Speaker 1: Recorded on location. In September twenty twenty five, I was
Speaker 1: lucky enough to interview Amy, the paranormal host and historian
Speaker 1: at Dudley Castle. This interview explores the castle's long and
Speaker 1: often brutal history, uncovering the surprising connections between Dudley Castle
Speaker 1: and some of the most colorful and at times bloody
Speaker 1: periods in British history. We also delve deep into the
Speaker 1: ghostly encounters and paranormal events which have solidified Dudley Castle
Speaker 1: as being one of the most haunted locations in Great Britain.
Speaker 1: Now this interview ended up being so rich that it's
Speaker 1: been split into three parts. In Part one, we focus
Speaker 1: on the history and the people who once lived within
Speaker 1: these walls and walked these beautiful grounds, and we wet
Speaker 1: your appetite with a few ghostly tales along the way.
Speaker 1: In Part two, we dive much deeper into the ghosts,
Speaker 1: legends and strange happenings associated with the castle. And in
Speaker 1: Part three, Amy takes me out on location around the
Speaker 1: castle and its grounds, visiting some of the remarkable places
Speaker 1: where spirits and ghosts are said to rome. So join
Speaker 1: me now for Part one of my return to Dudley Castle.
Speaker 1: A huge welcome from the shadowed heart of the Black Country,
Speaker 1: where stone remembers and silent speaks. We're honored to be
Speaker 1: here at Dudley Castle, an ancient fortress packed with sorrow, legend,
Speaker 1: and lingering spirits. This place is no stranger to the uncanny.
Speaker 1: The mournful gray lady, believed to be Dorothy Bowmont, wanders
Speaker 1: the chapel ruins, denied her final wishes and bound by grief.
Speaker 1: The phantom cavalier patrols the battlements, his plumed helmet and
Speaker 1: ghostly presence of relic of the Civil War, And in
Speaker 1: the quietest corners, the cries of the screaming child echo
Speaker 1: through time, chilling the bones of even the bravest of souls.
Speaker 1: I'm here today with Amy Hickman, who has been incredibly
Speaker 1: kind to help organize this amazing opportunity for the show.
Speaker 1: Amy is Dudley Castle's resident historian and seasoned paranormal host
Speaker 1: who have spent many years exploring the secrets of this
Speaker 1: incredible site. Together, we'll be talking about the castle's dramatic past,
Speaker 1: the spirits that may still walk its grounds, and what
Speaker 1: lies behind some of these lockdoors which the public never
Speaker 1: gets to see. We've also recently launched Haunted UK Fiction,
Speaker 1: a podcast for original fictional, paranormal and supernatural tales, perfect
Speaker 1: for stories born in places like Dudley Castle, where every
Speaker 1: stone has a secret. So whether you're a believer, a skeptic,
Speaker 1: or simply drawn to the mystery, we invite you to
Speaker 1: listen closely because here in the ruins of Dudley Castle,
Speaker 1: the past never sleeps and the spirits are always listening.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for welcoming us here today, Amy.
Speaker 1: We find ourselves based in the incredibly impressive undercroft, and
Speaker 1: with us we have two stone We have two stone
Speaker 1: coffins to keep us company. So I'd like to start
Speaker 1: off by asking you, for those who are unfamiliar with
Speaker 1: Dudley Castle, can you walk us through its origin story,
Speaker 1: when it was built and what was its original purpose?
Speaker 2: Okay, so we believe that he was built around ten
Speaker 2: seventy ten seventy one. So you're going back to the
Speaker 2: Norman conquest in ten sixty six and William the Conqueror
Speaker 2: comes over to England. He conquers England but not Wales
Speaker 2: or Scotland, so he puts the steel ring around the
Speaker 2: court the country to protect it from invasions. Dudley Castle
Speaker 2: is part of that chain that was actually put round. Originally,
Speaker 2: he sort of left Saxons in charge and the guy
Speaker 2: that had this area was called Edwin and Mercier, and
Speaker 2: he left them in charge. As long as they swore
Speaker 2: felty to him, they could keep the lands, keep the grounds. Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: Edwin got it into his head that he's going to
Speaker 2: marry one of William the Conqueror's daughters. And basically William
Speaker 2: the conker like, you're not marrying a daughter, so he rebelled.
Speaker 2: Edwin rebelled against William and was murdered by his own
Speaker 2: supporters as he was trying to leave for Scotland. Dudley
Speaker 2: as the part of Mercy. The grounds were taken and
Speaker 2: divided up between william supporters and he sort of cut
Speaker 2: this part off because originally this part of Dudley would
Speaker 2: have been in wood Seton and Sedgeley, and he cut
Speaker 2: this end off and gave it to one of his
Speaker 2: most trusted knights, who was Hanscorffed of Pickiney, who took
Speaker 2: part in the Battle of Eistings, and he'd got also
Speaker 2: given him another eighty manners of land throughout the country,
Speaker 2: and he basically said to Hanscorf, right, you've got a
Speaker 2: nice big ill there, build your castle there.
Speaker 3: And that's why he did right fantastic.
Speaker 1: What major historical events have unfolded within or around the
Speaker 1: castle and has it ever seen in conflict and scene?
Speaker 2: It has, firstly in the eleven hundreds part of the
Speaker 2: anarchy which is th all between King Stephen and Empress Matilda.
Speaker 2: Empress Matilda was the daughter of Henry. The first he
Speaker 2: passed away, he'd asked his supporters to swear failty to
Speaker 2: her and they did. Unfortunately, she was a lady. They
Speaker 2: didn't want a lady on the throne, so his nephew,
Speaker 2: Stephen of Bulloy, he actually took the throne and there
Speaker 2: was a big civil war in the country. Dudley Castle
Speaker 2: stood for Empress Matilda, as well as most of the houses,
Speaker 2: most of the big places around the Midlands they stood
Speaker 2: for Empress Matilda. King Stephen did come to Dudley with
Speaker 2: his whole army to attack the castle. Castle was probably
Speaker 2: one of the first that was already being refortified into
Speaker 2: stone in the country. He attacked the castle, couldn't get in,
Speaker 2: got a bit knocked went and burnt the town down
Speaker 2: and stolen the cattle, marched off to Shrewsbury and burnt
Speaker 2: Shrewsbury Castle down. That's how we know that this was
Speaker 2: probably been refortified into stone, because if he's burning Shrewsbury,
Speaker 2: we couldn't burn this chance. Sorry, it was a stone
Speaker 2: castle by them. And also there was two sieges during
Speaker 2: the English Civil War, so Dudley Castle was a Royalist castle.
Speaker 2: The barons and the earls have always been quite loyal
Speaker 2: to the Crown, well most of them have been quite
Speaker 2: loyal to the cow But we stood for Charles the first.
Speaker 2: After the English Civil War, any castle that had stood
Speaker 2: for the Royalists had to be knocked down. Dudley was
Speaker 2: part of that. Gentlemen we actually surrendered to was General Beretton.
Speaker 2: He actually wrote to Cromwell and said, Dudley Castle's really strong.
Speaker 2: Dow'nknock it down. We can use it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Cromwell was like, now he's got to go. He wrote
Speaker 2: actually twice, possibly three times to Cromwell to try and
Speaker 2: save dudleyy. But Cromwell's adamant he gotta go. We got
Speaker 2: away with quite a lot because they only took the
Speaker 2: two first terrors there and some of the outer walls
Speaker 2: and a few bits of the gate. After that, it
Speaker 2: was like, you can never be refortified, and that's still
Speaker 2: true today. He can't out of Parliament.
Speaker 3: That's fascinating.
Speaker 2: It can't be refortified. And he sort of like said, well,
Speaker 2: we'll just leave it, and left it at that. Burritton
Speaker 2: actually was trying to marry two of his daughters into
Speaker 2: the Ward family who owned the castle. So the theory is,
Speaker 2: you don't want to knock down eat in Law's house
Speaker 2: if you can help it, So that's sort of that's
Speaker 2: why he wanted to keep it. But there was two sieges.
Speaker 2: The first siege was alleviated by a troop same by
Speaker 2: Charles the first because he thought I lived Dudley Castle.
Speaker 2: It was actually relieved by the troop of four thousand
Speaker 2: soldiers led by Prince Rupert. And the second siege we
Speaker 2: surrendered because the cause was lost, so as our troops
Speaker 2: walked out. But Dudley Castle has never been took in
Speaker 2: a battle. It's never it's never lost in a battle.
Speaker 2: It's never been took. It's too strong. That's fantastic of
Speaker 2: the height.
Speaker 1: I am going to veer off question for a minute,
Speaker 1: because I've been chatting away to Amy for quite a
Speaker 1: while as we've been setting up and in this wonderfully
Speaker 1: impressive part of the castle, and you mentioned something really
Speaker 1: fascinating to me about back then, hundreds and hundreds of
Speaker 1: years ago, it was always the male line that carried
Speaker 1: that carried power, that carried it through. You were telling
Speaker 1: me about Dudley was really really specially in that sense
Speaker 1: because it was it was more of a female line
Speaker 1: that brought the power.
Speaker 2: Okay, So the ladies of the castle were quite powerful ladies.
Speaker 2: Trevis Pagnell started it marrying quite powerful women the trend
Speaker 2: of marriage when he married Isabella Beaumont, who was the
Speaker 2: daughter of the Earl of Paris. So she was quite
Speaker 2: a big powerful figure herself. She'd been previously married and
Speaker 2: he was chosen to be her second husband, right, Okay,
Speaker 2: I mean she was really powerful and she would have
Speaker 2: had links to the crown. Later on, there was an
Speaker 2: Isabella did Shelton who married into the family. She married
Speaker 2: one of the Suttons. She then took the baronet for
Speaker 2: thirty seven years and ruled it on her own. She
Speaker 2: married a second time once her husband had died, but
Speaker 2: she kept the baron Ray through her son and her grandson.
Speaker 2: And it was her great grandson, John Sutton the Sis
Speaker 2: that actually took the baron Ray when she passed away.
Speaker 2: So really yeah, yeah, I mean John did. When John
Speaker 2: dis Summery's father, Doyed Roger the Lady, his wife Agnes
Speaker 2: actually became the baroness. And because John was underaged to
Speaker 2: take the baron Ray, so she kept it till her
Speaker 2: son was of age. Yea, And I mean Isabella just
Speaker 2: kept it. She was like, now, but he's having it
Speaker 2: on keeping it. It's mining Yeah, And she actually kept
Speaker 2: him and her husband actually changed his name to Dudley.
Speaker 2: He was actually probably one of the Fisher family, which
Speaker 2: was a big family in the area, but he changed
Speaker 2: his name to Dudley rather than her changed her name. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and Dudley you could it was you could inherit it
Speaker 2: through the female line as well. So Francis Sutton, he
Speaker 2: was the granddaughter of Edward Sutton. She inherited the baron Ray.
Speaker 2: She later married a Ward and that's how the family
Speaker 2: come into the Ward family. But it's the women that
Speaker 2: were painful.
Speaker 1: Wow. I just found that I found that was just
Speaker 1: really really intriguing, especially for that kind of time. We
Speaker 1: heard a load of a lot of figures you've just mentioned,
Speaker 1: But who were some of the most influential figures in
Speaker 1: the castle's history.
Speaker 2: Well, obviously Anscoff was probably one of the most influential
Speaker 2: figures because he built the first castle, even built a
Speaker 2: modern bailey castle here, and we've still retained the shape
Speaker 2: coming down through the generation. She've got people like John
Speaker 2: Sutton the six, who is quite an un unrecognized figure.
Speaker 2: He was a fantastic politician. He was house steward for
Speaker 2: Henry the Fifth. He brought Henry the fifth body back
Speaker 2: from France when Emory the fifth died. He was in
Speaker 2: charge of the terror. He was comfortable with the terror
Speaker 2: London at the age of eighty seven. He was eighty six.
Speaker 2: He died. He died when he was eighty seven. So
Speaker 2: he was one of our longest serving baron. And he's
Speaker 2: such an underrated figure technically terrible soldier. Every time he
Speaker 2: went on a battlefield he got caught or injured, but
Speaker 2: he knew how to change. He knew how to change
Speaker 2: when it was and how to go with the flow.
Speaker 2: Because he started off as a Lancastrian, became a Yorkist,
Speaker 2: went back to the Lancastria, became a Yorkist, and then
Speaker 2: went back to the Lancastrians. He's probably the only figure
Speaker 2: in history that had a pension from both Richard the
Speaker 2: third and Henry the seventh. He was a really good politician. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but he's an unrecognized figure. And then, of course the
Speaker 2: main figure was John Dudley, Duke, and also Blong, who
Speaker 2: sort of put Lady Giant Ray on the throne. He
Speaker 2: was probably our most influential baron ever because he was
Speaker 2: in charge of the country. He was looking after the
Speaker 2: country for Edward the six, the boy king after the death,
Speaker 2: and obviously he had a major influence on Dudley. It
Speaker 2: shouldn't have had the castle in all hones stay because
Speaker 2: he sort of condi his cousin. He arranged a couple
Speaker 2: of mortgages on the castle, and then his cousin, who
Speaker 2: was bad with money, said on pie. He was like,
Speaker 2: you go, I'm taking the castle. And he took the castle,
Speaker 2: and he started a program of rebuilding because he wanted
Speaker 2: to make it more of a palace than an actual castle,
Speaker 2: and he built the bottom end of the castle which
Speaker 2: we now today is that the Sharrington Range, But he
Speaker 2: actually called the new build and he was just about
Speaker 2: to change the chapel upstairs. He started to convert the
Speaker 2: chapel from a Catholic chapel to a president chapel. When
Speaker 2: he fell from power and was executed in fifteen fifty three.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: Okay, but he was probably our most influential baron and
Speaker 2: probably one most people will know because they know the
Speaker 2: story of Lady Jane Green.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned the Sharrrington Ranch. Ye, the castle suffered
Speaker 1: a devastating fire in seventeen hundreds, didn't it. How much
Speaker 1: of the original structure remains to die? And what do
Speaker 1: we know about what was lost there?
Speaker 2: To be fair, we have, like I said to you before,
Speaker 2: before before you get to the fire, you had the slighting. Yeah,
Speaker 2: the very first castle, which was the Motte and Bailey.
Speaker 2: The only thing that remained is that reminds is the
Speaker 2: mott the man where the keep stands. That's all that's
Speaker 2: left from there. But that what would have been twelve
Speaker 2: feet ohier than it is to die.
Speaker 1: Just to cut in there. So the original matt. As
Speaker 1: I was walking up to the castle, you've got animals
Speaker 1: grazing on them on the actual mat and would that would.
Speaker 2: Be perfectly natural, That would be perfectly natural. There was
Speaker 2: probably animals. There've been definitely animals in the courtyard because
Speaker 2: in ten eighty six we were in the Doomsday Book.
Speaker 2: This is one of the first castles to be named
Speaker 2: in the Doomsday Book, and we know there was things
Speaker 2: in the courtyard, and we know there was probably animals,
Speaker 2: So there would have been animals more than lightly grazes
Speaker 2: on the bank. But when they took the wooden castle
Speaker 2: down to make the stonecastle. To put the stone castle up,
Speaker 2: they had to take twelve feet off the top wow
Speaker 2: of the bank to take the way to the stone.
Speaker 2: So if you're thinking Dudley Castle was twelve feet higher
Speaker 2: than it is, really to die a lot of what
Speaker 2: you say, I mean the slighting took away quite a lot.
Speaker 2: It took away the first two terrors. It took a
Speaker 2: right parts of the Triple Guy. Why it took away
Speaker 2: a building that was next to this one, because this
Speaker 2: one was quite a secretive room. And the doorway where
Speaker 2: we came in wouldn't have been there'd have been a
Speaker 2: straight run wall. You'd have come through the bat there's
Speaker 2: an arch would have been an arch in the back,
Speaker 2: and you'd have come straight there from upstairs, which is
Speaker 2: the chapel. This is why this was more than likely
Speaker 2: the crypt of the castle.
Speaker 3: Really yeah, okay.
Speaker 2: The foire basically devastated the Sharrington Range and the chapel upstairs.
Speaker 2: You can see outside the big chapel window when we
Speaker 2: did the archaeology digs that we did in the eighties
Speaker 2: and nineties, that did flow in the glass from the
Speaker 2: window upstairs, and it was he had the coat of
Speaker 2: arms of the Summary family on it. Because some but
Speaker 2: one piece more or less back together they managed to
Speaker 2: give peace to all back together. He devastated that. He devastated,
Speaker 2: Like said, the Sharrington Range. The fire did a lot
Speaker 2: of damage, but it was only confined down here. It
Speaker 2: was nothing to do with the keep. But there is
Speaker 2: quite a lot of the original structure here. There is
Speaker 2: because there Sharrington Range would have been built on on
Speaker 2: the same layout as the original Norman manor house that
Speaker 2: was here, because there was a manor house here. Because
Speaker 2: Jovespadal had to knock down the keep his keep in
Speaker 2: the eleven hundreds, because he took part in a rebellion. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and it was for a hundred years there was just
Speaker 2: a manor house on the site. So we know there
Speaker 2: was a Norman manor house and one of them walls
Speaker 2: in the Shannington Range is a recycled war and that's
Speaker 2: the dates from that original.
Speaker 3: Right, Okay, So it was repurpose.
Speaker 2: It was repurposed. It's in the butchery, so we know
Speaker 2: that war is from the original Norman manor house. So
Speaker 2: although we did do a lot a lot of damage,
Speaker 2: a lot of the structure is still here.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 1: So have there been any surprising archaeological finds on the grounds, artifacts,
Speaker 1: human remains or structures that changed what we know about
Speaker 1: the castle? I did also, and you addressed this for
Speaker 1: me a little bit earlier. I also heard of rumor
Speaker 1: that one of the world's first condoms was discovered here
Speaker 1: and now is a muse It's now in a museum,
Speaker 1: So is that true?
Speaker 2: That is true? There is actually six six condoms for
Speaker 2: we believe in the museum in and Amsterdam, and we
Speaker 2: believe too maybe with the artifacts they had kept to
Speaker 2: Timley haare right, So yeah that yeah, they were from
Speaker 2: the Civil War era. So of sixteen hundred sixteen forty
Speaker 2: onwards and they were pigskin, pig intestine.
Speaker 3: Intestine, okay, sense lovely, yeah, yeah, So.
Speaker 1: What do we know about what was found any archaeological finds.
Speaker 2: What we found a lot of animal bone, believe in
Speaker 2: a lot of animal bones. The area that was excavating
Speaker 2: mainly was the keep and to the side which would
Speaker 2: have been Dudley Castle. We've got the automoat, but there
Speaker 2: was an internal moat right, so it cut the keep
Speaker 2: off from the courtyard motes now been John Dudley had
Speaker 2: the moat filled in. But when they did it, because
Speaker 2: of how wet it was, it actually protected a lot
Speaker 2: of they are facts that were found. So mostly it
Speaker 2: was animal bone, so a lot of fallow deer. And
Speaker 2: then when they did the when they did DNA testing
Speaker 2: on the fallow deer bones, they found that the hours
Speaker 2: came from the Baltics. Because what happened was fallow deer
Speaker 2: were practically extinct in this country, the Saxon's etamore, believe
Speaker 2: it or not, the normals reintroduced them, but that brought
Speaker 2: them from different parts of the country. And when we
Speaker 2: like say ours mainly come from the Baltic Bulkans fainting,
Speaker 2: So there was a lot of animal bones. They did
Speaker 2: find a beautiful it was a beautiful like tough comb
Speaker 2: and that would have been from the Shude era and
Speaker 2: their rings and jewelry battlespurs things like that. No bodies, Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: I have heard though or recent they found out while
Speaker 2: doing some research that in the nineteen twenties there was
Speaker 2: an archaeology de got done and some of the artifacts
Speaker 2: were shown as part of a fair that they had
Speaker 2: in the castle grounds. And part of that fair would
Speaker 2: have been they showed a skull of a cavalier soldier
Speaker 2: and in that school was founding the castle and actual
Speaker 2: recorded in one of the British News Archive part of
Speaker 2: the papers, which was fantastic find. Unfortunately I can't find
Speaker 2: the archaeology report right, which is what I'm trying to
Speaker 2: do at the moment.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Again, being a historian, being rooted in the history of
Speaker 1: not only the castle but Dudley as well, is there
Speaker 1: a particular period in this castle's history that you find
Speaker 1: especially fascinating?
Speaker 2: I just think all fascinating. I mean you're coming from
Speaker 2: because we think the one of the two reasons the
Speaker 2: castle was actually built, he was there was possibly something
Speaker 2: here already, so a lot of tall hill like this,
Speaker 2: and he is in line with other hill thoughts, so
Speaker 2: there could have been a hill fort here and it
Speaker 2: was just so easy just to throw the castle up.
Speaker 2: But I just find it all really, I mean I
Speaker 2: said to you earlier, think of who's walked across that
Speaker 2: courtyard and list Emry the Second. You've got Emry the Second.
Speaker 2: You've got Edward the Third. You've got Isabella quit the
Speaker 2: she Wolf of Franz. You've got Roger Mortimer, her lover.
Speaker 2: You've got John Dudley, You've got Elizabeth the First. Possibly
Speaker 2: Robert Dudley quite quite possibly the Earl of Essex was
Speaker 2: here because he was the step son of Robert Dudley.
Speaker 2: I mean, you've got all these figures that that courtyard. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and that's not even thinking about John Dissummray, who was
Speaker 2: a baron of Dudley. He was actually a close close
Speaker 2: friend of Edward the Third, I mean Edward the Second, sorry,
Speaker 2: and he was I mean this was his, this was
Speaker 2: his castle. He completed the keep and everything. Just thinking
Speaker 2: of the people that have walked through that courtyard is
Speaker 2: just it blows my mind. And if these stones could
Speaker 2: actually talk. What they could tell you is unbelievable.
Speaker 1: Well, we're going to get into about yeah, yeah, we're
Speaker 1: going to get into about how these stones could talk
Speaker 1: about the things that these stones are possibly had possibly
Speaker 1: seen in the past. Another fascinating thing that you mentioned again,
Speaker 1: as I said, Amy and myself have been we were
Speaker 1: chatting away for quite a while. And again something else
Speaker 1: that you mentioned that was really interesting was as I
Speaker 1: was saying, as I was driving up here, I mentioned
Speaker 1: the fact that, to imagine them, none of the houses,
Speaker 1: none of these buildings, all.
Speaker 3: Of the trees that it would have would have.
Speaker 1: Been not here. You know, there would have been hundreds
Speaker 1: of years of these woodlands and forests that would have
Speaker 1: probably surrounded this. And I've mentioned to you about I
Speaker 1: would have loved to have known how far away I
Speaker 1: would have been driving up to the castle, how far
Speaker 1: away they could have seen it. And you mentioned that
Speaker 1: this wasn't even the highest hill anywhere.
Speaker 3: No, No, but that.
Speaker 1: Comes back to what you said about a fascinating reason.
Speaker 1: And I'm going to ask Amy to explains even though
Speaker 1: it wasn't the highest hill, why it was chosen because
Speaker 1: the highest hill was somewhere else.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the highest, the highest hill is probably Sedgely he could, okay,
Speaker 2: the two hills would have been next to each other. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and William the Conqueror kept that side, he kept as
Speaker 2: it was called. Okay, and he said, right there, you
Speaker 2: go build your castle on that hill. But the reason
Speaker 2: possibly was there was there's a water source. We've got
Speaker 2: the water source, so underneath here we have a limestone ridge.
Speaker 2: Basically the castle's a limestone ridge. So we've got a
Speaker 2: lot of underground springs, even at this height, and the
Speaker 2: lime will push the water up. So the well we've
Speaker 2: got to die is still full. It's still used. We
Speaker 2: still use it to fill the penguins and the sea
Speaker 2: lions enclosures. Up.
Speaker 3: I love it.
Speaker 2: So you know, it's one hundred and eight foot deep
Speaker 2: and about seventy foot white that that well is. There
Speaker 2: is a rumor that there's a second well on the keep.
Speaker 2: We've never found it, but that could have dated to
Speaker 2: the original modern Bailey castle. But definitely that was the
Speaker 2: one that possibly the main reason that the castle was
Speaker 2: built on this hill and not Beacon.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: You also mentioned about the well is capped under a
Speaker 1: blue plate or something like that, and when it was discovered.
Speaker 2: I mean, the grens were left to overgrow, but people
Speaker 2: used to let their sheep and the cowers and the
Speaker 2: horses graze up here. And the story goes that the
Speaker 2: well was rediscovered in the eighteen hundreds when a horse
Speaker 2: fell through Earl of Dudley and some mental they got
Speaker 2: the horse out. Luckily it survived, but they rediscovered the well. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean there's lots of lots of little stories like
Speaker 2: that about the castle. I mean, there is in the
Speaker 2: triple gate. Unfortunately today you can't see because of the
Speaker 2: scaffolding we've got, but there is a murder hole right
Speaker 2: in the key which is filled in. And it's a
Speaker 2: weird one because it's in the middle of the gate
Speaker 2: rather usually your murder holes were over your main your
Speaker 2: pul cullites, but this one's right in the middle, and
Speaker 2: they they it was filled in because a horse fell
Speaker 2: through it. Now, what is a horse doing on a roof?
Speaker 2: That's what I'd like to get. But having that's a
Speaker 2: local legend that the horse fell through.
Speaker 3: It, would you explain what a murder hole is.
Speaker 2: A murder hole is something you can drop nasty things
Speaker 2: on your see warfare Back then Okay. Our gate was
Speaker 2: a triple gated, so you had your drawbridge, then you
Speaker 2: had a pork cullis, and then you had a second
Speaker 2: port cullis at the back, both backed up by two
Speaker 2: big oak doors. But what you might find if you
Speaker 2: attack the castle is the drawbridge is down and the
Speaker 2: pork course list is open. And then when you make
Speaker 2: a play for the courtyard, they dropped the poor cullis,
Speaker 2: turn around to run out, they'll drop the second port cullis,
Speaker 2: So basically trapped, then you can be Things can be
Speaker 2: thrown down at you, things like stock, things like rocks
Speaker 2: and stones, like a shot, arrows down, sewage and dead
Speaker 2: animal parts or dead bodies. And that's to cause infection
Speaker 2: because if you've fought your back you walked up that
Speaker 2: hill this morning, Yeah, you fought your way up that hill,
Speaker 2: you're going to have the odd scratch, the odd grays,
Speaker 2: you get something like sewage, your rotten flesh in a.
Speaker 3: Cut, Yeah it's going to cause Yeah, it's.
Speaker 2: Going to cause infections and things like that. And then
Speaker 2: basically they'd open the gate and let you go back
Speaker 2: to your village. And that's the Baron of Dudley going
Speaker 2: come on, then come and try it.
Speaker 3: This is what's going to happen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, a warning.
Speaker 2: So a murder hole literally was used to drop things
Speaker 2: on people that, like I said, they're capturing the gate.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Fascinated.
Speaker 1: How was the local community's relationship with this castle changed
Speaker 1: over time from a stronghold to a ruin to a
Speaker 1: tourist attraction as well, because again we spoke briefly about
Speaker 1: it turning into a zoom and also the paranorm, the
Speaker 1: hotspots around it. How do you think that the community
Speaker 1: has reacted over time to this?
Speaker 2: I mean, as a stronghold, this would have been this
Speaker 2: would have the castle would have ruled the tow one
Speaker 2: hundred percent, would have ruled. Baron Dudley would have ruled
Speaker 2: the town. John Dee sun Ray, who's coughing with sat
Speaker 2: next to I mean, he ruled with an iron rod
Speaker 2: and he got a really bad reputation was reported by
Speaker 2: the locals to the king for ruling this area as
Speaker 2: a king. He was in charge and he meant no
Speaker 2: bones about it. He gets a really bad rep does
Speaker 2: John because of it. But he's a man of his time.
Speaker 2: He was in charge and he wanted the money to
Speaker 2: make the castle bigger and better and grander, coming down
Speaker 2: to a ruin. It was seen as a sort of
Speaker 2: romantic ruin, So lots of courting couples would have come
Speaker 2: up here doing courting couples of things. And then the
Speaker 2: Earl of Dudley needed a why to provide a lasting
Speaker 2: funding stream. And the Earl of Dudley at the time
Speaker 2: was also very into exotic animals. He was at London.
Speaker 2: He was on the board of trustees at London Zoo,
Speaker 2: I believe, and also on the board of trustees was
Speaker 2: a man called Frank Cooper who owned a small collection
Speaker 2: of exotics down in Oxford, and the two of them
Speaker 2: got together. Also who happened to be at London at
Speaker 2: the time was a guy called Bertold Lebecin who was
Speaker 2: in charge of the Techton Group, And this was a
Speaker 2: guy who was bringing in innovations with buildings and architecture,
Speaker 2: and he used the first pre stressed concrete buildings. He
Speaker 2: was doing a lot of enclosures with Dudley at London.
Speaker 2: So the three of them got together. I've got the grounds,
Speaker 2: i got the animals, I've got the knowledge, and they
Speaker 2: came up with putting, which was a perfectly natural thing
Speaker 2: to do, because the relationship between zoos and castles has
Speaker 2: been for generations. The first zoo in this country was
Speaker 2: at the Tower of London. It was the roman Agerie
Speaker 2: because foreign dignitaries would gift animals to others. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: they were kept at the Tower of London until the
Speaker 2: eighteen hundreds when the Duke of Wellington, who was constable
Speaker 2: that the terror got annoyed because people were getting bitten
Speaker 2: by things like baboons. They were left to scarpor Owen. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and he was like, right, we're going to get rid
Speaker 2: of the animals out of the tower, moved into Hyde Park,
Speaker 2: which had to become London's which was the first zoo
Speaker 2: in the country. Is fascinating, So there is a natural
Speaker 2: affinity between zoos and castles. A lot of people don't
Speaker 2: think this. A lot of people. I am like, well,
Speaker 2: for God's like putting a zoo, But it's a perfectly
Speaker 2: natural thing today and the Earl of Dudley wanted to
Speaker 2: provide that lasting funding stream for the upkeeper of the castle.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean the other thing is one with the zoos.
Speaker 1: I've visited many stately homes and again, a lot of
Speaker 1: these paintings in stately homes. You will have, you know,
Speaker 1: the Earl or the Baron or something surrounded by these
Speaker 1: exotic animals. And it was kind of a business card
Speaker 1: in a sense.
Speaker 2: Look where I've visited, Look where I've been.
Speaker 3: I mean.
Speaker 2: The Earl of Dudley was well known for his is
Speaker 2: the third Earl I should say, was a known I
Speaker 2: mean he was very close to the royals as well.
Speaker 2: I mean the Duke of camp was here, Yeah, the
Speaker 2: Duke and Duchess of Kent, I mean him or being
Speaker 2: hosted by the Earls of Dudley, not for their honeymoon. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know they were. There was a close connection and
Speaker 2: of course the affinity between royals and exotic animals. He'd
Speaker 2: know that, the third Earl, and it being no brainer.
Speaker 2: You've got this space, you want to create something that's
Speaker 2: going to provided that lasting funding stream. The Zoo's ninety
Speaker 2: years old in two years time. Dudley Series ninety years
Speaker 2: old in two years time. It's provided that lasting Yeah.
Speaker 1: You mentioned the architecture of a lot of the the
Speaker 1: the enclosures for the animals, and it is still quite futuristic.
Speaker 2: It's still yeah, I mean is it was, It's very
Speaker 2: art Deco. Yes, yes, the tectons. I'm not a big fan.
Speaker 2: I'll be honest art deco at all, but I can
Speaker 2: appreciate what they are. And if you put this, we've
Speaker 2: got the largest connection of a nail grade one star listed.
Speaker 2: I mean you can't look at them run really the
Speaker 2: only thing higher is this is the castle. But they
Speaker 2: are of their time, you know they are. And now
Speaker 2: husbandry guidelines have changed for the animals. Certain things we
Speaker 2: need to do enclosures. Those enclosures from thirty seven are
Speaker 2: not going to be suitable that animal. So today our
Speaker 2: keepers are really really good at looking at and enclosure
Speaker 2: and right, that's the polar bear pit we call put
Speaker 2: a polar bear in there. What can we put in
Speaker 2: the Arctic foxes? Let's do Arctic foxes. And that's what
Speaker 2: we've done. And that's what the keepers are very and
Speaker 2: the zoo in general are very good at doing. Is
Speaker 2: looking at something and taking it and going, well, can't
Speaker 2: do that now, let's you know, and we get do
Speaker 2: get Dudley's who does get seleighted for its condition if
Speaker 2: you like. But people don't realize that those twelve listed
Speaker 2: building are some of the most important buildings in the country.
Speaker 2: And I've got that listing on it if you go,
Speaker 2: if you know Dudley's, we've got something called the Queen Mary. Yeah,
Speaker 2: the ballroom, the restaurant. We've also got the Discovery Center,
Speaker 2: and we've got the Roundhouse, which was the old bird House.
Speaker 2: If you put the Queen Mary on top of the
Speaker 2: the Discovery Center and then on top of that put
Speaker 2: the Roundhouse, it's a perfect replica of the Queen mayryship
Speaker 2: from the ninety thirties.
Speaker 3: Right, And yet I did not know that.
Speaker 2: That's why. Yeah, Yeah, that's why the Queen Mayry is
Speaker 2: called the Queen may Not a lot of people realize
Speaker 2: that that's why the Queen Mayry is called the Queen Mayry.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It just goes to prove though, in a sense that well,
Speaker 1: Dudley Castle and the Zoo, they've had to adapt a
Speaker 1: hell of a lot over the last one hundred years.
Speaker 2: Certainly, Yeah, I mean ninety years. What you could do
Speaker 2: in nineteen thirty seven when the zoo opened, you can't
Speaker 2: do today. You know, some of the animals that were
Speaker 2: housed here, you wouldn't even dream of housing them here now,
Speaker 2: because to be fair, it's forty acres. The Dudley Zoo
Speaker 2: is forty acres compared to some zoos. It's a small
Speaker 2: site and we just have to adapt and change and
Speaker 2: do things a different way. And like I say, it's peoples,
Speaker 2: whether you like them or not. The buildings, we are
Speaker 2: impeded by them. So yeah, because of what they are. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean it's a good thing to have them. I
Speaker 2: mean it is a good thing to have them. I'm
Speaker 2: not saying that, but were they are impeded. The keepers
Speaker 2: have impeded on what we can actually yeah, do and build.
Speaker 2: I mean our keepers are fantastic looking at things and
Speaker 2: that they think out the box.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a testament. It's a testament to the Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a testament to them. It's a testament to head
Speaker 1: the place as you run as well, because as you're
Speaker 1: constantly having to having to adapt. Shall we talk paranormal yes, Okay,
Speaker 1: so talking about this location being a paranormal hotspot. Now,
Speaker 1: Dudley Castles and of reputation has been one of the
Speaker 1: most haunted places in Britain. When did reports of activity
Speaker 1: first begin to surface on this side?
Speaker 2: So the very first report was from the eighteen seventies,
Speaker 2: and that was recorded by a local ghost hunter, writer,
Speaker 2: ghost writer and avid ghost hunter. His name is Harry Bentham,
Speaker 2: and he recorded a conversation he had with the guide
Speaker 2: now in going back before the zoo was here, so
Speaker 2: there would have been a castle keeper and it was
Speaker 2: probably him. He was talking to him, Yeah, and he
Speaker 2: recorded that he was the actual statement goers. I was
Speaker 2: sitting at the bottom of the keep talking to two
Speaker 2: visitors when we saw two figures come down to keep,
Speaker 2: go to the left hand side, dressed in in sixteenth
Speaker 2: or seventeenth century clothing. A man had a tall hat
Speaker 2: and a cooked stick, went round to the side. I
Speaker 2: went up, the guide went up and they disappeared and
Speaker 2: con't find anyone. That was the first recorded ghost sighting.
Speaker 2: That's image of the two people were seen again in
Speaker 2: the nineteen thirties.
Speaker 3: Right, okay, a repeat side, It was.
Speaker 2: A repeated sighting.
Speaker 1: What types of hauntings are most frequently reported here? And
Speaker 1: are we talking full apparitions, which we've just spoke about
Speaker 1: full apparition, so we are talking we're talking sounds, cold spots,
Speaker 1: something more.
Speaker 2: All of them we've had. I think one of my
Speaker 2: favorite favorite stories apart from the feet in the coffee was. Actually,
Speaker 2: it was recorded in my nineteen seventy eight four electricians
Speaker 2: working overnight in the courtyard refused to come back on
Speaker 2: site because they saw a procession of monks walking through
Speaker 2: the courtyard.
Speaker 3: In nineteen seventy eight.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in nineteen seventy eight. That's one of my favorite
Speaker 2: recordings of a ghost sighting.
Speaker 3: That is fascinated. They were working overnight.
Speaker 2: They were working overnight, they were laying some cables apparently,
Speaker 2: and I saw a procession amongst and I refused to
Speaker 2: come back on site. Now, obviously Dudley's very close to
Speaker 2: Dudley Priory. Dudley Castle's very close. It's about one hundred
Speaker 2: and fifty yards down the road, and the monks would
Speaker 2: have been here regularly because they took the services in
Speaker 2: the chapel aboves. And there has been lots of reported sightings.
Speaker 2: Nineteen fifty one somebody reported seeing a figure in the
Speaker 2: chapel wind upstairs, right, they sort of figure if you
Speaker 2: go outside, there are no you can't access that part
Speaker 2: of the castle because it's of the fire. They damaged
Speaker 2: the fire done, but they saw that figuring. That was
Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty one. There's been repeated sighting is as
Speaker 2: recently as about two thousand and sixteen, maybe when a
Speaker 2: ghost group come on. Two people taking photos on the
Speaker 2: steps that leaved up to the castle were taking photos
Speaker 2: at the top. When they saw the photos at the top,
Speaker 2: there was a hooded figuring one call wow, and I
Speaker 2: think that and he does look like he's robe and
Speaker 2: so it does look like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, Who or what are the most well known spirits?
Speaker 1: Said to linger here, and can you tell us the
Speaker 1: story of the.
Speaker 2: She's the most famous season. She Dorothee Bellomont. Who we
Speaker 2: believe it's Dorothee Bellamont, Dorothy Bellamont. What I love about
Speaker 2: her is we've got records of that lady being here
Speaker 2: at the castle. There is surviving letters between Bereton and Levison,
Speaker 2: who are Levison at the castle. Bereton was sieging it
Speaker 2: talking about her death basically, which is fantastic. Basically she
Speaker 2: had a daughter, a baby daughter, and the story goes
Speaker 2: the daughter that she was. During the English Civil War,
Speaker 2: she was married to the second in command of the
Speaker 2: forces here, a guy called John Belmont Are Aroundceptmber sixth
Speaker 2: September sixteen fourteen four she gave birth to a daughter
Speaker 2: daughter was Clarissa and Francis, but died and the story
Speaker 2: goes she died a few hours a few days after birth. Yeah,
Speaker 2: baby's body was removed from the castle and buried at
Speaker 2: one of the local churches, which is an Edmunds, which
Speaker 2: is over the road. A few weeks after that event
Speaker 2: took took place. The soldiers here at the castle actually
Speaker 2: got winned that the parliamentarians were going to start a siege.
Speaker 2: That were going to attack the castle and start a siege.
Speaker 2: So there was one act of defiance. They went out
Speaker 2: and anywhere where you could garrison soldiers that knocked it down.
Speaker 2: That church was one of the places they knocked down.
Speaker 2: The church with that's there today is from the seventeen hundreds,
Speaker 2: so they're not the church down, of course, when they're
Speaker 2: not the church there. They destroyed the graves, including the babies,
Speaker 2: and he said, donn they had quite the breakdown. She
Speaker 2: used to under the castle. She actually thought the kid
Speaker 2: was still alive, but it was being kept away from her.
Speaker 2: And she's search and search time and time again looking
Speaker 2: for a daughter. Yeah, obviously daughter. She got sick. Hygiene
Speaker 2: wasn't the best. She got sick herself by the following April,
Speaker 2: it was more or less known she was going to
Speaker 2: pass away. She made a dying wish and that with
Speaker 2: dying wish was to be buried with her daughter. She'd
Speaker 2: accepted the death, but she wanted to be buried with
Speaker 2: the daughter. She also had the husband attender funeral Baby
Speaker 2: Doyers Dorothy doy Is on the twenty sixth of April,
Speaker 2: and a message is sent in to team. Messages been
Speaker 2: replied to carried by what they call a drummer.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Now, a lot of people think of drummer boys. Okay,
Speaker 2: it's a well known story here the drummer boy. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: these wouldn't big boys. They would be men that'd be
Speaker 2: your Rage'd be given a message and banging the drum
Speaker 2: should have called for a seasfire between the two sides. Wow, Now,
Speaker 2: when I've done my history research, it was on one
Speaker 2: soldier that was shot.
Speaker 1: It was two.
Speaker 2: As they made their way up the track where those
Speaker 2: steps are to the arch, try a bullet hit them.
Speaker 2: We don't know which from which side. I don't know
Speaker 2: if you come from our side, come from their side.
Speaker 2: But banging that drum should have called for a choose
Speaker 2: between the two sides.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So Breton, being the all powerful generally was at the
Speaker 2: time written other letter and he said, right, we were
Speaker 2: going to allow you to add you have your funeral.
Speaker 2: We're not going to allow that. Now you shot two
Speaker 2: of our soldiers under a drum of truths. This is
Speaker 2: what we're going to do. We've dug you an owl
Speaker 2: in the churchyard at the top of the tower, and
Speaker 2: you've got twenty minutes to get up there, get her buried,
Speaker 2: and get back into the cast.
Speaker 3: Wow okay, any of.
Speaker 2: Your soldiers out after twenty minutes, that's see done. Oh
Speaker 2: by the way, husband's second in command of the castle.
Speaker 2: If he comes out, we'll shoot him on side. So
Speaker 2: he wasn't allowed to the castle, so he couldn't get
Speaker 2: to the funeral. Sorry. Six soldiers went out, six soldiers
Speaker 2: got her up there, six soldiers got buried, and six
Speaker 2: soldiers got back in this castle within twenty minutes. Wow, okay,
Speaker 2: now you know yourself, your local lad from all from
Speaker 2: here to the top of the tower ten minutes at
Speaker 2: good pace. Imagine doing that, six of you running a
Speaker 2: body up the middle of the Oye Street. And very
Speaker 2: occasionally they'll have a festival in Dudley and they will
Speaker 2: run a coffin up the middle of the Oyle Street.
Speaker 2: And that's why it's three twice free. Yeah wow, Okay,
Speaker 2: So it said that because she never got two dimeshes,
Speaker 2: she was never buried with the daughter. She can't ba
Speaker 2: because grave was lost and destroyed and her husband didn't
Speaker 2: attender funeral. That she is back here and she's searching
Speaker 2: around for a daughter, and she's seen in every part
Speaker 2: of the castle. The most famous sighting over there I
Speaker 2: was in twenty fourteen when a lady was taking pictures
Speaker 2: from the top of the keep. Okay, think you've probably
Speaker 2: seen that. He's in the doorway the Sharington Range. There's
Speaker 2: a figure that's a very famous photo. I tell yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's her most famous, a recent, most famous sighting. But
Speaker 2: she's seen all over. She's seen in every part of
Speaker 2: the castle. But as I said to you, we will
Speaker 2: talk about the stone tape. I think she's part of
Speaker 2: the stone tape.
Speaker 1: That's where we're going to leave things for part one
Speaker 1: of my interview with Amy, the paranormal host and historian
Speaker 1: at Dudley Castle. In part two, we move away from
Speaker 1: the wider history and much darker territory, diving deeper into
Speaker 1: the ghosts, legends, and strange happenings that have been reported
Speaker 1: here over the years, from recurring apparitions to experiences that
Speaker 1: still defy explanation. Things are about to get a lot
Speaker 1: more unsettling, so make sure you tune in and join
Speaker 1: me for Part two, where the stories become harder to
Speaker 1: explain and the past refuses to stay silent.
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