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We're gonna be my long 15 00:00:28.239 --> 00:00:30.160 eighteen plus terms conditions of the bus you want everytails. 16 00:00:37.840 --> 00:00:41.200 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 17 00:00:41.320 --> 00:00:44.359 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 18 00:00:44.439 --> 00:00:50.520 written about them. Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker DTK 19 00:00:51.439 --> 00:00:55.240 every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 20 00:00:55.359 --> 00:00:59.399 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 21 00:00:59.560 --> 00:01:02.960 your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 22 00:01:13.640 --> 00:01:17.159 Good Evening, dubbed by The New York Times, is one 23 00:01:17.159 --> 00:01:20.719 of the most vexing and unexplained mysteries in aviation history. 24 00:01:21.359 --> 00:01:24.319 The crash of Pan American World Airways Flight seven in 25 00:01:24.359 --> 00:01:28.400 November nineteen fifty seven resulted in forty four deaths and 26 00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:33.920 remains officially unsolved to this day. But Ken H. Fortenberry, 27 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:36.879 an award winning journalist whose father was the co pilot 28 00:01:36.920 --> 00:01:40.680 and navigator aboard the ill fated plane, has devoted nearly 29 00:01:40.760 --> 00:01:43.879 sixty years of his life to unraveling this cold case mystery. 30 00:01:44.680 --> 00:01:48.000 It has come to a staggering conclusion that the victims 31 00:01:48.040 --> 00:01:53.239 of the crash were murdered. A remarkably researched book packed 32 00:01:53.239 --> 00:01:57.239 with information and emotion, Flight seven Is Missing The Search 33 00:01:57.280 --> 00:02:00.879 from My Father's Killer is a gripping page that reads 34 00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:05.239 like a fast paced murder mystery. Joined Fortonberry on his 35 00:02:05.319 --> 00:02:09.280 crusade as he tiresly tracks down every possible lead and 36 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:13.879 eventually exposes the person he believes responsible for this tragic crime. 37 00:02:15.520 --> 00:02:18.400 The book they're featuring this evening is Flight seven Is 38 00:02:18.479 --> 00:02:22.280 Missing The Search for My Father's Killer, with my special guest, 39 00:02:22.360 --> 00:02:26.599 journalist and author Ken H. Fortonberry. Welcome to the program, 40 00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:29.280 and thank you so much for this interview. Ken H. 41 00:02:29.520 --> 00:02:32.520 Fort Berry, Thank you, Dan, and had a pleasure to 42 00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:32.919 be with you. 43 00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:37.240 Thank you so much for this This is a remarkable 44 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:42.360 personal and exciting I got to say, very very exciting story. 45 00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:49.080 Let's just give our audience your background in newspapers and 46 00:02:49.479 --> 00:02:55.199 as an investigative reporter, and what that experience has taught you, 47 00:02:55.319 --> 00:03:00.000 what important lessons, the most important lessons has that taught you? 48 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:04.759 Well? Thanks? Dan. I spent gosh nearly fifty years as 49 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:09.400 an investigative reporter and editor, primarily at newspapers in the 50 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:15.759 Southeast United States, and I'm just trying to give you 51 00:03:15.800 --> 00:03:18.639 some background here. I spent an awful lot of time 52 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:23.719 and investigative work, particularly with government agencies and public officials, 53 00:03:24.520 --> 00:03:27.680 and actually won more than two hundred awards or state 54 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:33.960 national awards for journalism investigative work. And my entire life 55 00:03:34.439 --> 00:03:37.759 as a journalist has been dedicated to the premise that 56 00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:41.400 the truth has got to come out, and I would 57 00:03:41.439 --> 00:03:46.039 pursue that at great personal costs many times to ensure 58 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:50.680 that that was done. I just have the belief that government, 59 00:03:50.719 --> 00:03:55.400 particularly was the responsibility to the people to be open, honest, 60 00:03:56.120 --> 00:03:59.199 and to be forthcoming in all time. So kind of 61 00:03:59.240 --> 00:04:02.280 as the premise for my background, I spent as I said, 62 00:04:02.360 --> 00:04:06.280 nearly fifty years and news paperwork. I started as investigator, reporter, 63 00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:11.919 and concluded as an owner of group papers in North Carolina. 64 00:04:13.479 --> 00:04:17.720 But have done the gamut of everything. I mean, I've 65 00:04:17.720 --> 00:04:21.279 tackled corrupt sheriffs. I wrote a book in nineteen eighty 66 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:24.600 nine called Kill the Messenger about a corrupt sheriff in 67 00:04:24.600 --> 00:04:30.439 South Carolina whose friends pretty much terroorized my family and 68 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:33.439 have just dedicated my life to pursuing the truth. 69 00:04:34.639 --> 00:04:37.920 Now we're going to go to November eighth, nineteen fifty seven, 70 00:04:37.959 --> 00:04:39.839 as you do in your book, and get right to 71 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:44.839 this incredibly dramatic scene that you have here. But before 72 00:04:44.879 --> 00:04:49.160 we do that, tell us a little bit about your father, 73 00:04:49.279 --> 00:04:55.040 Bill Fortonberry, and his background in aviation and what his 74 00:04:55.240 --> 00:05:01.839 role was on this Pan American flight seven Honolulu, and 75 00:05:01.879 --> 00:05:02.439 a little. 76 00:05:02.240 --> 00:05:08.600 Bit of mind Go ahead, go ahead, I'm sorry, go ahead, no, 77 00:05:08.959 --> 00:05:12.680 I fat There was a former former Navy pilot, a 78 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:17.160 World War Two pilot, who joined Pan American in Miami, 79 00:05:17.199 --> 00:05:22.199 Florida in early nineteen fifties as a navigator co pilot, 80 00:05:22.839 --> 00:05:26.399 and he was in San Francisco at the time as 81 00:05:26.439 --> 00:05:30.160 a co pilot on this particular flight. He'd been a 82 00:05:30.160 --> 00:05:33.600 pilot since his teens actually, and had a great deal 83 00:05:33.639 --> 00:05:37.680 of experience. On this particular flight, he was around the 84 00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:41.480 world flight that began in San Francisco to Honolulu and 85 00:05:41.560 --> 00:05:44.800 ultimately back to the United States around the world. So 86 00:05:44.839 --> 00:05:47.720 they had a fairly large crew that would sub out 87 00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:50.360 along the way, and this was just the first leg 88 00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:52.519 of the flight San Francisco to Honolulu, and where he 89 00:05:52.560 --> 00:05:58.560 acted as the navigator and a co pilot. You know 90 00:05:58.839 --> 00:06:01.279 I mentioned this, Go ahead. 91 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:06.160 I'm sorry you talk about that your situation. You have 92 00:06:06.240 --> 00:06:11.360 two other brothers and your mother, and so that you 93 00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:14.360 were accustomed to your father being away quite a bit 94 00:06:14.439 --> 00:06:18.040 with with his with his work, and also that he 95 00:06:18.279 --> 00:06:22.399 sent letters from all far away places, loving letters to 96 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:26.399 your your mother and addressed to your boys, to you 97 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:31.839 boys as well. So tell us about this Boeing Strato 98 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:36.040 Cruiser and what it meant to aviation at that time. 99 00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:40.800 Well, Dan, the Strata Cruiser was at the time the largest, 100 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:45.560 the fastest, and most luxurious commercial aircraft of its time. 101 00:06:45.639 --> 00:06:50.720 It was essentially the Boeing seven of its day. It 102 00:06:50.839 --> 00:06:54.639 was a gigantic airplane, a four engine prop, but it 103 00:06:54.759 --> 00:06:59.279 was plagued with a lot of mechanical issues. Some people, 104 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:03.160 some pilots called it joked about the engines that it 105 00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:06.319 was a four engine plane, three burning and three turning 106 00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:09.199 in one burning. Because it did have a lot of issues, 107 00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:14.000 but pilots generally loved to fly because it was the 108 00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:17.879 premier aircraft of its time. It was the first pressurized aircraft. 109 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:22.360 It was just a luxurious airliner including an airplane, including 110 00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:28.199 a lounge, cocktail lounge and the belly that passengers could 111 00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:32.639 descend through a winding staircase and have cocktails on board. 112 00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:35.399 I mean, they served luxurious meals. This was the day 113 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:38.000 of the golden age of flying, as you probably recall, 114 00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:40.959 and then people dressed up to take a flight and 115 00:07:41.000 --> 00:07:43.839 it was a very special event and flying on a 116 00:07:43.879 --> 00:07:47.720 Strata cruiser was just about the most wonderful thing someone 117 00:07:47.720 --> 00:07:51.319 could do in the days of aviation in the fifties. 118 00:07:51.639 --> 00:07:54.199 The plane was a descendant of a World War two 119 00:07:54.199 --> 00:07:58.560 fly Boeing plane. It was converted into what it is 120 00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:01.720 what it was at that time, and it would hold 121 00:08:01.879 --> 00:08:05.839 up bullets in it. Dan they could convert the place 122 00:08:05.879 --> 00:08:08.480 to the plane to do that. So the plane was 123 00:08:08.519 --> 00:08:12.399 just a magnificent aircraft and people loved to fly it. 124 00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:18.639 Now there was just before we get to November eighth, 125 00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:22.720 nineteen fifty seven, this same Boeing Strado Cruiser, this luxury 126 00:08:23.319 --> 00:08:28.279 airline or this something that everyone loved to fly, including 127 00:08:28.279 --> 00:08:32.480 pilots and passengers. But something had happened a year before, 128 00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:35.840 and they had resorted to something called water ditching, and 129 00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:38.639 these pilots and co pilots and the crew were trained 130 00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:41.320 in this water ditching. Just tell us a little bit 131 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:44.159 about the sovereign of the Skies and what had happened 132 00:08:44.240 --> 00:08:47.080 a year before with this same plane. 133 00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:50.399 Okay, Dan, This sovereign of the Skies came off the 134 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:54.399 assembly line right before my plane, romanswered the Skies. It 135 00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:57.399 was registered in nine O nine four three, and this 136 00:08:57.559 --> 00:09:05.759 was nine four the flight from San Francisco to Honolulu, 137 00:09:06.600 --> 00:09:12.320 what they lost an engine and there not long afterwards 138 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:14.360 they lost another engine and there was no way for 139 00:09:14.440 --> 00:09:16.840 the pilot to make it to Honolulure, or certainly not 140 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:21.519 back to San Francisco. The pilot was the Captain Richard Ogg, 141 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:26.360 calm cool, professional fellow, who realized that he had a 142 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:29.519 desperate situation on his hand. But there was a caveat 143 00:09:29.559 --> 00:09:32.480 here because the coast Guard at that time had a 144 00:09:33.159 --> 00:09:37.080 floating cutter, and about midway and the ocean, and it 145 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:39.039 was the Poncher Train was the name of this one, 146 00:09:39.159 --> 00:09:42.399 and it was very close to where he had the 147 00:09:42.440 --> 00:09:46.679 engine problems with a Strata cruiser. So what he did 148 00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:50.759 was to let lurk the passengers that we're not going 149 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:52.960 to make it to the coast. We're going to be 150 00:09:53.039 --> 00:09:56.279 ditching this thing in the ocean. And he flew the 151 00:09:56.320 --> 00:10:00.519 rest of that night very low altitude to run off 152 00:10:00.559 --> 00:10:02.159 the fuel of the plane because he didn't want to 153 00:10:02.159 --> 00:10:05.519 ditch that thing in the ocean full of fuel obviously, 154 00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:08.840 and dishes as closely as he could to the coast 155 00:10:08.879 --> 00:10:13.480 Guard cutter. It was really first miracle on the Hudson 156 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:17.000 essentially because he did the same thing that the folks 157 00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:19.720 did with the US Air flight outside New York a 158 00:10:19.720 --> 00:10:22.879 few years ago. But very early in the morning he 159 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:27.000 alerted everyone that we're going down now, and everyone was 160 00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:30.879 prepared for that. The coast guard laid a foam runway 161 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:36.120 essentially on the ocean, and the plane landed and everyone 162 00:10:36.279 --> 00:10:42.039 got out that plane barely wet, and moments later it 163 00:10:42.159 --> 00:10:46.720 sunk to the bottom of the ocean. So this was 164 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:50.720 not The pilots were aware that something like this could happen. 165 00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:53.279 They were very well trained for this type of thing. 166 00:10:53.360 --> 00:10:58.039 It was certainly very unusual for something like that to occur, 167 00:10:58.440 --> 00:11:00.960 but it had happened in the past, and certainly that 168 00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:04.279 was on the minds of all these people, the pastors 169 00:11:04.320 --> 00:11:06.879 probably and the crew as well. I remember I mentioned 170 00:11:06.919 --> 00:11:10.440 my book my mother was petrified of Strata Cruiser and 171 00:11:10.480 --> 00:11:13.480 she just hated it when my dad would fly those planes. 172 00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:16.120 But of course that was the main thing the Panama 173 00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:19.519 was flying at the time, certainly around the world in 174 00:11:19.559 --> 00:11:23.519 their national flights. So I remember she said she had 175 00:11:23.519 --> 00:11:26.240 a conversation with him not long before that flight about 176 00:11:26.279 --> 00:11:30.559 how afraid she was ring flying on it, and he 177 00:11:30.679 --> 00:11:32.759 had kind of teased her that we might take a 178 00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:35.759 trip to Honolulu with the kids this year and maybe 179 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:38.440 you'll feel differently about the plane. At that time. Of course, 180 00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:41.159 we'd never made the Honolulu that year because the plane 181 00:11:41.159 --> 00:11:42.120 went down in November. 182 00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:48.759 Let's get to November eighth, nineteen fifty seven, and this 183 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:53.519 Boeing Stratocruiser, and your father's a veteran aviator on this 184 00:11:53.639 --> 00:11:56.879 flight to Honolulu. The pilot is Gordon H. Brown and 185 00:11:56.919 --> 00:12:02.080 the first officer was William T. Wagant. Tell us about 186 00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:07.519 the flight, and then about this particular time that pilots 187 00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:09.639 call the point of no return, tell us how the 188 00:12:09.679 --> 00:12:11.840 flight progresses up to the. 189 00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:16.000 Day Boy flight. The flight had absolutely no trouble at all. 190 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:20.919 Dan twenty minutes after takeoff. It was at plan cruising 191 00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:24.000 speed of two hundred and twenty six knots, and everyone 192 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:28.159 was settled in. These stewardesses began serving a light lunch 193 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:33.440 to everyone on board, and it was just a magnificent time. 194 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:37.039 As I said, they were passing out magazines and the 195 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:41.120 flight was just absolutely without any kind of hitch. And 196 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:44.759 there's a place that pilots called the point of no return. 197 00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:50.240 It's essentially midway on the flight across the ocean where 198 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:53.600 you have to go forward or you cou because you 199 00:12:53.639 --> 00:12:56.000 cannot go back, you don't have enough fuel to return, 200 00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:59.320 and you're in a situation where you simply have to 201 00:12:59.360 --> 00:13:02.080 go ahead with the flight or something else is going 202 00:13:02.159 --> 00:13:06.639 to happen. So, just a few minutes after they hit 203 00:13:06.679 --> 00:13:10.039 this point of no return and radio to the coastguard 204 00:13:10.039 --> 00:13:13.440 cutter on the ocean that everything was normal and everything 205 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:20.440 was fine, the planes has simply disappeared, and no one knows, 206 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:22.960 of course, what happened. Exactly at the time that people 207 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:26.279 thought maybe they just lost radio transmission. And you know, 208 00:13:26.360 --> 00:13:28.799 little did the fellow know on the coast Guard cutter. 209 00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:30.840 He was the last person on the planet to talk 210 00:13:30.919 --> 00:13:35.480 to that plane because everything was perfectly normal. There'd been 211 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:37.480 no issues with the plane at all, no issues with 212 00:13:37.559 --> 00:13:39.519 the flight at all until that time. 213 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:43.960 Now, what is the protocol? You say that at first, 214 00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:47.639 no one is really concerned because they haven't heard from 215 00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:51.759 that last location report. But what is the protocol? What 216 00:13:51.919 --> 00:13:56.279 is normally supposed to happen if there is any emergency whatsoever? 217 00:13:56.360 --> 00:14:00.639 What are the well the contingencies that prepare the pilots 218 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:02.039 for anything that could happen. 219 00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:05.000 Well, of course the trew as well trained for what 220 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:08.519 might happen. But beyond the crew, when they do not 221 00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:12.720 report in as they're supposed to report in the airline 222 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:18.120 panem at this time, then would alert officials, ships and everything. 223 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:21.399 It'd see that there's look out for this thing. But 224 00:14:21.759 --> 00:14:25.080 more importantly, I think they used air to air transmissions 225 00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:27.960 and are the planes in the area see if you 226 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:30.120 see this thing out there somewhere, or try to reach 227 00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:33.399 them on a radio. But here's the thing I think, Dan, 228 00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:35.639 you need to Remember, no one really thought was anything 229 00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:38.279 was wrong because they simply thought this is probably a 230 00:14:38.360 --> 00:14:42.000 radio transmission issue, or maybe they forgot to report. In 231 00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:46.279 This was not the days of satellites and that kind 232 00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:49.360 of tracking. These tracking of these airplanes was done by 233 00:14:49.879 --> 00:14:52.720 the old fashioned ways of looking at charting the stars 234 00:14:53.080 --> 00:14:56.320 and that sort of thing. So they didn't really worry 235 00:14:56.440 --> 00:14:59.799 initially because the plane had plenty fuel to make it 236 00:14:59.840 --> 00:15:04.759 on into Honolulu. So they alerted people that, yeah, he's 237 00:15:04.759 --> 00:15:08.519 not reporting. It's don't let's not be concerned yet, but 238 00:15:08.600 --> 00:15:10.960 let everyone know that the plane has not reported as 239 00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:14.279 it's supposed to report. And you know, an hour or 240 00:15:14.360 --> 00:15:16.799 so later, it's the word is getting out that this 241 00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:20.559 is this is certainly beyond the norm. The crew has 242 00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:23.960 simply not forgotten to make a report. There's got to 243 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:28.480 be something wrong. So the coast Guard was certainly alerted, 244 00:15:28.519 --> 00:15:33.559 and the coast Guard began to send aircraft and boats 245 00:15:33.559 --> 00:15:37.159 out from Honolulu and thinking they might find it's out 246 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:40.440 there somewhere. All the ships in Honolulu were asked to 247 00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:44.080 turn their lights on in case the plane simply had 248 00:15:44.120 --> 00:15:47.919 lost radio communication and the pilots could see maybe the 249 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:51.200 lights of Honolulu and the lights of the ships in 250 00:15:51.240 --> 00:15:53.879 Honolulu and helped guide them into the to the airport. 251 00:15:55.000 --> 00:15:57.519 But you know, it reached the point that they were 252 00:15:57.679 --> 00:16:00.200 out of fuel and there's no way the flight could 253 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:03.159 have made it in. And at that point the PanAm 254 00:16:03.399 --> 00:16:06.600 people went around to the folks waiting in the terminal 255 00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:10.519 in Honolulu and said, the flight's missing, and we'll let 256 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:12.480 you know what's going on, but right now, the flight 257 00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:15.240 is missing and they're out of fuel. Of course, my 258 00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:18.320 mother had been kept abreast of this during the evening 259 00:16:19.240 --> 00:16:22.600 from PanAm, calling her every hour or so to reassure 260 00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:25.440 her that it's probably going to be okay, everything's going 261 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:27.440 to be okay, and then finally they had to give 262 00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:29.519 her the call that you know, they're out of fuel 263 00:16:29.559 --> 00:16:33.679 now and they must be presumed down in the ocean somewhere. So, 264 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:36.120 you know, at that stage it became a massive air 265 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:39.399 sea search to find the plane, hopefully that it had 266 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:42.240 ditched successfully on the water in some fashion and they 267 00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:46.279 could find people on life rafts and wearing life jackets 268 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:48.000 and would be rescued. So it was a search and 269 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:51.759 rescue mission initially, but they had no clue where the 270 00:16:51.799 --> 00:16:54.320 plane was. Dan. I think that's one of the big 271 00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:57.240 problems because they reported everything was fine and that was 272 00:16:57.279 --> 00:16:59.519 the last location they had for so that's where they 273 00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:03.159 had to begin looking. So they sent PanAm, sent out 274 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:08.079 aircraft from Honolulu and San Francisco, the Air Force and 275 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:11.640 sent out aircraft, Australian Air Force sent out of aircraft 276 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:15.599 and everyone. Any flights were flying over the Pacific of 277 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:20.000 that time, commercial flights flew low and the crew told 278 00:17:20.039 --> 00:17:22.200 the passengers look out your windows and see if you 279 00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:25.440 see anything, because that's how frantic it was, and that 280 00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:28.240 they were just looking for, as one of the searchers said, 281 00:17:28.279 --> 00:17:29.359 a needle in a haystack. 282 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:36.279 You talk about how big a search this was and 283 00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:39.279 how broadened area they had to search, one hundred and 284 00:17:39.319 --> 00:17:43.759 fifty thousand square miles. Tell us more about the search 285 00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:44.599 that's undertaken. 286 00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:48.799 Well, I think the thing to remember about this is that, 287 00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:52.000 as I said, it was a needle in a haystack, 288 00:17:52.039 --> 00:17:56.079 you're talking about finding a small plane on a gigantic ocean, 289 00:17:56.680 --> 00:18:01.079 and they put every kind of resource they had available. 290 00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:04.240 They called it at the time the biggest airs search 291 00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:08.319 since the search for the Amelia are Heart and her 292 00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:13.279 missing aircraft many years before that. So every kind of 293 00:18:13.319 --> 00:18:16.799 resource available was devoted to this. Even had submarines all 294 00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:21.960 things looking for this, and and commercial cruise ships crossing 295 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:25.160 the ocean. They all got involved in the search. So 296 00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:28.319 I mean a Quantis airliner was flying over the area 297 00:18:28.279 --> 00:18:30.440 as a matter of fact, and when he learned about it, 298 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:33.200 the pilot descended down to five thousand feet and followed 299 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:37.319 along the route of the plane and asked the passengers 300 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:39.279 look out, see if you see anything. But no one 301 00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:42.279 saw anything. It just went on for days and days 302 00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:45.599 and days, and of course it became obviously more grim. 303 00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:48.160 You know that as the days went on, that this 304 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:52.440 is this is not good. This plane is down and 305 00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:56.119 you know, you're looking at two hundred square miles of ocean. 306 00:18:56.160 --> 00:18:58.480 I think essentially what it was was it amounted to. 307 00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:01.240 But you know, people still held out hope, and my 308 00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:04.480 mother held out hope, and you know, everybody held out 309 00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:08.279 the hope that something was going to be found. But 310 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:10.319 you know, they would see saying things in the water, 311 00:19:10.359 --> 00:19:12.039 floating in the water and think that's a part of 312 00:19:12.039 --> 00:19:14.319 the aircraft and it turns out that was nothing. They 313 00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:16.400 would see an oil slick in the water and think 314 00:19:16.519 --> 00:19:19.079 that was something, and of course that turned out to 315 00:19:19.079 --> 00:19:21.960 be nothing. And this just went on day after day 316 00:19:22.039 --> 00:19:25.079 after day, and of course I didn't like any other 317 00:19:25.160 --> 00:19:27.079 six year old, I guess at the time, I'm confident 318 00:19:27.079 --> 00:19:28.920 they're going to find my dad. He's a good swimmer, 319 00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:32.599 and everybody's going to live happily ever after. But you know, 320 00:19:32.680 --> 00:19:35.359 it turned out that it didn't work out that way. 321 00:19:37.960 --> 00:19:42.839 Tell us about what they finally do find in the 322 00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:46.519 in the ocean and what they can conclude about the 323 00:19:46.599 --> 00:19:47.440 crash itself. 324 00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:53.319 Okay, the main aircraft carrier that was involved in this 325 00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:56.640 search was USS Philippine Sea, and it was a docked 326 00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:00.599 at Long Beach north of Los Angeles, and and it 327 00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:05.359 had helicopters and propeller driven aircraft and a full crew, 328 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:09.960 and it was essentially the home base for the folks 329 00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:14.319 who were searching for the plane. And they went day 330 00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:17.640 after day criss crossing the ocean. They mapped an ocean 331 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:21.319 out for the search, and the planes flew from sun 332 00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:25.680 up to sundown as late as they could fly looking 333 00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:28.920 for something. They just crisscrossed this area. And you know, 334 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:31.599 I think, as I recall, it seemed like they had 335 00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:37.359 thirty planes, fourteen boats, two submarines involved in this search 336 00:20:37.640 --> 00:20:41.039 at one time, and coast Guard spokes and said, we 337 00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:43.279 have everything that will float or fly that we can 338 00:20:43.319 --> 00:20:47.319 put our hands on as involved in the search. So, 339 00:20:47.559 --> 00:20:49.920 I mean, hope began to fade obviously that they were 340 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:53.920 going to find anything on the plane. And it became 341 00:20:54.440 --> 00:20:56.759 obvious that not only was the plane down, but there 342 00:20:56.759 --> 00:21:02.359 was very likely not going to be any survivers to that. So, 343 00:21:02.680 --> 00:21:07.680 uh one morning, and I can't recall how many days later, 344 00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:13.920 it was well over a week. Uh later, a plane 345 00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:17.759 spotted what he believed to be, uh some debris in 346 00:21:17.799 --> 00:21:21.279 the ocean, and he moved down and closer and determined 347 00:21:21.319 --> 00:21:24.720 the s and d that was a piece of the aircraft. 348 00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:29.519 I believe it was this aircraft. And Uh then everybody 349 00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:33.920 zoomed in on that area and they began to, you know, 350 00:21:34.039 --> 00:21:38.519 find little bits and pieces of wreckage, and ultimately a 351 00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:41.440 body or two there was floating on the water here 352 00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:47.079 and there. It took them the rest of the next 353 00:21:47.079 --> 00:21:50.200 two days, I think, essentially to to search and finally 354 00:21:50.920 --> 00:21:52.920 just give up hope. I mean, they had they were 355 00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:55.079 They had folks then who were pulling bodies out of 356 00:21:55.079 --> 00:21:57.920 the water that sharks were attacking. As the sailors were 357 00:21:57.920 --> 00:22:02.440 pulling them up onto to the little boats, and I 358 00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:05.640 suspect and the theory is that a number of the people, 359 00:22:05.680 --> 00:22:08.039 of course, the bodies that were recovered had been pretty 360 00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:11.039 extensively hit by the sharks, but a number of the 361 00:22:11.079 --> 00:22:14.559 people who were not found likely were eaten by sharks 362 00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:19.960 on the ocean. But this fellow guy named Earl Kolowski 363 00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:23.000 and Dan John Stanley, they found some of this wreckage 364 00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:24.519 and then they you know, they look down there and 365 00:22:24.519 --> 00:22:28.799 there's lifeless bodies. There's arms and legs outstretched and they're 366 00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:32.480 floating under water. And the helicopters came in and ultimately 367 00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:38.000 they plucked nineteen bodies of forty four from the ocean 368 00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:42.960 there and precious little bit of cargo. This was a 369 00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:48.160 seventy ton aircraft and they came up with maybe five 370 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:51.160 hundred pounds of wreckage and a little bit of mail. 371 00:22:51.240 --> 00:22:53.960 And that was stretching an area of eleven miles long 372 00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:56.799 and three miles wide. It was spread out over that 373 00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:00.640 large area. They brought all that a board the aircraft 374 00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:04.680 carrier Philippine Sea and they documented what they could. They 375 00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:08.160 put the bodies in cold freezer storage, essentially began doing 376 00:23:08.200 --> 00:23:13.960 some initial investigation of the body, but they still had 377 00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:16.160 no clue what happened to the plane. There were so 378 00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:20.960 many theories early on, from everything from a meteor hitting 379 00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:26.200 the plane to a bomb exploding on the plane, and 380 00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:30.559 nobody had a clue what happened. And the truth of 381 00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:34.400 the matter is, years later, they still didn't know what happened, 382 00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:38.880 in that the crew had and the passengers had been alerted, 383 00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:41.079 at least some of them had been alerted that something 384 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:44.119 is wrong here because some of them had life jackets 385 00:23:44.200 --> 00:23:48.000 on and some of them did not, which is really 386 00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:50.880 kind of hard to explain, except that some pastors in 387 00:23:50.920 --> 00:23:53.559 one particular part of the plane had more life jackets 388 00:23:53.559 --> 00:23:55.839 than those in another part of the plane, So maybe 389 00:23:55.880 --> 00:23:58.640 people in one section were more aware of what was 390 00:23:58.920 --> 00:24:03.160 about to happen than others. But you know, the plane, 391 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:08.119 the carrier went back to Long Beach, and investigation, of 392 00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:11.240 course got underway before they got back to Long Beach, 393 00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:17.000 but it really got very intense when they ported in 394 00:24:17.079 --> 00:24:20.319 Long Beach again and the mortuary crew came in and 395 00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:23.759 people began investigating the bodies and what little bit of 396 00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:24.599 wreckage was there. 397 00:24:26.359 --> 00:24:29.440 You talk about the forty four people that were on 398 00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:34.920 board and no survivors obviously, But now you take us 399 00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:41.160 to November one, a week before in nineteen fifty seven, 400 00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:46.160 before this fatal flight to Santa Cruz, California, and a 401 00:24:46.200 --> 00:24:51.599