WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:02.279 Here's another show you can enjoy in the True Story 2 00:00:02.359 --> 00:00:07.759 FM family of entertainment podcasts. Hey, Pete, ever wonder what 3 00:00:07.839 --> 00:00:09.519 Steven Spielberg's favorite film is? 4 00:00:09.800 --> 00:00:12.679 You know, Andy, I've heard he loves classics like Lawrence 5 00:00:12.720 --> 00:00:14.599 of Arabia, Meme, and Saint Louis. 6 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:18.359 Imagine chatting with him about why those films resonate with 7 00:00:18.440 --> 00:00:19.039 him so much. 8 00:00:19.199 --> 00:00:21.839 That's exactly what we do on our podcast Movies We Like. 9 00:00:22.280 --> 00:00:27.079 We've had incredible guests like actress Dee Wallace, cinematographer Eric Measureschmidt, 10 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:31.839 director Steve Miner, and former Disney animators Tom and Tony Bancroft. 11 00:00:32.119 --> 00:00:35.000 They share their favorite films and the impact they've had 12 00:00:35.039 --> 00:00:38.399 on their careers, offering fascinating insights into the craftsmanship and 13 00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:41.479 storytelling techniques that make these movies so special. 14 00:00:41.600 --> 00:00:44.840 If you're curious about the magic behind the scenes, subscribe 15 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:47.000 to Movies We Like from True Story FM on your 16 00:00:47.039 --> 00:00:50.399 favorite podcast app. New episodes are released on the fourth 17 00:00:50.439 --> 00:00:53.200 Monday of each month, with early access for our members. 18 00:00:53.520 --> 00:00:55.640 Join us on Movies we Like as we explore the 19 00:00:55.640 --> 00:00:58.200 movies we all like with the people who make them. 20 00:00:58.039 --> 00:01:00.880 And Stephen our people will call your people. Let's make 21 00:01:00.920 --> 00:01:02.200 this happen, Bobby. 22 00:01:02.200 --> 00:01:06.359 Subscribe today. 23 00:01:06.519 --> 00:01:08.480 What's up, Most Excellent Friends. 24 00:01:08.760 --> 00:01:12.239 It's Christy and Nathan from the Most Excellent Eighties Movies Podcast. 25 00:01:12.439 --> 00:01:15.400 It's a podcast where a filmmaker and a comedian and 26 00:01:15.439 --> 00:01:18.519 their most excellent guests adventure their way through the eighties 27 00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:21.480 movies we think we love or might have missed with 28 00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:23.680 our grown up eyes to see how they hold up. 29 00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:28.560 Join us for delightful discussion, rollicking recaps. 30 00:01:28.280 --> 00:01:32.359 Ratings, and deep cut recommendations. Plus members get some extra 31 00:01:32.439 --> 00:01:35.480 fun shit chat with the hosts after the show. Download 32 00:01:35.519 --> 00:01:38.879 The Most Excellent Eighties Movies Podcast today at true Story 33 00:01:38.959 --> 00:01:42.640 dot fm, or find it wherever the finest podcast are stored. 34 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:46.400 And do remember to keep the Most Excellent Eighties Movies Podcast. 35 00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:49.480 Motto in mind, be excellent to each other and party 36 00:01:49.959 --> 00:01:52.159 Yon Dude's. 37 00:01:54.959 --> 00:01:59.120 Hello and welcome to this last rebroadcast episode of Superhero Ethics. 38 00:01:59.560 --> 00:02:01.400 Next week we're going to be back talking about some 39 00:02:01.480 --> 00:02:03.840 new content. And because one of the things I know 40 00:02:03.879 --> 00:02:05.799 we're going to be talking about is season two of 41 00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:08.080 the Rings of Power, I wanted to bring you another 42 00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:11.520 chance to hear our conversation about season one of Rings 43 00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:14.960 of Power. This is where myself and Paul Hoppey dive 44 00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:17.919 into this show set in J. R. R. Token's world, 45 00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:21.960 but happening many many, many many centuries, I think even 46 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:25.800 millennia before the events of Lord of the Rings, showing 47 00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:28.560 you the start of all those events that led to 48 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:30.919 those movies by Peter Jackson. We love so much. There 49 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:32.840 was a lot to say about the first season. Things 50 00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:35.560 we liked, things we didn't. What's set up and I'm 51 00:02:35.560 --> 00:02:37.520 excited for myself to go back and hear it, and 52 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:39.759 hope you are too as we get ready or some 53 00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:41.879 of you may already be to watch what's happening in 54 00:02:41.919 --> 00:02:44.159 season two. So this is the content of season one. 55 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:46.280 Please check it out and we'll have new content for 56 00:02:46.360 --> 00:02:48.759 you coming out next week. Thank you so much. We 57 00:02:48.840 --> 00:02:53.680 have spoken three podcasts for the Star Wars fans under 58 00:02:53.719 --> 00:02:57.479 the Sky, seven for the Dwarf lords who talk about 59 00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:01.319 D and D. Nine podcast We're given to humans so 60 00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:03.639 they could talk about all the things that drive them 61 00:03:03.639 --> 00:03:06.680 crazy and bother them in this everyday world. But they 62 00:03:06.680 --> 00:03:09.919 were all of them deceived. For there was one podcast 63 00:03:10.039 --> 00:03:12.919 made by one host and one very much not a host, 64 00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:15.599 where they would talk about all of the things we've discussed, 65 00:03:15.759 --> 00:03:19.199 but today would talk particularly about the one episode to 66 00:03:19.319 --> 00:03:22.719 bring them all together, one episode to rule them, one 67 00:03:22.800 --> 00:03:26.960 episode to bind them all together in debate over non 68 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:30.080 human characters and how they are treated on screen and 69 00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:32.759 in the darkness, do something else to them because I 70 00:03:32.919 --> 00:03:35.240 just came up with idea a second ago. As you 71 00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:37.680 may have guessed, we will be discussing the Rings of Power. 72 00:03:37.919 --> 00:03:41.960 We will not be using pretentious ridiculously well as pretentious 73 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:44.240 as Paul and I normally are. We will be, but 74 00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:46.719 I will now stop trying to imitate Lord of the Rings. 75 00:03:46.960 --> 00:03:48.439 I'll just say we're gonna have a lot of fun 76 00:03:48.479 --> 00:03:51.560 talking about Rings of Power. And probably the ads are 77 00:03:51.560 --> 00:03:53.599 now gonna be at something about destroying the environment because 78 00:03:53.599 --> 00:03:55.719 that would be appropriate. So don't buy the stuff if 79 00:03:55.759 --> 00:03:57.960 it is, but like if it's cool, stuff by it, 80 00:03:58.000 --> 00:04:01.560 because then people will we'll get paid for the podcasts 81 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:03.960 and that's kind of fun. All right, goodbye ads. 82 00:04:05.159 --> 00:04:06.919 But they were all of them deceived. 83 00:04:07.400 --> 00:04:08.319 I said that already. 84 00:04:09.159 --> 00:04:10.319 I need to know. 85 00:04:15.800 --> 00:04:33.040 Were you deceived? We're not done yet. One more ad. 86 00:04:34.279 --> 00:04:38.000 Welcome back. I'm Matthew. You're Galadrielle, impersonator and podcast host. 87 00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:41.519 I'm joined as almost always by mister Paul. Happy Paul. 88 00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:42.800 How are we doing today? 89 00:04:43.839 --> 00:04:47.240 Yeah, doing pretty good? Ready to ready to talk about elves? 90 00:04:47.439 --> 00:04:49.480 Yeah, I'm excited for this. This was a show that 91 00:04:49.879 --> 00:04:54.079 we're talking obviously about, Rings of Power. The uh the 92 00:04:54.120 --> 00:04:57.800 show of the Lord of the Rings universe sets significantly 93 00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:03.279 before Lord of the Rings that was on Amazon. I 94 00:05:03.319 --> 00:05:05.399 want to say from the beginning, and Paul Tumm this 95 00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:09.519 may not be true for you, but I know the 96 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:12.839 story and I greatly enjoyed watching the story. I have 97 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:16.879 not read much of the text material that this was 98 00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:19.920 drawn from, nor have I read much of the text 99 00:05:19.959 --> 00:05:22.920 material that, to the consternation of many, this was not 100 00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:26.199 drawn from. So I think it's fair to say this 101 00:05:26.199 --> 00:05:29.360 podcast is gonna be about what we saw on screen 102 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:34.399 and analyzing that story, without getting too much into the many, many, 103 00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:37.519 many debates about how this relates to what is in 104 00:05:37.560 --> 00:05:39.839 written form. Is that accurate for your perspective as well? 105 00:05:41.240 --> 00:05:44.000 I think so. Yeah. I mean I do believe I 106 00:05:44.040 --> 00:05:47.959 read the appendices from which this was inspired, uh huh, 107 00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:50.519 as opposed to the Silmarillion, from which this was not 108 00:05:51.399 --> 00:05:56.759 legally allowed to draw. It's obviously it's like a super 109 00:05:56.800 --> 00:06:01.120 weird complex situation that I didn't even know about going in, 110 00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:04.759 and then someone mentioned I'm like, what, that doesn't make 111 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:08.560 any sense. But I'm happy to just discuss the show. 112 00:06:09.079 --> 00:06:11.439 You know, we could we could broadly talk a little 113 00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:15.279 bit about adaptations. And I think the idea is that 114 00:06:15.319 --> 00:06:21.600 this is supposed to gel with the the Peter Jackson movies, 115 00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:25.680 but not actually have share perfect continuity with them. Right. 116 00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:26.439 It sounds about right. 117 00:06:26.519 --> 00:06:32.519 It sounds about right, and it's kind it's more inspired 118 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:37.480 by the writings of Tolkien than it is a direct adaptation, 119 00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:41.160 is my understanding. And that's fine, And we can just 120 00:06:41.160 --> 00:06:43.639 talk about the show on its own exactly. And if 121 00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:46.720 people have feelings about all of those things, like, I 122 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:50.120 think that's totally legit. You know, I don't have super 123 00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:54.600 strong feelings. I've enjoyed some Tolkien in my life, you know, 124 00:06:55.279 --> 00:06:58.439 but I wouldn't say I have super strong feelings. So 125 00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:02.079 I respect that when people do, they do, especially if 126 00:07:02.079 --> 00:07:05.279 they express them in not super hostile toxic ways, but 127 00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:07.800 sort of like, hey, this isn't what I want exactly, 128 00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:08.839 like yeah, cool. 129 00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:11.920 And we actually did an episode a couple of weeks ago, 130 00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:14.879 couple of months, and we actually did an episode a 131 00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:18.680 couple of months ago, specifically about adaptations and sort of 132 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:21.399 fans and entitlement and like how we feel as fans 133 00:07:21.399 --> 00:07:23.480 when things that we love are not adapted the way 134 00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:25.839 we might like, and I woul definitely encourage checking that out, 135 00:07:25.879 --> 00:07:29.120 but yeah, today, let's mostly focus on this story itself 136 00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:32.759 and sort Where I was starting from was that I 137 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:35.000 watched the first couple of episodes of this with my partner, 138 00:07:35.839 --> 00:07:37.759 and granted it was coming out at a time that 139 00:07:37.839 --> 00:07:41.199 a lot of other things are coming out. I think 140 00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:43.439 Wheel of Time was still kind of finishing up, which 141 00:07:43.480 --> 00:07:45.680 I was sort of trying to follow but having trouble with. 142 00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:49.160 How so the Dragon was coming out and or started 143 00:07:49.160 --> 00:07:51.839 coming out, there was a lot of content happening at 144 00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:54.480 the time that this show was coming out, as well 145 00:07:54.519 --> 00:07:56.680 as just as I've said before, in general, I work 146 00:07:56.800 --> 00:07:59.879 much better binging some of these shows. So I kind 147 00:07:59.879 --> 00:08:02.879 of fell off after a couple of episodes, and then Paul, 148 00:08:02.920 --> 00:08:05.160 I remember you kind of like poking me a few times, 149 00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:06.959 asking me if I'd watched it and indicating that you 150 00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:09.360 wanted to talk about it, and finally I did. I 151 00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:12.079 binge it over a weekend with my partner, really enjoyed 152 00:08:12.079 --> 00:08:14.800 it thought, especially after the first couple episodes, it really 153 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:17.120 kind of got rolling and really got drawn into it 154 00:08:17.639 --> 00:08:19.879 and figured there's an awful lot to talk about. But 155 00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:21.240 I want to kind of start by giving you the 156 00:08:21.240 --> 00:08:23.480 ball and just start saying what was kind of your 157 00:08:23.480 --> 00:08:25.120 thoughts on the show and what made you excited to 158 00:08:25.120 --> 00:08:26.720 be talking about it on this podcast. 159 00:08:26.920 --> 00:08:29.920 Yeah. So it's funny because I kind of had the 160 00:08:29.920 --> 00:08:32.320 opposite experience with the show as you did. Like I 161 00:08:32.360 --> 00:08:36.759 wasn't expecting to see it. I briefly had access to 162 00:08:36.919 --> 00:08:40.120 Prime Video, so I was like, all right, this is on, Okay, 163 00:08:40.200 --> 00:08:42.840 let's see this. I watched the first two episodes. I 164 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:46.120 really enjoyed the first couple episodes, and then you know, 165 00:08:46.360 --> 00:08:51.159 also the next couple, and then I think I didn't 166 00:08:51.279 --> 00:08:53.879 enjoy it as much as it went on. It felt 167 00:08:53.879 --> 00:08:57.080 like there was a little bit more sort of contrivance 168 00:08:57.240 --> 00:09:00.000 and kind of things about the story. But there's certain 169 00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:02.639 things that I really loved about the series. And the 170 00:09:02.679 --> 00:09:06.600 main thing, especially in the beginning, was the idea that, 171 00:09:06.679 --> 00:09:12.240 like the main characters aren't humans, and they're they're supposed 172 00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:17.080 to be very specifically different from humans, right, and primarily 173 00:09:17.159 --> 00:09:21.720 elves but then also, you know, there's there's important Dwarves, 174 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:25.120 and you know, the Harfits who are like proto Hobbits 175 00:09:25.200 --> 00:09:32.159 basically right and personally, whenever I've read Fantasy or pretty 176 00:09:32.240 --> 00:09:34.960 much watched it on screen or like played, d and 177 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:38.960 d Elves have always been the characters that I related to, 178 00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:42.720 you know, And I mean a small part of that is, 179 00:09:42.840 --> 00:09:46.440 like the idea of immortality is greatly appealing to me 180 00:09:47.879 --> 00:09:52.039 just because I feel like there's not enough time. There is, 181 00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:54.639 there are not enough hours for all the things I 182 00:09:54.679 --> 00:09:57.799 want to do, you know. And if I had centuries 183 00:09:57.879 --> 00:10:00.399 or millennia like that, that would be such a I 184 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:02.159 wouldn't be like, oh, what am I going to you know, 185 00:10:02.399 --> 00:10:03.840 how am I going to squeeze things in? It would 186 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:05.679 be like, yeah, just you know, well, we'll catch up 187 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:07.840 again in twenty years. I gotta do this thing, you know, 188 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:10.519 just let me master a few skills and then then 189 00:10:10.519 --> 00:10:11.519 we'll start talking again. 190 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:12.159 Uh. 191 00:10:12.200 --> 00:10:15.159 And so one of the lines that like super resonated 192 00:10:15.399 --> 00:10:19.000 with me was like when when Elrond goes and meets 193 00:10:19.080 --> 00:10:23.720 Duran for the first time in two decades and Duran's like, 194 00:10:23.919 --> 00:10:27.639 it's been twenty years, and Elron's like has it only 195 00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:32.840 been twenty totally, And I just felt like that that 196 00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:35.519 felt so relatable to me, which is, you know, which 197 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:38.480 is funny because I mean, I am technically a human. 198 00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:43.159 I wouldn't say I like super closely identify with that 199 00:10:43.320 --> 00:10:46.240 as like an important part of my identity or anything, 200 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:49.639 but like, you know, it is like genetically a fact, right. 201 00:10:51.279 --> 00:10:56.399 But like I liked how, especially early on, I felt 202 00:10:56.440 --> 00:11:02.799 like el Rond and like Galadriel like were not just 203 00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:07.039 like normal human characters with poignty ears. I felt like 204 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:09.360 they went out of their way to actually make them 205 00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:13.720 feel more elfish, you know. And you know, in the 206 00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:16.200 in the original Lord of the Rings trilogy, like in 207 00:11:16.279 --> 00:11:19.320 Fellowship of the Ring, especially like Legoaliss was just always 208 00:11:19.320 --> 00:11:21.480 a character that just kind of not just like appealed 209 00:11:21.519 --> 00:11:23.840 to me, but just like felt like that's the character 210 00:11:23.919 --> 00:11:26.519 that I relate to in a lot of ways, you know. 211 00:11:27.399 --> 00:11:30.360 And it's this kind of like I feel like Elves 212 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:35.720 are like empathetic and thoughtful and intellectual, but also like 213 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:40.080 kind of detached, you know. And I I like the 214 00:11:40.120 --> 00:11:44.600 idea of having you know, a very different perspective of 215 00:11:44.679 --> 00:11:47.320 you know, of character. And it's like when you're dealing 216 00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:51.159 with not fantasy, with things directly related to our world. 217 00:11:51.200 --> 00:11:55.200 I think it's important to show all different types of people, right, 218 00:11:56.480 --> 00:11:59.679 not just in terms of like sort of like checkboxes 219 00:11:59.679 --> 00:12:03.320 of idea dentity, although I think that's important as well, 220 00:12:03.879 --> 00:12:07.080 but just like different perspectives, right, I think having characters 221 00:12:07.080 --> 00:12:10.399 coming from different perspectives is just really important. And so 222 00:12:10.519 --> 00:12:13.960 I thought this show in the beginning largely did a 223 00:12:14.039 --> 00:12:17.360 very good job, with the exception of like that scene 224 00:12:17.399 --> 00:12:19.200 of like the other elves like teasing her when she 225 00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:20.919 was a little kid, that felt a little weird to me, 226 00:12:21.159 --> 00:12:23.799 but like overall, early on, I felt like they were 227 00:12:23.799 --> 00:12:27.399 really establishing like these are elves. The Elvin experience is 228 00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:32.279 broadly different from the human experience, and I enjoy that. 229 00:12:32.360 --> 00:12:35.519 I enjoyed getting to see that centered in a story, 230 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:38.080 right as opposed to you know, you've got the elf 231 00:12:38.120 --> 00:12:40.360 and that's kind of not a side character but like 232 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:43.200 a secondary character in a lot of stories. 233 00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:44.759 And I totally get where you're coming from there. I 234 00:12:44.799 --> 00:12:48.120 really enjoy that, although humorously for kind of different reasons. 235 00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:50.519 You know. Well, first of all, I should say I 236 00:12:50.600 --> 00:12:54.639 understand that you you you grumpily reluctantly identify as human. 237 00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:58.039 I do want to point out that the official kind 238 00:12:58.039 --> 00:13:01.000 of like you know, scientific classification of huge human describes 239 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:04.559 them as a bipedal species. I am not bipedal. I 240 00:13:04.639 --> 00:13:07.200 only have one foot, so I think technically I am 241 00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:09.720 actually further from the definition of human than you are. 242 00:13:10.600 --> 00:13:13.240 But that that's that's a quibble for another time, as 243 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:16.320 numerous scientists quickly on follow us. 244 00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:19.360 But yeah, I mean you might you might say that 245 00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:22.200 that's a little bit of an ablest, you know, description, 246 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:24.879 or a kind of narrow one, right, I. 247 00:13:24.840 --> 00:13:27.840 Just look your bipeds. I'm a monopod also known as 248 00:13:27.879 --> 00:13:34.039 a moped, so I'm superior. But the real funny part 249 00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:36.519 is that throughound our friendship, we've often commented on this. 250 00:13:36.799 --> 00:13:39.039 You're an elf and I'm very much a dwarf. And 251 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:41.960 I really did enjoy getting to watch because I think 252 00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:46.200 one of the things that so often happens is, as 253 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:50.159 you were saying, not only are like elves the sort 254 00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:53.120 of weird character where the humans are the point of view, 255 00:13:54.279 --> 00:13:57.639 but the elves are defined specifically in how they are 256 00:13:57.639 --> 00:14:01.600 different from humans. And what's happening there is Humanity is 257 00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:04.559 set up as the normal by which every other race 258 00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:08.879 is measured, and so having so much of the story 259 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:10.600 first of all, be about a bunch of a bunch 260 00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:13.200 of hardfoots who have no contact with any of these 261 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:19.639 other races, and then also primarily about human about elves 262 00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:23.120 and dwarves and how they relate to each other. And 263 00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:25.080 then when the elves and the humans you relate to 264 00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:28.440 each other, it's mostly not about them being different kinds 265 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:30.000 of races, but a lot of it's about like their 266 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:32.919 shared history and a lot of tension because of that history. 267 00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:36.759 I really really loved that, and I really it felt 268 00:14:36.840 --> 00:14:38.279 very different, I think in many of those same ways 269 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:41.360 you're saying. And I think especially the thing I really 270 00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:44.799 loved is that in a lot of fantasy and especially 271 00:14:44.840 --> 00:14:47.720 a lot of science fiction, and this is true even 272 00:14:47.799 --> 00:14:50.440 one of my favorite shows, Babylon Five, but like in 273 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:53.600 Babylon Five, in Star Trek and a lot of these shows, 274 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:58.000 there's kind of a degree of human exceptionalism where it's 275 00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:01.600 always like humans are the new on the block, all 276 00:15:01.639 --> 00:15:04.879 these older races are out there, but also humans are 277 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:09.360 just so like sometimes it's just our ability to build communities, 278 00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:11.080 or it's that we're just so plucky and that we, 279 00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:13.759 you know, will never get knocked down, We'll always get 280 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:17.080 back up and that always or just like for some whatever, 281 00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:21.360 you know, the gods or fate or the computers, humans 282 00:15:21.399 --> 00:15:25.080 are required for the destiny of the universe or the galaxy. 283 00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:28.159 Right, the ability to think illogically. 284 00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:30.919 Right, Yeah, exactly, Like the Vulcans often talk about that 285 00:15:30.919 --> 00:15:32.679 that like you just need a human who will do 286 00:15:32.799 --> 00:15:34.759 the dumb out of the out of the box thing, 287 00:15:36.519 --> 00:15:40.200 and like I get that, But it was really nice 288 00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:43.919 to be in a world where humanity is mostly defined 289 00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:47.440 by people because they were on the wrong side the 290 00:15:47.559 --> 00:15:50.120 last time that good and evil lined up against each 291 00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:53.600 other in this universe. And clearly it's not just that 292 00:15:53.679 --> 00:15:56.559 humans are evil. There's a lot that was going on, 293 00:15:56.759 --> 00:15:58.600 and there's a lot of tension in terms of like 294 00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:01.600 maybe humanity did because they were getting kicked around by 295 00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:04.480 all the other races because they were younger and less powerful, 296 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:07.360 or maybe even if like what the humans did back 297 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:10.600 then was terrible, there's clearly some like discrimination against them, 298 00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:13.679 and like I think the humans have some legitimacy to 299 00:16:13.720 --> 00:16:17.120 their tension with the elves and the dwarfs, particularly on Numanor, 300 00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:21.000 but it just all felt so much more complex than 301 00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:23.480 the way that these stories normally told in a way 302 00:16:23.480 --> 00:16:26.000 that I really appreciated, and in a way where like 303 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:29.120 I felt like the character. I felt like the fact 304 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:31.519 that a character was human didn't mean that was the 305 00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:33.639 character I was supposed to relate to. Most. 306 00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:38.799 Yeah, I'm one hundred percent in agreement on that regard. 307 00:16:39.879 --> 00:16:43.080 You know, there were humans who I think the audience 308 00:16:43.159 --> 00:16:45.879 was meant to relate to and were, to some extent 309 00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:50.399 point of view, characters, right, But it wasn't like, oh, 310 00:16:50.440 --> 00:16:52.879 they're humans, so they're the ones that matter the most. 311 00:16:53.039 --> 00:16:55.399 I mean, I guess in Lord of the Rings it's 312 00:16:55.399 --> 00:16:57.600 like it's the Hobbits who are supposed to be actually 313 00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:02.000 kind of the exceptional, right spite being unexceptionable. But I 314 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:02.679 think they're kind. 315 00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:05.200 Of in that world, they're the English very much right, 316 00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:07.559 exactly exactly from the Shire. 317 00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:16.319 So yeah, I really do enjoy the the dynamics between 318 00:17:16.839 --> 00:17:21.000 the different groups, where, you know, the new Menorians I 319 00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:26.839 feel like, are little It feels to me like they 320 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:30.519 became very isolationists in a way that doesn't feel like 321 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:34.400 it was necessarily warranted, Like that was maybe just them 322 00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:38.559 kind of moving into something that I think of as 323 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:43.599 like a fairly negative thing like in their more recent history, especially, 324 00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:47.079 it seems was the implication. But the humans of the 325 00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:50.400 Southland like they were on like the wrong side, right, 326 00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:53.839 they were on what's his face? 327 00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:59.640 Yeah, the person who was defeated before Saurun came along, 328 00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:01.960 who like some one was like working for him or something. 329 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:04.319 They established him was the big bad early on. But 330 00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:06.359 it's more God thank you. 331 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:10.599 Yeah, more Goth, which I guess probably has the same 332 00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:13.680 route as like more Door. Yeah, which right now I 333 00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:16.160 feel like I am unable to pronounce, but like sometimes 334 00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:19.519 I can. I will say I really enjoyed that. It 335 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:22.359 felt like they were very deliberate with the pronunciation. Yes 336 00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:26.160 of like especially the rs right or like very very 337 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:30.880 different from typical English ours. But yeah, it felt to 338 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:36.279 me like, you know, the humans of the Southland like 339 00:18:36.279 --> 00:18:39.039 like yeah, they were they were on more Goth's side, 340 00:18:39.160 --> 00:18:43.039 but like also the elves. It kind of feels like 341 00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:45.880 the elves were sort of colonizers at the same time. Yeah, 342 00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:48.640 you know, yeah, And I think it's unclear when the 343 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:50.160 humans like sprung up. 344 00:18:50.599 --> 00:18:53.359 But so let me talk about newmen Our first, because 345 00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:54.799 that's I think a really interesting place. So I have 346 00:18:55.160 --> 00:19:00.480 questioning because I think I agree with you that from 347 00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:04.440 let me actually wack up again. For me, I think 348 00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:07.079 I totally understand what you're coming from about not loving 349 00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:11.279 that the Newminorians are so isolationist. I think for me, 350 00:19:12.759 --> 00:19:15.720 I was frustrated because I felt like, yeah, with a 351 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:18.839 little information, we knew it wouldn't make sense for the 352 00:19:18.920 --> 00:19:22.599 Newmonorians to be quite so isolationist. I think the implication 353 00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:24.680 was supposed to be that there was a whole bunch 354 00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:28.319 of backstory that we weren't being told. And here the 355 00:19:28.359 --> 00:19:31.440 frustration is actually I think part of kind of maybe 356 00:19:31.480 --> 00:19:33.279 it's the price to pay, but I think it's worthwhile 357 00:19:33.400 --> 00:19:35.759 of the of the good stuff we're talking about. It's 358 00:19:35.799 --> 00:19:39.319 because the Newminorians aren't the point of view characters glad 359 00:19:39.319 --> 00:19:42.319 Trails and the people should come and and you know, 360 00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:46.680 the boat captain is Heeldor's father, like they're somewhat but 361 00:19:46.759 --> 00:19:50.400 even he is somewhat kind of set aside, and so 362 00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:55.559 like I kind of kept feeling like I wished we 363 00:19:55.640 --> 00:19:59.640 had time to learn more about the history between the 364 00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:03.160 l Numanor and sort of what had happened, because it 365 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:06.880 it sounded like, you know, probably both sides had been 366 00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:11.079 not great but then once the isolation began over a 367 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:14.400 hundreds of years of history, both sides are telling the 368 00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:17.000 story their way, and both sides are getting locked into 369 00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:19.079 our way is right, and you know, it's just the 370 00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:22.599 kind of the way that cycle can come about. Yeah, 371 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:25.079 And I think I think I would. 372 00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:25.519 Have liked that. 373 00:20:25.640 --> 00:20:27.400 If I had one frustration about the show is that 374 00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:30.160 I felt some of those storylines, particularly that one, was rushed, 375 00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:34.279 because you're right, it did feel like we didn't get 376 00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:36.960 enough of the New Menorian story for it to make 377 00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:40.519 sense why they were so anti Elf. But it also 378 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:45.720 felt like like there was a scene between the Elf 379 00:20:46.279 --> 00:20:49.680 when the Queen of Numenor and Gladriel are kind of 380 00:20:49.720 --> 00:20:53.839 confronting each other, and both of them, I'm like, wait, wait, 381 00:20:53.880 --> 00:20:56.640 if you just explain yourself like two or three more sentences, 382 00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:00.519 all of this hostility can go away, Like okay, we 383 00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:02.359 just have to be hostile and try to break each 384 00:21:02.359 --> 00:21:07.759 other's plans immediately, Like yeah, but it was frustrating to me. 385 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:10.359 But it felt frustrating in a it didn't feel like 386 00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:12.720 bad writing to me. It felt like there's clearly an 387 00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:15.920 established thing as to why these characters acting in this way. 388 00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:20.440 Right, It didn't feel like like, well, why don't they 389 00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:22.160 just talk to each other about this, like so the 390 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:24.279 story can happen. It's like it wasn't It wasn't that. 391 00:21:24.680 --> 00:21:28.279 It was like it was no. This is how these people. 392 00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:32.559 These people are both very stubborn, right, Miriel and kaladreal 393 00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:38.920 Like they're both like very not not like I'm going 394 00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:41.880 to listen a bunch and then think and then speak, 395 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:47.000 you know. It's like this is they're both very dug 396 00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:49.160 into their point of view. Although I will say, like 397 00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:53.200 Muriel like did change her mind, right, I mean she 398 00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:57.440 she did get convinced to, you know, go off to 399 00:21:57.599 --> 00:22:03.160 war with the you know, which it's funny, like the 400 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:06.759 whole thing of like, you know, Galadriel is like, hey, 401 00:22:06.839 --> 00:22:09.440