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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.

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Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,

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and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my

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experience as the brother of a murder victim to help

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other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book

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on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co

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administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

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Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher,

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a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the

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social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway

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Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas.

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Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm

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Bill Thomas. We're back for part two of our recap

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of American Detective with Joe Kenda talking about the Colonial

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Parkway murders. Bill and I had the pleasure of looking

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at this documentary you the day it came out, me

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a couple of days afterward. We wanted to make sure

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that we shared our thoughts and do a quick recap

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before getting to listener questions.

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Speaker 4: So, Bill, you liked it.

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Speaker 5: I do.

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Speaker 2: I feel like it's the best today coverage, long form

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coverage that we've had at the Colonial Parkway murders. I

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thought Joe Kenda and Danny Plott did a fantastic job.

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It was great seeing Steve Spingola, who's another friend of

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ours who's done some outstanding work in the Colonial Parkway murders.

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I thought it was extremely well done. I didn't agree

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with every conclusion that they came to, and we'll talk

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more about that as this conversation unfolds.

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Speaker 5: But that's okay.

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Speaker 2: I don't have to agree with everything, and there may

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be things when this case is fully solved, which is

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an important thing to talk about. I may be right

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about some things, and I may be wrong about plenty

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of things. Of course, there's always been the question back

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and forth, are these cases all related or are they

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independent events? I feel like consensus is building that moves

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us more towards connections rather than independent events.

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Speaker 5: But time will tell. I was really pleased.

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Speaker 2: I appreciated the outstanding work, and I thought it was

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the story was told with a kind of a light touch.

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I think I used the word elegant. I thought it

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was beautifully shot. Loved all the aerial footage, the drone

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footage of the Colonial Parkway, and the areas where the

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crimes took place, and I thought they presented the story

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well and pretty fairly.

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Speaker 4: I agree with all of that.

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Speaker 3: I too, did not agree with all of the conclusions

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that they came to, but again that's fine because we're

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not investigators and we don't have all of the information

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that they have. I like any program that is shot

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well and beautifully in this one was I like any

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program where I am able to learn information that I

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did not necessarily have before. And I did learn some

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new things from this, which is always refreshing because I

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feel like I have lived and breathed this case with

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you for so long. I'm like, my god, how can

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there possibly be anything I don't know? Actually, there's a

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lot that I don't know, and that's refreshing. And there

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were also new storytelling elements that were brought into.

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Speaker 4: This that I had.

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Speaker 3: Not seen or were merely only alluded to in The

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Lover's Lane murders, and I want to get to those

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in a second, but first I want to give kudos

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to Joe Kenda for describing the Colonial Parkway as when

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you get on the Colonial Parkway you're in a Stephen

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King novel for twenty three miles. I wrote that down

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because I loved it.

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Speaker 2: Joe did an outstanding job, and I felt like he

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had taken a real personal interest in this case. Now,

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I've still never met Lieutenant Kenda, now retired, but I'd

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like to and I look forward to that. As a

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matter of fact, I'm going to put that on my

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bucket list. He's someone that I would love to sit

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down and have dinner with. Well, you and I could

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take Joe Kenda and Danny Plott to dinner.

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Speaker 5: That would be an interesting evening.

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Speaker 4: I would love that. That would be fantastic.

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Speaker 3: You had mentioned Steve Spingle at the top of the pod,

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and I want to make sure that for anybody who's

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not familiar with Steve's work, we mentioned some of the

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work that he's done on this case. Now, most people

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are familiar with Steve from Cold Justice with Kelly Siegler,

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which is absolutely the thing that you should know him from.

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But what a lot of people may not be aware

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of is that he did some work on the Colonial

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Parkway murders case and he created a short but very

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informative work that you can only find unkindle called Predators

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on the Parkway?

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Speaker 4: Bill?

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Speaker 3: Can you tell us a little bit about predators on

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the Parkway?

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Speaker 2: Some years back, Steve Spongola and his investigative partner came

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down to Virginia. Steve lives in Milwaukee. He's a pretty

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renowned homicide detective himself. He had come down and we

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covered their expenses. They were really minimal. I remember seeing

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the receipts, and they really traveled very inexpensively. They weren't

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wasting the Colonial Parkram murders families money.

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Speaker 5: That was for sure.

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Speaker 2: Steve, as part of his reporting back to us on

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what they found, he ended up writing this. It's not

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book length, it's more like an in depth report. I

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encourage people if they have kindle or other formats that

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allow them to buy it. It's available on Amazon. It's

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not very expensive. It's very well written, and I don't

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necessarily agree with all of Steve's conclusions, but he's got

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some really really interesting things to say about the case.

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And that's another example where you bring in a veteran

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homicide detective and have them take a look at the

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Colonial Parkram murders, they come back with a lot of

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really interesting observations, much like Joe Kendem.

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Speaker 5: So there was a.

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Speaker 2: Hard copy available of Predator's on the Parkway for a

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number of years, but I think it's out of print

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now and so that's where you can only get it

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on kindle, typically through Amazon. But if you haven't read it,

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I do encourage you to read it. Very very interesting.

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And I didn't get a chance to see Steve when

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he was in Virginia. I thought his observations on camera

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were really really interesting.

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Speaker 5: As always, I.

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Speaker 3: Really was very interested in Predators on the Parkway because

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for a long time, before A Special Kind of Evil

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came out, that was really the only long form piece

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that had been written on the Parkway, other than obviously

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all that remains from Patricia Cornwell, which is not in

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any way a work of fact.

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Speaker 4: It is a work of fiction.

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Speaker 3: So for a while, their Predators on the Parkway was

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all that we had. And so I have read it.

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It is very good, very interesting. I am looking right

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now to see if you can find it on Amazon,

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and unfortunately nothing's coming up. I'm looking right now and

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I can't find it. Somebody had asked if they had

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done an audio book of it, and I don't think.

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Speaker 4: There is one.

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Speaker 5: No, I don't think so either.

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Speaker 3: It is still very much worth your while. For some

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reason or another, I can't find it. I do see

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a mug that says got Spangola, so sure, I'm sure

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Steve loves having that.

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Speaker 4: That's fantastic.

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Speaker 5: I need one of those.

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Speaker 2: I'll reach out to Steve too. I'd love to talk

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with him as always, so I'll report back on that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's fantastic.

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Speaker 3: So, yeah, we got to give a lot of kudos

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to Steve Spinola for being willing to come out and

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be a part of that series.

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Speaker 4: I think it's fantastic.

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Speaker 3: Talked last episode about the family members who are willing

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to participate in these which is very emotionally difficult, but

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again I want to offer kudos to them. Kudos to

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Andy Fox. Andy has been reporting on this case since

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the very very first case in nineteen eighty six. Kathy

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and Becky we were joking off air that you would

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mention to Andy that you can really sort of measure

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the passage of time by his hairstyle.

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Speaker 2: Well, when he starts out thirty seven, thirty eight years ago,

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he's got a full head of dark hair, and that now,

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all these years later, he still looks great, but he's

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got a full head of white hair.

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Speaker 5: And now we've all gotten older.

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Speaker 2: But when you see Andy as like a very young

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kind of cub reporter, you know, standing there doing his reporting,

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which is.

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Speaker 5: Very very good.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but he looks like such a kid, and now

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he looks like a grown man with a full head

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of white hair.

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Speaker 4: He's a seasoned veteran exactly.

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Speaker 3: And of course we were always happy to see Blaine

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Pardo and talk about the wonderful work that he's done

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so far on the case. I think Jupiter Entertainment couldn't

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have done any better than get the people that they

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had on camera, So kudos to them for reaching out

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to as many case experts as possible. The two things

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that I was really interested in before we get to

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our listener questions that came up and the presentation. I'm

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not going to call them rabbit holes necessarily, but they

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are things that were not brought up in the Lover's

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Lame murders and haven't been typically brought up even in

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our own coverage.

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Speaker 4: And that was the mention.

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Speaker 3: Of Becky's ex boyfriend who were not going to name

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the fact that there was some looking very closely at

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him for the murder of Kathy and Becky. I was

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very surprised that they actually went down that road, because

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that isn't something that we've spent a lot of time

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on because we do not want to name him. He's

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still haunted about in the world. Nobody's totally cleared until

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a homicide is cleared, but he has been cleared as

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much as he can be, and so we don't want

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to name him. But I was interested that they actually

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mentioned that. Did you know that they were going to

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go down that particular investigative path there, Bill.

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Speaker 5: I didn't.

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Speaker 2: Now, first of all, for everyone's benefit, the name they

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use there is an alias that's not his real name.

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Now I do know his real name. We actually know

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a fair amount about him. Yeah, because I've looked into

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any number of people who are potentially involved in the

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Colonial Parkway murders, he was a likely suspect. And of

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course anyone that's been following true crime knows that they

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will look at the girlfriend, the boyfriend, the husband, the wife.

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Those are people that could be involved in homicide like

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Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski. Now keep in mind, at

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the time he was looked at, the other murders haven't

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taken place yet. When you're looking to see who might

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have killed a Naval Academy grad Kathy Thomas and a

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William and Mary senior Rebecca Dowski, obviously men that they

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had dated are possible suspects, and this guy, in particular,

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with his Muslim background and being thrown over by Becky

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Dowski for Kathy Thomas, which would have been Kathy's second

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relationship with a woman. She had also dated the woman

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that she met aboard the Ussy Spear, Becky in her

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first lesbian relationship that we're aware of with my sister

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Kathy Thomas. Our understanding was that Becky's former boyfriend, who

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had attended William and Mary with her, was very put

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out by the fact that he'd been thrown over, and

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then he found out he'd been thrown over for a woman.

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He has motive and one area where I'll push back

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politely on something that Joe Kenda said, which is that

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this former boyfriend had an alibi which put him in Washington,

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d C. The weekend that Kathy and Becky were killed.

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As you and I have discussed on mind Over Murder before.

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I believe you could make it from Williamsburg to Washington,

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d C or return at night with light traffic in

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maybe three three and a half hours. Now, remember, the

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timeline for Kathy and Becky involves them going missing on

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a Thursday night. Their bodies are not discovered until so,

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so the timeline's a little fuzzy. Kathy and Becky are

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essentially missing for almost three days, so there is more

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than enough time for Becky's former boyfriend to drive back

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from Washington, d C, kill them, and then either stay

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in Williamsburg or return to Washington, d C. Again, this

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is a pre internet, pre cell phone environment, so he

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supposedly had signed on to some network or something which

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proved I'm putting quotes around that that he was in Washington,

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d C that weekend. I think it's still possible. I'm

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not pushing the point, but it's possible that he could

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have returned to Williamsburg and, perhaps working with accomplices, killed

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Kathy and Becky and then either returned to Washington, d C, or,

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having established his alibi, remained in Williamsburg. I don't think

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the fact that he was in Washington, d c that

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weekend and gives him any kind of ironclad alibi.

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Speaker 3: I can definitely see that the other rabbit hole I

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would call it, because there are so many in this

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case that I was actually quite surprised to see the

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filmmakers get into. And by surprised, I guess I mean

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why this rabbit hole instead of other more likely rabbit holes.

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Was the inclusion of Sammy Reider and his rather convoluted

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interjection into the investigation into David.

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Speaker 4: Nobbling and Robin Edwards murder.

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Speaker 3: For anybody who is kind of blanking on Sammy Reider's name,

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can you give everybody the five cent version of Sammy Reader?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Sammy Reader. And I've spoken to the retired sheriff

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about this. This is the sheriff of Isle of Wight County.

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Sammy Reider told law enforcement that he was there the

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night that Robin Edwards and David Nobling were killed. After

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a kind of a shifting story about what he was

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doing there or keeping in mind this is a place

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that's known as a lover's Lane location and also a

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place where low level drug deals would take place. Reader

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claimed he was there after a date which I apparently

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might not have gone that well, because he had time

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to be out wandering around at the Ragged Island Wildlife Refuge.

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He claimed that David Nobling and Robin Edwards were outside

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the truck when he arrived. It seems a little unlikely

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because it was supposed to be a drizzly kind of

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cold evening, so that seems unlikely. He claims that he

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got into the truck and went through David's wallet and

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stole some small amount of money that was in his wallet.

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Speaker 5: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Reader seems to have made a real effort to put

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himself there. I think because he realized that since he

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was there and he had opened the cab of the

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truck and climbed on board, that he likely would have

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left fingerprints, and so I think he was sort of

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looking for a cover story as to exactly what was

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he doing in David Noblings for Ranger pickup truck. Reader,

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by the way, ends up dying under kind of mysterious

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circumstances a couple of years later, in what appears to

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be an autoerotic asphyxiation incident. I was about to call

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it an accident, but I'm not sure. He supposedly he

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hung himself and was found dead in his garage. Apparently

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there were you know, there was pornography there. And the

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idea with autoerotic asphyxiation is that people, typically men, will

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masturbate and will actually hang themselves, at least partially. The

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idea is to cut off the flow of oxygen and

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it's supposed to intensify the pleasure felt by.

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Speaker 5: An an individual.

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Speaker 2: Some people may remember Michael Hutchins, the lead singer of

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In Excess. They had said that that had possibly been

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how he had ended up killing himself. So the question is,

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did reader kill himself? Did someone kill him in stage

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it to look like autoerotic asphyxiation.

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Speaker 5: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't think I've gone into such an in depth

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description of how this all works. And you look kind

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of slightly pink faced.

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Speaker 3: I did not expect that to be a thing that

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we got into today. Yeah, I mean, nothing that you

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said is wrong. I just don't think I ever expected

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to hear that explanation. I mean, out of my podcast

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partner's health. And also, but thank you for the music

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trivia as well. I actually did not know that about

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Michael Watchins.

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Speaker 2: Remember we were talking last episode about the radio and

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the possibility that a radio from the Gloucester County Sheriff's

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Department was discarded after possibly having a connection to this case.

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It's like the Samuel Reader incident that ended his life.

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I realize there's all kinds of stuff that I am

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aware of in this case that it just seems to

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go on for days.

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Speaker 3: It is one of those things where I kind of

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have to be careful sometimes when I'm talking to people

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who are asking about the case. What am I not

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supposed to know that I'm not supposed to tell?

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Speaker 4: Man? What is it okay to tell people?

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Speaker 3: I feel like I may need to start keeping a

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list of these things. The Sami Reader story is interesting.

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I can see where the Jupiter Entertainment folks felt like

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it might have been necessary to mention it because it

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was somebody inserting themselves into the investigation. I do think, however,

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given our copious knowledge of the case, if you want

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to talk about self insertion into the investigation, the better

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00:18:13,559 --> 00:18:18,079
person to illustrate that point would have been going into

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the long and convoluted story of Ron Little and his

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security company in Liberty Security. But saying that, like as

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I'm saying it to you, I realized that that would

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have taken up a whole entire episode, like almost on

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its own. So I feel like one of the things

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that you have to do with something like this is

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you kind of have to pick and choose what are

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you going to do for storytelling? And I feel like

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the Ron Little episode would have been so pronounced it

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would have taken up a ton of airspace.

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Speaker 4: Do you kind of agree with that assessment or not?

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Speaker 5: I do.

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Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, you know, we can have

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another discussion about Ron Little at some point. We've discussed

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him before in mind of a murder, But you're absolutely right.

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You can't even begin to tell the Wrong Little story

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without having a pretty decent chunk of time. He's also

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now deceased. He died a couple of years ago. That

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story in and of itself has lots of fascinating twists

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and turns. And I still think it's possible that Ron

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Little may be involved in the Colonial Parkway murders, And

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certainly I think there's a strong possibility that Ron Little

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is involved in the murder of Brian Patten, jur and

353
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Lori and Powell, both of whom worked for Liberty Security,

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the security company he owned, or co owned during that timeframe.

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Speaker 3: I think that whoever is brave enough to take on

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this case next is going to have sort of a

357
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difficult time trying to figure out in a case with

358
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this many twists and turns in rabbit holes, how do

359
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you come up with a coherent narrative. I do like

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the fact that what Jupiter Entertainment gave to us with

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American Detective is much more coherent than I think I

362
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was hoping to be able to get. Being inside the

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messy middle of this case, you and I know how

364
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,400
many people have been looked at, how many people were discarded.

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We know how many people have little peripheral connections to this.

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Speaker 4: They didn't even get into fred Atwell. There are definitely.

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Speaker 3: Things that you have to pick and choose as you

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were creating a narrative. I think that whoever takes Thun

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the whole entire Colonial Parkway story, they're going to have

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to do fred At Well, They're going to have to

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do run Little and everything related to it.

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Speaker 4: It's a handful.

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Speaker 3: I think that the way that they presented it, with

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Wilmer being the main suspect because he has been connected

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to three cases, is probably the best way that they

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could have gone, especially given the time constraints that they had,

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they only had two hours. We did have a couple

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of people online say they felt like this should have

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been longer, and I think we agree with that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, the problem is it takes that long to

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tell a story this complicated.

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Speaker 3: Especially one this complicated that lasts as long as it has.

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I really do think that what we have in front

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of us right now is a really excellent breakdown of

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the case so far. Anything else that you want to

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get to before we go back to listener questions.

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Speaker 5: You're listening to mind Over Murder.

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Speaker 2: We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors.

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Speaker 5: We're back here at mindover Murder.

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Speaker 3: So we're back with listener questions. These were provided by

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the folks who are on our social media pages for

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mind Over Murder and our social media page for the

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Colonial Parkway murders. I'm going to start with the first

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question from Kelly H. She asks, I'm curious about Bill's

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experience with the law enforcement individuals who are introduced on

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this show. Are these some of the folks who were

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committed to the families and resolving the murders?

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Speaker 2: I would say yes, I mean I know Danny Plott

399
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:57,920
pretty well. I've met him and we've talked numerous times.

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I think the world of him. They are some of

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the people that we've been very impressed with. I saw

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00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:09,599
in passing a number of the FBI agents who have

403
00:22:09,799 --> 00:22:13,519
worked this case. Now, once again, the FBI makes a decision,

404
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:17,599
which I question, to not participate in a show like this.

405
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I mean, Joe Kenda is law enforcement through and through,

406
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and he's not here to make the FBI or the

407
00:22:22,799 --> 00:22:26,039
Virginia State Police or any of the agencies involved look bad.

408
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The FBI, as is typical, and I don't think this

409
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is a smart move on their part. They usually will

410
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not participate in these shows. Now, I did see a

411
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couple of clips. I saw one clip with the late

412
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IRV Wells, who was the Special Agent in charge of

413
00:22:41,079 --> 00:22:45,440
the Colonial Parkway murders investigation in the early stages. He's

414
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someone that I've met with and interviewed, and he's a

415
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wonderful guy. He passed away a couple of years ago.

416
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I wish the FBI and the Virginia State Police would

417
00:22:54,599 --> 00:22:58,680
be more active in participating in these discussions, but they

418
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don't seem to see the upside.

419
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Speaker 3: I think it's important for people who were not as

420
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,559
familiar with the case day in and day out as

421
00:23:05,599 --> 00:23:07,960
we are, to remember that there are a number of

422
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,039
investigative agencies here. We have the FBI, of course, that

423
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,480
is in charge of the Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski

424
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,000
murder as well as the Keith Call and Cassandra Haley

425
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,960
disappearance and murder. Then we have two offices of the

426
00:23:22,039 --> 00:23:25,119
Virginia State Police, one that is in charge of Anna

427
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,720
Maria Phelps and Daniel Lauer, the other that is in

428
00:23:27,799 --> 00:23:30,599
charge of Robin Edwards and David Nobling. And also a

429
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,079
police department in charge of the Terry Howell investigation, which

430
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,440
we later learned was looped in with Wilmer.

431
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Speaker 4: And then we have the Colonial Parkway.

432
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Speaker 3: Murders Task Force, which I think some people might not

433
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,599
be aware even exists. Bill, Can you talk a little

434
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,920
bit about the Colonial Parkway Murders Task Force and Danny Plott,

435
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,759
because I don't think people are maybe familiar with his name.

436
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,759
Speaker 2: I don't think the task force exists at this point.

437
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,519
During the course of the Colonial Parkway Murders, task Force

438
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,640
was put to together primarily of Virginia State Police and

439
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:07,359
FBI agents who work together cooperatively to try to share

440
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:12,319
information and improve communication between the agencies, because you have

441
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,240
this bifurcated split case, as you were describing, and that

442
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,240
clearly was a problem, and this was an attempt to

443
00:24:19,319 --> 00:24:23,519
address that. I don't think the task force exists at

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this point. I think it was a step forward at

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that time to try to improve communication and information sharing.

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Speaker 3: Right And for anybody who doesn't know Danny, because I

447
00:24:33,759 --> 00:24:36,319
don't think we've spent a lot of time mentioning him

448
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,319
on the podcast, probably he's glad of that, considering the

449
00:24:39,319 --> 00:24:41,480
way that we slag the FBI on the regular can

450
00:24:41,519 --> 00:24:43,160
you just mention, like who Danny Plott is.

451
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Speaker 2: Danny Plott is a retired Virginia State Police investigator. He

452
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was involved in the investigation of all the Colonial Parkway murders.

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Most specifically was on the team that investigated the Robin

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Edwards David Nobling murder and the murder of Anna Maria

455
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Phelps and Daniel were those of the two Virginia State

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Police investigations.

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Speaker 3: You know, one of the things that Danny shared on

458
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the documentary that I had no idea about was the

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fact that for a while there were male and female

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agents put in cars on the parkway to see if

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they would be approached by somebody doing the sort of

462
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things that Wilmer was doing, walking up to people approaching them,

463
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you know, maybe posing as a cop. Did you know

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00:25:27,519 --> 00:25:30,359
that there had been male female teams on the parkway

465
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and that Danny had been a member of those.

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Speaker 2: I didn't remember that Danny specifically had been one of

467
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,799
the couples that was out there parking, but yeah, that

468
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,200
was something I was aware of. It's funny how things

469
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,559
will come back to you as the story unfolds on

470
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American Detective and I'll think to myself.

471
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Speaker 5: Oh, yeah, they did do that.

472
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Speaker 2: They did bust some people for peeping Tom kind of activities,

473
00:25:55,319 --> 00:25:58,880
and they did question a lot of people about what

474
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,359
they had seen in her particularly couples. And one of

475
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,359
the things that needs to be made clear the FBI

476
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,359
and the Virginia State Police were aware of the fact

477
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that they had police impersonators on the parkway. They knew

478
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they had people, they weren't sure if it was one

479
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,400
person or multiple people who were harassing couples and pulling

480
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,960
couples over on the parkway. This happened, I would say

481
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,759
without exaggeration. Dozens of times they thought there might be

482
00:26:26,799 --> 00:26:32,119
a connection between those police impersonators and the Colonial Parkway

483
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,279
murders as they unfolded. I think they may be right,

484
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:40,000
because certainly Wilmer moved on to the radar the FBI

485
00:26:40,519 --> 00:26:45,119
within days of the disappearance of Keith Colin Cassandra Haley,

486
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,319
and of course that very distinctive truck that Wilmer was

487
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:53,319
driving resulted in them finding him, questioning him about the

488
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:57,079
disappearance of Keith Colin Cassandra Haley, and then ultimately being

489
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,000
polygraphed as they covered on American.

490
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 3: Detat before we get two questions about wilmer host mortem

491
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,440
and the investigation into Wilmer. And it's not like the

492
00:27:07,519 --> 00:27:09,960
FBI is cluing us in on the regular as to

493
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,039
what's happening. I do want to make sure that we

494
00:27:13,799 --> 00:27:19,640
acknowledge the fact that the case has not been solved yet.

495
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,000
There were a number of people who commented on our

496
00:27:23,039 --> 00:27:27,519
social media that they felt that the implication by the

497
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,359
end of the episode was that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior

498
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,960
had been proven to be the person responsible for all

499
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,039
of the cases. We're here to remind you that is

500
00:27:38,079 --> 00:27:42,000
not true. He has been linked via DNA to Robin Edwards,

501
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,160
David Nobling, and Teresa Howell. He has not been linked

502
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:50,440
by DNA to anyone else. There are still three cases

503
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:55,119
that need to be solved, Thomas Dawski, Al Haley and Phelpslower.

504
00:27:55,559 --> 00:27:57,799
So please, we don't want people to think that this

505
00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:58,519
is solved.

506
00:27:58,799 --> 00:27:59,039
Speaker 4: It's not.

507
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 2: If I have a criticism of the show, that's my

508
00:28:03,519 --> 00:28:07,200
strongest criticism. There are a couple of minor errors of fact,

509
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,279
as we talked about last time. My biggest concern is

510
00:28:11,319 --> 00:28:14,160
that I do not think you can say that Alan

511
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,279
Wade Wilmer Senior committed the Colonial Parkway murders. We don't

512
00:28:18,279 --> 00:28:20,880
have proof of that. And as I've said on social

513
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,240
media and I will continue to say, the FBI and

514
00:28:24,279 --> 00:28:26,519
the Virginia State Police have a lot more work to

515
00:28:26,559 --> 00:28:30,920
do in this case. These other cases are not solved.

516
00:28:31,319 --> 00:28:34,880
We've solved one of the Colonial Parkway murders, Robin Edwards

517
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,920
and David Nobling. As you mentioned, we've also discovered via

518
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,839
DNA testing that Wilmer is responsible for the Teresa.

519
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:42,599
Speaker 5: Howell rape murder.

520
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,559
Speaker 2: The rest of this case is still open and there's

521
00:28:45,599 --> 00:28:47,839
a lot more work that needs to be done. I

522
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,960
will push back strenuously on the idea that Wilmer is

523
00:28:52,039 --> 00:28:55,559
responsible for all of the double homicides and the Colonial

524
00:28:55,599 --> 00:28:58,200
Parkway murders. Nothing could be further from the truth.

525
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 3: I think it's it's easy for people to say that

526
00:29:01,799 --> 00:29:03,799
if he did one, he must have done them all.

527
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:09,519
But that's slipshod and that's not giving the families the

528
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,680
kind of information And dare I say it, Dare I

529
00:29:12,799 --> 00:29:15,359
use the word closure that they deserve. We all know

530
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,319
there's no such thing as closure, but that's the best

531
00:29:17,319 --> 00:29:19,119
thing I can think of right at the moment. Is

532
00:29:19,119 --> 00:29:21,400
it easier to go with the assumption that probably Wilmer

533
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,240
did all of them? Yeah, that's easier, But is it

534
00:29:23,279 --> 00:29:25,799
the truth not that we're aware of until we have

535
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,720
DNA to prove it. I agree with you one hundred percent.

536
00:29:28,759 --> 00:29:31,599
We cannot say that the case has been solved. And

537
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:35,079
that also means that the Virginia State Police and the

538
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,759
FBI still need to be looking at other single homicides

539
00:29:38,839 --> 00:29:41,880
that occurred around that same time period, like Laran Powell,

540
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,839
Brian Pattinger, and there are several others. Mary Kay's are

541
00:29:44,839 --> 00:29:47,359
harding up in Lancaster County if you've been to any

542
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,960
of our live events last year, you saw that we

543
00:29:50,039 --> 00:29:53,599
had a great deal of people who were interested in

544
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,720
the idea that Wilmer may have been committing crimes up

545
00:29:56,759 --> 00:29:59,440
there as well as down here. I don't think that's

546
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,680
something that the can reasonably ignore.

547
00:30:02,039 --> 00:30:02,559
Speaker 4: Chew that in.

548
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 3: We also want to encourage anybody who has any information

549
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,000
about Wilmer to please make sure that you call the

550
00:30:09,079 --> 00:30:12,559
FBI tip line at one eight hundred call FBI, email

551
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,920
tips to www dot tips dot FBI dot gov, or

552
00:30:17,119 --> 00:30:22,039
questions at vsp dot Virginia dot gov. Very very very

553
00:30:22,279 --> 00:30:25,599
very important that you continue sending in that information. There

554
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,759
is still so much we do not know about Wilmer,

555
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:29,599
and so to that in, we're going to answer as

556
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,359
many questions of these from our listeners as we can,

557
00:30:32,559 --> 00:30:34,519
but please keep in mind that there's not a lot

558
00:30:34,559 --> 00:30:37,000
that we know, but we'll try. Okay, So, the first

559
00:30:37,079 --> 00:30:40,720
question from Heather l is this, why wasn't Wilmer's body

560
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,359
found sooner? Why was he so decomposed? Was he estranged

561
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:45,119
from his family?

562
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,079
Speaker 2: The answer is Wilmer was very estranged from his family.

563
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,920
He was divorced, he had two grown kids, He was

564
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,039
very much on the outs with his family. He would

565
00:30:56,079 --> 00:30:59,880
occasionally see his ex wife. She actually delivered his mails.

566
00:31:00,079 --> 00:31:01,279
Speaker 5: She was a postal worker.

567
00:31:01,519 --> 00:31:04,799
Speaker 2: They would see each other, but sometimes not for weeks

568
00:31:04,839 --> 00:31:08,319
at a time. He died around Christmas time. They think

569
00:31:08,359 --> 00:31:11,200
he was at home, dead in his bed of natural

570
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,519
causes for perhaps as long as four weeks, which is

571
00:31:14,559 --> 00:31:18,400
why his body was in such a state of advanced decomposition.

572
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,640
He was very much estranged from his family. It's a

573
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,240
sad way to die. I think I'll leave it at that.

574
00:31:25,759 --> 00:31:29,119
Speaker 3: Heather also follows up with the second question, Has Wilmer's

575
00:31:29,119 --> 00:31:33,279
family brought forth any information that will aid in the investigation.

576
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 2: The answer is yes. We had a very interesting thing

577
00:31:36,759 --> 00:31:39,799
to develop over the last year or so, one of

578
00:31:39,839 --> 00:31:45,359
which was my phone started ringing shortly after the announcement

579
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:50,319
of the identification of the late Alan Wade Wilmer Senior

580
00:31:50,519 --> 00:31:53,400
as the killer of Robin Edwards and David Nobling linked

581
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,920
via DNA, also the fact that he had been linked

582
00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,279
via DNA to the Hampton murder of Teresa Howell, which

583
00:32:00,319 --> 00:32:03,559
was being investigated by the Hampton Police Department. My phone

584
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:08,599
started ringing with strange numbers. I like a lot of

585
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,839
people screening my calls to a certain extent, and I

586
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,519
typically won't take a call from someone I don't know. However,

587
00:32:16,799 --> 00:32:19,799
I started making an exception because I started getting a

588
00:32:19,839 --> 00:32:23,000
lot of calls from people in Virginia, and I thought

589
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:24,200
to myself.

590
00:32:23,799 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 5: Maybe I should talk to these people.

591
00:32:25,519 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 2: So I started getting calls from family members that were

592
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,400
members of the Wilmer family, and they were very polite.

593
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,880
They were a little tentative at first, you know, kind

594
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:37,920
of a you don't know me, but my name is

595
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,680
so and so. Now once people started identifying themselves, I

596
00:32:41,759 --> 00:32:44,079
was more than willing to talk to them. They were

597
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:48,839
polite and respectful. They were members of Wilmer's family. They

598
00:32:48,839 --> 00:32:51,920
were mortified by what had happened, and I ended up

599
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:57,079
having lengthy conversations with them about Alan Wade Wilmer, who

600
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,279
was their relatives. Now this is a shocking situation, cuation

601
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,720
for them to find themselves in as well. And remember

602
00:33:03,799 --> 00:33:08,640
I have no issue with Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior's family members,

603
00:33:08,799 --> 00:33:12,640
and if anything, they were trying to help. They did

604
00:33:12,759 --> 00:33:16,079
do the interviews with the FBI and the Virginia State Police.

605
00:33:16,359 --> 00:33:20,240
Those that were asked to provided DNA samples, so they

606
00:33:20,279 --> 00:33:23,640
did try to cooperate. One of the things that I

607
00:33:23,839 --> 00:33:27,759
found frustrating, and now I'm able to laugh a bit

608
00:33:27,799 --> 00:33:30,240
more about it a year has gone by, is that

609
00:33:30,319 --> 00:33:33,279
they told me that they had been told over and

610
00:33:33,319 --> 00:33:37,279
over again by the FBI don't talk to Bill Thomas.

611
00:33:37,839 --> 00:33:40,119
Of course, I'm filling in a few blanks here, but

612
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,720
after this came up three four, five times, I'm not joking.

613
00:33:44,039 --> 00:33:46,559
I actually said to our FBI agent, you know this

614
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,880
whole don't talk to Bill Thomas thing. It isn't working

615
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,640
because these people are calling me. I'm sure their initial

616
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,079
reaction was probably something along the lines of who the

617
00:33:56,079 --> 00:34:00,880
heck is Bill Thomas? And then and they told me this,

618
00:34:01,359 --> 00:34:05,640
Then they started doing some research themselves. Who the heck

619
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,320
is Bill Thomas? Then they started listening to Mind over Murder.

620
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,440
They realized who Kristin Dilly and Bill Thomas are. And

621
00:34:14,559 --> 00:34:17,079
one of the things they said to me was, it's

622
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,320
very clear that you and Kristin are doing your best

623
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,239
to put out correct information about this case and to

624
00:34:25,599 --> 00:34:30,199
answer questions about this case. Remember, they had a lot

625
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:35,119
of questions themselves, and just like I've commented on here

626
00:34:35,159 --> 00:34:38,039
on the podcast, the FBI and to a lesser extent,

627
00:34:38,079 --> 00:34:41,679
The Virginia State Police are not good about answering questions.

628
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,760
So for members of the Wilmer family who had lots

629
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,079
and lots of questions and really had no inkling that

630
00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:52,000
their ex husband, father, uncle, you name it, was a

631
00:34:52,039 --> 00:34:56,239
serial killer, he didn't display those kind of behaviors or

632
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,159
behave in any kind of suspicious way. And there is

633
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:04,079
some physical distance between Lancaster, Virginia, where he's from, and

634
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:10,400
the Hampton and surrounding towns area of the peninsula near

635
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,320
where the Colonial Park ray merge had happened. There's several

636
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,920
hours distance, and one of the family members said to me,

637
00:35:17,039 --> 00:35:20,599
I almost feel like there's two Allen's. The Allen we

638
00:35:20,679 --> 00:35:24,199
all knew up in Lancaster County and they always talked

639
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:28,480
about him as being down in Hampton in that area.

640
00:35:29,039 --> 00:35:32,960
This don't talk to Bill Thomas thing. If the FBI

641
00:35:33,199 --> 00:35:37,039
in particular wants to play these games and tell people

642
00:35:37,079 --> 00:35:39,400
not to talk to me, all I could say is

643
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,320
it's not working. So they've come forward and they've been very,

644
00:35:43,599 --> 00:35:47,280
very straightforward. They've tried to answer questions for me. They've

645
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,840
asked Kristen and me a ton of questions and We've

646
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,039
tried to answer their questions because they have a right

647
00:35:53,079 --> 00:35:55,719
to know, just like anybody else, and they have to

648
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,440
live through the shock of being told that their relative

649
00:35:59,599 --> 00:36:00,519
is here real killer.

650
00:36:01,079 --> 00:36:04,320
Speaker 3: This idea of there being the you know, Wilmer up

651
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:08,000
in Lancaster County the Wilmer down in Hampton, it really

652
00:36:08,079 --> 00:36:11,960
is sort of a doctor Jekyl mister Hyde mentality here,

653
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,679
and it's one that you also see with Demis Rader,

654
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,320
the BTK killer. I was listening to the really excellent

655
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:23,159
Monster BTK podcast that's put out by our friends at

656
00:36:23,199 --> 00:36:26,519
Tenderfoot TV. They did a really excellent job, you know,

657
00:36:26,559 --> 00:36:30,239
sort of illustrating this fact that serial killers really can

658
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:34,760
compartmentalize and they can be two separate people. It sounds like,

659
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,519
based on what these friends and acquaintances have told us,

660
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,880
that Wilmer really was a very separate person up there

661
00:36:42,119 --> 00:36:45,159
from what he was down here. Apparently is just not

662
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:49,360
that unusual for there to be this kind of compartmentalization.

663
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,920
So a couple of other people have asked this question.

664
00:36:53,079 --> 00:36:57,599
Chrissy as asked our family members talking about Wilmer Laura

665
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,280
and asked, have there been interviews with friends or acquaintances

666
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,840
since his name was released last year, and so the

667
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:05,880
answer to all of those is yes, and they have

668
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:10,519
been really very helpful and cooperative because this is, as

669
00:37:10,559 --> 00:37:11,760
Bill said, it's a.

670
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 4: Terrible shock to them.

671
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 3: I mean, I can't even imagine what it must be

672
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,119
like to wake up one day and realize that the

673
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,239
person that you thought you knew you had no idea

674
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,559
whatsoever what they were actually like. I can't even imagine.

675
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:28,800
I just mentioned Laura Ann, So let me ask one

676
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,519
more question from Laura Ann. Laura Ann asks it was

677
00:37:31,559 --> 00:37:34,119
eluded in the documentary that Wilmer was part of a

678
00:37:34,199 --> 00:37:36,440
local hunt club when they were talking about the New

679
00:37:36,519 --> 00:37:40,079
Kent case. Do we know if he was a member

680
00:37:40,159 --> 00:37:44,079
of the New Kent Hunt Club because Blaine Pardo indicated

681
00:37:44,119 --> 00:37:45,519
that they couldn't actually.

682
00:37:45,159 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 4: Be sure of that. Do we know, yes, Has it

683
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:49,760
been confirmed he was a member or no?

684
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 2: I think Blaine is correct. I don't think that's ever

685
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:56,960
been confirmed. Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior was a crack shot

686
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,159
and an expert bowman, and he had actually won on

687
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:04,920
all sorts of competitions and was considered the sort of

688
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,960
guy that could go out into the woods and survive

689
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:12,000
hunting and fishing, so he definitely knew his way around.

690
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,920
He appears to have been a member of some other

691
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,840
hunt clubs up closer to Lancaster, where he's from. They've

692
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,000
not found any direct connection to the New Kent Hunt

693
00:38:24,039 --> 00:38:28,239
Club where Anna, Maria Phelps and Daniel Lawer's bodies were found.

694
00:38:28,519 --> 00:38:32,639
Speaker 3: Next question is from Joanne b. Joanne asks was Wilmer's

695
00:38:32,639 --> 00:38:36,159
property ever searched by cadaver dogs. I think this is

696
00:38:36,199 --> 00:38:37,559
an excellent question.

697
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I think it's a little unlikely

698
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:46,639
that Wilmer would have moved bodies. I assume we're talking

699
00:38:46,679 --> 00:38:51,480
about Keith Colin Cassandra Haley, several hours up to Lancaster

700
00:38:51,599 --> 00:38:56,800
County where he's from. I just think that seems extremely unlikely. Now,

701
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,679
could they have searched his property with cadaver dogs. I'm

702
00:38:59,679 --> 00:39:01,519
not a where that they ever have. I think it's

703
00:39:01,519 --> 00:39:05,159
a great idea, although I do think it's unlikely that

704
00:39:05,199 --> 00:39:08,719
there are any bodies at that location. Although I guess

705
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:13,159
it depends on if Wilmer killed other individuals, maybe that

706
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:14,639
isn't so far fetched.

707
00:39:15,199 --> 00:39:18,119
Speaker 3: I think that if you've got a great way to

708
00:39:18,199 --> 00:39:21,800
dispose of bodies the river and then eventually the ocean,

709
00:39:22,119 --> 00:39:25,280
you would not be moving bodies up to your own

710
00:39:25,519 --> 00:39:27,480
location in Lancaster, it is.

711
00:39:27,519 --> 00:39:28,639
Speaker 4: It's an excellent question.

712
00:39:29,119 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 3: Debbie are one of our crack research assistants who is

713
00:39:33,199 --> 00:39:35,840
amazing and wonderful and with whom we could not do

714
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,880
this job without. Along with her bestie Nancy Asks, who

715
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,360
cleaned out Wilmer's house and boat after he died.

716
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 2: The family themselves, the Wilmers cleaned out the house after

717
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:46,719
he died.

718
00:39:47,119 --> 00:39:52,559
Speaker 3: Chrissy followed up with did Wilmer actually burn his boat?

719
00:39:53,159 --> 00:39:57,199
Speaker 2: For I did burn his boat. I find this very

720
00:39:57,679 --> 00:40:02,440
very strange. The Denny Way. His boat was a.

721
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 5: Wooden huled work boat.

722
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,559
Speaker 2: It was in his yard on a trailer for a

723
00:40:08,679 --> 00:40:11,519
number of years after he got out of being a

724
00:40:11,599 --> 00:40:15,840
waterman and had moved into mostly focusing on his tree business.

725
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,239
I find that idea that he burned his boat, which

726
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,920
the FBI did confirm to me. I find this very

727
00:40:23,039 --> 00:40:25,760
very strange, and I can't help but think. You know,

728
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,320
we talked about this in the last episode about the

729
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:32,599
disappearance of Keith Coloncussander Haley and finding Keith's car along

730
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,519
the York River, and then the dogs tracking their scent

731
00:40:36,639 --> 00:40:39,639
down to the edge of the water. I can't help

732
00:40:39,679 --> 00:40:43,840
but think that perhaps later in life Wilmer thought to himself,

733
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,760
I'm going to destroy the Denny Wade and any evidence

734
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,639
that would have been contained on that boat, because I

735
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,239
could easily see if Wilmer is involved in the disappearance

736
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:57,679
of Keith Cloncussander Haley, he might have either placed them

737
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,400
on board the boat living or dead. And then later

738
00:41:00,559 --> 00:41:05,639
realized as DNA became more advanced, perhaps he was more

739
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,119
cautious as a grow older that burning the Danny Wade

740
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:10,760
his boat was a smart move.

741
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 4: Yeah.

742
00:41:11,559 --> 00:41:14,159
Speaker 3: One of my very good friends, who comes from a

743
00:41:14,159 --> 00:41:17,760
whole family of waterman, when I spoke to him about

744
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:19,920
this case, he's very interested in it. He's followed it

745
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,320
for years as well. He wanted to see one of

746
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,039
the pictures of the Denny Wade and I showed it

747
00:41:24,079 --> 00:41:26,239
to him, and he said, there is no way anybody

748
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:28,800
with any amount of common sense would burn a boat

749
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,920
like that. He said that it's too precious, you wouldn't

750
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:33,719
do that. He goes, so, if he burned it, there's

751
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,840
a reason why he burned it. He fully buys into

752
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,079
the idea that something was on that boat evidence of

753
00:41:40,079 --> 00:41:42,599
some variety, and that was the reason that Wilmer would

754
00:41:42,599 --> 00:41:44,880
have burned it because I trust my friend's judgment.

755
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 4: I one hundred percent believed that.

756
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,119
Speaker 3: Another one from Debbie is where was Wilmer living and

757
00:41:50,199 --> 00:41:54,440
working between nineteen eighty nine and twenty seventeen. She says

758
00:41:54,599 --> 00:41:56,920
she doesn't think he's top killing for all of those years,

759
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:58,760
and I tend to agree with that. So what do

760
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,199
we know about Wilmer and he was living and working?

761
00:42:01,559 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 2: I don't know if I know a great detailed timeline.

762
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,239
I know that when there were problems on the Chesapeake

763
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:14,599
Bay and the catch available to watermen was greatly declining

764
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:18,639
because of pollution and runoff, I know there was the

765
00:42:18,679 --> 00:42:23,840
whole Save the Bay effort. The greatly diminished crab, oyster

766
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,719
and fishing catch that was available drove a lot of

767
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,519
people like Wilmer out of the business of being watermen,

768
00:42:31,679 --> 00:42:35,440
and he transitioned over to his tree business. I think

769
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:39,280
for a good portion of that time he was back

770
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:44,280
living at his family home in Lancaster County. I don't

771
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,239
know if I can give you it, like exact dates

772
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,880
or anything like that, but this is something that the

773
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,320
FBI and the Virginia State Police did take a look.

774
00:42:51,159 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 3: At see and I think that this is the sort

775
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,320
of thing that citizen sleuths and citizen detectives would be

776
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,199
quite good at trying to figure out. You know, I'd

777
00:43:00,199 --> 00:43:03,079
love to be able to crowdsource some information on where

778
00:43:03,119 --> 00:43:06,199
exactly was Wilmer from eighty nine to twenty seventeen. Where

779
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,840
was this guy, who was he talking to, where was

780
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,599
he working from, who was he socializing with? Again, we

781
00:43:11,679 --> 00:43:14,960
do encourage anybody who can fill in those blanks. If

782
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,199
you were buddies with Wilmer between eighty nine and twenty seventeen,

783
00:43:18,519 --> 00:43:20,920
if you were working with him, living near him, if

784
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,199
you were associating with him, if you were having drinks

785
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:25,400
with him at a bar or something like that, please

786
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:26,480
reach out either.

787
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:28,519
Speaker 4: To us, to the FBI, to the VSP.

788
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,679
Speaker 3: There is still so much about this guy that we

789
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:33,719
don't know, and we need to be able to put

790
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:37,079
those things together. So if you have information, please reach out.

791
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:39,480
We appreciate it. We still have a lot that we

792
00:43:39,519 --> 00:43:44,239
need to cover on American detective and questions about Wilmer

793
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,639
and the rest of these cases in general. So we

794
00:43:46,679 --> 00:43:49,360
will come back to all of these questions at a

795
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:51,760
later date. But thank you to everybody who has watched

796
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,079
so far, who was commented, who has listened, who has

797
00:43:54,119 --> 00:43:57,639
asked questions. We really appreciate you, and we do encourage

798
00:43:57,639 --> 00:44:00,079
you to get the word out to family, friends than

799
00:44:00,199 --> 00:44:03,440
everybody who's interested in this case, Please do watch American Detective,

800
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:05,960
like or follow our Facebook pages, and of course listen

801
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:07,760
to the podcast that's going to do it. For this

802
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,199
episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening.

803
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:11,360
We'll see you next time.

804
00:44:20,519 --> 00:44:24,039
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and

805
00:44:24,159 --> 00:44:25,559
Another Dog Productions.

806
00:44:26,119 --> 00:44:29,480
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807
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,239
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808
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:34,920
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809
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:39,480
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810
00:44:40,159 --> 00:44:43,320
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811
00:44:43,519 --> 00:44:46,119
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812
00:44:46,199 --> 00:44:48,079
Murders on Facebook.

813
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,800
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at

814
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:52,480
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815
00:44:52,960 --> 00:45:11,119
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