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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 5: host journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 6: Good Evening. Some said the killer couldn't be a local.
Speaker 6: Others claimed he was the wealthy son of a prominent
Speaker 6: Morgantown family. Whispers spread that Meret and Karen were sacrificed
Speaker 6: by satanic cult who had been victims of a madman
Speaker 6: poised to strike again. Then the handwritten letters began to arrive.
Speaker 6: You will locate the bodies of the girls covered over
Speaker 6: with brush. Look carefully, the animals are now on the move.
Speaker 6: Investigators didn't find too few suspects. They had far too many.
Speaker 6: There was the campus janitor where the fur fetish, the
Speaker 6: harmless delivery man who beat a woman nearly to death
Speaker 6: they're nursing home orderly with the bloody broomstick. And the
Speaker 6: bouncer with the girlish laugh who threatened to cut off
Speaker 6: people's heads. Local authors Jeffrey C. Fuller and S. James
Speaker 6: McLaughlin tell the complete story of the murders for the
Speaker 6: first time. The book they were featuring this evening is
Speaker 6: The w VU co Ed Murders Who killed Merret and Karen,
Speaker 6: with my special guest journalists Jeff Fuller and S. James McLoughlin.
Speaker 6: Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for
Speaker 6: this interview. Jeff Fuller and S. James McLaughlin. Hi, Dan,
Speaker 6: good evening. Thank you very much for agreen to this interview.
Speaker 6: Let me start off with you, Sarah. Let's I won't
Speaker 6: ask how you got became involved with this story because
Speaker 6: that is involved in our interview and occurs later in
Speaker 6: this story. But why don't I get you, Sarah to
Speaker 6: tell us a little bit of the background about married
Speaker 6: Ellen Maleric and Karen Ferrell and get this a little
Speaker 6: bit of the setting for where this incredible story occurs.
Speaker 2: Sure, Merret and Karen had met at WVU. They were
Speaker 2: both freshmen. Karen was from a little town called Quinnwood
Speaker 2: in West Virginia and married was from Smoke Rise, New Jersey,
Speaker 2: which was sort of an upper class area. And they
Speaker 2: became really fast friends. And it wasn't really their typical
Speaker 2: behavior to hitchhike, but with the way that the transportation
Speaker 2: was set up at WU West Virginia University, they lived
Speaker 2: really far out in a dorm called Beverly Manor. They
Speaker 2: lived in the Westchester Hall of Beverly Manor, and the
Speaker 2: buses would stop running at I think it was seven
Speaker 2: PM something like that on a Sunday, and they had
Speaker 2: gone to see a movie together and the movie didn't
Speaker 2: let out until after ten thirty at night, so they
Speaker 2: had the option to either walk back to their dorms.
Speaker 2: This was January, January eighteenth, nineteen seventy. It was freezing cold,
Speaker 2: it was snowing, there was probably ice, and a lot
Speaker 2: of their trips, because this is West Virginia, a lot
Speaker 2: of that was going to be uphill on the way back,
Speaker 2: So they opted to hitchhike, and they were last seen
Speaker 2: getting into a cream collared car and they disappeared. The
Speaker 2: local police considered them runaways and didn't really look into
Speaker 2: the case very much until the state police set in,
Speaker 2: and then that's when it became an actual missing person's case.
Speaker 2: And I can go further if you want. That's that's
Speaker 2: sort of how they are part of this story, how
Speaker 2: they met and why they were important to this story.
Speaker 6: You talked about Morgantown police being involved till the state
Speaker 6: police intervened. Here, Jeff tell us about the what Morgantown
Speaker 6: police do? What information did they find? These women are disappeared,
Speaker 6: have disappeared, So how do they proceed?
Speaker 7: Well, they issued the contact the safely the FBI, a
Speaker 7: kind of standard procedure and said that they're missing. They
Speaker 7: they had over some time the subsequent a couple of
Speaker 7: weeks after they disappeared, they got they had tips coming
Speaker 7: in from different places, and uh, you know, they would
Speaker 7: follow up on these specific tips. But our biggest problem,
Speaker 7: serious and my problem in writing a book is was
Speaker 7: the records from the Morgantime police are all are long gone,
Speaker 7: So we only had news accounts and interviews and things
Speaker 7: like that, which you know, gave us a picture of
Speaker 7: what was happening, but not uh, definitive, definitive picture. And
Speaker 7: so it appears that they largely decided that, as Sarah said,
Speaker 7: the girls ran away and they didn't know where to look.
Speaker 7: So they didn't actually do that much apparently, other than
Speaker 7: follow up on tips that came in.
Speaker 6: Now, tell us about the state police. When when did
Speaker 6: they get involved, and who from the state police gets involved?
Speaker 7: Well, they they they were already in town because there
Speaker 7: was the county prosecutor had gotten in his car on
Speaker 7: January second, and the car had exploded when he turned
Speaker 7: the ignission key. So there were state police and some
Speaker 7: probably some FBI people, and there's the brand new ATS
Speaker 7: was also in town. But they were, you know, looking
Speaker 7: into how did that crime happen, what happened, you know,
Speaker 7: who may have been responsible. And in the process they
Speaker 7: begin to hear rumors of a connection between the disappearance
Speaker 7: and the bombing, and those rumors probably they weren't, as
Speaker 7: it turned out, really based on anything, but they probably
Speaker 7: arose because West Virginia at the time, especially, it was
Speaker 7: fairly you know, we were appeared to be at least
Speaker 7: fairly local. I mean, Karen and I found out later
Speaker 7: we weren't as low crime and safe as we thought.
Speaker 7: But anyway, the general perception was that there was no
Speaker 7: crime in that, you know, and then these two big
Speaker 7: crimes happened within a couple of weeks of each other,
Speaker 7: and everyone sort of or a lot of people started thinking, well,
Speaker 7: they must be connected. So the state police went to
Speaker 7: the Westchester Hall to interview anyone you know who lived
Speaker 7: on the fourth floor of Westchester Hall where married and
Speaker 7: Karen lived and see if they could find a connection
Speaker 7: between the two. They didn't. This was in late March.
Speaker 7: By this time, they didn't find the connection that they
Speaker 7: hoped to find, but they did get very drawn into
Speaker 7: the case because they didn't unders they didn't realize it
Speaker 7: had been so severe and that these two people have
Speaker 7: been missing without a trace for three months.
Speaker 6: So, as you say, Sarah, as Jeffa said, the emphasis
Speaker 6: was on the LaRita case with the sensational explosion and
Speaker 6: trying to kill this prosecutor potentially. But what it did
Speaker 6: have as an effect was is that the story of
Speaker 6: Merit and Karen now got a lot of traction in
Speaker 6: the media, didn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this wasn't the only reason that their case got attention,
Speaker 2: but it's sad that it had to come from other places.
Speaker 2: So we have Larita's bombing and that's what brings in
Speaker 2: the state police, who are actually investigating it as a
Speaker 2: missing person and not a runaway. But then we have
Speaker 2: these mysterious letters that are postmarked from Cumberland, Maryland that
Speaker 2: are taunting the whereabouts of these young women, and so
Speaker 2: the state police are sort of galvanized at that point
Speaker 2: through the governor to try and find these women, because
Speaker 2: the assumption is at this point that whoever's writing these
Speaker 2: letters that are only signed with a triangle their suspect
Speaker 2: number one.
Speaker 7: At this point.
Speaker 6: So how do they proceed with the investigation of these
Speaker 6: triangle letters? What does it lead to?
Speaker 2: Well, in the second letter there is a crudely drawn
Speaker 2: map and it has directions that you go twenty five
Speaker 2: miles south from the most southern tip of Morgantown and
Speaker 2: then one mile into the woods. And the police took
Speaker 2: that seriously. They got in their cars and they drove
Speaker 2: and they went twenty five miles and then they want
Speaker 2: one more and they found themselves in downtown Grafton, and
Speaker 2: they were not in the middle of the woods. They
Speaker 2: were in the middle of a fairly large city. But
Speaker 2: it was around this time that there were also some
Speaker 2: items of the girls that were being collected in the
Speaker 2: searches from the National Guard, and so a lot of
Speaker 2: the roles that leads south from Morgantown were being searched
Speaker 2: and they were finding their their licenses, broken compacts, They
Speaker 2: found prescription pills and prescription classes, things like that. So
Speaker 2: they finally got on the trail of where they had been,
Speaker 2: or at least where their killer had been.
Speaker 6: Now at the same well around this time as well,
Speaker 6: they find a couple of witnesses, this person named Itsy
Speaker 6: from the school and her boyfriend Skip. What did those
Speaker 6: two people tell state police?
Speaker 2: Do you want say that?
Speaker 7: Joe? Yeah? Okay, yeah. They actually assumed Skip it's She
Speaker 7: was also on the fourth floor at Westchester Hall and
Speaker 7: sort of heard the commotion. There were a lot of
Speaker 7: the people waiting up to see the night that they disappeared,
Speaker 7: waiting up to see if they would come back. And
Speaker 7: she came out of her dorm room and asked what
Speaker 7: was going on, and they said, oh, you haven't heard
Speaker 7: Merrick and Karen are missing, And she said, well, I
Speaker 7: just saw them at a movie. Skip and I were
Speaker 7: at a movie at downtown at the Metropolitan Seer and
Speaker 7: they Skipped and Itsy had decided to take the bus
Speaker 7: rather than a hitchhike, so they split off from the girls,
Speaker 7: and the girls started hitchhiking, and so Skip and Itsy
Speaker 7: had seen the two of them. A car stopped for them,
Speaker 7: a small white car, apparently a Cadillac or Chevy or
Speaker 7: they weren't sure. And they had got gotten into that
Speaker 7: car and the car had driven pats them and disappeared
Speaker 7: into the night. Now, when the car went past them,
Speaker 7: they married and Karen did not even acknowledge skipping itsy. Now,
Speaker 7: maybe they were talking and not paying attention, or maybe
Speaker 7: they weren't able to acknowledge because they had been told
Speaker 7: not to, so that's unclear, but they essentially were from
Speaker 7: that point looking for a white car, either Cadillac or Chevy,
Speaker 7: and Chevy was the leading contender, driven by a young man,
Speaker 7: dark hair, and the descriptions were variously kipping itty. The
Speaker 7: descriptions were variously between somewhere between twenty five and forty.
Speaker 7: They weren't sure the age of the man, but he
Speaker 7: was very clean cut and also didn't signal them or anything,
Speaker 7: didn't acknowledge them.
Speaker 2: And this car was like a white or cream colored
Speaker 2: car that it had sins on the back.
Speaker 6: Now, Sarah, there was another person that came forward, Donna
Speaker 6: de Young, And it's important regarding the petition that she
Speaker 6: initiates or wants to initiate tell us about Donna de
Speaker 6: Young what she says to a police.
Speaker 2: Donna had been friends with Married. They had gone to
Speaker 2: school in New Jersey, I think from grade school through graduation,
Speaker 2: and they were actually roommates in college. She was Married's roommate,
Speaker 2: and she was very, very concerned when they went missing.
Speaker 2: She said that wasn't like merit at all, and she
Speaker 2: contributed quite a bit to try and help them find
Speaker 2: the girls. She and Married actually had matching purses, and
Speaker 2: so she sent her purse into the police so that
Speaker 2: they would know exactly what they were looking for. And
Speaker 2: she claimed that she got a strange phone call from
Speaker 2: a man with a strange accent, and he was telling
Speaker 2: her what she needed to get the police to do
Speaker 2: in order to find these girls. And we're not sure
Speaker 2: exactly if that was someone who had been in law
Speaker 2: enforcement or if this was someone that was just trying
Speaker 2: to help and thought this was the best way. But
Speaker 2: she tried to take this to the police. They weren't
Speaker 2: sure whether or not to take her seriously or not.
Speaker 2: And when she wasn't getting the answers that she wanted,
Speaker 2: or she wasn't getting the reaction that she wanted. She
Speaker 2: and a handful of other students that were concerned went
Speaker 2: to the university president and he helped get them an
Speaker 2: audience with a governor, and with that petition, they were
Speaker 2: able to talk to the governor and try to get
Speaker 2: a little more coverage on this case and get a
Speaker 2: little more manpower behind it.
Speaker 7: A little aside here, just so we keep referring to
Speaker 7: Merit and Karen as girls, and there was a couple
Speaker 7: of reasons for that. One isn't the age majority of
Speaker 7: the time was twenty one, so they technically were underage.
Speaker 7: And also that's how essentially how women were referred to,
Speaker 7: but women of that age were referred to at a time.
Speaker 7: So you know, we're not trying to be disrespectful or anything.
Speaker 7: Nowadays you'd said it was too young wound, but anyway,
Speaker 7: I just wanted to clarify that.
Speaker 6: So police are also there's an event on February seventeenth
Speaker 6: where a couple young women, Candy Bales and Cindy Smith.
Speaker 6: What happens with this and what do police believe might
Speaker 6: be this relation this crimes relation to Karen and Merritt.
Speaker 2: Candy and Cindy had also been hit hiking. They had
Speaker 2: been right across from the Mountain layer a little strip
Speaker 2: in between the lanes called Grumbne Island, and they were
Speaker 2: picked up by two young men and a red gto
Speaker 2: and they were being They were asking them to drop
Speaker 2: them off at their dorms, but then then kept going
Speaker 2: towards Star City and Osage, which was the opposite direction
Speaker 2: in which they needed to go, and they were driving
Speaker 2: really recklessly. They were driving fast, they were skipping red lights,
Speaker 2: and they were ignoring the girls. When they're saying, hey,
Speaker 2: I need to get back. I told my boyfriend I
Speaker 2: would be there. The girls are really scared because they're
Speaker 2: being ignored. They're not sure where they're being taken. And
Speaker 2: they noticed there's a crate of soda bottles glass Toto
Speaker 2: bottles in the backseat, so Candy grabs one and hides
Speaker 2: it in her jacket, and when the two men finally
Speaker 2: stop and get out, she grabs Cindy and pulls her
Speaker 2: out of the car and they try to make a
Speaker 2: run for it, and one of the men tries to
Speaker 2: grab her, and he grabs Candy by the throat, and
Speaker 2: so she hits them in the head with his bottle
Speaker 2: and she breaks the bottle on him, and he finally
Speaker 2: lets her go and they're able to kind of hide
Speaker 2: from them and walk down along the street. They're in
Speaker 2: no stage at this point, and they're able to hide
Speaker 2: behind some cars along the road until they feel that
Speaker 2: it's safe, and then they hitchhike again to get back
Speaker 2: into more Town. And they didn't really want to tell
Speaker 2: any one because Candy was afraid that she would go
Speaker 2: to jail for assault, and the other girls in her
Speaker 2: dorm were like, Hey, if you don't tell the police
Speaker 2: about this, this could happen to someone else. And so
Speaker 2: that's when she decides that she is going to figure
Speaker 2: out who this man is, and she does a lot
Speaker 2: of legwork. She does some detective work to find out
Speaker 2: who this person is because when she calls the police,
Speaker 2: they don't give her much of a reaction. So she
Speaker 2: knew that she has his name, she can bring forth
Speaker 2: a stronger case. And she remembered seeing his name, I
Speaker 2: think on his shirt, like his first name, and she
Speaker 2: knew that the bottles in the back were from RCI Cola,
Speaker 2: and so she took a chance that he worked at
Speaker 2: that warehouse, and she called all of the numbers that
Speaker 2: she could find and then the number that she got
Speaker 2: from the warehouse when she called and asked for his
Speaker 2: first name until she finally found and then she took
Speaker 2: that information to the police, but not until after she
Speaker 2: stocked him so she could see his face and make
Speaker 2: sure that it was him, and she said he saw
Speaker 2: her and he was quite shook.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 7: Yeah, another little scene setting thing here. We're talking about
Speaker 7: hitchhiking a lot, and that seemed very strange to a
Speaker 7: lot of people nowadays. But at time West Virginia had
Speaker 7: a split campus. Well it still does now, but transportation
Speaker 7: is better. They had a split campus which about a
Speaker 7: mile apart, and what that meant was that a lot
Speaker 7: of students hitchhiked constantly. So down on Grumbine's Island, right
Speaker 7: in front of the student union, there would be dozens
Speaker 7: and dozens of people hitchhiking. So hitchhiking was not sort
Speaker 7: of two individuals or four individuals taking a chance. It
Speaker 7: was a common method of transportation at the time. And
Speaker 7: the car a car would stop and as many students
Speaker 7: as could fit would pile into the car and that
Speaker 7: would drive away. So that was very common.
Speaker 6: Tell Us AB troopers Gooden and Mitchell and also their
Speaker 6: sergeant Heiss, and just the character of Gooden and some
Speaker 6: of the ideas he had regarding this murder. For these murders.
Speaker 7: Yeah, well, Preston Gooden was one of the troopers who
Speaker 7: had a lot of experience coming into the Saint Police
Speaker 7: and he had been and he'd taken whats of courses,
Speaker 7: he had trained with various police institutions and one of
Speaker 7: the things he was especially good at was investigation. That's
Speaker 7: what he had. His background was in Mitchell. Mitchell was
Speaker 7: a sergeant. He was kind of in charge, but actually
Speaker 7: much of the investigation. Harold Ama named Larry. Harold was
Speaker 7: also a trooper and Preston Gooden were together and Preston
Speaker 7: Gooden was very careful, did things by the book, and
Speaker 7: he became very concerned about what not only what might
Speaker 7: have happened to the two girls married and Karen, but
Speaker 7: also at the frequency with which similar things happen were happening,
Speaker 7: like with Cindy and Candy. That kind of thing seemed
Speaker 7: to happen a lot. And we've got some of that
Speaker 7: in the book of their interviews with people in Westchester.
Speaker 7: And they kept going back and back to Westchester. They
Speaker 7: would scour the streets looking for a similar car they would,
Speaker 7: you know, they just they did a lot of that
Speaker 7: kind of thing, trying to follow up everything, and they
Speaker 7: spent long hours at that until at one point on
Speaker 7: April sixteenth, about eleven in the morning, they started hearing
Speaker 7: some of the radio traffic and realized the girls had
Speaker 7: been found about ten miles south of Moregontown.
Speaker 6: Tell us the state that the police find the bodies
Speaker 6: of Merit and Karen, and what do they derive evidence wise?
Speaker 2: As a result, the bodies were found under a really
Speaker 2: crudely constructed tomb, that's what the media called it. It
Speaker 2: wasn't necessarily a tomb. It was very large rocks and
Speaker 2: a forked tree and branches, lots of brush that were
Speaker 2: covering them. And as they were dissecting this and pulling
Speaker 2: everything off, they realized that the girls were missing. Karen
Speaker 2: was missing her one of her shoes, Marrit was missing
Speaker 2: both of her boots, and Karen was missing a colt.
Speaker 2: But both of them did not have their heads and
Speaker 2: those were not found on any of the lands. It
Speaker 2: wasn't found ever to this day.
Speaker 7: Yeah, we have a lot of mines, and so they
Speaker 7: were searching minds and so forth. They looked all over
Speaker 7: the place, drained ponds and couldn't find anything.
Speaker 6: What was there? Was there any indication of sexual assault
Speaker 6: or any kind of sexual contact, There.
Speaker 2: Wasn't really a good way to test it. They had
Speaker 2: been in the in the weather for eighty eight days.
Speaker 2: Karen was sort of on the top, and she had
Speaker 2: taken the most damage from the elements and from animals,
Speaker 2: so they weren't able to ascertain whether that was or
Speaker 2: was not. Just there wasn't enough to testifind any evidence
Speaker 2: either way. But the way that they were found fully closed.
Speaker 2: Merrit was still wearing her stockings and she had a
Speaker 2: cigarette pack that she had tucked in the waist van
Speaker 2: with one cigarette, So it seemed really unlikely that they
Speaker 2: had been assaulted and then dressed themselves back so carefully.
Speaker 6: So what happened in terms of suspects emerging.
Speaker 7: Well, the first suspect they had was a man named
Speaker 7: Thrasher who lived nearby. They had they had been canvassing
Speaker 7: the neighborhood. They being Harold and Gooden, had been came
Speaker 7: canassing the neighborhood and they stopped by Lloyd and Thomas
Speaker 7: uh a Vilma's place and a farm, and they found
Speaker 7: out that there was a young man who named Eddie
Speaker 7: or you know, Charles Edward, but he was they called
Speaker 7: him Eddie, and he was had been a janitor at
Speaker 7: Westchester Hall, and he became the first person they looked
Speaker 7: into as a suspect. Now, subsequently there were many suspects.
Speaker 7: We have the whole section of the book that deals
Speaker 7: with the various people who are doing different kinds of
Speaker 7: bad things or had drawn the attention of authorities for
Speaker 7: various reasons that they thought might have been married in Karen,
Speaker 7: or might have been the killers of married Careen Well.
Speaker 2: And we also still had the letter writers at this point.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah. And one of the things the police did
Speaker 7: was the same police did was take handwriting samples of
Speaker 7: everybody they talked to, whether they were suspects or not.
Speaker 7: But they wanted to compare those handwriting samples to the letters.
Speaker 6: Exactly a lot go ahead. Sorry.
Speaker 2: There was actually a good better police work that went
Speaker 2: into tracking down the letter writer. I mean thousands and
Speaker 2: thousands of handwriting samples taken checked from voter registration and
Speaker 2: they were actually able to track the letter writers to
Speaker 2: a psychic science church in both summerset pa and Cumberland,
Speaker 2: Maryland with several members. They were able to track them
Speaker 2: down and they found out that the person that was
Speaker 2: writing them was a Reverend Hoover, and he was doing
Speaker 2: a seance and talking to a doctor Spencer who was
Speaker 2: telling him how to find the bodies. And they were
Speaker 2: eventually cleared. They were found to have nothing to do
Speaker 2: with the crimes.
Speaker 7: Doctor Spencer, by the way, he had died. I'm not
Speaker 7: sure when that was. I think the eighteen hundred. He
Speaker 7: was this body's spirit that River Hoover was communicating with.
Speaker 6: There was a dentist, Elius Costians Costians. He was a
Speaker 6: speck for a little while. Why was this dentist a suspect.
Speaker 7: Well, he Donna, the roommate that we spoke of before
Speaker 7: sealed it a call about eleven o'clock Monday morning after
Speaker 7: the girl's disappeared on Sunday night, and the call came
Speaker 7: from the dentist or If Costianus, who was you know prompt,
Speaker 7: very prominent local dentist, and he had uh fixed marriage.
Speaker 7: He had an appointment marriage and had an appointment with him
Speaker 7: the previous Monday, and he had started working on a
Speaker 7: Roottaniel kind of procedure and she was supposed to show
Speaker 7: up at his office that Monday at eleven. Now it
Speaker 7: police thought it was odd at the time that that
Speaker 7: why would the dentist call the dorm to try and
Speaker 7: figure out where the patient was? You know, it's it
Speaker 7: just seemed odd and they kind of thought it might
Speaker 7: be alibiing behavior. You know that he was like, I'm
Speaker 7: not going I see I called and so they did
Speaker 7: talk to him. At the time, they didn't really investigate
Speaker 7: much at all. It is somebody had to talk with
Speaker 7: him and ruled it out, but there wasn't there wasn't
Speaker 7: any strong reason grugle him out or in. At the time, he.
Speaker 2: Was also seen on campus with a white Cadillac Cadillac
Speaker 2: picking up hitchhiking co eds.
Speaker 6: Now we get back to this Sergeant Heiss, and he
Speaker 6: believes that the case is linked inextricably to these triangle letters.
Speaker 6: And so in this particular case, because of that, you
Speaker 6: have Troopers Gooden and Mitchell and others disagreeing with him.
Speaker 6: What does this lead to in terms of profiling and
Speaker 6: sort of the direction of the case and suspects.
Speaker 2: Well, I think that some people did agree that there
Speaker 2: was a ritualistic aspect to it, since their heads were missing.
Speaker 2: But there wasn't a single person who would ever go
Speaker 2: on record outside of heist that said that they saw
Speaker 2: triangles as well.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and he detectifies kind of early on had decided
Speaker 7: that apparently had decided that the two had run away,
Speaker 7: and he wasn't really but he also he's the one
Speaker 7: that saw various kinds of mystical connections and triangles on
Speaker 7: the grave and so on and so forth. But no
Speaker 7: one else seems to have seen that stuff, or at
Speaker 7: least won't say they did.
Speaker 2: I mean, Amon so far as to say and depressed
Speaker 2: that they didn't know what he was talking about.
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, how does William Gerkin become a suspect? And why?
Speaker 2: I'll let you take that one, Jeff.
Speaker 7: Well, that's Jerkin, by the way. He was a kind
Speaker 7: of high flying, high flying students at w VU. He
Speaker 7: was in aerospace engineering, but then he'd had started having
Speaker 7: some some issues, some personal issues, and had was basically
Speaker 7: was hospitalized several times. Now, what happened was there there
Speaker 7: was a rumor floating around among other frat fraternity guys
Speaker 7: and kind of around the school that Jerkin had written
Speaker 7: a story about decapitating two women in the fall in
Speaker 7: nineteen sixty nine. He had written that story. Now everyone
Speaker 7: talked who was talking to about police had a different
Speaker 7: version of the story that in some jerky was the
Speaker 7: was decapitated or he was the ones you know killed,
Speaker 7: it was a knife fight, it was gone. I mean,
Speaker 7: it was just various different versions of the story and
Speaker 7: no one could haven't produced the story. So there really
Speaker 7: wasn't anywhere to go with that. Now. As it turned out,
Speaker 7: he was having some problems, personal problems, and that just
Speaker 7: added to the rumor.
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Speaker 6: talking about what would lead to further suspects, and then
Speaker 6: we talk about January nineteen seventy six and a man
Speaker 6: confesses to killing and decapitating two college girls. Who is
Speaker 6: this and tell us more about this January nineteen seventy
Speaker 6: six confession, Sarah.
Speaker 2: I was gonna let just have that one. Eugene Paul
Speaker 2: Clawson was actually an inmate in a New Jersey prison,
Speaker 2: and he wrote a letter to the West Virginia State
Speaker 2: Police claiming that he had killed both the girls and
Speaker 2: looking a little bit closer at Clawson, that he had
Speaker 2: had a cellmate that was trying to help him perpetuate
Speaker 2: this idea, that he wasn't able to sleep, that he
Speaker 2: was haunted by his actions, and that he just couldn't
Speaker 2: hold it in anymore and he had to confess. And
Speaker 2: when when he was asked about about the crime, about
Speaker 2: what he did exactly, and he wrote like a I
Speaker 2: think it was a forty four page statement and it
Speaker 2: was just absolutely outlandish, all of the markers of several fetishes.
Speaker 6: And.
Speaker 2: It was not really adding up with the evidence necessarily,
Speaker 2: and whenever he would be confronted with some of these
Speaker 2: he would change his story. He claimed that he kept
Speaker 2: the heads and he had buried them under the house
Speaker 2: next to where he grew up, and then he changed
Speaker 2: that story to he threw them in a crevasse on
Speaker 2: conn Hill and Pennsylvania, and so there was a search there.
Speaker 2: They put cameras into the grounds and they found some hairs,
Speaker 2: human hairs from animal nests. But at that point they
Speaker 2: weren't really able to test hair with DNA that didn't
Speaker 2: have a bulb, and so they were only able to
Speaker 2: look at this hair underneath a microscope and say, will
Speaker 2: this could be one of the girls. It's sort of
Speaker 2: reddish and dyed, and they thought maybe it might be
Speaker 2: married's hair because she colored her hair. But he he
Speaker 2: also changed his mind and decided that he hadn't done
Speaker 2: the crimes. And that here. To understand Clausen, you have
Speaker 2: to realize that there there was a mental deficit. He
Speaker 2: was learning disabled. He had Kleinfelter syndrome, so he was
Speaker 2: x X y, there are a.
Speaker 6: Lot of.
Speaker 2: Like the situation was really stacked against him with his
Speaker 2: physical deformities, and just basically that that syndrome usually plays
Speaker 2: a part in impotence, really really highly, and he was
Speaker 2: claiming that he was raping them several times and it
Speaker 2: wasn't really adding up to his physical condition, it wasn't
Speaker 2: adding up with the evidence. And then he claimed that
Speaker 2: he made this up because he wanted to be taken
Speaker 2: from the New Jersey prison to the West Virginia prison,
Speaker 2: which was closer to where his mother lived. And he
Speaker 2: thought that once he was found not guilty because he
Speaker 2: didn't really do it, that he would be free, and
Speaker 2: it doesn't quite.
Speaker 7: Work like that.
Speaker 2: He would still have to finish his sentence. So he
Speaker 2: was a really interesting character. He was a very terrible person,
Speaker 2: but we don't believe that he's responsible, although he was
Speaker 2: convicted in seventy six and again in eighty one.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you'm right about this. You writ about the problem
Speaker 6: also David Solomon being tied to this and wanting and
Speaker 6: believing that he had the right man, so he pursued
Speaker 6: this regardless. And when you did, both of you re
Speaker 6: examine the evidence and the confession itself. There were numerous
Speaker 6: contradictions and just there was just no way that you
Speaker 6: could corroborate any of the things that he said in
Speaker 6: that confession not true.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, And it wasn't just us. There was a
Speaker 7: man named George Castel who had been a lackwerk at
Speaker 7: the West Virginia Supreme Court when they were revealing the
Speaker 7: first conviction, and he couldn't believe that there had been
Speaker 7: the conviction, and he re examined every bit of a case,
Speaker 7: and he had said that he wanted to his draft
Speaker 7: you know, results report. He had said he had wanted
Speaker 7: to dismiss charges against CLASSM with prejudice, which means they
Speaker 7: couldn't even refile. The case was that week. But the judge,
Speaker 7: for whatever reason, didn't go along the main you know,
Speaker 7: the head judge of Supreme Court. They don't go along
Speaker 7: with that recommendation. But they did overturn the seventy six
Speaker 7: verdict based on prejudicial evidence that was introduced by prosecutor Solomon,
Speaker 7: and so he had to be retried in nineteen eighty one.
Speaker 6: Now, tell us, Jeff, how you become involved with the
Speaker 6: state police. Preston Gooden and others. Tell us about this involvement.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I was living in Charleston's time, on the other
Speaker 7: side of the state. I was teaching classes, writing classes,
Speaker 7: and a gentleman who took one of my classes came
Speaker 7: up to me and asked me if I'd ever heard
Speaker 7: the could murders for the investigation or anything. And he
Speaker 7: turned out to be he was retired, but he was
Speaker 7: Lieutenant Colonel Richard Hall when he retired, and he wanted
Speaker 7: to go back and reinvestigate the case, which is how
Speaker 7: we both or how I got back into the got
Speaker 7: into the case because I was just sort of shadowing
Speaker 7: his investigation for a few years, starting in two thousand
Speaker 7: and six, I believe it was. And he was convinced
Speaker 7: he had been sent up to Camden, New Jersey to
Speaker 7: take Clawson's initial confession and see if it made sense.
Speaker 7: Because Richard had a lot of training with the Marines
Speaker 7: and then in the police with the Saint Police in
Speaker 7: investigation but also in testing confessions and you know, figuring
Speaker 7: out what was true. And he came away from that
Speaker 7: believing that claus and that there was no way that
Speaker 7: Clausen was making it all up. And Richard says every
Speaker 7: time he would say, well, it was pretty dark up there,
Speaker 7: how did you see? And then suddenly Clawson would have
Speaker 7: a flashlight, which he had never mentioned before. So they
Speaker 7: just kept being elements of the confession that appeared in
Speaker 7: response to Richard's questions, and he just thought, no, this
Speaker 7: guy didn't do it. Well, everyone else thought he did
Speaker 7: do it, and Richard was essentially overruled, and that may
Speaker 7: have been because of the Richard called it a social verdict,
Speaker 7: which he said was it was basically a verdict by society.
Speaker 7: Society had decided that he was guilty, and he was
Speaker 7: kind of The case was rammed through without a thorough investigation,
Speaker 7: which Richard didn't approve of. So that's how I got
Speaker 7: back into it. He was reinvestigating a number of people.
Speaker 6: Now, how does Charlie Herron and Eddie Thrasher get discussed again?
Speaker 6: And what is their connection via their grandparents?
Speaker 7: Interestingly, well, Richard and I were had taken a trip
Speaker 7: to Morgantown. Richard had received some, you know, some tips
Speaker 7: various people who said that they had information, and we
Speaker 7: came up to Morningtown to talk to some of those people. Now,
Speaker 7: one of them told us that there was a he
Speaker 7: grew up in the area of the weird mines, the
Speaker 7: area where the bodies were found, and there was a
Speaker 7: gentleman there by the name of Charlie Herron. This guy
Speaker 7: who was telling us this had been sent by He
Speaker 7: used to go to the Haren farm from Lloyd and
Speaker 7: Vilma to get eggs all the time. But his parents
Speaker 7: had told him don't go there when Charlie's there alone,
Speaker 7: because they were afraid of Charlie because he he was,
Speaker 7: I guess scary. He fought a lot considerably. He also
Speaker 7: apparently used to set fires in the neighborhood. And this
Speaker 7: guy told us that Charlie used to torture animals, and
Speaker 7: I asked him he meant by that, because you know
Speaker 7: that's a large spectrum torturing animals. Well, he said that
Speaker 7: Charlie used to pull the legs off cats. So the
Speaker 7: point that he said that, Richard and I kind of
Speaker 7: exchanged glances because that's pretty significant kinds of torture. And
Speaker 7: when we left there, you know, we thank When we
Speaker 7: left there, Richard said, well, let's go see Charlie. So
Speaker 7: we drove down the hill into Morgantown and talked to
Speaker 7: Charlie and Richard I was essentially a witness or someone
Speaker 7: standing there. I just stood there in his room, and
Speaker 7: Richard asked him some questions. And he had at this
Speaker 7: time of kind of a buncular manner about him when
Speaker 7: he was talking to people, and you know, kind of
Speaker 7: g shucks kind of thing. And at one point Charlie.
Speaker 7: He asked Charlie if he had any idea who might
Speaker 7: have done this, and Charlie started rattling off names, which
Speaker 7: was weird because we had talked to a lot of
Speaker 7: other people and everyone kind of reluctant, Lee would come
Speaker 7: up with one name. I always wondered about this guy,
Speaker 7: but Charlie had a whole list of names, and Richard
Speaker 7: thought that was odd and let it settle. And then
Speaker 7: a little while later he said, what kind of car
Speaker 7: did you drive? It? Back then, Charlie, and Charlie's his
Speaker 7: whole demeanor change just got really cold, and he said,
Speaker 7: what do you want to know that for? Richard said,
Speaker 7: I'm just nosy, I guess, and Charlie said that those
Speaker 7: years is going to get you hurt. We're done. And
Speaker 7: so that's how Charlie became of interest. That turned out
Speaker 7: Charlie was the uncle of the first suspect Eddie Frasher,
Speaker 7: So they lived in the same place. But the police
Speaker 7: back the state police back in nineteen seventy had no
Speaker 7: idea apparently that Charlie existed.
Speaker 6: Well, let he says, an opportunity to stop for a
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Speaker 6: Plus Now with the connection with Eddie Thresher and Charlie Herron,
Speaker 6: you also investigated the idea of about hacker and then
Speaker 6: research beheadings. What did you find it out about hacker
Speaker 6: and beheadings in the area.
Speaker 7: Well, that that initially background two thousand and eight or
Speaker 7: two thousand line. Hacker Okay, Hacker had on December. Do
Speaker 7: you want to talk about that, sir, I can talk
Speaker 7: about Hacker, Yeah, Okay.
Speaker 2: Hacker was originally from Brooklyn, New York, but his family
Speaker 2: migrated into the Montingelia Marin County area in West Virginia.
Speaker 2: And when Hacker was very small, he was actually working
Speaker 2: in the mines, which wasn't super uncommon, but he was.
Speaker 2: He was around when the Manoga mine disaster happened and
Speaker 2: there the explosion from that. From that that mine explosion,
Speaker 2: the people that were harmed were harmed viciously, I mean dismemberments.
Speaker 2: There were a lot of beheadings from the people that
Speaker 2: were on the surface. And he would have seen that
Speaker 2: at a very young age that I'm sure that would
Speaker 2: have impacted him very greatly. Jeff had done some research
Speaker 2: into just finding articles along that area where the train
Speaker 2: would go between mining camps between West Virginia and Pennsylvania
Speaker 2: or Ohio, and he had collected probably what like twenty
Speaker 2: five different articles where there were men's founds without heads.
Speaker 7: Yeahthing like that, nineteen twenty and nineteen fifty two, So
Speaker 7: that it was over a long period of time.
Speaker 2: And in nineteen fifty two is when Hacker was arrested
Speaker 2: for killing two people in a bar in Fairmont, his
Speaker 2: girlfriend and a man there who had stood up to
Speaker 2: him when he was trying to drag her out of
Speaker 2: the bar and she didn't want to go. He actually
Speaker 2: left the bar and returned with a gun and he
Speaker 2: shot them both. And he did some time, but he
Speaker 2: was let out of prison early because he got to government.
Speaker 2: But the governor gave him a pardon for his efforts
Speaker 2: in rescue miners, rescuing miners from another incident. And so
Speaker 2: when he was out of prison, do you remember the year?
Speaker 7: Just yeah, And he got the parton in nineteen sixty six.
Speaker 7: And also it's important to know back then the state
Speaker 7: prison where he was being held had its own mining operation.
Speaker 7: So Hacker was both a prisoner and one of the
Speaker 7: leaders in the mind when he did this rescue and
Speaker 7: then got the pardon. And now he has got questions.
Speaker 7: Now he's got a start. This is fun.
Speaker 2: Just go ahead.
Speaker 7: The capitations. Strangely, when I was reading searching that they
Speaker 7: stopped in nineteen fifty two, they're wanting more, and then
Speaker 7: they started back up in nineteen sixty six and that
Speaker 7: corresponded to when or nineteen sixty seven, and I corresponded
Speaker 7: to when Hacker was led out of prison, and they continued.
Speaker 7: There were two or three more and then married and
Speaker 7: Karen followed by a man, Herbert Coben for and Hacker
Speaker 7: was arrested for that incapplication.
Speaker 6: Let's talk about the book that you are writing, and
Speaker 6: at one point you realize that someone else is writing
Speaker 6: that book and you want to find out who that is,
Speaker 6: and you and Sarah eventually meet. Sarah tell us about
Speaker 6: this meeting.
Speaker 2: I was finally able to get a hold of them.
Speaker 2: I don't really know how Facebook works. I think it
Speaker 2: goes into your junk mail account or something. So it
Speaker 2: wasn't instant. It took a while, and I wasn't sure
Speaker 2: if I would ever be able to talk to jos
Speaker 2: about this, but he was very amenable. He said, yeah,
Speaker 2: let's have and dinner, we'll talk about the case. And
Speaker 2: so he brought this big, old like statue full of
Speaker 2: case files. And I realized that we had been talking
Speaker 2: for two hours and that wasn't merely enough, Like I
Speaker 2: wasn't going to be able to sit there and listen
Speaker 2: to everything that he had to say. And be able
Speaker 2: to absorb that. So at this point he asked me
Speaker 2: if I want to help him write the book, because
Speaker 2: in his mind I was already writing.
Speaker 6: A book, and what else in terms of this meeting,
Speaker 6: in terms of decision other than the book itself.
Speaker 7: Well, she and she typed up a she and another man,
Speaker 7: Kendalls Perkinson. I wanted to do a podcast, so we
Speaker 7: just ended up doing both.
Speaker 2: She's like, I wish you considered maybe bringing this to
Speaker 2: a larger audience and possibly doing a podcast. And I
Speaker 2: didn't even really listen to podcasts. I knew that some
Speaker 2: people were interested in them, but I was like, yeah, sure, whatever,
Speaker 2: I don't care. And then once he found out that
Speaker 2: I had talked to Jeff, he was like, oh, we
Speaker 2: have to get him to talk to us too, And
Speaker 2: so I was hoping that Jeff knew what a podcast
Speaker 2: was as well, and he was amenable to that. So
Speaker 2: I was like, all right, well, I guess we're going
Speaker 2: to do a podcast and we're going to do a book.
Speaker 2: And the podcast went really really well. Through word of Mouse,
Speaker 2: we expected it to sort of Kenness Day in the
Speaker 2: Morgantown area.
Speaker 6: Now with this research with the book, with the podcast.
Speaker 6: You talk about Jeff that one of the people that
Speaker 6: you were initially involved with, Sargeant Hall puts a veil
Speaker 6: up between you, so he thinks he has a different
Speaker 6: idea who killed Merret and Karen, and you have a
Speaker 6: completely different idea in your mind and your research with Sarah.
Speaker 6: Who emerges as the likely suspects in their murders and why.
Speaker 7: Well, I don't it's another I don't know if we
Speaker 7: want to give that away entirely, but it's another man
Speaker 7: who hasn't been mentioned so far at all. But he was,
Speaker 7: and in fact he was the one that I kind
Speaker 7: of he was my leading suspect when Sarah and I
Speaker 7: first met, and I had been gathering a lot of
Speaker 7: information about him and his life. He had been arrested
Speaker 7: in Florida and convicted for kidnapped, kidnapping a woman, holding
Speaker 7: her captives and draining her blood, draining and drinking her blood.
Speaker 7: She had escaped for three days, and she had escaped
Speaker 7: and brought the police. Now, police led by a man
Speaker 7: named Bob Letherreu, who we've talked with extensively believed that
Speaker 7: or change to believe that this man had killed at
Speaker 7: least six other women, maybe as many as twenty five
Speaker 7: or thirty, but they found pretty good evidence for six
Speaker 7: that could tie him to six deaths. They never found
Speaker 7: anything that definitively pinned any of those on him enough
Speaker 7: to be able to bring charges. But his sister was
Speaker 7: a freshman at WU at the time. He had been
Speaker 7: born in Clarksburg, he grew up until he was about eleven,
Speaker 7: and then his family moved to Upper Saint Clair, Pennsylvania,
Speaker 7: which is about forty minutes north of here, in north
Speaker 7: of Moregontown. And his sister, like I said, was a
Speaker 7: freshman at WU in nineteen seventy, the same year that
Speaker 7: Merrit and Tiern were freshmen, and his older brother had
Speaker 7: graduated from w Med School. So there were lots oft
Speaker 7: and we found a lot more circumstantial evidence that he
Speaker 7: was the one who did it. Sarah is not convinced
Speaker 7: that he is because we couldn't find I think because
Speaker 7: we couldn't find she didn't well, I'll let her go
Speaker 7: into that, but we couldn't find anything to definitively say
Speaker 7: that he had been the one who killed Merret and Careen.
Speaker 6: Dan.
Speaker 2: I will just say that I'm agnostic at this point,
Speaker 2: Like I don't feel that we have anything outside of
Speaker 2: circumstantial evidence. Jeff makes a strong case, but if we
Speaker 2: find that a connection that's just irrefutable, then I'll be
Speaker 2: on on team Jet.
Speaker 6: Charlie Herron and and Eddie Thrasher. Why were they ruled out?
Speaker 7: Yeah? They I think I think Eddie's handwriting didn't match uh,
Speaker 7: and that was easily were ruled out. But Eddie left
Speaker 7: town the day before the girl's bodies were found. He
Speaker 7: moved away from Morgantown and except for visits, never came back.
Speaker 7: Charlie left later that summer and moved in with some
Speaker 7: Amish with a Honist community in Pennsylvania. So that's suspicious.
Speaker 7: And Eddie had also He had been working at Stirling
Speaker 7: Fasted on the seventeenth, eighteenth, and nineteenth of January, and
Speaker 7: he had called in sick on the eighteenth, the day
Speaker 7: the girls disappeared. In the nineteenth he was not at work.
Speaker 6: Interesting, when did the idea for this book start and
Speaker 6: when did it complete? When is it released? And just
Speaker 6: tell us about the status of the podcast.
Speaker 7: The book was released in early October, first week of October,
Speaker 7: and I was doing pretty well and we sold out
Speaker 7: of the first printing and Moore's being run.
Speaker 6: Jeff tell us this a little bit about the podcast, sorry, Sarah.
Speaker 7: Okay, well, the podcast had a lot of listeners and
Speaker 7: was received very well, had I think almost all five
Speaker 7: star reviews, and eventually came the attention of the group
Speaker 7: in Los Angeles who wanted to do a larger series,
Speaker 7: which was also part of Sarah and Kendall's plan because
Speaker 7: by this time they had done another story which was
Speaker 7: said it nearby here in Frostburg and Cumberland, and they
Speaker 7: started a series called Applatch in my Syria and apparently
Speaker 7: been doing very well. But Sarah could address that much
Speaker 7: more than me.
Speaker 6: Let's just let the audience know about where they might
Speaker 6: be able to take a look at this book and
Speaker 6: where they could find this podcast.
Speaker 7: Okay, Well, we have a website called co Ed Murders
Speaker 7: dot com co OE D n U R D E
Speaker 7: R s allovercase dot com and you can find links
Speaker 7: to both the podcast and you know, the book for
Speaker 7: ordering the book from Amazon, Barnes and Noble and all
Speaker 7: the stander retailers, and obviously the podcast you can download
Speaker 7: or hook up to at anytime, and it's it's a
Speaker 7: basically on every podcast platform.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, thank you so much, Thank you so much for
Speaker 6: coming on, Sarah, James mcgloughlin and Jeff Fuller, the w
Speaker 6: VU co ed murders who killed Merit and Karen, thank
Speaker 6: you very much for this interview and you both have
Speaker 6: a great evening.
Speaker 7: Thank you good night.
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