WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:03.000 How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with 2 00:00:03.040 --> 00:00:03.799 no ads? 3 00:00:04.440 --> 00:00:04.839 Easy? 4 00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:08.560 Become a patron for just five dollars a month. You 5 00:00:08.599 --> 00:00:11.320 get access to a private RSS feed where all the 6 00:00:11.359 --> 00:00:14.599 shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month, we'll get 7 00:00:14.599 --> 00:00:17.679 you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug. 8 00:00:18.160 --> 00:00:34.479 Sign up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. 9 00:00:34.479 --> 00:00:39.759 Happy Chris Mahana Kwanzadon. It's dot net Rocks. I'm Carl Franklin, an. 10 00:00:39.679 --> 00:00:42.039 Amateur Campbell and we timeshift. So this is actually being 11 00:00:42.039 --> 00:00:43.039 published in January. 12 00:00:43.159 --> 00:00:45.679 That's right, January ninth. So we hope you had a 13 00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:46.799 happy holiday anyway. 14 00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:48.000 Yeah, I'm sure it was great. 15 00:00:48.119 --> 00:00:51.200 Yeah, we haven't had ours yet as of this recording, 16 00:00:51.439 --> 00:00:55.600 No December nineteenth, but you know it's going to be 17 00:00:55.600 --> 00:00:57.960 a good show. Our old friend Thomas Betts is with us. 18 00:00:58.439 --> 00:01:01.479 And before I get into better know framework, I just 19 00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:03.399 want to check in with you, Richard Campbell and see 20 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:06.799 how your holiday is shaping up. 21 00:01:06.920 --> 00:01:10.000 Oh, now we're gonna we're shortly after this, like this weekend, 22 00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:12.879 we'll go to the city for the week Lots of 23 00:01:12.879 --> 00:01:15.079 friends to visit a few different parties, go to spend 24 00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:18.200 time with the girls. It's probably been the leak out 25 00:01:18.239 --> 00:01:22.159 by now. The youngest is pregnant, so she's like, hey, 26 00:01:22.159 --> 00:01:24.799 can I bourrow one of your old winter coats because 27 00:01:24.920 --> 00:01:26.400 mine don't fit anymore. 28 00:01:27.680 --> 00:01:35.359 Yeah. Kelly's daughter had a daughter and she turned one 29 00:01:35.599 --> 00:01:38.480 last week. Oh yeah, right, so we had, you know, 30 00:01:38.599 --> 00:01:43.400 the obligatory smash the cupcake in your face birthday party. 31 00:01:43.519 --> 00:01:44.079 That's the thing. 32 00:01:44.599 --> 00:01:47.239 It was pretty awesome. Yeah, all right, well, we've got 33 00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:49.079 a lot of stuff to cover in better know framework. 34 00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:59.040 It's history day here, so roll the music, all man, 35 00:01:59.040 --> 00:02:00.760 what do you got? So? I hadn't done this in 36 00:02:00.760 --> 00:02:03.200 a while, but you know, nineteen thirty two, which is 37 00:02:03.239 --> 00:02:07.599 our episode number, was such a jam packed year that 38 00:02:07.719 --> 00:02:11.280 I want to talk about some things that happened. And Thomas, 39 00:02:11.319 --> 00:02:12.960 I know you're there if you have anything you can 40 00:02:13.039 --> 00:02:13.479 jump in. 41 00:02:14.800 --> 00:02:15.120 You two. 42 00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:20.159 Richard, of course you are the history guy. So January fourth, 43 00:02:20.159 --> 00:02:24.759 British colonials in India arrested Mahatma Gandhi and put him 44 00:02:24.759 --> 00:02:30.680 in prison. January twelfth, US elected their first female senator, 45 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:37.039 Hattie Wyatt Caraway, who represented Arkansas. February seventh, NASA astronaut 46 00:02:37.080 --> 00:02:41.400 Alfred M. Warden was born in Jackson, Michigan. He went 47 00:02:41.520 --> 00:02:45.199 on the Apollo fifteen mission, which saw the use the 48 00:02:45.240 --> 00:02:48.840 first use of a lunar roving vehicle, a little Buggy, 49 00:02:48.879 --> 00:02:49.759 Little Buggy. 50 00:02:50.080 --> 00:02:50.759 March first. 51 00:02:51.080 --> 00:02:55.919 Lindberg plays a big role In nineteen thirty two. The 52 00:02:55.960 --> 00:02:59.000 Lindberg kidnapping occurred, where the twenty month old son of 53 00:02:59.039 --> 00:03:02.680 famous aviator t Arleson and Lindberg were kidnapped from their home. 54 00:03:03.719 --> 00:03:07.879 Was kidnapped from their home in east Amwell, New Jersey, 55 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:11.840 March fourteenth. George Eastman, the inventor of the Kodak camera, 56 00:03:11.960 --> 00:03:18.080 shot himself in the heart, aged seventy seven. March seventeenth, 57 00:03:18.159 --> 00:03:23.759 the German police rated Hitler's Nazi headquarters April's second. Famous aviator, 58 00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:26.680 Charles Lindberg, paid fifty thousand dollars as a ransom for 59 00:03:26.719 --> 00:03:31.759 his kidnapped son. In April nineteenth, President of the United 60 00:03:31.800 --> 00:03:34.800 States Herbert Hoover first suggested the five day work week. 61 00:03:35.759 --> 00:03:36.400 So you can. 62 00:03:36.280 --> 00:03:40.520 Blame him for that. What was it before seven days? 63 00:03:40.759 --> 00:03:43.479 Seventh? It was huh, the were six actually because he 64 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:45.840 was supposed to rest on Sundays, right, okay. 65 00:03:46.280 --> 00:03:50.360 May fourth American gangster Al Capone entered the Atlanta Prison 66 00:03:50.520 --> 00:03:54.240 convicted of income tax evasion. May fifth, Japan and China 67 00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:57.719 signed a piece treaty. May twelfth, the body of famous 68 00:03:57.759 --> 00:04:01.319 aviator Charles Lindberg's kidnap son is found in New Jersey. 69 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:06.599 Ransom didn't do any good, apparently. May twenty first, Amelia 70 00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:10.759 Earhart became the first woman to complete the transatlantic solo flight, 71 00:04:10.840 --> 00:04:15.400 having flown for seventeen hours from Newfoundland, Canada, to Londonderry, 72 00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:20.040 Northern Ireland. June thirteenth, Great Britain and France signed a 73 00:04:20.040 --> 00:04:25.680 peace treaty. July twenty eighth, Douglas MacArthur, acting against US 74 00:04:25.759 --> 00:04:29.800 President Hoover's orders, commanded several attacks on the Bonus Army, 75 00:04:30.279 --> 00:04:33.480 which was World War One veterans in their families, attempting 76 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:36.759 to a victim from their encampment. At least two veterans 77 00:04:36.800 --> 00:04:41.360 died in the attacks, with fifty five injured. July thirty first, 78 00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:46.360 Nazis gained thirty seven percent in the Reichstag elections in Germany, 79 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:49.000 becoming the largest party in parliament by a large margin. 80 00:04:50.399 --> 00:04:54.399 August second, American physicist Carl David Anderson discovered and photographed 81 00:04:54.399 --> 00:05:00.079 a positron the first known anti particle, and Thomas, do 82 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:03.439 you have some other news about physics, don't you? 83 00:05:03.560 --> 00:05:07.360 Well? I saw that the nineteen thirty two Noble in 84 00:05:07.399 --> 00:05:10.800 Physics went to Werner Heisenberg. Ah, he got it a 85 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:17.000 year before Schroedinger. So all your quantum mechanics and atonic theory. 86 00:05:16.720 --> 00:05:18.560 A lot of stuff happened in thirty two, all right. 87 00:05:18.600 --> 00:05:21.439 So August sixth the Venice Film Festival, the world's oldest 88 00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:26.319 film festival, opened for the first time. August thirteenth, President 89 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:29.680 von Hindenburg refused Adolf Hitler when he asked to be 90 00:05:29.720 --> 00:05:34.000 appointed as chancellor, and instead offered Hitler the position of 91 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:37.399 vice Chancellor of Germany. Hitler refused a position and announced 92 00:05:37.399 --> 00:05:40.959 he would oppose every government not headed by himself until 93 00:05:41.000 --> 00:05:47.240 he was chancellor. August sixteenth. John Lindberg, Charles Lindberg's second son, 94 00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:49.720 was born just five months after the kidnapping and death 95 00:05:49.759 --> 00:05:53.319 of his older brother, Charles Lindberg Junior. Almost done. Here 96 00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:56.439 is Stember twenty in his cell at your word. At 97 00:05:56.519 --> 00:06:00.279 jail in Pune, India, Gandhi began a hunger striking against 98 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:05.720 the treatment of India's lowest classes, known as Untouchables. October two, 99 00:06:05.879 --> 00:06:09.560 the New York Yankees won their twelfth consecutive World Series game. 100 00:06:10.839 --> 00:06:11.120 Yay. 101 00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:14.759 As a Red Sox fan, I can still appreciate that. 102 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:19.399 October third, Iraq gained full independence from Britain and joined 103 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:24.560 the League of Nations. October ten, the largest hydroelectric power station, 104 00:06:25.319 --> 00:06:33.120 the niper Dam dni nieper nieper Dam, was first put 105 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:37.000 into operation in the USSR. It's actually Ukraine, but well 106 00:06:37.199 --> 00:06:40.319 it is now, right, always was was it USSR? 107 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:42.680 Then? Well, okay, he was always in Ukraine. Okay. 108 00:06:43.319 --> 00:06:46.800 November sixth, the Prime Minister of Italy, Benito Mussolini, introduced 109 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:51.600 an amnesty decree freeing thousands of convicts. December fifth, Albert 110 00:06:51.639 --> 00:06:54.240 Einstein was granted a visa to enter the United States, 111 00:06:54.279 --> 00:06:58.519 and December twenty seventh, Radio City Music Hall first opened 112 00:06:58.600 --> 00:06:59.399 in New York. 113 00:06:59.680 --> 00:06:59.839 Sit. 114 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:03.759 And that's just a little bit of what happened in 115 00:07:03.839 --> 00:07:07.160 nineteen thirty two. A lot of very famous people that 116 00:07:07.199 --> 00:07:10.120 you know were born in nineteen thirty two. But I'm 117 00:07:10.160 --> 00:07:12.439 not going to go down there. It's sort of the threshold, right, 118 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:13.839 like that's a long time ago now. 119 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:16.240 Yeah. Yeah, I'm working on the space geek out, which 120 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:18.600 will have already been published by the time you heard this, 121 00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:22.439 and I'm still writing the script. And nineteen thirty two 122 00:07:22.480 --> 00:07:27.519 is also when Karl Janski created the first radio telescope, 123 00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:30.439 not because he was an astronomer, but because he was 124 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:34.720 trying to build a directional antenna and he kept having 125 00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:36.920 this hiss no matter where he pointed the antenna, so 126 00:07:36.959 --> 00:07:39.279 the directional antennae could tell which way like thunderstorms and 127 00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:42.800 stuff were because lightning strikes have created a radio wave 128 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:44.920 that he could say, Okay, well the lightning coming from there, 129 00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:47.800 but there was this hiss that was coming from everywhere. Wow. 130 00:07:47.839 --> 00:07:49.639 And it took a while to finally figure out that 131 00:07:49.639 --> 00:07:52.120 it was the hiss of the universe. Yeah, and it's 132 00:07:52.120 --> 00:07:55.399 actually the cosmic background radiation from the Big Bang. Wow. 133 00:07:55.439 --> 00:07:59.000 And that he ended up building the first radio telescope 134 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:00.519 just trying to figure out what was going on, an 135 00:08:00.680 --> 00:08:02.759 entirely new class of astronomy. So cool. 136 00:08:02.920 --> 00:08:05.079 Yeah, you got to have an imagination to do that 137 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:06.199 kind of stuff, can't. 138 00:08:06.279 --> 00:08:08.519 Just like he had a problem. Yeah, the problem is 139 00:08:08.560 --> 00:08:12.800 what's that noise? What is that? Okay, Richard, who's talking 140 00:08:12.800 --> 00:08:14.720 to us? He got a comment, Yeah, grabbed a comment 141 00:08:14.720 --> 00:08:16.399 on off the show eighteen fifty eight of Moth we 142 00:08:16.439 --> 00:08:19.680 do with Thomas back in August of twenty three, so 143 00:08:19.800 --> 00:08:21.720 a little over a year ago, and that was the 144 00:08:21.879 --> 00:08:24.920 leveling up your architecture game conversation. Seem to have a 145 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:27.240 theme with your shows, Thomas. And there was a bunch 146 00:08:27.279 --> 00:08:28.480 of good comments on the show, and this one comes 147 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:30.399 from Laslow. He says, the more shows I listen to 148 00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:33.840 about software architecture, the less I'm sure about what it's about. 149 00:08:34.639 --> 00:08:37.360 I've seen great examples of software architecture and designs, but 150 00:08:37.399 --> 00:08:40.399 I've never seen them evolving from an architect's point of view. 151 00:08:40.840 --> 00:08:43.279 A big bowl of mud never starts at the beginning 152 00:08:43.320 --> 00:08:45.480 of a software's lifetime, but a couple of years later, 153 00:08:45.480 --> 00:08:48.200 when the architect has left the project, new developers are 154 00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:50.360 not fully onboarded, and the clients realize they can push 155 00:08:50.360 --> 00:08:53.840 your requests that were previously quote too hard or too 156 00:08:53.879 --> 00:08:57.960 expensive to implement you and sometimes junior developers cross the 157 00:08:57.960 --> 00:09:00.360 line in previous design reels to be clients happy, making 158 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:04.960 the application architecture rot. I'd like to see an architecture 159 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:08.440 that stands the test of time. Hm hmm. You know, 160 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:13.600 architecture isn't a thing right. It's a set of ideas 161 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:15.360 that have to be implemented by people, and as long 162 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:18.200 as people don't implement them, you can take any building 163 00:09:18.279 --> 00:09:21.360 and stick something horrible onto it and damage its architecture. 164 00:09:21.519 --> 00:09:24.120 Same with any piece of software. The only way architecture 165 00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:26.039 stands the test of time is that people choose to 166 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:29.320 care for and pretty much leave it alone. Well, no, 167 00:09:29.519 --> 00:09:32.639 I mean challenge it, improve it. I could. It makes 168 00:09:32.679 --> 00:09:34.480 sense when you have a feature that's a problem in 169 00:09:34.519 --> 00:09:38.120 the current architecture, say, is the architecture wrong, Like, is 170 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:40.240 there a way to press against the architecture to still 171 00:09:40.279 --> 00:09:43.720 get some of the benefits of it, of the extreme design? Well, 172 00:09:44.279 --> 00:09:47.519 we do that all the time anyway, and some of 173 00:09:47.639 --> 00:09:50.240 us just admit to it is compromise, right. No, you know, 174 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:54.440 all ideal architectures can't be built. It's always a depression 175 00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:55.240 of less than I do. 176 00:09:55.960 --> 00:09:58.080 You always end up with an architecture. It's whether you 177 00:09:58.159 --> 00:10:01.840 made it explicit decisions or implicitly accepted the decisions along 178 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:04.440 the way. And if you just keep letting it rot, 179 00:10:04.600 --> 00:10:07.320 as they said on the comment, then yeah, you'll end 180 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:08.879 up with the big ball of mud and you won't 181 00:10:08.919 --> 00:10:12.799 have a nice, clean architecture, but you'll still have an architecture. 182 00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:15.960 Unfortunately. Yeah, nobody makes a ball of mud, it just emerges. 183 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:19.720 So Las Well, thank you so much for your comment. 184 00:10:19.759 --> 00:10:21.120 And a copy of music co Buy is on its 185 00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:22.279 way to you. And if you'd like a copy of 186 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:24.039 music code By, I write a comment on the website 187 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:26.559 at dot net rocks dot com or on the facebooks 188 00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:28.159 we publish every show. There to be comment there and 189 00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:29.360 I read it on the show. We'll send you a 190 00:10:29.399 --> 00:10:30.279 copy of music code By. 191 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:34.480 And we're also on all the social media's we're on. 192 00:10:34.639 --> 00:10:36.720 We've been on x Twitter for a long time, at 193 00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:41.279 Carl Franklin at Rich Campbell, and we're also on blue Sky. 194 00:10:41.559 --> 00:10:45.200 I'm at Carl Franklin bsky dot app, and I'm Richcampbell 195 00:10:45.240 --> 00:10:48.919 at besky dot app or and is it app? Is 196 00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:50.639 it app or is it social I don't even know 197 00:10:51.039 --> 00:10:52.200 whatever blue sky. 198 00:10:52.159 --> 00:10:54.559 Dot, bsky dot net or dot whatever. 199 00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:57.000 Yeah, bsky dot app. It is bsky dot. 200 00:10:57.159 --> 00:11:00.519 Okay, good because you know, I just pull it up 201 00:11:00.559 --> 00:11:01.480 in the browser and it's there. 202 00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:03.600 I don't really pay attention much anymore of the URL. 203 00:11:03.639 --> 00:11:05.759 But anyway, doing all that stuff through buffer these days, 204 00:11:05.799 --> 00:11:08.759 I you known't actually see the regular sites much. What's 205 00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:12.320 buffer pray tell She's a tool for looking across all 206 00:11:12.360 --> 00:11:16.240 the different social media's that you're dealing with, and that's 207 00:11:16.279 --> 00:11:17.759 how we get all the posts out for all the 208 00:11:17.799 --> 00:11:20.759 shows I need that. It's a good little product. Yeah, 209 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:22.200 nothing bad to say about it. I switched to it 210 00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:24.120 attle while ago, and I've been very happy and it 211 00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:24.840 works with them all. 212 00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:28.440 And we're also on macedon. I'm Carl Franklin at tech 213 00:11:28.519 --> 00:11:29.679 Hub dot Social. 214 00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:31.919 And I'm rich Gamble at mass it on social, So. 215 00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:34.240 You know, get in touch with us, ask us questions 216 00:11:34.279 --> 00:11:37.360 and you may get a free copy of music to 217 00:11:37.399 --> 00:11:40.600 Code by as well. All right, Well, that last voice 218 00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:45.159 you heard there before Richard was Thomas Betts and he 219 00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:52.440 is a laureate software architect at Blackbod baud Blackbod, the 220 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:56.240 leading software provider for social impact. In his spare time, 221 00:11:56.279 --> 00:11:59.919 he contributes to InfoQ dot com and helps organize Q 222 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:02.799 on software development conferences. 223 00:12:02.840 --> 00:12:03.600 This is interesting. 224 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:06.320 Credits dot NetRocks for inspiring him to give back to 225 00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:11.600 the software community as a writer, podcast host, and international speaker. 226 00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:14.000 Well that's nice. How you doing doing well? 227 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:16.879 Yeah? I realized that we don't talk about the stuff 228 00:12:16.919 --> 00:12:20.159 I do with InfoQ, but it's kind of my side project. 229 00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:22.440 That's the job I've had the longest now for like 230 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:23.720 eight or almost nine years. 231 00:12:24.039 --> 00:12:24.320 Wow. 232 00:12:24.919 --> 00:12:27.840 So yeah, being able to speak locally at a developer 233 00:12:27.879 --> 00:12:32.720 conference and now I spoken internationally and organize a conference. 234 00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:36.159 So kind of following you guys the example. You know, 235 00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:38.360 it started with writing into comments I think, like I 236 00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:41.240 don't know, two thousand and seven. Yeah, just to join 237 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:43.279 the conversation and give back to the community. 238 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:43.960 Yeah. 239 00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:45.759 Yeah, we've been friends for a long time. 240 00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:46.440 Yeah. 241 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:51.159 And so your your topic these days is architectural intelligence, 242 00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:54.799 which you say is the next AI, meaning the next 243 00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:56.759 AI acronym, right, exactly. 244 00:12:56.799 --> 00:12:58.720 So let's define what that is. 245 00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:01.159 Well, I want to you know, right now, we've got 246 00:13:01.240 --> 00:13:05.159 everyone's wanting to put AI on everything. But I think 247 00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:07.799 we're in that Arthur C. Clark moment where any sufficiently 248 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:11.159 advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Oh yeah, and that 249 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:14.519 right now, any software we don't understand, we just call AI. 250 00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:15.480 Right. 251 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:19.159 We don't know what it is, but everyone's asking for it. 252 00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:21.600 The CEOs are asking for it. The product owners are saying, 253 00:13:21.639 --> 00:13:23.639 I need a AI in my products. We look innovative 254 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:27.200 customers aren't asking for it, but give it a couple 255 00:13:27.240 --> 00:13:29.360 of years and the expectation will be there. Like, why 256 00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:31.279 it doesn't this have AI? It must not be modern? 257 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:34.440 So Thomas real quick. I play in a band and 258 00:13:34.480 --> 00:13:37.480 it's a ten piece band and it's awesome, and you know, 259 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:41.000 after we do a particularly great tune, I will say, 260 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:44.360 this band does not use AI. 261 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:47.519 Yeah. 262 00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:51.200 It's kind of like when you get rice cakes and 263 00:13:51.240 --> 00:13:56.200 they say fat free. You know, it's like, well, duh. 264 00:13:55.759 --> 00:13:59.480 But everybody thinks that anything like any kind of pedal 265 00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:02.639 that we're using to change our voice or any kind 266 00:14:02.639 --> 00:14:07.720 of sound. You know, software is AI just because it's 267 00:14:07.759 --> 00:14:11.240 good and it might use digital signal processing or whatever, 268 00:14:11.240 --> 00:14:12.080 but it's not AI. 269 00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:12.519 Right. 270 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:15.600 I think we call stuff AI until we have something better, 271 00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:17.000 and then we call it computer science. 272 00:14:17.399 --> 00:14:17.519 Ye. 273 00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:20.120 Right, we have a product and a tool and a name, 274 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:23.759 and if we go back to you know, like AI. 275 00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:27.000 When we talk about AI, mostly what we mean is 276 00:14:27.639 --> 00:14:32.240 generative AI, not general AI, not artificial general intelligence. That's 277 00:14:32.759 --> 00:14:35.960 data and the terminator and other characters from science fiction. 278 00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:38.120 I don't think the average person even thinks that far. 279 00:14:38.159 --> 00:14:40.440 They're just looking at large language models right right. 280 00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:42.799 Right right, and genhi is large language. 281 00:14:42.440 --> 00:14:44.879 Model is one of them. But you're doing gen ai 282 00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:48.600 disservice if you can, you know, keep it scoped into LMS. 283 00:14:49.159 --> 00:14:51.159 It's a bunch of other things. It's been you know, 284 00:14:51.200 --> 00:14:53.679 that's been going on for a decade. LLLM is only 285 00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:56.440 kind of detonated with chat GPT in twenty two. Like 286 00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:59.600 this is all. This current storm is pretty recent. And 287 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:02.039 anything I've learned from the shows we've done recently is 288 00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:06.080 that the actual smart machine learning people in this space 289 00:15:06.279 --> 00:15:10.480 are pretty offended. What do you do it because a 290 00:15:10.480 --> 00:15:13.279 lot of this stuff is sloppy machine learning. 291 00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:16.399 Yeah, and I'll I'll just talk about jen ai. In 292 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:20.039 terms of images, I can spot a chat GPT generated 293 00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:21.399 image a mile away now. 294 00:15:21.399 --> 00:15:22.720 It just has a look to it. 295 00:15:23.480 --> 00:15:29.279 And I'm I'm offended when I'm scrolling through Facebook and 296 00:15:29.320 --> 00:15:34.480 I see a picture of this idyllic house, you know, 297 00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:38.480 with perfect lighting with waterfalls going through it, and you know, 298 00:15:38.559 --> 00:15:42.759 there's no comment. It just says ah or something like that, 299 00:15:42.840 --> 00:15:45.559 you know, and and there's a million views and a 300 00:15:45.639 --> 00:15:51.559 million likes, and it's clearly generated. It doesn't exist, and 301 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:54.600 there's no there's no place, there's no date. It's just 302 00:15:54.799 --> 00:15:57.720 like a bucolic setting, right, and. 303 00:15:58.039 --> 00:16:00.879 Half of those million likes are the that are liking 304 00:16:00.919 --> 00:16:02.639 the thing that the other bot created, so. 305 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:06.120 And people that use them to take pictures of themselves 306 00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:07.519 and turn them into AI pictures. 307 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:09.240 No, stop that. 308 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:13.200 I like that you brought up like traditional machine learning, 309 00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:16.960 like we used to call what's now just established machine 310 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:19.559 learning and an mL model. Like for a while that 311 00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:22.440 sounded like AI, and then we move the AI a 312 00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:24.360 little further. It's that marketing term that just kind of 313 00:16:24.399 --> 00:16:24.960 is the umbrella. 314 00:16:25.399 --> 00:16:28.840 Yeah, I've always said it coined it as artificial intelligence 315 00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:30.519 is what you call it when it doesn't work. Yeah, 316 00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:32.200 so as it does work, it'll get a new name. 317 00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:34.799 But I think there is that correlation between a large 318 00:16:34.879 --> 00:16:39.639 language model and other machine learning models, Like the difference 319 00:16:39.720 --> 00:16:42.399 is in the algorithm inside. And if you're not a 320 00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:45.720 data scientist, you probably don't understand. But I still, because 321 00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:48.159 I don't understand the inside, I treat it as you know, 322 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:50.600 a function box. I put it in an input, I 323 00:16:50.600 --> 00:16:54.159 get an output. So if I'm doing image recognition, I 324 00:16:54.200 --> 00:16:56.879 send it to my image recognition machine learning model, and 325 00:16:56.919 --> 00:16:58.840 it says this is a cat, this is a dog, 326 00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:01.519 or comments on the on a block well. 327 00:17:01.399 --> 00:17:02.919 And it's the whole point. I have an API. I 328 00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:04.799 don't want to know. I don't know how to create 329 00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:06.720 a cryptographic key, but I do know how to call 330 00:17:06.759 --> 00:17:08.759 an API that gives it to me exactly. 331 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:10.720 And so these are the things that software engineers know 332 00:17:10.759 --> 00:17:13.720 how to use, Like this is some little function box 333 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:16.720 and I can just call it, and here's my input 334 00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:19.960 and what's my expected output. I think what you need 335 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:22.720 to understand with large language models is you give it 336 00:17:22.759 --> 00:17:26.240 a series of tokens, a bunch of words. We call 337 00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:29.000 them tokens, but token might be part of a word. 338 00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:30.960 That's some of the semantics need to learn. 339 00:17:31.039 --> 00:17:33.000 But I think it's a you know, the joke is 340 00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:35.799 a tokenization. I think it's the cleverer attack here, right, 341 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:39.440 Like the stochastic parative spitting language back is not that impressive, 342 00:17:39.799 --> 00:17:41.920 But the fact that we've come up with a strategy 343 00:17:42.039 --> 00:17:46.359 for converting language, virtually any language, into a set of 344 00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:49.839 numeric symbols that, by the way, cross between each other, 345 00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:55.519 like it's the Babelfish man, Like you've almost cracked universal translation. 346 00:17:55.440 --> 00:17:58.480 Right, because that's that's what tokenization is. Like, here are 347 00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:01.480 all I want to take this string of characters and 348 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:04.079 turn it into a bunch of floats, and it's not 349 00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:06.880 the asking number of like this is an A and 350 00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:09.400 this is a B. Like this word or part of 351 00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:13.119 a word has this representation in a multi dimensional array, 352 00:18:13.799 --> 00:18:16.359 and that's all it is. It's a lot of math, right, 353 00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:19.920 it's all statistics. And when you feedsie into a large 354 00:18:19.960 --> 00:18:23.079 language model, here is my series of tokens, here's my 355 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:27.480 words and my sentence, and all it gives back is one. 356 00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:31.000 It just predicts the single next word. And I think 357 00:18:31.079 --> 00:18:34.559 that's the mystery people don't recognize, is it takes that 358 00:18:34.599 --> 00:18:37.559 one like, well, that's not useful. And you watch chat 359 00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:40.640 GPT and especially the early versions, you watched it type 360 00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:43.000 out very slowly. What it's doing is it's feeding that 361 00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:46.599 one token back in adding to you, and that keeps 362 00:18:46.599 --> 00:18:50.880 building up the context that auto regression eventually produces a 363 00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:53.640 series of words that say, oh, the next part of 364 00:18:53.839 --> 00:18:56.519 the sentence is likely to be this, yeah, and it 365 00:18:56.519 --> 00:18:58.039 looks like magic yeah. 366 00:18:57.799 --> 00:19:01.440 Well and them Importantly, it can be interpreted as intelligence 367 00:19:01.480 --> 00:19:03.640 where none exists. Yeah. 368 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:07.039 And this goes to if we look at the you know, 369 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:10.519 the learning aspect of it, like we're fine calling it 370 00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:13.960 machine learning because we start with training data. For any 371 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:15.920 machine learning model, you give it a set of training data. 372 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:19.279 Maybe that's your sales data for the last you know, quarter, 373 00:19:19.640 --> 00:19:22.079 or it's pictures of dogs and cats. In our case, 374 00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:25.559 it's just words. Have this thing read everything you can 375 00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:27.960 find and train it on that. So you give a 376 00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:30.039 lot of training data that's words, and then it's really 377 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:34.400 good at understanding words, but it's still just predicting the 378 00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:38.039 next word. And when we see something that looks like 379 00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:41.279 a human probably did that, and we don't understand how 380 00:19:41.319 --> 00:19:45.079 a computer could do that, we think, I don't understand it, it 381 00:19:45.079 --> 00:19:47.519 must be intelligent, and we're applying that where it just 382 00:19:47.559 --> 00:19:48.119 doesn't exist. 383 00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:49.880 Well. Plus, and humans are prone to that sort of 384 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:53.440 thing anyway, right, Yeah, heck, we think our dogs understand Yeah, 385 00:19:54.079 --> 00:19:58.599 and we talk to our cars, which especially weird this 386 00:19:58.680 --> 00:20:03.119 tendency to ANSWERPROMORPHI. It's like, it's oh, it's necessary. I mean, 387 00:20:04.359 --> 00:20:06.240 is it necessary or is it a weakness? 388 00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:06.759 Oh? 389 00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:07.319 I think so. 390 00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:11.200 I think it's necessary for us to be able to 391 00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:15.640 have some sort of relationship with the thing that we're anthropomorphizing. 392 00:20:16.039 --> 00:20:21.319 It's easier for us if we give it human at attributes. 393 00:20:21.559 --> 00:20:22.880 I think it makes it easier. 394 00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:26.279 Architects are good at coming up with metaphors to describe 395 00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:28.799 stuff and people. How is someone going to relate to 396 00:20:28.839 --> 00:20:32.240 the software? How do I translate this complex idea into 397 00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:34.680 a design that my engineers are going to be able 398 00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:37.480 to implement or the users are going to understand? And 399 00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:40.480 things like the desktop on my computer, well that used 400 00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:43.240 to be analogous to the desktop where I'm setting the 401 00:20:43.240 --> 00:20:44.759