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Speaker 1: Any Protestants who would like to call in any dispensationalists,

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Christian Zionists. You know the drill. It's all on the

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table tonight, geopolitics as well, any of it. You bring

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it up. It's all good. Let's hash it out. I

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don't think we're gonna get me a Roman klicks, though.

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A couple of things that stood out today that I

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think are really again just more kill shots. If we

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look at the texts from the Old Testament to the

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New Testament, and a kind of a sample run here

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of texts that relates to what divine Revelation says about

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those outside the faith or those with another religion, another God,

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another faith. And the reason this is important is that

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what's being missed in a lot of this discussion is

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the nature of worship. We can only worship God the

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way that God lays it down if we don't worship

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God the way that He lays down. For example, God

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always requires some notion of sacrificial offering as part of

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his worship, an altar. Abraham Moses, all the religion during

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this time period has an altar. According to Hebrews thirteen,

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Christianity also has this altar. When we look at the

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way that the early Church worshiped. It was liturgical and

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always with an altar. When Roman Catholics argue against Protestants,

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they argue that Protestant worship isn't even really worship. It's

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fake and gray, precisely because they don't even have an offering.

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It's a memorial, a memorates, a remembrance service. And since

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it's not an actual, real eucharistic sacrifice with an all,

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it is no longer the worship of God proper to God.

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And that's the only worship that God accepts, the worship

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that He lays down. And that's why it's very powerful,

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for example, to talk about Leviticus, when we go to

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Leviticus ten and Native and Abai who offer up in

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their censor strange fire that was not commanded, and as

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a result of this profane worship, worship being done in

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the way that God never said to do it, it

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ends up being something that kills. In the Book of Corinthians,

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Paul says a very similar thing that if you eat

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and drink unworthily, you can also die. That's how serious

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worship is. Thus, when we come to the text that

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say like Nostratate three in Limigentium sixteen, that Muslims worship

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and adore God. It is missing the entire purpose of

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what Christian theology has always said, Biblical theology Patristic theology.

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I will argue that Rome departs precisely by thinking that

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Islam in some way offers worship to God. Now they

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tried to qualify this in the debate. Most of the

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Roman Catholics aren't even qualifying, but they try to say, well,

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we don't know necessarily if God accepts it. But it's

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still them worshiping in terms of some referent the One

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True God. But the whole reason that this is an

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issue again is because Vatican two gives the indifferentist position,

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the ecumenist position that now there is a salviafic role

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according to Lemgentium sixteen present in Islam. That's an ambiguous phrase.

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We're not exactly sure what it means when it says Muslims,

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the plan of salvation includes Muslims. Well, I mean, the

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plan of salvation includes everyone. Everybody's open to being saved,

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So why would you even say the plan of salvation

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includes Muslims. Is there somebody who thought that Muslims can't

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be converted or saved, and it is kind of crazy,

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never heard of that. So when lumin Gentm sixteen says

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the Plan of Salvation includes Muslims, it begins by saying

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something even sillier. The Plan of Salvation includes those that

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acknowledge a creator. Okay, I mean, like, yeah, pretty much

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everybody's saved acknowledges a creator, So we can't read it

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in that sense. So the Plan of Salvation is in

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the context of clearly people who do not believe in

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the Messiah or the Trinity. Well that's pretty odd because,

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as we saw in last Night's dream, Roman calic theology

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and Denzinger states that trinity and incarnation are necessary as

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professions of faith on the part of Muslims before being baptized,

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and that's the minimum to have the faith. So in

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order to worship properly, you also must have the faith.

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You do not worship God properly in any accepted way

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by God or in any real legitimate sense without doing

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it God's way and without confessing the faith. There aren't

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many faiths. There's not an Abrahamic faith, that is, all

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of the so called monotheistic religions because as we saw

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there aren't three monotheistic religions. There are probably at least

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ten that we listed, the Perennialus, the Seksts, sum Zoroastrians,

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Theistic Satanists, perhaps Marcianites, perhaps Hinotheism, the Jrus, the Shakti Hindus,

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the Cawdai Buddhists, the Bahai faith are all monotheistic. So

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the Old Testament revelation being of the Trinity and of

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the Sun is absolutely crucial to this debate because it

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shows not just that the Old Testament God is not

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some bare generic Unitarian deity, but also that whatever revelation

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comes after the Old Testament has to be consistent with

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that and thus has to be trinitarian. The God referenced

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is the Trinity. And that's enough to refute the premise

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that Trent Doherty had that all I have to do

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is say that Muhammad is getting his idea of God

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from Jewish Old Testament revelation. Well, that's assuming that quote

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God is just the Unitarian reference of a single simple deity.

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But that's not the reference of God in the Old Testament.

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And hence why I went into great details talking about Theophanes.

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But let's look at a few passages that tell us

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very clearly how we should view this. The gods of

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the nations are devils, and I included the due Riems

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Bible because that's the traditional Calvic interpretation Psalm ninety five.

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The gods of the nations are devils. Do not go

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after other gods Dunami thirteen and Deuteronomy eighteen. Well but

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now wait a minute. What if it's a different faith

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and a Unitarian deity, Well, that would be another god.

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The Islamic God is premised on you reject to worship him.

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You must explicitly reject the Trinity, or else you are

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not worshiping Allah. So it is required that you reject

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the Trinity. And we read that in the Qur'an last

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night it specifically says stop saying Trinity, do not call

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the Son divine. And so thus in Deuteronomi thirteen to

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Dorougharmy eighteen, the prohibitions presuppose that if you go to

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another deity by another name, and again, Allah is not Father,

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so it's not even. It's not even. Jews have a

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better argument that it's the same quote God or same

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reference than Muslims, because at least Jews reference Yahweh as Father.

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Muslims do not. They explicitly take the notion of God

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as Father and say that is not our God. Thus,

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why the analogy to Clark, Kent and Superman fails is

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because the analogy presupposes not having the knowledge of who

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the real identity is. In the case of Islam, the

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Muslims do explicitly have the knowledge of the Christian deity

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and of Christ, and they explicitly reject that. Paul says,

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the things that Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and

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not to God. Muslims and Protestants do not believe in sacrifice.

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So if God has always required sacrifice, on that grounds,

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I could argue that worship that has sacrificed aka Paganism,

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is closer to Christianity than Islam or Protestanism, both of

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which reject sacrifice, and in fact, Islam more explicitly rejects

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sacrifice than even Protestants do, because at least Protestants admit

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that Jesus is a sacrifice on the cross. There's just

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nothing else that's a sacrifice other than some moral sense

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in which you give up your own life to Christ.

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But the worship of God himself which is always at

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an altar that is sacrificial, is rejected by Islam. And

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so if that's the means by which God is worshiped,

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if you reject an altar and a sacrifice, you do

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not worship that God. The God of the Bible always

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has an altar and always has a sacrifice. Abraham built

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an altar and called upon the name of Yahweh, and

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Muslims say, our God does not do that. We do

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not worship that God. There you go, That's all you need. Now.

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Notice in Paul's case, in one Grinans ten twenty, notice

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how this is the opposite of what even Roman Catholics

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are saying, some of them that even if you sacrifice

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to a demon, you can still be worshiping the Trinity.

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Many of them have said that. But Paul says, the

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things that you sacrifice to a demon are therefore not

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to the God of the Bible. Therefore you are not

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worshiping the God of the Bible. We saw the medieval

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papists and the popes said many times over that Mohammedans

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worship devils and worship all kinds of nonsense. They revere

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and practice evil superstitions. They tried to say that I

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made up the quote. I didn't make up the quote.

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It's literally sourced right here, and my slides in the debate.

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Let's take a look the slides right there. What does

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the first slide say, medieval source book for the them?

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What's medieval source book for them? Oh, it's the entire speech,

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according to full care of Chartrey. Now they're saying, ah,

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but this might not be authentic. Okay. I gave you

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nine examples from medieval papal councils. So even if this

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one is perhaps inauthentic, all I have to do is

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go down to the fifteenth acimentical Council, which none of

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them has said is inauthentic. This is Decree twenty five.

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It is an insult to the Holy Name and the

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disgrace of the Christian faith that the world subject to

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Christian princes, where Saracens live, sometimes apart and sometimes intermingled,

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that Saracen priests, which are commonly called Zabazala in their

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temples and moss in which the Saracens meet to adore

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the infidel Mohammed. In these idiots' minds, if you are

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adoring the Infidel Mohammed, and by the way, Islam gives

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Muhammed a greater place pretty much than Christ. Then you're

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not worshiping, adoring the one true God. It is not

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possible to worship and love God and Mohammad, the God

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of the Bible. Why it's a little thing called idolatry.

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I don't know if you've heard of this, but idolatry

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is not just a physical object that you bow down to,

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like a statue of Khalima or the thug Ee cult.

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Idolatry is anything that you create that is not the

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uncreated God. And to not just focus your time and

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energy on that false conception that's a physical statue or object.

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That's not the only type of idolatry you can have.

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As the Fathers say, heretical ideolotry, that is, your ideas

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can also become an idol And this is what we

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call heresy. Heresy is when a person chooses the doctrine

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that they want, picks and choose and not the totality

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divine revelation of what the Church teaches. They pick and

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choose and create a delusion, a false mental conception that

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is not actually God and the idea then becomes for

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every heretic an idol, and thus prevents them from honoring

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and worshiping and connecting to in a real grace filled pipeline,

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the true God. It is cut off. It is not

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hitting the mark. So to correct their false analogy, a

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better analogy would be, rather than the Clark Kent nonsense superman,

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imagine Bill Cosby as a comedian, and Bill Cosby is

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thoughts to be perhaps let me put this on a

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different page, perhaps one of the funniest men. So we're

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gonna say, for the sake of our amill. Okay, Bill

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Cosby is one of the funniest men. Let's say it's

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nineteen I don't know, nineteen seventy eight or something. Oh

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I'm not saying I think he is. This is just

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a dumb analogy. Bill Cosby is the funniest man around.

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We honor Bill Cosby as the great comedian. However, a

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group of cunning marketing and sales pitchmen have come up

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with an idea that it's not actually Bill Cosby that's

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the real funny man. There's Charlie Cosby, who is Bill

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Cosby's unknown cousin who happens to look almost just like

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Bill Cosby. And so these clever marketing con men set

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up and devised a completely staged and fake comedy show

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using pictures of Bill Cosby, and they sell out a

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giant theater at Auditorium for Charlie Cosby, the real comedy master,

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and it sold a ticket hundred dollars a ticket, a

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giant stadium, sold out. And then it turns out it

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was a scam. It turns out Charlie Cosby doesn't exist.

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He's not actually a real thing. Well it looked real.

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There was all the similar ideas and attributes to Bill Cosby.

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Look there's a picture, and it's got Bill Cosby's nose,

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it's got his cigar, it's got his feeble fobbles, evil

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zobble going on, it's got it all. But they just

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took Bill Cosby's picture, called it Charlie Cosby me. And

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maybe they even played a few clips from Bill Cosby.

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And so this is really stuff that Charlie Cosby wrote

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and Bill took it. Bill is not who you want.

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You want the tickets to Charlie because he's the real

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funny man. But then when you show up you find

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out there's no Charlie Cosby. The only authentic one was

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actually Bill the whole time, And so you got duped

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by Conman who gave you a false conception, an ideologry,

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an idea conception that was actually a delusion. So that's

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the real analogy that's appropriate to how the false conception

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cancels out worship. And that's what they're not understanding because

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in much of the Roman Catholic world, because they're not Orthodox,

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they don't understand that worship and the faith is not

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an assent to a bunch of propositions. In Roman Catholic theology,

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you can lose charity or the love of God and

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maintain the faith. So when you're in a state of

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mortal sin, you have lost the charity of God, the

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love of God. You're in a state of damnation, and

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the only way out of that is to go to confession,

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receive and receive absolution to be restored to a state

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of grace. But if you commit mortal sin, you still

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perhaps have the faith, but you've lost charity. This is

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Aquinas talks about this in the Simi very Clear, And thus,

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in that notion, you could be Catholic, be believe the faith,

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worship God, but you don't have the charity that gets

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you to the state of grace. And how is that well?

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Because for them, when they talk about the faith, most

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of the time, many times they mean the individual's assent

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to the propositions of the magisterium, and an intellectual assent.

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That's what they mean. For the Orthodox, we do not

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divide these things as if it really matters or means

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anything that you worship God in a loveless state. For us,

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that doesn't even make sense. If you're doing that, the

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worship is really in vain. And so we have the

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notion of the heart and they do not. This is

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a key point. So when we go to Romans one,

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for example, and we read what Paul says about the

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pagan world and the hearts of the pagan world, a

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Roman Catholk believes this is talking about the intellect. They

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think that natural theology is what's here, because the Pagans

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didn't do their syllogisms correctly. Had they done the syllogisms correctly,

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they would have come to the absolutely simple Unitarian monad

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and then perhaps down the road we can tack on

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trinity and person of Christ. But Paul says that the

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wrath of God has revealed against all ungodliness and righteousness

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of men who seek it out with the rational faculties. No,

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no suppress the truth. So the whole passage actually talking

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about the pagan world not reasoning properly at all, and

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in doing even worse, suppressing the truth. Because what may

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be known of God is within them. For God has

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revealed and shown it to them. Did he show himself

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in an intellectual way to all the Pagans? Are you

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sure about that? Does that really make sense? Or is

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Paul saying that innately? In the inner man it is

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evident that there is a true God. But did they

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know or understand this true God? Well, Paul says, man

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knew God, but did not glorify him as God. They

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were not thankful to God. They became futile in vain

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in their thoughts and their hearts, not their intellect. Remember,

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Roman Catholics just think that there's body and soul, and

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soul is primarily or almost essentially intellect for them. So

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if you worship God, Roman Catholics might admit there's a

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bodily sense in terms of, like, you know, doing prostrations

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or a kneeling at the altar, on the kneelers or whatever,

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and then eating the Eucharist. That's worshiping, okay. But the

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only other way that you could worship with your heart

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is your inner intellectual intellectus. Because you're a binary, you'r

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a duality. In the Calvil view, there is no noose

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or heart doctrine. But we are saying with Paul, their

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hearts were darkened, their no etic faculty was darkened. Remember,

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Romancalolics don't have this doctrine at all. This is a

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key element to why they don't understand why we would

288
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never say that these people worship and love and adore

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the One True God. It's not possible for them to

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do so in this darkness. And that's exactly what Pelmus

291
00:21:33,799 --> 00:21:36,759
argues in book one of the Triads. The entire first

292
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triad is about the futility of Pagan Greek Hellenic knowledge,

293
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and he says, Plato and Aristotle, guess what if they

294
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got a couple of things right about God? It didn't

295
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profit them. It was worthless demonic knowledge because every heresy

296
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which in any way perverts the truth about God ends

297
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up giving you a false another God for the things

298
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that gentiles sacrificed they sacrificed to the Trinity secretly. No,

299
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he doesn't say that. He says to demons, and he says,

300
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and not to the Trinity. See that one coty is

301
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ten twenty. Pagans and gentiles sacrifice to demons, and if

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you do it to a demon, it's not to God.

303
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The exact opposite of what Trent argued in the debate,

304
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that you can worship a demon and the trying God

305
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at the same time. And then he lied about saying that,

306
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and people called him out on that, by the way,

307
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because two minutes later he said I never said that.

308
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He did say that. Now, notice, and this is I

309
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think one of the strongest points here. Paul says that

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professing to be wise, this is pagan wisdom. They became fools, Aristotle,

311
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Plato became fools. Pelma says, why because they exchanged the

312
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God of glory, the glory of the True God, for

313
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worshiping and serving the creature. Now watch this, So God

314
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gave them up to their evil lusts and hence the

315
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wickedness of the pagan world to dishonor their bodies. Who

316
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exchanged the truth of God and worshiped and served the

317
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One True God, accidentally still no worshiped and served the

318
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creature rather than the Creator. Now, what did the popes

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in the Middle Ages call Islam pagan, infidel, faithless, demonic idolatrists.

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Their public worship must be forbidden right there in the

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Council the fifteenth Documentical Council antichrist according to Ennocon the

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third and quea mayor. Now would that being the case,

323
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that's consistent with Paul even though they're even though they're popes,

324
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because Islam's God is literally a pagan deity, but it's

325
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got a few attributes in common with ours. So what

326
00:24:53,079 --> 00:25:00,279
there is no such thing as orthodox percent were ship

327
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:05,200
of God. I believe in the Trinity and all those things.

328
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I don't believe God is omnipotent. When I say that,

329
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do I have the same deity? No, even if you've

330
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got all the other attributes, once you deny omnipotence, it's

331
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no longer the same God. If I deny that God

332
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is omnipresent, then he becomes spatially limited. That's not an

333
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:34,759
uncreated God, it's a different one. This is why every heresy,

334
00:25:34,799 --> 00:25:38,559
according to the Church Fathers, separates you from the Church.

335
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You cannot be a heretic and in the mystical Body

336
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,039
of Christ at the same time. And guess what. Let

337
00:25:45,079 --> 00:25:46,839
me show you what the Roman Kelly Church taught about

338
00:25:46,839 --> 00:25:51,319
that which again refutes the Islamic nonsense that they're viewing

339
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,599
past the twelfths in cyclical mystical Body Mystici corporus the

340
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Body of Christ in what nineteen forget when he wrote this,

341
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:18,880
maybe it's at the bottom, it's not that old of

342
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:27,960
an encyclical nineteen forty three. Let's look at the Catholic

343
00:26:28,039 --> 00:26:44,400
ecclesiology at this time. Actually, only those are to be

344
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included in the members of Christ who have been baptized

345
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and professed the true faith and have not been so

346
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unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the

347
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Body or have been excluded by legitimate authority for grave

348
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faults committed. So, in other words, if you do not

349
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:10,319
accept the full true faith of the papal profession, then

350
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:14,440
you are separated, and you are not a member of

351
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the body, the mystical body. That is the purpose of

352
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,839
this encyclical. And then we're going to look at Satist

353
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call neut I'm saying a very similar idea. The church

354
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,799
founded on these principles, mindful of her office, has done

355
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,839
nothing with greater zeal and endeavor than she has displayed

356
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in guarding the integrity of the faith. Hence she regarded

357
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:51,039
as rebels and expelled from the ranks all that held

358
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any belief on any point of doctrine contrary to her

359
00:27:57,279 --> 00:28:06,400
own expel and thus not worshiping God. The Aryans, the Muslims,

360
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:12,279
or Arians, Montanous Novations, Cordadessinians, Utichians, they all reject Catholic doctrine,

361
00:28:12,839 --> 00:28:16,519
but they abandon only a portion of it, a Tertian

362
00:28:16,799 --> 00:28:19,759
portion of it. Who does not know that they were

363
00:28:19,799 --> 00:28:22,839
declared banished, heretics and banished from the bosom of the church.

364
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So to hold one doctrine for the next paragraph. The

365
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,079
practice of the Catholic Church has always been, as has

366
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shown in the Animis teaching its fathers, that whoever would

367
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hold that they were wont to hold us outside the

368
00:28:44,279 --> 00:28:47,440
Catholic communion alien to the Church. So are you worshiping

369
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if you're outside the Catholic community and the Catholic God.

370
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,039
Whoever would recede in the least degree from any of

371
00:28:54,079 --> 00:28:58,920
her magisterial doctrines. That's Leo the thirteenth. So if you

372
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:08,200
reject one Catholic dogma, you are no longer Catholic. Do

373
00:29:08,359 --> 00:29:14,319
Muslims reject any Catholic doctrine? Oh, they reject the essentials,

374
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and so they cannot be part of the mystical Body,

375
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,960
which is the only means of salvation and the only

376
00:29:22,319 --> 00:29:27,160
place in which God accepts his worship, the only acceptable

377
00:29:27,279 --> 00:29:32,799
venue of worship according to this traditional Catholic mindset. And

378
00:29:32,839 --> 00:29:35,400
guess what. In the Orthodox Church we would agree and

379
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,759
we still uphold the actual I mean, it's not the

380
00:29:38,799 --> 00:29:42,119
papal church, but the basic idea of a closed communion

381
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:51,400
church is right there. Now we don't agree that it's

382
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,039
the papal sect, but we would say, yes, this proposition

383
00:29:54,119 --> 00:29:57,640
is actually true outside the Orthodox Catholic Church. If you

384
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,160
reject any of the dogmas of the church. I don't

385
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:05,000
believe in baptismal regeneration, you're not an Orthodox person anymore.

386
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,519
You've rejected a teaching of the creed. I don't believe

387
00:30:09,559 --> 00:30:13,480
in the real presence in the Eucharist. I believe everything else.

388
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Though you're no longer Orthodox. It only takes one heresy,

389
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:25,799
one obstinate rejection, to exclude you from the faith and

390
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,960
the communion, and the communion is the members with God.

391
00:30:30,359 --> 00:30:33,599
Outside of the communion, there is not communion with God.

392
00:30:35,119 --> 00:30:38,200
God's grace can be out there and pulls people to

393
00:30:38,279 --> 00:30:43,319
the church, but the worship of God is not happening

394
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:48,960
apart from an altar. And even the Roman Catholics shoot

395
00:30:49,039 --> 00:30:52,079
themselves in the foot and own themselves on this point

396
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,279
every time they debate a Protestant, because they don't even

397
00:30:55,319 --> 00:31:01,720
know that Islam is even more anti sacrificial than Protestants.

398
00:31:02,519 --> 00:31:07,599
Protestants believe in one sacrifice, the person of Christ at

399
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:15,039
the Cross. Muslims believe in no sacrifices, no alters, thus

400
00:31:15,599 --> 00:31:19,599
no worship of God. All the way back to Cain

401
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:28,400
and Able, God required sacrificial worship as his worship. If

402
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,000
you don't have that, you don't have worship of God.

403
00:31:32,559 --> 00:31:37,599
So the very idea that hasn't even been discussed yet

404
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:42,720
about why this is so wrong is the mistaken Roman

405
00:31:42,799 --> 00:31:48,839
Catholic intellectualism that worshiping God is assenting to propositions of

406
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,000
the magisterium. That's not the worship of God. That's how

407
00:31:52,039 --> 00:31:56,359
they can say Muslims agree with us on proposition one

408
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,920
that God is omnipotent number two, that God is so

409
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:06,319
that God has won. That's not worship, that's assenting mentally

410
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:14,480
to propositions. Worship and adoration is different. That only happens

411
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:24,279
at an altar. So they don't even know how you

412
00:32:24,359 --> 00:32:27,880
worship God. That's why they don't even know that it's

413
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,839
the Angel of the Lord, that is Jesus. Look at

414
00:32:31,839 --> 00:32:35,400
what this Roman Catholic said yesterday as a test case example,

415
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:43,279
one of the larger Catholic profiles says, did God reveal

416
00:32:43,359 --> 00:32:46,680
himself as a Trinity to Abraham Catholic?

417
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 2: Guy?

418
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:57,359
Speaker 1: No, every Orthodox person knows with Saint Maximus the Confessor

419
00:33:00,119 --> 00:33:03,359
what the answer to this is, and every person who's

420
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,079
heard any debates what. The Muslims knows the answer to this,

421
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,559
and the heretic sam Shamun himself knows this because he

422
00:33:12,759 --> 00:33:15,240
argued it for so long, and now he wants to

423
00:33:15,359 --> 00:33:19,319
join ranks with this nonsense and defend this idiocy, which

424
00:33:19,359 --> 00:33:26,119
is just sad. Max Maximus the Confessor said, Abraham was

425
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,640
taught and worshiped the Trinity. By the way, this is

426
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,319
a doctor in the Romanchellic Church. Okay, God appeared to Abraham,

427
00:33:32,359 --> 00:33:35,079
who was perfect in knowledge, and already possessed an intellect

428
00:33:35,119 --> 00:33:39,799
completely beyond matter and figurations. He God taught Abraham that

429
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,319
the immaterial principle of the trinity, and here's in the

430
00:33:42,319 --> 00:33:45,359
principle of its unity. And for this reason God appeared

431
00:33:45,359 --> 00:33:47,720
to him as three and spoke to him as one.

432
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,319
Why is that because in Genesis eighteen, as we saw

433
00:33:51,359 --> 00:33:56,119
even in the masoretic text, we saw this yesterday. Yahweh

434
00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:02,319
Jehovah appeared to Abraham the planes of Mamarra, and Abraham

435
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:09,320
sat up and noticed the Texas intentionally telling you about

436
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:17,000
what he does in terms of his eyes, and Abraham

437
00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:20,800
lifted up. It could have just said Abraham stood up

438
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,199
and talked to the Lord. It says Abraham lifted up

439
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:32,360
what his eyes his eyes. In other words, Abraham is

440
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:38,519
visually seeing the logos. This is a scandal to the

441
00:34:38,599 --> 00:34:42,599
Roman Catholics and to the tomuss They literally sit here

442
00:34:42,639 --> 00:34:45,920
and tell you, just like Muslims and just like Arians,

443
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:54,519
that it's not possible for God to be seen. But

444
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,639
even Jews ad meant that it's hard for them to

445
00:34:58,679 --> 00:35:01,599
make sense of this. Even the Jews admit it might

446
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:06,079
actually be a second principle, or even God himself somehow.

447
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:11,199
We saw that in the Jewish Encyclopedia yesterday on the Chicaina,

448
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,519
the Jews admit, I don't know, we don't know what

449
00:35:14,559 --> 00:35:16,800
to do with this glory cloud that is called glory.

450
00:35:17,519 --> 00:35:21,760
Perhaps it is God somehow, others other rabbis, No, that's

451
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,679
not possible. God can't do that exactly, just like the Muslims,

452
00:35:24,679 --> 00:35:27,559
and just like the Jews. So the monad of the Muslims, Christians,

453
00:35:27,599 --> 00:35:30,880
and Jews, the Muslims, Catholics and Jews actually probably is

454
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:35,079
the same God. He's called Satan, the one that steals,

455
00:35:35,159 --> 00:35:37,920
kills and destroys. Allah is the greatest of deceivers in

456
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,559
the Qur'an. And this is who the Roman Catholics think.

457
00:35:40,599 --> 00:35:42,679
They're worsing, the same god as that. This is how

458
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,599
dumb these people are. One thing that would really help

459
00:35:45,639 --> 00:35:49,239
them was to actually actually know Islam. Now Trent claimed

460
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:54,360
he's an expert on Islam. Well, he would know then

461
00:35:54,519 --> 00:35:59,280
that Islam's unitarianism doesn't match up to the Old Testament.

462
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,800
Oh but wait a minute, we didn't even know that Jesus,

463
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,719
the first century rabbi, is the same subject as the

464
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,599
Angel of the Lord and the God of the Old Testament.

465
00:36:09,679 --> 00:36:11,360
He wasn't even aware of that. And I'm getting a

466
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:15,840
lot of messages, many comments, hundreds and hundreds of comments.

467
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:23,440
People are saying this issue of the Roman Catholics not

468
00:36:23,519 --> 00:36:26,880
believing that it's the Theophanes that are Christ and that

469
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,000
the real Theophanies in the Old Testament, and then it's

470
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,639
the Trinity in the Old Testament is the very thing

471
00:36:31,679 --> 00:36:34,360
that's making them question and leave. We had a traditional

472
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:38,960
Catholic show up today at our liturgy over now he's

473
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,679
already coming into the church, but he was saying that

474
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,519
this just just too much to say that the Muslims

475
00:36:45,559 --> 00:36:47,800
and Catholics worship the same God. He said, that's it,

476
00:36:48,039 --> 00:36:50,000
He's done. This is a turning point for a lot

477
00:36:50,039 --> 00:36:52,559
of these people. Now I'm not saying all the track

478
00:36:52,599 --> 00:36:55,039
cats they're got, they're not, but they're all melting.

479
00:36:55,039 --> 00:36:55,159
Speaker 2: Now.

480
00:36:55,199 --> 00:36:58,039
Speaker 1: We're getting to see it in lifetime, the meltdowns. They're

481
00:36:58,079 --> 00:37:03,880
losing it in lifetime because all of this is coming

482
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,239
to the fore.

483
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:06,639
Speaker 2: Now.

484
00:37:06,679 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 1: There's some corrupt people in the Orthodox world, for sure,

485
00:37:10,639 --> 00:37:15,280
but I just want to remind you of the lusty

486
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,920
eyes of supposedly tried Pope Benedict when the openly gay

487
00:37:20,039 --> 00:37:25,039
acrobats performed for him, because what if Paul saying, Romans won.

488
00:37:26,079 --> 00:37:29,920
If you go in this direction, you get given up

489
00:37:30,079 --> 00:37:34,440
to vile, disgusting things. And a lot of these Roman

490
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:39,280
Catholics are actually gay, They're actually in this domain. Why

491
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,119
do you think they're Roman Catholic? This is one of

492
00:37:42,159 --> 00:37:44,440
the key points that Father Moses said when he first

493
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:49,360
made his first videos. Well, they're just partaking of the

494
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:56,880
spirit of their big daddy, cheering on actual gay and

495
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,199
this is an actual this is a gay truth. I'll

496
00:38:00,199 --> 00:38:13,519
show you that the proof. Look at watch out. Benedict

497
00:38:13,519 --> 00:39:10,960
looks at the gay dudes and then they beckon to him.

498
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:19,599
The gay dudes all beckon to the Holy Father, who, yeah,

499
00:39:19,599 --> 00:39:29,679
they're gay dudes. Dawyer hasn't proven that they're actually gay. There,

500
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:31,840
you can look up the you go look it up

501
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:33,559
on your own. I'm not gonna go to a bunch

502
00:39:33,599 --> 00:39:36,800
of damn gay links for all you gay skeptics. You

503
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:38,400
can go look that up on your own. You probably

504
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,360
already got it saved in your bookmarks. Anyway. A lot

505
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:52,039
of your Roman Catholics. So now you say, why you

506
00:39:52,119 --> 00:39:54,440
talk about gay stuff that no one has everything to

507
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,000
do with it, because what we read in Romans won

508
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:03,639
about the gay stuff is a sign of an idolatrous

509
00:40:03,679 --> 00:40:11,039
reprobate mind. If you're an idolator, do you worship love

510
00:40:11,039 --> 00:40:14,320
and adore the True God? No, it's not possible. They're

511
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:25,559
mutually exclusive because idolatry is specifically actual worship of something

512
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:29,719
other than God. And one of the signs of this

513
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:38,599
is this kind of wickedness. It's like Father Moses said, like, yes,

514
00:40:38,639 --> 00:40:40,880
we all have vices, we all struggle with things, but

515
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:49,239
certain vices become evidence of another faith, another deity. And

516
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:59,079
these are the examples of that. And I'm talking about

517
00:41:00,199 --> 00:41:02,280
just talking about people with a vice that struggle and

518
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,679
are trying to go the liturgy and trying to do better.

519
00:41:05,159 --> 00:41:13,800
I'm talking about the corrupt pdf, blackmail, satanic element throughout

520
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:18,239
the Vatican and the widespread gay priesthood in the Roman

521
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:22,119
Callolic Church. That's what I'm talking about. That is a

522
00:41:22,159 --> 00:41:30,559
sign for everyone that yes there could be corruption, Yes

523
00:41:30,559 --> 00:41:33,679
there's bad Orthodox bishops and priests, but when you have

524
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:44,079
this widespread contamination, it doesn't speak to persecution. It speaks

525
00:41:44,119 --> 00:41:51,599
to curse persecution. So I don't think Roman Catholics are grasping,

526
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,559
and they don't because they don't see it as they

527
00:41:54,559 --> 00:41:58,559
see it as an intellectual problem. Everyone's failing to do

528
00:41:58,639 --> 00:42:02,920
their syllogisms properly. And if only Aristotle had reasoned properly,

529
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:07,039
if only we No, No, it's a spiritual problem. And

530
00:42:07,039 --> 00:42:23,079
that's what they don't understand. It's a delusion of idolatry.

531
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:27,679
Are we going to open up in a second? I

532
00:42:27,679 --> 00:42:32,599
think maybe one or two more points. Again, I'm more

533
00:42:32,679 --> 00:42:34,519
and more seeing as I laid in the bed last

534
00:42:34,599 --> 00:42:40,239
night thinking about this and thinking about scripture, the Theophanes

535
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,800
and the Old Testament are the key to all of this.

536
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,920
In fact, I was thinking it might even be beneficial

537
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:53,159
for all apologetics, except for maybe atheists, to have an

538
00:42:53,320 --> 00:43:00,199
entire apologetic focused on demonstrating that the Torah and the

539
00:43:00,199 --> 00:43:11,239
prophets and the writings teach the Trinity in Christ. Because

540
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:16,920
if that's true Roman Catholicism, is it false too, because

541
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:21,000
it means natural theology and the Unitarian presuppositions of the

542
00:43:21,039 --> 00:43:23,840
Old Testament God and Abraham worshiping a unity God, a

543
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:28,960
unitarian generic deity. If that's false, guess what the Abrahamic

544
00:43:29,039 --> 00:43:32,639
faith myth is false? There is no Abrahamic faith shared

545
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:37,320
between Muslims, Christians and Jews. This is premised on that.

546
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:42,559
And if that's not true, all this false. And this

547
00:43:42,639 --> 00:43:46,199
is what we're beginning to see. But for most people

548
00:43:46,199 --> 00:43:49,599
in the audience that don't know a lot of the theology,

549
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:54,039
people are beginning to realize, well, I can understand versus,

550
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:58,800
like the gods of the nations are devils, or when

551
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:03,599
Moses says in the Song Moses, they sacrifice to demons,

552
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,159
to gods that were not known, and not to the

553
00:44:07,199 --> 00:44:13,039
God they did know, that's the Song of Moses. Trent

554
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:16,920
didn't even know that David worshiped and loved the Son

555
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,800
that he wrote about. How do I know that he

556
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:23,719
wrote about him? I mean, one, Peter One makes it

557
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:28,920
very clear. The spirit that was speaking through David was

558
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:33,880
not David himself. It was the Spirit of Christ speaking

559
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:39,199
through David about the crucifixion and sufferings of the Messiah.

560
00:44:39,559 --> 00:44:42,000
So the people that were talking about, these Roman Catholics,

561
00:44:42,079 --> 00:44:48,480
you have to understand this. They confess a conceptual external

562
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:56,320
idea of Jesus. But Jesus isn't an idea. They don't

563
00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:02,159
have the true Trinitarian faith. They don't have the true

564
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:07,079
understanding of Christ, because they would know if they did.

565
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,440
As Jesus tells the Apostles on the road to Amaus,

566
00:45:13,679 --> 00:45:17,280
all of the things in the Old Testament are about me.

567
00:45:33,039 --> 00:45:37,599
I just scrolled past it. Where is it at twenty

568
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:42,599
twenty four? Then he said to them, foolish ones, you

569
00:45:42,679 --> 00:45:45,639
are slow of heart to believe in what the prophets

570
00:45:45,679 --> 00:45:48,760
have spoken. Jesus is talking about the Old Testament. What

571
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,079
Jesus says to the apostles could be applied to all

572
00:45:51,079 --> 00:45:55,159
these Roman Catholic goobers. You foolish, slow of heart people.

573
00:45:57,519 --> 00:46:02,639
You don't believe the prophets ought not the Messiah have

574
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:05,119
suffered these things and entered his glory. And beginning at

575
00:46:05,159 --> 00:46:09,320
Moses and all of the prophets, he expounded to them

576
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,559
all of the scriptures, all of the scriptures, in all

577
00:46:12,599 --> 00:46:18,360
the scriptures, the things concerning himself, which is all the scriptures,

578
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:21,000
all of the Old Testament is about him. Did you

579
00:46:21,039 --> 00:46:30,320
know that? That's because when Abraham stands when Moses, excuse me,

580
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:36,119
when the Yahweh appears to Abraham and Abraham looks up

581
00:46:36,119 --> 00:46:42,840
with his eyes, three men stand there. So Yahweh Jehovah,

582
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:49,000
the sun is standing there somehow, Wow, and they have

583
00:46:49,119 --> 00:46:58,360
a meal. Roman Catholics have a problem of unbelief, as

584
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,400
they showed in the discussion with they're deacon. As the

585
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:06,800
discussion progressed, you don't empirically experience God in the Eucharist,

586
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:16,440
they said again, actually unfortunately denying the reality of the

587
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,599
presence in the Eucharist, which is the actual power of

588
00:47:19,639 --> 00:47:23,320
the worship of the Eucharist and its sacrifice. So they

589
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:30,079
don't have it. They tell you out of their own mouths, accidentally,

590
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:36,280
what they really believe, what their real positions are, because

591
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:45,199
it's foolishness, it's darkness and its blindness. Let's look at

592
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:55,480
another overlooked Theophany, Miriam and Moses, assuming Miriam and Aaron

593
00:47:55,519 --> 00:48:02,599
spoke against Moses because of Moses's Ethiopian wife, and they said, well,

594
00:48:02,639 --> 00:48:05,519
did God really speak through Moses, So they start to

595
00:48:05,599 --> 00:48:11,079
challenge him. They want to create a schism. Now, Moses

596
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,679
was very humble, humble above all the men on the earth.

597
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,199
And the Lord spoke to Moses and said, come out

598
00:48:18,199 --> 00:48:21,920
here to the tabernacle of the congregation. And they all

599
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:29,920
three came out look at this and Yahweh Jehovah came

600
00:48:30,039 --> 00:48:35,599
down in the pillar of the cloud and stood at

601
00:48:35,679 --> 00:48:37,559
the door of the tabernacle or in the door of

602
00:48:37,559 --> 00:48:45,719
the tabernacle. That's a powerful theophany, because are they going

603
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:49,880
to say that the glory cloud is created there? Are

604
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:55,039
they going to say that Yahweh Jehovah is created when

605
00:48:55,039 --> 00:48:58,960
he stands there? Guess what actually they will? They will

606
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,119
either say this, this isn't God, even though it says

607
00:49:02,119 --> 00:49:16,360
it's Yahweh Jehoah explicitly clearly in the text all throughout

608
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:24,280
the chapter of number twelve, it's identified as Yahweh standing there,

609
00:49:25,199 --> 00:49:33,199
the same standing there in Genesis eighteen with Abraham, Yahweh

610
00:49:33,199 --> 00:49:38,320
appears in the cloud and stands there. Yahweh appears to

611
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:42,800
Abraham with two men, two angels, and stands there. I

612
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:47,920
wish we had some commentary, perhaps somewhere else in the

613
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:51,400
Bible that could perhaps tell us who this was. I

614
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:58,320
wish we knew remember Roland Cathoch's turn around and deny

615
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:08,760
that it was Jesus doing that. I do not receive

616
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:13,559
honor from men, but I know you, Pharisees. You don't

617
00:50:13,599 --> 00:50:17,119
have the love of God. You don't have the love

618
00:50:17,159 --> 00:50:21,519
of God in you. Therefore they don't worship and endore God.

619
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:25,840
We have Abraham and one God as our father. What

620
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:29,360
does Jesus say, if God were your father, you would

621
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:34,800
love me. But he isn't. Your father is Satan, whom

622
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:37,159
you really worship. That's what he's saying in the whole passage.

623
00:50:37,199 --> 00:50:44,800
This is so obvious. They're idolators. The Pharisees are idolators.

624
00:50:45,119 --> 00:50:50,360
The mental conception God that they have. They claim to

625
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,679
have the God of Abraham, and the whole passage is

626
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:57,440
Jesus saying you don't actually have him. You worship a

627
00:50:57,519 --> 00:51:04,039
false conception which is ultimate Satanic, and your worship is worthless,

628
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:11,039
and you do not love God. If you do not

629
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:16,519
believe Moses's writings, how will you believe when Moses wrote

630
00:51:16,559 --> 00:51:21,960
about me? If you believe Moses, you would believe me,

631
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:26,440
for Moses wrote about me. Because Paul says it's Sacharinius

632
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:28,639
three that when Moses went up on the mountain he

633
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:33,639
talked face to face with Christ. So these people are

634
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:40,480
biblically illiterate. They don't know the first thing about the Theophanes,

635
00:51:40,519 --> 00:51:44,800
which prove multiple times over in the New Testament that

636
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:50,719
it's Jesus that's doing this. It's so good. Another one

637
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,119
it's good, Exodus twenty four. And this one is good

638
00:51:56,159 --> 00:52:02,400
because when they go up on the mountain a Mount

639
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:07,719
Sinai with the seventy elders, they see the God of Israel.

640
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:13,880
Look at this same idea. They saw the God of Israel.

641
00:52:15,559 --> 00:52:20,400
And under his feet you notice we keep getting this

642
00:52:20,639 --> 00:52:27,760
standing in foot imagery, which is body imagery, which is form,

643
00:52:28,039 --> 00:52:37,800
and underneath him was a sapphire pavement, and the nobles

644
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:57,119
of Israel ate and drank with God, a meal with God.

645
00:52:58,559 --> 00:53:02,159
It's not possible for God to eat oh? Really? Like

646
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:06,239
in John when Jesus eats with the apostles after the resurrection,

647
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:12,079
he eats fish. Why is it not possible? It's not

648
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:14,239
impossible because you don't have a body. Well, then, who's

649
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:26,800
wrestling with Jacob? All right, we're going to open it up.

650
00:53:32,519 --> 00:53:35,119
If you disagree, if you have questions, if he wants

651
00:53:35,199 --> 00:53:38,679
to offer an argument, you're free to do so. In fact,

652
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:40,719
I will even if you disagree and you want to

653
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:44,320
make an argument. We have a new policy that Jim

654
00:53:44,639 --> 00:53:48,239
Jatris suggested, and that is that I will be silent

655
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:52,079
for sixty seconds and not say anything. If you disagree,

656
00:53:52,079 --> 00:53:54,119
you would like to make an argument. What's up, Felix?

657
00:53:55,159 --> 00:53:57,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, Hi, Jerry, I mentioned not disagreeing.

658
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:01,039
Speaker 3: I just wanted to bring up the fuck that Tomashevsky

659
00:54:01,159 --> 00:54:02,079
is literally.

660
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:04,840
Speaker 2: Like a clown because we and the other I suppose

661
00:54:05,079 --> 00:54:06,079
Orthodox people.

662
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 3: Had discussions in his comments and he was asked as

663
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:16,079
a question that you actually asked Trent Horn, like what

664
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:19,519
determines which monetism is ultimately correct and which one is not?

665
00:54:20,039 --> 00:54:23,519
And he said like, well, Mormon monetism is definitely wrong.

666
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 2: And the question was.

667
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 3: Asked to him like why is Mormon monetism wrong? And

668
00:54:27,519 --> 00:54:30,079
the answer is just buffer and he said, well, their

669
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:31,760
theology is just too weird.

670
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess. So there's the great Thomas philosophy.

671
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:40,880
Speaker 2: Determines which monetism is correct? Is just himself?

672
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:45,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Great Thomas Philosopher's standard is it feels kind

673
00:54:45,199 --> 00:54:45,719
of weird, bro.

674
00:54:47,679 --> 00:54:48,039
Speaker 2: Yeah.

675
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:52,559
Speaker 3: And he actually said a couple of abominational statement statements

676
00:54:52,599 --> 00:54:53,119
as well.

677
00:54:53,639 --> 00:54:53,880
Speaker 1: Well.

678
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:55,760
Speaker 2: He says that Muslims.

679
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:58,280
Speaker 3: Are not saved, but what he can too says that

680
00:54:58,400 --> 00:54:59,519
Muslims are a part of.

681
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:00,840
Speaker 2: The cavern and part of salvation.

682
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 3: So he doesn't know or doesn't agree with his own

683
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:05,920
magisterial statesments, which is weird.

684
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:08,719
Speaker 2: And he also said that, well, God has to be a.

685
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:12,559
Speaker 3: Transcendent, transcendent spirit, but we also to know that Muslim

686
00:55:12,599 --> 00:55:14,280
God is not a transcendent spirit.

687
00:55:14,599 --> 00:55:16,880
Speaker 1: Islam is not all Liah is not a spirit. So

688
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:19,400
what he's shown is that he has no knowledge of

689
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:20,239
Islam whatsoever.

690
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, just remember that statement that like, well, transitional period

691
00:55:24,559 --> 00:55:27,559
of Islam was in fourteen hundred.

692
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:29,360
Speaker 2: It's just like so so weird.

693
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:32,840
Speaker 3: I just love how they shifted the attention to that

694
00:55:33,119 --> 00:55:37,159
speech of the pope calling the crusade that they called

695
00:55:37,159 --> 00:55:40,159
like well, Jada are basically imagined it and it's forgery,

696
00:55:40,159 --> 00:55:46,159
blah blah blah. Well he except himself much more birder

697
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:50,159
state statements, and they were ignored. So Roman Catholics see

698
00:55:50,199 --> 00:55:52,199
like a pile of dirt and they just rushed to

699
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:53,880
it and ignore their own mistakes.

700
00:55:54,039 --> 00:55:58,679
Speaker 1: So yeah, well, let's address the idea that Muslims are

701
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:03,599
quote in the there is no covenant that exists where

702
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:08,480
you have access to God outside of Christ and baptism.

703
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:13,280
And that's the whole purpose of Galatians three sixteen. To

704
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:16,239
Abraham and to seed the promises were made. He doesn't

705
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:21,559
say seeds. It's not plural. It's not many different branches

706
00:56:21,599 --> 00:56:27,360
of Abraham. It's one your seed capital who is Jesus.

707
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:33,079
The only seed that's being predicted is Christ and those

708
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:36,119
in him through baptism. That's it. So there's no such

709
00:56:36,159 --> 00:56:40,360
thing as an Abrahamic faith. And the Vatican building an

710
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:44,719
Abrahmic faith center with Islam, Judaism and Christianity there tells

711
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:47,719
you that they don't believe Galatians three because it says

712
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:53,000
there is neither June nor Greek. You are Abraham's seed

713
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:57,159
in Christ and heirs of the Covenant. Outside of it,

714
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:01,280
there is no covenant. So Thomas Chef's is actually a heretic.

715
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:03,159
Speaker 2: Yeah.

716
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:07,719
Speaker 3: And just last point, like if Queteles and Muslims worships

717
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:11,360
the same God can be considered like Koran Holy Book now, like.

718
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:14,199
Speaker 1: And well that's why jump all the second kiss the Koran.

719
00:57:15,079 --> 00:57:18,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, and probably ghostbusters in Rome and need to reunite

720
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:22,039
and the West and considered might Bee is in the

721
00:57:22,039 --> 00:57:24,440
West the Holy Book too. I mean, it's just this

722
00:57:24,599 --> 00:57:27,400
system is full of holes and it's not working, and

723
00:57:27,519 --> 00:57:31,320
it's actually ridiculous how they melt down and contradict themselves

724
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:33,960
in like one one sentence is trying to defend it

725
00:57:34,039 --> 00:57:34,400
is just.

726
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 2: Buffering to me.

727
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:39,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, and didn't one of them like I thought at first,

728
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:46,440
Trent believed that the Mormon God is the same referent

729
00:57:46,559 --> 00:57:49,559
and it is the same God. But toma Zevski is saying, no,

730
00:57:49,559 --> 00:57:53,119
Mormons don't make the cut. But it's arbitrary, so they

731
00:57:53,159 --> 00:57:55,039
can't even agree. They don't even agree amongst them to

732
00:57:55,239 --> 00:58:02,920
they don't even know. Are you there?

733
00:58:04,239 --> 00:58:06,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm there. I just finished my point. Okay, you're

734
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:07,800
going to go to the next person.

735
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:10,519
Speaker 1: Thank you for your great, great points exactly.

736
00:58:10,559 --> 00:58:10,719
Speaker 2: Yeah.

737
00:58:10,719 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 1: I haven't even thought about interacting with tomo Jevsky. But

738
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:16,599
I mean the fact that in a debate somebody says

739
00:58:16,679 --> 00:58:21,599
I refuse to answer those questions. In a properly moderated

740
00:58:21,639 --> 00:58:25,239
classical debate, that means the moderator comes in and says,

741
00:58:26,559 --> 00:58:28,719
you can be surrendering the debate if you're not going

742
00:58:28,719 --> 00:58:32,079
to answer the questions. That's what a moderator is supposed

743
00:58:32,079 --> 00:58:32,280
to do.

744
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:40,039
Speaker 2: Yeah. By the way, i'm the new Federal Drug Administration here,

745
00:58:40,079 --> 00:58:42,000
i am.

746
00:58:42,039 --> 00:58:46,519
Speaker 1: But you know, yeah, I mean, I think, uh, you

747
00:58:46,559 --> 00:58:49,119
could actually probably reason in that in that direction that

748
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:54,679
if the Qur'an is a revelation from God, then why

749
00:58:54,719 --> 00:58:57,760
not If Vatican too is right, why not kiss the Qur'an.

750
00:59:00,239 --> 00:59:01,199
Speaker 2: Hey, I want to bring.

751
00:59:01,079 --> 00:59:05,760
Speaker 4: Up something too. It's interesting. So part of my argument,

752
00:59:06,599 --> 00:59:11,639
if you remember, on the kind of epistemic and semantic area,

753
00:59:12,639 --> 00:59:18,719
he was saying that doctor Trump Doughtry was saying that

754
00:59:19,039 --> 00:59:22,519
the fact that Mohammad had interactions.

755
00:59:22,039 --> 00:59:26,800
Speaker 2: With Jews or Muslims was enough to fix the reference.

756
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:30,719
Speaker 4: So it's almost as if you admit without that, of

757
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:33,639
course it would just be some other weird religion, and

758
00:59:33,719 --> 00:59:34,239
it wouldn't.

759
00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 2: But that was enough.

760
00:59:36,519 --> 00:59:39,239
Speaker 4: Don't you find it odd that it's like but we

761
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:44,920
have no idea what those interactions were. So I'd like

762
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:49,519
to press him on the fact that so anybody that

763
00:59:49,639 --> 00:59:55,559
has any interaction whatsoever with a Christian like that automatically

764
00:59:55,880 --> 00:59:59,639
fixes the reference. Was talking about a grocery store and

765
00:59:59,679 --> 01:00:02,000
you ru into a Christian. Hey, stop me if you've

766
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:02,719
heard this one.

767
01:00:03,159 --> 01:00:05,079
Speaker 2: So atheist is.

768
01:00:05,119 --> 01:00:08,360
Speaker 4: Running to the grocery store and says, where's the grocery store?

769
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:11,119
Speaker 2: Runs into a Christian. He starts telling them about God

770
01:00:11,199 --> 01:00:13,960
and thinks that thick the grocery store has got.

771
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:20,119
Speaker 4: Like do you see how like yeah, not robust and

772
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:23,239
just kind of general and handwight. Well, that's enough as

773
01:00:23,239 --> 01:00:28,559
long as you that can't nobody serious and they're a

774
01:00:28,639 --> 01:00:33,440
serious person would take that seriously that it's like, well, literally,

775
01:00:33,519 --> 01:00:36,159
just that we heard there was a general conversation or

776
01:00:36,159 --> 01:00:36,920
some interaction.

777
01:00:37,079 --> 01:00:38,840
Speaker 2: That's enough to talk about.

778
01:00:39,159 --> 01:00:42,760
Speaker 1: Right Brian five dollars. I saw a comment saying that

779
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:46,239
people are leaving Catholicism over their disbelief in the Angel

780
01:00:46,239 --> 01:00:49,360
of the Lord in the Theophanes issue. But Trent says,

781
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:54,760
why does it matter exactly? Uh, Well, it matters because

782
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:57,599
now you're surrendering the very thing that the New Testament

783
01:00:57,679 --> 01:00:59,719
is arguing to prove the deity of Christ and that

784
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:01,880
he's the Messiah, that he is the God of the

785
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:05,639
Old Testament. Hebrews one, John one, on and on on.

786
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:11,320
Speaker 4: Hey, can we talk real quick about the the Theophanies

787
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:13,239
because you brought that up and I wanted to ask

788
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:16,880
a question, especially because your priest father flat did one

789
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:21,679
of the best lectures on Saint Andre Rubelov's.

790
01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:23,519
Speaker 2: Holy Trinity.

791
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:29,519
Speaker 4: There's a guy on ax a reader, an Orthodox reader,

792
01:01:29,599 --> 01:01:32,719
saying that the Father and the Holy.

793
01:01:32,519 --> 01:01:35,159
Speaker 2: Spirit aren't in there, And I'm like, you've got to

794
01:01:35,159 --> 01:01:36,000
be kidding me, so.

795
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:37,559
Speaker 1: That I don't think they are.

796
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:41,679
Speaker 2: What's that they're not? So?

797
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:46,239
Speaker 4: I thought they were represented much like the baptism of

798
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:52,719
Christ as energetic processions through Christ. So obviously the Angel

799
01:01:52,719 --> 01:01:57,760
of the Lord Christ is present pre incarnate, but just

800
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:03,119
like we see in the Theophany when Christ is being baptized,

801
01:02:03,199 --> 01:02:05,320
the Holy Trinity is made manifest.

802
01:02:06,719 --> 01:02:09,039
Speaker 1: No, I understand what you're saying. But the reason that

803
01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:11,480
we that I don't think that that is the case

804
01:02:11,639 --> 01:02:14,800
is because we are told in the very next chapter

805
01:02:15,039 --> 01:02:17,920
who the identity of the other two is, and they're

806
01:02:18,119 --> 01:02:21,920
they're the two angels. So, in other words, the text

807
01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:25,639
says that Abraham saw three men and then we're told

808
01:02:25,679 --> 01:02:28,039
that it's one of them is the Lord Yahweh. And

809
01:02:28,079 --> 01:02:31,239
then the next chapter tells us that the two angels

810
01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:34,800
left to go destroy Sodom and goomor So the.

811
01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:38,280
Speaker 4: Two angels can't be energetic manifestations in the fathering Holy Spirit,

812
01:02:39,599 --> 01:02:40,800
That's what I'm trying to figure out.

813
01:02:42,519 --> 01:02:46,239
Speaker 1: I don't think so, because they're distinguished from the Lord.

814
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:49,199
If they were also Lord, they would be given that title.

815
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:54,440
But they're called the Lord and two men, so there's

816
01:02:54,440 --> 01:03:01,519
a distinction between them, got it. And also also, of

817
01:03:01,519 --> 01:03:05,679
course I think also according to the my Icon Council

818
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:12,440
Monstero Icon Council, the only valid representations of the Holy

819
01:03:12,519 --> 01:03:18,000
Spirit are as an energetic maifestation are tongues of fire

820
01:03:18,039 --> 01:03:22,159
and dove, so you can't you can't picture him as

821
01:03:22,159 --> 01:03:22,719
an angel.

822
01:03:23,039 --> 01:03:29,719
Speaker 4: I was interpreting the icon through the Feast Pentecost, where

823
01:03:29,719 --> 01:03:32,480
I'm like, well, obviously the Holy Spirit's not a dove,

824
01:03:33,599 --> 01:03:36,119
and the voice of the Father becomes present through an

825
01:03:36,199 --> 01:03:40,519
energetic manifestation of the dove. It says the Holy Spirit

826
01:03:40,599 --> 01:03:43,599
in the form of a dove, so we know, well,

827
01:03:43,639 --> 01:03:47,559
he's not actually a dove, but he's made manifest as

828
01:03:47,559 --> 01:03:48,639
we see in the Tripartian.

829
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:51,360
Speaker 2: I thought that's what was going on.

830
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:55,840
Speaker 1: Well, it is triaddic because there's three and the three

831
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:59,119
there is symbolic of the triad. But I just don't

832
01:03:59,119 --> 01:03:59,880
see any reason.

833
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:03,039
Speaker 4: I just don't know how in my mind to separate

834
01:04:03,119 --> 01:04:06,159
that from energetic manifestations.

835
01:04:06,719 --> 01:04:09,519
Speaker 1: Because they're not because they're angels. They're not. They're not

836
01:04:09,679 --> 01:04:13,519
energetic manifestations of the Father of the Spirit. Okay, And

837
01:04:13,559 --> 01:04:18,440
that's because if we look at Genesis eighteen, it says

838
01:04:18,519 --> 01:04:23,360
Abraham sees three men, and one of them is the

839
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:28,039
Lord Yahweh, right, And then in the next chapter it says,

840
01:04:28,159 --> 01:04:31,840
and the two angels left to go destroy Sodom and Gomora.

841
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:34,280
So one of them is Yahweh, the Lord, and the

842
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:38,239
other two are his attending angels with him.

843
01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:44,800
Speaker 4: And I just thought angels could represent the energetic manifestations.

844
01:04:44,159 --> 01:04:48,760
Speaker 2: Of the Father and Spirit. But if they're actually different.

845
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:50,480
Speaker 1: Anger, I only think one of them is referred to

846
01:04:50,519 --> 01:04:51,400
as Yahweh, though.

847
01:04:51,239 --> 01:04:54,960
Speaker 4: They all have to look at the council on fifteen

848
01:04:55,039 --> 01:04:58,159
fifty one, I don't know it that well.

849
01:04:58,639 --> 01:04:59,239
Speaker 2: So forgive me.

850
01:05:01,239 --> 01:05:17,320
Speaker 1: Let me see Genesis. Let's see boarding again here. So

851
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:20,800
the three men appear and Abraham identifies and says one

852
01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:25,920
of them is Lord, and they have this discussion about

853
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:39,519
you know, Sarah laughing. But we are told in verse

854
01:05:39,639 --> 01:05:44,800
twenty two. In verse twenty the Lord said, because the

855
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:49,400
cry of God a Sodom is great, their sin is grievous,

856
01:05:49,679 --> 01:05:55,119
I'm going to go destroy it. And the men turned, okay.

857
01:05:55,159 --> 01:05:59,320
So see verse twenty two. Two of the men are

858
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:04,360
turning to lee Eve. And then Abraham stood yet before yeahweh,

859
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:07,480
so one of them is the Lord and the other

860
01:06:07,599 --> 01:06:13,360
two are presumably destroying angels, because after this discussion, in

861
01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:17,119
the next chapter two of them go to destroy some anymore.

862
01:06:21,079 --> 01:06:26,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a complicated one. I'm gonna have to ask

863
01:06:28,079 --> 01:06:31,199
people higher up than me than buy you what you're saying.

864
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:36,039
Speaker 1: I think verse twenty two makes Yeah, that makes the

865
01:06:36,119 --> 01:06:36,559
key point.

866
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:39,039
Speaker 2: And I was just worried because of.

867
01:06:41,039 --> 01:06:47,840
Speaker 4: Maybe I misjudged this reader, because obviously we're all paranoid

868
01:06:47,840 --> 01:06:51,800
of you know, Western kind of influence coming in. Just

869
01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:55,159
I thought he was saying, like these are just holograms,

870
01:06:55,239 --> 01:06:58,280
He's aren't really God and stuff like, so I probably

871
01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:00,000
misjudge me to forgive me everybody.

872
01:07:01,679 --> 01:07:04,360
Speaker 1: No, it's okay, I mean I think it is. There

873
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:06,519
is a tendency to think that it's Father, Son and

874
01:07:06,519 --> 01:07:11,119
Holy Spirit manifesting. But I think it's just symbolic of

875
01:07:11,159 --> 01:07:14,800
the triad. But one of them is the Sun, and

876
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:19,760
that's normal too, because like in other Theophanes, you have

877
01:07:21,079 --> 01:07:23,239
like in when we read at number twelve, like it's

878
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:26,639
just the sun coming down, right, unless you want to

879
01:07:26,679 --> 01:07:29,119
argue that the glory cloud might be a reference to

880
01:07:29,159 --> 01:07:32,519
the Spirit, which you could make that argument.

881
01:07:35,039 --> 01:07:40,639
Speaker 2: But the important point though with all of this is

882
01:07:41,119 --> 01:07:44,840
that and you see this too.

883
01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:49,159
Speaker 4: I'm seeing this on Twitter right now, Christal Thomas Swatsky.

884
01:07:50,679 --> 01:07:54,199
Speaker 2: Having beef with the essence energies distinctions.

885
01:07:54,280 --> 01:08:00,840
Speaker 4: So what I wanted to defend is obviously these are

886
01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:04,920
not created effects, are not holygrams, these Theophanes and stuff

887
01:08:04,920 --> 01:08:10,440
like that. It's really God in the burning bush. It's

888
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:17,880
really gone on Abraham's uh visitation, which is exactly why

889
01:08:18,039 --> 01:08:23,439
Christopher went to say that God's not empirically in.

890
01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:25,439
Speaker 1: Well, Jesus, Jesus says he's the one in the burning bush.

891
01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:31,319
I mean, yeah, exactly before Abraham was. I am, can you.

892
01:08:31,319 --> 01:08:33,760
Speaker 2: Tell a Roman Catholic thisis? They have like they're like

893
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:34,640
they can't believe it.

894
01:08:37,239 --> 01:08:39,000
Speaker 1: Well that's what I'm That's why I'm saying. The key

895
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:43,159
to all this is Theophanes. Like Theophanes are the lynch pin,

896
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:47,159
and I every Tomus I've tested this out on, they

897
01:08:47,279 --> 01:08:51,600
falter and they end up saying that they can't it

898
01:08:51,680 --> 01:08:53,920
can't be God because God can't be in time and space.

899
01:08:54,279 --> 01:08:56,640
Oh okay, well then the incarnation can't happen either.

900
01:08:56,720 --> 01:09:01,039
Speaker 2: So and forgive me everybody you know, well, what like.

901
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:10,760
Speaker 4: With uh the toma Schwaski and I going back and

902
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:15,119
forth on like do you think that you can taste God?

903
01:09:16,079 --> 01:09:19,600
My affirmation but also reluctance and wanting to qualify that.

904
01:09:20,760 --> 01:09:24,039
Speaker 2: There's just as you noticed in the debate, there's just

905
01:09:24,119 --> 01:09:26,560
not enough time to get to all the points.

906
01:09:26,680 --> 01:09:30,319
Speaker 4: But one thing I wanted to bring up before I

907
01:09:30,399 --> 01:09:34,399
got distracted was Psalm thirty four to eight, which we.

908
01:09:34,520 --> 01:09:38,439
Speaker 2: Sing in the communion him.

909
01:09:37,880 --> 01:09:43,800
Speaker 4: Oh taste and see that the Lord is good?

910
01:09:44,119 --> 01:09:49,960
Speaker 2: Right right, Mike? What it's literally the song like he

911
01:09:50,039 --> 01:09:51,399
so he asked me as if it was.

912
01:09:51,399 --> 01:09:53,880
Speaker 4: A ridiculous like I got to you, so you think

913
01:09:53,920 --> 01:09:54,720
you can taste God?

914
01:09:54,800 --> 01:09:58,800
Speaker 2: I'm like, hey, take it up with take it up

915
01:09:58,840 --> 01:10:00,199
with David the song.

916
01:10:00,079 --> 01:10:03,399
Speaker 1: Miss, I mean that's a that's I mean, Thomas are

917
01:10:03,439 --> 01:10:04,520
not going to be able to tell you how the

918
01:10:04,560 --> 01:10:06,720
real presence is even possible, because they're going to end

919
01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:11,239
up saying it's some created form of grace. But there

920
01:10:11,279 --> 01:10:12,680
is no such thing as created God.

921
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:17,039
Speaker 4: So and so here's the thing too, And I knew

922
01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:20,560
I didn't want to get too far into because this

923
01:10:20,680 --> 01:10:24,319
sort of went on forever, but like it does, Hinge

924
01:10:24,319 --> 01:10:28,119
on the essence energies, right, I do want.

925
01:10:28,039 --> 01:10:32,560
Speaker 2: To affirm like, of course you don't taste the essence

926
01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:33,119
of something.

927
01:10:33,199 --> 01:10:35,960
Speaker 1: No, it's it's it's partaking of the energies, as Cyril says,

928
01:10:36,479 --> 01:10:37,399
and the energies.

929
01:10:38,079 --> 01:10:42,000
Speaker 4: So then he's going to say, well, empirical to empirically

930
01:10:42,039 --> 01:10:46,079
sense something means you you partake of accidental properties.

931
01:10:46,199 --> 01:10:48,319
Speaker 2: Did you notice that he went there? So it's a

932
01:10:48,359 --> 01:10:49,600
substance and accents.

933
01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:54,399
Speaker 4: I'm like, I'm not going there because the problem is

934
01:10:55,640 --> 01:10:58,439
all of this ignores the energy.

935
01:10:58,680 --> 01:11:00,920
Speaker 1: Well, it's ignoring the what the what the grace is?

936
01:11:00,960 --> 01:11:05,880
We're not asking if you believe the you know, accidents

937
01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:07,079
of bread and wine are there?

938
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:08,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

939
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:11,199
Speaker 1: You believe as a Roman Catholic that it's body, blood, soul,

940
01:11:11,279 --> 01:11:14,159
and divinity. And so the question is what's the divinity?

941
01:11:15,079 --> 01:11:19,439
Speaker 4: And the thing is the energies what a saint Paul

942
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:22,560
says in him we move, live and have our beam right,

943
01:11:23,039 --> 01:11:25,000
the Holy spirit that feels.

944
01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:26,159
Speaker 2: All things right.

945
01:11:27,199 --> 01:11:32,439
Speaker 4: So and that's why I brought up the analogy with iconography.

946
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:39,119
I can say that I'm experientially indirectly, I'm not doing

947
01:11:39,159 --> 01:11:42,720
any discursive reason and deductions to be like, well, I'm

948
01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:45,840
just concluding from creative effects to a guy, it's like

949
01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:52,039
he's actually in the leaves, in the various properties right

950
01:11:52,640 --> 01:11:59,960
in obviously different modes, without being those accidental properties themselves,

951
01:12:01,119 --> 01:12:04,680
exactly what Saint johnath Damascus argues.

952
01:12:07,239 --> 01:12:08,720
Speaker 2: But like they couldn't understand that.

953
01:12:08,800 --> 01:12:13,039
Speaker 4: I'm like, of course, I directly empirically experienced him, because

954
01:12:13,039 --> 01:12:17,800
he's in it without being the properties or the or

955
01:12:17,840 --> 01:12:21,439
the substance of the thing. But that opens up a

956
01:12:21,479 --> 01:12:25,000
whole debate about which Christopher and I have had before

957
01:12:25,600 --> 01:12:31,159
about essence energies, which I think doctor David Bradshaw put

958
01:12:31,199 --> 01:12:33,039
him in his place on all that.

959
01:12:33,279 --> 01:12:37,239
Speaker 1: Sure, what's up, man, Andre, what's on your mind?

960
01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:38,279
Speaker 2: Hey? What's up?

961
01:12:38,359 --> 01:12:38,520
Speaker 3: Jake?

962
01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:40,760
Speaker 2: Can you hear me? Yep? Hey?

963
01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:43,000
Speaker 6: So to real quick to answer the question about the

964
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:46,399
three men and Genesis, we had my Orthodox study Bible,

965
01:12:46,399 --> 01:12:48,279
and it says one of them was the Lord and

966
01:12:48,399 --> 01:12:49,680
the others who were the angels.

967
01:12:49,720 --> 01:12:52,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, and so and I just looked up Genesis

968
01:12:52,479 --> 01:12:55,399
eighteen twenty two in the Hebrew and the text there

969
01:12:55,479 --> 01:13:01,279
says two of them went away and Abraham stood before yahweh.

970
01:13:01,560 --> 01:13:06,000
Speaker 6: So yeah, and then it says that law also he

971
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:09,319
he worshiped, he respected them as lords, but he didn't

972
01:13:09,319 --> 01:13:09,880
worship them.

973
01:13:10,079 --> 01:13:13,600
Speaker 1: Oh, good point. So when the other two come to

974
01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:15,199
to a lot, he doesn't worship.

975
01:13:16,520 --> 01:13:19,199
Speaker 6: Yeah, he called them, he said he does respect to them,

976
01:13:19,239 --> 01:13:21,079
but he says that they were creating beings.

977
01:13:21,239 --> 01:13:22,640
Speaker 1: Oh that's a great point. I don't even know. I

978
01:13:22,640 --> 01:13:25,239
didn't even notice that that. Yeah.

979
01:13:25,640 --> 01:13:26,039
Speaker 2: Yeah.

980
01:13:26,359 --> 01:13:30,439
Speaker 6: And also I had another question too, So what is

981
01:13:30,479 --> 01:13:34,000
the Protestant sacrifice that they don't have that the Orthodox has?

982
01:13:36,399 --> 01:13:36,840
Speaker 1: What's that?

983
01:13:36,880 --> 01:13:37,600
Speaker 2: Now? Oh?

984
01:13:37,880 --> 01:13:42,039
Speaker 1: I was just saying that Protestants at least acknowledge one sacrifice,

985
01:13:42,079 --> 01:13:46,840
which was Christ on the Cross, but they don't believe

986
01:13:46,880 --> 01:13:52,760
that there's an ongoing eucharistic altar where you worship God. Right,

987
01:13:52,920 --> 01:13:57,159
So Protestants and Roman Catholics actually share this idea that

988
01:13:57,239 --> 01:14:01,199
the faith and worship is primarily mental as and that

989
01:14:01,319 --> 01:14:04,239
is not the Orthodox position. I know that Roman Catholics

990
01:14:04,439 --> 01:14:09,359
agree that God wants sacrificial worship at an altar. I

991
01:14:09,359 --> 01:14:11,840
know they believe that. But when you say the faith

992
01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:13,560
and when you say worship, the only way that you

993
01:14:13,560 --> 01:14:16,760
could that they could even conceive of or or get

994
01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:20,760
to that argument of Muslims worshiping the same God is

995
01:14:20,800 --> 01:14:24,079
if you no longer conceive of the worship of God

996
01:14:24,159 --> 01:14:26,159
being what he lays down.

997
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:31,079
Speaker 4: I also would say that this in most processes would

998
01:14:31,119 --> 01:14:34,119
know this, Jay, you would agree with me on this.

999
01:14:34,119 --> 01:14:40,119
This is because the reformers were normalists, correct, So there

1000
01:14:40,199 --> 01:14:44,439
is no obviously when it comes to essences and you

1001
01:14:44,479 --> 01:14:48,920
know the ontology and what that means in terms of salvation,

1002
01:14:49,760 --> 01:14:50,840
that's off the table.

1003
01:14:51,800 --> 01:14:52,960
Speaker 2: So as.

1004
01:14:55,199 --> 01:15:00,159
Speaker 4: Nominalism suggests names like it's a legal so how how

1005
01:15:00,159 --> 01:15:05,119
do you do legal contracts or anything in law? It's

1006
01:15:05,119 --> 01:15:09,720
a mental it's intent, it's mental assent. It all becomes

1007
01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:14,960
not on like what's the word I would he use,

1008
01:15:16,039 --> 01:15:20,600
a rejection of ontology, and it's all cashed out in

1009
01:15:20,720 --> 01:15:22,800
terms propositions and.

1010
01:15:22,760 --> 01:15:24,840
Speaker 2: Mental And you can see this going even.

1011
01:15:24,640 --> 01:15:30,920
Speaker 4: In the past the original reformers to through Calvinism and

1012
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:32,520
Lutheranism and stuff like that.

1013
01:15:32,560 --> 01:15:34,359
Speaker 2: It's it's all proposition.

1014
01:15:34,960 --> 01:15:38,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean this is why. This is

1015
01:15:38,439 --> 01:15:40,760
how Luther was able to even get to the point

1016
01:15:41,319 --> 01:15:46,039
of arguing that justification and imputation are purely legal statuses.

1017
01:15:46,239 --> 01:15:52,800
Is by nominalism divorcing the reality from the name. Okay,

1018
01:15:53,479 --> 01:16:10,319
but great questions andres Tallahassee patriot. H I'm yet.

1019
01:16:15,199 --> 01:16:22,920
Speaker 2: Hello, Yeah, I'm just messing with you. Hello? Is this

1020
01:16:23,039 --> 01:16:33,840
day tire? Yo?

1021
01:16:34,000 --> 01:16:54,319
Speaker 1: Solo? Go ahead?

1022
01:16:55,720 --> 01:16:55,920
Speaker 2: Oh?

1023
01:16:55,960 --> 01:16:56,159
Speaker 1: Hey?

1024
01:16:56,760 --> 01:17:01,239
Speaker 7: I had a question you mentioned with your talk with

1025
01:17:02,399 --> 01:17:05,000
Tim Gordon I think his name was. You said that

1026
01:17:05,039 --> 01:17:09,399
you don't believe in generic monotheism. I think is the

1027
01:17:09,479 --> 01:17:10,159
term you used?

1028
01:17:11,000 --> 01:17:15,079
Speaker 2: Uh? Kind of a dumb question. But if.

1029
01:17:16,760 --> 01:17:19,920
Speaker 7: Muslims worship, Like if you ask a Muslim what does

1030
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:24,319
God and they say, well, God is the eternal creator

1031
01:17:24,359 --> 01:17:27,800
of the material and immaterial universe, and a Christian says

1032
01:17:27,840 --> 01:17:32,520
the same thing. Isn't that like quote unquote generic monotheism?

1033
01:17:32,640 --> 01:17:34,159
Speaker 2: I guess no.

1034
01:17:34,800 --> 01:17:38,319
Speaker 1: The argument is that generic monotheism doesn't get you anywhere,

1035
01:17:38,319 --> 01:17:42,439
and it's not the same reference because for us, an

1036
01:17:42,560 --> 01:17:46,399
essential quality to identifying who that is is that Jesus

1037
01:17:46,520 --> 01:17:49,960
is the creator. So there's an immediate disqualified right there.

1038
01:17:52,520 --> 01:17:54,840
Speaker 7: So do you think like when you used to when

1039
01:17:54,840 --> 01:17:59,880
you use the term generic monotheism.

1040
01:17:59,079 --> 01:18:01,319
Speaker 1: There's no such thing. It's a it's a fiction. It's

1041
01:18:01,359 --> 01:18:03,319
an arbitrary Is.

1042
01:18:03,319 --> 01:18:06,079
Speaker 4: There anything like that generic human beings that just has

1043
01:18:06,319 --> 01:18:07,760
arms and legs?

1044
01:18:10,600 --> 01:18:11,000
Speaker 2: No?

1045
01:18:11,159 --> 01:18:13,840
Speaker 1: Okay, between can we talk.

1046
01:18:13,720 --> 01:18:16,279
Speaker 2: About like uh, Sally's brothers.

1047
01:18:16,720 --> 01:18:19,399
Speaker 4: I don't know why that came in my mind and

1048
01:18:19,399 --> 01:18:22,920
be referring one person's just like, well, I refer to

1049
01:18:23,039 --> 01:18:25,439
her because I'm thinking about.

1050
01:18:25,199 --> 01:18:27,680
Speaker 2: A person that has arms and legs. Right, yeah, right,

1051
01:18:27,720 --> 01:18:31,520
I understand the analogy. So I guess what you're saying

1052
01:18:31,600 --> 01:18:34,279
is it's either either you're.

1053
01:18:34,119 --> 01:18:38,319
Speaker 7: Worshiping Jesus Christ, the One True God, or you're worshiping nothing.

1054
01:18:38,560 --> 01:18:40,720
Speaker 1: What I said at the beginning was no, you're worship

1055
01:18:40,720 --> 01:18:44,720
being an idol. And all idols and all heresies cancel out.

1056
01:18:44,960 --> 01:18:47,319
They don't get you anywhere. And that's the whole point

1057
01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:52,880
is that let's say I have all of the in

1058
01:18:52,920 --> 01:18:57,399
other words, Trinity and Christ being the second person of

1059
01:18:57,399 --> 01:19:03,079
the Godhead, they're not accident attributes. They're essential to to

1060
01:19:03,239 --> 01:19:06,840
identifying who they're referent in the deity is there's no

1061
01:19:06,880 --> 01:19:11,119
such thing as a core attribute like one simple creator,

1062
01:19:11,920 --> 01:19:20,520
and then Trinity and Jesus are not core. That's the problem. Yes, okay,

1063
01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:24,880
because because the Aryans, when the Aryans said, we worship

1064
01:19:25,000 --> 01:19:28,880
God too, but the sun is not fully divine, the

1065
01:19:29,159 --> 01:19:33,760
Patristan consensus says, good job, you've lost God. Your idolators know.

1066
01:19:34,600 --> 01:19:39,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, and what they're doing is. And this is the

1067
01:19:39,079 --> 01:19:42,119
distinction I was trying to bring up with Trent and Christopher,

1068
01:19:43,479 --> 01:19:48,000
is that you're now just talking at a linguistic level

1069
01:19:48,039 --> 01:19:51,199
of like it is somewhat it's a kind of second

1070
01:19:51,359 --> 01:19:54,239
order what Tarsk you would call metalanguage.

1071
01:19:54,720 --> 01:19:57,880
Speaker 2: You're talking about your concepts, but.

1072
01:19:57,800 --> 01:20:01,800
Speaker 4: That doesn't mean that that con actually refers to any

1073
01:20:01,880 --> 01:20:03,680
real entity in the world.

1074
01:20:04,439 --> 01:20:06,640
Speaker 2: So generically it kind of like, we know what.

1075
01:20:06,640 --> 01:20:11,640
Speaker 4: You're talking about, but it doesn't attach to anything specifically.

1076
01:20:12,560 --> 01:20:17,039
Speaker 2: And so why Jay said it's idolatry is because, and

1077
01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:18,800
I believe.

1078
01:20:20,720 --> 01:20:23,119
Speaker 4: Father Demetri Stanlee talks about this too.

1079
01:20:23,600 --> 01:20:24,720
Speaker 2: I put it in one of.

1080
01:20:24,640 --> 01:20:31,159
Speaker 4: My papers as a quote that they become phantasms, and

1081
01:20:31,199 --> 01:20:34,960
I think you specifically speaking about the Roman Catholics, that

1082
01:20:35,920 --> 01:20:40,640
they become mental constructs in one's mind, and phantasms that

1083
01:20:40,760 --> 01:20:44,239
don't have a reference, and you end up worshiping your

1084
01:20:44,399 --> 01:20:48,720
idea of God in this generic sense rather than the

1085
01:20:48,760 --> 01:20:52,760
true God himself. And that's exactly the definition of idolatry,

1086
01:20:53,319 --> 01:20:55,439
anything that you worship and put.

1087
01:20:55,239 --> 01:20:56,720
Speaker 2: Above the actual true God.

1088
01:20:56,800 --> 01:20:58,960
Speaker 4: So if you put your concept of God above the

1089
01:20:59,000 --> 01:21:00,920
true God, you're a n idolatre.

1090
01:21:01,079 --> 01:21:04,720
Speaker 7: That's Jay's point so by worship and sorry to just

1091
01:21:04,760 --> 01:21:07,960
wrap it up, so by worshiping what they call God

1092
01:21:08,319 --> 01:21:10,399
but is actually not you know, Jesus Christ and not

1093
01:21:10,399 --> 01:21:13,680
the Trinitarian God. I guess we were saying with like

1094
01:21:14,359 --> 01:21:18,479
creating a phantasm, is they've just invented almost like a fiction,

1095
01:21:18,760 --> 01:21:20,319
like just a fictional.

1096
01:21:20,079 --> 01:21:23,439
Speaker 1: Yes, hence my, did you hear my Bill Cosby example? Earlier?

1097
01:21:24,119 --> 01:21:24,520
Speaker 2: I missed.

1098
01:21:24,920 --> 01:21:26,800
Speaker 1: So basically I just said that, let's say that there's

1099
01:21:26,840 --> 01:21:33,199
a yeah, there's a there's a generic consensus that Americans

1100
01:21:33,199 --> 01:21:35,079
believe Bill Cosby. We're going to disaver the sake of

1101
01:21:35,119 --> 01:21:38,079
Argument's nineteen seventy eight. Americans believe that Bill Cosby is

1102
01:21:38,119 --> 01:21:42,279
the funniest comedian out there. He's America's best comic. And

1103
01:21:42,560 --> 01:21:46,119
a team of crafty marketers and scammers come up with

1104
01:21:46,159 --> 01:21:49,880
this idea of a backstory, and they take pictures of

1105
01:21:49,920 --> 01:21:54,159
Bill Cosby and they create a character that's very similar,

1106
01:21:54,159 --> 01:21:56,600
almost identical to Bill Cosby, but he has got a

1107
01:21:56,600 --> 01:21:59,039
few different attributes or a few different qualities. They put

1108
01:21:59,039 --> 01:22:01,640
a hat on him and they say he's Charlie Cosby,

1109
01:22:01,680 --> 01:22:07,479
Bill Cosby's funnier genius cousin. Who's the real brains by

1110
01:22:07,560 --> 01:22:11,520
the operation and the real comedian, and they sell out stadiums,

1111
01:22:11,600 --> 01:22:15,640
everybody waiting to be knocked on their butts laughing by

1112
01:22:16,039 --> 01:22:20,359
Charlie Cosby. Well, it turns out exactly, It turns out

1113
01:22:20,359 --> 01:22:23,079
that everybody was duped and that it was a kind

1114
01:22:23,119 --> 01:22:25,720
of a con because when they show up, there is

1115
01:22:25,760 --> 01:22:27,800
no Charlie Cosby. And even though there was all these

1116
01:22:27,840 --> 01:22:30,600
pictures and it looked like sure as hell, looked like

1117
01:22:30,680 --> 01:22:33,359
Bill Cosby's cousin, they had almost the same. Turns out,

1118
01:22:33,399 --> 01:22:36,520
e were just pictures of Bill Cosby and the demons,

1119
01:22:36,760 --> 01:22:40,880
as you can see, are the marketers. That's the better

1120
01:22:40,920 --> 01:22:43,279
analogy than the clerk can't superman analogy.

1121
01:22:43,920 --> 01:22:46,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, okay.

1122
01:22:46,640 --> 01:22:49,439
Speaker 1: And that's why the church fathers teach that when you

1123
01:22:49,600 --> 01:22:52,199
deny the son, you lose the father.

1124
01:22:53,119 --> 01:22:57,760
Speaker 2: M h. All right, you very much. So.

1125
01:22:57,760 --> 01:23:00,560
Speaker 1: In other words, it only takes see they've got it backwards.

1126
01:23:00,560 --> 01:23:04,199
It's not a bottom up project of stacking up common attributes,

1127
01:23:04,560 --> 01:23:08,279
because as one John two says, if you deny the sun,

1128
01:23:08,399 --> 01:23:11,439
you lose it all. And that's why we read earlier,

1129
01:23:11,479 --> 01:23:15,600
we read two papal quotes from pre Tridentine Catholicism, even

1130
01:23:15,640 --> 01:23:19,479
admitting that point. Even the pre Vatican two papal teaching

1131
01:23:19,520 --> 01:23:24,920
admitted that if you depart in one magisterial dogmatic teaching,

1132
01:23:25,680 --> 01:23:26,720
you've lost the whole.

1133
01:23:27,760 --> 01:23:28,640
Speaker 2: You know what's interesting.

1134
01:23:29,199 --> 01:23:31,960
Speaker 4: I was talking to my priest Father Russell about the debate,

1135
01:23:33,399 --> 01:23:35,079
and he had a really good point.

1136
01:23:35,039 --> 01:23:35,640
Speaker 2: That we all know.

1137
01:23:37,159 --> 01:23:41,079
Speaker 4: She says, you've ever moved from the abstrack to a particular.

1138
01:23:41,560 --> 01:23:42,960
Speaker 2: I establish a reference.

1139
01:23:43,479 --> 01:23:49,640
Speaker 4: Abstracts are established from the particular, which is what a

1140
01:23:49,720 --> 01:23:53,439
lot of these people were assuming. Oh, this natural theology

1141
01:23:53,479 --> 01:23:57,600
can start from the abstractor carmen core or something like that, and.

1142
01:23:57,560 --> 01:23:59,439
Speaker 2: Then establish a particular reference.

1143
01:24:00,600 --> 01:24:03,079
Speaker 4: And we might be wrong about these things, but that's

1144
01:24:03,159 --> 01:24:08,960
not actually how logic and epistemology work. You only get

1145
01:24:08,960 --> 01:24:16,800
to abstract a generic idea of like human nature, like

1146
01:24:17,000 --> 01:24:20,199
arms and legs, from actually encountering particular people.

1147
01:24:21,479 --> 01:24:24,600
Speaker 1: Well again, and you you know, that's why I kept

1148
01:24:24,640 --> 01:24:27,159
using the Unitarian Pharisee example, and that's why he didn't

1149
01:24:27,159 --> 01:24:29,600
want to go there. It's the same principle as the

1150
01:24:29,680 --> 01:24:33,520
Muslim denying the trinity and denying the deedy of Christ

1151
01:24:34,119 --> 01:24:36,640
and Jesus just flat out says you don't have the

1152
01:24:36,640 --> 01:24:40,000
love of God and you've lost you don't believe in me,

1153
01:24:40,159 --> 01:24:42,800
so you don't get the Father. Right. I'm the Way,

1154
01:24:42,840 --> 01:24:44,439
the Truth and alive. No one comes to the Father

1155
01:24:44,520 --> 01:24:48,000
except for me. So you can tout all day long,

1156
01:24:48,079 --> 01:24:51,359
who your unitarian God is that you worship, it's not

1157
01:24:51,399 --> 01:24:54,720
getting you anywhere, and it's not hitting upon or getting

1158
01:24:54,800 --> 01:24:56,720
you a channel to the One True God.

1159
01:24:58,000 --> 01:25:00,680
Speaker 4: One thing that I'd like to apologize to everybody in

1160
01:25:00,720 --> 01:25:04,239
the audience. Again, there's so much stuff going on. There's

1161
01:25:04,279 --> 01:25:07,319
so many points that you want to put in. If

1162
01:25:07,359 --> 01:25:10,039
I could redo it, I would have added this point.

1163
01:25:11,520 --> 01:25:14,800
There's a way that somebody knows and doesn't know God.

1164
01:25:15,079 --> 01:25:20,000
So when they're referring to floteening the woman at the well,

1165
01:25:22,640 --> 01:25:26,520
you worship the unknown God, right, or whether it's uh,

1166
01:25:26,800 --> 01:25:33,880
Saint Paul on the yeah, the Mars Hill, you have

1167
01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:37,680
to understand go back to Saint Paul and he says that,

1168
01:25:38,439 --> 01:25:40,479
you know, God is clearly.

1169
01:25:40,199 --> 01:25:42,039
Speaker 2: Manifest to all.

1170
01:25:42,520 --> 01:25:47,159
Speaker 4: He's not saying to the philosopher's He's saying, yeah, such

1171
01:25:47,239 --> 01:25:48,960
that everyone's without excuse.

1172
01:25:49,520 --> 01:25:51,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not just played on Aristotle, right.

1173
01:25:51,840 --> 01:25:54,680
Speaker 4: He's not saying, oh, only those who read that we're

1174
01:25:54,760 --> 01:25:59,880
able to do a cosmological argument, you know from you know,

1175
01:26:00,079 --> 01:26:03,680
sense experience and deduced to a first cause or with

1176
01:26:03,760 --> 01:26:05,840
the excuse he seemed everybody is.

1177
01:26:06,560 --> 01:26:10,520
Speaker 2: So what that shows us is that, well, there's two

1178
01:26:10,560 --> 01:26:11,720
different senses of knowing.

1179
01:26:12,840 --> 01:26:14,760
Speaker 1: Well, I don't mean to be rude, but I said

1180
01:26:14,760 --> 01:26:16,640
this in the debate. Did you not hear me say that?

1181
01:26:18,439 --> 01:26:20,840
Speaker 2: Well, there was so much stuff. I did hear it.

1182
01:26:20,960 --> 01:26:23,600
Whether I remember it right now, it's a different question.

1183
01:26:23,720 --> 01:26:25,960
Speaker 1: I said that I know my wife. That's different than

1184
01:26:25,960 --> 01:26:29,479
knowing about my wife. Jake the Muslim metaphysician knows the

1185
01:26:29,600 --> 01:26:33,079
Orthodox Trinity, but Jake the muscle does. Jake the Muslim

1186
01:26:33,279 --> 01:26:36,560
metaphysician has an abstract conceptual knowledge of the Trinity, but

1187
01:26:36,640 --> 01:26:39,479
he explicitly does not love a door or worship at Trinity.

1188
01:26:39,880 --> 01:26:42,600
Speaker 4: But what I want to say specifically is the noetic

1189
01:26:42,760 --> 01:26:45,880
knowledge that's in the heart of every even in a

1190
01:26:46,000 --> 01:26:47,520
child right right, and.

1191
01:26:47,800 --> 01:26:51,760
Speaker 2: Think Paul says, through their unrighteousness they suppress.

1192
01:26:52,279 --> 01:26:58,520
Speaker 4: Now, unrighteousness doesn't just include, you know, licenseous behavior.

1193
01:26:59,560 --> 01:27:01,239
Speaker 2: You can have a unrighteous thought.

1194
01:27:02,399 --> 01:27:05,479
Speaker 4: And so what we see, what Saint Paul is saying

1195
01:27:05,640 --> 01:27:10,199
is that we all know God in our hearts. Then

1196
01:27:10,239 --> 01:27:14,479
what do we do. We build system and idols and

1197
01:27:14,520 --> 01:27:17,960
we start to suppress that knowledge. So what we were

1198
01:27:18,000 --> 01:27:23,640
critiquing in the debate, because I can't see somebody's heart

1199
01:27:24,199 --> 01:27:26,520
and what they actually know in their heart of God.

1200
01:27:27,239 --> 01:27:29,039
Speaker 2: The only thing that publicly.

1201
01:27:28,520 --> 01:27:33,119
Speaker 4: Accessible is the philosophical and religious language that they provide

1202
01:27:33,159 --> 01:27:36,439
to me. And then I can say, well, that language

1203
01:27:36,520 --> 01:27:39,239
right there doesn't refer.

1204
01:27:40,479 --> 01:27:41,960
Speaker 2: To the true God.

1205
01:27:42,479 --> 01:27:45,439
Speaker 4: I can say that while still saying at the same time, well,

1206
01:27:45,439 --> 01:27:48,880
how do the Pagans worship? You know, like worship or

1207
01:27:49,039 --> 01:27:52,039
like know God? It's like, because everybody knows it in

1208
01:27:52,079 --> 01:27:56,720
their heart. But if the conversation was about so, notice

1209
01:27:56,760 --> 01:27:58,079
the fallacy of equivocation.

1210
01:27:58,239 --> 01:27:59,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, is equivocating on no?

1211
01:28:00,560 --> 01:28:05,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like yeah, but we're talking about the system

1212
01:28:06,279 --> 01:28:09,439
and the paradigm and the public third personal languge.

1213
01:28:09,479 --> 01:28:12,000
Speaker 1: That's why I kept saying that the problem is Vatican

1214
01:28:12,039 --> 01:28:15,840
two saying worship and adore. If Vatican two had restricted

1215
01:28:15,840 --> 01:28:20,399
the language to Muslims have a conception of a single God, right,

1216
01:28:21,159 --> 01:28:24,000
that's not. But it goes beyond that and says together

1217
01:28:24,199 --> 01:28:28,479
with us Catholics, Muslims adore the One True God.

1218
01:28:29,439 --> 01:28:31,880
Speaker 4: And keep in mind too, I find it really interesting

1219
01:28:31,920 --> 01:28:35,000
that Eric Voglin says that the neo gnostic and these

1220
01:28:35,079 --> 01:28:37,720
kind of modern systems.

1221
01:28:38,640 --> 01:28:41,960
Speaker 2: Always use word play like Cagle.

1222
01:28:41,840 --> 01:28:47,960
Speaker 4: Bounces between equivocation on different words to basically conceal the

1223
01:28:48,000 --> 01:28:48,560
crime that.

1224
01:28:48,520 --> 01:28:51,680
Speaker 2: They're actually doing. And this is a perfect example what

1225
01:28:51,800 --> 01:28:52,359
Catholics do.

1226
01:28:53,159 --> 01:28:55,760
Speaker 1: It's like, no, it's the same with logos.

1227
01:28:55,800 --> 01:28:58,399
Speaker 2: Well, look at it. Look what they're doing. We obviously see.

1228
01:28:58,800 --> 01:29:01,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, but if this word means is this you see

1229
01:29:01,319 --> 01:29:05,239
and all of it is smoking mirrors.

1230
01:29:05,640 --> 01:29:07,720
Speaker 1: This is the same debate that I had with all

1231
01:29:07,760 --> 01:29:11,920
of these Roman Catholics in twenty eighteen when emj was

1232
01:29:11,960 --> 01:29:15,000
going around talking about logos and logos theology, and he

1233
01:29:15,079 --> 01:29:17,680
was trying to argue with a lot of Pagans and

1234
01:29:17,760 --> 01:29:22,079
people interested in philosophy and saying, look, John, one in

1235
01:29:22,119 --> 01:29:24,199
the beginning was the logos, The logos was with God,

1236
01:29:24,239 --> 01:29:28,479
et cetera. That's the same as when Marcus Aurelius and

1237
01:29:28,520 --> 01:29:32,760
the Pagans use the word logos. It's not. The difference

1238
01:29:32,840 --> 01:29:35,760
is that he's saying, you got it wrong. You mentioned

1239
01:29:35,760 --> 01:29:39,159
this word logos in your philosophical system, and you guys

1240
01:29:39,199 --> 01:29:41,880
have it all wrong. It's not an immaterial and personal force.

1241
01:29:42,039 --> 01:29:45,479
Speaker 4: And that's exactly what St. Paul and even the woman

1242
01:29:45,520 --> 01:29:46,560
in the wells.

1243
01:29:46,239 --> 01:29:49,760
Speaker 1: Well two Corinthians one. We tear down these foolish world views, right,

1244
01:29:50,840 --> 01:29:56,640
he says, where is the worldly man? Let's read this past?

1245
01:29:56,720 --> 01:30:03,399
It's really good? Or is it? First Corinthians.

1246
01:30:06,520 --> 01:30:10,199
Speaker 2: Us or Corinthians one?

1247
01:30:10,439 --> 01:30:14,560
Speaker 1: Frank Pole? Where is the wise man of this age?

1248
01:30:14,720 --> 01:30:18,319
Where's the scribe? Where's the disputer? God has made foolish

1249
01:30:18,720 --> 01:30:22,960
the wisdom of this world, since through this world's wisdom,

1250
01:30:22,960 --> 01:30:26,520
here's the natural theology, this world did not know God.

1251
01:30:26,560 --> 01:30:29,119
I'll wait a minute, I thought they did. We'll stop

1252
01:30:29,159 --> 01:30:34,000
equivocating on the word no, and this won't be a problem.

1253
01:30:34,319 --> 01:30:42,479
Jews seek signs, Greeks want wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, Amen.

1254
01:30:43,159 --> 01:30:48,479
So we don't need the hellenic wisdom to figure out

1255
01:30:48,840 --> 01:30:54,439
who God is. And right here we prefer Vatican Vatican too.

1256
01:30:54,439 --> 01:30:58,680
Excuse me, said is right here along with us. They

1257
01:30:58,720 --> 01:31:02,119
adore the One Merciful God with us Catholics. So in

1258
01:31:02,159 --> 01:31:05,039
other words, this is the passage. And I sent this

1259
01:31:05,079 --> 01:31:08,079
to Tim again tonight, I said, Tim, this is the

1260
01:31:08,079 --> 01:31:11,119
passage that you've ignored the entire time. You've deflected onto

1261
01:31:11,359 --> 01:31:14,520
linguistic theories of Fraga and all this. None of that

1262
01:31:14,560 --> 01:31:20,520
matters when Battican two says that Muslims worship along with

1263
01:31:20,680 --> 01:31:24,720
us Catholics, the One True God, and again, worship and

1264
01:31:24,800 --> 01:31:29,119
adoration is not mental essense to propetition propositions like you

1265
01:31:29,159 --> 01:31:35,319
guys think. It means having a connection too and a worship.

1266
01:31:35,520 --> 01:31:39,319
It assumes that that God worships, that accepts that worship,

1267
01:31:39,680 --> 01:31:42,920
because it says along with us. How is this not clear?

1268
01:31:43,520 --> 01:31:47,399
If I ask a Catholic, does God accept your worship?

1269
01:31:47,600 --> 01:31:51,279
Every Catholic will say yes. Well, this passage says that

1270
01:31:51,319 --> 01:31:54,479
the Muslims worship and adore God along with you, So

1271
01:31:54,600 --> 01:31:59,079
does God accept Muslim worship? Yes, they've been saying Muslims

1272
01:31:59,119 --> 01:32:03,600
worship and adore God, but they don't explicitly. That's the

1273
01:32:03,640 --> 01:32:15,399
point Again, Islam is predicated on verbally explicitly confessing and

1274
01:32:15,520 --> 01:32:19,359
rejecting Trinity and deeded Christ in the Qur'an.

1275
01:32:19,800 --> 01:32:21,840
Speaker 2: And that's not like I.

1276
01:32:21,840 --> 01:32:26,680
Speaker 4: Mean, it's amazing they're using Saint Fultini who didn't reject.

1277
01:32:28,239 --> 01:32:30,479
Speaker 1: Now this isn't even stronger argument in our favor.

1278
01:32:31,119 --> 01:32:34,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, a vague kind of knowledge versus somebody that's like, yeah,

1279
01:32:34,680 --> 01:32:40,159
but I specifically reject the trinity and all these attributes

1280
01:32:40,199 --> 01:32:41,319
that you say about God.

1281
01:32:41,680 --> 01:32:46,199
Speaker 1: She just says, she just says, our father Jacob gave

1282
01:32:46,319 --> 01:32:50,079
us a tradition and that's what we know to worship.

1283
01:32:50,720 --> 01:32:55,159
And Jesus says, you don't know who you're worshiping. You

1284
01:32:55,199 --> 01:32:58,760
don't know him. That's the point. Only a romancolol that

1285
01:32:58,760 --> 01:33:02,279
could take that passage and say, well, it says worshiping, Yeah,

1286
01:33:02,319 --> 01:33:05,760
I don't have a promise saying they worship. They worship

1287
01:33:06,039 --> 01:33:10,239
all kinds of false things. That's jesus rhetorical point. You

1288
01:33:10,359 --> 01:33:14,199
worship this idea you don't actually know God, because he

1289
01:33:14,279 --> 01:33:18,359
says for salvation is of the Jews. We do know

1290
01:33:19,399 --> 01:33:22,560
who and what we worship. We worship the Father. You

1291
01:33:22,600 --> 01:33:25,840
worship an idea, you don't know God. That's the point.

1292
01:33:25,960 --> 01:33:28,119
Only Robin Calvius could take that and make that the

1293
01:33:28,159 --> 01:33:31,199
opposite of the passages, meaning and they do the same thing.

1294
01:33:31,239 --> 01:33:35,319
In Acts seventeen, Paul walks to the areopagus. There's all

1295
01:33:35,359 --> 01:33:39,439
these idols everywhere, and he says, I saw an inscription

1296
01:33:39,560 --> 01:33:43,000
on one of your idols. This is a rhetorical point.

1297
01:33:43,359 --> 01:33:47,560
It says the unknown God, the one that you worship

1298
01:33:48,039 --> 01:33:52,840
without knowing. So they're equivocating on two senses of no

1299
01:33:53,840 --> 01:33:57,439
and saying, see, they know God. The whole point of

1300
01:33:57,479 --> 01:34:02,439
the passage is the one that you don't know. You

1301
01:34:02,600 --> 01:34:03,640
do not know him.

1302
01:34:03,960 --> 01:34:05,319
Speaker 2: So what did I tell you?

1303
01:34:05,319 --> 01:34:09,319
Speaker 1: Your worship is listen, I'm sorry, the worship is in vain.

1304
01:34:10,640 --> 01:34:14,680
It is vain, idolatrous worship. Because he goes on to say,

1305
01:34:14,800 --> 01:34:18,680
you make the nature of God like gold and silver

1306
01:34:18,960 --> 01:34:22,680
and created things, but the divine nature is not like

1307
01:34:22,760 --> 01:34:26,000
any of those things. And so you worship a thing

1308
01:34:26,159 --> 01:34:33,079
that is like man's devising. So the thing you worship

1309
01:34:34,119 --> 01:34:39,239
is a thing you don't know. Oh, but they know

1310
01:34:39,319 --> 01:34:41,479
him because it's still the Trinity. And that's why Muslim's

1311
01:34:41,520 --> 01:34:46,159
worship attorney. Muslims explicitly reject attorney. That's how silly this is.

1312
01:34:47,680 --> 01:34:49,880
Speaker 4: So do you remember what I told you about what

1313
01:34:49,920 --> 01:34:52,960
my priest father Russell said. All of this is what

1314
01:34:53,000 --> 01:34:57,640
they call hunters call stocking horse, where you set up

1315
01:34:57,680 --> 01:35:04,439
a decoy and you the hunter sets out a fake

1316
01:35:04,600 --> 01:35:09,560
decoy horse or horse and hides behind it to test

1317
01:35:09,840 --> 01:35:13,840
the prey. Yes, how they respond, So you have to

1318
01:35:13,880 --> 01:35:20,640
understand that Roman Catholics are purposely using this equivocation right

1319
01:35:20,760 --> 01:35:21,840
to test the.

1320
01:35:21,760 --> 01:35:24,359
Speaker 2: Waters to be like, can I actually strike?

1321
01:35:24,479 --> 01:35:28,840
Speaker 4: Can I actually and then well, look if the praise

1322
01:35:28,920 --> 01:35:32,479
gonna get I e us gets scared and.

1323
01:35:32,720 --> 01:35:35,319
Speaker 2: Come back, then we'll be like, well, then that's not

1324
01:35:35,359 --> 01:35:35,960
what we meant.

1325
01:35:36,000 --> 01:35:38,680
Speaker 4: You see, we meant by know that, like in this

1326
01:35:38,840 --> 01:35:42,640
generic sense, this philosophical reference.

1327
01:35:42,640 --> 01:35:45,880
Speaker 2: And you see, but it's obvious, you.

1328
01:35:45,800 --> 01:35:48,920
Speaker 4: See what they're doing, right, And I think that's a

1329
01:35:48,960 --> 01:35:52,079
really good analogy, the stalking horse, like putting it out

1330
01:35:52,119 --> 01:35:55,800
there and then using the ambiguity of language.

1331
01:35:55,840 --> 01:35:57,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're equivocating on no. Just like the guy in

1332
01:35:57,880 --> 01:36:00,560
the chat Justin is making the exact same argument and

1333
01:36:00,600 --> 01:36:04,159
saying but it says they know God, you're equivocating. Do

1334
01:36:04,159 --> 01:36:07,439
you know what equivocation is? It's trading between two different

1335
01:36:07,479 --> 01:36:10,319
senses of a word. And that's the whole point we're making,

1336
01:36:10,439 --> 01:36:16,520
is that you can have again, Justin, I told you this.

1337
01:36:16,520 --> 01:36:19,800
This is the same point earlier with Jake. Jake the

1338
01:36:19,880 --> 01:36:24,039
Muslim metaphysician knows the Trinity, does he worship and adore

1339
01:36:24,079 --> 01:36:27,960
the Trinity? No, So it's two different senses.

1340
01:36:27,600 --> 01:36:33,800
Speaker 4: Of no, and way you have to realize that the

1341
01:36:33,880 --> 01:36:35,880
Roman Catholics are doing this on purpose.

1342
01:36:36,840 --> 01:36:38,560
Speaker 2: Their system is at least.

1343
01:36:38,479 --> 01:36:42,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, natural theology is predicated on this ambiguity. It's

1344
01:36:42,319 --> 01:36:43,520
abating switch.

1345
01:36:44,399 --> 01:36:48,960
Speaker 4: You can obviously see if you see the pope praying.

1346
01:36:49,399 --> 01:36:52,399
Speaker 2: With Muslims, well, but that's not really what it means.

1347
01:36:52,439 --> 01:36:52,840
You see.

1348
01:36:53,920 --> 01:36:56,399
Speaker 4: That is the stucking horse that you're putting out there.

1349
01:36:56,439 --> 01:36:58,640
But like, welly can you use the language and equivo

1350
01:36:58,680 --> 01:37:01,680
kate on and be like, wow, you see the logical

1351
01:37:01,800 --> 01:37:05,760
terms of the semantic reference. We're not really worshiping and

1352
01:37:05,840 --> 01:37:06,720
you can dial it back.

1353
01:37:06,960 --> 01:37:07,920
Speaker 2: Well, it's not that the.

1354
01:37:07,880 --> 01:37:13,560
Speaker 4: Pope's really blessing same sex marriages. We can that's stalking horse.

1355
01:37:14,359 --> 01:37:17,319
Speaker 1: The whole religion is all of this need to fall

1356
01:37:17,399 --> 01:37:19,800
for this, like well, that's why they're all liars, is

1357
01:37:19,840 --> 01:37:25,279
that they lie to make this system work. And the

1358
01:37:25,319 --> 01:37:29,760
Pope is acting on this document right here.

1359
01:37:30,000 --> 01:37:32,439
Speaker 2: And we know what the last two popes believe.

1360
01:37:32,760 --> 01:37:35,399
Speaker 4: This is so stupid that all of you have the

1361
01:37:35,479 --> 01:37:37,439
Pope's pointing and be like, well, that's not really what

1362
01:37:37,560 --> 01:37:39,760
he meant. It's like, but we know what he means,

1363
01:37:40,079 --> 01:37:44,840
we know what he believes, like you using, So what

1364
01:37:44,840 --> 01:37:49,279
do they do? They do the classic move of an abstraction. Well,

1365
01:37:49,359 --> 01:37:53,279
let's go to the analytic propositional meaning of the terms,

1366
01:37:53,319 --> 01:37:56,119
and that's not really what it means. Like when you're

1367
01:37:56,159 --> 01:37:58,560
looking and you're seeing the person committing the crime.

1368
01:38:00,399 --> 01:38:06,039
Speaker 2: Depends what you mean by is right? Like God to

1369
01:38:06,119 --> 01:38:08,560
help you? People like why do you fall for this?

1370
01:38:09,720 --> 01:38:11,119
Speaker 1: Well, it's like John one.

1371
01:38:11,079 --> 01:38:13,439
Speaker 2: The abstract world that's less real.

1372
01:38:13,640 --> 01:38:17,359
Speaker 4: Right, we won't get you do this logical propositional thing

1373
01:38:17,439 --> 01:38:20,920
and talk about terms, which is a slide of hands

1374
01:38:20,960 --> 01:38:24,960
to distract you, which is a demonic device, by the way,

1375
01:38:25,000 --> 01:38:27,479
from what you actually know when you're looking at the

1376
01:38:27,520 --> 01:38:28,840
person committing the crime.

1377
01:38:29,279 --> 01:38:33,119
Speaker 1: Let's get Paul's out. So notice that Greek Polytheism did

1378
01:38:33,159 --> 01:38:37,760
sacrifice to these entities. Okay, let's get more commentary and

1379
01:38:37,800 --> 01:38:41,560
explanation from Paul. In One Corinthians ten twenty, does Paul

1380
01:38:41,600 --> 01:38:45,720
believe that the gentiles and the pagan philosophers are worshiping

1381
01:38:45,800 --> 01:38:51,239
the one true God? No, he's saying, the gentiles and

1382
01:38:51,279 --> 01:38:55,560
you would sacrifice to Apollo. In one of the Platonic dialogues,

1383
01:38:56,159 --> 01:39:01,960
Socrates offers an animal sacrifice. Are they worship the one God? No,

1384
01:39:02,079 --> 01:39:05,680
it's offered to demons. The worship is to demons and

1385
01:39:05,760 --> 01:39:07,880
not to God first Greenia, ten twenty. I don't know

1386
01:39:07,880 --> 01:39:11,039
why this is so hard for Roman Catholics, but this

1387
01:39:11,119 --> 01:39:14,399
is what happens when you worship a delusion and a system,

1388
01:39:15,720 --> 01:39:18,600
and you double down and double down and double down

1389
01:39:21,680 --> 01:39:22,279
Martin Luther.

1390
01:39:22,439 --> 01:39:25,680
Speaker 4: None of the Roman Catholics were doing this until it

1391
01:39:25,800 --> 01:39:28,479
became kind of more obvious that like this was dog

1392
01:39:28,680 --> 01:39:29,399
they have to defend