1 00:00:19,879 --> 00:00:22,399 Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of the Federalist 2 00:00:22,519 --> 00:00:25,960 Radio Hour, and I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at 3 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:30,760 the Federalist and your experience shirpa on today's quest for knowledge. 4 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:33,880 As always, you can email the show at radio at 5 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:38,960 the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at FDR LST, 6 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:42,679 make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and 7 00:00:42,759 --> 00:00:45,560 of course the premium version of our website as well. 8 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,280 Our guest today is Open the Book CEO. John Hart, 9 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,920 the Government Spending Tracker, has been monitoring the shutdown mess, 10 00:00:54,439 --> 00:00:58,520 the healthcare spending bill Dems are dying on, and the 11 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:03,759 worst waste is safety net spending. It's a lot to unpack. John, 12 00:01:03,799 --> 00:01:05,599 thank you so much for joining us in this edition 13 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:06,760 of the Federalist Radio Hour. 14 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 2: You bet Matt's it. It's a pleasure to be on. 15 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:13,079 Speaker 1: This is directly from the good folks to open the books. 16 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,400 Picture this. You walk into a bank and ask for 17 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,319 thirty seven point five trillion dollars and they hand it over, 18 00:01:20,359 --> 00:01:24,079 no questions asked. You come back again and again for more, 19 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:28,599 and no one ever asks for receipts. Sounds absurd, yet 20 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:32,680 that's exactly how Washington operates. Every year, the federal government 21 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:38,079 burns through trillions and taxpayer dollars with virtually zero accountability, 22 00:01:38,799 --> 00:01:44,599 from bird watching programs to DEI themed musicals overseas. We 23 00:01:44,799 --> 00:01:49,120 kid you not. Now that the government's fiscal year has 24 00:01:49,359 --> 00:01:52,519 ended and we are into our sixteenth day of the 25 00:01:52,519 --> 00:01:55,799 government shut down. As we record this, Open the Books 26 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,359 dot Com, the nation's largest database of federal spending, is 27 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:03,359 calling for real transparency. And what have you heard so 28 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:08,120 far on that front? John Folks, responsible for that transparency? 29 00:02:08,439 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, we're a fan of transparency that you know. 30 00:02:11,159 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 3: The metaphor I use is that, you know, transparency cuts 31 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:19,159 through government like water cuts through stone. So that flow 32 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,560 can seem unremarkable and just a steady stream, but it 33 00:02:22,599 --> 00:02:26,360 has tremendous power to it. And when water finds a crack, 34 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,800 it can wipe away mighty walls of opposition. So what 35 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,360 we do at Open the Books is identify the crack. 36 00:02:32,479 --> 00:02:35,520 Sometimes we create them, but they usually create themselves. There 37 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,560 are cracks in the system, and that flow of information 38 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,199 and the will of we the people moving through our 39 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,639 system of government is a very very powerful tool of reform. 40 00:02:45,759 --> 00:02:48,719 So I'm I'm quite I tend to be a glass 41 00:02:48,719 --> 00:02:51,400 half hole person. I believe that our system is the 42 00:02:51,439 --> 00:02:55,800 most magnificent ever created in political systems. 43 00:02:55,879 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 2: It's far from perfect, but. 44 00:02:58,879 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 3: Transparency is a very, very powerful and effective tool. And 45 00:03:02,439 --> 00:03:03,960 I want to give a shout out to to one 46 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,759 of your colleagues at the Federal of Sean Davis, who 47 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:08,800 was a part of our team in Coburn's office, who 48 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,439 knows this history quite well and intimately. And so when 49 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:15,719 we worked for I was with Coburn in the House 50 00:03:15,759 --> 00:03:19,599 and then the Senate. We worked with an ambitious young 51 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,560 senator from Illinois when he came in named Barack Obama, 52 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,680 and we were trying to Barack Obama clearly was you know, 53 00:03:27,759 --> 00:03:30,319 after his convention speech he wanted to run for president, 54 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:32,400 and we thought, well, what is the most conservative thing 55 00:03:32,479 --> 00:03:34,159 we can get Barack Obama to agree to. 56 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,719 Speaker 2: How can we leverage his ambition to advance. 57 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 3: The cause of freedom, And he of course wanted to 58 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:44,560 leverage you know, Coburn's credibility with conservatives to be bipartisan, 59 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,039 and we tried on some healthcare issues, which we can 60 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,639 get back into. What Obama agreed to is, you know, 61 00:03:51,719 --> 00:03:54,520 transparency is that is that there is no, there is 62 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:58,120 no argument against taxpayers having the right to see what 63 00:03:58,199 --> 00:04:01,400 government is doing with their money. And there are thoughtful 64 00:04:01,439 --> 00:04:04,879 progressives who think if only taxpayers understood how little we 65 00:04:04,919 --> 00:04:08,919 spend in particular areas, whether it's foreign aid or other 66 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,879 you know, other support programs, then they'll surely be against 67 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,920 the you know, the dismantling of those programs. And our 68 00:04:16,959 --> 00:04:20,079 wager is, well, the more people understand I've ever been spending, 69 00:04:20,639 --> 00:04:22,639 usually the less they want of it, the more they 70 00:04:22,639 --> 00:04:25,680 want to control their own destiny. And you know, we 71 00:04:25,759 --> 00:04:28,959 believe that every every dollar saved in Washington is a 72 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,519 dream realized somewhere else in America. And we're we're a 73 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:36,399 first principles organization. You know, transparency was written into the Constitution. 74 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,240 It precedes the Bill of Rights and the and the 75 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,839 free speech itself, and so transparency is like the oxygen 76 00:04:42,879 --> 00:04:45,839 in the public square. We can't speak and debate if 77 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,959 we can't breathe. So that's why, that's why transparency is 78 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,399 so vital. And our entire system of government is based 79 00:04:52,439 --> 00:04:55,000 on a very deep understanding of the. 80 00:04:54,959 --> 00:04:57,079 Speaker 2: Relationship between the individual and the state. 81 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,399 Speaker 3: You know, Hence, you know, I'm a fan of what 82 00:04:59,439 --> 00:05:02,279 I call twenty first century federalism of how do we 83 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:06,839 take these timeless principles and reapply them to today's. 84 00:05:06,639 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 2: Environment in a lot of technology. 85 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 3: So we believe in real time transparency that if the 86 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,879 founders you know, had access to today's technology, they wouldn't be 87 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,959 satisfied with you know, you know, thirty sixty ninety day delays. 88 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,399 They would expect that money to be visible immediately. Just 89 00:05:22,399 --> 00:05:24,040 just as you and I can go and log onto 90 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:26,839 our own personal checking account, we ought to be able 91 00:05:26,879 --> 00:05:28,920 to access America's checkbook and see what. 92 00:05:28,879 --> 00:05:30,519 Speaker 2: Government is doing with our money. 93 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:33,439 Speaker 3: What right do they have to not let us see 94 00:05:33,879 --> 00:05:35,759 transactions being done in our name? 95 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 1: Indeed, can you imagine Jefferson on TikTok. 96 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 2: Oh? He would be he would be quite good. 97 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 3: I mean, the founders were brilliant communicator obviously, you know, 98 00:05:47,079 --> 00:05:48,600 a very different, different. 99 00:05:48,319 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 2: Mode of communicating them. 100 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:52,959 Speaker 3: But they they also had the capacity of crystallizing their 101 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,319 views in Twitter one hundred and forty characters or to 102 00:05:56,439 --> 00:05:58,240 eighty whatever whatever the limit is now. 103 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:02,639 Speaker 1: But I can definitely see Andrew Jackson. 104 00:06:03,879 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 2: He would cleally quite adapted. 105 00:06:05,519 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: Excellent, Yeah, thank you, I think he would. Now let 106 00:06:08,319 --> 00:06:13,000 me ask you this, you worked with then Senator Barack 107 00:06:13,079 --> 00:06:17,319 Obama uh in in Cobran's office, and he was all 108 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,279 excited about transparency and government, at least what it could 109 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:22,959 do for him politically. How did he fare as a 110 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:27,120 president when it became time to lead that transparency? 111 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean he you know, he did a 112 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,000 decent job overseeing USA spending. I mean that that was 113 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,199 that that's it was and isn't a critically important website. 114 00:06:36,959 --> 00:06:37,079 Speaker 2: Uh. 115 00:06:37,439 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 3: In fact, when you when you look at the debate 116 00:06:40,399 --> 00:06:42,560 we've had over the past year, you. 117 00:06:42,519 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 2: Know, do DOGE has been a mixed bag. 118 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 3: They you know, I would call it some minor successes, 119 00:06:48,199 --> 00:06:49,519 but lots of unfinished business. 120 00:06:49,759 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, but their success was a large. 121 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 3: Part enabled by an army and ecosystem of organizations and 122 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:01,160 individuals who are all the progeny of USA spending. 123 00:07:01,199 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 2: In other words, we intentionally put all. 124 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:06,959 Speaker 3: Federal spending online, not not to pat ourselves on the 125 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,120 back and say look what we did, but but to 126 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,920 create the ecosystem, to create permanent pressure so that when 127 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,199 Cobra was gone, there would be people who were more 128 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:17,800 adept at transparency than we were. 129 00:07:17,839 --> 00:07:18,879 Speaker 2: And that's and that happened. 130 00:07:18,959 --> 00:07:21,639 Speaker 3: They Cobram believed there were people who would use the 131 00:07:21,759 --> 00:07:23,759 data in ways that he couldn't think of and we 132 00:07:23,759 --> 00:07:27,399 couldn't imagine, and that has come to be Mike Binns 133 00:07:27,439 --> 00:07:29,600 when he was on Joe Rogan, he was talking about 134 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,879 you know, USAID corruption and said, look, without what makes 135 00:07:33,959 --> 00:07:37,079 us different from communists China is a site called USA spending. 136 00:07:37,959 --> 00:07:39,079 Speaker 2: We can go to look at it. 137 00:07:39,639 --> 00:07:42,439 Speaker 3: So I give I give Obama. Obama deserves credit for 138 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,839 doing that. He in good faith. He was true to 139 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,000 our first principles to say, look, let's let's open the 140 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,759 books together and find out whose side is right and 141 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,240 then and then let's litigate that and debate it. You 142 00:07:54,279 --> 00:07:57,240 can't you can't have accountability without visibility. So I give 143 00:07:57,319 --> 00:08:00,800 him a major, you know, hat tip for that. But 144 00:08:00,879 --> 00:08:03,839 obviously with within the I R S there was the 145 00:08:03,839 --> 00:08:07,720 weaponization of of the tax code against tea party groups 146 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:12,279 and and that that has you know, was extremely anti 147 00:08:12,319 --> 00:08:16,560 democratic to say the least in the authoritarian and you know, 148 00:08:16,639 --> 00:08:19,800 there there's there's a you know, there's an authoritarian double standard. 149 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:21,639 I think for all the you know, the progressives that 150 00:08:21,639 --> 00:08:26,319 that howl and scream about Trump's authoritarian tendencies, is anything 151 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,439 that they don't like they they did in a more 152 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,919 egregious form in almost sever respect. And so I'm I'm 153 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,639 very concerned about what I would call an authoritarian arms race, 154 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,919 where one side tries to one up the other and 155 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:42,279 weaponizes the tools of the federal government. So I think 156 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:44,919 I think in the in the Lord of the Ring story, 157 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:46,639 we all know what we all know, we all know 158 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:48,360 what Palante is right. 159 00:08:48,279 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 2: The big, big company. But what I think the public 160 00:08:51,519 --> 00:08:53,159 really wants is hobbits. 161 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,559 Speaker 3: You know, they want the Fellowship to grab the ring, 162 00:08:57,519 --> 00:09:00,200 throw it in the ring of fire and and and 163 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,159 burn it. That's really what what politics is about, is 164 00:09:04,879 --> 00:09:09,200 controlling and limiting, corrupting centralized power. 165 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:10,159 Speaker 2: You know. 166 00:09:10,279 --> 00:09:14,639 Speaker 3: Thomas Jefferson, going back to our TikTok friend, he said, 167 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,320 you know, the natural order of things is for liberty 168 00:09:17,399 --> 00:09:20,960 to yield and government to gain ground. Right, And that's 169 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,960 an observation based not just on his life, but you know, 170 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,200 twenty six twenty three hundred years of political history at 171 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,759 the time of that writing. So that's that's what we're about, 172 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:32,759 is we're trying to take the ring of power and 173 00:09:32,759 --> 00:09:34,360 throw it into the fire and melt it down and 174 00:09:34,399 --> 00:09:36,679 give it back to we the people, and that is 175 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:37,840 what experience is about. 176 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:42,159 Speaker 1: Yeah. No, absolutely, and that's why what you are doing 177 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:46,759 is so critical to point these things out. You know, 178 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:52,200 I wrote a piece today at the Federalist about this battle, 179 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:58,480 this present shut down, you know show that is going on. Yeah, 180 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:02,279 that's really what it is. It's political theater. But it 181 00:10:02,399 --> 00:10:06,639 exposes something that I think the late great Milton Friedman 182 00:10:06,759 --> 00:10:11,159 warned us about, interestingly enough, in nineteen eighty four when 183 00:10:11,279 --> 00:10:16,080 his Tyrants book came out, that nothing is so permanent 184 00:10:16,519 --> 00:10:21,799 as a temporary government program. And here we are today. 185 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,679 This is the political hill that the Democrats are dying on. 186 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:31,759 They passed trillions of dollars in stimulus, so called stimulus 187 00:10:31,799 --> 00:10:36,759 spending during the pandemic, and they use the notion of 188 00:10:36,799 --> 00:10:40,639 a national health emergency, which there was for a time. 189 00:10:41,399 --> 00:10:46,200 There's still They still want the health insurance expansions, the 190 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:52,279 subsidy expansions in Obamacare, costing hundreds of billions of dollars, 191 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,720 to go on, long after what that was supposed to 192 00:10:55,759 --> 00:11:01,960 be intended for an emergency of an emergency has long passed. 193 00:11:02,159 --> 00:11:06,279 How do they make this argument today and how do 194 00:11:06,399 --> 00:11:10,639 they present it as you know, we're not shutting down 195 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:15,240 the government simply because we don't want this credit, these 196 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,679 credits to end, right right. 197 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 3: Well, you mentioned the word theater. I want to dwell 198 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:21,559 I answer the question by dwellion on that. 199 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 2: Concept for a minute. 200 00:11:22,879 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 3: So I think one of the best examples that describe 201 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,279 the shutdown dynamic is the film Blazing Saddles. 202 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 2: I don't. 203 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: It multiple times, we can't. 204 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 3: We can't even begin to quote that in anything discussion. 205 00:11:37,039 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: Because we would both be we would be canceled, we. 206 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 3: Would be canceled a meeting. Yes, but you know, if 207 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:44,399 only we could make films like that today, I think 208 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:46,919 it would make a Which is the film, I would 209 00:11:46,919 --> 00:11:51,360 just say it's one of the most Syrian indictments of racism. 210 00:11:50,919 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: Ever produced, by the way, no doubt. 211 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 3: But in the in the conclusion, the protagonist famously he 212 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,519 takes himself stage and begs and begs everyone not to shoot. 213 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,399 Speaker 2: So shutdowns in many ways, it's kind of a repeat 214 00:12:07,399 --> 00:12:07,639 of that. 215 00:12:07,919 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 3: You take yourself hostage and then beg the other side 216 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,799 to not shoot, and Republicans. 217 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:15,159 Speaker 2: Have made that. So that's what Democrats are doing now, 218 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:15,759 is they've. 219 00:12:15,519 --> 00:12:19,639 Speaker 3: Taken themselves hostage. They're begging the president to not shoot. Now, 220 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,080 Republicans have made that same mistake in all fairness back 221 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,240 in twenty in twenty thirteen, I'm sure you remember Ted 222 00:12:25,279 --> 00:12:29,759 Ted Cruz, you know, orchestrated the famous Obamacare shutdown where 223 00:12:29,919 --> 00:12:34,759 he said, unless Barack Obama defunds Obamacare, we're going to 224 00:12:34,799 --> 00:12:38,080 keep the government shut down. And there was a titanic 225 00:12:38,159 --> 00:12:41,759 battle on the right about that tactic, because you had 226 00:12:42,039 --> 00:12:44,480 Cruise on one side and some other activists and then 227 00:12:44,519 --> 00:12:47,559 Coburn and other activists on the other side say no, 228 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:49,840 if we want to win the long term battle on 229 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:51,799 healthcare reform, we need. 230 00:12:51,639 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 2: To put forward a better alternative. 231 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 3: We need to have a plan, and we want to 232 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,240 we want to choose the hill you die on, right, 233 00:12:58,279 --> 00:13:00,600 But politics, politicians find. 234 00:13:00,399 --> 00:13:04,879 Speaker 2: Themselves by the hills they die on, as we know. 235 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:05,200 We know. 236 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 3: Well, so that didn't it wasn't catastrophic for Republicans. I 237 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,000 think it you know, it didn't have a big near 238 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:16,600 term uh you know, harm, But I think longer term, 239 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:19,399 what it did is it made it difficult for Republicans 240 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:24,399 to really coalesce around what their alternative was. Excuse me, 241 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:28,879 so we we had an alternative, but that shutdown discussion 242 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,039 made it difficult to call us around it. 243 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 2: And then so what's happening now with the Democrats. 244 00:13:36,799 --> 00:13:39,399 Speaker 3: Is you have you have a party that is determined 245 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:44,000 to quote fight to make it, to make it clear 246 00:13:44,039 --> 00:13:47,000 that they're going to just oppose Trump at any any 247 00:13:47,039 --> 00:13:51,679 cost imaginable, because their base is demanding a fight. So 248 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:53,919 it's the it's a TDS problem, it's a you know, 249 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:55,200 Trump derangement syndrome. 250 00:13:55,399 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: That's their platform, their platform. 251 00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:59,919 Speaker 2: And and if you it's it's you know, I encourage. 252 00:13:59,639 --> 00:14:03,519 Speaker 3: Anyone listeners to podcasts like yours and follows, open the books, 253 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:08,080 spend time really understanding what the psychology of Democrats right now. 254 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,240 So asra Client had John Fabrea on you know the 255 00:14:11,279 --> 00:14:15,399 Obama the Obama speech writer and the discussion, you know, 256 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,000 for two people who are who are who are quite 257 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,480 intelligent and thoughtful, it was a retread of what we've 258 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:23,679 seen for the past hundred years from the from the 259 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:24,480 progressive left. 260 00:14:24,519 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 2: It was pure it's pure demagoguery. Democrats. 261 00:14:28,039 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 3: Their psychology is they are betting, they're going they're going 262 00:14:31,399 --> 00:14:34,159 to quote make the shutdown about healthcare. 263 00:14:35,279 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 2: Now. 264 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 3: The problem is when you when you start a shooting war, 265 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,039 which is what they've done, with the shutdown, they don't 266 00:14:41,039 --> 00:14:43,600 get to control what it is quote unquote about. It 267 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,399 becomes about a lot of things. It becomes about your 268 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,480 your friend who's a federal employee who isn't getting their paycheck. 269 00:14:50,519 --> 00:14:53,360 It becomes about you know, I'm getting ready to fly 270 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:55,600 in a few days and my famili's flying different places. 271 00:14:55,639 --> 00:15:00,399 So I'm nervous because air traffic controllers they're still but 272 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:01,159 they're not being. 273 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,679 Speaker 1: Paid, so they're calling in sick and in sick right. 274 00:15:04,879 --> 00:15:08,279 Speaker 3: So there's anxiety that is the consequence of a shutdown. 275 00:15:15,799 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 4: Should property taxes just come to an end? 276 00:15:18,519 --> 00:15:21,759 Speaker 5: The Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day, 277 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,840 Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and the economy 278 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:26,120 and how it affects your wallet. 279 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,399 Speaker 4: Truly, owning your own home shouldn't be a piggybank for 280 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,240 government to extract revenue. Property taxes will forever make you 281 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,039 not an owner, just nothing more than a surf on 282 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,559 the lord's manner. Whether it's happening in DC or down 283 00:15:38,559 --> 00:15:40,320 on Wall Street, it's affecting you financially. 284 00:15:40,399 --> 00:15:40,919 Speaker 2: Be informed. 285 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 5: Check out the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris 286 00:15:43,159 --> 00:15:46,080 Markowski on Apples, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. 287 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 3: And again I would say I think generally speaking, shutdowns 288 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,720 or not, it's a mistake when people slip into the 289 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,200 tribalism of the moment, they go, we're gonna we're going 290 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:03,639 to own the Democrats because of the shutdown. Well, it's 291 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,279 it tends to hurt both parties. It's an indictment of 292 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,480 our system. When you have a government shutdown, it shows 293 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:11,720 that things are not working and blame. 294 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 2: You know, everyone looks bad in a shutdown. 295 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 3: So so the quote winner is the one that looks 296 00:16:17,159 --> 00:16:20,159 less bad. And so if that's the it's if that's 297 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,399 the measure of success, and that's the reality of how 298 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,600 shutdowns are judged by the electorate. I do think Democrats 299 00:16:26,639 --> 00:16:29,240 are not going to quote win the shutdown fight. And 300 00:16:29,279 --> 00:16:32,600 what we've seen is that again, events determine what it's about. 301 00:16:32,799 --> 00:16:38,360 We've in Thune, to his credit, has forced nine votes 302 00:16:38,519 --> 00:16:39,600 to keep the government open. 303 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 2: So that's a fact. That's a fact. Pattern. 304 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 3: So Democrats really are the ones holding themselves hostage. They're 305 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:50,559 the ones with the loaded gun. It's not Republicans. And uh, 306 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:52,919 and so the public is watching this this you know, 307 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:57,240 this faux drama unfold and they're gonna they're going to 308 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,519 increasingly blame Democrats. And that's what the polling is showing 309 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,039 is there's been a shift. You know, a week or 310 00:17:04,079 --> 00:17:07,720 two ago, Democrats had an eleven point edge about who 311 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:08,240 do you blame? 312 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 2: That lead has shrunk to six. 313 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:13,559 Speaker 3: And I think as more and more things happen, you know, 314 00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:16,160 there's a lot of unpredictable unpredictability because we don't know 315 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:17,880 what's going to happen, you know, in the real world 316 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,200 with the economy. You know, it's not a winning strategy 317 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,759 for Democrats, but more fundamentally, it's they're doubling down on 318 00:17:25,759 --> 00:17:29,240 on what I would just describe as an intellectually vacant 319 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,680 argument and really a smug argument that we're the party 320 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,079 that cares, we care because we're we're for bigger subsidies. 321 00:17:37,759 --> 00:17:40,720 And I've always described that as counterfeit compassion. You know, 322 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,319 the best way to make something expensive is for government 323 00:17:44,319 --> 00:17:48,039 to make it affordable, and we see that repeatedly, whether 324 00:17:48,079 --> 00:17:51,400 it's a education or healthcare, and particularly with Obamacare. Is 325 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,720 we you know, we diagnose this back in twenty two 326 00:17:54,799 --> 00:17:58,720 thousand and six, we were putting forward our alternative when 327 00:17:58,759 --> 00:18:00,960 it seemed inevitable that Hillary Clinton. 328 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:01,559 Speaker 2: Would be the nominee. 329 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 3: We were already trying to encourage conservatives to get their 330 00:18:05,279 --> 00:18:08,160 head wrapped around what would a free market truly look 331 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,279 like in healthcare? And then, of course, you know, Obama 332 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:13,400 got the nomination, and we know what happened, and we 333 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:18,200 never coalesced around that alternative. And I think to their 334 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:22,599 credit House House Republicans in particular, you know, Chip Roy 335 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:27,519 and others really did a great job of insisting that 336 00:18:27,599 --> 00:18:31,920 we not continue the failed policies of the past. And 337 00:18:32,519 --> 00:18:37,039 as you appropriately noted, this is a the particular issue 338 00:18:37,039 --> 00:18:39,680 that they, the Democrats, want this to be about. It 339 00:18:39,759 --> 00:18:44,319 was a temporary subsidy and surge and spending that they 340 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:48,119 designed to be temporary. So we're simply asking them to 341 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:55,920 agree with themselves on the right standoff in the blazing 342 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,359 saddles hostage standoff. Right, why are they why are they 343 00:18:59,359 --> 00:18:59,920 debating them. 344 00:19:00,079 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 2: Else on this? 345 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:01,839 Speaker 3: Now? 346 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 1: It seems that is exactly what is happening with the 347 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:10,200 the Democrat Party that is controlled now more and more 348 00:19:10,279 --> 00:19:14,960 by the radical left. But both sides have, as you've noted, 349 00:19:15,039 --> 00:19:18,319 have had problems with the shutdown. I think what we've learned, 350 00:19:18,599 --> 00:19:22,359 particularly over the last quarter century is that shutdowns are 351 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:26,279 like leisure suits. Nobody looks good in them. That's just 352 00:19:26,559 --> 00:19:29,960 I mean, that's really what it boils down to. Because 353 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:34,720 people can't even remember the last shutdown. They just constantly 354 00:19:34,759 --> 00:19:38,759 remember how their government is failing them. So yes, let's 355 00:19:38,759 --> 00:19:41,480 get into that. Actually, our guest today is opened the 356 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:45,440 book CEO John Hart, the Government Spending Tracker, has been 357 00:19:45,519 --> 00:19:49,799 monitoring the shutdown messes. We've talked about healthcare spending bill 358 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,519 Dems are dying on, and the worst waste in safety 359 00:19:53,559 --> 00:19:56,599 net spending. John, I'm thinking about how this fiscal year 360 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:01,559 just ended a couple few weeks ago. That was a 361 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:06,119 disaster for the thirty seven point five trillion dollar debt, 362 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,680 and it doesn't look promising moving ahead. What have you 363 00:20:09,799 --> 00:20:15,279 found in tracking some of the more egregious spending over 364 00:20:15,319 --> 00:20:16,960 the last year and what we could be on the 365 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:18,359 hook for coming up? 366 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and firstly, we're we're on the hook for 367 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:21,319 a lot. 368 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 3: I think I think there's the way I always describe 369 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,960 the federal government is there's it's a mix of just 370 00:20:28,039 --> 00:20:32,039 systemic gross spending dysfunctional, but then there's a lot of 371 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:35,599 just outrageous examples of things like twenty thousand dollars on 372 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:40,519 drag brunches in Ecuador, you know, three million dollars in 373 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:45,680 ih to inject beagles with cocaine. You know, here's a 374 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,519 good one three hundred and twelve million for SBA loans 375 00:20:48,559 --> 00:20:52,279 for businesses owned by kids eleven years old and younger. 376 00:20:52,599 --> 00:20:56,319 Speaker 1: So really lemonade exactly, that's a very lucrative. 377 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, my kids are now well too. Unfortunately they're older 378 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:00,240 than a lot, and. 379 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 2: So I can't do that. 380 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,599 Speaker 3: But so and I think, I think what we do 381 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,119 and open the books, and what we really perfected in 382 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:11,119 the in the Coburn years is is finding these specific 383 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,759 examples that illustrate the systemic problem. 384 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,599 Speaker 2: And we looked at the Bridge to Nowhere back in the. 385 00:21:16,519 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 3: Earmark battle, because it was a two hundred and twenty 386 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:23,480 you know, million dollar bridge that was going to connect 387 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:27,480 an island with sixty people to mainland Alaska, and we 388 00:21:27,599 --> 00:21:30,200 forced an amendment to shift that funding to repair a 389 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,920 bridge that was damaged by Hurricane Katrina. And the Senate 390 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:38,039 voted against that shift of funding eighty two to fifteen. 391 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,119 So we lost that by sixty seven votes in the Senate, 392 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,920 but we want it overwhelmingly with public, and those those 393 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,920 are the smart fights that we always are trying to pick, 394 00:21:49,039 --> 00:21:52,720 is to say, why are we spending you know, ten 395 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:58,559 billion dollars on a thousand different medicare prescription d but 396 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:03,680 medicare that's the part prescription drug providers. Uh, when we 397 00:22:03,799 --> 00:22:06,079 have a you know, a thirty seven trillion dollar debt, 398 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,160 we're spending more on interest payments on the national debt 399 00:22:09,519 --> 00:22:10,920 than we are a national defense. 400 00:22:11,039 --> 00:22:12,319 Speaker 2: Those are not sustainable. 401 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 3: And I think what I think, I think Republicans in 402 00:22:15,759 --> 00:22:19,359 particularly have an opportunity to make to make the shut 403 00:22:19,599 --> 00:22:22,119 we talked about the word about you know, Democrats think 404 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,319 they can make it about healthcare, Well, they don't get 405 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:27,079 to they don't get to decide that. 406 00:22:27,519 --> 00:22:30,079 Speaker 2: Republicans and the public have a voice. And I think 407 00:22:30,079 --> 00:22:32,000 we ought to make it about the. 408 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 3: Overall size of the scope of government, the relationship between 409 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:39,119 the government and the individual, and in particular, are unsustainable 410 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:40,079 safety net spending. 411 00:22:40,799 --> 00:22:42,759 Speaker 2: So so an analogy I used. 412 00:22:42,559 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 3: Too is when you if whenever you fly and you 413 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,119 you look down and you see the Mississippi River, you know, 414 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,640 from the airplane it's you can tell it's enormous even 415 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,440 from that high but then all the little all the 416 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:55,279 little tiny things. 417 00:22:55,319 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 2: We spend a lot of our time focusing on whether 418 00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:58,920 it's DEI, whether it's you know. 419 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 3: These examples that I listed, their tiny little examples. So 420 00:23:03,759 --> 00:23:07,079 the money, again, it's all connected, it's all related. And 421 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,400 DEI has a disproportionate. 422 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 2: Cultural influence I think is really important. 423 00:23:11,599 --> 00:23:14,279 Speaker 3: But we really need to be focusing on how do 424 00:23:14,319 --> 00:23:19,079 we get our head wrapped around our overall unsustainable federal government. 425 00:23:19,839 --> 00:23:24,119 And it's a question of again, we can design programs 426 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,720 and design a safety net where preferably at the state level, 427 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,640 there are ways that government can meet me needs of 428 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:36,839 people who were truly unable to help themselves. There's overwhelming 429 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,480 public support for that. But we can design those programs 430 00:23:39,559 --> 00:23:43,480 without destroying ourselves economically in the process. And I think 431 00:23:43,519 --> 00:23:46,039 the more Republicans lean into that, the better off they're 432 00:23:46,079 --> 00:23:48,279 going to be, because you don't want to be half 433 00:23:48,319 --> 00:23:51,839 pregnant on this issue of reforming the safety net. And 434 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,640 they've done a good job on Medicaid, but they need 435 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,880 to broaden the aperture. And so the shutdown again is 436 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:02,200 an opportunity to make a quote unquote about the bigger challenge. 437 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,680 And you mentioned Milton Friedman too. A big priority to 438 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,559 in our current moment is this debate about what is 439 00:24:09,559 --> 00:24:12,440 the administrative state? Why do we have all of these 440 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:17,400 federal agencies, and why is the president required to keep 441 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,400 people in place that don't represent the agenda that the 442 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:24,880 American people voted for. And this is really one hundred 443 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,319 I described the administrative state as like one hundred year 444 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:33,519 constitutional crisis where the progressive left very intentionally created this 445 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,400 bureau of experts to take power out of the political 446 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,519 process and to make these programs permanent. As Friedman you 447 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,160 quoted Freedman, all of these temporary programs then become permanent. 448 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,519 So we did some reporting earlier this year and we 449 00:24:48,759 --> 00:24:51,960 looked at four hundred and forty one agencies in the 450 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,599 federal government, and seventy five of them are defunct but 451 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,519 still listed as open, which is a problem the government 452 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,680 doesn't even know. The point is the government is so 453 00:25:01,759 --> 00:25:04,400 big and then yielded, they don't even know how many 454 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,319 agencies they're in charge of. And if you look at 455 00:25:08,319 --> 00:25:11,720 the Constitution, you know there is an argument for four 456 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:17,400 and maybe five federal agencies Departments of State, Justice, Defense, 457 00:25:19,319 --> 00:25:21,359 and then maybe arguably interstate Commerce. 458 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,039 Speaker 1: If you want to be generous and throw I know 459 00:25:24,079 --> 00:25:26,759 Alexander Hamilton really lobbied for that EPA. 460 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, and in a great exam Yeah. 461 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 3: So it would be defense, state, Treasury, Justice, maybe interstate Commerce. 462 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,920 But then everything else doesn't belong. And look at the 463 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,839 Department of Education, for example. So that department didn't exist 464 00:25:44,079 --> 00:25:50,079 until nineteen eighty and somehow we managed to win two 465 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,160 World wars, put a man on the moon, become a 466 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:58,000 global superpower without the Department of Education. Amazing, and we've 467 00:25:58,039 --> 00:26:01,160 done tremendous oversight work. We are one of the strengths 468 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,400 of Open the Books, and I give you the late 469 00:26:04,519 --> 00:26:06,960 co founder Adam Ajievski, who I took over four about 470 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:12,000 a year ago. He very very wisely built on what 471 00:26:12,039 --> 00:26:14,960 we did with the Cobra and Obama Bill and Opened 472 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,880 the Books captures not just federal but stayed and local spending. 473 00:26:18,519 --> 00:26:22,119 So we have the biggest database of government spending ever created. 474 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:22,759 Speaker 2: In human history. 475 00:26:22,799 --> 00:26:25,799 Speaker 3: We've got, you know, billions of lines of data and 476 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,759 it's an extremely powerful tool. So we looked at all 477 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:35,799 education districts school districts in the country and found that 478 00:26:35,839 --> 00:26:40,079 there's a negative correlation between twelve thousand school districts and 479 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,680 overall student achievement and payroll. So in other words, as 480 00:26:44,759 --> 00:26:50,359 we increase payroll, student achievement goes down again. It shows 481 00:26:51,559 --> 00:26:52,079 why do we. 482 00:26:52,079 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 2: Keep doing it the way we've been doing it? 483 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 1: It doesn't insanity, since yeah, it's just absolute insanity. Why 484 00:26:58,480 --> 00:26:59,880 do we keep doing all of that? 485 00:27:00,559 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 2: Because there's not there's not enough accountability. 486 00:27:03,039 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 3: So I so, you know, one of the phrases that's 487 00:27:05,279 --> 00:27:07,400 popular these days is the deep state. The deep state 488 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,599 is is a is a real thing. It's not a 489 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,319 conspiracy theory. However, what is more dominant is what I 490 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:17,240 call the default state, is that we just spend trillions 491 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,119 and trillions of dollars every year without much debate or thought, 492 00:27:20,559 --> 00:27:23,319 and it just goes on and on and we never 493 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,720 stop to think about it. And so again that's why 494 00:27:25,799 --> 00:27:30,519 shut downs are. You know, it sounds crass to say 495 00:27:30,519 --> 00:27:32,400 that it's an opportunity because it's I don't think it's 496 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,920 every smart opportunity to take. But when one side picks 497 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,960 a fight about it, it is it does become about 498 00:27:40,319 --> 00:27:42,359 this discussion of why do we have all these things 499 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,680 on autopilot? You know, when there's when there's talk about 500 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:50,640 deeming some government employees essential versus non essential. That begs 501 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:52,920 the question, if they're non essential, why are they. 502 00:27:52,759 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 2: There, why are we wondering them? 503 00:27:55,599 --> 00:27:59,519 Speaker 3: And again not to overstate is the the problem is 504 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:04,680 really one of spending more than personnel. So government personnel 505 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,319 has been relatively stable actually the past twenty years, but 506 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,279 what is skyrocketed is spending. We've had about a three 507 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:16,000 hundred percent increase in administrative state spending. While payroll has 508 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,680 been relatively the number of employees has been relatively flat. Now, 509 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,799 granted some of that has been outsourced through the weaponization 510 00:28:22,839 --> 00:28:27,559 of NGOs. That's a separate problem. But again it's a 511 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,200 chance to make the argument about the real issue, which 512 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,599 is the unyield, the SISO scope of government, the fact 513 00:28:34,599 --> 00:28:36,839 that our debt and deficits are having a drag effect 514 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,640 on the economy. They're hurting innovation, hurting job creation, making 515 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:44,240 things less affordable, and that's what we ought to be 516 00:28:44,279 --> 00:28:46,279 focusing on. And that's what that's what we're trying to 517 00:28:46,319 --> 00:28:49,799 do through transparency, is to help elevate the conversation. 518 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,799 Speaker 1: Well, that is the key, That is the key, transparency. 519 00:28:52,839 --> 00:28:55,359 So the final question for you is where do we 520 00:28:55,400 --> 00:29:00,119 go from here, because eventually these people that we all 521 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,920 elected will have to do their jobs, and their number 522 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,039 one priority, of course is to set a budget, which 523 00:29:07,079 --> 00:29:09,599 they have done in a very long time. Where does 524 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,119 where do you see all of this going from here? 525 00:29:13,359 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 3: Well, I think, you know, I don't think the shutdown 526 00:29:16,119 --> 00:29:19,599 is I think somebody is going to blink relatively soon, 527 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,000 I hope. So again, it's just it's not it's not 528 00:29:22,079 --> 00:29:24,400 it's it is it's a dangerous dynamic. It's not a 529 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,079 good signal to send to global markets economically from a 530 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:29,759 national security perspective. 531 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 2: So I think I think what we need to do 532 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:35,640 is have. 533 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 3: Is build on some of the things that doge identified, 534 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,119 but go much much farther and have a more Milton 535 00:29:43,119 --> 00:29:46,119 Freedment approach and say why do we why do we 536 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,279 have four hundred and forty one agencies when the Constitution 537 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,880 really only authorizes four And we need to have a 538 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:57,640 much more robust, serious look at reorganizing and downsizing the 539 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,000 administrative state. We need to have a much more serious 540 00:30:01,039 --> 00:30:06,559 conversation about about safety net programs. So one of the 541 00:30:06,559 --> 00:30:10,279 fundamental questions of our time is are we going to 542 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:15,039 support quote universal entitlements or are we going to help 543 00:30:15,079 --> 00:30:19,160 poor people, and you can't really do both. We can't 544 00:30:19,519 --> 00:30:23,559 this whole ideological concept that we must have a universal 545 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,400 entitlement that may have made sense one hundred years ago, 546 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,920 it does not make sense anymore. That was the whole 547 00:30:29,039 --> 00:30:33,000 argument for social security, is to say that a program 548 00:30:33,039 --> 00:30:36,440 for poor people will be a poor program, and therefore 549 00:30:36,559 --> 00:30:39,839 we must have a universal, one size fits all kind 550 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,440 of approach to government, when in reality, if you have, 551 00:30:43,599 --> 00:30:46,160 if you give states much more flexibility and a twenty 552 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,720 first century federalism model to take care of people in 553 00:30:49,759 --> 00:30:52,920 their local communities and to make sure that anyone that 554 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,000 needs help can get help, and if government has a 555 00:30:55,079 --> 00:30:57,119 role to play, then the states can figure out how 556 00:30:57,119 --> 00:31:02,000 to do that. Maybe the federal government can block rant something. 557 00:31:02,079 --> 00:31:04,960 I mean, there are ways to reorganize in the restructure 558 00:31:05,599 --> 00:31:08,119 what we think of as universal entitlements that will be 559 00:31:08,279 --> 00:31:11,960 much much more beneficial for poor people than they are today. 560 00:31:12,759 --> 00:31:14,880 Not so this whole idea that we're going to save 561 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,680 social security by not touching it, but by not reforming 562 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,799 social security, you're condemning future generations to bankruptcy. And social 563 00:31:21,799 --> 00:31:27,960 security payments themselves have decreased substantially because of inflation. So 564 00:31:28,119 --> 00:31:30,440 there is a de facto cut that happens every year 565 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:32,920 because we haven't modernized these programs. 566 00:31:34,519 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 2: Those are the things we need. That's where we need 567 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:36,880 to go from here. 568 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,119 Speaker 1: Well, knowledge is power, and you don't get that knowledge 569 00:31:42,119 --> 00:31:46,920 without transparency by opening the books. That's what you have 570 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:51,039 to do, and that's what John Hart and his organization do, 571 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,359 and do very well. I might add, he may be 572 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,519 the last guy in America who looks all right in 573 00:31:56,519 --> 00:31:59,960 a leisure suit. You're saying, platform shoes. You're going to 574 00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:02,880 have to give up though, my friend, I'm sorry. Yeah, 575 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:04,920 that's all right. I'm sorry. You were doing the hustle. 576 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,519 We all were thanks to my guest today, Open the book, CEO, 577 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,119 John Hart. You've been listening to another edition of the 578 00:32:11,119 --> 00:32:14,920 Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at 579 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,240 the Federalist. We'll be back soon with more. Until then, 580 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,319 stay lovers of freedom and anxious for the frame.