1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,759 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,640 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,079 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 4: Welcome to Mind Ever Murderer. I'm Kristin Dilly. 14 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas, and we're. 15 00:00:52,439 --> 00:00:56,359 Speaker 4: Joined today by Renee Williams of the National Center for 16 00:00:56,679 --> 00:00:59,439 Victims of Crime or Renee. Thank you so much for 17 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:00,880 joining us today. I Mind Never. 18 00:01:00,799 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 5: Murderer, absolutely, thank you for having me. 19 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 4: Can you go ahead and start by telling us a 20 00:01:05,599 --> 00:01:09,280 little bit about your educational and professional background, how you 21 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:12,439 got into this particular role at NCVC. 22 00:01:13,519 --> 00:01:17,799 Speaker 5: It's been a slightly circuitous route here. I actually started 23 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,040 as a theater major in undergrad and my degree actually 24 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,560 says acting. That was in Pittsburgh. But while I was 25 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:28,519 in acting school, I realized that was not the way 26 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:30,760 I wanted to use the talents that I had been 27 00:01:30,799 --> 00:01:32,680 given and spend the rest of my life. So I 28 00:01:32,719 --> 00:01:34,920 went to law school after that and graduated from the 29 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:39,040 University of Pittsburgh grapesed around for a while in corporate 30 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:43,920 law and in litigation before becoming a nonprofit executive. And 31 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,280 I started out at an organization called Laurel Legal Services 32 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:51,040 in Pennsylvania and ended up coming to the National Center 33 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:52,959 for Victims of Crime. So what I do now is 34 00:01:52,959 --> 00:01:55,560 a little bit of a blend of both my legal 35 00:01:55,599 --> 00:01:58,400 studies but also nonprofit management. 36 00:01:59,079 --> 00:02:02,519 Speaker 4: And for anybody who does not know about the National 37 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:05,439 Center for Victims of Crime, can you tell us a 38 00:02:05,519 --> 00:02:08,680 little bit about what services it offers and how it 39 00:02:08,719 --> 00:02:09,759 actually got started. 40 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,039 Speaker 5: Sure, So, I think for your podcast listeners, I'll take 41 00:02:14,039 --> 00:02:16,080 the second part of the question first because it'll be 42 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:20,159 a little more interesting. We actually were founded by one 43 00:02:20,159 --> 00:02:23,919 of the true crime drama in the United States, which 44 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:28,240 was the Sunny Bombuloh case. Sonny was a very wealthy Eres. 45 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:31,599 She was also royalty. She had married a prince, and 46 00:02:31,879 --> 00:02:35,919 her second husband, Klaud Bambuloh, attempted to kill her by 47 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,840 injecting her with insulin. He was having multiple affairs. Their 48 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,400 story is actually hold in a movie called A Reversal 49 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:48,800 of Fortune. Jeremy Irons won his first Academy Award for it. 50 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:52,960 He played Claud Bambulah and Glenn Cloth played Sonny Bombuloh. 51 00:02:53,439 --> 00:02:55,080 But really the good part of the story is that 52 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,120 Sonny's children were so appalled by how they were treated 53 00:02:58,159 --> 00:03:00,840 throughout the justice system. Because this is really before victim's 54 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:04,800 rights were a movement. They took all of their inheritance 55 00:03:04,879 --> 00:03:07,039 to found our center. So it was originally the Sunny 56 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:11,280 Vombulo Victims Center, and it's developed. We've gone under three 57 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,039 name changes, I believe to become the National Center for 58 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,840 Victims of Crime. But we really started as one of 59 00:03:16,879 --> 00:03:19,919 the first advocacy organizations in the United States to make 60 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,560 sure that victims had a voice in the justice system 61 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,039 and that they had rights and that those rights were acknowledged. 62 00:03:25,879 --> 00:03:29,919 So we've developed from that advocacy center to providing victim 63 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,159 services as well. So we still provide some advocacy, but 64 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,599 we also make sure that we have two hotlines for victims, 65 00:03:36,599 --> 00:03:39,879 so we're providing direct victim services, and we also train 66 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,479 anybody who helps a victim in the justice system, so judges, 67 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,199 police officers, anybody who sees a victim or is helping 68 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,439 the victims through that justice process, we're in their training them, 69 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:52,080 making sure they're trauma informed. 70 00:03:52,599 --> 00:03:56,879 Speaker 2: When we talk about looking for podcasts and other media 71 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:02,879 outlets to be victim focused and survivor focused, you all 72 00:04:02,919 --> 00:04:06,159 are actually taking this from a much broader perspective, which 73 00:04:06,199 --> 00:04:11,039 is all of the components and participants in the justice 74 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,159 system all need to be thinking about this. Are we 75 00:04:14,199 --> 00:04:14,919 on the right track? 76 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,079 Speaker 5: So our true crime work is only a small piece 77 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:22,600 of the work we do, and it actually just sprung 78 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,639 up in the past two years. Really one of our 79 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,680 strongest suits is making sure that we are working with 80 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,199 all victim services to make sure that they are not 81 00:04:33,319 --> 00:04:35,959 doing more harm to victims in the long run. 82 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 2: When you say they RENEE, who's the they you're referencing. 83 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 5: Judges, prosecutors, police officers. It's interesting because there are a 84 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,519 lot of times and this is not answering your question, 85 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:53,319 but it's going off on a tangent on my own. 86 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:56,959 I will keep under control later, but we're going to 87 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:58,600 talk about this right now. There are a lot of 88 00:04:58,639 --> 00:05:01,439 times that you will hear people say a victim's voice 89 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:05,519 is involved, and it's not truly. Prosecutors do amazing work. 90 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,480 They work very hard. They're an integral part of the 91 00:05:08,639 --> 00:05:12,879 justice system, but they do not represent victims, either officially 92 00:05:13,439 --> 00:05:17,079 in their formal tasks of being a prosecutor, but also unofficially. 93 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,480 So a lot of times, if you're watching true crime 94 00:05:19,519 --> 00:05:23,040 shows or in policy decisions, folks will say, we talk 95 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,319 to the victims because the prosecutors stepped in. Prosecutors are 96 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,160 not trained to be victims centered, and their job is 97 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,120 not to represent victims. Their job is to ensure that 98 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:38,079 justice is done, and so that sometimes means not prosecuting 99 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:41,600 a case. That sometimes means making decisions that are adverse 100 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,879 to what the victims might like. Police officers are the 101 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:50,800 same way, and sometimes folks see those two elements as 102 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:52,920 being victims centered, but they're not. And so we do 103 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,120 a lot of the training on how those specific groups 104 00:05:56,199 --> 00:05:59,639 and really anybody within the justice system can work with 105 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,199 victims in a more meaningful way. 106 00:06:04,079 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 4: At INCVC, you have a vast array of resources that 107 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,480 are available for anyone who's been a victim of crime, 108 00:06:12,399 --> 00:06:15,439 and that's either directly, like my podcast partner here, a 109 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,759 secondary victim because he had a family member who was victimized. 110 00:06:19,079 --> 00:06:22,519 So what are some of the things that you, as 111 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:26,199 a nonprofit can offer to crime victims when they reach 112 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:27,240 out to ENDCBC. 113 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,399 Speaker 5: Again, we do have the two hotlines, one is DC 114 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,040 based and one is national, and we have not a 115 00:06:34,079 --> 00:06:38,160 dozen victim assistant specialists who are trained to walk somebody through. 116 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,199 We can do safety planning, we can point them to resources, 117 00:06:42,199 --> 00:06:45,800 we can explain the laws and regulations in their state 118 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,439 to them, and we can also do warm handoffs two 119 00:06:48,759 --> 00:06:52,959 more local resources. We also have an attorney referral service 120 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,000 that is available where we do try to connect victims 121 00:06:56,079 --> 00:06:59,240 to civil attorneys if they'd like to pursue a lawsuit. 122 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:01,720 And then and again, a large part of what we 123 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,480 do is training other folks who interact with victims to 124 00:07:05,519 --> 00:07:08,279 make sure that there is a consistent victim experience. 125 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,879 Speaker 4: One of the things that a lot of crime victims 126 00:07:11,879 --> 00:07:15,399 in their families may not realize that they have is 127 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:20,600 a set of rights accorded to them through the Crime 128 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:25,560 Victims' Rights Act. Can you discuss what are some of 129 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:30,120 those rights that all crime victims are afforded and what 130 00:07:30,199 --> 00:07:33,120 can NCVC do to help someone who feels that maybe 131 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,920 those rights have been violated or not upheld to the 132 00:07:35,959 --> 00:07:37,519 greatest standard that they could be. 133 00:07:38,279 --> 00:07:42,959 Speaker 5: So the rights that are codified are really, unfortunately only 134 00:07:43,079 --> 00:07:46,839 applicable within the justice system if there is a prosecution. 135 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,920 By and large, those surround the right to be notified 136 00:07:51,959 --> 00:07:53,680 and the right to be present. You have to remember 137 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,839 before the eighties, a lot of times victims and their 138 00:07:56,839 --> 00:08:00,040 families were only viewed as witnesses. Drag somebody in and 139 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,040 let them do a testify, and then they trapes them out. 140 00:08:03,759 --> 00:08:06,160 They didn't necessarily have the right to be present at 141 00:08:06,199 --> 00:08:10,399 all hearings. We still see quite a bit of trapesing 142 00:08:10,399 --> 00:08:13,439 over crime victims' rights when it involves the notification of 143 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,000 a release. So if your perpetrator is being released, you 144 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,720 do have a right to be notified. That often doesn't happen, 145 00:08:18,759 --> 00:08:22,120 And where it came up very publicly recently is in 146 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:27,000 the anansied case. So that case was overturned. It wasn't 147 00:08:27,079 --> 00:08:32,159 overturned on anything other than the victim's family was never 148 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,519 notified that the court was taking this action. That is 149 00:08:35,639 --> 00:08:38,120 an absolute core tenant. They have a right to be 150 00:08:38,159 --> 00:08:40,559 heard and they have a right to be present. Now, 151 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,960 what NCBC can do if individuals feel like these rights 152 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,320 are being violated is if they call, we can try 153 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,440 to point them in the direction of where they can go. 154 00:08:49,879 --> 00:08:52,320 We can try to give them language surrounding what they 155 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:56,919 need to say to trigger those rights. Unfortunately, our justice 156 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,279 system still isn't set up for victims. So even with 157 00:09:00,519 --> 00:09:04,440 all of these rights, that doesn't mean that they're going 158 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:09,919 to be enforced, and there's no overarching oversight bodies. So 159 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,600 I get a lot of emails with people saying this 160 00:09:12,639 --> 00:09:15,240 is happening to me and you should punish them. I 161 00:09:15,279 --> 00:09:18,840 don't have that mechanism, and unfortunately very few things do. 162 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,159 There are appeals courts where you can try to enforce rights, 163 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,960 and in certain cases they're ethics panels, but otherwise it's 164 00:09:26,039 --> 00:09:29,519 still tough to make sure they're enforced if they're being violated. 165 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 2: How the heck do stuff like this happened Renee? Why 166 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:39,320 are victims and survivors family members completely forgotten in this process? 167 00:09:40,399 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 5: I think there are two answers. First, is we have 168 00:09:43,279 --> 00:09:47,759 a constitution that is based in defendance rights. And I 169 00:09:47,879 --> 00:09:51,320 don't disagree that's correct, but I think that we've let 170 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:56,159 the pendulum fly way too far onto that side. And 171 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,679 there's a wonderful meme out right now. It's talking about 172 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,080 women rights, but it actually applies to victim's rights too, 173 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:04,240 And when it says women's rights, it shows the pie 174 00:10:04,279 --> 00:10:07,399 chart and it says, just because somebody else has rights, 175 00:10:07,399 --> 00:10:09,480 doesn't mean you have rights taken away. This is not 176 00:10:09,519 --> 00:10:12,200 a pie. There's not less rights for you. And I 177 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,559 think it's the same thing with victims rights. But people 178 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:18,080 don't quite understand that rights in the justice system aren't 179 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,120 a pie. Making sure that victim's rights are enforced doesn't 180 00:10:21,159 --> 00:10:23,919 mean you take defendants rights away. But a lot of 181 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:25,960 people don't see it like that, and so there's been 182 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,279 a real focus on defendants rights. And I will say 183 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,879 the other issue we're seeing and it is where I 184 00:10:31,919 --> 00:10:34,840 can really jork out, So stop me, give me the signal. 185 00:10:34,519 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 4: And you want to set That's been a lot. 186 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,759 Speaker 5: Of this topic for ten years, and I'm passionate about it. 187 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,200 We have this thing called the justice gap in the 188 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,480 United States, and it's when are you poor enough to 189 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:48,360 get a lawyer? And when are you rich enough to 190 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:50,360 get a lawyer? And when you're very poor, when does 191 00:10:50,399 --> 00:10:54,360 the lawyer attached? All criminal defendants get a lawyer. Not 192 00:10:54,399 --> 00:10:56,440 going to sit here and argue about how great they are. 193 00:10:56,759 --> 00:10:59,720 I know, I've heard it all. I've seen bad public 194 00:10:59,759 --> 00:11:02,799 defe I've seen great public defenders. Doesn't matter. If you've 195 00:11:02,799 --> 00:11:06,200 committed a crime, you get a public defender. Victims don't 196 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:08,879 ever get an attorney, first of all, but also we 197 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,320 don't get any attorney in the civil justice system, So 198 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:16,120 victims of domestic violence don't necessarily. 199 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:17,159 Speaker 4: Get an attorney. 200 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 5: And it matters on how poor you are. And so 201 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:26,360 until that justice gap is addressed, until victims get representation 202 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,039 in court, their rights are still going to be at 203 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,080 play and possibly ignored. 204 00:11:33,039 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 4: If you were queen of the justice system running the world, 205 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,360 whatever you want to call it, and you could add 206 00:11:42,799 --> 00:11:47,600 some rights that all victims are guaranteed. What are some 207 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,120 of the things that you would want to add that 208 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:52,320 every victim is guaranteed no matter what. 209 00:11:53,519 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 5: The funny thing is, I think those rights are already 210 00:11:55,639 --> 00:11:58,559 there and they're codified. They're just not followed. Okay, that 211 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,639 is the right to have notice of any proceedings. That is, 212 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:05,399 the right to be present at all hearings and to 213 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,679 at least know what is happening. The only thing I 214 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:11,559 would add would be the right to have a voice 215 00:12:11,799 --> 00:12:14,840 in all proceedings. I don't know how we would make 216 00:12:14,879 --> 00:12:18,759 that happen, because a prosecutor, again does not represent the victim. 217 00:12:18,799 --> 00:12:21,799 They represent the state, and in a criminal case, that's 218 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:23,879 going to be tough. But it's that a lot of 219 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,919 the actual laws are already there. It's just enacting them 220 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,080 and making sure that they are observed. 221 00:12:30,879 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 4: Just as a quick follow up to that, I know 222 00:12:32,519 --> 00:12:34,960 Bill wants to turn here in a second. Do you 223 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,919 feel like victim's impact statements in the courtroom? Is that 224 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,399 enough of a voice or does there need to be 225 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,279 more opportunities for victims to have voices? 226 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 5: There need to be way more opportunities. Victim impact statements 227 00:12:48,639 --> 00:12:52,759 are great. They certainly allow the victim a way to 228 00:12:52,879 --> 00:12:56,120 heal and tell their story, and we've seen a lot 229 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,799 of the victim impact statements do good. However, keep in 230 00:12:59,799 --> 00:13:02,000 mind and that's at the end of a trial. So 231 00:13:02,159 --> 00:13:04,039 I think victims need to have a right to have 232 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,279 a voice at the very beginning of a trial. Is 233 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:11,600 this plea bargain? Good? Do I agree with it? And 234 00:13:11,639 --> 00:13:13,320 that's where they're kept out. 235 00:13:14,519 --> 00:13:17,519 Speaker 2: I'm going to speak for myself here. We haven't had 236 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:21,200 a single arrest yet in the Colonial Parkway murders. But 237 00:13:21,399 --> 00:13:26,600 even in discussing theoreticals which make me crazy to start 238 00:13:26,639 --> 00:13:34,159 with the pushback from the FBI against family participation or input, 239 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:38,519 or even my sharing my thoughts, it feels like such 240 00:13:38,519 --> 00:13:43,519 a brick wall that the idea that, for instance, if 241 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:47,279 charges are ever brought in our case, it's likely that 242 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:52,399 there could be federal charges because at least two of 243 00:13:52,399 --> 00:13:55,799 the double homicides happened inside a national park and therefore 244 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,399 would be federal charges. And then two of the double 245 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:02,919 homicides in the Colonial Parkway happened outside a national park 246 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,440 and therefore would likely be state or local charges. When 247 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:10,440 I've even mentioned the possibility of speaking to the federal 248 00:14:10,519 --> 00:14:15,600 prosecutor about this, I get so much pushback it's they're 249 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:20,080 not even subtle. I already anticipate that someday, note the 250 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:24,320 optimism when arrests are made in our case, I'm fully 251 00:14:24,399 --> 00:14:27,480 expecting I'm going to meet that brick wall personally, because 252 00:14:27,559 --> 00:14:31,519 that's just the way it feels, and we're only part 253 00:14:31,559 --> 00:14:35,399 way through. Dare I say the pursuit of justice a 254 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:40,519 word I'm not completely comfortable with. Wow, the attitude. Even 255 00:14:40,559 --> 00:14:43,399 when I've said I'd like to speak to the federal prosecutor, 256 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:44,639 they're having none of it. 257 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 5: What are the reasons they give? Ask the podcaster thank 258 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:49,960 you for the podcast. 259 00:14:50,519 --> 00:14:56,879 Speaker 2: Well, basically the implication, and they're clever in their phrasing, 260 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,720 but the implication is that I have no role, that 261 00:15:00,759 --> 00:15:05,759 my family would have no role whatsoever in discussing how 262 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:07,639 a prosecution might proceed. 263 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:13,639 Speaker 5: It's interesting because victims are the moral core of the 264 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,679 justice system, but we've managed to cut them out completely 265 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:21,720 almost And there's this idea of because they wouldn't know 266 00:15:21,799 --> 00:15:25,759 what they're doing and they don't know the technicalities. All true. 267 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:31,000 Possibly the problems is that we've excluded individuals, but it's 268 00:15:31,039 --> 00:15:34,799 not making it better for anybody. The justice system is 269 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,759 not working for anyone. The justice system does not work 270 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,360 for those accused of crimes either. It really doesn't, and 271 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,840 so we've created this hap hazard system and we have 272 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,120 excuses everywhere. I believe in the justice system. I believe 273 00:15:48,159 --> 00:15:52,279 in the promises of the Constitution. I don't think it's 274 00:15:52,559 --> 00:15:56,000 working the way it was meant to right now. And 275 00:15:56,039 --> 00:15:59,679 I think that's because we like band aid approaches in 276 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,320 the UNI United States, and we don't like to dig 277 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,440 into the wound, and so we have this kind of 278 00:16:06,519 --> 00:16:09,440 health of sticks made up, and we're afraid to knock 279 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:11,559 the health of sticks over, so we just patch it 280 00:16:11,639 --> 00:16:14,720 up where we can. One of the things that I 281 00:16:14,759 --> 00:16:18,200 genuinely believe is that if we paid more attention to 282 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,559 victims and dumped one fifth of the money that we 283 00:16:21,919 --> 00:16:25,960 dump into incarcerating people, if we dumped that money into 284 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,919 victim services, the minute of crime is committed and we're 285 00:16:28,919 --> 00:16:32,159 able to get victims help, you would start to see 286 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:33,600 crime rates go down. 287 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,399 Speaker 2: Why in your opinion, would crime rates go down. 288 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,159 Speaker 5: So what we know about incarceration is about ninety percent 289 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,679 of the individuals who are incarcerated have been victims of 290 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:47,679 crime themselves. Most of the time they have not received services. 291 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,159 A lot of it is domestic violence and childhood trauma 292 00:16:51,279 --> 00:16:54,720 and their very high aces adverse childhood experience scores. Once 293 00:16:54,759 --> 00:16:59,559 you start to survey incarcerated individuals, those individuals have not 294 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,639 been given and the tools do not re enter a cycle. 295 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,799 Speaker 2: Of violence, and that certainly even from when you read 296 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,160 about Obviously, Kristin and I are following a lot of cases, 297 00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:12,279 not just the Colonial Parkray murders, but dozens of other 298 00:17:12,319 --> 00:17:15,720 cases around the country, and people approach us constantly and 299 00:17:15,839 --> 00:17:18,640 ask us would we be willing to cover a particular 300 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,559 case or discuss a particular case. But even in the 301 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:28,880 consumer online reporting newspaper level, you often see that the 302 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,759 offenders have a history of violence, and that doesn't come 303 00:17:32,799 --> 00:17:37,000 from nowhere. That comes from as you're saying, households full 304 00:17:37,039 --> 00:17:41,279 of abuse, whether it's sexual or physical or mental. These 305 00:17:41,279 --> 00:17:45,200 are damage to individuals in many examples who are lashing out. 306 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,279 I don't want to make it sound like I'm completely 307 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:51,240 absolving offenders of their crimes. I'm not saying that at all. 308 00:17:51,279 --> 00:17:54,200 But you can see how someone that's been through what 309 00:17:54,279 --> 00:17:57,440 they've been through ends up lashing out and hurting people 310 00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:58,039 in some way. 311 00:17:58,799 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 5: And it's a very delicate conversation to have. There are 312 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,680 a lot of individuals in the victim services world that 313 00:18:04,759 --> 00:18:07,440 get very unhappy when you say things like hurt people. 314 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:08,880 So we try to avoid saying. 315 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 2: That I'm speaking as the brother of a murder victim. 316 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:13,119 I don't know what other term you want me to use. 317 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,759 Speaker 5: Well, And that's the thing is, so a lot of 318 00:18:15,799 --> 00:18:19,240 folks will kick back and say, Bill, you're a great example. Yes, 319 00:18:19,279 --> 00:18:21,680 I was hurt, but I didn't go do harm, and 320 00:18:21,759 --> 00:18:25,160 so it's not an excuse. That is correct. But we 321 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:29,759 also know how trauma works, and if you don't address 322 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,440 a pain immediately and you allow things to fester, you 323 00:18:33,519 --> 00:18:37,440 can't predict which way somebody is going to go. We 324 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,759 get asked a lot. I get asked a lot when 325 00:18:39,799 --> 00:18:42,039 we're speaking because we do a lot of prison reform. 326 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,759 What my views are on mandatory minimums, what my views 327 00:18:45,759 --> 00:18:50,200 are on mandatory maximums, and I'm against mandatory anythings. I 328 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:52,079 don't believe that either works because I think you have 329 00:18:52,079 --> 00:18:53,480 to look at the person, and that's what you have 330 00:18:53,519 --> 00:18:56,880 a judge there for, is to look at each person. 331 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,319 But I will say that a lot of people tried 332 00:19:00,319 --> 00:19:03,279 to say there's absolute evil in this world. I don't 333 00:19:03,319 --> 00:19:06,359 quite believe that, and I think that you can't make 334 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,839 snap decisions on anybody. But I do think that if 335 00:19:09,839 --> 00:19:14,400 we addressed victimization and trauma at its genesis, when it 336 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,359 first happens, you would start to see the level of 337 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:22,920 at least violent crime go down, and it would take decades. 338 00:19:23,039 --> 00:19:25,720 It would not be away. This would not be oh, look, 339 00:19:25,759 --> 00:19:28,160 Renee was right, or we watched the crime rates drop 340 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:32,119 this year. It would take decades. I think that there's 341 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,519 it's so cyclical when you're talking about violence, crime and victimization. 342 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,559 Speaker 2: But what would you have me say different when I 343 00:19:39,599 --> 00:19:43,640 say her? Is there another word that's somehow more? 344 00:19:44,279 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 5: It would not even be no, And it wouldn't be 345 00:19:47,279 --> 00:19:48,599 that I would have I'm trying to think of how 346 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,319 to say this. It wouldn't even be the word. It's 347 00:19:51,519 --> 00:19:55,839 not how to say it. It's that there are many 348 00:19:56,319 --> 00:20:00,759 victim advocates who would say, but I was and I 349 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:05,960 did not. That's the sensitive point for a lot of individuals. 350 00:20:06,519 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 4: Renee. I want to take a second and talk about 351 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,039 the last place where we saw you, which was at 352 00:20:12,079 --> 00:20:15,640 Crime Con in Orlando, which it feels much longer ago 353 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:17,839 than it actually was. It's only a couple of weeks, 354 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,359 and you moderated a wonderful panel at crime Con with 355 00:20:21,519 --> 00:20:24,359 my podcast partner Bill Thomas. So I want to talk 356 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,119 about the panel, but I also am just curious who 357 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,480 reached out first. Did Crime Con reach out to you. 358 00:20:29,519 --> 00:20:31,359 Did you reach out to them? Like, how did this 359 00:20:31,799 --> 00:20:33,200 partnership come into being? 360 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 5: I think it was mutual. Maybe Kim Goldman and Jim Clement, 361 00:20:39,079 --> 00:20:41,599 who are very involved in Crime Conn, are both on 362 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,079 our board of directors, and so last year, when we 363 00:20:45,079 --> 00:20:47,480 were trying to think of ways to get the NCBC 364 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,240 name out in a board meeting, crime Con came up 365 00:20:51,279 --> 00:20:54,400 as an idea. And so I believe Kim reached out 366 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,039 to the Crime Con folks and said, you asked me 367 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,799 to speak this year, but you have to have Renee too, 368 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,160 and they very graciously accepted, And so I got to 369 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,519 moderate two panels last year and we got invited back 370 00:21:06,519 --> 00:21:06,880 this year. 371 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 2: Kristin and I had both seen him speak at Crime 372 00:21:12,759 --> 00:21:14,599 Kind a couple of years ago. I want to say 373 00:21:14,599 --> 00:21:17,480 that was in Nashville, but I remember it was a 374 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:23,400 packed ballroom, and she's an amazing speaker. Of course, she 375 00:21:23,799 --> 00:21:27,440 spoke about losing her brother Ron to a violent crime, 376 00:21:27,599 --> 00:21:30,720 and she's a tremendous advocate. I didn't get a chance 377 00:21:30,759 --> 00:21:33,119 to just say hello to her, but I just walked 378 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:38,359 away completely blown away by how passionate and incredibly well 379 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,920 spoken she was. So I want to be Kim Goldman 380 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:42,640 when I grow up. 381 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:47,519 Speaker 5: He too, and her hair is perfect. I had this 382 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,200 discussion with her what because it was seven am. We 383 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:52,960 were at a conference and she walked in and her 384 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,799 hair was perfect, and she gave me your tips. None 385 00:21:55,839 --> 00:21:57,599 of them have worked for me, but yes, I also 386 00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,079 would like to be Kim Goldman when I go. 387 00:22:00,599 --> 00:22:02,599 Speaker 2: I'm not going to worry about the hair thing. It's 388 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:04,000 too far gone. 389 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 4: So the panel that you moderated, which Bill also attended, 390 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,759 was eight Rules for being an Ethical True Crime Fan. 391 00:22:14,039 --> 00:22:17,079 And as soon as I heard that topic, Bill called 392 00:22:17,079 --> 00:22:18,799 me and said, Hey, guess what I'm getting to do 393 00:22:18,839 --> 00:22:20,960 a panel. I get to do it with Kathy Kleiner, 394 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:22,440 I get to do it with Brian, and I get 395 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,519 to do it with Renee Williams. So excited, I said, 396 00:22:24,519 --> 00:22:27,480 what's it about? He said, eight rules for being an 397 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,720 ethical true crime fan? And I said that is great. 398 00:22:29,759 --> 00:22:33,400 I can get behind that. Can you ay tell us 399 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:35,160 how did that come about? In BA? Can you do 400 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:36,119 the rules please? 401 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,519 Speaker 5: So how it came about was last year when we 402 00:22:39,559 --> 00:22:42,480 went to Crime Con. We were so embraced by the 403 00:22:42,519 --> 00:22:44,759 true crime community, but there was a lot of confusion 404 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,039 and people were asking questions about how can I be 405 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,200 good true crime consumers? And so I started to dig 406 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,480 into what was happening in the true crime world, and 407 00:22:54,519 --> 00:22:56,400 I found a lot of really good things, and I 408 00:22:56,559 --> 00:23:01,200 found a lot of really appalling things. Everybody, and not 409 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,400 to knock this podcast, I think the world of you both, 410 00:23:03,519 --> 00:23:05,160 but there are a few others, and Phila and I 411 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,279 have had this conversation, so I feel safe saying this. 412 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:09,680 There are a few others that you give somebody a 413 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,279 mic and a Wikipedia page and they think they're a 414 00:23:12,279 --> 00:23:17,799 true crime expert, and ye too, it's terrifying to me. 415 00:23:18,039 --> 00:23:21,599 But to be fair, my first thought was why can't 416 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:23,799 they follow the rules? And then I thought, because there 417 00:23:23,839 --> 00:23:27,680 are no rules out there, and so you can't get 418 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:29,359 mad at people for not following the rules of the 419 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,200 road if you don't give them the rules of the road. 420 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,039 So we thought, how do we do this and how 421 00:23:34,079 --> 00:23:37,000 do we start to make the change in this community 422 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,680 in ways that are meaningful and non judgmental and are 423 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:45,319 actually achievable. And so we have two other media guides 424 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,119 coming out. One is for victims how to navigate the media, 425 00:23:49,759 --> 00:23:52,200 and one is for all content creators. Now we had 426 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,200 media guides for a long time, but they were for 427 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,240 journalists who abound by their own rules, And so we thought, 428 00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:58,640 what if there are people that just want to do 429 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,880 a good job that they've not had to an ethics course, 430 00:24:01,599 --> 00:24:04,720 So we are trying to give them a crash course, 431 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,279 not in ethics, but in how can I speak to victims? 432 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,559 And if I got into true crime to do good, 433 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,519 to tell somebody's stories, how can I do that in 434 00:24:13,559 --> 00:24:15,480 a way that does not either do harm to the 435 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,880 investigation or for their traumatized folks. Part of that was 436 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,559 also coming up with rules for the public of how 437 00:24:22,599 --> 00:24:25,359 they can be true crime consumers. And again that was 438 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,519 because we had such a good experience last year and 439 00:24:27,559 --> 00:24:30,599 people so fully embraced it that we thought, if we 440 00:24:30,599 --> 00:24:33,240 could get some folks attention around this, I bet we 441 00:24:33,279 --> 00:24:34,559 can start to make some changes. 442 00:24:35,279 --> 00:24:38,039 Speaker 4: And I love that concept, because you're right, it is 443 00:24:38,079 --> 00:24:42,359 a wonderful, warm, loving community for the most part of 444 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,799 people who really want to try to do good. There 445 00:24:44,839 --> 00:24:46,680 are a couple of people out there who are like 446 00:24:46,839 --> 00:24:49,920 determined to be chaos and cause trouble, but I would 447 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,559 say any community has those. It is so nice to 448 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,799 know that there is this set of rules out there, 449 00:24:56,839 --> 00:24:58,440 and I'm hoping that at some point or another we 450 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,200 can all kind of embrace that so that it just 451 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,640 becomes like these are the standard norms by which we operate. 452 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 453 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:21,200 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 454 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:22,119 mindover Murder. 455 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:26,799 Speaker 4: Can you go over those eight rules real quick and 456 00:25:26,799 --> 00:25:29,160 then we can get into more of them in more detail. 457 00:25:29,559 --> 00:25:31,880 Speaker 5: Sure, So these are the rules for the general public 458 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,680 when consuming, not necessarily podcasters, because we're hoping the general 459 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:37,960 public will take it and say, hey, we are not 460 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,759 going to listen to this anymore if you are not 461 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,640 being at the goal. So the first is there is 462 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,039 no such thing as victim lifts true crime. 463 00:25:47,319 --> 00:25:49,599 Speaker 2: We're both giving that a big thumbs up. Yep. 464 00:25:50,599 --> 00:25:54,759 Speaker 5: The second is there is no timeline for trauma. The 465 00:25:54,799 --> 00:26:01,480 third is investigate, investigate, investigate. The fourth is require the 466 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,200 presence of victim's voices. 467 00:26:03,759 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 2: I can get behind that one too. 468 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:06,839 Speaker 4: Yeah, very much. 469 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 5: The fifth is due no harm. The sixth is respect boundaries, 470 00:26:14,079 --> 00:26:17,279 the seventh is don't fall victim yourself to true crime, 471 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,960 and the eighth is turn your interest into impact. 472 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 2: No. 473 00:26:22,599 --> 00:26:24,319 Speaker 5: I flew through those, but You guys know that there 474 00:26:24,319 --> 00:26:26,640 are long explanations to each So where do we want 475 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:27,519 to start unpacking? 476 00:26:27,599 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 4: Yes, the main touchstone out of this is the very 477 00:26:32,559 --> 00:26:35,640 very first one, so let's start there. There is no 478 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,440 victim less true crime. So why is it that there 479 00:26:39,519 --> 00:26:42,880 are victims who get written out of their own stories. 480 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,319 We were talking about this with Kathy Kleiner the other 481 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,119 day when she's talking about the fact that Ted Bundy 482 00:26:49,599 --> 00:26:54,559 is of vastly more interest than his victims are, Like, why, 483 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,119 he was a loser. He was not charismatic, he was 484 00:26:58,119 --> 00:26:59,960 not handsome, he was not charming, he was not smart, 485 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,400 all right, and yet here we have so many people 486 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,519 interested in him, and even those types of people who 487 00:27:05,559 --> 00:27:07,799 show up at crime con who are interested in him. 488 00:27:07,839 --> 00:27:11,039 Why aren't we focusing more on the victims? Talk to 489 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:12,759 us a little bit more about the fact that there 490 00:27:12,799 --> 00:27:14,319 really is no victimless true crime. 491 00:27:15,319 --> 00:27:19,559 Speaker 5: We're not watching true crime stories about pyramid schemes. Netflix 492 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,440 and its progeny will release one every so often, but 493 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,000 I don't even think they get higher reviews. 494 00:27:24,039 --> 00:27:24,599 Speaker 4: They're boring. 495 00:27:24,839 --> 00:27:29,039 Speaker 5: Let's be honest. They are the crimes that are intriguing 496 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,680 individuals and have intrigued distance the beginning of time are 497 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:38,000 those with victims of violent crimes almost always and exclusively. 498 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,519 But I think our psyche especially now allows us to 499 00:27:42,559 --> 00:27:45,200 turn that into a story and a form of entertainment. 500 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,759 So you can then take a victim and make them 501 00:27:47,799 --> 00:27:52,599 a character. Yeah, Ted Bundy himself is not Ted Bundy 502 00:27:52,599 --> 00:27:55,559 the person. He is Ted Bundy the character. And that's 503 00:27:55,599 --> 00:27:59,279 what intrigues people. Nobody actually likes Ted Bundy, that knew him. 504 00:28:00,079 --> 00:28:03,079 We've allowed this storyline to arc around and move to 505 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:07,400 where he's sexy and romantic and misunderstood, none of. 506 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 2: Which is true and smart and oh so clever, Yeah. 507 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 5: And handsome and charming, and he was a wonderful stepfather. 508 00:28:15,079 --> 00:28:17,880 Ted Bundy was an amazing human except for that inconvenient 509 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:19,960 fact that none of those things were true, and he 510 00:28:20,079 --> 00:28:23,880 was a killer. But with the amount of media that's 511 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,680 out there, and the stories and the books and everything 512 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,559 that's allowed to encapsulate him, he gets this weird halo 513 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:32,799 glow and we're not looking at him as a person, 514 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,119 and so that's why he become so much more intriguing 515 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,799 for his victims. If we can turn a victim into 516 00:28:38,839 --> 00:28:42,759 a character, they become maybe slightly more interesting, but there's 517 00:28:42,759 --> 00:28:47,200 something very real about victims, and there's something very deep 518 00:28:47,279 --> 00:28:51,079 that they're harder to turn into just characters, and that 519 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,559 starts to feel a little bit less comfortable, and it's 520 00:28:53,559 --> 00:28:56,759 a little bit less fun to hear about. I want 521 00:28:56,799 --> 00:28:58,880 to hear about people in the hospital and what they 522 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,279 had to overcome and talk about their therapy. 523 00:29:02,319 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 2: I also think that some of the crossover between the 524 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:11,400 world of fiction and nonfiction it gets very blended. Keeping 525 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,759 in mind that if, for instance, if you're going to 526 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:18,279 tell a story about a serial killer or a repeat 527 00:29:18,319 --> 00:29:23,599 offender of some sort, the victim is introduced, however briefly, 528 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,359 and then he or she quite often it's she, is, 529 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,680 then something terrible happens to them, and then they're actually 530 00:29:31,799 --> 00:29:37,519 eliminated basically from their own story because there's very little 531 00:29:37,599 --> 00:29:41,920 reference made to them after that. And then in a 532 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,799 typical serial killer type story, whether it's nonfiction or fiction, 533 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,359 then there's another victim introduced, but they almost become like 534 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,119 dominoes or something. They're just being stacked up, knocked over 535 00:29:55,400 --> 00:30:02,640 next next, and there's a diminishment of their humanity because 536 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:07,079 they're just briefly introduced, killed off, and then we're onto 537 00:30:07,119 --> 00:30:11,359 the next victim. You're absolutely right. We've been doing this 538 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,640 for hundreds, if not thousands of years, since all the 539 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,480 way back to the penny press, where people wanted to 540 00:30:17,519 --> 00:30:23,000 read about Jack the Ripper or whomever. The protagonist. The 541 00:30:23,119 --> 00:30:29,119 offender becomes the through line and not hero necessarily, but 542 00:30:29,279 --> 00:30:35,759 they're definitely pushing the story forward. I think what happens 543 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,720 in true crime now is that we're picking up a 544 00:30:39,759 --> 00:30:45,440 lot of those tropes from fictional stories or stories that 545 00:30:45,519 --> 00:30:47,960 have been around for so many hundreds of years that 546 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,880 people forget that Jack the Ripper actually was a real 547 00:30:51,519 --> 00:30:52,759 life serial killer. 548 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,839 Speaker 5: It's interesting. So my favorite actor in the world is 549 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,200 Patrick Page, the very famous Broadway actor, and he's doing 550 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,079 a show right now called All the Devils Are Here. 551 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:05,279 It's soft Broadway. 552 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,039 Speaker 4: Oh I've heard about this, Oh my god. 553 00:31:08,319 --> 00:31:10,799 Speaker 5: So I went to see it in before it opened 554 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:15,400 because I'm obsessed with him. But he talks about Shakespeare's 555 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,759 invention of the villain and what the villain was before 556 00:31:18,839 --> 00:31:26,119 Shakespeare came along was very caricature and dramatic and weird. 557 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:30,319 Where Shakespeare took the villain and villain didn't mean evil. 558 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,519 I can't remember what it meant, but it meant something else, 559 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,359 but he took the villain and made it psychological. And 560 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,960 actually several of Shakespeare's villains are sociopaths, but he talks 561 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,799 about it in That's part of why Shakespeare became so 562 00:31:43,839 --> 00:31:48,400 popular because in his villains we found such complex characters 563 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,839 that we psychologically feel the need to understand. And I 564 00:31:51,839 --> 00:31:55,559 think that's what we see with serial killers that we 565 00:31:55,599 --> 00:31:59,359 are now idolizing, is we view them as these psychologically 566 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:04,200 complex humans and we're trying to understand them. And part 567 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,079 of it's that we think we could never do that, 568 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,759 and part of it's trying to understand what they are doing. 569 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,440 And then part of it's I think a desperate belief 570 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:19,200 that nobody could ever just be that evil without some 571 00:32:19,759 --> 00:32:25,680 underlying tragedy or story or backstory. And so that's why 572 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,839 the killers are so interesting. Meanwhile, victims are everyday people, 573 00:32:30,359 --> 00:32:32,640 and we're not trying to sort them out. 574 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 4: No, exactly. I am curious before we go back into 575 00:32:37,279 --> 00:32:40,400 the rules, I'm really curious, out of the panelists that 576 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,519 you had available to you for this panel at Crime Con, 577 00:32:44,839 --> 00:32:47,480 did you get to choose who your panelists were or 578 00:32:47,519 --> 00:32:50,880 were you told these are your panelists? Please? Work with them. 579 00:32:51,519 --> 00:32:54,519 Speaker 5: Oh, No, Crime con was very lovely. They let me 580 00:32:54,559 --> 00:32:57,319 put together. I asked them if I could have a 581 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,799 one hour topic the topic of my choosing and the 582 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,799 method and madness of my choosing, and they told me 583 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,440 to basically do what I wanted, and so I got 584 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,599 to pick the individuals. Okay, the topic everything. 585 00:33:10,319 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 4: I'm just going to put Bill on the spot here 586 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,519 for a second. Why was Bill a really good choice 587 00:33:14,559 --> 00:33:15,200 for your panel? 588 00:33:16,359 --> 00:33:19,799 Speaker 5: Bill was a very good choice because he both knows 589 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,720 the world professionally and what it takes to get into 590 00:33:22,759 --> 00:33:26,119 it and the pitfalls, but also how it feels on 591 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,279 the other end, and it was very important to me. 592 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,839 And that's also why Brian and Kathy were included. Kathy's 593 00:33:34,079 --> 00:33:37,759 story and her way of telling it is beautiful and amazing, 594 00:33:38,599 --> 00:33:41,000 but it is one sided and it had to be 595 00:33:41,079 --> 00:33:43,519 one sided, right Like it's not her job to know 596 00:33:43,559 --> 00:33:47,000 what the media does. Brian Etton is the same way. 597 00:33:47,559 --> 00:33:49,519 He is going to be one sided and say this 598 00:33:49,559 --> 00:33:51,240 is what I do. So I needed both of them, 599 00:33:51,839 --> 00:33:56,359 and then Bill bridged them both love that and that 600 00:33:56,519 --> 00:33:59,359 was very important because I think when you're doing a 601 00:33:59,359 --> 00:34:01,400 panel like this, if you actually want people to hear 602 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,119 what you're saying. You can't just come at it from 603 00:34:04,119 --> 00:34:07,519 one side, because you give people the opportunity to write 604 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,239 off what you've said if there's any gap. 605 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:13,119 Speaker 4: So if it was just. 606 00:34:13,119 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 5: Victims on that stage with me, the audience could say, 607 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,760 that's fine that victims feel this way, but what are 608 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,000 people supposed to do? Then you have somebody sitting there 609 00:34:22,119 --> 00:34:24,320 that this is what you're supposed to do. And by 610 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,039 the way, we know how to do it because we 611 00:34:26,159 --> 00:34:27,079 do it every day. 612 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,159 Speaker 2: On a personal note, I'd just like to say, I'm 613 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,039 really disappointed that I wasn't brought in because I'm the 614 00:34:35,039 --> 00:34:40,039 personification of evil, which is really my goal. 615 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 5: You have the voice for it. 616 00:34:44,039 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 4: Oh, I love that. 617 00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 2: Yes, Halloween is coming up within days at the time 618 00:34:50,039 --> 00:34:52,679 of this taping, and a number of times. 619 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 4: That he gets people are like, oh, your voice is 620 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,760 like silk, it's like satin, it's like olive oil's. But 621 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,719 I've never heard someone say his voice is voice of evil. 622 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:05,039 And I love it. I love it every single I'm 623 00:35:05,079 --> 00:35:07,559 going to use that every single time someone talks about 624 00:35:07,559 --> 00:35:10,400 how smooth and cherman and lovely his voice is made 625 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,719 for radio. I'm going to come back with yes, but 626 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,519 he also sounds like the personification of evil. I love it. 627 00:35:17,559 --> 00:35:21,519 Speaker 2: Look, we all have goals and aspirations, and until I 628 00:35:21,559 --> 00:35:25,039 get that booking as the personification of evil, my work 629 00:35:25,119 --> 00:35:26,280 here will not be done. 630 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:30,679 Speaker 4: You got to play what you got to play an 631 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,760 evil else in Santa Maybe right, you're getting it on. 632 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:39,599 Speaker 2: One of our friends, Jason Usfree, asked me to play 633 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:45,000 part in his wonderful Christmas production of Santa Maybe, And 634 00:35:45,079 --> 00:35:47,000 originally I was going to be an elf, which I 635 00:35:47,119 --> 00:35:49,679 was real happy to be an elf, and so I 636 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,960 was working on my whole thing and then he said, oh, 637 00:35:53,039 --> 00:35:55,559 We've got this guy who's like a real sort of 638 00:35:56,159 --> 00:35:58,800 Hollywood sleees kind of guy. And I said, oh, I 639 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,360 can do that. 640 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 5: That's me. 641 00:36:02,119 --> 00:36:02,800 Speaker 2: I can do that. 642 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,559 Speaker 5: My horse's name is Vincent Price that I've been looking 643 00:36:06,599 --> 00:36:08,320 for a voiceover for him. 644 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 4: Oh. 645 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:10,760 Speaker 2: I love Vincent like whenever I. 646 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:12,519 Speaker 5: Want to post him on Instagram because I feel like 647 00:36:12,519 --> 00:36:14,440 he has a voice and he's just waiting to use it. 648 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,000 So I can offer you that role. 649 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,800 Speaker 4: There we go. I love that. No, and I love 650 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:22,800 the fact I think you did choose the best set 651 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:27,639 of panelists possible for your eight Rules panelist. And I 652 00:36:27,679 --> 00:36:30,159 know I'm a little biased because he's my partner and 653 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,800 all that, but I really think you made some excellent 654 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,000 choices there, and it was it was a hit. It 655 00:36:35,039 --> 00:36:37,800 was a really excellent panel, and I honestly think that 656 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,840 more people could have benefited from seeing and hearing it 657 00:36:41,119 --> 00:36:42,320 like a larger stage. 658 00:36:43,039 --> 00:36:46,280 Speaker 5: The great news is it's still available, and actually NCBC 659 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,840 has posted it on our website The Wire. 660 00:36:49,039 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 2: Oh, I didn't know that, Thank you. That's wonderful. 661 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 5: We got permission from crime Con to use it, so 662 00:36:55,039 --> 00:36:57,000 we have the video and the video is up. So 663 00:36:57,159 --> 00:37:00,639 if any of your listeners would like to watch Bill 664 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:02,400 in live, not live. 665 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,760 Speaker 2: But on a video, you want to hear from Kathy 666 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,199 Kleiner Rubin and Brian Anon too. They're both amazing and 667 00:37:09,679 --> 00:37:13,480 each of them brings their own incredible background to the table. 668 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,119 Speaker 4: So after your time at crime Con, did you have 669 00:37:18,199 --> 00:37:22,320 any feedback from participants or discussion with people there that 670 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,000 really struck a chord with you, Renee, or anything that 671 00:37:25,039 --> 00:37:27,639 you took away that you're still mulling over even all 672 00:37:27,679 --> 00:37:29,000 this many weeks later. 673 00:37:30,039 --> 00:37:32,559 Speaker 5: I know a lot of individuals said that it really 674 00:37:32,679 --> 00:37:37,440 changed the way they viewed true crime. We had I 675 00:37:37,599 --> 00:37:40,639 was approached in the hallway and asked because one of 676 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,119 the topics that we discussed and went on a little 677 00:37:44,119 --> 00:37:48,000 bit of a bandwagon about was the sharing on social 678 00:37:48,039 --> 00:37:51,599 media and don't share? Why are you sharing? Think before 679 00:37:51,679 --> 00:37:53,920 you comment, think before you post. And somebody approached me 680 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,239 and actually asked, aren't we being helpful if we share? 681 00:37:58,159 --> 00:38:00,199 And I had to walk her through the ways that 682 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,840 sharing was not always helpful. But I think to some 683 00:38:04,039 --> 00:38:08,239 extent it just affirmed that people are doing this to 684 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:12,280 be helpful. Just because they're not helpful in the way 685 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,719 that we want them to be helpful. That can't take 686 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,639 away their intention. It just maybe needs to be redirected. 687 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,280 I will tell you I have been contacted by a 688 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:29,559 victim whose story was told Her mother was killed, and 689 00:38:29,599 --> 00:38:33,960 her story was told on Oxygen, and she was not contacted, 690 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,599 had no idea what was going out. A friend of 691 00:38:36,639 --> 00:38:39,960 the family saw the previews and saw some pretty gruesome photos, 692 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,920 so she contacted me for help. And it's I think 693 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,360 this bleeds into the there's no timeline for trauma. I 694 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,000 think it had happened in the nineteen eighties, so the 695 00:38:51,039 --> 00:38:53,920 producers thought it was not a big deal, and for 696 00:38:54,039 --> 00:38:57,880 her it was very traumatic, and I think hearing from 697 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:01,760 her after we did this was further affirmation, because when 698 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,000 you put things like this out, you're not sure if 699 00:39:04,119 --> 00:39:07,000 you're exactly right on. You do all of the work 700 00:39:07,039 --> 00:39:09,119 you can, as far as round tables, but you're not 701 00:39:09,119 --> 00:39:12,800 sure you've encompassed everything. Or in my mind, sometimes I 702 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,880 think I'm being overly dramatic about something and I'm too 703 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,320 focused on one thing and not focused enough. So I 704 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:23,199 think her reaching out really just confirmed the prevalence of 705 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,000 we've got to protect these individuals, because I will tell 706 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,239 you she had nowhere to turn. I frankly did not 707 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,239 know that I'd be able to help her at all. 708 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,400 I got lucky on helping her, but when she first 709 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,599 emailed me, I thought, she, I don't know what to do. 710 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:38,480 I don't know how to help you. And if I 711 00:39:38,519 --> 00:39:40,920 don't know how to help you, we're in a world 712 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,039 of trouble because that means there's no one who can, 713 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:47,119 but you clearly need the help. Her reaching out affirmed 714 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,039 a lot of this and also made me realize there's 715 00:39:50,079 --> 00:39:51,960 a lot more work to be done, because if I'm 716 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,079 going to put myself on a stage and put out 717 00:39:54,079 --> 00:39:57,679 a video instad on podcasts about the wonderful work we're doing. 718 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,000 I better be able to help somebody in that position 719 00:40:00,079 --> 00:40:03,480 in two and her email sent me for a loop. 720 00:40:04,599 --> 00:40:07,239 Speaker 4: What words do you have for anyone who has been 721 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,320 a victim of crime and who needs support and if 722 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:12,159 they don't know where to go? We're not going to 723 00:40:12,199 --> 00:40:15,360 say everybody should just email Renee because you are very busy. 724 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:17,920 What would you say to anybody who just I don't 725 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:19,320 know where to go, but I know that I need 726 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:20,760 some help? Where would you point them? 727 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,960 Speaker 5: I would honestly start by calling our Victim Services Hotline. Okay, 728 00:40:25,599 --> 00:40:30,400 there are so many different paths for victims, so there 729 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,159 are places where you cannot get a victim advocate unless 730 00:40:33,159 --> 00:40:36,000 you're cooperating with law enforcement, and maybe you don't want 731 00:40:36,039 --> 00:40:38,960 to cooperate with law enforcement for a multitude of reasons. 732 00:40:39,679 --> 00:40:41,639 There are a lot of victims that rely on their 733 00:40:41,679 --> 00:40:44,840 friends and family, which is wonderful for emotional support, but 734 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:49,039 does not provide a level of expertise or enclosure that 735 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:54,719 some individuals needs. Start with our Victim Services Hotline, but 736 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,239 also know that there's not one right path and that 737 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,719 a lot of people have a lot of differentions about 738 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,239 what you should and shouldn't do, and none of those 739 00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:04,760 are right if they're not right for you. 740 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the things I've learned over time, even 741 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,119 with the Eight Families and the Colonial Park murders and 742 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:16,360 talking to victims and survivors of other crimes, is that 743 00:41:16,559 --> 00:41:21,920 everyone's different and the impact of these terrible events will 744 00:41:22,119 --> 00:41:25,800 be different and may even be different over time. Our 745 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,079 case stretches back thirty seven years now, so we're seeing 746 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:34,559 even generationally things shift in terms of the impact of 747 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,559 this series of violent crime. One of the things I 748 00:41:37,599 --> 00:41:41,639 say to Kristen is your mileage may vary, It may 749 00:41:41,679 --> 00:41:43,280 sound a little flip, but what I mean is that 750 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,719 everyone is going to deal with this trauma in their 751 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,480 own way, and even over the course of their lives. 752 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:52,559 This will stay with them forever. It isn't the situation 753 00:41:53,079 --> 00:41:58,239 is resolved, a suspect has identified, tried, convicted, and everything 754 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,079 in your life just goes on perfectly because nothing's ever 755 00:42:02,119 --> 00:42:05,599 going to change what's happened, and. 756 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:13,519 Speaker 5: Our justice system is woefully unable to help victims all 757 00:42:13,599 --> 00:42:18,880 of the time. Sometimes you have to accept that resolution, 758 00:42:19,159 --> 00:42:21,519 enclosure is not going to come through the justice system, 759 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,519 just not. You have to find another form of justice 760 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:28,960 or find some closure that is going to work for you. 761 00:42:30,199 --> 00:42:33,119 We see that a lot in frankly, victims of child 762 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,599 sex abuse. They know who did it. It was in 763 00:42:36,639 --> 00:42:39,880 the nineteen eighties, it was a family member, and they 764 00:42:40,159 --> 00:42:43,239 come to us with paperwork and their hat in their hands, 765 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,280 begging for help. And the answer is just this isn't 766 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,880 something that the justice system can address. With a lot 767 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,639 of victims Kate with domestic violence, with multiple victims cases, 768 00:42:54,119 --> 00:42:57,280 it's just something that the justice system is not set 769 00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:00,800 up to address. Through nobody's fault. You have to have 770 00:43:01,079 --> 00:43:04,119 multiple pathways if you want closure, because it's not always 771 00:43:04,119 --> 00:43:05,360 going to come from one path. 772 00:43:06,159 --> 00:43:09,239 Speaker 2: And almost everyone I know that's been through this, whether 773 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:13,199 they have had suspects identified or not, whether they've been 774 00:43:13,199 --> 00:43:16,599 through a trial or not. Everyone I've met so far, 775 00:43:16,679 --> 00:43:20,559 which is probably in the hundreds now, every single person 776 00:43:20,599 --> 00:43:24,920 I've talked to, makes some sort of analogy about the 777 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:26,840 fact that they feel like they've been through a meat 778 00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:31,480 grinder and there's a process, but at the end of it, 779 00:43:31,599 --> 00:43:36,159 something awful us gets spat out at the other end. 780 00:43:37,039 --> 00:43:43,559 No one I've met yet has expressed anything more than 781 00:43:43,599 --> 00:43:49,639 a smidgeon of satisfaction. Or feeling like whatever we call 782 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:54,519 this thing, that they somehow achieved justice. That's twice now 783 00:43:54,559 --> 00:43:56,440 I've used that word, which is a word I'm not 784 00:43:56,639 --> 00:44:01,639 crazy about, because I'm not seeing any and even the 785 00:44:01,639 --> 00:44:05,519 people I know whose cases have been adjudicated and seen 786 00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,800 all the way through, no one has ever said to 787 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:14,119 me yet I felt like I achieved some level of 788 00:44:14,199 --> 00:44:19,039 satisfaction or dare I say justice again? It just doesn't 789 00:44:19,039 --> 00:44:20,320 seem to be part of the process. 790 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,079 Speaker 5: And there are times when the justice system can make 791 00:44:24,199 --> 00:44:29,039 things worse when you are parading out every intimate detail 792 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:33,320 in public in a courtroom, whether it's about a family 793 00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,400 member who has died, or if you're a victim of 794 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,000 a violent crime and the defense has the right to 795 00:44:39,039 --> 00:44:41,800 ask you the wise and they can get ugly. 796 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,920 Speaker 4: What would you like to see change in the true 797 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,880 crime space in the next couple of years to help 798 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,679 us reach a point where we are more friendly and 799 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:56,519 aware of victims and what we need to be doing 800 00:44:56,559 --> 00:44:57,159 to help them. 801 00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,320 Speaker 5: I think we start with consumers who care, who are 802 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:07,320 holding the content creators accountable. And I think that consumers 803 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,920 in the true crime field don't realize how powerful they are, 804 00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:13,480 and they think that just one view on the Netflix 805 00:45:13,599 --> 00:45:17,079 or one listen to a bad podcast doesn't really mean anything. 806 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,159 It does, and if people start reaching out and saying, 807 00:45:20,599 --> 00:45:22,840 I don't want to hear this unless you're doing this, 808 00:45:23,199 --> 00:45:25,320 things will start to change. But again, it's getting the 809 00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,599 awareness out there. At crime Con, I will tell you 810 00:45:28,639 --> 00:45:31,960 I did talk to one podcast team who literally told 811 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,639 me they did not care about having the victim's voice. 812 00:45:35,039 --> 00:45:38,800 They're just doing it for fun. I'm not gonna say, Wow, 813 00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,199 we're just here to have a good time. We don't 814 00:45:41,199 --> 00:45:43,559 want to get into that. And I said to them, 815 00:45:44,119 --> 00:45:47,119 you literally just told me you don't care about having 816 00:45:47,159 --> 00:45:51,039 the victim's voice or discussing anything with accuracy. No, we don't. 817 00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,800 We're just here to have fun. It's just fun. We're 818 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:56,239 just trying to have fun with it. We're not trying 819 00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:57,599 to get into the serious part of it. And I 820 00:45:57,639 --> 00:46:01,199 was like, you're doing a podcast about murder. You're getting 821 00:46:01,199 --> 00:46:05,480 into the serious part of it. So I would love 822 00:46:05,519 --> 00:46:07,880 to see folks like that run out of town. And 823 00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:11,199 I do think that consumers have the ability to do it. 824 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,599 And I think that's where we start with people viewing 825 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,599 every single thing they watch that's in this space, not 826 00:46:19,079 --> 00:46:22,960 as a story that they're being told, but as something 827 00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:27,800 that actually happened, and the victims as individuals who need 828 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:31,280 some sort of help or that something awful happen to them, 829 00:46:31,599 --> 00:46:33,039 but viewing them as real people. 830 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:35,880 Speaker 4: Can think of a better note to end on than 831 00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,920 that one. Reneve Welliams, thank you so very much for 832 00:46:39,039 --> 00:46:40,920 joining us today. We really appreciate it. 833 00:46:41,519 --> 00:46:42,559 Speaker 5: Thank you for having me. 834 00:46:43,639 --> 00:46:45,280 Speaker 4: That's going to do it for this episode of mind 835 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:48,840 Ever Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see 836 00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:49,400 you next time. 837 00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:02,440 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 838 00:47:02,559 --> 00:47:03,960 Another Dog Productions. 839 00:47:04,559 --> 00:47:07,880 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 840 00:47:08,199 --> 00:47:10,760 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 841 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:13,320 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 842 00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:17,920 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 843 00:47:18,559 --> 00:47:21,719 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 844 00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:24,519 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 845 00:47:24,599 --> 00:47:26,400 Murders on Facebook. 846 00:47:26,199 --> 00:47:29,199 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 847 00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:30,880 Bill Thomas five six. 848 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,440 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.