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We're pomitted 49 00:01:59.879 --> 00:02:01.079 by hedition. 50 00:02:01.480 --> 00:02:14.879 What you are now listening to true Murder, The most 51 00:02:14.919 --> 00:02:18.319 shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that 52 00:02:18.360 --> 00:02:24.599 have written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. 53 00:02:25.520 --> 00:02:29.319 Every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 54 00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:30.599 and infamous killers in. 55 00:02:30.599 --> 00:02:31.560 True crime history. 56 00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:35.759 True Murder with your Host journalist and author. 57 00:02:35.960 --> 00:02:50.719 Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. She thought she had married her soulmate. 58 00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:54.520 But when Carol Kennedy could no longer tolerate her husband's 59 00:02:54.520 --> 00:02:59.759 reckless womanizing and out of control spending, the artist, therapist 60 00:02:59.840 --> 00:03:03.479 and mother of two had to let him go. Just 61 00:03:03.560 --> 00:03:06.520 weeks after the divorce, Carol was found in her Arizona 62 00:03:06.639 --> 00:03:10.840 Ranch home, bludgeoned to death with a golf club. Her ex, 63 00:03:11.080 --> 00:03:15.240 Stephen Democher, was the prime suspect, yet it took the 64 00:03:15.240 --> 00:03:20.120 authorities months to arrest him and years to convict. Packed 65 00:03:20.120 --> 00:03:24.639 with twists and turns, this powerful real life account reveals 66 00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:30.039 every bizarre detail of this compelling case. Best Selling author 67 00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:34.599 and award winning journalist Caitlyn Rother presents an unforgettable story 68 00:03:34.599 --> 00:03:39.039 of love turned to obsession and a family torn apart forever. 69 00:03:40.159 --> 00:03:42.520 The book that we're featuring this evening is then no 70 00:03:42.599 --> 00:03:46.039 one can have her with my special guest, journalist and 71 00:03:46.039 --> 00:03:49.319 author Caitlyn Rother. Welcome back to the program and thank 72 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:52.680 you for agreeing to this interview. Kaitlyn Rother, Hey, thanks 73 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:56.680 for having me back. Thank you for coming on back. 74 00:03:57.080 --> 00:04:03.360 Congratulations on the new book, another her incredible tale. So 75 00:04:03.800 --> 00:04:08.840 let's start right with the incredible portrait that you do 76 00:04:09.080 --> 00:04:12.479 paint in this book of Virginia. Carol Kennedy. She's born 77 00:04:12.520 --> 00:04:17.199 in nineteen fifty four. Tell us about her upbringing which 78 00:04:17.240 --> 00:04:20.160 shapes the kind of incredible personality that she is and 79 00:04:20.199 --> 00:04:23.399 that you basically showcase in this book. 80 00:04:25.000 --> 00:04:31.639 Well, Carol was born in Nashville, Tennessee, to working class 81 00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:37.759 parents who mom was a secretary and dad work carrier 82 00:04:37.839 --> 00:04:41.959 and later as an auditor, and you know, just a 83 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:44.480 really nice family. She had also had a brother, and 84 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:48.360 mom really loved classical music, so she always had that playing. 85 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:52.319 And Carol, I guess, from a young age, was pretty 86 00:04:52.879 --> 00:04:55.199 you know, knew what she wanted. And she was brought 87 00:04:55.279 --> 00:04:58.360 up also in this religious family, and she was very spiritual, 88 00:04:58.600 --> 00:05:03.079 very early. Wanted to be baptized at nine years old, 89 00:05:03.720 --> 00:05:06.360 sooner than her mom would have liked, but you know, 90 00:05:06.399 --> 00:05:10.399 went along with it. Carol also was ambitious and well 91 00:05:10.560 --> 00:05:14.800 liked and respected by her peers. And she was even 92 00:05:14.839 --> 00:05:17.519 a teenage model, so she had everything going from her 93 00:05:17.720 --> 00:05:22.439 for her even from a very young age, and seemed 94 00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:24.680 like she knew where she wanted to go and what 95 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:27.000 she wanted to do. But along the way, you know, 96 00:05:27.079 --> 00:05:32.639 she picked up a number of pretty unusual talents and skills, 97 00:05:32.759 --> 00:05:35.000 you know, going to carpentry school, she learned how to 98 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:38.680 be a yoga instructor, so she ended up being a therapist, 99 00:05:39.160 --> 00:05:43.279 and she later brought out her artistic side and started 100 00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:47.600 doing monoliths printing. But she she really seemed to have 101 00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:50.560 her wits about her and her you know, she knew 102 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:52.639 what she wanted. She was a strong person and a 103 00:05:52.680 --> 00:05:53.319 smart person. 104 00:05:56.279 --> 00:06:00.519 Now she gets married, talk about responsible person. By She 105 00:06:00.639 --> 00:06:04.000 did get engaged early and to a man named Tom, 106 00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:07.600 and it only lasts about eighteen months. So just tell 107 00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:12.000 us about a little bit about this period in her life. 108 00:06:12.759 --> 00:06:14.560 I don't know too much about it other than the 109 00:06:14.560 --> 00:06:16.920 fact that she married young and it was over pretty quickly. 110 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:21.160 She left town with him and came back and she 111 00:06:21.360 --> 00:06:25.680 was single, so it didn't last long. He was a 112 00:06:25.680 --> 00:06:28.000 good guy from a good family. I don't really know, 113 00:06:28.759 --> 00:06:30.680 I interviewed her mom about her mom didn't really know 114 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:32.319 too much about it, other than that he was a 115 00:06:32.399 --> 00:06:34.879 nice guy. It was just, you know, she was young 116 00:06:35.319 --> 00:06:36.120 and it didn't last. 117 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:41.759 Now, you introduce a character that's important in Carol's life 118 00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:44.839 early on and then later as they reconnect, and this 119 00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:47.120 woman's name Debbie. So tell us a little bit about 120 00:06:47.240 --> 00:06:52.839 the relationship to Debbie and Carol have and when they reconnect. 121 00:06:52.879 --> 00:06:55.199 What's the circumstances when they reconnect. 122 00:06:56.920 --> 00:07:00.920 Well, they knew each other when they were both in 123 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:04.600 their respective relationships that I was just talking about with 124 00:07:04.680 --> 00:07:07.879 Carol's first husband. Debbie was also with another guy and 125 00:07:07.920 --> 00:07:10.920 they the two men knew each other, and so they 126 00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:13.480 were hanging out as a foursome. Carol and Debbie met 127 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:18.120 at a restaurant where they both worked, and so Carol 128 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:22.000 left and you know, went on her way and came 129 00:07:22.079 --> 00:07:24.639 back to town looking for a roommate with her dog, 130 00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:30.040 and by chance, you know, basically ended up living back 131 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:34.120 with her friend Debbie. So they've known each other, they've 132 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:36.160 known each other for a long time, and they stayed 133 00:07:36.279 --> 00:07:42.040 really close pretty much through the end of Carol's life. 134 00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:46.839 Now, while they after they've reconnected, this is when Carol 135 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:51.040 meets Steve in New York. So tell us the circumstances 136 00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:53.879 upon which Carol meets Steve. 137 00:07:56.360 --> 00:08:00.879 Well, Carol was away, Debbie didn't know exactly how they met, 138 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:04.360 but it seems that they met someplace up in the 139 00:08:04.399 --> 00:08:07.000 New York area, because that's where Steve was actually going 140 00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:11.839 to graduate school. He was in a PhD program at 141 00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:22.240 Rochester University studying critical social theory. And so Carol came 142 00:08:22.279 --> 00:08:25.680 back and she was just like raving about this mister wonderful, 143 00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:30.319 that you know, guy that she met. And so I 144 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:32.480 guess they were seeing each other long distance, and they 145 00:08:32.519 --> 00:08:35.679 went off to Mexico, and Carol came back and just said, 146 00:08:36.440 --> 00:08:39.480 you know, I just really feel in my gut that 147 00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:41.759 this is this is the one. This is the guy. 148 00:08:42.120 --> 00:08:46.519 He's my soulmate. So he came to visit, and Debbie 149 00:08:46.600 --> 00:08:51.159 really liked him too, and said, wow, he's intelligent, he's athletic, 150 00:08:51.399 --> 00:08:55.720 he's ambitious, he really seems to carry you know, an 151 00:08:55.720 --> 00:08:59.480 adore Carol my good friend. And so you know, she 152 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:03.159 told me that she really liked him a lot too, 153 00:09:03.240 --> 00:09:07.879 and thought, wow, Carol really really was in love, and 154 00:09:08.559 --> 00:09:10.080 it was it was all good at that point. 155 00:09:12.559 --> 00:09:16.000 At that time as well, she was very attracted to him. 156 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:19.159 We haven't completely painted the portrait of her too. Is 157 00:09:19.480 --> 00:09:22.960 that they're both vegetarians, so that's probably a very interesting 158 00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:26.120 thing to attract each other as well, and that she 159 00:09:26.279 --> 00:09:29.440 really he was an outdoors guy, but they were really 160 00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:33.799 a healthy living They had that in common, that they're 161 00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:37.399 healthy living aspects of their of their life. And also 162 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:40.600 that she was really immersed in all kinds of things 163 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:46.000 that we will be considered her spiritual development, yoga and 164 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:50.799 art work, and so she had had a rich community 165 00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:53.600 of people that felt the same way. So she was 166 00:09:53.639 --> 00:09:58.919 always sociology and counseling and art and spirituality and yoga, 167 00:09:59.679 --> 00:10:05.120 and so the kinds of personality she was, she had 168 00:10:05.159 --> 00:10:08.480 that reflected and Steve didn't She She saw her a 169 00:10:08.519 --> 00:10:11.080 soulmate in terms of how they felt about each other. 170 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:13.519 But there was a lot in common as well. That 171 00:10:13.679 --> 00:10:15.159 was part of that decision, wasn't it. 172 00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:19.080 I'm not sure how much he was really into this, 173 00:10:19.320 --> 00:10:22.200 you know, the he wasn't into therapy or anything, but 174 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:25.799 her friend Debbie was ultimately became a therapist, and so 175 00:10:25.919 --> 00:10:28.360 did Carol. But I do know, yes, the healthy living 176 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:33.080 thing was definitely a connection. I don't know that much 177 00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:36.000 about Steve, but I didn't in terms of spirituality, but 178 00:10:36.080 --> 00:10:39.879 I didn't hear that from anybody, but I do know 179 00:10:40.519 --> 00:10:43.639 there was something. There was a great attraction, I know that. 180 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:48.399 And they were both intelligent, very intellectual people, and I 181 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:51.519 got the feeling that they were both drawn to kind 182 00:10:51.559 --> 00:10:54.960 of an alternative way of life, like you said, being 183 00:10:55.639 --> 00:11:00.840 vegetarian and wanting to live on the la land, you know, 184 00:11:00.919 --> 00:11:05.120 off the land, and and being very nature conscious rock 185 00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:10.240 climbing and hiking and you know, exercising. Steve was involved 186 00:11:10.279 --> 00:11:15.559 with outward bound and kayaking, and you know he was 187 00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:19.960 also early on helped his he had He was the 188 00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:23.679 oldest of nine siblings, and he apparently was a mentor 189 00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:28.200 to them, you know, taking them places and you know, 190 00:11:28.600 --> 00:11:31.799 showing them how to how to learn how to do 191 00:11:31.879 --> 00:11:36.200 these dangerous kinds of outdoors activities and you know, the 192 00:11:36.279 --> 00:11:40.120 kayaking and all that other stuff. So they definitely saw 193 00:11:40.159 --> 00:11:43.279 something in each other early on that drew them to 194 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:46.639 each other, and they both thought each other was their soulmates. 195 00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:48.720 So it started out really nice. 196 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:58.919 What did Elvin and Ruth, Carol's parents think of Steve, Well, 197 00:11:58.960 --> 00:11:59.320 early on. 198 00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:02.759 I think they saw he was all right. They came 199 00:12:02.879 --> 00:12:07.279 to the to the wedding and met his parents and 200 00:12:07.559 --> 00:12:13.759 family up in you know, a suburb of Rochester, and 201 00:12:13.799 --> 00:12:17.039 they were a little bit intimidated because Steve came from 202 00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:23.600 a much socio economically, you know, better off. So Steve's 203 00:12:23.639 --> 00:12:27.720 father was a doctor. Steve's mother had multiple degrees. Also, 204 00:12:27.879 --> 00:12:31.799 Steve's family in general was pretty accomplished and pretty educated, 205 00:12:31.879 --> 00:12:37.080 went to private schools. So but I think initially she 206 00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:40.480 wrote a letter to Steve because she's you know, they 207 00:12:40.480 --> 00:12:43.279 were engaged and got married. She didn't really approve of 208 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:47.039 Carol living you know together outside of marriage, so she 209 00:12:47.080 --> 00:12:49.120 wrote him to say, you know, thank you for doing 210 00:12:49.159 --> 00:12:51.840 the right thing. And I guess Steve didn't write back. 211 00:12:51.919 --> 00:12:55.320 So Carol's mom didn't really know what to make of him. 212 00:12:55.320 --> 00:12:56.960 But once she met him, I think she thought, no, 213 00:12:57.039 --> 00:12:57.720 he seemed okay. 214 00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:11.200 Yes. And John and Janice, her his parents, they they 215 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:12.679 thought highly of Carrol as well. 216 00:13:14.519 --> 00:13:17.879 You know, I wasn't able to interview them, so it 217 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:20.480 seemed that they you know, liked her based on their 218 00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:24.759 comments in court. They said, you know, I didn't John 219 00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:29.679 didn't speak when I was there. Only his only Jan 220 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:36.159 Steve's mother, but I assumed that they you know, they 221 00:13:36.279 --> 00:13:39.360 liked her. They adopted her, not adopted officially, but you know, 222 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:43.320 brought her into the family. Steve and Carol lived on 223 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:46.679 the property out of his parents at his parents' house 224 00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:49.399 while he and Carol were both in graduate school at 225 00:13:49.480 --> 00:13:52.639 Rochester University. So they must have gotten along. I know Carol. 226 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:56.799 I believe she you know, built him a nice garden 227 00:13:57.000 --> 00:13:59.879 while she was there, So it seems that she became, 228 00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:01.039 you know, part of their family. 229 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:07.360 Now this will link up into what we talk about 230 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:13.279 sex addiction and Steve's cheating ways in the marriage. But 231 00:14:14.600 --> 00:14:16.879 what I thought was a little out of character. But 232 00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:19.559 but you know, maybe just a little bit unusual was 233 00:14:20.200 --> 00:14:25.000 their outward sexuality and what she had said about Steve 234 00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:29.360 and what its impact was probably on this relationship with 235 00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:31.600 them going back and forth, and we'll talk about that 236 00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:33.679 a little bit later. So tell us a little bit 237 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:40.519 about their sort of it seemed unusual their sexuality and 238 00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:42.360 telling people about it. 239 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:46.159 Well, I heard this from one person, and that was 240 00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:53.480 Steve's former best friend, Sturgis Robinson, that he noticed he 241 00:14:53.600 --> 00:14:56.919 was you know, he knew Steve when they went to college. 242 00:14:56.960 --> 00:15:00.720 Together at Prescott College. They were for for about twenty 243 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:03.919 five years before they had a falling out. But when 244 00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:06.879 you know, when they came Steve and Carol, you know, 245 00:15:06.879 --> 00:15:08.720 were jumping ahead here in the story, but when they 246 00:15:08.840 --> 00:15:13.000 came back to live in Prescott, when they after they 247 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:16.799 were married and they were having kids and Steve was 248 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:19.639 working at the college as a professor and Carol started 249 00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:24.840 working there as well. Sturg just said that they were 250 00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:28.840 both pretty open about the fact that they were, you know, 251 00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:33.039 to do each other and and had good sex. And 252 00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:35.960 you know, I think that that was you know, it 253 00:15:36.039 --> 00:15:38.440 was a different kind of a place. I mean, Prescott 254 00:15:38.440 --> 00:15:41.200 College is a pretty alternative place, and I don't want 255 00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:43.240 to say it was a hippie college, but it was 256 00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:46.440 I think the generation after that, and it was, you know, 257 00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:51.480 they were of the age where I think things were 258 00:15:51.480 --> 00:15:54.879 more open, and I don't know that it was all 259 00:15:54.919 --> 00:15:57.519 that unusual, but I know they were pretty open and 260 00:15:57.600 --> 00:15:59.279 relaxed about it. I wouldn't say that, you know, they 261 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:04.320 weren't inhibited about it, and I don't want to. I 262 00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:06.720 don't want to make it sound like it's something dirty, 263 00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:08.399 you know, That's all. I mean. They were married and 264 00:16:08.440 --> 00:16:09.399 they enjoyed each other. 265 00:16:09.480 --> 00:16:14.360 So yes, absolutely, I just wanted to, you know, paint 266 00:16:14.600 --> 00:16:17.000 you know, the complete picture, as you do in this book. 267 00:16:17.080 --> 00:16:23.200 So she's a very complicated person. It's a very intelligent person, artistic. Again, 268 00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:26.039 you know, we talk about all the friends and the 269 00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:28.360 kind of close relationships she has. He's very unique. 270 00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:35.320 But I think that I forget what I was gonna say, Oh, 271 00:16:35.399 --> 00:16:38.080 I know later on. I mean, it seemed to me 272 00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:42.720 that that their sexual relationship with the glue that helped 273 00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:47.759 them together, because but that comes later more so, I think, 274 00:16:47.799 --> 00:16:49.720 but I think from the beginning they were pretty close, 275 00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:52.519 and I think that kept them together. I think that 276 00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:55.600 was one of the things that was you know, kept 277 00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:58.720 this relationship, probably one of the good things about it 278 00:16:58.759 --> 00:17:01.639 that held them together or even maybe at times when 279 00:17:01.639 --> 00:17:05.319 they should have let go. So I think that's the 280 00:17:05.319 --> 00:17:05.759 best quay. 281 00:17:05.799 --> 00:17:11.480 Now we skipped over this. But they meet, they have 282 00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:14.680 a great relationship, and so it isn't too long before 283 00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:20.000 they have wedding plans, they get married, and now they're 284 00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:24.000 having children. So how do they get to Prescott from 285 00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:27.519 where they were at their parents where at his parents place, 286 00:17:27.640 --> 00:17:30.759 living in the guest house. So what happens after school 287 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:34.279 and and what happens tell us a little bit about 288 00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:38.720 motherhood and parenthood for Stephen Carroll. 289 00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:42.400 So Carol gets her a graduate degree. She's got a 290 00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:46.240 master's in education, so she's, you know, a therapist, and 291 00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:50.240 Steve is getting a PhD in critical social theory, which 292 00:17:50.279 --> 00:17:55.200 is actually also a doctorate in education, but it's just 293 00:17:55.279 --> 00:17:59.200 called something different social critical critical social theory. It's kind 294 00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:01.000 of an obscure field. I had to look it up 295 00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:05.039 and see what it was. But the first job he 296 00:18:05.160 --> 00:18:09.359 had out of graduate school, actually the guy I just mentioned, 297 00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:13.000 his former best friend, helped him get a job at Patagonia, 298 00:18:13.559 --> 00:18:18.000 which is an out you know, recreation, outdoor equipment and 299 00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:24.279 clothing manufacturer, and they are located in Ventura, where I 300 00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:27.240 actually worked for the La Times for a years. So 301 00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:29.519 I remember driving by that office and I can't remember 302 00:18:29.559 --> 00:18:32.119 if we were there at the same time, but so 303 00:18:32.200 --> 00:18:35.640 he worked there for I think about a year, and 304 00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:41.720 Carol was working she was working with some domestic violence 305 00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:45.039 victims and she was working I believe also at a 306 00:18:45.079 --> 00:18:52.839 community hospital there. And then Steve left unders under a 307 00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:55.559 little bit of a cloud, I think, based on what 308 00:18:55.720 --> 00:19:01.720 Sturgist told me, getting involved with someone at work while 309 00:19:01.759 --> 00:19:06.640 he was married, which was browned upon by the owner's wife, 310 00:19:06.680 --> 00:19:09.640 who was pretty involved in the culture and in the company. 311 00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:12.960 So he ended up getting a job at Prescott College 312 00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:17.480 as a sociology professor, and they so they moved to 313 00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:21.680 Prescott and back to where he had gone to college. 314 00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:26.440 So he's back at his alma mater, and within a 315 00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:30.640 short order, actually he's promoted to dean. But Carol comes 316 00:19:30.680 --> 00:19:34.480 to work there also, and she's teaching yoga, psychology and 317 00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:40.720 dream work, and they have their first daughter, actually before 318 00:19:40.839 --> 00:19:45.759 they get to Prescott, Katie is born, and then they 319 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:50.319 have a second daughter, Charlotte, while they're living in Prescott. 320 00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:56.440 Now with this is TWLL, I would is ironic and 321 00:19:56.480 --> 00:19:58.000 this might be just a little bit out of place, 322 00:19:58.039 --> 00:20:02.799 but I've the idea that one of her big she 323 00:20:02.839 --> 00:20:05.200 had a lot of ambitions. Again we'll talk about artwork 324 00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:07.640 a little bit later, but one of the things she 325 00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:09.839 really wanted to do was to write a book about 326 00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:10.839 domestic violence. 327 00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:16.319 So I thought, yeah, I was really touched when I 328 00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:20.359 read this because Carol's mom and I talked on the 329 00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:23.799 phone and she was really sweet and sent me this 330 00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:29.480 packet of stuff that she had gone through her you know, belongings, 331 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:33.599 and had sent me a kind of a selection of things, 332 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:38.519 you know, some cards that Carol had sent her because 333 00:20:38.519 --> 00:20:43.200 I could see her handwriting, and some emails that Carol 334 00:20:43.240 --> 00:20:49.039 had written. And actually this newspaper article which was kind 335 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:53.119 of yellowed and old, where Carol had been interviewed by 336 00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:59.720 a small community paper back when I guess Steve was 337 00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:04.559 probably still working on his PhD and Carol was working 338 00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:07.680 in I think they were in Vermont, and then she 339 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:13.279 was also teaching and working in New York. And the 340 00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:16.480 reporter interviewed about this teaching and she got hired at 341 00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:21.039 this college, and at that time she said that it 342 00:21:21.079 --> 00:21:23.200 was one of her goals that she wanted to write 343 00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:26.400 a book about domestic violence. And so when I saw that, 344 00:21:27.400 --> 00:21:30.200 I just kind of felt like, Wow, I felt almost 345 00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:32.759 like I had her blessing because that's essentially what I 346 00:21:32.839 --> 00:21:34.400 was doing by writing her story. 347 00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:38.799 Now at the college, at Prescott College, he has a 348 00:21:38.839 --> 00:21:41.160 really good run there, if you say, for five years, 349 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:46.079 I believe, And then there's a storm cloud again, And 350 00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:49.880 what's that attributable to? What are the rumors flying around? 351 00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:53.720 What's his behavior consisting of that? What happens? 352 00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:58.440 Yeah, Well, what I was told by people who you know, 353 00:21:58.519 --> 00:22:01.880 went to the college work at the college which lived 354 00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:07.240 in town. And mind you, this was tricky because everybody, 355 00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:10.400 you know, it's a very small town. Everybody knows each other, 356 00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:15.480 everybody knows each other's business. So I used, you know, 357 00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:21.759 the investigators' reports. I went through hundreds and hundreds and 358 00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:27.799 thousands of pages of transcripts of interviews with witnesses that 359 00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:31.200 the detectives had interviewed. And also, you know, I did 360 00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:34.400 my own interviews, but there were people who you know, 361 00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:37.119 were scared to have me use their names because they 362 00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:39.880 were you know, didn't want to be They didn't want 363 00:22:39.880 --> 00:22:42.680 to be identified in such a small town. But basically, 364 00:22:42.680 --> 00:22:46.480 what I was told was that it seemed pretty well 365 00:22:46.519 --> 00:22:50.279 known that Steve was womanizing Carol also called Debbie and 366 00:22:50.319 --> 00:22:52.759 told her, you know, right around the time when she 367 00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:57.599 was pregnant with Charlotte, that he was even having an 368 00:22:57.640 --> 00:23:02.720 affair with the midwife who was delivering Charlotte. And there, 369 00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:06.799 you know, people's memories aren't perfect, but they thought it 370 00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:10.319 was when she was still pregnant with Charlotte. The midwife, 371 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:12.359 whose name I did not include in the book for 372 00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:18.960 privacy reasons, she told police that it was after the 373 00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:21.519 Charlotte was delivered, So I don't have any way to 374 00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:27.960 know for sure, but Steve was womanizing. Steve was having 375 00:23:28.039 --> 00:23:35.720 sex with nanny's babysitters, students, the midwife, apparently some staff 376 00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:39.640 members at the college, and there were some complaints filed 377 00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:42.839 not only because of the way that he interacted with 378 00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:45.799 the women at the college, but also just the way 379 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:49.480 he seemed to let the power. Because I mentioned he 380 00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:53.480 was promoted from professor to dean, the way that the 381 00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:57.680 power went to his you know, seemed to affect the 382 00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:01.480 way he conducted himself. So he was apparently very manipulative 383 00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:06.680 and people were put off by that, and so he 384 00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:08.720 didn't have a great reputation. I guess he wasn't all 385 00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:12.240 that well liked by people who he worked with. He 386 00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:15.519 did have a group of guys that he played poker with, 387 00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:22.039 and one of them helped him leave the college and 388 00:24:22.599 --> 00:24:26.079 move on to the finance world. When you're ready to 389 00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:26.519 get to that. 390 00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:30.880 Yeah, well let's talk about that again. His friend Sturgis 391 00:24:31.039 --> 00:24:35.119 Robinson comes into play, and then there's a big shift, 392 00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:37.680 and let's talk about that shift. And then after that, 393 00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:41.400 I've pose a question for you on how does Carol 394 00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:45.160 feel about this? Just different direction for her husband. 395 00:24:47.160 --> 00:24:52.079 Well, what Steve decided is that one day, I guess 396 00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:54.839 he told his mom that he wanted to move from 397 00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:58.640 academics into finance, and she said, well, why do you 398 00:24:58.680 --> 00:25:01.480 want to stop helping people? And I you know, I 399 00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:04.519 got this from her statement that she made at the 400 00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:07.519 sentencing hearing, and that was about the only thing that 401 00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:11.000