the movie

996
01:05:04.519 --> 01:05:10.440
<v Speaker 6>business and the publishing business. So you know it. So

997
01:05:10.599 --> 01:05:12.800
<v Speaker 6>that's the reason I think that some people, you know,

998
01:05:12.880 --> 01:05:14.960
<v Speaker 6>the people have stayed away. Plus they don't know anything

999
01:05:15.000 --> 01:05:18.360
<v Speaker 6>about it. I haven't you know, getting traction. I've talked

1000
01:05:18.360 --> 01:05:20.599
<v Speaker 6>for a lot of you know, for some reason, Like

1001
01:05:20.719 --> 01:05:22.519
<v Speaker 6>I said, I think people want to know more that

1002
01:05:22.639 --> 01:05:26.000
<v Speaker 6>the system works than it doesn't work. Plus there's something

1003
01:05:26.039 --> 01:05:28.159
<v Speaker 6>else I guess now that we talk about it, which

1004
01:05:28.280 --> 01:05:32.800
<v Speaker 6>is if you're going to if you're going, if you go,

1005
01:05:33.159 --> 01:05:36.679
<v Speaker 6>if if you find an innocent person, an innocent man,

1006
01:05:38.639 --> 01:05:40.400
<v Speaker 6>you got to make a decision are you in or

1007
01:05:40.400 --> 01:05:42.400
<v Speaker 6>you out? And that's what I have to do. And

1008
01:05:42.519 --> 01:05:43.880
<v Speaker 6>I knew that I was going to be in for

1009
01:05:44.000 --> 01:05:47.440
<v Speaker 6>a long time. But that's a very that's most people

1010
01:05:47.480 --> 01:05:50.400
<v Speaker 6>don't want to do that, you know, because you're in

1011
01:05:50.599 --> 01:05:54.519
<v Speaker 6>for a long you're in for a long time, you know.

1012
01:05:57.039 --> 01:05:59.719
<v Speaker 6>But you know, there was just more that I could

1013
01:05:59.760 --> 01:06:03.039
<v Speaker 6>walk and you know, I hope, you know, most people

1014
01:06:03.719 --> 01:06:04.519
<v Speaker 6>will feel that way.

1015
01:06:07.360 --> 01:06:12.400
<v Speaker 5>You talk about the the threat of compensation by Ray

1016
01:06:12.599 --> 01:06:16.119
<v Speaker 5>Ray being possibly a factor in as well as the

1017
01:06:16.199 --> 01:06:19.199
<v Speaker 5>state not being too interested in open up this huge

1018
01:06:19.280 --> 01:06:22.719
<v Speaker 5>can of worms. And that was evidence too. When I

1019
01:06:22.840 --> 01:06:25.719
<v Speaker 5>had Chad Keller on and talked about making a murderer

1020
01:06:26.360 --> 01:06:29.719
<v Speaker 5>in that particular case, again you could just look at

1021
01:06:29.840 --> 01:06:35.960
<v Speaker 5>and say, well, jeez, what a incredible convenient coincidence, What

1022
01:06:36.079 --> 01:06:39.159
<v Speaker 5>a lucky stroke for the state that he just happened

1023
01:06:39.199 --> 01:06:41.880
<v Speaker 5>to be on the verge of that thirty six million

1024
01:06:41.880 --> 01:06:47.920
<v Speaker 5>dollar compensation out of contention for the compensation. So again,

1025
01:06:47.960 --> 01:06:51.320
<v Speaker 5>I think all of these factors at least look and

1026
01:06:51.440 --> 01:06:53.360
<v Speaker 5>I guess there's a public now that is at least

1027
01:06:53.480 --> 01:06:57.840
<v Speaker 5>open to that possibility that, sure enough, the people that

1028
01:06:57.920 --> 01:07:00.639
<v Speaker 5>we entrust, there are some people that we may not

1029
01:07:00.920 --> 01:07:06.440
<v Speaker 5>trust as much based on these blatant wrongful convictions. Wrongful

1030
01:07:06.480 --> 01:07:10.400
<v Speaker 5>conviction is such a nice sort of inoculus. We're wrongful conviction.

1031
01:07:11.800 --> 01:07:14.960
<v Speaker 5>It's not appropriate. This is a travesty of justice. And

1032
01:07:15.199 --> 01:07:18.079
<v Speaker 5>a man sitting in jail for four minutes, let alone

1033
01:07:18.159 --> 01:07:21.400
<v Speaker 5>forty four years. And then, like you say, the apathy

1034
01:07:22.800 --> 01:07:25.800
<v Speaker 5>has to be addressed, and like I say, the only

1035
01:07:25.840 --> 01:07:28.360
<v Speaker 5>thing that we can do at this point is if

1036
01:07:28.480 --> 01:07:31.719
<v Speaker 5>John Wayne Gacy can sell his paintings and guys with

1037
01:07:31.960 --> 01:07:37.320
<v Speaker 5>questionable talent can become artists behind bars. How about an

1038
01:07:37.440 --> 01:07:40.079
<v Speaker 5>artist that was an artist beforehand, and it has this

1039
01:07:40.199 --> 01:07:45.320
<v Speaker 5>beautiful art. Again, it's very, very not expressive of the

1040
01:07:45.480 --> 01:07:49.079
<v Speaker 5>horror that he's lived through. This kind of art just

1041
01:07:49.159 --> 01:07:53.280
<v Speaker 5>seems to embody the spirit that this man must have had,

1042
01:07:53.599 --> 01:07:57.800
<v Speaker 5>this innocent spirit, yep, that he had no I see

1043
01:07:57.880 --> 01:08:04.000
<v Speaker 5>no maliciousness on his part than a desire to be free. Yeah,

1044
01:08:04.079 --> 01:08:05.079
<v Speaker 5>innocent person would.

1045
01:08:06.360 --> 01:08:12.159
<v Speaker 6>Yes, Yes, I'm very eloquent. You're very right, you know.

1046
01:08:13.079 --> 01:08:21.399
<v Speaker 6>And it's uh, it's I'll tell you something. I I'm

1047
01:08:21.479 --> 01:08:28.520
<v Speaker 6>so involved. I went to raise in twenty ten. I

1048
01:08:29.279 --> 01:08:35.920
<v Speaker 6>went to raise parole hearing a day after my daughter's

1049
01:08:36.039 --> 01:08:41.039
<v Speaker 6>by Metz by Metzvah. That's how committed I was to him. Okay,

1050
01:08:42.319 --> 01:08:47.600
<v Speaker 6>and uh, and I you know, you know, no regrets,

1051
01:08:47.640 --> 01:08:50.279
<v Speaker 6>of course. I mean, I'm glad I went, you know,

1052
01:08:50.720 --> 01:08:53.479
<v Speaker 6>because I got to see the way that things worked.

1053
01:08:53.640 --> 01:08:57.159
<v Speaker 6>And I really was shocked. I maybe, you know, maybe

1054
01:08:57.199 --> 01:08:58.720
<v Speaker 6>I sound like the most value guy.

1055
01:08:58.600 --> 01:09:01.760
<v Speaker 9>In the world, but I was just shocked.

1056
01:09:02.479 --> 01:09:06.479
<v Speaker 6>And you know, the way that he was treated and

1057
01:09:06.640 --> 01:09:10.920
<v Speaker 6>the fact that they're wasting the public's money. And not

1058
01:09:11.039 --> 01:09:13.520
<v Speaker 6>only that, you know, the most important thing is an

1059
01:09:13.560 --> 01:09:16.039
<v Speaker 6>innocent management behind jails for forty four years. And look

1060
01:09:16.079 --> 01:09:18.479
<v Speaker 6>what he could do if he was free. It's like

1061
01:09:18.600 --> 01:09:20.600
<v Speaker 6>you said, I wonder what would happen with his art.

1062
01:09:20.640 --> 01:09:23.039
<v Speaker 6>I wonder who he'd affect with it.

1063
01:09:26.479 --> 01:09:30.960
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, it seems like in this particular case, without the

1064
01:09:31.239 --> 01:09:34.520
<v Speaker 5>movie start coming forward, like on the half of the West,

1065
01:09:34.600 --> 01:09:40.279
<v Speaker 5>Memphis three, and other people coming forth, like even Baldwin

1066
01:09:40.920 --> 01:09:43.800
<v Speaker 5>calling the White House apparently or trying to message the

1067
01:09:43.840 --> 01:09:46.800
<v Speaker 5>White House and Obama to say, listen, this is after

1068
01:09:46.960 --> 01:09:51.239
<v Speaker 5>watching Making a Murderer. That I think that if we

1069
01:09:51.319 --> 01:09:53.439
<v Speaker 5>can do anything at all, is to start of just

1070
01:09:53.560 --> 01:09:57.399
<v Speaker 5>a mini movement of support. Number one, just for to

1071
01:09:57.520 --> 01:10:00.880
<v Speaker 5>consider him as an artist and in that you will

1072
01:10:00.880 --> 01:10:04.680
<v Speaker 5>also consider him as a innocent person and read his story.

1073
01:10:05.119 --> 01:10:07.359
<v Speaker 5>But the only thing that he has, the only thing

1074
01:10:07.439 --> 01:10:11.319
<v Speaker 5>that he can give you is his artwork. And it

1075
01:10:11.359 --> 01:10:13.960
<v Speaker 5>would just be really nice that for once there'd be

1076
01:10:14.079 --> 01:10:17.760
<v Speaker 5>such a great story that this man in prison at

1077
01:10:17.840 --> 01:10:21.279
<v Speaker 5>least knows that there's that support, there's that support, because

1078
01:10:21.319 --> 01:10:25.880
<v Speaker 5>as you know, is despite your cachet as a as

1079
01:10:25.920 --> 01:10:30.359
<v Speaker 5>a journalist and an author, that you can't have listened

1080
01:10:30.359 --> 01:10:33.399
<v Speaker 5>to any change in this particular case, just by you know,

1081
01:10:33.520 --> 01:10:34.760
<v Speaker 5>Fred Rosen making a call.

1082
01:10:36.880 --> 01:10:40.399
<v Speaker 6>So no, no, and it's no, there's no way, and

1083
01:10:40.600 --> 01:10:45.039
<v Speaker 6>it's also there's just no way. Plus it's also you know,

1084
01:10:45.359 --> 01:10:50.399
<v Speaker 6>every state is different, you know, and you know this.

1085
01:10:50.840 --> 01:10:53.119
<v Speaker 6>If this was Florida, it'd be a completely different story.

1086
01:10:53.600 --> 01:10:56.399
<v Speaker 6>It'd be much easier because everything is public in Florida.

1087
01:10:56.640 --> 01:10:59.199
<v Speaker 6>But this is completely different. You know, you're talking at

1088
01:10:59.279 --> 01:11:02.960
<v Speaker 6>a very corrupt police force. You're talking about a judge

1089
01:11:02.960 --> 01:11:05.159
<v Speaker 6>that you know, you know, I can go right down

1090
01:11:05.199 --> 01:11:07.800
<v Speaker 6>the line. You know. It's just frustrating for me, and

1091
01:11:09.640 --> 01:11:12.680
<v Speaker 6>you know it's you know, even you know, and talking

1092
01:11:12.760 --> 01:11:17.439
<v Speaker 6>to you today about it. I you know, I really

1093
01:11:17.720 --> 01:11:20.000
<v Speaker 6>like the ideas that you've come up with to try

1094
01:11:20.039 --> 01:11:22.479
<v Speaker 6>and support. And we can use his facebook page. People

1095
01:11:22.520 --> 01:11:25.359
<v Speaker 6>can go to raise facebook page, and you know, and

1096
01:11:25.479 --> 01:11:28.920
<v Speaker 6>so forth, and if you have any suggestions for attorneys

1097
01:11:29.000 --> 01:11:32.880
<v Speaker 6>or anything like that. You know, I like to say,

1098
01:11:32.960 --> 01:11:36.279
<v Speaker 6>good people stick together in difficult times. You know, well,

1099
01:11:36.319 --> 01:11:38.279
<v Speaker 6>these are difficult times and we're good people.

1100
01:11:40.199 --> 01:11:44.640
<v Speaker 5>You talked about before this that if your knowledge, this

1101
01:11:44.840 --> 01:11:50.079
<v Speaker 5>was the first interview that any journalist had with Ray

1102
01:11:50.239 --> 01:11:53.640
<v Speaker 5>Ray about this, And maybe initially there were some, yes,

1103
01:11:54.359 --> 01:11:57.279
<v Speaker 5>but for almost that entire forty four years, no one

1104
01:11:57.479 --> 01:12:00.239
<v Speaker 5>was even interested enough in this other than yourself off

1105
01:12:00.399 --> 01:12:01.399
<v Speaker 5>to interview him.

1106
01:12:03.159 --> 01:12:08.000
<v Speaker 6>Well there was go ahead, just I should explain there

1107
01:12:08.159 --> 01:12:15.720
<v Speaker 6>was a journalist? Uh actually did he interview? No? Yeah,

1108
01:12:15.760 --> 01:12:17.600
<v Speaker 6>you're correct, I'm sure, Yeah, I mean only one as

1109
01:12:17.800 --> 01:12:20.079
<v Speaker 6>as I know. Yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry.

1110
01:12:21.680 --> 01:12:24.600
<v Speaker 5>With this opportunity to interview him today, which I thought

1111
01:12:24.640 --> 01:12:26.600
<v Speaker 5>it was very important for people to hear right from

1112
01:12:26.680 --> 01:12:30.680
<v Speaker 5>Ray Ray's mouth the experience. And I mean, I don't

1113
01:12:30.680 --> 01:12:32.640
<v Speaker 5>even know how prepared I was to ask him questions,

1114
01:12:32.680 --> 01:12:35.880
<v Speaker 5>because some questions are just ridiculous. How does it feel,

1115
01:12:36.439 --> 01:12:41.760
<v Speaker 5>you know, his heart? Avoid questions that just they're not

1116
01:12:41.880 --> 01:12:42.640
<v Speaker 5>great questions.

1117
01:12:43.439 --> 01:12:44.119
<v Speaker 6>What was his.

1118
01:12:46.359 --> 01:12:49.840
<v Speaker 5>Attitude or anticipation for this interview? What was what was

1119
01:12:49.880 --> 01:12:53.640
<v Speaker 5>a conversation Like in anticipation, I know in prisoner's probably

1120
01:12:54.359 --> 01:12:57.000
<v Speaker 5>looking forward to a phone call or a letter is

1121
01:12:57.079 --> 01:12:59.199
<v Speaker 5>something that's the highlight of the day.

1122
01:13:00.880 --> 01:13:06.239
<v Speaker 6>What was his and he was like I would say

1123
01:13:06.319 --> 01:13:11.199
<v Speaker 6>that Ray's anticipation was as it usually is. He's very

1124
01:13:11.399 --> 01:13:14.760
<v Speaker 6>even tempered. He was looking forward to it, But it

1125
01:13:14.880 --> 01:13:18.920
<v Speaker 6>wasn't like he was, you know, like he's had He's

1126
01:13:18.960 --> 01:13:21.840
<v Speaker 6>been through this so many times where something would look

1127
01:13:21.920 --> 01:13:24.640
<v Speaker 6>like it would happen, and right now as we're talking,

1128
01:13:24.800 --> 01:13:28.159
<v Speaker 6>he thinks nothing has happened. So I'm gonna, you know,

1129
01:13:28.439 --> 01:13:31.359
<v Speaker 6>after we speak, I'll talk to his wife, who actually

1130
01:13:31.520 --> 01:13:34.439
<v Speaker 6>called me a couple of times while we've been on air,

1131
01:13:35.159 --> 01:13:37.399
<v Speaker 6>and I'll let her know what's going on, you know,

1132
01:13:37.560 --> 01:13:39.680
<v Speaker 6>and so forth, so that they know that you know,

1133
01:13:40.199 --> 01:13:43.159
<v Speaker 6>that's why I was writing Shotguns in case something happened,

1134
01:13:44.520 --> 01:13:46.840
<v Speaker 6>you know, that's you know, that's why he writes shotgun

1135
01:13:46.960 --> 01:13:51.600
<v Speaker 6>for the Texas Rangers. So in any case, yeah, he

1136
01:13:51.760 --> 01:13:52.640
<v Speaker 6>was looking forward to it.

1137
01:13:52.880 --> 01:13:53.680
<v Speaker 5>But but he.

1138
01:13:55.279 --> 01:13:59.079
<v Speaker 9>He he hasn't a.

1139
01:14:02.560 --> 01:14:07.800
<v Speaker 6>I don't know. It's like he's accepted the situation, you

1140
01:14:07.840 --> 01:14:12.399
<v Speaker 6>know what I mean, and he doesn't let himself get

1141
01:14:12.439 --> 01:14:16.520
<v Speaker 6>too excited. No, yeah, I mean.

1142
01:14:16.560 --> 01:14:20.359
<v Speaker 5>The thing is, after forty four years, you can't count

1143
01:14:20.479 --> 01:14:25.119
<v Speaker 5>on something happening for yourself. Otherwise he would have been

1144
01:14:25.199 --> 01:14:28.319
<v Speaker 5>devastated every time there was some devastating news, like you say,

1145
01:14:28.439 --> 01:14:33.279
<v Speaker 5>the humiliating parole hearing. He still can stay optimistic. He

1146
01:14:33.399 --> 01:14:37.319
<v Speaker 5>didn't have an outburst at that hearing. By as a

1147
01:14:37.399 --> 01:14:42.319
<v Speaker 5>defense mechanism, as a survival mechanism, he has to remain

1148
01:14:44.159 --> 01:14:48.520
<v Speaker 5>in his own little way how he handles that time.

1149
01:14:48.720 --> 01:14:52.439
<v Speaker 5>He can't hope for to get out of prison too much,

1150
01:14:52.680 --> 01:14:55.800
<v Speaker 5>otherwise he'll be completely devastated. He knows where he is

1151
01:14:56.359 --> 01:15:00.199
<v Speaker 5>and he knows likely his fate. He has to they

1152
01:15:00.479 --> 01:15:03.640
<v Speaker 5>optimistic to a certain degree. But it must be hard

1153
01:15:04.600 --> 01:15:07.960
<v Speaker 5>being optimistic at all after all this time and off,

1154
01:15:08.039 --> 01:15:09.119
<v Speaker 5>after all these failures.

1155
01:15:10.199 --> 01:15:14.760
<v Speaker 6>Yes, yes, exactly, I would agree with that. I think

1156
01:15:14.800 --> 01:15:19.399
<v Speaker 6>you've hit the nail on the head. Uh he yeah,

1157
01:15:19.520 --> 01:15:22.640
<v Speaker 6>he's got to stay level headed because of you know,

1158
01:15:22.760 --> 01:15:27.079
<v Speaker 6>these things you know, come up. You know, I mean

1159
01:15:27.119 --> 01:15:29.399
<v Speaker 6>he when I say that, you know, he was getting

1160
01:15:29.680 --> 01:15:33.479
<v Speaker 6>he got a call from a producer. Uh the producer

1161
01:15:33.600 --> 01:15:36.159
<v Speaker 6>actually called him in jail, or he called the producer

1162
01:15:36.279 --> 01:15:40.079
<v Speaker 6>rather not yeah, he called the producer. But you know,

1163
01:15:40.199 --> 01:15:43.600
<v Speaker 6>this was a major network show. But like I said,

1164
01:15:45.079 --> 01:15:47.760
<v Speaker 6>you know, without having the ability to photograph him, they

1165
01:15:47.760 --> 01:15:50.640
<v Speaker 6>couldn't do it. And there you know that that was

1166
01:15:50.720 --> 01:15:55.279
<v Speaker 6>a major source of of of you know, that was

1167
01:15:55.520 --> 01:15:57.680
<v Speaker 6>there was a lot of optimism and then we crashed.

1168
01:15:59.039 --> 01:16:01.039
<v Speaker 6>You know, we really did on that one because I

1169
01:16:01.119 --> 01:16:02.960
<v Speaker 6>really thought, you know, and I know, you know, I

1170
01:16:03.279 --> 01:16:05.600
<v Speaker 6>know how these things go, but you know, everything looked

1171
01:16:05.600 --> 01:16:08.319
<v Speaker 6>pretty good, but the last minute it just crashed.

1172
01:16:10.239 --> 01:16:15.760
<v Speaker 5>What I thought, too, is the incredible opportunity that arose

1173
01:16:15.880 --> 01:16:19.640
<v Speaker 5>by having Charlie Matthews come into the same prison and

1174
01:16:19.800 --> 01:16:22.560
<v Speaker 5>for Ray Ray to realize and then question him and

1175
01:16:22.640 --> 01:16:26.359
<v Speaker 5>get this affidavit from him, and then again at the

1176
01:16:26.439 --> 01:16:31.359
<v Speaker 5>last minute, that opportunity snuffed out, This incredible opportunity, this

1177
01:16:31.560 --> 01:16:38.880
<v Speaker 5>exonerating evidence. Yet I think, and just to picture the

1178
01:16:39.079 --> 01:16:43.880
<v Speaker 5>odds of the killer to come in and or the

1179
01:16:43.960 --> 01:16:49.680
<v Speaker 5>people responsible to come into the prison incredible. I mean, well,

1180
01:16:50.119 --> 01:16:54.760
<v Speaker 5>it's amazing that it hasn't been a screenplay just for

1181
01:16:54.920 --> 01:16:57.239
<v Speaker 5>even that scene alone. What are the odds of you

1182
01:16:57.399 --> 01:17:01.119
<v Speaker 5>being able to do something so monument on your own,

1183
01:17:01.199 --> 01:17:04.079
<v Speaker 5>behalf from prison and yet.

1184
01:17:04.079 --> 01:17:08.520
<v Speaker 6>Well yeah, I mean, I you know, again, you write

1185
01:17:08.520 --> 01:17:11.640
<v Speaker 6>a screenplay, you got to get it produced. But yes,

1186
01:17:12.199 --> 01:17:15.680
<v Speaker 6>everything you're saying things sense. I mean, actually, you know,

1187
01:17:16.079 --> 01:17:21.239
<v Speaker 6>it's it's if there's any case that you know besides

1188
01:17:21.359 --> 01:17:25.199
<v Speaker 6>Resco promps me The Birdman of Alcatraz, you know, which

1189
01:17:25.279 --> 01:17:27.359
<v Speaker 6>was a book originally before he became a movie with

1190
01:17:27.439 --> 01:17:31.399
<v Speaker 6>Burt Lancaster directed by John Frankenheimer in sixty two, I think,

1191
01:17:32.560 --> 01:17:35.840
<v Speaker 6>and a reporter got onto the case and said, this

1192
01:17:35.920 --> 01:17:37.880
<v Speaker 6>guy should be out. Well and in that case, the

1193
01:17:37.920 --> 01:17:42.199
<v Speaker 6>guy was guilty. He really wasn't murdered. But and it

1194
01:17:42.319 --> 01:17:45.560
<v Speaker 6>didn't happen, you know, The Birdman, you know, Robert Stroud,

1195
01:17:45.600 --> 01:17:50.560
<v Speaker 6>Birdman of Alcatraz died in prestody, you know, and it

1196
01:17:50.800 --> 01:17:54.119
<v Speaker 6>was so difficult, is you know, I've had people close

1197
01:17:54.199 --> 01:17:55.960
<v Speaker 6>to me he said, oh, he's going to die in jail,

1198
01:17:56.039 --> 01:17:59.000
<v Speaker 6>and I go, don't say that, you know, I mean,

1199
01:17:59.079 --> 01:18:02.119
<v Speaker 6>I've had people that to me, that's pretty you know,

1200
01:18:02.199 --> 01:18:06.800
<v Speaker 6>it's pretty un thinking. But you know, I know where

1201
01:18:06.800 --> 01:18:10.359
<v Speaker 6>they're coming from. But thats not not going to happen.

1202
01:18:12.079 --> 01:18:16.560
<v Speaker 5>We're gonna get talked about Barbs, Barb's health issues. What

1203
01:18:16.680 --> 01:18:21.479
<v Speaker 5>about the overall health of Ray Gray's not an old man, he's.

1204
01:18:22.720 --> 01:18:27.680
<v Speaker 6>What's fire well, his health is okay, but from what

1205
01:18:27.800 --> 01:18:32.279
<v Speaker 6>I understand he has I think he may have hepatitis

1206
01:18:32.319 --> 01:18:38.039
<v Speaker 6>c uh and uh. He also I think he's got

1207
01:18:38.159 --> 01:18:40.800
<v Speaker 6>high blood pressure, you know, some of the standard stuff

1208
01:18:40.840 --> 01:18:43.399
<v Speaker 6>you get as you get older. Other than that, he

1209
01:18:43.520 --> 01:18:47.560
<v Speaker 6>seems to be okay. But but you know, we got

1210
01:18:47.680 --> 01:18:51.399
<v Speaker 6>to remember that, you know, forty four years behind bars

1211
01:18:51.479 --> 01:18:53.720
<v Speaker 6>for anybody is not the same as forty four years.

1212
01:18:53.760 --> 01:18:58.279
<v Speaker 6>And you know, with freedom, it gauges you. So you know,

1213
01:18:58.439 --> 01:19:01.039
<v Speaker 6>how he is, you know, insights physically, I don't know.

1214
01:19:01.239 --> 01:19:03.039
<v Speaker 6>But the good news is that because you know, he's

1215
01:19:03.039 --> 01:19:05.680
<v Speaker 6>always been, you know, an athlete, so he keeps you know,

1216
01:19:05.760 --> 01:19:08.520
<v Speaker 6>he certainly keeps in shape. It looks, you know, so

1217
01:19:09.800 --> 01:19:15.079
<v Speaker 6>I don't think he does any boxing anymore. But but

1218
01:19:15.479 --> 01:19:20.640
<v Speaker 6>you know, overall he's okay, that's good.

1219
01:19:21.880 --> 01:19:27.159
<v Speaker 5>Yes, it's his story. It just seems an incredible indomitable

1220
01:19:27.199 --> 01:19:30.680
<v Speaker 5>spirit that this man has. I hope that people will

1221
01:19:31.039 --> 01:19:34.920
<v Speaker 5>go to the site itself and it's not very long.

1222
01:19:35.079 --> 01:19:38.199
<v Speaker 5>It just tells his story and then shows you some

1223
01:19:38.399 --> 01:19:41.079
<v Speaker 5>artwork and the ability to be able to purchase some

1224
01:19:41.199 --> 01:19:45.800
<v Speaker 5>of this artwork and really really support this man if

1225
01:19:45.800 --> 01:19:48.079
<v Speaker 5>there is any chance at all. This seems to be

1226
01:19:48.239 --> 01:19:52.239
<v Speaker 5>the best way. I mean, certainly, have people know about

1227
01:19:52.319 --> 01:19:54.920
<v Speaker 5>this case, and that is one of the most important things.

1228
01:19:54.960 --> 01:19:59.720
<v Speaker 5>And like I say, not everybody knows about this person whatsoever.

1229
01:20:00.039 --> 01:20:03.800
<v Speaker 5>I hope this program and maybe even subsequent programs will

1230
01:20:04.359 --> 01:20:07.399
<v Speaker 5>take up this fight for this innocent man, Ray Ray.

1231
01:20:08.000 --> 01:20:09.800
<v Speaker 5>I want to thank you very much Fred Rosen for

1232
01:20:09.920 --> 01:20:15.079
<v Speaker 5>coming on and talking about Ray Ray in this incredible case. Fred,

1233
01:20:15.479 --> 01:20:17.800
<v Speaker 5>we're going to be back on talking in October about

1234
01:20:17.840 --> 01:20:21.479
<v Speaker 5>the Bayou Strangler again. You're just a very prolific guy.

1235
01:20:22.159 --> 01:20:24.239
<v Speaker 5>Tell us how people might get a hold of Fred

1236
01:20:24.359 --> 01:20:27.720
<v Speaker 5>Rosen to communicate or find out more about all of

1237
01:20:27.800 --> 01:20:29.159
<v Speaker 5>the great work that you've done.

1238
01:20:29.399 --> 01:20:31.880
<v Speaker 6>So oh well, thank you, Thank you. Dan. Just have

1239
01:20:32.119 --> 01:20:34.319
<v Speaker 6>any if you'd like to get you know, get in

1240
01:20:34.439 --> 01:20:39.119
<v Speaker 6>touch with me. You can just go to my Facebook page.

1241
01:20:39.159 --> 01:20:42.079
<v Speaker 6>It's that easy, you know, just just send me an

1242
01:20:42.079 --> 01:20:47.119
<v Speaker 6>email from Facebook and I'm there. That's it. You know,

1243
01:20:47.720 --> 01:20:51.520
<v Speaker 6>I'm pretty I'm pretty public that way. And or you know,

1244
01:20:51.600 --> 01:20:53.840
<v Speaker 6>you can always send you can always go to Open Road,

1245
01:20:53.920 --> 01:20:56.439
<v Speaker 6>which is my publisher, and send an email there, you know,

1246
01:20:56.600 --> 01:21:01.680
<v Speaker 6>if that's how you prefer doing it. If I was

1247
01:21:01.720 --> 01:21:04.560
<v Speaker 6>a DC Comics guy, I would say you could send

1248
01:21:04.640 --> 01:21:06.439
<v Speaker 6>up that signal, but I'm not going to say that.

1249
01:21:06.520 --> 01:21:12.960
<v Speaker 6>I'll say you can send up the Spider signal, Dan, Yeah, right.

1250
01:21:14.079 --> 01:21:16.840
<v Speaker 5>I also want to mention too. We also want to

1251
01:21:16.920 --> 01:21:20.520
<v Speaker 5>mention for people to go to Free Ray Gray. It's

1252
01:21:20.520 --> 01:21:23.600
<v Speaker 5>as simple as that and check it out. I know

1253
01:21:23.720 --> 01:21:28.680
<v Speaker 5>Ray will appreciate it. It's regrettable that we couldn't get

1254
01:21:28.760 --> 01:21:31.640
<v Speaker 5>Ray to speak on his own behalf here today, but Fred,

1255
01:21:31.760 --> 01:21:34.600
<v Speaker 5>you spoke for Ray and I want to thank you

1256
01:21:34.720 --> 01:21:37.159
<v Speaker 5>very much for this interview and I know we'll be

1257
01:21:37.199 --> 01:21:39.640
<v Speaker 5>speaking to you again real soon. Thank you very much,

1258
01:21:39.680 --> 01:21:40.760
<v Speaker 5>Fred Rose Dan.

1259
01:21:40.920 --> 01:21:43.399
<v Speaker 6>I want to thank you especially today for what you've

1260
01:21:43.439 --> 01:21:46.960
<v Speaker 6>done in Judaism. We call what you did today a

1261
01:21:47.079 --> 01:21:49.840
<v Speaker 6>big mitzvah, a good deed. Thank you, sir.

1262
01:21:51.119 --> 01:21:52.319
<v Speaker 5>Thank you have a great night.

1263
01:21:52.399 --> 01:21:55.319
<v Speaker 6>Fred, good night you too, Dan. Good night by

1264
01:22:01.720 --> 01:22:07.399
<v Speaker 5>Se