WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:04.639 You're listening to WGSNDB Go and Solo Network Singles talk 2 00:00:04.759 --> 00:00:08.160 radio channel, where we take a lighthearted and candidate approach 3 00:00:08.279 --> 00:00:12.199 to discussions on the journey of relationship, laws, divorce, parenting, 4 00:00:12.519 --> 00:00:17.600 being single, relationships, building, dating, and yes sex. Join our 5 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:23.359 listeners and begin living your best life. 6 00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:31.879 So hello and welcome to our show here on WGSNDB, 7 00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:35.880 The Going Bold and Going Solo Networks. This episode of 8 00:00:35.920 --> 00:00:40.719 The Awakening Podcast may contain frank discussions on sensitive topics, 9 00:00:41.039 --> 00:00:45.719 including abuse and sex trafficking. Content may not be suitable 10 00:00:45.840 --> 00:00:49.439 for young children and could be triggering for some listeners. 11 00:00:49.880 --> 00:00:54.159 We cover explicit details to provide comprehensive understanding of these 12 00:00:54.200 --> 00:00:59.159 important issues. The information and the opinions that are expressed 13 00:00:59.159 --> 00:01:03.520 on this show are the personal views of the individual 14 00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:07.840 speaking based on their own experiences. They are not intended 15 00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:14.040 to diagnose or provide professional advice or recommendations. Listener discretion 16 00:01:14.319 --> 00:01:19.519 is advised. So my guest today is Michelle Ferris. Michelle 17 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:26.560 is a psychotherapist, codependency expert, and anger management specialist with 18 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:31.439 a passion for helping people break free from toxic relationships. 19 00:01:32.120 --> 00:01:39.040 Michelle's YouTube channel has over three million viewers. Where she's 20 00:01:39.239 --> 00:01:45.480 known for her practical tips and expertise. She's written several 21 00:01:45.519 --> 00:01:51.359 ebooks and courses for creating relationships at work. I kind 22 00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:55.239 of lost my place where I was at. Michelle can 23 00:01:55.359 --> 00:01:59.439 often be found with a Vente latte sitting right next 24 00:01:59.439 --> 00:02:02.799 to her desk as she works on her next course. 25 00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:06.840 So welcome and thank you for joining me here today, Michelle. 26 00:02:06.760 --> 00:02:08.840 Thanks so much for having me, Tina. I'm really looking 27 00:02:08.840 --> 00:02:09.400 forward to it. 28 00:02:10.439 --> 00:02:14.560 Very good. I pushed my little clock and it didn't push. 29 00:02:14.680 --> 00:02:18.000 I pushed the wrong button. So here we go. So 30 00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:23.199 we're talking today on specific topics. So I'm just going 31 00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:25.680 to turn that over to you. So tell me your story. 32 00:02:26.159 --> 00:02:31.599 Sure. So I always knew I was codependent, and that's 33 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:35.199 part of why I became a therapist. And at twenty 34 00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:38.520 one I started going into twelve step programs around my 35 00:02:38.520 --> 00:02:42.240 food addiction. And oh about seven years later, I realized 36 00:02:42.280 --> 00:02:46.719 I was super codependent and literally I would do backflips 37 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:49.719 to get in relationships with women like friendships. I was 38 00:02:49.759 --> 00:02:53.280 always looking for that next person. I would pay for them. 39 00:02:53.639 --> 00:02:56.159 I would be the one doing most of the calling. 40 00:02:57.000 --> 00:03:00.639 I really was super needy, and I got into recovery 41 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:03.879 and I found and I don't know, you probably agree, 42 00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:06.240 but you know, back in the late eighties, there wasn't 43 00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:08.479 a I mean, there was a lot going on in 44 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:11.439 the recovery field, but there wasn't a lot of specific 45 00:03:12.240 --> 00:03:16.800 like in codependency recovery do this, And so I was 46 00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:20.479 kind of lost and had to find my way and 47 00:03:21.800 --> 00:03:24.400 I finally felt like, okay, I was doing allen on. 48 00:03:25.240 --> 00:03:28.879 I started doing it in my practice because I really 49 00:03:28.919 --> 00:03:32.919 find that most people have some traits that can be 50 00:03:33.080 --> 00:03:36.879 really problematic. And about ten years ago, I had a 51 00:03:36.919 --> 00:03:40.280 friendship crash and burned totally out of the blue, and 52 00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:45.039 it made me hit another bottom and I realized, holy crap, 53 00:03:45.080 --> 00:03:48.800 I got addicted to somebody again. And it was actually 54 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:51.520 the best thing that ever happened in my recovery because 55 00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:54.919 it made me realize what my missing piece was, which 56 00:03:55.479 --> 00:03:58.520 isn't really talked about much, which is the relationship you 57 00:03:58.599 --> 00:04:01.960 have with yourself, not just self esteem. Right. I mean, 58 00:04:02.039 --> 00:04:05.960 sure we all need help with that, but like the 59 00:04:06.039 --> 00:04:10.639 root of codependency is forming unhealthy dependencies, in putting someone 60 00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:14.000 else's needs above our own because we want their love 61 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:16.839 and approval and don't have any other way to get it. 62 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:21.759 So This can be, of course, super problematic because you're 63 00:04:21.800 --> 00:04:26.600 probably attracting alcoholics, narcissists, people who are more self centered 64 00:04:26.600 --> 00:04:30.279 because we're self less, so it ends up becoming sort 65 00:04:30.279 --> 00:04:32.399 of a perfect dysfunctional match. 66 00:04:33.879 --> 00:04:36.519 Yes, and you know, I work with a lot of 67 00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:41.680 my clients that are not just codependent, but they're they've 68 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:46.519 got a toxic relationship. They'll leave, yeah, get a people 69 00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:48.519 of breasthts in, and then they go back in for 70 00:04:48.680 --> 00:04:51.600 more and so interesting enough that you say that you 71 00:04:51.639 --> 00:04:56.319 were in AA type of work, because that's exactly how 72 00:04:56.360 --> 00:04:59.279 I explain to my clients what needs to be done. 73 00:04:59.319 --> 00:05:01.920 They need to to get a sponsor. They need like 74 00:05:02.319 --> 00:05:07.439 three sponsors so that when they're crazy, that that right 75 00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:12.240 person that they can call somebody else and say, hey, yep, 76 00:05:12.839 --> 00:05:15.000 I'm really wanting to go back to them or whatever 77 00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:15.639 that looks like. 78 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:19.079 Yeah, And I think there's so much shame attached to 79 00:05:19.160 --> 00:05:22.040 our dependency issues that we tend not to want to 80 00:05:22.120 --> 00:05:25.959 talk about it, and so we just immediately revert back. 81 00:05:26.040 --> 00:05:30.040 Because a lot of people in codependency are people addicts, 82 00:05:30.079 --> 00:05:33.519 their relationship addicts, so they don't really see themselves as 83 00:05:33.560 --> 00:05:38.079 being able to survive successfully by themselves and that's the 84 00:05:38.120 --> 00:05:40.279 tipping point. Like for me, I didn't do it in 85 00:05:40.279 --> 00:05:42.879 my romantic relationships as much as I did with my 86 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:45.600 female friends, but I had to get to the point 87 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:48.519 where I realized, oh my god, like, I can't put 88 00:05:48.560 --> 00:05:51.639 that other person ahead of my own myself, right, I 89 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:55.319 have to have a solid foundation. And this was after 90 00:05:55.399 --> 00:05:59.519 twenty years of recovery. So you know, codependency is very 91 00:05:59.639 --> 00:06:02.720 humble and it's not something to be taken lightly. 92 00:06:05.079 --> 00:06:07.639 No, until we're talking. I mean even when we talked 93 00:06:07.639 --> 00:06:10.040 the first time, I didn't realize that we talked about 94 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:14.560 the codependency, that your codependency was on friendship. Yeah, and 95 00:06:15.399 --> 00:06:18.519 as I'm listening to you talk, I don't feel at 96 00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:22.720 all that I have that part in my life. But 97 00:06:22.879 --> 00:06:27.800 I definitely have a codependency for having somebody to be 98 00:06:27.959 --> 00:06:32.759 with me, not necessarily romantically, but it usually ends up 99 00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:37.759 that way. And I see that with having my divorce 100 00:06:37.839 --> 00:06:40.199 twenty three years ago and the men the long term 101 00:06:40.240 --> 00:06:43.519 relationships that I had, and I would bounce from one 102 00:06:43.560 --> 00:06:45.319 and go to another, and bounce from that and go 103 00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:51.079 to another, and then here my husband died, and shortly 104 00:06:51.160 --> 00:06:54.920 after that I wanted a roommate, I wanted somebody that 105 00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:56.560 was here to like a talk, and. 106 00:06:58.040 --> 00:07:02.240 It was just crazy, right well, yeah, because it's really 107 00:07:02.360 --> 00:07:05.639 and sorry for your loss, because that is really, really hard, 108 00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:10.439 and yet when you add codepenancy to it, it feels 109 00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:14.920 like you're going to fall apart without having that other person. 110 00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:19.800 And that's where you know, looking at our relationships and 111 00:07:20.079 --> 00:07:23.759 assessing whether or not they're healthy can be a challenging. 112 00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:28.360 Process, definitely. And I would say that my roommate and 113 00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:33.720 my relationship is probably not a healthy one because I 114 00:07:33.759 --> 00:07:38.839 took over the household needs that he and it is 115 00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:41.720 a he would want. I do the laundry, I do 116 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:45.759 most of the cooking, you know, And for me, that's 117 00:07:45.800 --> 00:07:50.240 what I felt I needed for me because if I 118 00:07:50.279 --> 00:07:52.680 wasn't doing it for somebody else, I definitely wasn't doing 119 00:07:52.720 --> 00:07:54.360 it for me. And what was I mean for me? 120 00:07:55.120 --> 00:07:57.959 I said on the couch with what a six pack 121 00:07:58.199 --> 00:08:02.279 or twelve pack of beer? And that's not healthy on 122 00:08:02.399 --> 00:08:04.800 any level, right right? 123 00:08:04.920 --> 00:08:06.680 Well, And you bring up a good point because a 124 00:08:06.680 --> 00:08:10.160 lot of people who are in codependency recovery have addiction 125 00:08:10.360 --> 00:08:17.079 issues where we might have beer, wine, junk food, you know, 126 00:08:17.560 --> 00:08:20.000 things like that. Because we don't want to feel our 127 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:24.040 feelings because there's so much pain in abandonment there because 128 00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:27.920 we usually people who are codependent become that way in 129 00:08:27.959 --> 00:08:31.759 their childhood because their needs weren't met, they weren't validated 130 00:08:31.800 --> 00:08:36.399 as kids. So instead of mom, you know, my sister 131 00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:39.360 is hitting me, Mom isn't going to say, oh my god, 132 00:08:39.399 --> 00:08:42.799 I'm going to handle that. Mom's going to say deal 133 00:08:42.840 --> 00:08:45.720 with it on your own, or you're being too sensitive, 134 00:08:46.039 --> 00:08:48.799 so you're not going to get that validation that your 135 00:08:48.840 --> 00:08:52.000 reality is true. And that really messes us up. 136 00:08:53.679 --> 00:08:58.279 Yes, I can. You know, I look back over not 137 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:01.840 so much my childhood but my coing skills with my 138 00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:05.639 kids and I recently, I don't know, maybe it was 139 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:07.440 just because I knew we were going to be talking 140 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:12.919 about codependency, but I looked back over my relationships early on, 141 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:15.559 like right out of high school. I was a very 142 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:19.039 strong female right at that point. I was going in 143 00:09:19.159 --> 00:09:22.919 flying places all by myself and doing things. And I 144 00:09:23.039 --> 00:09:25.480 come from a farm where that just wasn't the normal 145 00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:29.360 thing to do. And I went all over the US 146 00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:32.919 for a little while after I graduated, because I had school, 147 00:09:32.960 --> 00:09:36.000 I went and got married, I flew across to Germany, 148 00:09:36.039 --> 00:09:38.200 lived in Germany, and I was doing all of those things. 149 00:09:38.279 --> 00:09:42.559 And then later after I divorced or being in that 150 00:09:42.639 --> 00:09:48.919 abuse of relationship is when that codependency part kicked in. 151 00:09:49.159 --> 00:09:52.919 And I even noticed it in my late husbands in 152 00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:57.200 mys relationship where I would ask, so, where do you 153 00:09:57.200 --> 00:09:59.759 want to eat? And I was never going to tell 154 00:09:59.799 --> 00:10:02.000 him where I wanted to eat. It always had to 155 00:10:02.039 --> 00:10:05.080 do with where he wanted to eat. And so finally 156 00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:06.720 I said, Okay, this is the way we'll do it. 157 00:10:07.320 --> 00:10:12.080 I'll ask what, you tell me what, and I'll say where, 158 00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:13.720 or we'd switch it back and forth. 159 00:10:13.799 --> 00:10:17.639 Uh huh oh that's clever. Yeah, well, that's a lot 160 00:10:17.679 --> 00:10:21.039 of codependency recovery is learning to get in touch with 161 00:10:21.200 --> 00:10:23.960 your wants, your needs without feeling guilty about them. 162 00:10:24.679 --> 00:10:29.679 M I have a course that I work with with 163 00:10:29.799 --> 00:10:34.440 my clients after the divorce that's called here First. And 164 00:10:34.519 --> 00:10:37.759 I don't recommend that they if they want to start dating, 165 00:10:37.799 --> 00:10:41.399 I don't recommend that they date for at least six months, 166 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:44.399 you know, not even get out there. And then we 167 00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:48.919 go out on dates with ourself, you know, need at 168 00:10:48.919 --> 00:10:51.759 a restaurant alone. Because these are the things I. 169 00:10:51.799 --> 00:10:57.159 Asked with yes, totally those Yeah, I totally agree. I 170 00:10:57.200 --> 00:11:00.399 think most people if they took six months to year 171 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:04.639 to not date, to grieve the relationship, to work out 172 00:11:04.720 --> 00:11:08.000 what's unfinished, because let's face it, even in a year, 173 00:11:08.039 --> 00:11:09.919 you're not going to do it all, but at least 174 00:11:09.960 --> 00:11:13.360 you're gonna hopefully get back to center after doing that 175 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:15.799 amount of grief work. And I think a lot of 176 00:11:15.799 --> 00:11:19.000 people don't do that, especially when you're codependant. You just 177 00:11:19.039 --> 00:11:22.120 glob on to the next person, hoping to get the 178 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:25.240 love you can't give to yourself, which is why it's 179 00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:27.919 really hard to stop this pattern because we don't see 180 00:11:27.919 --> 00:11:31.759 a need to be alone and the value of that. 181 00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:34.600 And I didn't either until my friend ghosted me, and 182 00:11:34.639 --> 00:11:38.840 then I realized, holy crap, I have got to be 183 00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:42.919 okay in my own skin, truly, and it changed everything 184 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:46.600 for me because now, like if I've noticed, I've started 185 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:49.279 a few friendships in the last few years, and a 186 00:11:49.279 --> 00:11:52.360 few of them have fallen away because that's normal and natural. 187 00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:55.240 You're not going to necessarily have everyone forever. And I'm 188 00:11:55.279 --> 00:11:58.799 totally okay with it because I don't rely anymore on 189 00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:03.320 that other person to feed me emotionally. It's more like, yeah, 190 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:05.679 you know what, this is part of life. Some friends 191 00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:08.320 are going to come and go, and that's okay. But 192 00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:13.080 when we overly attach ourselves, thinking we can't live without 193 00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:16.120 this person, whether it's you know, your mother, your boyfriend, 194 00:12:16.120 --> 00:12:19.799 your husband, your friend, your coworker, whoever, that your child, 195 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:21.879 your adult child. I mean a lot of people are 196 00:12:21.919 --> 00:12:26.399 codependent with their adult children. But that's really the secret 197 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:30.639 of codependency recovery is to really be able to have 198 00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:35.559 that centeredness within yourself so that you can choose a 199 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:39.279 relationship not feel compelled to stay in one, no matter 200 00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:40.320 how unhealthy it is. 201 00:12:41.399 --> 00:12:45.000 Right, it took me a long time to even allow 202 00:12:45.159 --> 00:12:48.799 friendships in with different totally opposite from what you're saying. 203 00:12:49.639 --> 00:12:53.200 I had friends, I just didn't call them friends. They 204 00:12:53.200 --> 00:12:56.840 were acquaintances to me, huh, And I kept them at 205 00:12:56.960 --> 00:12:59.919 arm's length. And I don't know why. Listening to you talk, 206 00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:02.480 I'm like, the only thing I can think of is 207 00:13:02.559 --> 00:13:07.799 back in high school, middle school, there was a situation 208 00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:11.399 in one of the girls that was considered my best 209 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:19.440 friends totally ghosted me then, and she refuses to talk 210 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:22.840 to any of us from our class. Oh so that 211 00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:25.799 is a her thing that wasn't a me thing, but 212 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:28.600 it's the only thing I can as I am to 213 00:13:28.679 --> 00:13:32.519 you talk that I can connect that with well. 214 00:13:32.559 --> 00:13:37.440 And that's really disconcerting because when somebody leaves without saying 215 00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:41.200 a word, even when it's a childhood friendship right or relationship, 216 00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:46.720 it can be so shocking to us because as teens, 217 00:13:45.960 --> 00:13:52.679 our friends are everything. Can you hear my dog? 218 00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:57.200 No? I can't. I can't. Oh good, doing good? So yes, 219 00:13:57.639 --> 00:14:01.080 And I don't think that I really you know, this 220 00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:04.799 incident was is that I took alcohol to school and 221 00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:09.039 to make friends, and and then I turned to all 222 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:11.720 the girls that had a sip of it in and 223 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:14.279 so nobody talked to me for that next year. And 224 00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:18.000 this one girl just totally she she's like I said, 225 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:21.320 she goes to the whole school. Yeah, nobody, even her 226 00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:24.279 family says. She doesn't talk much, if at all to them. 227 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:24.919 HU. 228 00:14:25.559 --> 00:14:31.240 So it's just kind of interesting. But yet my kindergarten 229 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:33.480 best friend is still in my life. We're still best 230 00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:36.879 friends and love and all the friends that I've made 231 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:40.679 basically since then, all of the friendships have stayed it 232 00:14:40.840 --> 00:14:46.039 except for one that I am so okay with him 233 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:47.840 taking his own place in the world. 234 00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:52.080 Yeah. Yeah, Well that's part of recovery too, is really 235 00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:56.480 continuing to assess, you know, is this relationship working is 236 00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:59.679 it not? Are you doing eighty percent of the work right, 237 00:14:59.720 --> 00:15:03.159 because that's always a telltale sign of a codependent relationship 238 00:15:03.159 --> 00:15:07.200 where you're doing all the texting, you're doing all the helping, supporting, 239 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:10.159 but when you need something, they're nowhere to be found 240 00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:13.080 or they're very you know, there may they may have 241 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:17.639 some willingness, but they're now used to the relationship being 242 00:15:17.720 --> 00:15:22.200 more about serving their needs than being mutually satisfying. 243 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:26.080 M And I go back to one friend that I 244 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:28.639 did have in high school, and she was when I 245 00:15:28.720 --> 00:15:30.840 called a friend, but it was her brother who was 246 00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:34.600 really my best friend. And she was just like that, 247 00:15:34.759 --> 00:15:36.759 in order to have her friendship, you had to do 248 00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:40.200 all the work, yeah, to the point that she wanted 249 00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:42.440 to go out, and her mom would say, well, you 250 00:15:42.559 --> 00:15:45.879 have to do you have to finish the laundry or whatever. 251 00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:50.159 So she didn't put you over what why you did that? 252 00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:51.320 Oh man? 253 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:54.879 She would say, I'm busy with I'm busy with some homework. 254 00:15:54.919 --> 00:15:57.519 If you'll do that for me, and I will back 255 00:15:57.559 --> 00:16:01.919 over that And she has no friend, she has no friends, 256 00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:07.600 you know, and so and in my world, I did 257 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:10.559 a lot of work with my friends, but I also 258 00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:13.720 expected some of that and I've been in the space 259 00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:19.080 I'm like, Okay, I've paid for dinner the last three time. Yeah. Yeah, 260 00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:22.200 and now this one is love it all on you? 261 00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:26.320 Yep, yep. Well see, that's what most codependent people don't do, 262 00:16:26.440 --> 00:16:29.799 is they won't speak up. They will feel that hurt 263 00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:35.000 I'm paying right, and then they'll hope the other person notices, 264 00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:38.720 and then they just wait and wait and wait, and 265 00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:41.600 then that resentment gets worse and worse over time because 266 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:44.799 we're not honest with how we feel. And I get it. 267 00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:48.000 I mean I used to stuff my feelings too, especially anger. 268 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:52.120 But what you're doing is exactly what I would have 269 00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:55.000 people do. Is you know what, this isn't working for me? 270 00:16:55.399 --> 00:16:59.000 You know? Can you let's take turns? You know, because 271 00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:02.000 if the other person flips out about that, that's a 272 00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:05.759 really good sign, because yes, it's a bummer, but they're 273 00:17:05.759 --> 00:17:09.880 telling you exactly who they are if they cannot give 274 00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:13.640 to you in any real way, or they feel threatened 275 00:17:13.720 --> 00:17:16.680 by you calling them on their behavior because maybe they're 276 00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:20.319 gaslighting you or maybe they're not treating you. Well, that's 277 00:17:20.440 --> 00:17:24.240 really important information that we have to assess and decide 278 00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:27.440 what do we want at this point, because those are 279 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:30.400 toxic behaviors that we really need to pay attention to. 280 00:17:31.400 --> 00:17:34.880 Yes, because now we're coming into my field. That's the 281 00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:37.319 vercissistic abuser right there. 282 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:37.680 Yep. 283 00:17:37.880 --> 00:17:40.359 And when when you were talking, you know, we go 284 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:43.440 back and forth about this who's paying thing? When they 285 00:17:43.559 --> 00:17:48.640 just use you and use you, then they're obviously that 286 00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:51.519 abusive and you speaking up isn't going to make a difference, 287 00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:55.480 right you speaking up will probably make them ghost you 288 00:17:55.640 --> 00:17:58.440 or leave you in the dust somewhere, which is a 289 00:17:58.599 --> 00:18:00.839 gift for right. 290 00:18:01.400 --> 00:18:05.720 So yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I totally agree. But you know, 291 00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:09.279 there are ways you can detach and take better care 292 00:18:09.319 --> 00:18:12.279 of yourself, but you need a support system because getting 293 00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:15.480 out of a toxic relationship by yourself without any resources 294 00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:19.559 is really really really hard, too hard for people to 295 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:19.960 want to get it. 296 00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:23.279 I would say it's almost impossible. I agree that could 297 00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:25.240 do that. It's less than one percent. 298 00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:27.279 Right, Well, and that's why you do the work you do. 299 00:18:27.400 --> 00:18:30.160 I do the work I do because people need support 300 00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:32.680 to say, you know what, I got to transfer that 301 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:36.720 dependency and use it in a more constructive way by 302 00:18:36.799 --> 00:18:38.559 focusing on our growth. 303 00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:44.279 Right, right, So let's talk more about your dependency and 304 00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:48.680 when you realized it was an issue. 305 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:50.359 So well, I always sort of in the background of 306 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:52.000 my life, even as a kid. I knew it was 307 00:18:52.039 --> 00:18:55.200 an issue, but with the friendship, I didn't realize it 308 00:18:55.319 --> 00:18:58.119 till after the friendship ended, and then I had to 309 00:18:58.119 --> 00:19:00.839 go back. And one of the things I caught, which 310 00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:04.359 was super important, was one of the first things she 311 00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:08.839 said that I didn't register was I don't like a 312 00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:13.200 lot of regular contact with people. And I was like, huh. 313 00:19:13.720 --> 00:19:16.240 So the one thing I did with that is that 314 00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:18.599 I made sure that I called her. She called me, 315 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:24.039 so it was pretty even Stephen, But she said that, 316 00:19:24.200 --> 00:19:27.960 and I never did anything with it. And fast forward 317 00:19:28.039 --> 00:19:30.559 to the end of the friendship. She really didn't want 318 00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:36.680 as much contacts as she was actually doing. And that's 319 00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:40.200 the red flag we get early on that could if 320 00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:41.960 I would have went back and said, Okay, great, what 321 00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:44.000 does that look like to you, And if she would 322 00:19:44.039 --> 00:19:46.559 have said, oh, once or twice a month, boom, I 323 00:19:46.599 --> 00:19:49.200 would have been like cool, great, I would have totally 324 00:19:49.240 --> 00:19:51.240 done that. I had enough recovery at that point to 325 00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:55.519 do it. But I didn't. I didn't want to go there. 326 00:19:55.720 --> 00:19:58.119 I was hoping that because she kept calling me a 327 00:19:58.119 --> 00:20:01.519 couple times a week, it was okay, hey, and you know, 328 00:20:01.599 --> 00:20:05.240 at face value, I couldn't have known any different. But 329 00:20:05.720 --> 00:20:09.000 I think people tell us early on who they are. 330 00:20:09.720 --> 00:20:10.920 We just need to pay. 331 00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:15.480 Attention, right right. I have two girlfriends, and I'm I'm 332 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:19.039 one that doesn't like talking on the phone with a 333 00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:23.599 friend every day. Yeah, And so I have this one 334 00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:27.319 girl that and she's one of my best friends, and 335 00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:30.559 she wants or has in the past, wanted to talk 336 00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:33.640 every single day, every single It was just it was 337 00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:35.880 a lot to the point that I would like, oh, 338 00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:41.039 I have, you know, silenced the calls because I'm like, 339 00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:44.680 I'm super busy. I need to get this project done 340 00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:47.559 before I talk to anybody anyway. And then I have 341 00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:51.200 another friend who's who's more like what you say, you 342 00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:54.000 were doing all the work in our relationship. I've had 343 00:20:54.039 --> 00:20:59.079 to diller to stop. You are doing too much in 344 00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:02.039 this relationship for you. I mean, it feels wonderful for me, 345 00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:05.599 but I'm not able to reciprocate. 346 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:06.960 That, yeah, because it's too much. 347 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:09.880 Yeah, and she doesn't want to talk. We do talk 348 00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:14.359 once a week generally, as long as I've got free 349 00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:17.720 time at a set time that we have for every week. 350 00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:22.480 And it's about supporting each other. And that's why the 351 00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:23.759 friendship works. 352 00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:28.640 Right right well, and you're speaking up, and that's where 353 00:21:28.839 --> 00:21:31.880 if somebody is in a relationship, like if a listener 354 00:21:31.960 --> 00:21:34.599 right now is in a relationship with someone who's codependent, 355 00:21:35.079 --> 00:21:37.319 one thing you can do is speak up about it. 356 00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:40.960 But you also have to remember that when we call 357 00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:43.880 the codependent out and say, you know, I notice these 358 00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:47.920 things that you're doing, they may not have a good reaction. 359 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:50.640 They may get super heard, they may feel like you're 360 00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:54.599 attacking them. But again, if they don't come back and say, hmm, 361 00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:57.599 you know what, let me think about that, then that's 362 00:21:57.640 --> 00:22:00.640 a warning sign that they may not be ready to change. 363 00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:02.920 And that's okay, but then you're a choice for what 364 00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:03.599 you do next. 365 00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:09.440 Yes, yes, And a good example, as you're talking, I'm 366 00:22:09.480 --> 00:22:12.359 seeing this and I'm I don't. I can't say his name, 367 00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:15.079 so we're maybe yes, you can get it. But it's 368 00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:20.119 on the big Bang theory, it is the one young 369 00:22:20.200 --> 00:22:23.799 man that's living with his mother that is definitely a 370 00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:27.160 codependent relationship from the mother to the son and the 371 00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:27.960 son to the mother. 372 00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:30.000 Okay, I haven't seen it. 373 00:22:30.599 --> 00:22:34.960 Oh yeah, it's they live together and there are adults, 374 00:22:35.160 --> 00:22:38.440 and she won't let him like he in this last 375 00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:42.400 set last show, he was he gets a chance to 376 00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:46.519 go to the space station and she let him. She's 377 00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:48.799 refusing to allow him to go to the space station, 378 00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:52.759 you know, and here he is. He's like in his 379 00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:56.759 early thirties or so. Oh no, yes, and it's like 380 00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:00.720 but as you're talking, that's definitely and it's like as 381 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:04.200 last name as like horror Witz or something like that. Okay, yeah, 382 00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:09.000 it's just as you're talking, that is definitely really loud. 383 00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:12.000 So for those of you watching that, you scratch your 384 00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:13.960 head and go, I don't know anybody like that. That 385 00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:17.759 show and his relationship with his mom definitely show that. 386 00:23:18.599 --> 00:23:21.359 Yeah. Well, and that's really common. I mean a lot 387 00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:24.799 of adult kids and their moms especially, there can be 388 00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:29.240 some codependent tendencies, especially when the mom looks to their 389 00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:34.519 kid for validation for you know, I'm a good mom, 390 00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:36.720 I'm a good person. This is what I did with 391 00:23:36.759 --> 00:23:39.519 my life, and you know, I think every mom has 392 00:23:39.559 --> 00:23:44.119 a little of that, But it's really dicey when we 393 00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:48.160 look to our child for our self esteem, because it 394 00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:51.200 never works. It always creates an undue burden on the 395 00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:53.720 child and they pick up on that and they don't 396 00:23:53.720 --> 00:23:55.640 know what to do with it, and sometimes they don't 397 00:23:55.640 --> 00:23:57.920 even have words for it because if they're young, right, 398 00:23:58.359 --> 00:24:01.200 they don't know what's happening. Know, it doesn't feel right. 399 00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:05.119 Yeah, And I see that in my work as a 400 00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:10.759 co parent co parenting coach, is that I see that 401 00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:18.480