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Speaker 1: Okay, So the story we're diving into today, it honestly

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sounds like something straight out of a sci fi movie. Seriously,

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it really does. But it's tangled up with you know,

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real science, real political intrigue, and a mystery that's still unsolved,

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what nearly thirty years later.

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Speaker 2: That's right, it's a cold case. But with these incredible

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layers and the.

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Speaker 1: Cool question, the hook here is pretty mind bending. What

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if this world, everything around us, the ground, the air,

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physics itself. What if it's not actually solid? What if

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it's fundamentally just information code?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like a cosmic computer program exactly.

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Speaker 1: And what if one scientist, a really dedicated, highly trained guy,

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believed he was right on the verge of proving it.

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Speaker 2: That scientist was Jacobo Grinberg, and he was calling the

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world a matrix literally two decades before the movies made

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it famous.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Okay, so his work sits at this really strained crossroads,

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doesn't it Like serious brain science, psychophysiology.

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Speaker 2: Uh huh, rigorous academics, but then also ancient shamanism quantum

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physics ideas.

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Speaker 3: It is a wild mix.

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Speaker 1: So our job today, our mission is to kind of

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unpack all of this. We've got sources covering his life,

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his theories, which were definitely groundbreaking but also super controversial.

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And then the really baffling part his disappearance.

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Speaker 2: Right when he was about to launch this massive career

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defining experiment. Yeah, poof gone.

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Speaker 1: Vanished without a trace. So we need to look at

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the evidence, the doubts people had, and you know, the

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darker theories about what actually happened to the man who

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thought he could tweak the source code of reality.

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Speaker 2: To really get Grinberg, you almost have to start way

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back with this defining tragedy in his childhood. Okay, when

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he was just twelve his mother died brain tumor.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, that young That must have hit him.

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Speaker 2: Hard, immensely, And it didn't just you know, cause grief.

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It totally shaped his path. He basically dedicated his life

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from then on to understanding the brain, that ultimate mystery.

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Speaker 1: But he started out completely mainstream, right like, purely within

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Western science.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely he was laser focused on cracking the code of consciousness,

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but through the established scientific method degrees in psychology psychophysiology.

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He got his PhD right, even set up his own

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pretty sophisticated research lab in Mexico, spent years just looking

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at you. Brain reactions to basic stimuli, very objective, measurable stuff.

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Speaker 1: Oh, he was on track for a totally normal, respectable

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academic career.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, which makes the turning point in nineteen seventy five

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just so dramatic. It wasn't like he slowly drifted towards

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the weird stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: No, it's like a sudden collision. His whole, carefully built

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scientific worldview got smashed by this one invitation.

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Speaker 1: An invitation where from from.

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Speaker 2: Los Pinos, the Mexican presidential headquarters. Essentially, huh it came

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from Margarita Lopez Portillo.

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Speaker 1: The President's sister.

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Speaker 3: That's the one.

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Speaker 2: She was a big deal socially, but also crucially she

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was really into supporting indigenous Mexican culture and traditions.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I see the connections starting.

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Speaker 2: It was Portillo who set up the meeting that changed

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everything for Greenberg. She introduced him to this woman who

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became his mentor and really the core of his later theories.

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Speaker 3: Doing to put.

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Speaker 1: Cheetah ta cheetah. Okay, and who was she?

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Speaker 2: Officially officially records listener as a cabaret singer and a

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lottery ticket seller. Pretty mundane, but unofficially. Unofficially, she was

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a hugely famous Shawmanness, known all over Mexico for performing

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these well paranormal procedures, healings that seemed impossible, like.

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Speaker 1: What kind of things are we talking about?

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Speaker 2: The stories were incredible, curing blindness, fixing chronic illnesses, making

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women fertile who couldn't conceive, even supposedly bringing people back

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from the brink of death.

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Speaker 1: WHOA Okay, So Grienberg, mister PhD in psychophysiology, he must

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have been super skeptical, right.

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Speaker 3: You'd think so.

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Speaker 2: I mean, his whole training was about objective, proof, replicable results. Yeah,

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but something about his drive to understand the brain, all

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aspects of it, pushed him. Maybe he thought, even and

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if it sounds crazy, if it's happening, it's part of

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reality and need studying. He had this openness despite the

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scientific rigor.

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Speaker 1: So he went in with an open mind, but still

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as a scientist.

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Speaker 2: Initially, yes, but what he claimed to have witnessed with

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Pacheetah it seemed to push him way beyond just objective observation.

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Speaker 1: So Pacheetah becomes his mentor his main research focus.

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Speaker 2: Basically, right, he starts observing her work really closely, especially

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these infamous spirit surgeries.

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Speaker 1: Spirit surgeries, what does that even mean?

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Speaker 2: Well, according to Greenberg's own writings, which are quite something,

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very clinical but also just full of astonishment, he said

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she was quote capable of materializing and dematerializing objects, organs

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and tissue.

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Speaker 1: Wait, materializing organs, like creating them out of nothing.

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Speaker 2: That's what he claimed to see. Things that just completely

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violate basic physics, you know, conservation of mass and energy.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's yeah. How did he even try to explain

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that scientifically? He couldn't just say magic.

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Speaker 2: Now, The scientist in him needed a mechanism. He theorized

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she was somehow achieving the manipulation of organic structures, like

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getting down to the fundamental building blocks of reality and

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rearranging them.

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Speaker 1: And she used a tool for this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, reportedly this old family knife, an heirloom, and but

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she'da wrapped it up in this whole story about her ancestry.

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Speaker 1: Let me guess something impressive.

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Speaker 2: Very she claims she was the niece of Maktezuma and

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the sister of the Aztec emperor Kotamac.

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Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, that's a big claim. Did anyone verify that?

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Speaker 2: Highly disputed and This is where the criticism of Grinberg

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really started to bite. How So, his academic peers basically said, look,

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he stopped being objective. He's not questioning these wild claims,

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whether it's the miracle healings or this incredibly grand ancestry.

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Speaker 3: He just seems to be accepting at all.

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Speaker 1: Like he was more of a fan than a scientist

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at that point.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, it looked like he wanted to believe so badly,

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maybe to fit his developing theories, that he wasn't pushing back.

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He was letting her narrative shape his science, not the

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other way.

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Speaker 1: He'd crossed a line in their view.

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Speaker 2: Definitely, he started taking her word for things. And if

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you take her word for things, then maybe the most

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significant thing she did, setting a precedent for Greenberg himself,

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was her vanishing act.

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Speaker 1: She vanished, like Greenberg later did multiple times.

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Speaker 2: Apparently, she had this long history of clashes with the

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Mexican government that kept trying to arrest her for practicing voodoo.

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Speaker 1: Rights basically, but then they got close, she'd just.

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Speaker 2: Disappear, utterly, vanish off the face of.

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Speaker 1: The air, and they couldn't find her.

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Speaker 2: The government never then, sometimes years later she'd just reappear,

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and the story says she looked like she had an

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age today.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's creepy, and suggests what she found a way out.

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Speaker 2: That's what it implied, right, that maybe she'd figured out

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how to actually temporarily at least exit our shared reality.

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Speaker 1: And Grenberg must have been fascinated by that.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely you can see how that idea disappearing as an

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escape would stick with him. He spent years trying to

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syntheize everything he saw with Pacheta, all these observations into

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his own framework.

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Speaker 1: Which led to his big publication, Yeah, in.

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Speaker 2: Nineteen eighty seven, The Shamans of Mexico. It was huge,

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six volumes, over twelve hundred pages. Wow, And apparently he

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wrote it incredibly fast, like this intense burst, a stream

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of consciousness. Almost.

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Speaker 1: What was the main argument in it beyond just Pacheetah,

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it was broader.

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Speaker 3: It was this cultural critique. Really.

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Speaker 2: He argued that Mexico, because of centuries of colonization and

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Western influence, had basically dismissed its own deep shamanic traditions,

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ignored them in favor of this purely materialistic view of

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the world. Greenberg wanted to use science, his science, not

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to debunk shamanism, but to actually explain it, to give

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it a scientific footing, and that attempt led him to

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his most radical idea, the centergic theory, often called the

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curic theory.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so this is the big one, the curic theory.

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This is his explanation for everything for Pecheetah, materializing organs

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pretty much.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he needed a scientific sound mechanism, right. He proposed

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that Pacheetah, by radically altering her state of consciousness, could

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tap into this fundamental level of reality, a state of

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pure energy where everything was alterable.

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Speaker 1: Like accessing the universe's operating system.

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Speaker 2: That's a great way to put it. She wasn't just

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observing reality, she was, in his view, interacting with its

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underlying structure.

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Speaker 1: And that evolved into the formal cuic theory.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, which basically frames reality as well as an informational construct,

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a simulation if you like. It's his attempt to unify

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consciousness and the physical world.

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Speaker 1: Let's break that down. What are the parts?

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Speaker 2: Okay, So first you have the matrix, that's his term

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for the source code, this vast universal information field. Some

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might call it the lattice or the unified field. It

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holds all the potential information for everything that could possibly exist. Right,

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the potential then you have consciousness or individual awareness. Grimberg

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saw consciousness as the code reader. It interacts with that

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universal field, and by observing or interacting, it collapses the

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potential information into the specific reality we experience.

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Speaker 1: So my experience right now talking to you, seeing this room,

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that by consciousness running the code from the matrix.

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Speaker 2: According to the theory, yes, our shared experience is built

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from consciousness processing that universal information.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So where do shamans like Pacheetah fit in?

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Speaker 2: This is the crucial bit. Grinberg believed that certain individuals,

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through intense training or inateability, could shift their consciousness. They

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could go from just being a passive code reader to

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becoming an active code.

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Speaker 1: Writer, so they could edit the matrix.

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Speaker 3: That's the idea.

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Speaker 2: By merging their awareness back into that collective field, they

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could supposedly manipulate the information itself, manifest an organ heal

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and illness, or maybe even you know, remove themselves from

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the manifest reality.

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Speaker 3: Vanish Wow.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you have to admit it's an incredibly ambitious theory.

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It tries to explain everything from normal physics to the paranormal,

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all in one frame.

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Speaker 2: It's intellectually audacious, for sure, is internal logic.

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Speaker 1: But how did the scientific community react. I can't imagine

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they loved it.

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Speaker 3: Oh, absolutely not.

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Speaker 2: Immediate brutal ridicule.

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Speaker 3: He was basically ostracized.

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Speaker 1: Was it just too weird?

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Speaker 2: The main criticism wasn't even necessarily that it was wrong,

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It was that it was quote impossible to test. How

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do you design an experiment to prove or disprove that

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reality is a simulation being edited by shamans. It was

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just too far outside the bounds of standard, measurable, replicable

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science for most people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I can see that. But was he completely alone

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in thinking along these lines about reality being information consciousness

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playing a role?

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Speaker 3: Not at all.

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Speaker 2: And this is where it gets really interesting. If you

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look at theoretical physics around the same time, and even before,

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similar ideas were bubbling up, like what well think about

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John Wheeler, giant in twentieth century physics, coined terms like black.

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Speaker 3: Hole, wormhole.

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, Wheeler proposed something called the partition disipating anthropic principle,

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basically the idea that the universe in a way requires

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observers to come into being. His concept was it from

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bit that the physical reality the it arises from information.

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Speaker 1: The bit that sounds remarkably similar to Grimberg's matrix and

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consciousness being the reader.

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Speaker 2: It's a striking parallel, isn't it The idea that reality

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isn't just out there independent of us, but that our observation,

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our consciousness, is somehow fundamental to its existence. Without an observer,

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maybe the universe just stays as pure potential, pure information.

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Speaker 1: And there's some physical basis for seeing reality as information.

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Speaker 2: Well, think about it. Atoms, right, the supposed building blocks

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of matter. They're ninety nine point nine to nine percent

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empty space, and the universe itself is overwhelmingly empty space.

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What we perceive is solid is actually this incredibly sparse

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arrangement of something maybe information points activated by consciousness.

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Speaker 1: So Grimberg, down in Mexico in the eighties working with Shamans,

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was kind of landing on the same conceptual territory as

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high level quantum physicists.

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Speaker 2: Really seems that way he was essentially describing what later

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got called the simulation hypothesis ideas pushed by people like

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Frank Tipler in ninety four, Nick Bostrom in the two thousands.

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Greenberg was trying to use his shamanic data as the

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empirical bridge decades early.

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Speaker 1: But being ahead of the curve meant.

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Speaker 2: Total academic isolation pretty much.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so Greenberg has got this grand theory, but the

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academics aren't buying it because it's untestable. He needs proof, right,

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hard data exactly.

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Speaker 2: He realized philosophical arguments weren't cutting it. He needed to

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demonstrate at least one piece of the puzzle empirically, specifically,

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that universal field connecting all minds. If the matrix is real,

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maybe telepathy or entanglement between minds could be shown in

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the lab.

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Speaker 1: So he designed an experiment.

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Speaker 2: He did his famous telepathy experiment. The setup was actually

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quite clever, simple but aiming for something profound.

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Speaker 1: How did it work.

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Speaker 2: He'd get two participants, wire them up with EG electrodes

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to read their brain waves. Then he'd have them meditate

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together try to consciously connect it. Okay, Once they felt

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that connection, he'd separate them, put them in different rooms

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totally isolated, no sound, no light leakage between them.

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Speaker 1: Got it shielded room right.

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Speaker 2: Then the key part, only one participant, the receiver, would

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be hit with stimuli like bright flashes of light, loud noises.

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The other participant, the isolated one, just sat there in silence.

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Speaker 1: And darkness, and he was measuring both their brain waves simultaneously.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and he wasn't just looking for any brain activity.

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He was looking for very specific signals called visually evoked

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potentials veps. These are well known measurable electrical responses in

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the brain that happen specifically when you see a visual

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stimulus like a flash of light. Also looking for patterns

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of coherence between brain areas.

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Speaker 1: So if the isolated person showed a VP at the

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exact same time the receiver saw the flash.

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Speaker 2: That would be extraordinary. It would imply their brain was

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reacting as if it saw the flash, even though it

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objectively didn't.

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Speaker 1: And did he find that well?

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Speaker 2: The results he reported were pretty startling. He claimed that

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in about twenty five percent of the trials, nearly one

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in four, the brain waves of both participants showed those

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identical simultaneous reactions, the veps, the coherence patterns, everything matched up.

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Speaker 1: WHOA, So the isolated person's brain acted like it was

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seeing the light or hearing the sounds.

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Speaker 2: That's what his data suggested for Greenberg.

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Speaker 3: This was it.

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Speaker 2: This was the smoking gun, proof of telepathic entanglement, proof

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of that underlying universal fuel connecting them the matrix.

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Speaker 1: Okay, but twenty five percent isn't one hundred percent? And

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how did other scientists react to this? Surely this was

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more testable.

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Speaker 2: More testable, yes, but still met with huge skepticism. The

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critics jumped all over the methodology. How so, they argued,

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it was just too easy to get false positives? Was

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the shielding really perfect? Could there have been some subtle

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environmental queue, maybe an electrical surge in the building affecting

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both sets of equipment simultaneously.

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Speaker 1: Right, confounding variables exactly.

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Speaker 2: The core principle extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And for

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the mainstream Grenberg replicating this in his own lab with

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his own team it just wasn't enough. It needed independent

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replication under extremely rigorous.

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Speaker 1: Conditions, which didn't happen.

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Speaker 3: I'm guessing not widely.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 3: But here's the twist.

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Speaker 2: While the academic world was mostly scoffing ye, someone else

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was paying very close attention.

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Speaker 3: The CIA.

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Speaker 1: The CIA, seriously, why would they care about telepathy experiments

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in Mexico because.

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Speaker 2: They had been running their own secret program for nearly

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twenty years called Stargate.

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Speaker 1: Project Stargate like the movie.

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Speaker 2: Kind of yeah, but this was real. It was a

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massive classified effort looking into psychic phenomena, remote viewing, telepathy, psychokinesis.

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They were exploring it all for potential intelligence and military applications,

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psychic warfare essentially.

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Speaker 1: Okay, wow, So the US government was spending millions trying

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to weaponize psychic powers.

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Speaker 2: For two decades. Yes, it sounds wild, but it's document it.

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So for them, a scientist potentially proving telepathic entanglement in

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a lab that wasn't just academic curiosity. That was potentially

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a major breakthrough with serious national security implications.

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Speaker 1: So they took Greenberg's work seriously, even if universities didn't.

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Speaker 2: It certainly appears that way his work, whether he knew

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it or not, was touching on things the Intelligence Committee

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considered strategically vital.

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Speaker 1: Meanwhile, Greenberg himself, was he aware of the CIA interest

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or was he just focused on convincing the scientific world.

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Speaker 2: His focus seemed entirely on the science. He knew the

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small lab results weren't convincing the skeptics. He needed something bigger,

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something undeniable.

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Speaker 1: The final experiment.

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Speaker 2: The final experiment he planned, as he apparently put it,

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to shut up the skeptics once and for all by

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replicating the entanglement experiment on a massive scale internationally. He

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told his daughter as Kusha, he was heading to kathmun Du.

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Speaker 1: Nepal, Nepal. Why so far.

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Speaker 2: The plan was to test meditators simultaneously on different continents.

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Imagine subjects into Pall maybe others in Mexico or the US,

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all wired up. If he could show those synchronized brain potentials,

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those VIPs appearing at the exact same moments across thousands

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of miles.

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Speaker 1: That would be impossible to explain away as a lab

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error or faulty wiring exactly.

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Speaker 2: He would require multiple independent teams, observers, standardized equipment. He'll

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be global, verifiable proof of that universal connection, his ultimate vindication.

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Speaker 1: But he never got to run that experiment.

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Speaker 3: Never happened.

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Speaker 2: December eighth, nineteen ninety four. Jacobo Grenenberg just vanished.

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Speaker 1: Wow, Like what were the circumstances.

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Speaker 2: No note, no farewells, nothing, just gone.

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Speaker 1: And people didn't realize immediately.

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Speaker 2: Well, initially there was confusion. Did he just decide to

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leave take off somewhere, but he was apparently very close

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to his family, very dedicated to his work. Then four

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days later, he missed his own birthday party.

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Speaker 1: Ah, that's when they knew.

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Speaker 2: That's when the alarm bells really went off. His family

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knew something was deeply.

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Speaker 1: Wrong, so they reported him missing.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and his daughter as Stucia. She was actually the

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lead singer in a band called Heaven and Earth. Reasonably

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well known. She used her platform, went on American TV

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offered a cash reward for information that help any leads.

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It generated a flood of calls. Tips poured in, but

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the problem was almost none of them checked out. People

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claiming they saw him couldn't actually describe him properly when pressed.

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It was overwhelming, but ultimately fruitless.

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Speaker 4: So the police investigation who handled that the cold case

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eventually landed with a Mexican police commander named Clemente Padia,

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apparently a really sharp, dedicated investigator, got a reputation for

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closing every.

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Speaker 3: Case he took on until this one.

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Speaker 2: This became the one black mark on his record, the

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only case he couldn't solve.

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Speaker 1: What did Padea find?

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Speaker 2: Initially, first the basics, he checked passport control airports, no

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record of Greenberg officially leaving Mexico, so he didn't fly out,

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didn't fly out, and despite telling his daughter he was

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going to Kathermine Doo. Padilla found zero credible sightings there.

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Nothing panned out, which meant which this meant the focus

392
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had to be Mexico or maybe neighboring countries reachable by road.

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If he didn't fly, he was likely still relatively local

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or had driven.

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Speaker 1: Okay, did Padea find any sightings that did seem credible?

396
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Speaker 2: Just one, but it was a big one in Bolder, Colorado?

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Speaker 1: Bolder? Why there?

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Speaker 2: This woman contacted Padia. She was apparently a reader of

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Scientific American, recognized Grenberg's picture from an article. Said she

400
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saw him plain a day walking down the street in.

401
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Speaker 1: Boulder, Okay. Was he alone?

402
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Speaker 2: No, And this is the crucial detail. She said, he

403
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was being followed quite closely by two men.

404
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Speaker 1: In suits, suits like government type.

405
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Speaker 3: That was the implication.

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Speaker 2: But the weirdest part, she said, Greenberg seemed totally aware

407
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they were there. He wasn't hiding, wasn't trying to get away.

408
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It looked like he was being escorted or maybe watched,

409
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but wasn't resisting it.

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Speaker 1: That's bizarre. What did Padia do with that?

411
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Speaker 3: He realized this is huge.

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Speaker 2: He uses own contacts, reached out to the CIA liaison

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in Mexico. He described sighting the men in suits.

414
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Speaker 1: And the CIA knew them.

415
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Speaker 2: The agent Padilla spoke to reportedly recognized the description immediately

416
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said something like, oh yeah, sounds like my colleagues, and

417
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he named them Rick Howard and Marina of Alaska, CIA agents.

418
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Speaker 1: Whoa so confirmation. CIA agents were with Greenberg in Colorado

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after he vanished from Mexico.

420
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Speaker 2: Exactly for Padia, this felt like the case was cracked.

421
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He had names, affiliation, location. He figured you just needed

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to go through official channels back in Mexico through the PGR.

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Speaker 1: PGR that's the Tree General's off right.

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Speaker 2: The Procuratory at General de Laripublica, the top federal investigators.

425
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Badia went to them with the CIA names the Boulder siding,

426
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expecting them to formally request info from the US and

427
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did they No. The complete opposite happened, immediate stonewalling, obstruction.

428
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Speaker 1: They wouldn't pursue the CIA lead.

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Speaker 2: Worse, Padilla was abruptly pulled off the case. No real

430
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explanation given, just shut down.

431
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Speaker 1: Just like that, after identifying US agents.

432
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Speaker 3: Just like that.

433
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Speaker 2: He was so frustrated seeing his best lead ignored. He

434
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apparently resigned from the force over it. And then shortly

435
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after Greenberg's official case file at the PGR it was

436
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:22,440
declared lost lost convenient, extremely convenient. The whole official investigation

437
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,759
just stopped dead in its tracks, which of course just

438
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adds another layer of mystery to the whole thing.

439
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Speaker 1: Okay, so the official investigation gets shut down, the file disappears.

440
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That just screams cover up, doesn't it.

441
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Speaker 2: It definitely feels speculation. And given what Greenberg was working on,

442
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this intersection of consciousness, physics, maybe even psychic abilities, the

443
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theories get pretty wild.

444
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Speaker 1: All right, Let's break them down. He said they are

445
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about five main ones.

446
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Speaker 2: Yeah, if five, they keep coming up. Let's start with

447
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the most obvious, given the Boulder sighting theory one the CIA, Yeah,

448
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either a cover up or maybe protection.

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Speaker 1: Okay, the cover up angle first, why would they silence him?

450
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Speaker 2: Well, we know they were interested. Stargate project proves that

451
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,960
documents mention him. Then you have the agents identified in Boulder,

452
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the motive maybe that final caf Bund experiment. If Grienberg

453
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was about to publicly prove that all human minds are

454
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potentially linked in this universal field. That's knowledge with huge implications.

455
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Could it be weaponized? Did they see it as a

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national security threat that needed to be contained by removing the.

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Speaker 1: Source stop the proof from getting out.

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Speaker 2: Possibly, But there's a counter argument. It is, if you

459
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want to suppress an idea, pragmatically making the guy vanish

460
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in a huge mystery is maybe.

461
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Speaker 3: The worst way to do it.

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Speaker 2: It just amplified his notoriety, spread his theories like wildfire

463
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because of the intrigue.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the streisand effect almost exactly.

465
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Speaker 2: Wouldn't it been easier to just discredit him, cut off funding,

466
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sabotage the experiment quietly. A dramatic disappearance seems counterproductive if

467
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suppression was the only goal.

468
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Speaker 1: So the other CIA angle is protection, like witness protection.

469
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Speaker 3: That's floated too.

470
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Speaker 2: Maybe he knew something dangerous, or maybe they thought his

471
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research was too dangerous for him, so they extracted him,

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put him somewhere safe.

473
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,559
Speaker 1: But would Grinberg agree to that? Didn't you say he

474
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:08,759
was kind of anti Western establishment.

475
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 2: That's the sticking point. It seems completely out of character

476
00:23:12,559 --> 00:23:15,039
for him to voluntarily go under the wing of the CIA,

477
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,440
the very symbol of the materialistic power structure he seemed

478
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:19,160
to critique.

479
00:23:19,319 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 3: It doesn't quite fit his profile.

480
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,640
Speaker 1: Okay, so CIA is theory one. What's next?

481
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 2: Theory two? The Mexican government. This focuses more on Padia

482
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,559
getting shut down, the PGR.

483
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 1: File vanishing local politics.

484
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:32,599
Speaker 3: Right.

485
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 2: Remember, Greenberg had connections right to the top via the

486
00:23:35,759 --> 00:23:40,920
president's sister, Margherita Lopez Portillo, and his mentor. Pachittah had

487
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:45,160
her own complicated history with the authorities being pursued for voodoo.

488
00:23:45,799 --> 00:23:49,160
Speaker 1: So maybe talking about shamanism, especially linked to powerful figures,

489
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:50,240
was still sensitive.

490
00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:54,079
Speaker 2: It could be maybe Padia uncovering US agents operating in

491
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,039
relation to Greenberg was something the Mexican government wanted buried,

492
00:23:57,559 --> 00:24:00,519
either to avoid diplomatic issues or to purt their own

493
00:24:00,559 --> 00:24:04,880
secrets or narratives around figures like Pacheetah. Removing Padilla stops

494
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:05,720
that line of inquiry.

495
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,759
Speaker 1: Cold makes sense, But what's the argument against this one time?

496
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 3: Manly?

497
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 2: Mexico's government has changed leadership multiple times since nineteen ninety four,

498
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:16,720
different parties, different.

499
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:17,319
Speaker 3: People in power.

500
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,799
Speaker 2: You'd think if it was purely a domestic political cover

501
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,160
up from that era, someone somewhere would have leaked something

502
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:29,039
by now a whistleblower, a deaf dead confession, but there's

503
00:24:29,039 --> 00:24:29,680
been silence.

504
00:24:30,599 --> 00:24:31,880
Speaker 1: Okay. Theory three.

505
00:24:32,039 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 3: Theory three, he.

506
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:38,640
Speaker 2: Just walked away voluntary retirement combined with unintentional myth making.

507
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,559
Speaker 1: Meaning he chose to disappear for privacy.

508
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe he was tired of the controversy, tired of

509
00:24:42,799 --> 00:24:46,160
the pressure, and just wanted out and vanishing it kind

510
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,160
of achieved two things of one, what we see and

511
00:24:48,519 --> 00:24:52,640
his ideas explode. The mystery itself lends credibility. If people

512
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,559
think powerful agencies had to silence him, that his theories

513
00:24:55,559 --> 00:24:58,759
about reality being malleable must have seemed way more plausible,

514
00:24:58,839 --> 00:25:02,319
more dangerous, right, his absence becomes the ultimate proof in

515
00:25:02,319 --> 00:25:02,920
a weird way.

516
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,400
Speaker 1: He gets peace and his legacy gets supercharged.

517
00:25:05,519 --> 00:25:08,640
Speaker 2: It's a neat if cynical logic, but it comes at

518
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,640
a huge cost emotionally. You mean, yeah, you have to

519
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,319
see Greenberg as well. Frankly extremely selfish to do that,

520
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,680
to just abandon his daughter, his siblings, everyone who cared

521
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,720
about him, leaving them with decades of uncertainty and grief.

522
00:25:22,079 --> 00:25:25,279
His family insists that wasn't him. It contradicts everything they

523
00:25:25,319 --> 00:25:26,799
say about his character right.

524
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 1: Which brings us to theory number four, the one medea

525
00:25:30,319 --> 00:25:32,480
the investigator apparently took seriously.

526
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:37,640
Speaker 2: Yes, theory four, the Teresa theory. It revolves around his

527
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:38,960
second wife, Teresa.

528
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 1: Okay, what's the story there?

529
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 2: Their relationship, by all accounts, was incredibly toxic in the

530
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:48,160
months before he vanished. People in his inner circle, his family,

531
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,519
his first wife, They were deeply suspicious of her. Why

532
00:25:52,279 --> 00:25:56,519
Greenberg himself left these desperate voicemails for family, saying Teresa

533
00:25:56,599 --> 00:26:00,880
was mentally torturing him. She was apparently bipolar, intensely jealous.

534
00:26:00,559 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 1: Of his work, and the suspicion went deeper.

535
00:26:02,559 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, his family started digging into her background, found out

536
00:26:05,519 --> 00:26:08,079
she'd married him without even telling her own family. Her

537
00:26:08,079 --> 00:26:11,680
academic credentials seemed questionable, maybe fake.

538
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 3: This fueled this.

539
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 2: Theory that she wasn't who she seemed, that maybe she

540
00:26:15,759 --> 00:26:18,839
was planted, planted by who could be anyone interested in

541
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:23,960
controlling him, the CIA, another agency, someone who wanted access

542
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:25,720
to or control over his research.

543
00:26:26,599 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 3: The secret agent theory.

544
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,440
Speaker 1: Wow, and how bad did things get between them?

545
00:26:30,519 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 2: So bad that Grinberg, in his final months was apparently

546
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,680
sleeping in his car sleeping in.

547
00:26:36,559 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 1: His car, the guy trying to unlock the secrets of

548
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:40,519
the universe yep.

549
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,319
Speaker 2: Felt safer or less tormented sleeping in his car than

550
00:26:43,319 --> 00:26:45,920
in his own home with her. That paints a pretty

551
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:46,559
grim picture.

552
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: Definitely, is there any actual evidence linking her to the

553
00:26:50,039 --> 00:26:52,279
disappearance beyond the bad relationship.

554
00:26:52,559 --> 00:26:55,799
Speaker 2: It's all circumstantial, but it adds up. She cashed a

555
00:26:55,839 --> 00:26:58,640
one thousand dollars check from his account right after he disappeared.

556
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,759
Motive pay off okay. Phone records showed she was making

557
00:27:02,799 --> 00:27:05,319
regular calls to a night watchman at a local school,

558
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,599
a guy known to have a paramilitary background. Very suspicious contact.

559
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,680
Her stories about where Jacobo went were contradictory. She told

560
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,160
a stepmother they were flying to nepall together. She told

561
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,319
the night watchmen he flew to a city within Mexico.

562
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:19,559
Can't both be true?

563
00:27:19,599 --> 00:27:20,599
Speaker 1: Red flags everywhere?

564
00:27:20,799 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 2: And then when she went to pick up her dog

565
00:27:23,319 --> 00:27:26,799
and clothes from their place later, she wasn't alone. She

566
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,599
was seen with another woman described as a blonde handler type,

567
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:32,680
like she was being managed escorted.

568
00:27:32,759 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 1: Okay, this is sounding less like a domestic dispute and

569
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,880
more like something else.

570
00:27:37,839 --> 00:27:40,319
Speaker 2: Right, right, But here's the final piece that makes this

571
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,079
theory so compelling and chilling.

572
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:43,640
Speaker 1: What's that?

573
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:49,079
Speaker 2: Exactly one year after Jacobo vanished December nineteen ninety five,

574
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:50,759
Teresa vanished too.

575
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 1: Teresa disappeared completely, never seen or heard from again. Wow.

576
00:27:54,519 --> 00:27:57,000
So if she was involved, maybe as part of an operation.

577
00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,640
Once her role was done, she.

578
00:27:59,759 --> 00:28:01,039
Speaker 3: Was move from the board too.

579
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,839
Speaker 2: It ties things up in a very neat, very dark way.

580
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 1: Okay, that's four theories. What's the last one? You said

581
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:07,279
it was the wildest?

582
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, theory five. He exited the matrix.

583
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: Literally, he used his own theory to leave.

584
00:28:11,839 --> 00:28:15,319
Speaker 2: That's the idea. It loops right back to Pachetah, his mentor.

585
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,400
Remember her vanishing act. Yeah, how she'd disappeared when the

586
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,119
authorities closed in. The theory is, what if she didn't

587
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,440
just teach him about manipulating reality? What if she taught

588
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,079
him how to do it, how to consciously depart from

589
00:28:28,079 --> 00:28:30,559
our reality if things got too dangerous.

590
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 1: So he wasn't taken, He wasn't hiding. He just stepped

591
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:35,960
sideways out of existence.

592
00:28:35,559 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 2: Following his mentor's footsteps, using the very principles he was researching.

593
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,079
It's poetically perfect in a way.

594
00:28:42,279 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: But to believe that You first have to believe the

595
00:28:45,039 --> 00:28:47,839
Cuic theory is real, and you have to believe Pachita

596
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,119
could actually do what Grinberg claimed exactly.

597
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,839
Speaker 2: And that requires a critical look at Pachitta's own credibility.

598
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,599
Speaker 1: Right, was there any independent proof of her powers?

599
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 2: Well, there's this famous story about the jazz legend Charles Mingus.

600
00:29:00,279 --> 00:29:01,799
Speaker 1: Mingus the musician.

601
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,599
Speaker 2: The very same He was suffering terribly from als Lugarrig's disease.

602
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,240
He went down to Mexico sought out Pachetah for one

603
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:09,279
of her spirit surgeries.

604
00:29:09,359 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: Did she cure him?

605
00:29:10,359 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 2: She performed her ritual with the knife. Mingus came out

606
00:29:13,319 --> 00:29:16,799
absolutely convinced he was cured. He apparently said something amazing

607
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,839
like she knows how to cut just between the pores

608
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:21,559
from God to Pachetah.

609
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 3: He believed.

610
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:24,279
Speaker 1: But was he actually cured?

611
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,559
Speaker 2: His wife, Sue Graham, was there. She was skeptical. While

612
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,319
Mingus was resting, she carefully peeled back the bandage Patchetta

613
00:29:31,359 --> 00:29:32,160
had put on him.

614
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 1: Was there a scar, surgery marks.

615
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,839
Speaker 2: Nothing, no cut, no blood, no physical evidence of any

616
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,920
surgery at all. Oh, Sue kept up the pretense for

617
00:29:41,039 --> 00:29:44,200
Charles's sake, didn't want to crush his hope, but sadly

618
00:29:44,319 --> 00:29:46,839
he passed away from the als just months later.

619
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: So that suggests Pachitta's real power wasn't materializing organs.

620
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 2: But maybe an incredible power of suggestion, the ability to

621
00:29:55,279 --> 00:29:59,359
make people believe she had altered reality, perhaps altering their

622
00:29:59,359 --> 00:30:02,920
subjective ex experience so profoundly they felt healed, even if

623
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,240
the underlying biology wasn't changed.

624
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: Which throws cold water on the idea she could teach

625
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,200
Greenberg how to physically exit the matrix.

626
00:30:09,319 --> 00:30:09,759
Speaker 3: It does.

627
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,599
Speaker 2: It makes that final most exotic theory rests more on

628
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,960
faith in Greenberg's interpretation than on verifiable evidence of Pacheeta's abilities.

629
00:30:17,039 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: So we're left with what a brilliant mind, a radical theory,

630
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,640
and a disappearance shrouded in conflicting evidence and intrigue.

631
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,519
Speaker 2: Pretty much, that's the legacy, isn't it. He made this

632
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:32,920
incredibly bold attempt to bridge science and spirit, using psychophysiology

633
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:38,079
to explore indigenous wisdom. But his ultimate proof, his big experiments,

634
00:30:38,519 --> 00:30:43,759
they vanished with him. Scientists haven't replicated the entanglement results convincingly.

635
00:30:43,799 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: The man, the data, it's all gone.

636
00:30:45,799 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 3: It's gone.

637
00:30:46,839 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 2: But the disappearance itself, as we said, becomes this strange

638
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,960
echoing statement, Maybe just because you can't find something, whether

639
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,480
it's a missing person and a lost government file or

640
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,400
a proof of a universal consciousness field, doesn't automatic mean

641
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:01,160
it doesn't exist.

642
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: That leaves us with a final thought, doesn't it a

643
00:31:03,559 --> 00:31:06,559
question for everyone listening if grin Broke was onto something,

644
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,920
even partially, If our consciousness does play a role in

645
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,599
shaping the reality we experience running that code, then what

646
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,319
kind of responsibility do we all have for the code

647
00:31:16,359 --> 00:31:19,640
we're collectively generating right now? What kind of reality are

648
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:21,480
we choosing to observe into existence?