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We're prohibited by lack eight team 24 00:00:57.799 --> 00:00:59.079 plus terms and conditions apply. 25 00:00:59.200 --> 00:00:59.799 See website for. 26 00:01:08.439 --> 00:01:11.840 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 27 00:01:11.959 --> 00:01:14.959 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 28 00:01:15.079 --> 00:01:22.319 written about him. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 29 00:01:22.400 --> 00:01:26.040 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 30 00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:30.319 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 31 00:01:30.359 --> 00:01:34.159 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 32 00:01:43.040 --> 00:01:47.799 Good Evening. The Fifth and sixth Amendments to the Constitution 33 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:51.959 of the United States guarantee the right against self incrimination, 34 00:01:52.760 --> 00:01:55.519 the right to remain silent, and the right to counsel. 35 00:01:56.840 --> 00:02:00.439 A crime wave swept California in the late nineteen sixties. 36 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:05.040 Several young girls were abducted, raped and murdered. Michael D. 37 00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:08.680 Matson was convicted of these crimes and sentenced to death. 38 00:02:10.039 --> 00:02:13.639 Law Clerk by day, family Man by Night In nineteen 39 00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:18.280 eighty two. Jim Potts, a brilliant, idealistic African American law student, 40 00:02:19.240 --> 00:02:21.639 is honored when one of his professors recruits him to 41 00:02:21.680 --> 00:02:24.080 assist in writing a death penalty appeal on behalf of 42 00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:28.360 a serial killer. Potts discovers a loophole in the case 43 00:02:28.439 --> 00:02:32.800 that somehow had been overlooked, one that could not only 44 00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:35.599 get Matson off death row, but once presented to the 45 00:02:35.639 --> 00:02:39.199 Supreme Court of California could release him to rape and 46 00:02:39.319 --> 00:02:43.639 murder again. When Potts confides in his pregnant wife, she says, 47 00:02:43.719 --> 00:02:47.960 if Matson goes free, their marriage is over. But if 48 00:02:48.039 --> 00:02:51.759 Potts quits the case or withholds information, he violates his 49 00:02:51.879 --> 00:02:55.120 duty to client and constitution and risks his career before 50 00:02:55.159 --> 00:02:59.319 it even begins. A moral dilemma with no good way out. 51 00:03:00.280 --> 00:03:03.199 To avoid losing his family and releasing pure evil back 52 00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:06.400 into the world, Potts must be smarter than his options. 53 00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:09.120 He must find a way to keep his family together, 54 00:03:09.960 --> 00:03:14.439 fulfill his duties, and keep Mattson behind bars. But can 55 00:03:14.560 --> 00:03:18.240 he The book we're featuring this evening is defending a 56 00:03:18.360 --> 00:03:21.759 serial killer the right to counsel, with my special guest, 57 00:03:21.800 --> 00:03:25.000 attorney and author Jim Potts. Welcome to the program, and 58 00:03:25.039 --> 00:03:26.319 thank you so much for this interview. 59 00:03:26.680 --> 00:03:30.680 Jim Potts, Hey, thank you very much for having me, Dan, 60 00:03:30.759 --> 00:03:31.479 I appreciate it. 61 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:35.479 Thank you so much. This is a remarkable story and 62 00:03:35.560 --> 00:03:40.960 a very unique perspective you have in this book, as 63 00:03:41.039 --> 00:03:44.360 you do in the book. Let's talk about Michael D. Mattson. 64 00:03:47.319 --> 00:03:49.439 Well, he was definitely a piece of work. There's no 65 00:03:49.560 --> 00:03:54.240 doubt about it. You know, I think that what happened 66 00:03:54.240 --> 00:03:56.560 to him was that he was a product of his environment. 67 00:03:57.680 --> 00:04:03.120 As a child, in all honesty, went through that parent situation. 68 00:04:04.039 --> 00:04:06.000 And not all step parents are bad, so let me 69 00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:08.759 make make let me make that clear. But in his 70 00:04:08.919 --> 00:04:14.199 particular case, you know, as a child, his mother started 71 00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:17.160 noticing certain things about him, certain things that he was doing. 72 00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:20.839 Some people say that he because of the fact that 73 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:27.680 he was abused by his stepfather, physically abused, that that 74 00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:32.680 had a definite impact on him without a doubt. So 75 00:04:32.759 --> 00:04:37.519 at a very early age, he was using drugs and 76 00:04:37.639 --> 00:04:40.759 that was part of the problem. He would he would 77 00:04:40.839 --> 00:04:43.000 he would drink a case of beer and you're talking 78 00:04:43.000 --> 00:04:46.079 about in his teens as an example, and he would 79 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:48.319 get into all kinds of these different drugs that you know, 80 00:04:48.360 --> 00:04:53.199 we hallucinate things of that nature. So his childhood was 81 00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:56.720 a definite factor in my opinion in terms of who 82 00:04:56.759 --> 00:04:59.439 he turned out to be. And even even the court 83 00:04:59.480 --> 00:05:05.839 appointings psychologist related back to the same time frame that 84 00:05:05.959 --> 00:05:08.600 he may have been impacted mentally because of the way 85 00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:10.519 that he was abused and the things that he saw 86 00:05:11.079 --> 00:05:13.160 because he not only he was not only abused, but 87 00:05:13.199 --> 00:05:15.800 his mother was abused by this by this person as well. 88 00:05:16.720 --> 00:05:20.240 So those are factors for him. But his mother started 89 00:05:20.360 --> 00:05:26.120 noticing things about him as well, with him wearing female 90 00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:28.600 clothing as an example, one time she caught him in 91 00:05:28.639 --> 00:05:31.560 a field and he was wearing a dress and other 92 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:35.000 things that he would do that you know, that concerned her. 93 00:05:35.079 --> 00:05:38.920 He had this one episode where he had a young 94 00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:43.639 friend of his where he actually made the kids strip 95 00:05:43.800 --> 00:05:47.279 down with the kid and stuck a broomstick up his rear, 96 00:05:47.480 --> 00:05:49.720 you know, things of that nature. And so again this 97 00:05:49.879 --> 00:05:52.000 was at a very very young age, made the kid 98 00:05:52.120 --> 00:05:55.040 walk home like that. You know. What was interesting is 99 00:05:55.160 --> 00:05:58.759 what I didn't find was what the parents of that 100 00:05:58.959 --> 00:06:02.120 child even did have they reacted to any of that. Unfortunately, 101 00:06:02.199 --> 00:06:04.439 I don't have that His mother was the one that 102 00:06:04.519 --> 00:06:07.839 related the information from that perspective in terms of what happened. 103 00:06:10.040 --> 00:06:15.199 So he just developed, in my opinion, into this monster. 104 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:18.800 And I think it really did start with the abuseity 105 00:06:19.360 --> 00:06:21.480 you know that he received as well as the abuse 106 00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:24.319 that he saw. Now, he may have used alcohol and 107 00:06:24.439 --> 00:06:26.800 drugs as an escape in my opinion, but I think 108 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:33.839 those things eventually overtook him. So he as he moved along, 109 00:06:33.879 --> 00:06:37.720 he ended up going into service. He was up in Oregon, 110 00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:44.120 and when he was up there, he basically went awol 111 00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:47.680 and while he was while he was away when he 112 00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:53.399 wasn't supposed to be, he actually kidnapped this young lady 113 00:06:53.800 --> 00:06:58.000 and her brother, both of them, and as a result 114 00:06:58.040 --> 00:07:02.480 of that he was convicted raped her, robbed her, basically 115 00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:04.439 made the brother leaves and drove off in the car 116 00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:07.759 and took her to a secluded place. So he eventually 117 00:07:07.839 --> 00:07:12.480 got caught and he had to do time for that crime. Obviously, 118 00:07:13.240 --> 00:07:17.480 now the purpose people argue that the purpose of you know, 119 00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:21.040 then go to jail, you're supposed to rehabilitate, etc. But 120 00:07:21.160 --> 00:07:24.439 the sad part in his particular case was that he 121 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:29.759 didn't rehabilitate because is what he did was in his mind, 122 00:07:31.879 --> 00:07:36.319 he developed this attitude that in the future, if he 123 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:40.079 in fact engages in the same behavior which he intended 124 00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:43.240 to do, then he would kill his victims so that 125 00:07:43.639 --> 00:07:46.120 the victims could not come back and testify against him. 126 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:49.920 And that's the sad part about this with him, is 127 00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:52.480 that his mind, in my opinion, was so demented at 128 00:07:52.519 --> 00:07:55.800 that time that it was just a matter of time 129 00:07:56.279 --> 00:08:01.680 when he would go even further and include murder in 130 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:05.319 his actions. So I hope that answered your basic question 131 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:05.759 on him. 132 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:10.279 You talked about that you mentioned and you write about 133 00:08:10.439 --> 00:08:14.560 a counselor named Jacobs that spoke to him about twelve 134 00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:18.839 months before any of this killing occurred, and she had 135 00:08:18.920 --> 00:08:23.040 some dramatic conclusions based on what he had said to 136 00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:26.000 her regarding women and his hatred for them. 137 00:08:28.399 --> 00:08:35.519 He the reason why I think he hated women was 138 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:39.519 because what I understood from the relationship he had with 139 00:08:39.639 --> 00:08:42.879 his mother is that his mother did not protect him 140 00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:47.519 from the abuse of the stepfather, right, and as a 141 00:08:47.559 --> 00:08:53.519 result of that, he was psychologically damaged because and again 142 00:08:53.559 --> 00:08:56.240 I'm not a psychologist, let me make that clear, but 143 00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:02.360 he resented that normally, and I'm just speaking in general now, 144 00:09:03.399 --> 00:09:05.720 are supposed to protect their children, and I think children 145 00:09:05.799 --> 00:09:10.720 look for that protection and when it wasn't there, I 146 00:09:10.840 --> 00:09:15.320 think that that psychologically damaged him and that's why he 147 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:19.200 hated He hated women. But you know the odd part 148 00:09:19.240 --> 00:09:21.759 about that then, is that if he hated women so much, 149 00:09:23.039 --> 00:09:26.039 why did he dress in women's clothes. I mean, even 150 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:28.480 when he got captured, there were female there was female 151 00:09:28.519 --> 00:09:32.360 attire in the car, and the mother when the police 152 00:09:32.360 --> 00:09:37.279 officers called her. She told them, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, 153 00:09:37.399 --> 00:09:39.200 there would be women's clothes in his car because she 154 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:41.519 knows that he dresses women. So think about that for 155 00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:45.120 a second. Where's the conflict there? It just at once 156 00:09:45.159 --> 00:09:47.159 again it is the point that proves that he was 157 00:09:47.279 --> 00:09:52.799 just so mentally scrambled, so to speak, that he turned 158 00:09:52.840 --> 00:09:56.200 into this monster. Because if he hated women, why would 159 00:09:56.240 --> 00:10:00.720 you dress as a woman. You have to wonder. 160 00:10:02.200 --> 00:10:07.480 You called them a gamester. But still he was deemed 161 00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:09.519 competent to stand trial by a judge. 162 00:10:12.279 --> 00:10:16.240 He was a gagster. He was a good looking guy, 163 00:10:17.919 --> 00:10:23.840 and he would use those looks to lure these young 164 00:10:23.919 --> 00:10:26.519 women in, including his very first biot to all of them, 165 00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:28.720 actually except for the very last one when he got 166 00:10:28.759 --> 00:10:31.679 caught in Las Vegas. That on was just was just 167 00:10:31.759 --> 00:10:34.639 a forced situation. But the other ones weren't force situations. 168 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:40.799 He used his looks and his charm so to speak, 169 00:10:41.799 --> 00:10:46.039 to lure these women in. And that's the staff part. 170 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:48.039 But that's why I said he's a gangster. He is. 171 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:53.919 He was. You write in July nineteen seventy eight in 172 00:10:54.039 --> 00:10:56.799 Los Angeles, you and your wife Betty were expecting your 173 00:10:56.840 --> 00:11:00.879 first child. It was a complicated pregnancy, you were working 174 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:04.159 full time and attending law school five nights a week. 175 00:11:06.440 --> 00:11:09.000 There's a lot of pressure on you. And tell us 176 00:11:09.039 --> 00:11:16.120 about newscast that you happened to view at that time. 177 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:19.759 We were watching TV, and just to make to back 178 00:11:19.879 --> 00:11:22.320 up for a second, Yeah, Betty was bedridden at two 179 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:27.440 months with the pregnancy, so for her, she was very 180 00:11:27.559 --> 00:11:30.200 in tune to this business about having a child and 181 00:11:30.279 --> 00:11:33.240 things of that nature. So basically, what was going on 182 00:11:33.559 --> 00:11:36.879 we were watching We're just watching the news as people 183 00:11:36.960 --> 00:11:39.480 do in the evening, I fixing vent on whether the 184 00:11:39.559 --> 00:11:44.639 case may be. And we saw the situation where the 185 00:11:44.720 --> 00:11:48.080 little girl had been kidnapped. All right, loud, no excuse me, 186 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:51.200 was missing. Let's start off with that was missing, and 187 00:11:51.320 --> 00:11:53.279 that it was a man hunt that was going on. 188 00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:58.240 Ellie County Sheriff's Department was handling that, and you know, 189 00:11:58.360 --> 00:12:00.399 they were talking about the fact that this little girl 190 00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:04.679 I was missing from the from the community park that 191 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:09.639 she and her sibling was at and everybody's looking for 192 00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:13.080 it basically, and she was only nine years old. So 193 00:12:13.159 --> 00:12:14.960 as you as you can imagine, you got a nine 194 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:16.879 year old is missing. And these days it doesn't matter 195 00:12:16.919 --> 00:12:19.000 whether they're nine or whatever the age is, people are 196 00:12:19.039 --> 00:12:20.759 going to try to do a manhut. They go door 197 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:24.360 to door and they start searching. So La County Sheriff's 198 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:27.399 apartment was on the news talking about that we had 199 00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:31.120 a nine year old girl missing and they wanted to 200 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:34.720 put the information out there. Have you know, have you 201 00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:36.919 seen her? I think we've all seen those types of 202 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:41.240 newscasts even today. You see him sure from time to time. 203 00:12:42.720 --> 00:12:46.120 So that caught our attention. Now it's at first it 204 00:12:46.279 --> 00:12:49.480 was just a little girl missing, which is always a 205 00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:53.240 sad situation. They suspected something was going on, but they 206 00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:57.039 did they did not know. And then I believe it 207 00:12:57.159 --> 00:13:00.399 was the maintenance person who said that he that he 208 00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:04.000 had seen this particular vehicle okay, and that he thinks 209 00:13:04.080 --> 00:13:06.039 that the girl may have gotten into the vehicle, which 210 00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:08.000 is even worse at that point because then it turns 211 00:13:08.519 --> 00:13:12.320 it turned from a missing child to a kidnapped missing child, 212 00:13:12.440 --> 00:13:15.919 and that makes a big difference. So that's what happened. 213 00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:17.759 So of course we discussed it. I mean, people, you know, 214 00:13:17.799 --> 00:13:19.480 you're laying there and it's, oh my god, nine year 215 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:24.440 old girl missing, possibly abducted, and those kind of things 216 00:13:25.799 --> 00:13:30.679 will always you know, you know, make the normal civil 217 00:13:30.759 --> 00:13:34.879 person very upset. I think I mentioned in the book. 218 00:13:34.879 --> 00:13:36.360 I'm time to remember if I mentioned in the book 219 00:13:36.399 --> 00:13:39.679 or not about the fact that the same child that 220 00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:43.399 Betty was pregnant with, that's that's my oldest son. Now 221 00:13:44.039 --> 00:13:47.600 he was almost subductive out of the grocery store, so 222 00:13:47.799 --> 00:13:49.919 you know years later, No, it wasn't even years later. 223 00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:52.440 It would have been it would have been roughly after 224 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:54.440 he was born, probably a year and a half, maybe 225 00:13:55.080 --> 00:13:59.919 two years old. He was sitting in the grocery car 226 00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:04.039 right there was a baby, and Betty had left the 227 00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:05.519 cart there, walked down the eye you know how you 228 00:14:05.559 --> 00:14:07.399 walked down the aisle because you looking for something up 229 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:10.519 on the shelf. And she turned around and this individual 230 00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:12.840 had lifted him up out of the cart, and she 231 00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:15.399 started screaming and everything. He sent him Backdannel Len out 232 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:18.240 of the store. So abductions are really something that's almost 233 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:20.879 apparent's nightmare. That was the situation with this child. 234 00:14:21.799 --> 00:14:24.240 M Yes, you do, you do mention that in the book? 235 00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:28.080 Pardon me? You do rest with that incredible more than 236 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:34.399 coincidence and relation to this case. You say that she 237 00:14:34.639 --> 00:14:39.600 was eventually found and what was the condition that she 238 00:14:39.759 --> 00:14:42.320 was found in? What was some of the circumstances. 239 00:14:44.200 --> 00:14:49.679 She was unfortunately found at a park withinni and arrows. 240 00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:55.360 And when he founder, she had this pookasht necklace wrapped 241 00:14:55.399 --> 00:14:59.240 around her throat and she had been strangled. The body 242 00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:04.039 was partially covered, and it didn't take them long to 243 00:15:04.120 --> 00:15:06.440 ascertain obviously that she had been that she had been 244 00:15:06.519 --> 00:15:12.279 murdered and also and also sodomized as well. She was 245 00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:18.080 only nine years old, so that was very upsetting. Equal 246 00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:24.679 matter immediately was was was spotted on her on her rear, 247 00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:27.720 and so they know that it was a situation where 248 00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:31.799 she had been brutally murdered and also sodomized as well. 249 00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:33.399 Mm hmm. 250 00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:41.440 And this is Cheryl Christy getires correct. Yes, And at 251 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:46.919 the same time, for our listeners, the Hillside Strangler has 252 00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:52.200 terrorized stranglers have terrorized Los Angeles around this same time 253 00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:53.720 or previous. 254 00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:59.240 Correct, that's correct. And and and actually when he ended 255 00:15:59.320 --> 00:16:05.000 up getting in Nevada, when the Sheriff's apartment went out there, 256 00:16:05.240 --> 00:16:07.519 or the lap when they went out there, they thought 257 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:11.799 that possibly at first that he was the Hillside Strangler, 258 00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:15.080 but they did not know that he was the one 259 00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:18.159 associated with these deaths. They were thinking at a whole 260 00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:23.679 different level. So it didn't take them long to figure 261 00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:27.200 out what was going on because he basically told them, 262 00:16:28.279 --> 00:16:30.919 you know, what he had done. So then the gears switched, 263 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:34.679 let's put it that way. So then the investigation opened up, 264 00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:38.600 and too not long the death, but several other deaths, 265 00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:45.799 so they know they had to go to Nevada to 266 00:16:45.919 --> 00:16:47.600 do this. But then I'm sure we're going to get 267 00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:49.720 into what happened all out there because those were part 268 00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:53.879 of the problems that created the dilemma, so to speak, 269 00:16:54.799 --> 00:16:55.799 things that I had found out. 270 00:16:57.039 --> 00:17:00.360 So tell us what happens in the investigation and to 271 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:05.119 find the killer of Cheryl Christi Gataz And then you 272 00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:09.079 talk about July twentieth in Deanna Muskwidge, which was sixteen 273 00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:12.440 years old, is also missing. 274 00:17:14.119 --> 00:17:16.920 You know, here's the problem. The problem is parents try 275 00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:22.319 to tell kids, don't hitchhike, don't get into cars or strangers, 276 00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:28.119 and that's exactly what happens. Lit's back up on Cheryl. 277 00:17:28.279 --> 00:17:32.160 Cheryl was upset because she wanted to go home. They 278 00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:34.400 were at the park, they were swimming, they were all 279 00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:36.160 having a good time, but she wanted to go home 280 00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:39.240 or something was not ready to go home yet, so 281 00:17:39.400 --> 00:17:44.960 she was upset and Michael Mattson saw something that was 282 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:47.559 going on because she was crying and basically lured over 283 00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:49.039 to the car and then told her he could take 284 00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:53.039 her home, so she got into the car. The other 285 00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:55.759 one's the same thing. The only ones who didn't voluntarily 286 00:17:55.839 --> 00:17:57.759 get to the car was the last person, which we'll 287 00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:01.599 get to because she was in the batter And so 288 00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:07.039 luring people in people telling their children don't hitchhike is 289 00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:09.759 always it's always a message that they need to do. 290 00:18:10.359 --> 00:18:13.200 So the investigation to answer your question, you want to 291 00:18:13.240 --> 00:18:18.720 know specifically on the investigation that would have taken place 292 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:21.680 in Nevada. So do you want me to switch gears 293 00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:24.200 and go into Nevada and to the investigation of what happened? 294 00:18:24.920 --> 00:18:25.119 Yes? 295 00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:32.000 Do that? Okay? What happened was that Michael Mattson on 296 00:18:32.200 --> 00:18:35.599 his last situation in California, he actually did not kill 297 00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:39.880 his victim. His victim basically pleaded for her a life, etc. 298 00:18:40.279 --> 00:18:45.240 And for some reason he didn't kill her. Now, when 299 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:47.640 he was interviewed, he said the only reason why he 300 00:18:47.799 --> 00:18:50.160 didn't kill her was because she was pleading for her life, 301 00:18:50.200 --> 00:18:52.240 but that he also couldn't find a rock big enough 302 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:55.720 to bash her head in right, so he ended up 303 00:18:55.799 --> 00:19:01.319 taking her and dropping her back off. So he realized afterwards, 304 00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:06.920 now he has left a victim alive that could describe 305 00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:10.519 him in his vehicle, etc. So he takes off and 306 00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:16.160 goes to Nevada. So he gets to Nevada, but he 307 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:18.880 doesn't really have that much money. He gets on the 308 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:22.160 spur of the moment, decided he better leave, so he 309 00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:26.480 drives to North Las Vegas, where he's just about running 310 00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:28.759 out of gas. So he goes to the local junior 311 00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:32.000 college there and by that time it's at night. So 312 00:19:32.039 --> 00:19:36.759 it's what happened was he spotted a female student going 313 00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:42.279 to her car and he basically a gunpoint forced her 314 00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:45.519 into the car because he wanted some money the gas. 315 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:49.480 What she didn't know is that the gun was actually 316 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:51.680 a BB gun. It wasn't a real gun. It was 317 00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:54.680 a BB gun. But she don't know that it's at night, 318 00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:56.759 it's a gun. Get in the car and that's what 319 00:19:56.880 --> 00:20:03.799 she jared, so force us into the car. He knows 320 00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:05.119 that he doesn't have a gat. He takes us to 321 00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:10.599 the secluded area and uh basically rapes her, but he 322 00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:15.160 doesn't have gas, so they go back to the gas station. 323 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:18.119 They go back to a gas station, and at the 324 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:23.440 gas station, she figures out that she's got to get away. 325 00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:27.680 This is her opportunity, and when he's out there, out 326 00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:29.599 of the out of the car, she basically jumps out 327 00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:34.160 and and runs into the station and tells the attendant 328 00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:36.880 what's going on. So of course they call the police. 329 00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:43.119 Pat Dingle was a detective at the North Las Vegas 330 00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:46.880 Police Department, so he gets to call at night and 331 00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:50.359 he goes up there and he starts looking around, and 332 00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:54.319 of course he finds you know, the you know the car, 333 00:20:55.759 --> 00:20:59.640 and he starts investigating the car, but he's still not 334 00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:02.920 sure of what's going on. To make a long story short, 335 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:06.559 it's at night. He goes back, but then the victim 336 00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:09.119 ends up going to the hospital and they end up calling, 337 00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:11.119 and so he's able to interview, et cetera, et cetera, 338 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:13.279 et cetera. So they put the word out on the 339 00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:17.960 vehicle licens plate. The vehicle license plate is to California 340 00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:21.519 and comes back under Michael b Massive, but he's not 341 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:24.440 equating that with anything going on in California. Of course, 342 00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:28.680 he's just equating it to this particular situation with this 343 00:21:28.839 --> 00:21:32.880 victim in North Las Vegas. So he puts out on 344 00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:34.880 the teletype because it's too late at that point to 345 00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:38.720 call California. So he puts out on the teletype description 346 00:21:38.839 --> 00:21:41.519 of what happened, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. He 347 00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:46.480 ends up getting a call from La County about this 348 00:21:46.599 --> 00:21:51.799 particular situation, and the investigators end up going out because 349 00:21:51.799 --> 00:21:55.480 again they're thinking he's the Hillside Triangle situation, right. But 350 00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:59.519 during this time, Pat Dingle's fingers out, Wait a minute, 351 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:04.079 nothing's going on because Pat felt that this particular individual, 352 00:22:05.319 --> 00:22:07.480 you know, there's something going on with now, he's not 353 00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:09.880 in custody. It's just I'm sorry, I should back up. 354 00:22:10.119 --> 00:22:13.079 He's not in custody yet, all right. So so even 355 00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:15.880 though the word was put out on the teletype and 356 00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:18.960 they got a call about it, they weren't going out 357 00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:23.680 there yet because Madson hadn't been captured. So Madson ends 358 00:22:23.799 --> 00:22:27.839 up going up to driving to because he had grandparents 359 00:22:27.880 --> 00:22:31.240 that lived in Eli. I guess that's type and EOI 360 00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:36.440 or Nevada. So the sheriff up there, Sheriff Robinson knew 361 00:22:36.519 --> 00:22:40.640 about a family that was in that particular area, because again, 362 00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:42.720 when you send out a teletype, it goes out all 363 00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:46.079 across the country, as you can imagine. So they picked 364 00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:51.839 up on it and he goes to the grandparents' house. 365 00:22:53.319 --> 00:22:55.039 It just happened to, you know, knock on the door, 366 00:22:55.079 --> 00:22:58.119 say listen, we'll looking for Michael D. Madson. Would you 367 00:22:58.279 --> 00:23:01.759 happen to know him? Mean, while Matson had driven up there, 368 00:23:02.599 --> 00:23:04.759 and again it was still a gas issue. So he 369 00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:07.839 ends up going to his grandparents' house walking, you know, 370 00:23:08.039 --> 00:23:12.519 gets to his grandparents house. So when sure Robinson got there, 371 00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:16.640 the grandparents came to the door and they said, you 372 00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:18.640 know Michael D. Manson And of course they looked at 373 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:20.640 each other. Well yeah, that's how grand said. Well do 374 00:23:20.680 --> 00:23:23.000 you know where he is? Well, yeah, he's inside sleeping. 375 00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:25.279 So of course Robinson was shot because he got lucky 376 00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:28.079 at that point. He had to know from that perspective 377 00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:31.240 it's not always that easy, trust me when I tell you, 378 00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:34.000 But you know what's he done now? I mean, so 379 00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:38.359 the grandparents even knew that he had a bad background, 380 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:40.880 but that's still their grandson. They're not going to turn 381 00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:42.920 them away, and they don't know what he's done most recently. 382 00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:46.839 They only know what happened in Oregon. So Mason comes 383 00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:50.759 to the door and Robinson takes him into custody, takes 384 00:23:50.839 --> 00:23:54.480 him back to the station. Pat Dingle and his partner reed. 385 00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:57.640 They find out because Robinson calls and says, hey, I 386 00:23:57.720 --> 00:24:00.160 got your guy in custody. Basically, so they drive up 387 00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:06.519 there and Pat told me, as soon as he looked 388 00:24:06.519 --> 00:24:11.079 at this individual, in his mind, this guy was pure evil. 389 00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:15.079 And again he did not fully know everything that Mason 390 00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:17.359 had done. He only knew about what happened with this 391 00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:21.920 victim in North Las Vegas. Right on the ride back, 392 00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:28.480 he was in the back with Madson, and Pat told 393 00:24:28.519 --> 00:24:33.160 me this, and it just, you know, from my perspective, 394 00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:36.359 being with my background and even being a police officer 395 00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:40.039 that you know, I was a reserved police officer as 396 00:24:40.039 --> 00:24:43.720 well with Elie County Sheriff's Department, was it was just wrong. 397 00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:46.079 He confided it in me that he in fact had 398 00:24:46.119 --> 00:24:49.839 taken his gun and put it in Matson's mouth and 399 00:24:50.440 --> 00:24:53.839 you know, threatened him, et cetera. And that to me 400 00:24:54.119 --> 00:24:57.079 was wrong. But again, nobody knew this at that time. 401 00:24:57.240 --> 00:25:01.559