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Speaker 2: So hello and welcome to our show here on WGSNDB,
Speaker 2: The Going Bold and Going Solo Networks. This episode of
Speaker 2: The Awakening Podcast may contain frank discussions on sensitive topics,
Speaker 2: including abuse and sex trafficking. Content may not be suitable
Speaker 2: for young children and could be triggering for some listeners.
Speaker 2: We cover explicit details to provide comprehensive understanding of these
Speaker 2: important issues. The information and the opinions that are expressed
Speaker 2: on this show are the personal views of the individual
Speaker 2: speaking based on their own experiences. They are not intended
Speaker 2: to diagnose or provide professional advice or recommendations. Listener discretion
Speaker 2: is advised. So my guest today is Michelle Ferris. Michelle
Speaker 2: is a psychotherapist, codependency expert, and anger management specialist with
Speaker 2: a passion for helping people break free from toxic relationships.
Speaker 2: Michelle's YouTube channel has over three million viewers. Where she's
Speaker 2: known for her practical tips and expertise. She's written several
Speaker 2: ebooks and courses for creating relationships at work. I kind
Speaker 2: of lost my place where I was at. Michelle can
Speaker 2: often be found with a Vente latte sitting right next
Speaker 2: to her desk as she works on her next course.
Speaker 2: So welcome and thank you for joining me here today, Michelle.
Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me, Tina. I'm really looking
Speaker 3: forward to it.
Speaker 2: Very good. I pushed my little clock and it didn't push.
Speaker 2: I pushed the wrong button. So here we go. So
Speaker 2: we're talking today on specific topics. So I'm just going
Speaker 2: to turn that over to you. So tell me your story.
Speaker 3: Sure. So I always knew I was codependent, and that's
Speaker 3: part of why I became a therapist. And at twenty
Speaker 3: one I started going into twelve step programs around my
Speaker 3: food addiction. And oh about seven years later, I realized
Speaker 3: I was super codependent and literally I would do backflips
Speaker 3: to get in relationships with women like friendships. I was
Speaker 3: always looking for that next person. I would pay for them.
Speaker 3: I would be the one doing most of the calling.
Speaker 3: I really was super needy, and I got into recovery
Speaker 3: and I found and I don't know, you probably agree,
Speaker 3: but you know, back in the late eighties, there wasn't
Speaker 3: a I mean, there was a lot going on in
Speaker 3: the recovery field, but there wasn't a lot of specific
Speaker 3: like in codependency recovery do this, And so I was
Speaker 3: kind of lost and had to find my way and
Speaker 3: I finally felt like, okay, I was doing allen on.
Speaker 3: I started doing it in my practice because I really
Speaker 3: find that most people have some traits that can be
Speaker 3: really problematic. And about ten years ago, I had a
Speaker 3: friendship crash and burned totally out of the blue, and
Speaker 3: it made me hit another bottom and I realized, holy crap,
Speaker 3: I got addicted to somebody again. And it was actually
Speaker 3: the best thing that ever happened in my recovery because
Speaker 3: it made me realize what my missing piece was, which
Speaker 3: isn't really talked about much, which is the relationship you
Speaker 3: have with yourself, not just self esteem. Right. I mean,
Speaker 3: sure we all need help with that, but like the
Speaker 3: root of codependency is forming unhealthy dependencies, in putting someone
Speaker 3: else's needs above our own because we want their love
Speaker 3: and approval and don't have any other way to get it.
Speaker 3: So This can be, of course, super problematic because you're
Speaker 3: probably attracting alcoholics, narcissists, people who are more self centered
Speaker 3: because we're self less, so it ends up becoming sort
Speaker 3: of a perfect dysfunctional match.
Speaker 2: Yes, and you know, I work with a lot of
Speaker 2: my clients that are not just codependent, but they're they've
Speaker 2: got a toxic relationship. They'll leave, yeah, get a people
Speaker 2: of breasthts in, and then they go back in for
Speaker 2: more and so interesting enough that you say that you
Speaker 2: were in AA type of work, because that's exactly how
Speaker 2: I explain to my clients what needs to be done.
Speaker 2: They need to to get a sponsor. They need like
Speaker 2: three sponsors so that when they're crazy, that that right
Speaker 2: person that they can call somebody else and say, hey, yep,
Speaker 2: I'm really wanting to go back to them or whatever
Speaker 2: that looks like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think there's so much shame attached to
Speaker 3: our dependency issues that we tend not to want to
Speaker 3: talk about it, and so we just immediately revert back.
Speaker 3: Because a lot of people in codependency are people addicts,
Speaker 3: their relationship addicts, so they don't really see themselves as
Speaker 3: being able to survive successfully by themselves and that's the
Speaker 3: tipping point. Like for me, I didn't do it in
Speaker 3: my romantic relationships as much as I did with my
Speaker 3: female friends, but I had to get to the point
Speaker 3: where I realized, oh my god, like, I can't put
Speaker 3: that other person ahead of my own myself, right, I
Speaker 3: have to have a solid foundation. And this was after
Speaker 3: twenty years of recovery. So you know, codependency is very
Speaker 3: humble and it's not something to be taken lightly.
Speaker 2: No, until we're talking. I mean even when we talked
Speaker 2: the first time, I didn't realize that we talked about
Speaker 2: the codependency, that your codependency was on friendship. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: as I'm listening to you talk, I don't feel at
Speaker 2: all that I have that part in my life. But
Speaker 2: I definitely have a codependency for having somebody to be
Speaker 2: with me, not necessarily romantically, but it usually ends up
Speaker 2: that way. And I see that with having my divorce
Speaker 2: twenty three years ago and the men the long term
Speaker 2: relationships that I had, and I would bounce from one
Speaker 2: and go to another, and bounce from that and go
Speaker 2: to another, and then here my husband died, and shortly
Speaker 2: after that I wanted a roommate, I wanted somebody that
Speaker 2: was here to like a talk, and.
Speaker 3: It was just crazy, right well, yeah, because it's really
Speaker 3: and sorry for your loss, because that is really, really hard,
Speaker 3: and yet when you add codepenancy to it, it feels
Speaker 3: like you're going to fall apart without having that other person.
Speaker 3: And that's where you know, looking at our relationships and
Speaker 3: assessing whether or not they're healthy can be a challenging.
Speaker 2: Process, definitely. And I would say that my roommate and
Speaker 2: my relationship is probably not a healthy one because I
Speaker 2: took over the household needs that he and it is
Speaker 2: a he would want. I do the laundry, I do
Speaker 2: most of the cooking, you know, And for me, that's
Speaker 2: what I felt I needed for me because if I
Speaker 2: wasn't doing it for somebody else, I definitely wasn't doing
Speaker 2: it for me. And what was I mean for me?
Speaker 2: I said on the couch with what a six pack
Speaker 2: or twelve pack of beer? And that's not healthy on
Speaker 2: any level, right right?
Speaker 3: Well, And you bring up a good point because a
Speaker 3: lot of people who are in codependency recovery have addiction
Speaker 3: issues where we might have beer, wine, junk food, you know,
Speaker 3: things like that. Because we don't want to feel our
Speaker 3: feelings because there's so much pain in abandonment there because
Speaker 3: we usually people who are codependent become that way in
Speaker 3: their childhood because their needs weren't met, they weren't validated
Speaker 3: as kids. So instead of mom, you know, my sister
Speaker 3: is hitting me, Mom isn't going to say, oh my god,
Speaker 3: I'm going to handle that. Mom's going to say deal
Speaker 3: with it on your own, or you're being too sensitive,
Speaker 3: so you're not going to get that validation that your
Speaker 3: reality is true. And that really messes us up.
Speaker 2: Yes, I can. You know, I look back over not
Speaker 2: so much my childhood but my coing skills with my
Speaker 2: kids and I recently, I don't know, maybe it was
Speaker 2: just because I knew we were going to be talking
Speaker 2: about codependency, but I looked back over my relationships early on,
Speaker 2: like right out of high school. I was a very
Speaker 2: strong female right at that point. I was going in
Speaker 2: flying places all by myself and doing things. And I
Speaker 2: come from a farm where that just wasn't the normal
Speaker 2: thing to do. And I went all over the US
Speaker 2: for a little while after I graduated, because I had school,
Speaker 2: I went and got married, I flew across to Germany,
Speaker 2: lived in Germany, and I was doing all of those things.
Speaker 2: And then later after I divorced or being in that
Speaker 2: abuse of relationship is when that codependency part kicked in.
Speaker 2: And I even noticed it in my late husbands in
Speaker 2: mys relationship where I would ask, so, where do you
Speaker 2: want to eat? And I was never going to tell
Speaker 2: him where I wanted to eat. It always had to
Speaker 2: do with where he wanted to eat. And so finally
Speaker 2: I said, Okay, this is the way we'll do it.
Speaker 2: I'll ask what, you tell me what, and I'll say where,
Speaker 2: or we'd switch it back and forth.
Speaker 3: Uh huh oh that's clever. Yeah, well, that's a lot
Speaker 3: of codependency recovery is learning to get in touch with
Speaker 3: your wants, your needs without feeling guilty about them.
Speaker 2: M I have a course that I work with with
Speaker 2: my clients after the divorce that's called here First. And
Speaker 2: I don't recommend that they if they want to start dating,
Speaker 2: I don't recommend that they date for at least six months,
Speaker 2: you know, not even get out there. And then we
Speaker 2: go out on dates with ourself, you know, need at
Speaker 2: a restaurant alone. Because these are the things I.
Speaker 3: Asked with yes, totally those Yeah, I totally agree. I
Speaker 3: think most people if they took six months to year
Speaker 3: to not date, to grieve the relationship, to work out
Speaker 3: what's unfinished, because let's face it, even in a year,
Speaker 3: you're not going to do it all, but at least
Speaker 3: you're gonna hopefully get back to center after doing that
Speaker 3: amount of grief work. And I think a lot of
Speaker 3: people don't do that, especially when you're codependant. You just
Speaker 3: glob on to the next person, hoping to get the
Speaker 3: love you can't give to yourself, which is why it's
Speaker 3: really hard to stop this pattern because we don't see
Speaker 3: a need to be alone and the value of that.
Speaker 3: And I didn't either until my friend ghosted me, and
Speaker 3: then I realized, holy crap, I have got to be
Speaker 3: okay in my own skin, truly, and it changed everything
Speaker 3: for me because now, like if I've noticed, I've started
Speaker 3: a few friendships in the last few years, and a
Speaker 3: few of them have fallen away because that's normal and natural.
Speaker 3: You're not going to necessarily have everyone forever. And I'm
Speaker 3: totally okay with it because I don't rely anymore on
Speaker 3: that other person to feed me emotionally. It's more like, yeah,
Speaker 3: you know what, this is part of life. Some friends
Speaker 3: are going to come and go, and that's okay. But
Speaker 3: when we overly attach ourselves, thinking we can't live without
Speaker 3: this person, whether it's you know, your mother, your boyfriend,
Speaker 3: your husband, your friend, your coworker, whoever, that your child,
Speaker 3: your adult child. I mean a lot of people are
Speaker 3: codependent with their adult children. But that's really the secret
Speaker 3: of codependency recovery is to really be able to have
Speaker 3: that centeredness within yourself so that you can choose a
Speaker 3: relationship not feel compelled to stay in one, no matter
Speaker 3: how unhealthy it is.
Speaker 2: Right, it took me a long time to even allow
Speaker 2: friendships in with different totally opposite from what you're saying.
Speaker 2: I had friends, I just didn't call them friends. They
Speaker 2: were acquaintances to me, huh, And I kept them at
Speaker 2: arm's length. And I don't know why. Listening to you talk,
Speaker 2: I'm like, the only thing I can think of is
Speaker 2: back in high school, middle school, there was a situation
Speaker 2: in one of the girls that was considered my best
Speaker 2: friends totally ghosted me then, and she refuses to talk
Speaker 2: to any of us from our class. Oh so that
Speaker 2: is a her thing that wasn't a me thing, but
Speaker 2: it's the only thing I can as I am to
Speaker 2: you talk that I can connect that with well.
Speaker 3: And that's really disconcerting because when somebody leaves without saying
Speaker 3: a word, even when it's a childhood friendship right or relationship,
Speaker 3: it can be so shocking to us because as teens,
Speaker 3: our friends are everything. Can you hear my dog?
Speaker 2: No? I can't. I can't. Oh good, doing good? So yes,
Speaker 2: And I don't think that I really you know, this
Speaker 2: incident was is that I took alcohol to school and
Speaker 2: to make friends, and and then I turned to all
Speaker 2: the girls that had a sip of it in and
Speaker 2: so nobody talked to me for that next year. And
Speaker 2: this one girl just totally she she's like I said,
Speaker 2: she goes to the whole school. Yeah, nobody, even her
Speaker 2: family says. She doesn't talk much, if at all to them.
Speaker 3: HU.
Speaker 2: So it's just kind of interesting. But yet my kindergarten
Speaker 2: best friend is still in my life. We're still best
Speaker 2: friends and love and all the friends that I've made
Speaker 2: basically since then, all of the friendships have stayed it
Speaker 2: except for one that I am so okay with him
Speaker 2: taking his own place in the world.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, Well that's part of recovery too, is really
Speaker 3: continuing to assess, you know, is this relationship working is
Speaker 3: it not? Are you doing eighty percent of the work right,
Speaker 3: because that's always a telltale sign of a codependent relationship
Speaker 3: where you're doing all the texting, you're doing all the helping, supporting,
Speaker 3: but when you need something, they're nowhere to be found
Speaker 3: or they're very you know, there may they may have
Speaker 3: some willingness, but they're now used to the relationship being
Speaker 3: more about serving their needs than being mutually satisfying.
Speaker 2: M And I go back to one friend that I
Speaker 2: did have in high school, and she was when I
Speaker 2: called a friend, but it was her brother who was
Speaker 2: really my best friend. And she was just like that,
Speaker 2: in order to have her friendship, you had to do
Speaker 2: all the work, yeah, to the point that she wanted
Speaker 2: to go out, and her mom would say, well, you
Speaker 2: have to do you have to finish the laundry or whatever.
Speaker 2: So she didn't put you over what why you did that?
Speaker 3: Oh man?
Speaker 2: She would say, I'm busy with I'm busy with some homework.
Speaker 2: If you'll do that for me, and I will back
Speaker 2: over that And she has no friend, she has no friends,
Speaker 2: you know, and so and in my world, I did
Speaker 2: a lot of work with my friends, but I also
Speaker 2: expected some of that and I've been in the space
Speaker 2: I'm like, Okay, I've paid for dinner the last three time. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and now this one is love it all on you?
Speaker 3: Yep, yep. Well see, that's what most codependent people don't do,
Speaker 3: is they won't speak up. They will feel that hurt
Speaker 3: I'm paying right, and then they'll hope the other person notices,
Speaker 3: and then they just wait and wait and wait, and
Speaker 3: then that resentment gets worse and worse over time because
Speaker 3: we're not honest with how we feel. And I get it.
Speaker 3: I mean I used to stuff my feelings too, especially anger.
Speaker 3: But what you're doing is exactly what I would have
Speaker 3: people do. Is you know what, this isn't working for me?
Speaker 3: You know? Can you let's take turns? You know, because
Speaker 3: if the other person flips out about that, that's a
Speaker 3: really good sign, because yes, it's a bummer, but they're
Speaker 3: telling you exactly who they are if they cannot give
Speaker 3: to you in any real way, or they feel threatened
Speaker 3: by you calling them on their behavior because maybe they're
Speaker 3: gaslighting you or maybe they're not treating you. Well, that's
Speaker 3: really important information that we have to assess and decide
Speaker 3: what do we want at this point, because those are
Speaker 3: toxic behaviors that we really need to pay attention to.
Speaker 2: Yes, because now we're coming into my field. That's the
Speaker 2: vercissistic abuser right there.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 2: And when when you were talking, you know, we go
Speaker 2: back and forth about this who's paying thing? When they
Speaker 2: just use you and use you, then they're obviously that
Speaker 2: abusive and you speaking up isn't going to make a difference,
Speaker 2: right you speaking up will probably make them ghost you
Speaker 2: or leave you in the dust somewhere, which is a
Speaker 2: gift for right.
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I totally agree. But you know,
Speaker 3: there are ways you can detach and take better care
Speaker 3: of yourself, but you need a support system because getting
Speaker 3: out of a toxic relationship by yourself without any resources
Speaker 3: is really really really hard, too hard for people to
Speaker 3: want to get it.
Speaker 2: I would say it's almost impossible. I agree that could
Speaker 2: do that. It's less than one percent.
Speaker 3: Right, Well, and that's why you do the work you do.
Speaker 3: I do the work I do because people need support
Speaker 3: to say, you know what, I got to transfer that
Speaker 3: dependency and use it in a more constructive way by
Speaker 3: focusing on our growth.
Speaker 2: Right, right, So let's talk more about your dependency and
Speaker 2: when you realized it was an issue.
Speaker 3: So well, I always sort of in the background of
Speaker 3: my life, even as a kid. I knew it was
Speaker 3: an issue, but with the friendship, I didn't realize it
Speaker 3: till after the friendship ended, and then I had to
Speaker 3: go back. And one of the things I caught, which
Speaker 3: was super important, was one of the first things she
Speaker 3: said that I didn't register was I don't like a
Speaker 3: lot of regular contact with people. And I was like, huh.
Speaker 3: So the one thing I did with that is that
Speaker 3: I made sure that I called her. She called me,
Speaker 3: so it was pretty even Stephen, But she said that,
Speaker 3: and I never did anything with it. And fast forward
Speaker 3: to the end of the friendship. She really didn't want
Speaker 3: as much contacts as she was actually doing. And that's
Speaker 3: the red flag we get early on that could if
Speaker 3: I would have went back and said, Okay, great, what
Speaker 3: does that look like to you, And if she would
Speaker 3: have said, oh, once or twice a month, boom, I
Speaker 3: would have been like cool, great, I would have totally
Speaker 3: done that. I had enough recovery at that point to
Speaker 3: do it. But I didn't. I didn't want to go there.
Speaker 3: I was hoping that because she kept calling me a
Speaker 3: couple times a week, it was okay, hey, and you know,
Speaker 3: at face value, I couldn't have known any different. But
Speaker 3: I think people tell us early on who they are.
Speaker 3: We just need to pay.
Speaker 2: Attention, right right. I have two girlfriends, and I'm I'm
Speaker 2: one that doesn't like talking on the phone with a
Speaker 2: friend every day. Yeah, And so I have this one
Speaker 2: girl that and she's one of my best friends, and
Speaker 2: she wants or has in the past, wanted to talk
Speaker 2: every single day, every single It was just it was
Speaker 2: a lot to the point that I would like, oh,
Speaker 2: I have, you know, silenced the calls because I'm like,
Speaker 2: I'm super busy. I need to get this project done
Speaker 2: before I talk to anybody anyway. And then I have
Speaker 2: another friend who's who's more like what you say, you
Speaker 2: were doing all the work in our relationship. I've had
Speaker 2: to diller to stop. You are doing too much in
Speaker 2: this relationship for you. I mean, it feels wonderful for me,
Speaker 2: but I'm not able to reciprocate.
Speaker 3: That, yeah, because it's too much.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she doesn't want to talk. We do talk
Speaker 2: once a week generally, as long as I've got free
Speaker 2: time at a set time that we have for every week.
Speaker 2: And it's about supporting each other. And that's why the
Speaker 2: friendship works.
Speaker 3: Right right well, and you're speaking up, and that's where
Speaker 3: if somebody is in a relationship, like if a listener
Speaker 3: right now is in a relationship with someone who's codependent,
Speaker 3: one thing you can do is speak up about it.
Speaker 3: But you also have to remember that when we call
Speaker 3: the codependent out and say, you know, I notice these
Speaker 3: things that you're doing, they may not have a good reaction.
Speaker 3: They may get super heard, they may feel like you're
Speaker 3: attacking them. But again, if they don't come back and say, hmm,
Speaker 3: you know what, let me think about that, then that's
Speaker 3: a warning sign that they may not be ready to change.
Speaker 3: And that's okay, but then you're a choice for what
Speaker 3: you do next.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And a good example, as you're talking, I'm
Speaker 2: seeing this and I'm I don't. I can't say his name,
Speaker 2: so we're maybe yes, you can get it. But it's
Speaker 2: on the big Bang theory, it is the one young
Speaker 2: man that's living with his mother that is definitely a
Speaker 2: codependent relationship from the mother to the son and the
Speaker 2: son to the mother.
Speaker 3: Okay, I haven't seen it.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's they live together and there are adults,
Speaker 2: and she won't let him like he in this last
Speaker 2: set last show, he was he gets a chance to
Speaker 2: go to the space station and she let him. She's
Speaker 2: refusing to allow him to go to the space station,
Speaker 2: you know, and here he is. He's like in his
Speaker 2: early thirties or so. Oh no, yes, and it's like
Speaker 2: but as you're talking, that's definitely and it's like as
Speaker 2: last name as like horror Witz or something like that. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's just as you're talking, that is definitely really loud.
Speaker 2: So for those of you watching that, you scratch your
Speaker 2: head and go, I don't know anybody like that. That
Speaker 2: show and his relationship with his mom definitely show that.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, and that's really common. I mean a lot
Speaker 3: of adult kids and their moms especially, there can be
Speaker 3: some codependent tendencies, especially when the mom looks to their
Speaker 3: kid for validation for you know, I'm a good mom,
Speaker 3: I'm a good person. This is what I did with
Speaker 3: my life, and you know, I think every mom has
Speaker 3: a little of that, But it's really dicey when we
Speaker 3: look to our child for our self esteem, because it
Speaker 3: never works. It always creates an undue burden on the
Speaker 3: child and they pick up on that and they don't
Speaker 3: know what to do with it, and sometimes they don't
Speaker 3: even have words for it because if they're young, right,
Speaker 3: they don't know what's happening. Know, it doesn't feel right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I see that in my work as a
Speaker 2: co parent co parenting coach, is that I see that
Speaker 2: codependency where they're dependent on the abusive parent because the
Speaker 2: abusive parent has convinced them, has gas lit them to
Speaker 2: thinking one that the other parent is worthless and not good,
Speaker 2: or any other series of bad things, but now has
Speaker 2: them convinced of whatever they I'm the best or as
Speaker 2: the child, you need me or else kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: And I see a lot of that type of codependency.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it sounds like what you're also talking about
Speaker 3: is parental alienation.
Speaker 2: Parental alienation, but a lot of it happens within the home,
Speaker 2: and it's even before the divorce happens. And it's, as
Speaker 2: you say, because I speak up because the other parent
Speaker 2: is so submissive, they don't speak up and eventually, especially
Speaker 2: if it's a son and a mother and the dad
Speaker 2: is the abusive one, it'll get to the point that
Speaker 2: the son is verbally in some cases physically abusive with
Speaker 2: the mother. She has never spoke up.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, and if the dad has any issues of
Speaker 3: unhealthy anger rage, then the boy learns that and then
Speaker 3: turns that towards the mother, which, yeah, that's those are
Speaker 3: very sad.
Speaker 2: Cases and other women as they date, so then they
Speaker 2: become a narcissistic, abusive person. So in talking about this,
Speaker 2: what do you feel is the biggest misconception of codependency?
Speaker 3: So I think the biggest misconception is that it's about
Speaker 3: fixing your relationship, when really it's it's not. It's really
Speaker 3: about turning that focus back onto yourself and healing yourself
Speaker 3: because when you do that, your relationships are naturally going
Speaker 3: to get better. But that was one of the mistakes
Speaker 3: I made and a lot of my clients made early on,
Speaker 3: is if they come to me and go, I just
Speaker 3: need my marriage to be better, so they think the
Speaker 3: relationship is the problem, not the patterns they're contributing into it.
Speaker 3: And that's where the real work is. Because if we
Speaker 3: can realize Hey, you know what, Yes we're super nice people,
Speaker 3: Yes we're supergivers, but we have culpability in that we
Speaker 3: have behavior patterns that are literally setting us up to
Speaker 3: have one sided relationships. And that's where the gold is
Speaker 3: is to be able to go, Okay, how can I
Speaker 3: stop focusing on fixing the relationship and start focusing on
Speaker 3: fixing myself?
Speaker 2: Yes? And and as you're talking, I'm seeing a picture
Speaker 2: of the way we are. And I'm gonna say wife
Speaker 2: because I was a wife. So we are picking up
Speaker 2: their socks or underwear, we're fixing dinner, we're doing all
Speaker 2: this stuff. And at first it's just what we think
Speaker 2: we need to do, because that's what we learn from
Speaker 2: our mothers, right, And then we get down the road
Speaker 2: and we have this animosity because man, and they're always
Speaker 2: leaving their stuff on the floor. And why are they
Speaker 2: always leaving their stuff on the floor because we always
Speaker 2: pick it up. We never got And we we then
Speaker 2: start fights about the underwear and we don't even know
Speaker 2: what the fight really is, right, and definitely they don't.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, because culturally, you know, there's still a lot
Speaker 3: around women taking care of the home, women being considered
Speaker 3: the prime I'm mary caregiver. The men help out with
Speaker 3: the kids. I mean, it's crap, but there's still an
Speaker 3: element of that. And I think that a lot of
Speaker 3: women like my age and your age. I'm fifty nine,
Speaker 3: and when your husband retires, then you have a whole
Speaker 3: new ball game. And sometimes that's what brings it out
Speaker 3: because you realize, wow, he's home all day and I'm
Speaker 3: still doing this stuff, like the roles never change, or
Speaker 3: now you're an empty nester, right, and yes, maybe you're
Speaker 3: both still working, but she's still doing predominantly all the
Speaker 3: housework and he gets to go golfing, you know whatever
Speaker 3: that looks like. So it's really important to kind of
Speaker 3: renegotiate that and own it as a woman. I mean,
Speaker 3: I've had to do this with my husband where I'm like,
Speaker 3: you know what, I realize, I've sort of set this
Speaker 3: up because I'm a caregiver and I cook and clean
Speaker 3: and do all that stuff. But now I want a
Speaker 3: little bit less, like I want this to not be
Speaker 3: eighty twenty so much. And that's recovery when you can
Speaker 3: bring it up and say, you know, I'm going to
Speaker 3: own it instead of saying, instead of blaming my husband
Speaker 3: for it right to say, oh my god, he's never
Speaker 3: offering No, I set it up. I absolutely set it
Speaker 3: up that way. But owning that can be really helpful
Speaker 3: in how you approach the other person because then they
Speaker 3: don't feel attacked and they're realizing, oh, wow, you kind
Speaker 3: of did set me up for that. But that accountability
Speaker 3: helps them want to hear you because they're not being
Speaker 3: tagged for it. It's more of a accountability conversation, which
Speaker 3: can be super healthy.
Speaker 2: Yes, and I know that, and I have learned in
Speaker 2: as i've aged that I needed to speak up that.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I tell young women when they're getting married, you know,
Speaker 2: don't start doing everything for them. Start as a team
Speaker 2: and then figure out what you I'd rather do and
Speaker 2: you would rather them do, and kind of separate it
Speaker 2: out that way. But start as a team, because you
Speaker 2: start picking up the underwear today and you're still from today, right.
Speaker 3: And I think that's the hard part when we're young,
Speaker 3: is we just don't have that awareness, so we go
Speaker 3: back to the default of what we learned growing up
Speaker 3: or what we wish we had growing up. And I
Speaker 3: love that you're saying that, because it's true. It's like,
Speaker 3: if you can start off negotiating and saying, hey, let's
Speaker 3: create this together, because if they flip out again, that's
Speaker 3: super important information. Find out now before you put the
Speaker 3: ring on they if they're not willing or they absolutely
Speaker 3: want you to do everything with the home and kids.
Speaker 3: You know what. Some couples are okay with that, but
Speaker 3: you got to bring that out so that each person
Speaker 3: can really agree and be honest about it.
Speaker 2: Yes, and some people say they're okay with that, and
Speaker 2: they're really not because they didn't speak up. And it's
Speaker 2: all about that speaking up. And I have so many
Speaker 2: people he supported her through college or vice versa. Usually
Speaker 2: it's her supporting him through college, and now he won't
Speaker 2: get a real job. He still wants to go to college.
Speaker 2: And here it's been fifteen years and she's a nurse
Speaker 2: putting him through college.
Speaker 3: Still fifteen years right, Yeah, that's really rough because then
Speaker 3: you're always stuck in that giving role.
Speaker 2: Again. Start with it, fifty to fifty.
Speaker 3: Start if you can.
Speaker 2: I tell women this all the time. And my boys
Speaker 2: married very strong women. And I said, she needs to
Speaker 2: have a job, not because of the fact that you
Speaker 2: don't need to produce all the money and the income.
Speaker 2: Having a job will help her, it will make her
Speaker 2: better as a person, and if you would to die,
Speaker 2: she will have the ability to tend to her yourself.
Speaker 2: That's you know here I am, and of course I
Speaker 2: have owned my own business for lots of years, but
Speaker 2: it's that ability to work for ourselves that's so important. So, Michelle,
Speaker 2: what do you hope that somebody that is a codependent person?
Speaker 2: What do you hope that they get out of this conversation?
Speaker 3: So there is a roadmap. You can absolutely do your
Speaker 3: codependency with a roadmap, because for me that was super frustrating.
Speaker 3: And for me, it's three things. It's the first part
Speaker 3: is befriending yourself. That's where you're looking at your self care,
Speaker 3: your ability to trust, your intuition, your relationship or lack
Speaker 3: of with yourself. Then you want to assess and heal
Speaker 3: your relationships. That's the other bucket. Like you may know
Speaker 3: right now that there's certain relationships that are not working
Speaker 3: for you and that's part of recovery and we revisit
Speaker 3: that over and over. And then the last boocket is
Speaker 3: our family of origin issues and that's when you really
Speaker 3: do need a therapist or coach to preferably a therapist
Speaker 3: to walk you through that, because there's often trauma attached
Speaker 3: that you really need to process. But you also don't
Speaker 3: have to start with that. Some people, the befriending and
Speaker 3: the relationship skills, those are enough for a long time
Speaker 3: until their childhood starts rearing its head. And that's when
Speaker 3: you know that may be time to explore therapy.
Speaker 2: You know, I there's a point where a therapy is
Speaker 2: so important. And when we get into a place where
Speaker 2: we're now, things are popping up, Like you said, childhood
Speaker 2: rears its head. When those things happen, we really need
Speaker 2: somebody who understands that. I mean, I have worked in
Speaker 2: emotional health for a long long time, and there's still
Speaker 2: points where I will get to where I'll say, is
Speaker 2: this is necessary for you to seek somebody, and I won't.
Speaker 2: I won't just send them to just a regular therapist.
Speaker 2: I'll send them to somebody like you, because they may
Speaker 2: need to have medication. I'm not an advocate of medication,
Speaker 2: but I can tell you from my own experiences with
Speaker 2: hormonal imbalances that sometimes, yeah, a low level medication is
Speaker 2: needed to kick your body out of its dependency on
Speaker 2: whatever it shouldn't be depending on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I to be clear, I don't prescribe meds.
Speaker 3: I'm a therapist, not a psychiatrist. But absolutely I love
Speaker 3: that you are able to delineate the difference because a
Speaker 3: lot of coaches nowadays are doing trauma work it and
Speaker 3: for me that's kind of scary because you know, that's
Speaker 3: a realm where you really have to be trained and
Speaker 3: know what you're doing. Because the person can decompensate, they
Speaker 3: can go into deep depressions. We don't want that. We
Speaker 3: want them to be absolutely safe in doing the work
Speaker 3: at their own pace when they're ready.
Speaker 2: Right right. I have a lot of times I'll make
Speaker 2: sure they have a therapist before I begin, and then
Speaker 2: I work alongside the therapist. I have the ideal that
Speaker 2: you need to take to your therapist. You need to
Speaker 2: let your therapist know. We talked about this and I
Speaker 2: said it needed to go so that there's an extra
Speaker 2: set of ears involved for that therapist.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then you can do a lot of the
Speaker 3: supporting and handholding that they really need because the therapist
Speaker 3: is only an hour a week and a lot of
Speaker 3: people need more than that.
Speaker 2: I agree. So then we have our support system, Michelle,
Speaker 2: our close family, and friends. What do you hope that
Speaker 2: they learn from this conversation.
Speaker 3: But codependency is a tree with many branches. It can
Speaker 3: go everywhere. So if you're feeling kind of frustrated with
Speaker 3: your loved one because of the codependency, that's normal. But
Speaker 3: don't be afraid to set boundaries and take care of yourself,
Speaker 3: because you know, you don't want to hide from their codependency.
Speaker 3: You want to take care of yourself, even if you're
Speaker 3: not going to quote confront it, because sometimes that's not
Speaker 3: really what we want to be doing anyway. But if
Speaker 3: they're calling you incessantly, you know what you may have
Speaker 3: to say once, you know what, I can talk to
Speaker 3: you once a week and that's all I have right now,
Speaker 3: and boom, if they keep calling you, you don't answer
Speaker 3: the phone. Like so many times, the family and friends
Speaker 3: of codependence need to set better boundaries and let go
Speaker 3: of the fact that they may be super hurt, they
Speaker 3: may feel abandoned. That's their work. You're not responsible for
Speaker 3: their reaction. And a lot of times people get, you know,
Speaker 3: kind of lost in the codependence reaction. But that's where
Speaker 3: you have to go back into your body and go
Speaker 3: you know what, I'm just taking care of myself, being kind,
Speaker 3: but letting them know this is what I can do
Speaker 3: and this is what I can't.
Speaker 2: Yes. And going back to the beginning part of this
Speaker 2: conversation where I was talking about the trauma bond, I
Speaker 2: didn't actually label it earlier, but the trauma bond is
Speaker 2: different than codependency. And I had said that for trauma bonding,
Speaker 2: we needed to find a sponsor to three sponsors that
Speaker 2: we call when we're in this and I say two
Speaker 2: to three. One is yes, you may not be able
Speaker 2: to call that one because they're out of pocket or whatever.
Speaker 2: But just like you're saying, sometimes we just can't handle
Speaker 2: our friend puking on everything all the time, all the time.
Speaker 2: So being able to tag team it with friends or
Speaker 2: family members makes that easy. Now, codependency is a little
Speaker 2: bit different than trauma bonding. So what do you recommend
Speaker 2: when they're now craving that person?
Speaker 3: So that's where your support system comes in. And that's
Speaker 3: where I always recommend alan On or CODA because in
Speaker 3: the beginning, you can't go from being highly dependent to
Speaker 3: being healthy interdependent. It's too big a leap. So what
Speaker 3: a lot of people do is they transfer that energy
Speaker 3: to meetings and they'll go to a meeting a day.
Speaker 3: They'll start talking at every meeting because they're overflowing with pain.
Speaker 3: But that's a healthier alternative then calling your friend a
Speaker 3: dozen times and wiping them out. So that's where you
Speaker 3: know people. It's funny how people have, you know, their
Speaker 3: own misconceptions about twelve step programs, like it's a cult,
Speaker 3: it's a religious program. No, it's not. You don't have
Speaker 3: to believe in God in any way. If somebody tells
Speaker 3: you that, just go on to the next person. But
Speaker 3: you know, it is a safe place to go to
Speaker 3: share because they're not going to give you direct advice.
Speaker 3: They're not going to say, oh, you should leave him. No,
Speaker 3: they're just gonna let you talk and say keep coming back.
Speaker 3: And that's where we need to transfer that energy to
Speaker 3: a healthier support system. And to me, the twelve step program,
Speaker 3: especially allan On, is really a great choice for that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and and I went to alan On, but it
Speaker 2: was because my mother, mother was an alcoholic for me
Speaker 2: when I needed to talk about stuff, and I love
Speaker 2: the twelve step as I would go to Narcotics Anonymous.
Speaker 2: The allan On portion of that either because those people's
Speaker 2: problems were even though I wasn't using drugs or alcohol,
Speaker 2: their problems was the same as my problems. And I
Speaker 2: love to hear because I'm like, oh, okay, well there
Speaker 2: is a way, you know, we can come together and
Speaker 2: support each other. And so so then that brings me
Speaker 2: to this this last little bit is eventually, especially in marriage,
Speaker 2: if there's going to be a divorce or any help
Speaker 2: or mending of the relationship, they're gonna have to seek
Speaker 2: outside help. They're gonna have to go to a therapist,
Speaker 2: They're gonna have to seek a coach, or you know,
Speaker 2: in my case, you know, sometimes the cops are called.
Speaker 2: So what do you want that group of the outside
Speaker 2: support system to know?
Speaker 3: You mean the husband and wife or what do you know?
Speaker 2: If if I am codependent and I am struggling, I
Speaker 2: might go to a therapist with this, right, Maybe it's
Speaker 2: a therapist who haven't dealt with that kind of stuff,
Speaker 2: or maybe there's physical abuse along with the codependency. So
Speaker 2: what do you want that group of people to know?
Speaker 3: Well, interview your therapist for sure, because not every therapist
Speaker 3: deals with it. We all have our own niches, uh,
Speaker 3: And that's really important. Because when you're trying to get
Speaker 3: out of an abusive relationship, you need a lot of support,
Speaker 3: but you also need to ask some really import and
Speaker 3: questions like how do you work with codependency, how do
Speaker 3: you work with toxic relationships? What's your modality? Because some
Speaker 3: people are going to say, oh, you know, I listen
Speaker 3: a lot, like some therapists, you know, old school, they
Speaker 3: might listen a lot, but they may not give you
Speaker 3: a lot of feedback. And if you're the kind of
Speaker 3: person that needs a lot of feedback, you need to
Speaker 3: know up front. That's what the initial phone call is for,
Speaker 3: is to figure out what kind of support you want
Speaker 3: and what kind they give, because not every therapist, you know,
Speaker 3: there's so many different kinds of therapy and personality styles
Speaker 3: out there, and you need to know what you want
Speaker 3: so that you can get the support you need.
Speaker 2: And I think that's super important. And you know, oftentimes
Speaker 2: I'm telling you know what I want the cops to
Speaker 2: know about physical views and things like that, But in
Speaker 2: this case, if you're a therapist and they come to you, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's super important. I think, you know, especially like for
Speaker 2: I'm a coach and yes, I work in the emotional arena.
Speaker 2: But my client needs to know I'm not a licensed therapist,
Speaker 2: and so I think that's super important, or I do
Speaker 2: trauma informed, or I do as opposed to making sure
Speaker 2: that we get a client, it's super important that we
Speaker 2: tell our prospect who we are and what we do
Speaker 2: and what we're capable of we're not capable of doing. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, and if you're a therapist working with codependency, you
Speaker 3: have to have really good boundaries and you have to
Speaker 3: realize that what they see is the problem may be
Speaker 3: completely different than what you see, because they may come
Speaker 3: in saying, hey, my husband's the problem. Because most codependents
Speaker 3: are super nice, generous people, they do not see their faults.
Speaker 3: Now some do, but a lot of times we don't
Speaker 3: because we're with such toxic people. It's super easy to
Speaker 3: go it's this, it's this person, right, it's not me,
Speaker 3: So you know, it's definitely a patient process. And also,
Speaker 3: some codependent people or sorry, some therapists have codependent tendencies.
Speaker 3: So you also have to be doing your own work
Speaker 3: because you could very easily want to rescue them and
Speaker 3: to get them out of their situation. And that's not
Speaker 3: helpful either. That's not our job. Our job is to
Speaker 3: support and provide guidance, but we can't, you know, now,
Speaker 3: become codependent on our clients and try to fix them right.
Speaker 2: And I find, especially in the therapy world, that happens
Speaker 2: quite a bit. But I look at it with me
Speaker 2: and I've had to go to the victim's triangle and
Speaker 2: I've had to use this to explain things to other
Speaker 2: people because it was explained to me. Because you know,
Speaker 2: in the victims triangle there's four or three points, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: have your victim right, your perpetrator, your rescuer.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Of course we're part of that triangle when we're rescuing.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And that's not helpful for the client. The
Speaker 3: client needs to be able to figure out, Okay, am
Speaker 3: I codependent? Do I want to do the work? Or
Speaker 3: am I still in that stage of feeling like a
Speaker 3: victim of my circumstance, Because that's part of the work too,
Speaker 3: is to be where that person is and to gently
Speaker 3: help them explore alternatives.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, most definitely. So we're coming here to the end, Michelle,
Speaker 2: And I noticed in the stuff that you sent me
Speaker 2: that's going to be all of your contact information is
Speaker 2: going to be low be below this in the section,
Speaker 2: and do you have a freebie that you're offering in there?
Speaker 2: So can you tell everybody about that?
Speaker 3: Sure, it's the seventh steps of healing one side of relationships,
Speaker 3: basically codependent relationships, and it's going to walk you through
Speaker 3: how to identify that, the signs and symptoms, and what
Speaker 3: are some initial ways you can start to pull back
Speaker 3: safely and create healthier relationships by practicing some baby boundaries,
Speaker 3: by learning more about detachment, by taking care of yourself
Speaker 3: more than the other person, because there's some little things
Speaker 3: people can do that can make a big difference.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, So just because I'm hearing this, I didn't
Speaker 2: look it over. Would that actually help at least in
Speaker 2: the beginning steps of trauma bonding?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, because if in the trauma bonding you're negating
Speaker 3: your own needs, you're not being able to hear your
Speaker 3: truth or discover your truth, you're in a toxic pattern.
Speaker 3: Absolutely it can.
Speaker 2: Okay, very very good. So how I know all your
Speaker 2: content information will be in the show notes. But how
Speaker 2: can somebody reach you? What's the best way?
Speaker 3: So my website is Counseling Recovery dot com and my
Speaker 3: YouTube channel is Michelle Ferris at. I think it's your
Speaker 3: relationships that work, and I'm sure i'll give you the link,
Speaker 3: but those are the two easiest places to get.
Speaker 2: Me okay, awesome, and I do invite everybody to go
Speaker 2: watch that. I didn't know that you had the YouTube
Speaker 2: channel with all of that, so when I was reading
Speaker 2: through all of that, I'm like, oh, I definitely want
Speaker 2: to make sure I check that out. Nice, so very good.
Speaker 2: And for those of you who don't know me, I
Speaker 2: am a certified high conflict divorce and co parenting specialist.
Speaker 2: My job is to help you go through the most
Speaker 2: difficult parts of the divorce, the deciding, the finding the
Speaker 2: right attorney and all of that part, but keeping your peace.
Speaker 2: My job is to help you set boundaries, to keep
Speaker 2: those boundaries, and to help you communicate respectfully to your
Speaker 2: soond VX. And everyone's like, why would I ever want
Speaker 2: to communicate respectfully to them? Because the judge is watching. Okay,
Speaker 2: That's why it's so important. And the more that we
Speaker 2: do it respectful for them, the better we will fill
Speaker 2: in the end, the better we are coming out the
Speaker 2: other end. That's what I do. Helping you go through
Speaker 2: that shortens the time of your divorce and shortens the
Speaker 2: amount of money that you're going to spend in the process.
Speaker 2: And you can find me by going through and emailing
Speaker 2: me at Tina dot Huggins dot s e at gmail
Speaker 2: dot com. That's t I n A dot h U
Speaker 2: g g I n S dot s e at gmail
Speaker 2: dot com. My website is Divorce Coach Specialist dot com.
Speaker 2: And you can find me on social media too, Facebook
Speaker 2: under Tina Lynn Huggins, LinkedIn under Tina Huggins, Instagram under
Speaker 2: Divorce Coach Tina Lynn, and TikTok whereas you find me
Speaker 2: most often under Divorce Tina. So as we come to
Speaker 2: the end, what is the last little bit of support
Speaker 2: or knowledge that you want to give to our viewers today?
Speaker 3: You are exactly where you need to be right now.
Speaker 3: Don't judge your process.
Speaker 2: I love that. That is. That's the first time anybody's
Speaker 2: ever said that one But that is so true. That is,
Speaker 2: you know, I use that often to people. In fact,
Speaker 2: I did it earlier today to a person that's in
Speaker 2: a domestic violent shelter and they're so worried about It's like, nope,
Speaker 2: stop and it's okay to be overwhelmed. You should be overwhelmed.
Speaker 2: This is crazy. Just allow yourself and I kind of
Speaker 2: do what I learned from my instructors and stuff where
Speaker 2: we just need to check in with ourselfs label the
Speaker 2: fact that this is overwhelmed, where's that in our body?
Speaker 2: And go from there. So my little bit of advice
Speaker 2: for everybody is to go check out her YouTube channel.
Speaker 2: If she's got all these wonderful tips out there, that's
Speaker 2: my advice for you is to go check that out
Speaker 2: because everything that you heard today is amazing and what
Speaker 2: she has over there has to be extremely amazing. With
Speaker 2: three million viewers, thank you so much and thank you
Speaker 2: so much for being on the show today, Michelle.
Speaker 3: This is lovely.
Speaker 2: Thank you great and we'll see everybody next time. Thank you.
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