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No person has 22 00:00:58.479 --> 00:01:02.880 every y loss each confiding black Lock Hostadian. 23 00:01:12.280 --> 00:01:15.719 You are now listening to True Murder The most Shocking 24 00:01:15.799 --> 00:01:18.840 Killers in True crime History and the authors that have 25 00:01:18.920 --> 00:01:26.519 written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week, 26 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:30.480 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 27 00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:34.560 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 28 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:47.799 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. Good evening. 29 00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:50.760 This is your host Dan Zepanski for the program True Murder, 30 00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:53.840 The most shocking Killers in true crime History and the 31 00:01:53.879 --> 00:01:57.400 authors that have written about them. In November nineteen seventy, 32 00:01:57.519 --> 00:02:00.480 Charles Manson was sentenced to death for the wholefing in 33 00:02:00.519 --> 00:02:04.120 cold blooded murders of seven people near Los Angeles. His 34 00:02:04.200 --> 00:02:09.199 sentence was later reduced to life imprisonment after California abolished 35 00:02:09.240 --> 00:02:14.319 its death penalty and Manson's triald. Lead prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi, 36 00:02:14.680 --> 00:02:17.400 spun the story of a demonic cult leader who hypnotized 37 00:02:17.439 --> 00:02:21.199 people to commit murder. He published his theory in Helter Skelter, 38 00:02:21.639 --> 00:02:25.080 the best selling true crime book of all time. When 39 00:02:25.120 --> 00:02:27.919 author Marlin Merrinick was eight years old. He discovered a 40 00:02:27.960 --> 00:02:30.960 beat up copy of Helter Skelter. The book's portrayal of 41 00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:34.800 Charles Manson was an icon of unbridled evil haunted as 42 00:02:34.840 --> 00:02:38.280 an icon of unbridled evil haunted Merinick for years, well 43 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:41.199 into his career as a psychiatric nurse. So when a 44 00:02:41.280 --> 00:02:44.800 chance conversation with a man selling Manson memorabilia on the 45 00:02:44.840 --> 00:02:49.199 Internet facilitated a connection to Manson himself, Marinick went along 46 00:02:49.240 --> 00:02:52.919 for the ride. This Happenstance's journey introduced Merinick to Manson's 47 00:02:52.919 --> 00:02:57.599 closest confidants, eager to share Manson's story, his talent, his passion, 48 00:02:58.000 --> 00:03:03.280 and his philosophy. The adventure chriscended through Marynick's phoned conversations 49 00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:06.319 with Manson and ultimately culminated when the two met behind 50 00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:10.759 the tightly locked doors of California's Corkoran State Prison. Charles 51 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:16.120 Manson Now is a critical dissection of what happened forty 52 00:03:16.159 --> 00:03:25.319 one years ago when the Manson family dominated and stormed 53 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:28.319 the Polank Yesterday and murdered five people, among them one 54 00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:32.000 of America's most beautiful beloved actresses, Sharon Tate. This book 55 00:03:32.039 --> 00:03:36.039 is also a clause of Manson's own writing a poetic, ironic, 56 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:39.240 and disturbing account of his universe, from his childhood to 57 00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:42.039 his time in the eight x twenty eight x twelve 58 00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:45.400 prison cell where he is contemned to stay for the 59 00:03:45.400 --> 00:03:50.599 rest of his life. With my special guest Marlin Marrinick 60 00:03:50.800 --> 00:03:54.400 with his book Charles Manson. Now, welcome to the program, 61 00:03:54.439 --> 00:03:57.400 and thank you to agreeing to this interview. Marlin Merrinick, 62 00:03:58.439 --> 00:04:01.319 thanks a lot, Dan, happy to be here. Thank you 63 00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:07.199 very much. Now, I guess what everybody might ask after 64 00:04:07.240 --> 00:04:11.199 they listened to this is how on earth did you 65 00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:17.639 come to getting correspondence with Marlin with Charles Manson? And why? 66 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:21.079 It's one of those things that I think if anyone 67 00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:24.160 set out to do, and thousands of people have, you 68 00:04:24.199 --> 00:04:28.720 can't really get anywhere. So just by dumb luck, if 69 00:04:28.759 --> 00:04:31.319 you want to call it that, and a weird sequence 70 00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:33.959 of events and coincidence that everything's kind. 71 00:04:33.879 --> 00:04:34.560 Of fell together. 72 00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:40.160 So what the short version is, Basically, I knew I 73 00:04:40.199 --> 00:04:44.920 had a friend who had no one Manson since the sixties, 74 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:48.160 before the crimes that happened. They kept in touch over 75 00:04:48.199 --> 00:04:51.600 the years, and you know, through out his time in 76 00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:55.879 prison and stuff, and through that relationship an inmate named 77 00:04:55.959 --> 00:04:59.040 Kenny Callahan got a hold of my address. A lot 78 00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:03.160 of people, because Charles Manson is such a famous inmate, 79 00:05:03.199 --> 00:05:05.720 a lot of other inmates will take his mail and 80 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:09.079 they call it fishing. They'll try to get outside contacts 81 00:05:09.079 --> 00:05:12.319 and try to get stuff like stamps or money, you know, 82 00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:16.040 whatever kind of relationships they can form. And so through 83 00:05:16.040 --> 00:05:20.839 this Kenny Callahan guy, I started a relationship with him, 84 00:05:20.839 --> 00:05:22.959 and he told me that, you know, once Charlie got 85 00:05:22.959 --> 00:05:25.639 out of the hole, he would have Charlie phone me. 86 00:05:26.279 --> 00:05:28.800 And I didn't think this was real. Of course I saw, well, 87 00:05:28.839 --> 00:05:31.040 you know, whatever kind of thing. And at the time 88 00:05:32.279 --> 00:05:35.759 Charles Manson was in the hole, he had fashioned a 89 00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:38.920 knife out of an armbrace that that one of the 90 00:05:38.920 --> 00:05:42.439 other inmates had had. And you know, having a I 91 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:44.319 guess it would be called a prison shank or whatever. 92 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:46.720 So having a weapon like that is a very serious offense. 93 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:48.839 And he was thrown in the hole for a year 94 00:05:49.120 --> 00:05:50.959 and when he got out he called. 95 00:05:53.879 --> 00:05:55.759 So that was how many months after you had had 96 00:05:55.759 --> 00:05:56.480 this conversation. 97 00:05:56.560 --> 00:06:00.560 Sorry, I'd been dealing with Kenny probably for three months 98 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:03.000 before that happened, three or four months. 99 00:06:03.079 --> 00:06:07.839 So and and tell us about the first opportunity. Tell 100 00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:10.839 us just more about you had this opportunity finally got 101 00:06:10.839 --> 00:06:12.360 out of the whole tell us a little bit more, 102 00:06:12.439 --> 00:06:16.800 continue with what what what occurred that in this correspondence 103 00:06:16.839 --> 00:06:18.879 and tell us a little bit more about that. 104 00:06:19.480 --> 00:06:24.639 When when I started talking to Charlie is his whole 105 00:06:24.639 --> 00:06:27.000 focus has always been around the environments. And I remember 106 00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:31.079 talking about insects and birds and crows and you know 107 00:06:31.160 --> 00:06:34.279 that kind of stuff, the ocean, and and he's his 108 00:06:34.360 --> 00:06:36.519 whole focus is trying to save the air and and 109 00:06:36.600 --> 00:06:39.600 he called it at WAH, which is an acronym that 110 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:43.519 stands for air, tree, water, and animals. And and so 111 00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:46.399 I kind of got adapt, you know, to his his 112 00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:50.360 philosophy and his way of thinking. And and because I 113 00:06:50.399 --> 00:06:55.279 was in Canada, he thought that maybe there was a 114 00:06:55.279 --> 00:06:58.759 way that I could bring in a camera crew and 115 00:06:58.759 --> 00:07:01.199 we could do this final address. He had this idea 116 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:04.079 of doing a one final interview, and he wanted to 117 00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:07.000 make it a statement. So his vision of this was 118 00:07:07.079 --> 00:07:09.120 to dress up like a general and command all the 119 00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:11.199 armies in the world to stop fighting each other and 120 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:15.600 start fighting pollution. And so that was kind of what, 121 00:07:17.240 --> 00:07:19.639 you know, kind of bonded us in a way and 122 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:23.800 kind of helped form the relationship with his focus on 123 00:07:23.879 --> 00:07:25.279 trying to get this interview to happen. 124 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:29.959 Now, I mean, obviously you weren't fascinated with him as 125 00:07:29.959 --> 00:07:34.160 an environmentalist when you were young or at some point 126 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:37.480 when you had this correspondence, but take us back, take 127 00:07:37.519 --> 00:07:39.560 us even back. I thought it was very fascinating. You 128 00:07:39.639 --> 00:07:42.920 described the when you first saw the book Held Skeleton, 129 00:07:42.959 --> 00:07:45.240 and obviously that would be your first exposure to the 130 00:07:45.319 --> 00:07:48.319 story and what you got from it, what your impressions were, 131 00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:51.560 and give us that whole scenario where you where were you, 132 00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:55.120 Where were the circumstances that you came upon this classic 133 00:07:55.360 --> 00:07:59.639 true crime book and first encountered the personality of Charles 134 00:07:59.680 --> 00:08:02.000 mans and at least through this perspective. 135 00:08:02.879 --> 00:08:05.720 Yeah, when I was writing the book, I had to remember, 136 00:08:05.879 --> 00:08:07.759 I had to go back and try to figure out 137 00:08:07.759 --> 00:08:11.480 what was my earliest remembrance of Charles Manson, and that 138 00:08:11.480 --> 00:08:13.959 that was through Helter Skelter. And I'm sure it's like 139 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:17.360 that through for most people. And so I was a kid, 140 00:08:17.399 --> 00:08:20.560 I found a copy of the book and I found 141 00:08:20.600 --> 00:08:22.920 in an abandoned house house. We used to play in 142 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:25.519 those when I was a kid. We used to rummage 143 00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:28.040 around in those kind of places and stuff, and I 144 00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:31.439 remember the imagery and you know, the blood writing on 145 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:33.799 the walls, and I remember his eyes and that intense look, 146 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:37.360 and it was I would have been about like, you know, 147 00:08:37.480 --> 00:08:40.360 eight years old or so, and the whole thing was 148 00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:44.279 like very horrific. The guy gave me nightmares, So you know, 149 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:47.799 he was a kind of a monster from my childhood. 150 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:52.720 That that's kind of my releast remembrance of him. 151 00:08:52.759 --> 00:08:55.200 How important was that book? I mean, did you did 152 00:08:55.240 --> 00:08:57.320 you just see it that you were affected by by 153 00:08:57.679 --> 00:09:01.039 looking at it? But I mean, ten years old, some 154 00:09:01.080 --> 00:09:04.039 of these things might be hard to comprehend. Was it 155 00:09:04.120 --> 00:09:07.039 a book that was still important? Did you read it again? 156 00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:09.480 I mean, what did you get out of the book 157 00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:12.679 other than here was the portrayal of this monster? Did 158 00:09:12.679 --> 00:09:15.559 you get anything else from the book, either at that 159 00:09:15.679 --> 00:09:18.200 young age or a little bit earlier late later. 160 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:21.639 On, Well, when I was exposed to that, I come 161 00:09:21.679 --> 00:09:24.840 from a dysfunctional family. My father was an alcoholic and 162 00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:30.840 my mother completed suicide, and so I think that kind 163 00:09:30.919 --> 00:09:37.080 of in a way opened up a whole world of 164 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:39.879 weirdness for me. And I've always been attracted to kind 165 00:09:39.879 --> 00:09:45.039 of darker, odder stranger kind of things and subcultures, and 166 00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:48.639 I think that was kind of how I got interested 167 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:50.840 in that as a child. It was something that was 168 00:09:50.919 --> 00:09:53.639 kind of forbidden and maybe taboo in a way. And 169 00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:56.639 I don't even like back then, I don't remember hearing 170 00:09:56.679 --> 00:09:59.600 the term like serial killers or having any you know, 171 00:09:59.639 --> 00:10:03.240 there was an know reference other than other than that book. 172 00:10:03.320 --> 00:10:07.919 And oddly enough, all of that kind of experience transpired 173 00:10:07.960 --> 00:10:10.200 into a career in psychiatry, and that's what I've been 174 00:10:10.200 --> 00:10:13.960 doing for the last fifteen years. And so to me, 175 00:10:14.879 --> 00:10:19.399 I was more interested in the psychological kind of aspect 176 00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:23.519 of Manson than anything else that was fascinating. And I 177 00:10:23.519 --> 00:10:27.879 think that was ingrained very early, you know, from my childhood. 178 00:10:27.879 --> 00:10:29.759 And then every once in a while, you know, growing up, 179 00:10:29.799 --> 00:10:33.039 you see glimpses of them on TV doing different interviews. 180 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:37.440 I remember seeing the Heraldo thing and the different Parole hearings, 181 00:10:37.480 --> 00:10:39.440 you know, where you see that where he's like acting 182 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:42.440 out or whatever, that kind of stuff, And so it's 183 00:10:42.440 --> 00:10:44.720 always it's kind of progressed, and he's always kind of 184 00:10:44.759 --> 00:10:46.639 been in the background. It's always kind of been there. 185 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:53.320 But you must have had some preconception or you must 186 00:10:53.360 --> 00:10:56.480 have had some conclusion. I mean, I'm going to ask 187 00:10:56.519 --> 00:11:01.080 you later what your conclusion was after a correspondence and 188 00:11:01.159 --> 00:11:04.679 a friendship or a relationship of sorts with with Charles Manson, 189 00:11:04.759 --> 00:11:07.559 But did you have any because on what I'm alluding 190 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:11.159 to is you when I talked in the description of 191 00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:15.960 the book, used the word spun, the Bulagosi spun. So 192 00:11:16.039 --> 00:11:17.879 I mean, I don't have to be you know, I'm 193 00:11:17.919 --> 00:11:21.519 reading between the lines, but they're very very obvious. You know. 194 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:24.799 What we're alluding to for those people that don't really know, 195 00:11:25.159 --> 00:11:28.440 is if you could explain what we're really alluding to, 196 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:32.080 and if there is any controversy about Charles Manson's certainly 197 00:11:32.120 --> 00:11:36.799 not that he was, you know, powerful charismatic. He affected everything. 198 00:11:37.080 --> 00:11:40.919 From that point on, it became a true crime classic 199 00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:45.799 because it did attract people. The story was profound, Sharon Tate, 200 00:11:45.960 --> 00:11:52.519 Roman Polonski, Hollywood, hippies, drugs, sex, so it had all 201 00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:55.559 those elements, and it had distorted because they didn't get 202 00:11:55.600 --> 00:11:58.919 the facts right away. Of course, rumor and gossip and 203 00:11:59.000 --> 00:12:02.639 everything went intal. So tell us really in your minds 204 00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:05.639 before we get too far for our audience, what in 205 00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:10.080 your mind is controversial about Bulagosi, the author, but also 206 00:12:10.200 --> 00:12:14.639 the prosecutor of Charles Manson in terms of what Manson 207 00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:18.279 is believed to have done and what you think he Okay, 208 00:12:18.600 --> 00:12:19.159 just explained. 209 00:12:19.320 --> 00:12:24.080 Yes, I guess in the beginning, like before, I totally 210 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:26.879 believe the helter skelter version of events. I mean I 211 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:28.960 had no reason to question it. It was, you know, a 212 00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:32.200 huge book, and the way Manson was portrayed and the 213 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:35.320 way he carried himself, it all seemed to fit. I 214 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:38.399 always struggled with the whole concept of mind control though, 215 00:12:38.440 --> 00:12:44.159 and and being you know, interested into in psychology and 216 00:12:44.720 --> 00:12:46.759 those kind of things. It's something I've kind of deld 217 00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:48.799 in a little bit and that that really didn't make 218 00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:51.919 a whole lot of sense to me. And there's been 219 00:12:52.039 --> 00:12:54.440 similar kind of things that remember, like in the eighties 220 00:12:54.519 --> 00:12:57.879 when you know, bands like I remember Judas Priest had 221 00:12:57.919 --> 00:13:01.200 to go to trial because one of you know, one 222 00:13:01.240 --> 00:13:04.240 of their fans had completed suicide and it was you know, 223 00:13:04.279 --> 00:13:06.799 this music's doing that, and somehow if you played something 224 00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:10.080 backwards it said something. And I think Ozzy Osbourne went 225 00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:11.879 through a similar kind of a thing, and so it 226 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:15.320 was this whole thing about secret messages and what things 227 00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:17.840 really mean and who's controlling what, and you know that 228 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:22.039 that's kind of been a fascinating thing for me. And 229 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:24.879 so that was, you know, when I kind of got 230 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:27.639 immersed in this and decided to write a book, and 231 00:13:27.639 --> 00:13:30.559 when all that was kind of coming together and I 232 00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:32.879 did researcher around that, that was one of the issues 233 00:13:32.919 --> 00:13:34.480 I had to go into, was you know, could this, 234 00:13:34.759 --> 00:13:36.399 you know, really happen kind of thing? 235 00:13:36.440 --> 00:13:39.320 And so that was kind of the. 236 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:41.720 First thing I kind of, I would say, broke down 237 00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:45.120 a little bit, because I mean, if you look at 238 00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:47.879 those events back in nineteen sixty nine, what was happening, 239 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:51.519 Like everyone's on drugs, there's a lot of and every 240 00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:53.600 there's a lot of chaos and stuff. And if you 241 00:13:53.639 --> 00:13:55.840 go into Charlie's life and I haven't actually talked to 242 00:13:55.879 --> 00:13:58.200 him about any of this, but this is just what 243 00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:00.559 people tell me and what I remember and what's kind 244 00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:04.480 of in the helter skelter version of things. So you 245 00:14:04.600 --> 00:14:08.000 got a guy who has been in jail the majority 246 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:08.600 of his life. 247 00:14:08.799 --> 00:14:09.840 He gets out right. 248 00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:13.519 In the heart of the hippie movement, and he's kind 249 00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:16.159 of like a transient hobo kind of a character, and 250 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:18.600 all of a sudden he's welcomed and there's these communes, 251 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:21.639 and there's these hippies, and there's free sex, and there's 252 00:14:21.720 --> 00:14:24.000 drugs and there's party, you know, and and and he 253 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:26.000 build into that full on. You know, he was he 254 00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:28.279 was a huge part of all of that, and he 255 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:33.240 was initially he wanted to be a musician, that's what he. 256 00:14:34.200 --> 00:14:36.559 Creepy Krpus taught him how to play guitar from the 257 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:40.519 Maul Barker Gang, which I think is another Canadian connection, 258 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:43.440 and so he you know, he really thought he had 259 00:14:43.480 --> 00:14:45.360 something and he could do this music thing, and so 260 00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:47.679 he got out and he ended up being associated with 261 00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:51.600 the Beach Boys and writing a couple of songs with them. 262 00:14:51.799 --> 00:14:54.039 He was friend with Neil Young. He told that Neil 263 00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:58.240 Young gave a motorcycle once Frank Zappa Jim Morris, and 264 00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:00.320 he said Jim was a good kid. He's trying to 265 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:03.720 do his own thing, the Birds. It's like all of 266 00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:07.080 those people. He was, you know, one of those kind 267 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:08.879 of musicians. And then all of a sudden things start 268 00:15:08.919 --> 00:15:12.279 falling apart, and you have a guy who's getting messages 269 00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:17.559 from the Beatles record you know, the Beatles. He's believes 270 00:15:17.600 --> 00:15:21.159 he's Jesus Christ. He thinks there's a race war uppending 271 00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:25.679 race war happening. He he's paranoid. He goes and hides 272 00:15:25.720 --> 00:15:27.679 out in the desert. You know, he starts digging all 273 00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:30.720 to the center of the earth or whatever like that. 274 00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:35.600 That sounds like some serious mental health problems. You know, 275 00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:37.720 it doesn't doesn't add up. And then you look at 276 00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:41.039 the like these people are all petty thieves. It's the 277 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:44.639 family or whatever, right, and and so they're stealing these 278 00:15:44.679 --> 00:15:47.120 cars and stripping them down and making doing buggies and 279 00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:51.399 doing credit card fraud and breaking into houses and you know, 280 00:15:51.480 --> 00:15:55.440 all this kind of stuff, and they're just they're they're 281 00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:59.720 doing like Charlie told me, they they're when they're at 282 00:15:59.720 --> 00:16:03.720 the they were doing all these robberies, and they'd a 283 00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:06.320 lot of the he liked. He likes flying ars and 284 00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:08.320 paintings and stuff like this. So they have they'd be 285 00:16:08.360 --> 00:16:10.639 living in these shacks that should be condemned, and they'd 286 00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:13.840 have like, you know, two hundred thousand dollars worth of 287 00:16:13.919 --> 00:16:17.759 art hanging on the walls, or he'd he stole a 288 00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:20.320 bunch of I want to say, Angela Lansbury. But I 289 00:16:20.360 --> 00:16:22.200 might be wrong, but I think that's who it was. 290 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:26.559 They broke into some Hollywood actress and stole a bunch 291 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:29.120 of fur coats and glued him onto a dune buggy, 292 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:31.559 so it looked like a living animal, you know, and 293 00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:35.519 he'd drive this thing around. And so he recalls those 294 00:16:35.559 --> 00:16:37.759 kind of days and events, you know, pretty clearly, because 295 00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:39.639 that you know, that was the last time he was out. 296 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:43.200 But I think there's so much chaos and so much disorder, 297 00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:46.320 and everyone was so messed up. And I really, I 298 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:48.679 honestly believe if you were to question every one of them, 299 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:51.440 you get I don't think anybody really knows what happened, 300 00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:55.919 you know, I And I think that's part of the 301 00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:59.120 fascination of the whole story. 302 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:02.039 Yeah, you you you do a good job of at 303 00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:06.200 least stating that sort of argument and without going into 304 00:17:06.200 --> 00:17:09.079 it too much, because really you could spend four hundred 305 00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:12.279 pages on that. You know, you really are refuting what 306 00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:15.519 Bulagosi said. Of course he's got to take something to 307 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:17.960 the jury, and we got to think it's nineteen sixty 308 00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:21.519 nine too, and just it's a hysteric time anyway, you know, 309 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:24.720 full of hysteria. And they need to have some closure 310 00:17:24.759 --> 00:17:28.680 on this really quickly rather than later. And he becomes 311 00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:30.599 this again. He spent most of his life in prison, 312 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:33.680 so he's a pretty good scapegoat, but you portray him 313 00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:34.319 as something. 314 00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:39.240 Step into the world of power, loyalty and luck. I'm 315 00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:41.599 going to make him an offer you can't refuse. With 316 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:46.480 family canoli's and spins mean everything. Now you want to 317 00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:50.519 get mixed up in the family business. 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But 330 00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:19.839 if you want to hone in on those winning moves, 331 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:23.160 check out Chumbuck Casino at chumbacasino dot com. Choose from 332 00:18:23.240 --> 00:18:25.839 hundreds of social casino style games for your chance to 333 00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:29.640 redeem serious cash prize. There are new game releases weekly, 334 00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:32.599 plus free daily bonuses, so don't wait. Start having the 335 00:18:32.599 --> 00:18:35.400 most fun ever at Chumba Casino dot com. 336 00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:36.920 No, we're not necessary dvodmember. 337 00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:38.440 If I lost the terms conditions eighteen. 338 00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:41.720 Plus, buddy, that that you know again, just what you've described. 339 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:45.640 He's not a mastermind. No, let's not. Let's put that aside. 340 00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:48.680 And and he fell into things and and then that, 341 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:51.839 And that's what I wanted to get from from this too, 342 00:18:51.880 --> 00:18:55.400 That you did speak to him about his philosophy. You 343 00:18:55.599 --> 00:19:00.279 even have a chapter called Polanski, so he you do 344 00:19:00.359 --> 00:19:03.000 give him the freedom to make some comments. But I 345 00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:05.759 think for people who are listening to this, it is 346 00:19:05.799 --> 00:19:09.279 sort of if I'm not correct, maybe it is sort 347 00:19:09.319 --> 00:19:12.079 of a version of Eastern philosophy in a lot of ways. 348 00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:16.720 Lots of stuff that we're talking about. Now, how did 349 00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:20.880 you you you did eventually get around to visiting Charles Manson, 350 00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:23.279 So tell us a little bit how the circumstances that 351 00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:25.039 you had to go through to be able to do that. 352 00:19:27.079 --> 00:19:31.599 Okay, Well me, I again, like I didn't think that 353 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:35.599 was going to happen. And the first time I attempted 354 00:19:35.640 --> 00:19:39.599 to get in. I was kind of stopped at the 355 00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:42.640 you know, the front desk, and they said, you know, 356 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:44.920 my application was pending. They were I was waiting for 357 00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:47.519 my criminal check to go through. And this had been 358 00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:49.880 like after waiting for eight months already kind of thing, 359 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:52.400 so it totally didn't look look like it was going 360 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:55.480 to happen. And I was directed to contact the ord 361 00:19:55.480 --> 00:19:58.240 and in writing, and once I did that, all of 362 00:19:58.279 --> 00:20:00.319 a sudden, you know, everything kind of turned around, and 363 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:03.000 then I was approved. And even going in to meet him, 364 00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:05.960 I was told that, you know, don't get your hopes 365 00:20:06.039 --> 00:20:08.000 up kind of thing. He often doesn't go to the 366 00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:10.119 visiting room. And I had known that he hadn't seen 367 00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:13.319 anybody in over a year at that point. He wasn't, 368 00:20:13.359 --> 00:20:13.880 you know, and. 369 00:20:13.799 --> 00:20:16.400 So I was a little skeptical if he would actually. 370 00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:18.440 Come out, you know kind of thing. But yeah, it all, 371 00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:19.720 it all kind of came together. 372 00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:25.079 So and and what was it like describe the actual visit. 373 00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:31.119 I'd been talking to him on the phone for a while, 374 00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:34.519 so it was kind of, you know, we knew each 375 00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:37.039 other kind of thing. So it wasn't you know, like 376 00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:40.400 just walking into an empty room and being confronted with 377 00:20:40.519 --> 00:20:42.519 Charles Manson. I was kind of prepared for it, but 378 00:20:43.400 --> 00:20:46.559 as soon as you see the guys, it's a little intense, 379 00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:48.680 Like even though he is seventy six years old, he 380 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:51.960 still has that kind of energy and aura about him, right. 381 00:20:52.039 --> 00:20:55.160 And when I was directed into the visiting room, he 382 00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:57.279 was already there and he was setting up a table 383 00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:00.759 and he had a chess table set out, chess board, 384 00:21:01.640 --> 00:21:03.680 and I don't know how to play chess at. 385 00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:03.960 All, so. 386 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.920 And I think I must have looked a little shocked 387 00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:10.720 or a little intense or whatever, because he tried to 388 00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:12.519 kind of put me at ease, and you know, he's 389 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:16.880 just you know, speaking, you know, pleasantries and just being 390 00:21:16.920 --> 00:21:18.880 general like how was your trip and how you know, 391 00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:21.960 how you like in California kind of thing. And once 392 00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:25.720 we're kind of calmed down, and and you know, I 393 00:21:25.799 --> 00:21:27.960 was sitting, he stood up and he put the chair 394 00:21:28.039 --> 00:21:30.720 behind him, and then he started screaming as loud as 395 00:21:30.759 --> 00:21:34.839 he could, and he started he's doing this whole thing 396 00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:38.079 around a bank robbery. And she's like, I said, don't, 397 00:21:38.119 --> 00:21:41.480 I'll kill you, you know. And as soon as he started, 398 00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:43.759 there were there's two guards in the center of the 399 00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:46.359 room and it's like like a kiosk kind of thing, 400 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:49.160 and they were like totally ready to come over. And 401 00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:50.960