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Speaker 1: Hello, Hey, what's going on, Sam? How are you doing good?

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Speaker 2: Good? How are you?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely fantastic and very excited to share a conversation with

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you because this book is so damn interesting.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: Where did you get the idea to even come up

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with this? Were you googling? Were you on chat, GPT

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or what?

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Speaker 2: No? No, So I mean I have had a long

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time love of history. You know, I graduated from Stanford

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with a degree in history, but even when I was

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a little kid, I would ask my teacher to borrow

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the teachers edition of the textbook so I could read

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all the extra like discussion questions and stuff, for you know,

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stuff will spark curiosity from students, and so I've always

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been interested in getting beyond the basic stories that you

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hear in the classroom, beyond the minimum. And what I

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found was so fascinating was that so many historical figures,

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who I already studied in the course of my classes

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or other stuff, I found that a lot of them would,

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even in some of the official accounts, have maybe a

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line or two about them using substances, but they would

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bat it away like it's not interesting, even though it's

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very interesting. And so I just kept I just kept

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pulling on threads and seeing where they led, and it

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turns out that there were a lot of rabbit holes

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waiting to be explored.

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Speaker 1: See, this is the kind of stuff that radio people

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will dig into. So I I'm you know, I'm not

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going to be shocked if I'm driving down the road

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and the jock on the radio starts quoting this book,

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because this is content, and we all crave content.

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Speaker 2: It's exciting.

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Speaker 1: The book we're talking about is human history on drugs.

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So when you when you look at the book cover,

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you're going, what what is it? But then when you

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dive into it, you're going, oh, hell, yes, this is

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exactly what I want to learn.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, it's so fascinating. And again it's all

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this stuff is is here, but it was scattered in pieces,

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and so what I've done is brought it together and created,

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you know, put it in this compe of all these

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different narratives of people's stories and how substances affected their life.

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And I think it chose a side of these historical

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personages that a lot of people haven't seen.

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Speaker 1: So now let's be honest here in the way of

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when they were taking the substance was it looked upon

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as being drugs? I mean, because I mean you talk

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about Adolf Hitler here being tweaked out. I mean it's like,

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did he know it was a drug?

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Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, he definitely knew he was being given drugs.

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I mean, Hitler did not start doing drugs around then.

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He'd fought in World War One, right, and during the

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World Wars it was very standard practice for militaries to

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give their troops stimulants in order to make them able

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to fight longer, need less sleep, need less food. So

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Hitler had spent World War One doing massive amounts of cocaine,

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which he had been supplied with by his superiors in

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the German military. So he was he knew what drugs were,

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and he liked them. But his doctor had a list

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of a hundred different substances that by World War Two

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he was giving Hitler, and among them he was taking

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not just methamphetamine, but he did oxy codone. He did again,

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there was the cocaine, but also the strange experimental stuffs.

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So Hitler liked to talk about how he was involved

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in clean living, but what that was was a pr

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stunt where he would brag about how he didn't drink

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or smoke, and he was a vegetarian for his health,

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but was also doing so many drugs that were injected

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into him, and he simply didn't mention that in order

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to present this image of him as this superhuman who

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is the embodiment of German strength.

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Speaker 1: You just talk about that clean living right away. Two

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people come to mind, Gene Simmons and Donald Trump, and

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I'm going and when they tell me, now there's no drugs,

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I'm going got that. I just don't believe that story.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we can't. It's hard to know about these

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things when people are still alive. A lot of the

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most useful docum mints that I found have been personal diaries,

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recollections of people's doctors, or just the actual like manifests

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of the actual drugs that they've gotten. A lot of

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these things they really only come out after people have

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passed away, because again, a lot of this stuff, certainly

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for people in positions of power, it can definitely still

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be seen as as harmful to their image if they

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are known to be avid drug users. So a lot

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of these people will actively try and at least try

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and obfuscate whether they're on drugs or not. So it's

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hard to know about people who are still alive.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of manifesting, I mean Steve Jobs doing LSD, that

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doesn't shock me because I mean, didn't he grow up

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in that time period where LSD was kind of experimental.

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Speaker 2: I mean, Steve Jobs had a very counter culture sort

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of upbring. You know, he was a guy who he'd

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spent time traveling around India trying to find himself, exploring

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alternative spiritu duality he was studying. You know, he was

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interested in like Japanese calligraphy and zen and all that.

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He was very much kind of like a counter culture

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type guy who believed in trying to find unconventional ways

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to live and certainly his it was just part of

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the scene that he was in. Was that. Yeah, he

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experimented with LSD several times back in the day, and

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he admitted as such on a security clearance form for

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the government, and he said that LSD was one of

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the two or three best things that he'd done in

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his life, that it helped change his thinking and helped

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him think different, as the old slogan used to go.

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Speaker 1: I was not shocked to learn that Sigmund Freud actually

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loved cocaine. And the reason why I wasn't shocked is

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because I mean, cocaine used to be in coke, so

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I mean it's like it was acceptable.

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Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, When Sigmund Freud was doing cocaine, it was

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completely legal. A lot of the laws against cocaine did

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not come into place until the twentieth century, and when

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he was he was starting out in his scientific career,

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cocaine was seen as a scientific novelty in Europe, to

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the point where a lot of the time, the place

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where he was getting cocaine was that he would just

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write to pharmaceutical companies and say, Hi, I'm a respected

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doctor in the community. I would let to try your products,

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and that would just give three samples of medical grade cocaine.

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Speaker 1: Please do not move. There's more with Sam Kelly coming

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up next. Hey, welcome back to my conversation with Sam Kelly,

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the name of the book Human History on Drugs. Now,

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I'm right here in Andrew Jackson Country. So the thing

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is one thing that they've they've never I've been to

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his estate and stuff here, and I did not know

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that he was a drunk. I had no clue that

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this was even happening.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean Andrew Jackson was He's the part of

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person where the alcohol really made him more himself. I mean,

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he was already a terrifyingly violent man with a hair

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trigger temper who was known for having very big reactions

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to things, and this is just a scary dude in general,

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and his drinking really kind of enhanced that part of

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his personality, which, to be fair, is most of his

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personality was this very aggressive and so it dove tailed

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well with that, and so he drank a lot himself,

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and he very definitely used alcohol to appeal to the

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large groups of poor white men who were his biggest

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These were the people who really brought into the political

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system as staunch supporters of them. And basically he did

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it by having campaign rallies that were a lot more

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like crazy parties, or they'd served massive amounts of free

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booze to people who are willing to vote for him.

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Speaker 1: Wow. See this gift goes back to what you were

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talking about that they kind of tuck away these these

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these true stories about these people, because I mean, when

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it comes to Andrew Jackson, I didn't know that he

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was a drunken. Thing about it is though, is that

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we always saw him as a visionary, as somebody who

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stretched this nation and stuff. And you're the first person

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I've ever met that said he was an angry man.

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I didn't know that side of him either.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I mean, he definitely was. I mean, this is

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the guy who fought in over one hundred duels during

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his lifetime. I mean, this is one of the only

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cases I can think of where there was the time

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when a guy tried to assassinate Andrew Jackson and both

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the guy's guns jammed and Andrew Jackson. Now, understandably everyone

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to be mad about trying to get shot like this,

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but Andrew Johnson Jackson, I'm sorry, Jackson just starts jumping

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on the guy and just wailing on him. Potentially several

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congress people, including Congressman Davy Crockett, have to pull Andrew

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Jackson off the halfless would be assassin because they're afraid

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that he's going to beat a guy to death in

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broad daylight.

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Speaker 1: When you write a book like this, do you find

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yourself wanting to do something for Netflix or even create

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a podcast and do it one chapter at a time.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think that this book has a lot

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of potential to be adapted into something else, like just

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potentially like some kind of episodic series, especially since the

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book is already divided into all these sections. You know,

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there's forty people or groups and in forty chapters, and

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so each one you can like knock you out in

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about ten minutes or just binge the whole thing. And

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so I think a format like that would lended very

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well to being adapted to some kind of episodic format.

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But again that depends on if people are interested in that.

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I haven't been getting those offers yet, but hopefully knock

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on a wood soon. You know.

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Speaker 1: William Shakespeare loving cannabis. I'm not shocked, of course he did.

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He's a brilliant writer. You've got to get into that

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zone and bring it out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, not to mention that he made up hundreds of

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words and then we just use them as if they're

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part of regular language, to the point where we now

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accept that as like that is in many ways he

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helped create English as we know it today, simply because

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he was so willing to just make up words and

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then use them like they were totally real.

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Speaker 1: Cocaine wine? Are you kidding me? Was this a real thing.

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Speaker 2: This was a real thing that was hugely popular. Like

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I said, during the nineteenth century, cocaine was mostly seen

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as a novelty, a curiosity, and so this is the

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kind of stuff where in the same way that you

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can buy an energy drink with like gin saying and

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warana and stuff like that, cocaine was seen as a

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very similar thing. It's like, oh, hey, this is an

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energy booster, it makes you feel good, kind of sues

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you your pains. Why not add it to whatever. So

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there was chewing gum with cocaine in it. There was

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cocaine wine. And again the cocaine wine was so popular

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that the most the most beloved brand of it was

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called Vin Marianni, and multiple people in my book drank it.

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Pope Plio the thirteenth drank it. He loved it so much.

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You did a full page advertisement for it, endorsing it

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and gave the creator a gold medal from the Vatican.

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There was also Thomas Edison Queen Victoria. You listen to

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ask Brant you could just buy this stuff at the

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grocery store, and lots of people did. It was very popular.

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Speaker 1: You call Queen Victoria the biggest drug dealer of all time, dude, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: That's right. I mean, she presided over the huge expansion

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of opium dealing as one of the British Empire's main

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source of income. She fights, you know, under Queen Victoria,

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Britain fights two wars against China for the quote unquote

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right to keep selling opium there. And that's where they

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get Hong Kong from Hong Kong comes into British control

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because of the battles over opium, and ultimately it ends

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up providing ten to fifteen percent of the entire empire's revenue.

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Speaker 1: So then why does it become illegal if everybody was

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using it, why is it illegal?

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Speaker 2: Oh, that's the thing. She didn't start selling it in

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China after they put more restrictions on it in Britain

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because in Britain they'd finally they realized that a lot

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of people were getting addicted to it left and right.

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The addictiveness was not like Chinese law did not allow

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the sale of opium, but Britain was buying a lot

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of tea from China, but China didn't really want much

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else they had until opium came along. For Britain, this

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was a way to reduce a trade deficit by starting

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a massive drug dealing operation that would encourage They wanted

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people from China buying way more of their products than

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they were buying Chinese products, and the British drank a

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lot of tea, and the thing that they could sell

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most effectively was a super super addictive drug, so that

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was part of the appeal for that.

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Speaker 1: I'm shocked at tea or anything caffeine is not considered

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a drug, and he.

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Speaker 2: Is technically a drug. It's a lot milder. I mean,

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caffeine is one of the mildest drugs out there. It's very,

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very widely consumed, but there aren't really a lot of

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the stories that made it into the book did rely

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on somewhat harder or more unusual substances, simply because t

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is both both tea and coffee are so common, and

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caffeine is everywhere, and there's not a lot of the

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stories you get from caffeine aren't quite as thrilling or

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revolutionary as the ones from more potent drugs that do

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more stuff.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm still not over the fact that they made

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a federin illegal because that was my go to to

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get that up. And then all of a sudden it

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became illegal. It'say, well why why?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, again, that's one of those things where I

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think they banned it because it could be used as

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a precursor in an amphetamine based drugs. That is the

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kind of reason that a lot of things do end

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up getting banned, is that it's easy to make other

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drugs from them. But yeah, I mean yeah. Ephedrine has

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been used in the form of a federal leaves as

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part of Chinese traditional medicine and a lot of other

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medicine around the world since for thousands of years. So

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it's strange.

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Speaker 1: I would love to see how people are going to

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read this book, because I mean, I'm guilty of Okay,

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I go in there, I look at the you know,

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the glossary, and I sit there and sit there and go, oh,

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I know that person, Let me go read that story.

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And so I think they're going to be, you know,

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a chapter jumping is what they're going to be doing.

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What do you feel?

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Speaker 2: Oh? No. I encourage people to read this in any

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way that they feel that it provides them the best

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both entertainment and educational experience. I want people to learn

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and have fun with this book, and so certainly if

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people see name that they recognize and they want to

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read those chapters first, I embrace that. If they want

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to read it in order, I embrace that, if they

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want to binge it, I embrace that. My goal is

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basically that I've tried to make each chapter like fairly

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self contained so it can stand on the phone, but

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at the same time including plenty of references to others

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so that you see how this is part of what

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a bigger narrative of human beings using substances throughout time.

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Speaker 1: Wow, where can people go to find out more about you?

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Speaker 2: Sam? Yeah, so I am on TikTok as human History

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on bergs because you can't write drugs and TikTok apparently

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I know, right, It's like, couldn't someone just talk about

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drugs fel different? I don't know. But then on Instagram

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I am human History on Drugs. And then there's the

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clearing house site for my book at Penguin Random House.

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You look up Human History on Drugs Penguin Random House,

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and you can see anywhere that you might want to

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buy a book.

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Speaker 1: You got to come back to this show anytime in

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the future. Man. I love your humor. I love everything

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that you're doing with your words.

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Speaker 2: Hey, thank you so much. I really appreciate that. I'd

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be happy to come back.

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Speaker 1: Will you be brilliant today?

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Speaker 2: Okay, Sam, absolutely, thank you so much