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NOPERD is necessary if 44 00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:05.959 we were privateed by loss he Terms and conditions eighteen plus. 45 00:02:15.520 --> 00:02:18.919 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 46 00:02:19.039 --> 00:02:22.039 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 47 00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:29.400 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 48 00:02:29.479 --> 00:02:33.120 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 49 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:37.400 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 50 00:02:37.479 --> 00:02:50.840 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening. 51 00:02:52.039 --> 00:02:56.000 The heinous bloodlust of doctor H. H. Holmes is notorious, 52 00:02:56.759 --> 00:03:00.520 but only Harold Checkters. Depraved tells the complet least story 53 00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:03.159 of the killer whose evil acts of torture and murder 54 00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:08.120 flourished within miles of the Chicago World's Fair. Destined to 55 00:03:08.159 --> 00:03:11.960 be a true crime classic, this authoritative account chronicles the 56 00:03:12.039 --> 00:03:15.759 methods and madness of a monster who slipped easily into 57 00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:19.759 an a bright, affluent Midwestern suburb where no one suspected. 58 00:03:19.800 --> 00:03:24.840 The dapper, charming Homes alternately posed as doctor, druggist and 59 00:03:24.960 --> 00:03:28.080 inventor to snare his prey, was the architect of a 60 00:03:28.199 --> 00:03:33.120 labyrinth castle of horrors. Holmes admitted to twenty seven murders 61 00:03:33.159 --> 00:03:38.439 by the time his madhouse of trapdoors asphyxiation devices, body shoots, 62 00:03:38.479 --> 00:03:42.960 and acid vats was exposed. The seminal profile of a 63 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:47.199 homegrown madman in the era of Jack the Ripper. Depraved 64 00:03:47.240 --> 00:03:52.240 as also a mesmerizing true detection tale of two detection 65 00:03:52.439 --> 00:03:56.439 long before the age of technological wizardry. The book they 66 00:03:56.439 --> 00:04:00.759 were featuring this evening is Depraved, the definitive of true 67 00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:04.800 story of H. H. Solmes, whose grotesque crime shattered turn 68 00:04:04.879 --> 00:04:08.000 of the century, Chicago, with my special guest, journalist and 69 00:04:08.080 --> 00:04:15.439 author and professor Harold Scheckter. We have a problem with 70 00:04:16.079 --> 00:04:21.319 I emailed Harold earlier today. We'll give Harold a few 71 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:28.759 minutes to connect. There is Hello, good evening, Harold, welcome 72 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:29.399 to the program. 73 00:04:29.720 --> 00:04:33.439 Thank you, thank you, thank you very much. Yeah, thank 74 00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:35.759 you for that introduction. That was a great introduction. 75 00:04:37.040 --> 00:04:40.360 Thank you very much. Welcome back to the program. And 76 00:04:41.319 --> 00:04:45.040 again I have to say that True Murder was designed 77 00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:51.879 to feature books like this, Harold. This is fantastic book 78 00:04:52.360 --> 00:04:57.720 about a fantastic and diabolical killer at a time that 79 00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:01.319 a story that many people still don't know. And I 80 00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:05.439 applaud you for this book. It's just fantastic. Of course 81 00:05:05.480 --> 00:05:08.079 I read it before I read it again. I will 82 00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:10.720 read it again. It's fantastic. It's not to be a 83 00:05:10.839 --> 00:05:13.240 true crime classic. It is a true crime classic. 84 00:05:13.879 --> 00:05:14.839 Well, I appreciate it. 85 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:26.040 Let's talk about when you wrote Depraved. Okay, Well, I 86 00:05:26.279 --> 00:05:27.879 wrote give us the Conditions. 87 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:33.879 At that time, well, you know, I had a as 88 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:40.879 you mentioned in your introduction, I have been a professor 89 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:46.480 of American literature at Queen's College in New York. Queen's 90 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:49.600 College is one of the senior colleges of the City 91 00:05:49.720 --> 00:05:54.160 University of New York, and I've been a professor there 92 00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:57.879 for quite some time. Actually, I'm sort of now looking 93 00:05:57.879 --> 00:06:03.519 at retirement. But somewhere along the line, I began writing 94 00:06:03.879 --> 00:06:07.920 true crime books, the first of which was a book 95 00:06:07.959 --> 00:06:14.920 called Deviant about Edward Geen, the inspiration for Norman Bates 96 00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:19.920 and Psycho and Leatherface and Texas Chainsaw Massacre, and Buffalo 97 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:24.360 Bill in Silence of the Lambs. And then I followed 98 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:28.680 that up with a book about Albert Fish, very heinous 99 00:06:30.040 --> 00:06:35.199 cannibal pedophile of the nineteen twenties and thirties. So and 100 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:40.399 you know, at the time, actually thought of myself as 101 00:06:41.399 --> 00:06:47.680 somewhat immodestly having invented a new genre of literature because 102 00:06:48.399 --> 00:06:50.879 I thought of it less as true crime than true horror, 103 00:06:52.199 --> 00:06:57.360 because I was interested really in writing about American criminals 104 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:03.560 who had, in their own time almost achieved the status 105 00:07:03.639 --> 00:07:09.319 of these mythological monsters. You know, their crimes were so extraordinary. 106 00:07:10.079 --> 00:07:17.079 So I can't quite entirely remember what led. 107 00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:17.879 Me to H. H. 108 00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:23.399 Holmes, although it might well have been a correspondence that 109 00:07:23.560 --> 00:07:27.879 I started when I was writing Deviant with Robert Block. 110 00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:32.920 Robert Block was, of course the author of the novel Psycho, 111 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:37.360 and while I was writing Deviant, I was in touch 112 00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:41.600 with him, and I asked him at one point why 113 00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:46.000 he thought people were so fascinated by ed Geen, and 114 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:49.319 he replied that it was because they had forgotten about 115 00:07:49.399 --> 00:07:52.560 Albert Fish that had led me to my second book. 116 00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:56.639 But you know, in studying Block's own work, I came 117 00:07:56.680 --> 00:08:00.240 across a novel he had done called American Gothic, and 118 00:08:00.399 --> 00:08:04.079 American Gothic is based on the story of HH. Holmes, 119 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:07.680 so you know that led me to look into the 120 00:08:07.759 --> 00:08:11.360 Homes case. At that time there was one other book 121 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:15.279 on Holmes. Well, I have to amend that there was 122 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:20.240 another nonfiction true crime book about Homes called The Torture Doctor, 123 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:26.480 which was basically assembled out of a bunch of newspaper 124 00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:31.720 clippings and so on. Anyway, So I think that's pretty 125 00:08:31.800 --> 00:08:36.000 much that combination of things, the Robert Block connection, my 126 00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:42.559 interest in writing about again these larger than life American monsters, 127 00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:46.639 you know, all of that, all of that came together, 128 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:50.879 and in my own teaching, you know, I am a 129 00:08:51.720 --> 00:08:58.279 have been a professor of nineteenth century American literature Hawthorn, Melville, Poe, 130 00:08:58.360 --> 00:09:01.320 and so on, So you know, I've always been interested 131 00:09:01.399 --> 00:09:06.279 in nineteenth century Gothic. So you know, all these things 132 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:08.639 kind of came together and led me to the homes case. 133 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:16.559 Yes, fantastic. Now, you opened this book with talking about 134 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:20.200 what they called the greatest calamity of the age, which 135 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:25.000 was the Great Chicago Fire destroyed Million Dollar Courthouse, among 136 00:09:25.159 --> 00:09:27.399 other things, where Lincoln was held in state. 137 00:09:27.480 --> 00:09:30.559 You say, well, destroyed. 138 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:36.879 Yeah, tell us about the Chicago fire and who was 139 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:41.240 also observant at eleven years old about this fire and 140 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:43.240 the destruction that ensues. 141 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:47.360 Yeah, Well, I mean, the you know, the Chicago fire, 142 00:09:47.679 --> 00:09:52.360 you know, was this huge catastropheme in Chicago at that time, 143 00:09:52.600 --> 00:09:56.399 you know, Chicago had built up very very quickly, really, 144 00:09:56.799 --> 00:09:58.960 you know, it had just begun as a few shacks 145 00:09:59.559 --> 00:10:04.559 on the ors of you know, of Lake Erie, but 146 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:11.879 you know it it grew into this metropolis very very quickly. 147 00:10:11.919 --> 00:10:17.000 But it was basically all constructed of wood and in 148 00:10:17.320 --> 00:10:20.879 eighteen I can't remember the precise year, eighteen seventy one maybe, 149 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:28.879 but you know, this conflagration started. You know. The myth 150 00:10:29.039 --> 00:10:33.080 is at a cow owned by this woman named Missus O'Leary, 151 00:10:33.639 --> 00:10:37.279 you know, kicked over some lantern. Nobody exactly knows how 152 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:40.639 it started, but you know, in a very short time 153 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:45.639 basically the entire city was reduced to ashes and it 154 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:48.559 rebuilt itself very very quickly. But you know, but but 155 00:10:49.360 --> 00:10:53.440 you know, the news spread all over the country, really internationally, 156 00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:56.320 and I begin my book with a description of the 157 00:10:56.399 --> 00:11:00.000 fire and the news making its way to this little 158 00:11:01.240 --> 00:11:05.200 town of Gilmanton, New Hampshire, where H. H. Holmes, who 159 00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:10.320 was born Herman Mudget, you know, read about it like 160 00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:18.440 everybody else. You know. One problem with writing about serial 161 00:11:18.679 --> 00:11:23.240 killers of the distant past going back to the nineteenth 162 00:11:23.240 --> 00:11:29.720 century is not a lot of reliable documentary information about 163 00:11:29.720 --> 00:11:34.120 their childhood, because of course there's nothing special particularly about 164 00:11:34.120 --> 00:11:36.320 their child. You know, people only became interested in their 165 00:11:36.360 --> 00:11:42.559 childhood after they became notorious. So you know, Holmes himself 166 00:11:42.639 --> 00:11:47.240 wrote an autobiography, and you know, different people have poked 167 00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:51.360 into his background. But you know, it's certainly very very 168 00:11:51.799 --> 00:11:56.559 typical of serial murderers that they, you know, have a 169 00:11:56.639 --> 00:12:04.440 certain pyromaniacal streak to them. So you know, it wouldn't 170 00:12:04.440 --> 00:12:09.279 be surprising if you know, Homes was particularly titillated, you know, 171 00:12:09.399 --> 00:12:10.559 by stories of the fire. 172 00:12:12.799 --> 00:12:17.080 Certainly, now you also talk about not a lot of information, 173 00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:20.279 but you talk about some important information. It certainly points 174 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:23.039 us in the right direction of where some of his influence, 175 00:12:23.159 --> 00:12:25.519 of some of the influence came from. And you talk 176 00:12:25.559 --> 00:12:31.399 about bullying at school, and you talk about his delicate stature, 177 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:34.960 you say was you know, and you talk about the 178 00:12:35.360 --> 00:12:38.960 real traumatic event that seemed to shape him quite a 179 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:42.159 bit was the preserve heads and amputated limbs with these 180 00:12:42.200 --> 00:12:45.279 bullies that were getting him. So I'll let you explain 181 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:49.279 what you did find in the regular brutalization by his 182 00:12:49.399 --> 00:12:52.600 father and his mother, So bullying at home, bullying at school, 183 00:12:52.840 --> 00:12:56.559 and tell us about this very traumatic thing event with 184 00:12:56.720 --> 00:12:58.039 the skeletons and the limbs. 185 00:12:59.039 --> 00:13:05.080 Well, you know, again, according to his own account, one 186 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:12.360 of the formative traumatic experiences of his boyhood occurred when 187 00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:19.919 uh that there was the town doctor had a mounted 188 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:26.080 skeleton in his office and which homes you know, is 189 00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:31.919 very very terrified of, and supposedly, you know, some school bullies, 190 00:13:32.039 --> 00:13:35.679 having found this out, you know, forced him one day 191 00:13:35.879 --> 00:13:38.320 when the doctor was out of the office but the 192 00:13:38.399 --> 00:13:42.159 door was open, Uh, you know, forced him in, uh 193 00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:45.799 and kind of locked him in the little cabinet with 194 00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:53.639 a skeleton. You know. Again, you know, it's hard to 195 00:13:53.799 --> 00:13:59.399 substantiate many of these stories. To some extent, one has 196 00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:04.840 to extrapolate a little bit from what one knows, you know, 197 00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:12.440 about the various influences that shape the psychology of criminals 198 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:16.039 like Holmes. But you know, that was certainly, you know, 199 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:19.559 a story that seemed to ring with a certain amount 200 00:14:19.600 --> 00:14:25.960 of authenticity, uh, and one that Holmes himself placed a 201 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:28.799 lot of weight on, you know, when he was again 202 00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:32.759 recalling the you know, the sources of his own evil. 203 00:14:34.840 --> 00:14:37.720 Very similar to Jeffrey Dahmer, I find too. He also 204 00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:42.480 had this early fascination with understanding the anatomy of animals 205 00:14:42.519 --> 00:14:44.720 and doing experiments, you. 206 00:14:44.720 --> 00:14:47.720 Know, that's a good point. Yeah, well, you know that's 207 00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:50.559 a good point. I mean, you know, there is obviously 208 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:56.919 a necrophiliac quality to a lot of these kinds of 209 00:14:57.039 --> 00:15:00.240 serial killers. You know, they really are in life with 210 00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:05.240 death and with dead things. You know, there's some there's 211 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:13.639 some very very obviously profoundly aberrant, uh you know, urged, 212 00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:19.679 you know too, you know, to be in proximity with 213 00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:24.639 dead bodies and death. So you know, I think that 214 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:28.519 that was certainly, you know, the case with Holmes. I mean, 215 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:33.879 he wasn't literally a necrophile in the way Dahmer was. 216 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:38.799 But again they're they're certainly as you're suggesting, you know, 217 00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:42.120 a necrophiliac, a necrophilia quality there. 218 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:50.000 Now, early on we see the again the deviant and 219 00:15:50.360 --> 00:15:54.240 criminal mind of of H. H. Holmes. And and he's 220 00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:56.720 an intelligent guy. As you write in the book, he 221 00:15:57.000 --> 00:16:01.759 becomes his intellect is noted. He becomes what people consider 222 00:16:01.879 --> 00:16:06.600 a sort of an upstanding person. He's charming, he has 223 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:10.159 that those abilities. He's a good talker, he's he's smart guy. 224 00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:14.360 And you talk about this his first I guess scam 225 00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:18.200 that sets forth the kind of blueprint for what he's 226 00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:21.840 gonna do. Later is this doctor E. S. Holton in 227 00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:24.039 his drug store? So tell us what he does in 228 00:16:24.200 --> 00:16:29.480 Englewood and what does he do to get his first 229 00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:33.919 foray into gues medicine and and also a business. 230 00:16:35.720 --> 00:16:38.080 Well, I mean, Holmes, you know, was a physician, he 231 00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:42.039 went to medical school, he had worked as a doctor, 232 00:16:42.159 --> 00:16:48.559 worked as a pharmacist in Philadelphia for example. Just to 233 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:51.440 backtrack for a minute in terms of what you started 234 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:54.120 to say, you know again, Holmes is you know, very 235 00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:58.399 classic case. You know, you know of a psychopathic killer 236 00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:05.000 who is able to project this very very convincing and 237 00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:12.079 you know, even charismatic persona, and underneath it, you know, 238 00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:16.559 of course it was this you know, kind of hollow man, 239 00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:22.880 you know, a person lacking any capacity for empathy, lacking 240 00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:27.880 any conscience, you know, somebody who just really perceived other 241 00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:33.160 people is objects that could be manipulated and exploited, you know, 242 00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:39.640 for his own desires and perverse pleasures. So so yeah, 243 00:17:39.680 --> 00:17:42.640 he got you know again in that respect, you know, 244 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:45.759 he's very much like someone like Ted Bundy for example. 245 00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:50.079 You know, not every serial, you know, I think Silence 246 00:17:50.119 --> 00:17:54.839 of the Lambs in particular has led to this. Well, 247 00:17:55.160 --> 00:17:58.880 many Hollywood films you know, conception of serial killers as 248 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:01.920 being these mass her minds, which is not true of 249 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:05.440 most serial killers. But you know, they, you know, many 250 00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:08.279 of them are very very obviously cunning and clever, you know, 251 00:18:08.359 --> 00:18:13.599 and some are very very smart. Bundy is one example 252 00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:17.720 of that, and and HH Holmes was another. But yeah, 253 00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:25.680 he arrived in Chicago, and he made his way to 254 00:18:25.799 --> 00:18:31.079 what was then a suburb of Chicago called Englewood, and 255 00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:37.599 I guess was scouting out the neighborhood with various nefarious 256 00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:42.119 plans in mind, and happened upon this drug store that 257 00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:47.839 was at that time run by a recently widowed woman 258 00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:53.720 named Halton, and Holmes introduced himself and was hired on 259 00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:58.319 by her as a much needed assistant. And after a 260 00:18:58.440 --> 00:19:04.000 while he persuaded missus Halton to sell him the store, 261 00:19:05.960 --> 00:19:09.720 and she agreed to do that with a proviso that 262 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:15.440 she could stay and live in the Abovestairs apartment she 263 00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:19.559 had shared with her recently deceased husband, which Holmes agreed to. 264 00:19:19.640 --> 00:19:24.319 And then shortly thereafter, she disappeared mysteriously and was never 265 00:19:24.440 --> 00:19:29.559 seen again. And Holmes just you know, told people in 266 00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:32.200 neighborhood who inquired after her that she had gone off 267 00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:35.799 to live with relatives in California, even though she was 268 00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:39.440 not known to have any relatives in California. So yeah, 269 00:19:39.480 --> 00:19:41.640 that's how Holmes got a foothold in Englewood. 270 00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:49.839 Now how does he he meets this Mrta Beltnapple? Why? 271 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:54.599 Mary's so she doesn't know his background? But tell us 272 00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:55.960 about this union? 273 00:19:57.279 --> 00:20:01.440 Well, I mean, yeah, Holmes met man, married Murda. They 274 00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:04.559 had a daughter together. What he didn't tell her was 275 00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:09.440 he was already married to a woman named Clara back 276 00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:12.640 in Gilmington, New Hampshire. So it was a big a mismarriage. 277 00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:16.039 Holmes had never bothered with a nicety of a divorce. 278 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:21.240 And one of the things I point out, you know, 279 00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:25.200 in in my book is, you know, homes seems to 280 00:20:25.640 --> 00:20:32.759 have harbored some actual human emotions for Mrta since she 281 00:20:32.920 --> 00:20:35.039 was one of the you know, few women he was 282 00:20:35.079 --> 00:20:38.000 ever involved with that he didn't end up killing, but 283 00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:43.480 she did become somewhat of an impediment to him in 284 00:20:43.799 --> 00:20:48.759 in the in Englewood, in the pharmacy. Uh. And so he, 285 00:20:50.119 --> 00:20:52.279 you know, he got her to move in with her 286 00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:55.319 parents at some distance, you know, and he would visit 287 00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:57.960 her on a regular basis. But he kind of wanted, 288 00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:00.160 but he did want her out of the way so 289 00:21:00.359 --> 00:21:05.160 he could pursue well, among other things, other women and 290 00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:09.279 also put some of his other plans into action. 291 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:14.799 Now you talk about his charm and this flirtatious nature, 292 00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:17.720 and of course he's not only looking for women, but 293 00:21:17.799 --> 00:21:20.359 he's looking for what women can do for him literally. 294 00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:26.240 But he does set in another plan. It's just it's diabolical, 295 00:21:26.359 --> 00:21:30.200 but very and very cunning in business where he leases 296 00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:33.160 some land across from this drug store. So tell us 297 00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:38.440 this fairly ingenious ruse here what he does to this 298 00:21:38.599 --> 00:21:41.519 person through this sale of the pharmacy and then him 299 00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:43.079 opening another one. So tell us about this. 300 00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:47.680 Well, I mean that's getting a little ahead of the 301 00:21:47.720 --> 00:21:52.319 story because that's you know, after the construction of the building. 302 00:21:52.839 --> 00:21:55.599 But yeah, I mean he did you know, Holmes managed 303 00:21:55.680 --> 00:22:00.880 to unload his the halt In Pharmacy. Should I then 304 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:05.480 become the hh Holmes Pharmacy on some poor unsuspecting sucker, 305 00:22:06.519 --> 00:22:09.440 you know, a young pharmacist who is looking for his 306 00:22:09.559 --> 00:22:11.920 own store, and you know, Holmes by then had this 307 00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:16.519 thriving clientele. You know, Holmes told him he was moving 308 00:22:16.559 --> 00:22:19.319 away and you know, would sell him the store, and 309 00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:22.200 he'd have this great business. And then Holmes, you know, 310 00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:27.039 immediately went and opened a far bigger and more luxurious 311 00:22:27.160 --> 00:22:31.519 pharmacy right across the street and basically drove this other 312 00:22:31.640 --> 00:22:35.680 guy into poverty. But you know, very typical of Holmes's behavior, 313 00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:37.920 you know, I mean, Holmes, as I said, you know, 314 00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:41.680 like all of his breed completely lacked anything remotely approaching 315 00:22:42.279 --> 00:22:44.519 a conscious or any ethical sense. 316 00:22:46.279 --> 00:22:52.400 So yeah, you right that At around the same time 317 00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:57.480 in eighteen eighty eight, Jack the Ripper appears in England. 318 00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:01.440 You include this obviously because this is just the historical 319 00:23:01.960 --> 00:23:04.880 context and the background. It's important to the story. But 320 00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:12.680 what do you think JH. Holmes was thinking about the 321 00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:16.240 very first I guess person in the world that achieved 322 00:23:16.279 --> 00:23:19.640 a kind of fame that maybe J. Holmes might be 323 00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:20.400 interested in. 324 00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:25.160 Well. Part of the reason I included this stuff about 325 00:23:25.240 --> 00:23:29.839 Jack the Ripper, although one reason, as you say, was, 326 00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:33.759 you know, it was such a sensational crime story at 327 00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:40.359 the time, was at the time I wrote the book 328 00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:44.000 which was published, and I believe in nineteen ninety four, 329 00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:49.039 you know, Holmes had been pretty much totally forgotten. I 330 00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:52.960 mean now, of course, thanks largely to Eric Larson's book. 331 00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:55.759 You know, many many more people are aware of him, 332 00:23:57.000 --> 00:23:59.359 but you know, it was very, very fascinating to me 333 00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:03.720 at the time, and it was something that his contemporars 334 00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:09.000 noted that you know that that you know, there was 335 00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:14.599 this internationally infamous serial killer at large in England and 336 00:24:14.759 --> 00:24:17.720 here in America, there was a you know, a serial 337 00:24:17.799 --> 00:24:21.640 murderer who is every bit is terrifying as Jack the 338 00:24:21.720 --> 00:24:25.400 Ripper in certain ways, even more so, you know, and 339 00:24:25.720 --> 00:24:28.640 he had largely been he'd largely been forgotten at that point. 340 00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:35.359 As for Holmes, you know, Holmes clearly at the end 341 00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:39.039 of his life, you know, craved the kind of notoriety 342 00:24:40.039 --> 00:24:44.680 that Jack the Ripper had achieved. I don't know. I mean, 343 00:24:44.920 --> 00:24:49.039 there's no record of exactly what he thought about the 344 00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:53.839 Whitechapel crimes while they were taking place, but it was 345 00:24:54.240 --> 00:25:00.640 you know, again, Homes like many serial killers who have 346 00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:05.680 this kind of megalomaniac streak in them, you know, certainly 347 00:25:05.799 --> 00:25:09.960 wanted to be remembered once he was caught, you know, 348 00:25:10.119 --> 00:25:13.119 a as a world class criminal on the order of 349 00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:13.880 Jack the Ripper. 350 00:25:17.240 --> 00:25:25.559 Yes, now you also talk about ben Epitizl if that's 351 00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:30.079 the right pronunciation, and an important character in this story 352 00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:32.799 as well. And he marries a woman named Carrie Canning, 353 00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:36.079 and they settle in Chicago and answer an ad for 354 00:25:36.200 --> 00:25:41.839 work as a carpenter. What is this project? And tell 355 00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:44.160 us about this meeting between the two. 356 00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:46.200 Uh. 357 00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:49.359 Yeah, it's hard to know how to pronounce the name. 358 00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:52.519 And I probably knew it at some point. I think 359 00:25:52.599 --> 00:25:58.400 it was Pitzel. And the reason I knew it at 360 00:25:58.440 --> 00:26:03.359 one point and it's a function of my age that 361 00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:06.400 I forgot a lot of stuff. But I but when 362 00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:08.079 I was writing the book, I actually got to know. 363 00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:12.079 In fact, my book is dedicated to her Pizel's granddaughter, 364 00:26:13.839 --> 00:26:17.759 who provided with a lot of family information. Uh. But yeah, 365 00:26:17.960 --> 00:26:20.319 but Ben was you know, he was a handy man, 366 00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:26.039 he was an alcoholic. Uh. He responded to an advertisement 367 00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:29.880 for from homes Homes at that point, you know, is building, 368 00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:34.680 you know, the the edifice that would ultimately become you know, 369 00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:38.640 infamous as his quote unquote Howard Castle. Uh. He was 370 00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:41.920 hiring a lot of people, but there was something about 371 00:26:42.359 --> 00:26:49.720 Ben Pizel, we'll call him that homes again. Immediately recognized 372 00:26:50.319 --> 00:26:55.240 some kind of person that he would be able to 373 00:26:55.480 --> 00:27:00.799 manipulate for his own purposes. You know, Pisel became his minion. Really, 374 00:27:01.799 --> 00:27:04.799 Pipsol became his right hand man, and ultimately, you know, 375 00:27:04.920 --> 00:27:10.200 the victim that you know brought brought Homes down. But yeah, 376 00:27:10.279 --> 00:27:14.960 but Tizel was, yes, I guess his minion, you know, 377 00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:19.920 is the most accurate way to describe him. 378 00:27:23.400 --> 00:27:27.039 You talk about his behavior as a businessman. On the 379 00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:33.640 on the surface, people see this enterprising, charming, wealthy businessman. 380 00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:38.079 But meanwhile, this this structure should have taken six months 381 00:27:38.119 --> 00:27:39.519 but has taken eighteen months. 382 00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:40.720 Why is that? 383 00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:43.000 What is his business behavior? 384 00:27:44.839 --> 00:27:49.640 Well, again, you know, they're probably a number of different factors, 385 00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:56.440 but one appears to have been in that Homes would hire. 386 00:27:58.240 --> 00:28:00.720 He just hired this incredible number of work. And he 387 00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:03.400 would apparently hire a workman to do, you know, put 388 00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:06.359 up a wall, and then fire the guy, you know, 389 00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:08.880 and then hire somebody else to do a little job, 390 00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:11.160 and then fire the guy and so on and so forth. 391 00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:14.759 And you know, apparently he you know, the rationale for 392 00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:18.119 this was a he didn't want anybody to have any 393 00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:22.680 really firm sense of what the interior of the castle 394 00:28:22.839 --> 00:28:25.839 is ultimately going to look like. So, you know, instead 395 00:28:25.839 --> 00:28:28.240 of hiring a contractor to handle the whole job. He 396 00:28:28.359 --> 00:28:31.519 became the contractor himself, you know, and we're just hire. 397 00:28:31.559 --> 00:28:34.599 As I said, you know, scores and scores of workmen, 398 00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:37.519 you know, each one assigned to do one little task 399 00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:40.200 and then get fired. And then the other thing was, 400 00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:43.119 you know that homes would have a guy do whatever, 401 00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:46.039