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Speaker 5: Hello and welcome to this last rebroadcast episode of Superhero Ethics.
Speaker 5: Next week we're going to be back talking about some
Speaker 5: new content. And because one of the things I know
Speaker 5: we're going to be talking about is season two of
Speaker 5: the Rings of Power, I wanted to bring you another
Speaker 5: chance to hear our conversation about season one of Rings
Speaker 5: of Power. This is where myself and Paul Hoppey dive
Speaker 5: into this show set in J. R. R. Token's world,
Speaker 5: but happening many many, many many centuries, I think even
Speaker 5: millennia before the events of Lord of the Rings, showing
Speaker 5: you the start of all those events that led to
Speaker 5: those movies by Peter Jackson. We love so much. There
Speaker 5: was a lot to say about the first season. Things
Speaker 5: we liked, things we didn't. What's set up and I'm
Speaker 5: excited for myself to go back and hear it, and
Speaker 5: hope you are too as we get ready or some
Speaker 5: of you may already be to watch what's happening in
Speaker 5: season two. So this is the content of season one.
Speaker 5: Please check it out and we'll have new content for
Speaker 5: you coming out next week. Thank you so much. We
Speaker 5: have spoken three podcasts for the Star Wars fans under
Speaker 5: the Sky, seven for the Dwarf lords who talk about
Speaker 5: D and D. Nine podcast We're given to humans so
Speaker 5: they could talk about all the things that drive them
Speaker 5: crazy and bother them in this everyday world. But they
Speaker 5: were all of them deceived. For there was one podcast
Speaker 5: made by one host and one very much not a host,
Speaker 5: where they would talk about all of the things we've discussed,
Speaker 5: but today would talk particularly about the one episode to
Speaker 5: bring them all together, one episode to rule them, one
Speaker 5: episode to bind them all together in debate over non
Speaker 5: human characters and how they are treated on screen and
Speaker 5: in the darkness, do something else to them because I
Speaker 5: just came up with idea a second ago. As you
Speaker 5: may have guessed, we will be discussing the Rings of Power.
Speaker 5: We will not be using pretentious ridiculously well as pretentious
Speaker 5: as Paul and I normally are. We will be, but
Speaker 5: I will now stop trying to imitate Lord of the Rings.
Speaker 5: I'll just say we're gonna have a lot of fun
Speaker 5: talking about Rings of Power. And probably the ads are
Speaker 5: now gonna be at something about destroying the environment because
Speaker 5: that would be appropriate. So don't buy the stuff if
Speaker 5: it is, but like if it's cool, stuff by it,
Speaker 5: because then people will we'll get paid for the podcasts
Speaker 5: and that's kind of fun. All right, goodbye ads.
Speaker 4: But they were all of them deceived.
Speaker 5: I said that already.
Speaker 4: I need to know.
Speaker 5: Were you deceived? We're not done yet. One more ad.
Speaker 5: Welcome back. I'm Matthew. You're Galadrielle, impersonator and podcast host.
Speaker 5: I'm joined as almost always by mister Paul. Happy Paul.
Speaker 5: How are we doing today?
Speaker 4: Yeah, doing pretty good? Ready to ready to talk about elves?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm excited for this. This was a show that
Speaker 5: we're talking obviously about, Rings of Power. The uh the
Speaker 5: show of the Lord of the Rings universe sets significantly
Speaker 5: before Lord of the Rings that was on Amazon. I
Speaker 5: want to say from the beginning, and Paul Tumm this
Speaker 5: may not be true for you, but I know the
Speaker 5: story and I greatly enjoyed watching the story. I have
Speaker 5: not read much of the text material that this was
Speaker 5: drawn from, nor have I read much of the text
Speaker 5: material that, to the consternation of many, this was not
Speaker 5: drawn from. So I think it's fair to say this
Speaker 5: podcast is gonna be about what we saw on screen
Speaker 5: and analyzing that story, without getting too much into the many, many,
Speaker 5: many debates about how this relates to what is in
Speaker 5: written form. Is that accurate for your perspective as well?
Speaker 4: I think so. Yeah. I mean I do believe I
Speaker 4: read the appendices from which this was inspired, uh huh,
Speaker 4: as opposed to the Silmarillion, from which this was not
Speaker 4: legally allowed to draw. It's obviously it's like a super
Speaker 4: weird complex situation that I didn't even know about going in,
Speaker 4: and then someone mentioned I'm like, what, that doesn't make
Speaker 4: any sense. But I'm happy to just discuss the show.
Speaker 4: You know, we could we could broadly talk a little
Speaker 4: bit about adaptations. And I think the idea is that
Speaker 4: this is supposed to gel with the the Peter Jackson movies,
Speaker 4: but not actually have share perfect continuity with them. Right.
Speaker 5: It sounds about right.
Speaker 4: It sounds about right, and it's kind it's more inspired
Speaker 4: by the writings of Tolkien than it is a direct adaptation,
Speaker 4: is my understanding. And that's fine, And we can just
Speaker 4: talk about the show on its own exactly. And if
Speaker 4: people have feelings about all of those things, like, I
Speaker 4: think that's totally legit. You know, I don't have super
Speaker 4: strong feelings. I've enjoyed some Tolkien in my life, you know,
Speaker 4: but I wouldn't say I have super strong feelings. So
Speaker 4: I respect that when people do, they do, especially if
Speaker 4: they express them in not super hostile toxic ways, but
Speaker 4: sort of like, hey, this isn't what I want exactly,
Speaker 4: like yeah, cool.
Speaker 5: And we actually did an episode a couple of weeks ago,
Speaker 5: couple of months, and we actually did an episode a
Speaker 5: couple of months ago, specifically about adaptations and sort of
Speaker 5: fans and entitlement and like how we feel as fans
Speaker 5: when things that we love are not adapted the way
Speaker 5: we might like, and I woul definitely encourage checking that out,
Speaker 5: but yeah, today, let's mostly focus on this story itself
Speaker 5: and sort Where I was starting from was that I
Speaker 5: watched the first couple of episodes of this with my partner,
Speaker 5: and granted it was coming out at a time that
Speaker 5: a lot of other things are coming out. I think
Speaker 5: Wheel of Time was still kind of finishing up, which
Speaker 5: I was sort of trying to follow but having trouble with.
Speaker 5: How so the Dragon was coming out and or started
Speaker 5: coming out, there was a lot of content happening at
Speaker 5: the time that this show was coming out, as well
Speaker 5: as just as I've said before, in general, I work
Speaker 5: much better binging some of these shows. So I kind
Speaker 5: of fell off after a couple of episodes, and then Paul,
Speaker 5: I remember you kind of like poking me a few times,
Speaker 5: asking me if I'd watched it and indicating that you
Speaker 5: wanted to talk about it, and finally I did. I
Speaker 5: binge it over a weekend with my partner, really enjoyed
Speaker 5: it thought, especially after the first couple episodes, it really
Speaker 5: kind of got rolling and really got drawn into it
Speaker 5: and figured there's an awful lot to talk about. But
Speaker 5: I want to kind of start by giving you the
Speaker 5: ball and just start saying what was kind of your
Speaker 5: thoughts on the show and what made you excited to
Speaker 5: be talking about it on this podcast.
Speaker 4: Yeah. So it's funny because I kind of had the
Speaker 4: opposite experience with the show as you did. Like I
Speaker 4: wasn't expecting to see it. I briefly had access to
Speaker 4: Prime Video, so I was like, all right, this is on, Okay,
Speaker 4: let's see this. I watched the first two episodes. I
Speaker 4: really enjoyed the first couple episodes, and then you know,
Speaker 4: also the next couple, and then I think I didn't
Speaker 4: enjoy it as much as it went on. It felt
Speaker 4: like there was a little bit more sort of contrivance
Speaker 4: and kind of things about the story. But there's certain
Speaker 4: things that I really loved about the series. And the
Speaker 4: main thing, especially in the beginning, was the idea that,
Speaker 4: like the main characters aren't humans, and they're they're supposed
Speaker 4: to be very specifically different from humans, right, and primarily
Speaker 4: elves but then also, you know, there's there's important Dwarves,
Speaker 4: and you know, the Harfits who are like proto Hobbits
Speaker 4: basically right and personally, whenever I've read Fantasy or pretty
Speaker 4: much watched it on screen or like played, d and
Speaker 4: d Elves have always been the characters that I related to,
Speaker 4: you know, And I mean a small part of that is,
Speaker 4: like the idea of immortality is greatly appealing to me
Speaker 4: just because I feel like there's not enough time. There is,
Speaker 4: there are not enough hours for all the things I
Speaker 4: want to do, you know. And if I had centuries
Speaker 4: or millennia like that, that would be such a I
Speaker 4: wouldn't be like, oh, what am I going to you know,
Speaker 4: how am I going to squeeze things in? It would
Speaker 4: be like, yeah, just you know, well, we'll catch up
Speaker 4: again in twenty years. I gotta do this thing, you know,
Speaker 4: just let me master a few skills and then then
Speaker 4: we'll start talking again.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 4: And so one of the lines that like super resonated
Speaker 4: with me was like when when Elrond goes and meets
Speaker 4: Duran for the first time in two decades and Duran's like,
Speaker 4: it's been twenty years, and Elron's like has it only
Speaker 4: been twenty totally, And I just felt like that that
Speaker 4: felt so relatable to me, which is, you know, which
Speaker 4: is funny because I mean, I am technically a human.
Speaker 4: I wouldn't say I like super closely identify with that
Speaker 4: as like an important part of my identity or anything,
Speaker 4: but like, you know, it is like genetically a fact, right.
Speaker 4: But like I liked how, especially early on, I felt
Speaker 4: like el Rond and like Galadriel like were not just
Speaker 4: like normal human characters with poignty ears. I felt like
Speaker 4: they went out of their way to actually make them
Speaker 4: feel more elfish, you know. And you know, in the
Speaker 4: in the original Lord of the Rings trilogy, like in
Speaker 4: Fellowship of the Ring, especially like Legoaliss was just always
Speaker 4: a character that just kind of not just like appealed
Speaker 4: to me, but just like felt like that's the character
Speaker 4: that I relate to in a lot of ways, you know.
Speaker 4: And it's this kind of like I feel like Elves
Speaker 4: are like empathetic and thoughtful and intellectual, but also like
Speaker 4: kind of detached, you know. And I I like the
Speaker 4: idea of having you know, a very different perspective of
Speaker 4: you know, of character. And it's like when you're dealing
Speaker 4: with not fantasy, with things directly related to our world.
Speaker 4: I think it's important to show all different types of people, right,
Speaker 4: not just in terms of like sort of like checkboxes
Speaker 4: of idea dentity, although I think that's important as well,
Speaker 4: but just like different perspectives, right, I think having characters
Speaker 4: coming from different perspectives is just really important. And so
Speaker 4: I thought this show in the beginning largely did a
Speaker 4: very good job, with the exception of like that scene
Speaker 4: of like the other elves like teasing her when she
Speaker 4: was a little kid, that felt a little weird to me,
Speaker 4: but like overall, early on, I felt like they were
Speaker 4: really establishing like these are elves. The Elvin experience is
Speaker 4: broadly different from the human experience, and I enjoy that.
Speaker 4: I enjoyed getting to see that centered in a story,
Speaker 4: right as opposed to you know, you've got the elf
Speaker 4: and that's kind of not a side character but like
Speaker 4: a secondary character in a lot of stories.
Speaker 5: And I totally get where you're coming from there. I
Speaker 5: really enjoy that, although humorously for kind of different reasons.
Speaker 5: You know. Well, first of all, I should say I
Speaker 5: understand that you you you grumpily reluctantly identify as human.
Speaker 5: I do want to point out that the official kind
Speaker 5: of like you know, scientific classification of huge human describes
Speaker 5: them as a bipedal species. I am not bipedal. I
Speaker 5: only have one foot, so I think technically I am
Speaker 5: actually further from the definition of human than you are.
Speaker 5: But that that's that's a quibble for another time, as
Speaker 5: numerous scientists quickly on follow us.
Speaker 4: But yeah, I mean you might you might say that
Speaker 4: that's a little bit of an ablest, you know, description,
Speaker 4: or a kind of narrow one, right, I.
Speaker 5: Just look your bipeds. I'm a monopod also known as
Speaker 5: a moped, so I'm superior. But the real funny part
Speaker 5: is that throughound our friendship, we've often commented on this.
Speaker 5: You're an elf and I'm very much a dwarf. And
Speaker 5: I really did enjoy getting to watch because I think
Speaker 5: one of the things that so often happens is, as
Speaker 5: you were saying, not only are like elves the sort
Speaker 5: of weird character where the humans are the point of view,
Speaker 5: but the elves are defined specifically in how they are
Speaker 5: different from humans. And what's happening there is Humanity is
Speaker 5: set up as the normal by which every other race
Speaker 5: is measured, and so having so much of the story
Speaker 5: first of all, be about a bunch of a bunch
Speaker 5: of hardfoots who have no contact with any of these
Speaker 5: other races, and then also primarily about human about elves
Speaker 5: and dwarves and how they relate to each other. And
Speaker 5: then when the elves and the humans you relate to
Speaker 5: each other, it's mostly not about them being different kinds
Speaker 5: of races, but a lot of it's about like their
Speaker 5: shared history and a lot of tension because of that history.
Speaker 5: I really really loved that, and I really it felt
Speaker 5: very different, I think in many of those same ways
Speaker 5: you're saying. And I think especially the thing I really
Speaker 5: loved is that in a lot of fantasy and especially
Speaker 5: a lot of science fiction, and this is true even
Speaker 5: one of my favorite shows, Babylon Five, but like in
Speaker 5: Babylon Five, in Star Trek and a lot of these shows,
Speaker 5: there's kind of a degree of human exceptionalism where it's
Speaker 5: always like humans are the new on the block, all
Speaker 5: these older races are out there, but also humans are
Speaker 5: just so like sometimes it's just our ability to build communities,
Speaker 5: or it's that we're just so plucky and that we,
Speaker 5: you know, will never get knocked down, We'll always get
Speaker 5: back up and that always or just like for some whatever,
Speaker 5: you know, the gods or fate or the computers, humans
Speaker 5: are required for the destiny of the universe or the galaxy.
Speaker 4: Right, the ability to think illogically.
Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, exactly, Like the Vulcans often talk about that
Speaker 5: that like you just need a human who will do
Speaker 5: the dumb out of the out of the box thing,
Speaker 5: and like I get that, But it was really nice
Speaker 5: to be in a world where humanity is mostly defined
Speaker 5: by people because they were on the wrong side the
Speaker 5: last time that good and evil lined up against each
Speaker 5: other in this universe. And clearly it's not just that
Speaker 5: humans are evil. There's a lot that was going on,
Speaker 5: and there's a lot of tension in terms of like
Speaker 5: maybe humanity did because they were getting kicked around by
Speaker 5: all the other races because they were younger and less powerful,
Speaker 5: or maybe even if like what the humans did back
Speaker 5: then was terrible, there's clearly some like discrimination against them,
Speaker 5: and like I think the humans have some legitimacy to
Speaker 5: their tension with the elves and the dwarfs, particularly on Numanor,
Speaker 5: but it just all felt so much more complex than
Speaker 5: the way that these stories normally told in a way
Speaker 5: that I really appreciated, and in a way where like
Speaker 5: I felt like the character. I felt like the fact
Speaker 5: that a character was human didn't mean that was the
Speaker 5: character I was supposed to relate to. Most.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm one hundred percent in agreement on that regard.
Speaker 4: You know, there were humans who I think the audience
Speaker 4: was meant to relate to and were, to some extent
Speaker 4: point of view, characters, right, But it wasn't like, oh,
Speaker 4: they're humans, so they're the ones that matter the most.
Speaker 4: I mean, I guess in Lord of the Rings it's
Speaker 4: like it's the Hobbits who are supposed to be actually
Speaker 4: kind of the exceptional, right spite being unexceptionable. But I
Speaker 4: think they're kind.
Speaker 6: Of in that world, they're the English very much right,
Speaker 6: exactly exactly from the Shire.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I really do enjoy the the dynamics between
Speaker 4: the different groups, where, you know, the new Menorians I
Speaker 4: feel like, are little It feels to me like they
Speaker 4: became very isolationists in a way that doesn't feel like
Speaker 4: it was necessarily warranted, Like that was maybe just them
Speaker 4: kind of moving into something that I think of as
Speaker 4: like a fairly negative thing like in their more recent history, especially,
Speaker 4: it seems was the implication. But the humans of the
Speaker 4: Southland like they were on like the wrong side, right,
Speaker 4: they were on what's his face?
Speaker 5: Yeah, the person who was defeated before Saurun came along,
Speaker 5: who like some one was like working for him or something.
Speaker 5: They established him was the big bad early on. But
Speaker 5: it's more God thank you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, more Goth, which I guess probably has the same
Speaker 4: route as like more Door. Yeah, which right now I
Speaker 4: feel like I am unable to pronounce, but like sometimes
Speaker 4: I can. I will say I really enjoyed that. It
Speaker 4: felt like they were very deliberate with the pronunciation. Yes
Speaker 4: of like especially the rs right or like very very
Speaker 4: different from typical English ours. But yeah, it felt to
Speaker 4: me like, you know, the humans of the Southland like
Speaker 4: like yeah, they were they were on more Goth's side,
Speaker 4: but like also the elves. It kind of feels like
Speaker 4: the elves were sort of colonizers at the same time. Yeah,
Speaker 4: you know, yeah, And I think it's unclear when the
Speaker 4: humans like sprung up.
Speaker 5: But so let me talk about newmen Our first, because
Speaker 5: that's I think a really interesting place. So I have
Speaker 5: questioning because I think I agree with you that from
Speaker 5: let me actually wack up again. For me, I think
Speaker 5: I totally understand what you're coming from about not loving
Speaker 5: that the Newminorians are so isolationist. I think for me,
Speaker 5: I was frustrated because I felt like, yeah, with a
Speaker 5: little information, we knew it wouldn't make sense for the
Speaker 5: Newmonorians to be quite so isolationist. I think the implication
Speaker 5: was supposed to be that there was a whole bunch
Speaker 5: of backstory that we weren't being told. And here the
Speaker 5: frustration is actually I think part of kind of maybe
Speaker 5: it's the price to pay, but I think it's worthwhile
Speaker 5: of the of the good stuff we're talking about. It's
Speaker 5: because the Newminorians aren't the point of view characters glad
Speaker 5: Trails and the people should come and and you know,
Speaker 5: the boat captain is Heeldor's father, like they're somewhat but
Speaker 5: even he is somewhat kind of set aside, and so
Speaker 5: like I kind of kept feeling like I wished we
Speaker 5: had time to learn more about the history between the
Speaker 5: l Numanor and sort of what had happened, because it
Speaker 5: it sounded like, you know, probably both sides had been
Speaker 5: not great but then once the isolation began over a
Speaker 5: hundreds of years of history, both sides are telling the
Speaker 5: story their way, and both sides are getting locked into
Speaker 5: our way is right, and you know, it's just the
Speaker 5: kind of the way that cycle can come about. Yeah,
Speaker 5: And I think I think I would.
Speaker 4: Have liked that.
Speaker 5: If I had one frustration about the show is that
Speaker 5: I felt some of those storylines, particularly that one, was rushed,
Speaker 5: because you're right, it did feel like we didn't get
Speaker 5: enough of the New Menorian story for it to make
Speaker 5: sense why they were so anti Elf. But it also
Speaker 5: felt like like there was a scene between the Elf
Speaker 5: when the Queen of Numenor and Gladriel are kind of
Speaker 5: confronting each other, and both of them, I'm like, wait, wait,
Speaker 5: if you just explain yourself like two or three more sentences,
Speaker 5: all of this hostility can go away, Like okay, we
Speaker 5: just have to be hostile and try to break each
Speaker 5: other's plans immediately, Like yeah, but it was frustrating to me.
Speaker 5: But it felt frustrating in a it didn't feel like
Speaker 5: bad writing to me. It felt like there's clearly an
Speaker 5: established thing as to why these characters acting in this way.
Speaker 4: Right, It didn't feel like like, well, why don't they
Speaker 4: just talk to each other about this, like so the
Speaker 4: story can happen. It's like it wasn't It wasn't that.
Speaker 4: It was like it was no. This is how these people.
Speaker 4: These people are both very stubborn, right, Miriel and kaladreal
Speaker 4: Like they're both like very not not like I'm going
Speaker 4: to listen a bunch and then think and then speak,
Speaker 4: you know. It's like this is they're both very dug
Speaker 4: into their point of view. Although I will say, like
Speaker 4: Muriel like did change her mind, right, I mean she
Speaker 4: she did get convinced to, you know, go off to
Speaker 4: war with the you know, which it's funny, like the
Speaker 4: whole thing of like, you know, Galadriel is like, hey,
Speaker 4: let's go to war. Let's let's do a war, you know,
Speaker 4: and it's like kind of as the viewer, it's like, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: we know that she's right, like get sour on. But
Speaker 4: like also like I'm not really like, oh yeah, let's go,
Speaker 4: let's get in our boats and go attack some other land.
Speaker 4: But at the same time, it's like, you know, there
Speaker 4: was another group that was attacking that land already, right,
Speaker 4: you know, so but this is all like through omens
Speaker 4: and stuff that they so so you know, it's in
Speaker 4: terms of like the individual characters and like their motivations.
Speaker 4: To me, that felt very real, It felt very reasonable.
Speaker 4: I enjoyed. I would say I enjoyed all the writing
Speaker 4: like up to up to that point, you know, and
Speaker 4: then the actual episode where then they did go off.
Speaker 4: Then I felt like things kind of I had some
Speaker 4: issues after that, but not not so much issues to
Speaker 4: like talk about, but just kind of like it wasn't
Speaker 4: totally my favorite after there, but but I did really
Speaker 4: enjoy you know, like the politics of it and you know,
Speaker 4: some of the backstory. And it's hard though, because it's like, like,
Speaker 4: how do you tell a compelling story on screen in
Speaker 4: something that's ostensibly somewhat of an action series and give centuries,
Speaker 4: if not millennia of history, you know, how do you
Speaker 4: actually convey all of that in a in a series?
Speaker 4: And it's like, I'm not sure you need to bring
Speaker 4: all of that at once now.
Speaker 5: Especially when you splanchette back to narrate it for you.
Speaker 4: Right right, right, yeah, yeah, I mean some kind I'm
Speaker 4: some kind of narration tool might have been effective, but
Speaker 4: I was I was happy with not having really you know,
Speaker 4: much narration in this or any I didn't feel like
Speaker 4: it necessarily needed it, but that is one way to
Speaker 4: just get a bunch of you know, exposition in there.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I definitely get that. I think there's a lot
Speaker 5: of there's a lot of real challenges that this show had,
Speaker 5: And in some way, it's like I think, if if
Speaker 5: there's anything that I'm frustrated by, it's often I'd want
Speaker 5: to be like, Okay, well let me now just go
Speaker 5: look up the source material so that I can't like
Speaker 5: fill in all those gaps that the TV show is
Speaker 5: just never going to get to show me. Yeah, but
Speaker 5: of course here, you know, because no one has a
Speaker 5: deal without how the source material is, or what is
Speaker 5: conflicting source material or just all of that stuff, it
Speaker 5: becomes a lot harder, you know, And I think that's yeah, sure,
Speaker 5: in some ways, I think that's a big reason why,
Speaker 5: while again I don't love the people who have gotten
Speaker 5: very vehement in their attacks about it, I can very
Speaker 5: much understand the frustration because I think it's it's one
Speaker 5: thing to say I know the source material, but you're
Speaker 5: telling me a totally different source material, so I have
Speaker 5: to just put aside mine and fully accept yours, because
Speaker 5: yours is deep enough to fully accept. But when it's
Speaker 5: ignore that source material, except some parts of the source
Speaker 5: material still fit and some of it will make sense,
Speaker 5: but we're not gonna fill in all the gaps. But
Speaker 5: don't fill in the gaps with what you know from
Speaker 5: the other source material, but maybe from some of it.
Speaker 5: Like I can see why that would drive a lot
Speaker 5: of people utterly crazy and be very frustrating.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I could see that being very maddening. I
Speaker 4: was deliberately not looking up a bunch of stuff as
Speaker 4: the show went on because I didn't want spoilers, although
Speaker 4: there'd be no way of knowing whether those were actually
Speaker 4: going to be spoilers or not. But I didn't totally
Speaker 4: know that. I was kind of like, you know, kind
Speaker 4: of like you know, like trying to look at it
Speaker 4: like out of the side of the corner of my eye,
Speaker 4: like okay, can I can I look this thing up
Speaker 4: without no? Okay, let's stop, you know. And I it's
Speaker 4: interesting because I feel like one thing that this show
Speaker 4: accomplished that I feel the the Peter Jackson movies also
Speaker 4: accomplished to a really strong degree, is this feeling of history,
Speaker 4: you know, like the feeling that this world is ancient,
Speaker 4: that there's there's all this backstory, that there's things that
Speaker 4: have gone before, you know. And so if it was
Speaker 4: if it perfectly dovetailed in with all the other stories,
Speaker 4: I think that would be less of a visual illusion
Speaker 4: and more of a like, yeah, you can't actually look
Speaker 4: those things up and make connections. The fact that it
Speaker 4: is disconnected from that in a in a very real way,
Speaker 4: where like they can't literally draw on everything, I think
Speaker 4: is a you know, it's a it's an impediment to
Speaker 4: giving that level of death in terms of the actual history.
Speaker 4: But I do think to some extent they made up
Speaker 4: for that by giving this this visual depth, right, Like
Speaker 4: I mean Numanor I think was amazing looking and apparently
Speaker 4: they like built a whole city basically where you could
Speaker 4: just like go around the whole.
Speaker 5: Place, and you know, you know, is that also in
Speaker 5: New Zealand.
Speaker 4: I don't know. Okay, I don't know. I can I
Speaker 4: can probably research that and say that by the time we're.
Speaker 5: Done, yeah, yeah, it really was. And I So let's
Speaker 5: kind of dive more into the Neumanorian storyline, because I
Speaker 5: think that's kind of the easiest well, actually put it
Speaker 5: this way, do you want to kind of? I think
Speaker 5: maybe the easiest way to like approach this is through
Speaker 5: the plot lines of some of the characters, and so
Speaker 5: maybe like we can get into the Earns by like
Speaker 5: focusing on Gladriol and then we can switch to el
Speaker 5: Nor that's star trek Horoan thank you. Does that work
Speaker 5: for you? Yeah?
Speaker 4: Absolutely so.
Speaker 5: I think with Newmanor we get a lot into Gladriel's story.
Speaker 5: But I actually want to go back a bit because,
Speaker 5: like you mentioned, how kind of the end You're like,
Speaker 5: I don't really love that it being all about like,
Speaker 5: let's go fight, fight fight. I think that was one
Speaker 5: of the most interesting parts of Gladuel's character, was that
Speaker 5: all along, Like even in that first episode. Normally, if
Speaker 5: you see a character being so dedicated to fighting evil
Speaker 5: at all costs, you're like, Okay, cool, this is our hero.
Speaker 5: They're hitting all the hero tropes, they're willing to sacrifice everything. Instead,
Speaker 5: we start with Gladriel as like, there's some of that
Speaker 5: to be sure, but there is I think I like,
Speaker 5: and maybe so differently, I definitely thought like that the
Speaker 5: people who thought Gladriel was pushing too far were kind
Speaker 5: of right, like in terms of like the degree she
Speaker 5: was pushing people, the risks she was taking, the risk
Speaker 5: she was taking with other people, like she she knew
Speaker 5: something that the others didn't, and and like, I don't
Speaker 5: think she's totally wrong, but I think there was some
Speaker 5: truth to the idea that she was pushing too far.
Speaker 5: What was kind of your take on that?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I would probably personally steer clear of
Speaker 4: of the words right and wrong and more say that.
Speaker 4: I think everybody had reasonable perspectives.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's.
Speaker 4: It certainly seemed that most of the Elves and everyone
Speaker 4: else were like, yeah, you know, more goth is gone,
Speaker 4: sourn is gone, like chill, you know, sail into the
Speaker 4: is it the west or the east? The east, I
Speaker 4: don't know wherever they sail off to, uh, you know,
Speaker 4: go off to the undying lands and just chill out,
Speaker 4: like we won. It's over right, it's done. And they
Speaker 4: were wrong, but they were it was reasonable for them
Speaker 4: to believe that, right there was there was a lack
Speaker 4: of evidence, right right, there was there was no evidence,
Speaker 4: but she was like she felt it in her heart,
Speaker 4: like she'd she had some really really weak evidence right
Speaker 4: that maybe Souron was still you know, around and kicking
Speaker 4: and doing stuff, but you know, and maybe it could
Speaker 4: have been like, yeah, okay, maybe look into that more.
Speaker 4: I don't know, but I do think being like, hey,
Speaker 4: let's let's stop doing this whole war thing. It looks
Speaker 4: like it's done right. We don't have an enemy that
Speaker 4: we see anywhere, And yeah, I think that was a
Speaker 4: reasonable perspective for them. Yeah, it's unclear whether she had
Speaker 4: some kind of like magical sense you know, that that
Speaker 4: like something wasn't right and that you know, Souron wasn't
Speaker 4: really gone, or whether she just happened to be right right.
Speaker 4: She like basically there was a thing that was like
Speaker 4: a one in a thousand chance and she was just
Speaker 4: certain it was true, and it just happened to be true.
Speaker 4: But like, you know, there just wasn't really evidence to
Speaker 4: that you know, conclusion, and she just happened to like,
Speaker 4: guess right basically. So I think she's reasonable in terms
Speaker 4: of her personally wanting to continue, you know, the search,
Speaker 4: the struggle. But at the same time, I think you know,
Speaker 4: it was reasonable for the elf king to be like, yeah,
Speaker 4: we're gonna stop doing this. Yeah, like you know, and
Speaker 4: for the other soldiers to be like, hey, look like
Speaker 4: this isn't there's nothing out here right, Like we're not
Speaker 4: gonna just go off and get killed, like looking for
Speaker 4: someone who we don't even think exists anymore.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think what you said about right and wrong
Speaker 5: is actually even a better way to say what I
Speaker 5: was going for, because I think that's exactly it. And
Speaker 5: what I kind of meant was that I think often
Speaker 5: the story is presented in very clear right or wrong,
Speaker 5: you know that, like Gladual, like that everyone who's getting
Speaker 5: a Gladule's way is wrong because she should be doing
Speaker 5: all of it. And I think one of the things
Speaker 5: I think that was most interesting about the show in
Speaker 5: general is, you know, you and I talk about this
Speaker 5: a lot about how we like nuance, we like complexity,
Speaker 5: we don't like just necessarily like very binary good and
Speaker 5: bad villains. And I feel like this somewhat the way
Speaker 5: Lord of the Rings did, but even more so, and
Speaker 5: I mean Peter Jackson versions. Again I don't know the
Speaker 5: books too well, but even more so I think than
Speaker 5: those movies did. This is really kind of trying to
Speaker 5: have it both ways in a way that I think
Speaker 5: works because I think what they're doing is being like, yes,
Speaker 5: there is fundamental evil in this world and it needs
Speaker 5: to be stopped, but that doesn't mean that all the
Speaker 5: good guys are actually good guys, and that like that
Speaker 5: a lot of the like they're all still people. They're
Speaker 5: all still have their own agendas and their own fears
Speaker 5: and their own hopes and dreams, and they're all going
Speaker 5: to be doing maybe like each of them is going
Speaker 5: to be doing what is, from their perspective, the best
Speaker 5: way to fight the fundamental evil that exists in this universe.
Speaker 5: But that's gonna look different for each of them, and
Speaker 5: some of them are are gonna think that it's done
Speaker 5: and want to go in different directions. And I think
Speaker 5: that's what maybe overall, one of the things I really loved
Speaker 5: about the show is how it kind of had that like, yes,
Speaker 5: there's fundamentally evil out there, but still we can have
Speaker 5: like glad Reel is fighting the good fight to do,
Speaker 5: but other people make total sense that they are having
Speaker 5: some doubts and all the rest.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely, and you know, there is this like big
Speaker 4: mythical evil in this world, right, sort of like you know,
Speaker 4: Palpatine and Star Wars, but also there are people who
Speaker 4: like think they're doing good things, and it's like maybe
Speaker 4: they're not, or maybe they can be good, but it's
Speaker 4: you know, it's things are complicated. So I do think
Speaker 4: there was a nice degree of nuance, right, and like
Speaker 4: you also get to have you're just like you know,
Speaker 4: Souron is evil because his goal is to dominate all
Speaker 4: living things like not cool, dude, right, not cool? Like no, no,
Speaker 4: you can't do that. That's not okay. So like it
Speaker 4: was totally reasonable to be like, yeah, I'm gonna do
Speaker 4: all sorts of things to stop him. But at the
Speaker 4: same time, it's like, I don't know, I think there's
Speaker 4: a way of looking at the story also that's like, well,
Speaker 4: like where did Souron come from? And why did he
Speaker 4: come to Glaudriel? Like right, it was he physically not manifested,
Speaker 4: and then he showed up because she had this like
Speaker 4: darkness and anger and hatred in her heart. I don't know,
Speaker 4: maybe that's an interpretation, you know, the whole thing is
Speaker 4: one thing I'm.
Speaker 5: Not clear on. Is he like a priest of more
Speaker 5: Goth that is not Is he like someone who was
Speaker 5: like a devotee or a priest of more Goth and
Speaker 5: is now like taking over the family business because more
Speaker 5: Goth is gone. Is he like actually more Goth reborn?
Speaker 5: Do you have a clear idea of that or are
Speaker 5: we not supposed to know that or did you miss it?
Speaker 4: I think it was in there, and I would say that,
Speaker 4: you know, not super confidently. My understanding was that he
Speaker 4: was a servant of more Goth okay and like predates
Speaker 4: elves and you know, all the other beings that walk
Speaker 4: the Earth base or the Middle Earth, and that he
Speaker 4: was you know, a servant of like a like you know,
Speaker 4: not willingly. Really, it was like he was either he
Speaker 4: was created to serve more Goth or or he was
Speaker 4: just one of the really ancient beings who then more
Speaker 4: Goth was like, yeah, you're working for me. You don't
Speaker 4: have any choice about it. And then because I think
Speaker 4: he said, you know, basically like thank you for destroying
Speaker 4: more Goth, you know, like and he has this sort
Speaker 4: of like I'm going to liberate the world from suffering
Speaker 4: by controlling everyone, by removing free will kind of thing.
Speaker 4: It seems right, and so like I think he views
Speaker 4: himself as like the good guy, you know, like he's
Speaker 4: not like mohaha, ha ha. He's like, no, this is
Speaker 4: this is a good thing to do. I mean, I
Speaker 4: think it's not, you know, but but yeah, I think
Speaker 4: I think he was. He's like ancient and was a
Speaker 4: servant of more Goth, and once more Goth was defeated,
Speaker 4: then he like took over the kind of you know,
Speaker 4: the family business or whatever, like you know, he was
Speaker 4: the promoted to head dude basically, but maybe not in
Speaker 4: this body the whole time, right right, this is just
Speaker 4: like a current physical manifestation.
Speaker 5: And I certainly found that I really appreciated the way
Speaker 5: his character was developed and his connections with Gladrielle because ages,
Speaker 5: yeah again the whole like, you know, why is he
Speaker 5: drawn to her? We're like, this is not Star Wars,
Speaker 5: but a lot of that, like, you know, the dark
Speaker 5: what is the darkness in her manifesting? I was like, oh,
Speaker 5: there's some like light side dark side of the Force
Speaker 5: ideas happening here.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, again not the right if anything, George Lucas cribbed
Speaker 5: from this this comes this is written way before George Lucas.
Speaker 4: Right, of course, But I loved that.
Speaker 5: But also because I always felt in Lord of the
Speaker 5: Rings that the power that Salron had was much more
Speaker 5: told than shown, you know, And like I left thinking, like,
Speaker 5: why are all these other groups like marching to help Soauran?
Speaker 5: Why do And we're told that he's this being of
Speaker 5: like incredible deceitfulness and temptation and all this, And I
Speaker 5: think this really showed that to me in a way
Speaker 5: I hadn't had, like the way he because yeah, I
Speaker 5: have literally no idea whether he does honestly believe that
Speaker 5: he can make things better for everybody by taking over,
Speaker 5: or he's just wanting the power. And that's a great
Speaker 5: line to get there. And I think it's a part
Speaker 5: because it's really good acting and really good writing. But
Speaker 5: it certainly feels to me like I get why Galadriel
Speaker 5: came so close to being seduced into it, and I
Speaker 5: get why a lot of human groups would wind up either,
Speaker 5: Like you know, this is pure conjecture, but like when
Speaker 5: you talk about the humans who signed up for the
Speaker 5: Big War last time, however many thousands of years ago,
Speaker 5: if this is the guy doing the recruiting for more Goth,
Speaker 5: I can understand why, you.
Speaker 4: Know, right right, Yeah, I think so. First of all,
Speaker 4: I think in the you know, in the Lord of
Speaker 4: the Rings trilogy, Like there's this idea of sour on
Speaker 4: As as being this kind of almost more like an essence,
Speaker 4: like an evil compelling essence than you know, like a
Speaker 4: physically embodied person who's you know, like talking to people
Speaker 4: to convince them of this or that. You know, So
Speaker 4: it feels like there's there's a little bit more of
Speaker 4: kind of like a magic to it or like a
Speaker 4: mystery to it. And I think the idea is that,
Speaker 4: you know, he is supposed to be this kind of
Speaker 4: like disembodied evil, even though I know he takes physical
Speaker 4: form I believe at the end of a Return of
Speaker 4: the King, and also you know, in physical form he's
Speaker 4: defeated by Silder, right, but I guess spoilers for this series, yeah,
Speaker 4: you know, it's it's funny like how many prequels were
Speaker 4: coming out all at the same time, but like I
Speaker 4: totally lost my thought. Oh yeah, the the kind of
Speaker 4: like the line of like I'm gonna you know, like
Speaker 4: basically rule with me, you know, as we like dominate
Speaker 4: the world. But it's for a good reason. It actually
Speaker 4: really reminds me of the end of the much the
Speaker 4: much maligned end of Game of Thrones, yeah, you know,
Speaker 4: and uh, yeah, here.
Speaker 5: I think we've talked about before that that there's a
Speaker 5: very understandable path of I want everything to go better,
Speaker 5: and if all these stupid people would just let me
Speaker 5: be in charge, I could make everybody happier and better
Speaker 5: and right the degree that that then becomes okay, these
Speaker 5: people are getting in my way. Thus they are preventing
Speaker 5: the world from being better. Thus they are the things
Speaker 5: that are bad, like you know, on on.
Speaker 4: And on, Yeah, for sure, and and like to be
Speaker 4: just totally frank, I don't think there's a good answer
Speaker 4: like that definitely sounds like a bad answer to me.
Speaker 4: But like all the other ways of governing I also
Speaker 4: think are largely terrible. So you know, I can understand
Speaker 4: the not the appeal of authoritarianism or of deciding to
Speaker 4: be the authoritarian oneself, but that's you know, it's very
Speaker 4: easy to me to be disillusioned with every other option also,
Speaker 4: you know, and here, yeah, I thought there was like
Speaker 4: a lot good about that, kind of like him trying
Speaker 4: to convince her and kind of the whole the whole
Speaker 4: deceit from the beginning, but then the reveal just really
Speaker 4: fell flat for me. That's fair that's like they just
Speaker 4: really lost me in the last episode. I guess what
Speaker 4: it was was that once it became clear, I thought
Speaker 4: it was so obvious that it just it just felt
Speaker 4: really weird the last episode to me, especially because they
Speaker 4: had the whole misdirect that I was like, you're not
Speaker 4: fooling it. We all know that's Gandalf. Come on, come on,
Speaker 4: it's chilling with some proto Hobbits, Like it's Gandalf.
Speaker 1: We know that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And there I will say. I think I went
Speaker 5: for it a little further in part because I'd been
Speaker 5: partially spoiled, but it misunderstood the spoilers because interesting, there's
Speaker 5: that blonde androgynous servant of Saron who who like you know,
Speaker 5: comes to it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's the three people who show up and set
Speaker 4: everything on.
Speaker 5: Fire, right, and and the blonde one. Like there was
Speaker 5: an article I saw that that I think maybe this
Speaker 5: was this was maybe this was an intentional misdirect of
Speaker 5: a leak, or maybe it was just the press getting studupid.
Speaker 5: But the leak I saw was like is Sourn supposed
Speaker 5: to be the next heart throb? And it was a
Speaker 5: picture of that person, and so I was like, oh,
Speaker 5: so you thought that was I thought that was gonna
Speaker 5: sound and so I was like, well, well no, this
Speaker 5: this guy from the boat can't be sourn because it's
Speaker 5: you know. So yeah, so I got a little misdirected there.
Speaker 4: Well that that's useful, useful anti spoiler exactly.
Speaker 5: Let's move on to I think we could do a
Speaker 5: full episode on any of these uh stories, but I
Speaker 5: wanna go too long, Letten, then talk about ron storyline.
Speaker 4: Okay, wait, did we talk about Galadriel? Is that what
Speaker 4: we were just? Yeah, do we want to touch on
Speaker 4: the whole, like, hey, let's do a genocide of all
Speaker 4: the Orcs thing, just like briefly, Yeah.
Speaker 5: Let's go into that, because let's just touch on that,
Speaker 5: you know. To me, I was gonna say, to me,
Speaker 5: the only problem I tend to have with the Lord
Speaker 5: of the Rings world is that it has the D
Speaker 5: and D alignment problem, which in a D and D
Speaker 5: alignment is stolen from Lord of the Rings. So it
Speaker 5: makes kind of sense. But like we've sown that, like
Speaker 5: you can be a human or an Elf or a
Speaker 5: dwarf and have quite a large range of morality.
Speaker 4: M hm.
Speaker 5: My sense is that they are asking us to believe
Speaker 5: that in this world, to be an orc is to
Speaker 5: be a fundamentally evil creature, and that killing orcs is
Speaker 5: a morally unambiguous good thing. And I feel like, if
Speaker 5: that is the rules of the world, then Gladio's actions
Speaker 5: make sense. I just don't love those rules of the world.
Speaker 5: If it's not the rules of the world, then there's
Speaker 5: a lot more to talk about with Gladio's actions, as
Speaker 5: well as a dwarf and a human and an elf
Speaker 5: a thousand years from now or ten thousand years from
Speaker 5: now or three thousand years from now, whatever it.
Speaker 4: Is, right, Yeah, So I actually actually thought that this
Speaker 4: that the idea here was to be a somewhat more
Speaker 4: nuanced take on that, which, interestingly, the first place I
Speaker 4: saw with regard to orcs was in a book by
Speaker 4: Ari Salvatore called The Orc King, where you know in
Speaker 4: D and D like orcs are chaotic evil, that's just it, right,
Speaker 4: I think, Are they lawfully? No, they're I think, yeah,
Speaker 4: But like this is an or king who basically organizes
Speaker 4: a bunch of Orcs and actually establishes a state, you know,
Speaker 4: like a kingdom of Orcs, and you know there's still
Speaker 4: orcs in the way that orcs are ORCS and D
Speaker 4: and D. But like there's there's more nuance and intelligence
Speaker 4: and and there's characters right in a way that they're
Speaker 4: rarely had been before that, at least in anything I'd seen.
Speaker 4: And I think there's been a movement within I think
Speaker 4: D and D in general to like kind of basically
Speaker 4: strike from the record the idea that like different races
Speaker 4: have like different alignments, right, because you know, I mean historically,
Speaker 4: like speaking of Vri Salvator, like, you know, I loved
Speaker 4: DRIs Stewarden, right, one of my favorite characters of all time.
Speaker 4: I really enjoyed the Mental Brands and trilogy. Actually I
Speaker 4: guess only one of them, Dug. These are all yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: sat in the Forgotten Realms, their Dungeons and Dragons books
Speaker 4: and like novels, right, And but you know, the whole
Speaker 4: idea of like drow Elves, you know, the dark Elves
Speaker 4: being like in general inherently chaotic evil, and then like
Speaker 4: you know, Drist is like the rare good one. It's like,
Speaker 4: well that's horrible, yeah, you know, like that's that's that's
Speaker 4: not good. And you know, I think there's been this
Speaker 4: very deliberate move away from that and I think, you know,
Speaker 4: one of the biggest complaints that I would have of
Speaker 4: the original, you know, Lord of the Rings movie trilogy
Speaker 4: was like, you know, the Orcs are basically coded as
Speaker 4: as black, right, right, I mean, they literally are are
Speaker 4: darker skin and the you know, none of the humans
Speaker 4: I think kept dark skin or elves or dwells.
Speaker 6: Many of them have like dreadlocks basically yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 6: exactly that as well, right, And and so you know
Speaker 6: that that's a not good thing about those movies, right,
Speaker 6: And I think this series very deliberately tries to change that.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's kind of maybe a little ironic that
Speaker 4: like they make the Orcs less evil at the same
Speaker 4: time that they have like some white actors playing some
Speaker 4: of the Orcs. But you know, and it's like, well, okay,
Speaker 4: but at the same time, like I do think, you know,
Speaker 4: there was the whole scene of what is his name?
Speaker 4: Ad are basically saying like, you know, we prefer the
Speaker 4: word right, like that's what we say. An orc is
Speaker 4: like basically like a slur the way it's used, And
Speaker 4: so I do feel like, you know, the idea is
Speaker 4: that these were elves that were corrupted by more goth
Speaker 4: but then he's like, oh, but we killed Sauron, you know,
Speaker 4: and made ourselves free, and now we're trying to make
Speaker 4: a homeland for ourselves. And like, you know these humans
Speaker 4: who had we haven't had good relationships with, like they
Speaker 4: can get lost or serve us basically, right, there.
Speaker 5: Is an Elf that they're all kind of serving, right.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's Adar who is he's an Orduk, which is
Speaker 4: he he was an elf? Who I think he's one
Speaker 4: of the original ones. I'm not sure. So I think
Speaker 4: the idea is that they basically were elves, right, and
Speaker 4: then they got and this is like hinted at, right,
Speaker 4: or it's it's mentioned by Sorrowman in in the Peter
Speaker 4: Jey and Fellowship of the Ring, right, and and so
Speaker 4: like I think there's there's some complexity here, and we
Speaker 4: still don't know all of the story. I think is
Speaker 4: the idea, right, that's like we've just heard what this
Speaker 4: one one person was saying by person.
Speaker 5: You know we specially with the Sauuman, is that he
Speaker 5: then kind of like the aura Kai I think are
Speaker 5: something distinct, that those are ones that he specifically creates.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he crossed orders with goblins, I think, and as
Speaker 4: a result, they could run in the daylight because otherwise
Speaker 4: they they I mean, that's why they they you know,
Speaker 4: darken the sky, and that's why they build these tunnels, right,
Speaker 4: Although I know.
Speaker 5: Part of the cole here is also that I think
Speaker 5: often people want to think that Tolkien had there's like
Speaker 5: just one laser cut lore that was always the same.
Speaker 5: My understanding is that, especially like there's other stories in
Speaker 5: which like orc is the human word and or Goblin
Speaker 5: is the human word and orc is the Elvish word
Speaker 5: for the same beings. So like, right, it's hard to
Speaker 5: put a finger on, but I think where're going all
Speaker 5: this is like, yeah, that like it's hard to kind
Speaker 5: of have a definitive understanding of what the Orcs are,
Speaker 5: but it does certainly seem like they're giving them more
Speaker 5: characterization and more motivation than just we are mindless evil
Speaker 5: commanded by Sauruman or Saran.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely, And so I think there's you know, they're people, right,
Speaker 4: and they're what they're trying to do seems bad, right
Speaker 4: if you're like a person of the Southlands, but they
Speaker 4: have a backstory, and I think Gladriel like wanting to
Speaker 4: murder them all is you know, that's that's just that's
Speaker 4: not good. That's like, that's genocide. And wanting to fight
Speaker 4: them when they are trying to invade a place and
Speaker 4: take it over and kill all the people there seems
Speaker 4: totally fine to me, right, you know, but like, once
Speaker 4: you've defeated them, you don't murder them all. I don't
Speaker 4: think there's necessarily an easy answer, right, But like, but yeah,
Speaker 4: I I think that I don't think we're supposed to
Speaker 4: hear her speech and like be like, oh, yeah, you
Speaker 4: you go, you know, No, yeah, I think that was
Speaker 4: supposed to be like, uh to me.
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, it's that moment of righteous anger and desire
Speaker 5: to fight the enemy becomes let's genocide the enemy, you.
Speaker 4: Know, exactly exactly. And so I think, you know, she's
Speaker 4: not supposed to come off as this this pure, wonderful,
Speaker 4: you know person all the time. I think I think
Speaker 4: she's supposed to be a complex character as well, who
Speaker 4: has understandable motivations and wants to do what she thinks
Speaker 4: is good. But that within that, there's you know, there's
Speaker 4: there's also some horror, and I.
Speaker 5: Will say and there's a bit of a tangent, but
Speaker 5: I think it's something you and I talk about all
Speaker 5: the time is that the danger often with prequels is like,
Speaker 5: we know where this character or this story is supposed
Speaker 5: to get, and you fill in more of the details,
Speaker 5: you still have to wind up in that right place.
Speaker 5: And yeah, at least good Gladiol you know, to me,
Speaker 5: one of the things that think of the like kind
Speaker 5: of beautiful untold stories. But that very clearly comes across
Speaker 5: in Lord of the Rings, particularly in Fellowship of the Ring,
Speaker 5: is clearly Gladriel is deeply tempted by the power of
Speaker 5: the One Ring, but also don't trust doesn't trust herself,
Speaker 5: you know, think she would be you know, uh a
Speaker 5: clean you know, beautiful and feared and all should you know,
Speaker 5: all should love me and despair And like, I watch
Speaker 5: Gladriel do this, and I'm like, yeah, I buy that
Speaker 5: she doesn't trust herself with that much power because like
Speaker 5: and to be, I was like, Okay, that's actually a
Speaker 5: really good job of without lampshading it, without really forcing it,
Speaker 5: you're giving us more of an understanding of why. As
Speaker 5: she gets older and wiser, she's like, no, no, no, don't
Speaker 5: give me that ring. That's that's I'm a genocide.
Speaker 4: The orders no one should have that ring, even me. Yea,
Speaker 4: even though I really like I could, I could do something. No, no, no,
Speaker 4: can't do it, can't do it? Ye put it in
Speaker 4: Mount Doom exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's true. And I think that that's
Speaker 5: part of the like, just the way all of that,
Speaker 5: like the riding off to war plays out, is meant
Speaker 5: to be really complex.
Speaker 4: Right, because like it is, right, I mean, it's just
Speaker 4: it can be, and I.
Speaker 5: Think in a weird way it does. Also I want
Speaker 5: to I want to learn a lot more about the Newmonorians,
Speaker 5: in part because I have no idea why this like
Speaker 5: idiot kid is going to wind up king and defeating Sauron.
Speaker 5: But that's another story entirely. But I think one of
Speaker 5: the things that I was really fast, one of the
Speaker 5: things that at least those last episodes really showed me
Speaker 5: was Okay, I want to know a lot more about
Speaker 5: why the Newmnorians are so isolated and don't trust the elves.
Speaker 5: But this whole experience is a pretty good example of
Speaker 5: why hate people of numanor maybe when bloodthirsty elves show
Speaker 5: up and want to go with you on a crusade,
Speaker 5: maybe put on the brakes a bit like I don't
Speaker 5: feel like the end result of this for the people
Speaker 5: of Numenor is no, we were wrong. Next time when
Speaker 5: the the yells a charge in a battle, we should
Speaker 5: go with them.
Speaker 4: Yeah, although the queen seems still very much on, you know,
Speaker 4: right on like team like, let's go and let's get
Speaker 4: revenge on them now, you know, definitely? Yeah?
Speaker 5: Is there anything else? Let me go offline? Well, here's
Speaker 5: the thing. I can't go too late tonight. Yes, So
Speaker 5: I think actually I'm gonna give us a couple more
Speaker 5: chances to talk about like other Gladio stuff or other
Speaker 5: like just small stuff from Numenor, like maybe a ciliador
Speaker 5: and his family, and then I'm gonna say, wrap up.
Speaker 5: This will be part one. We'll do part two another time.
Speaker 4: Oh sure that works for me. All right.
Speaker 5: So my idea that we would cover all of this
Speaker 5: show in one episode was clearly a a little bit farcical,
Speaker 5: as has never happened with you and I before. But
Speaker 5: instead of letting us turned into a three hour episode.
Speaker 5: Because I do want to get some sleep tonight, I
Speaker 5: think we're gonna make this. We'll just talk about Gladiel
Speaker 5: and the Neumanor story and then we'll do all of
Speaker 5: l Rond and the Heartfoots maybe on another episode that'll
Speaker 5: be coming soon. Excuse me. That'll so let me just
Speaker 5: kind of say then instead and I will say, we're
Speaker 5: gonna do Also, we're gonna get into a little bit
Speaker 5: of listener feedback after our last ad. But for you, Paul,
Speaker 5: is there anything else about gladio story or about the
Speaker 5: kind of stories we get kind of tangential to her
Speaker 5: in terms of like the human captain from numenor meeting
Speaker 5: younger steel Door and like his family, any of that
Speaker 5: stuff that you really wanted to touch on.
Speaker 4: I really liked a lend deal As far as all
Speaker 4: of the non elf characters or Alfred Dwarf characters, I'd
Speaker 4: say he was probably my favorite. But yeah, in terms
Speaker 4: of glad like her not outing Sourn before they made
Speaker 4: the rings, She's like, no, no, let's make the rings first,
Speaker 4: then let's talk about that other thing. Just trust me, Yeah,
Speaker 4: I said, trust me. You know, both feels like I
Speaker 4: can't totally decide whether it just feels like contrived and
Speaker 4: like come on, like just just tell Elron's you know, like,
Speaker 4: don't what are you doing? But at the same time,
Speaker 4: I think there's this like, I mean, I guess we
Speaker 4: could talk more about the rings themselves next time when
Speaker 4: we're talking about Elrond and maybe kill a brimbor or whatever.
Speaker 4: But like she basically is like, let's go ahead and
Speaker 4: do that thing first, even though she knows that Halbrand
Speaker 4: is sourn. So that feels like a very questionable decision.
Speaker 4: And I think the idea was we need to make
Speaker 4: these rings to like sell save the elves essentially, and
Speaker 4: then we can go fight Souran, although the fact that
Speaker 4: Souron was the one who was like, hey, uh, why
Speaker 4: don't you why don't you do this? Why don't you
Speaker 4: make these seems like it's like, Okay, hold on, let's
Speaker 4: let's put this plan on hold and and actually talk
Speaker 4: about everything we know. That seems like a very questionable decision.
Speaker 5: It did, and I will say, yeah, I definitely want
Speaker 5: to get into all the stuff about the making of
Speaker 5: the rings next time, because there's a lot of stuff
Speaker 5: about the Alvin king and all that that is very questionable.
Speaker 5: I think though. With Gladriel, I think it was a like, again,
Speaker 5: I'm trying to get away from binary right or wrong,
Speaker 5: but like on the wrong side of things, like, it's
Speaker 5: not a decision that I was like, yes, good, I'm
Speaker 5: glad you made that decision to not.
Speaker 4: Tell them, right, it's not a slam, DONK.
Speaker 5: I think the combination of a that she does think
Speaker 5: the rule the rings need to be made, b That
Speaker 5: she's still believes that she needs to be the one
Speaker 5: to kind of like lead the armies and to kind of,
Speaker 5: you know, bring about the end of sourn And then
Speaker 5: I think she still has a lot of resentment that
Speaker 5: like these guys never trusted her and never listened to her.
Speaker 5: And then there's this dual thing of like, you know,
Speaker 5: if you think that people were distrusting you for stupid,
Speaker 5: stupid reasons all along, and now you actually might have
Speaker 5: given them one very good reason to not trust you.
Speaker 5: But he's like, but like they're gonna be like okay,
Speaker 5: but that on top of all the other reasons we
Speaker 5: don't trust.
Speaker 4: You, And you're like, but no, no, but those are
Speaker 4: all wrong.
Speaker 5: Like I can get why in her head, like it's
Speaker 5: a really hard situation of like if I tell them this,
Speaker 5: they're just never gonna believe me for anything ever again,
Speaker 5: as well as a lot of her own shame and
Speaker 5: self gout about like, how could I have just missed
Speaker 5: that for so long? Like, yeah, so I don't it
Speaker 5: feels like, oh, glad you ol that was a bad decision,
Speaker 5: But I'm not, like, right, that was a bad decision
Speaker 5: to make from it, it feels very much decision that
Speaker 5: I could see, Glad you're making in that moment.
Speaker 4: Mm hmm, yeah, yeah, I guess I would say that
Speaker 4: it feels consistent with the character that we had gotten
Speaker 4: to this point. I kind of want her to be.
Speaker 7: Like a little a little sharper and smarter, but it's
Speaker 7: a little bit of that like Batman and Lex Luthor problem,
Speaker 7: you know, where it's like, I, this is a character
Speaker 7: I want to be very insightful and to see things.
Speaker 4: But but then you know she's up against this like
Speaker 4: ultimate deceiver, and like maybe her thing isn't that you know,
Speaker 4: maybe she was blinded by like thirst for vengeance basically
Speaker 4: for so long that it's just hard to make good
Speaker 4: decisions and hard to kind of see clearly right. And
Speaker 4: and maybe the Galadrail we get in the Fellowship of
Speaker 4: the Rings is one who has grown, you know, through
Speaker 4: thousands of years of experience and living through this and
Speaker 4: maybe learned from her mistakes. So I can buy that,
Speaker 4: as you know here she's a young alf of maybe
Speaker 4: a thousand something years or whatever. She's a teenager, right exactly.
Speaker 4: I think this is like twenties. Yeah, and there's like twenties,
Speaker 4: you know.
Speaker 5: I mean certainly I think that this Galadriel would have
Speaker 5: taken the one ring and oh yeah.
Speaker 4: For sure, yeah absolutely so can I can I can
Speaker 4: see that, you know, that being an outcome. I could
Speaker 4: see her maybe finding a way not to. But like
Speaker 4: I wouldn't be like, oh, she would never do that.
Speaker 4: I'd be like, yeah, story checks out exactly.
Speaker 5: Yeah, all right, we're gonna do one last bit of
Speaker 5: listener feedback, so yeah, the more thing about there's no
Speaker 5: need to like do the stinger. I'm just gonna do
Speaker 5: its like we're gonna have one one more ad break
Speaker 5: and then we'll go into the last bit, which is the.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you don't have to call it a stinger.
Speaker 5: Yeah. So we will have a lot more to say
Speaker 5: about Rings of Power. We'll get into that in another episode,
Speaker 5: and we're going to get into a little bit of
Speaker 5: listener feedback to close things out right after this. Welcome back, Paul.
Speaker 5: This is a message we got primarily about the episode
Speaker 5: you were not on about thor Love and Thunder, but
Speaker 5: I know that you have seen it. It's also someone
Speaker 5: about Daredevil. Mostly though it's about theology and faith, which
Speaker 5: I know your favorite topics. But I think you may. Yeah,
Speaker 5: I say about it because I did a great episode
Speaker 5: with Rabbi Micah the pop culture Rabbi about the concept
Speaker 5: of theodicy, the idea of wanting to kill God as
Speaker 5: gory God butcher does, and some understandable reasons for doing that,
Speaker 5: the whole idea of like why would God allow suffering,
Speaker 5: et cetera, and so A fan wrote in, and I
Speaker 5: believe the title it's spelled DCN, so I believe this
Speaker 5: is Deacon Stephen Brow wrote in the episode with Rabbi
Speaker 5: was wonderful. It is so refreshing to hear modern media
Speaker 5: treat religion and theology in such a mature and fair fashion.
Speaker 5: Too often, it seems, media seems to disparage and denigrate
Speaker 5: religion and theology. Your discussion of theoticy and suffering brought
Speaker 5: me back to my formation years in the aconate of
Speaker 5: the Catholic Church. I took a class at Santa Clara
Speaker 5: University on the theology of suffering. Your discussion with the
Speaker 5: Rabbi was a master class. As I remember the class,
Speaker 5: the nature of suffering was declared a mystery. But in
Speaker 5: the Catholic Church, suffering is equated often with the way
Speaker 5: of the Cross. Everyone has a cross to bear in life.
Speaker 5: That katy preserving and enduring the cross is to accept
Speaker 5: and work with a cross. Those who avoid or try
Speaker 5: to deny the cross or left with emptiness and frustration. Also,
Speaker 5: I just saw the last episode of Daredevil, episode thirteen
Speaker 5: of season three. At the end of the episode, Matt
Speaker 5: Murrock explains that he questioned how God could let a
Speaker 5: boy go blind. Father Paul explained that life was God's
Speaker 5: tapestry and people could only view the backside of that tapestry.
Speaker 5: People only saw the ugly knots and strings. Father Paul
Speaker 5: tried to explain to met Murdoch that people do not
Speaker 5: know the will or plan of God, and understanding suffering
Speaker 5: requires one to remove oneself from the situation and try
Speaker 5: to see it through God's eye, a very difficult task.
Speaker 5: Love your show and the discussion of ethics. Peace be
Speaker 5: with you, Deacon Stephen Brown. Well, Stephen, thank you so
Speaker 5: much for writing in I'm really I love hearing different perspectives.
Speaker 5: I will say your perspective on theology of suffering. I'm
Speaker 5: not Catholic, and that maybe part of our difference, but
Speaker 5: also just other things. I definitely have a very different
Speaker 5: idea of suffering. I think I maybe we went into
Speaker 5: a lot of that in the episode, but I mostly
Speaker 5: reject the idea of a god who causes suffering or
Speaker 5: who is in charge of it, and I have a
Speaker 5: very different understanding of the Cross. But I definitely do
Speaker 5: hear what you're saying, and I appreciate the way you're
Speaker 5: tying that discussion into what's discussed in Daredevil because of
Speaker 5: the Yeah, I think in many ways they're wrestling with
Speaker 5: the same question, which is, if you are a person
Speaker 5: of faith, and you have a belief in a God
Speaker 5: who is either all powerful or all knowing, or all
Speaker 5: good or some combination or of all of them, even
Speaker 5: explain it, suffering exists in the world. So yeah, I
Speaker 5: really appreciate the way frame of those questions. Either, I
Speaker 5: don't think I agree, but I love the perspective. And
Speaker 5: I'll now toss it over to someone who pretty much
Speaker 5: disparages the entire idea of faith, god, religion theology for
Speaker 5: his expert commentary on this topic, Paul, What's what's your
Speaker 5: take on his letter?
Speaker 4: Uh? Yeah, I mean I would describe myself as extremely
Speaker 4: atheist as if that's like not a binary basically. But
Speaker 4: I'm kind of on team Gore. You know, I thought
Speaker 4: he had a good point. For the most part. I
Speaker 4: think it's odd that his plan to kill thor because
Speaker 4: he thought gods didn't care about people was to kidnap
Speaker 4: a bunch of people and threaten them.
Speaker 5: Yeah, the empathy of a god when the whole point.
Speaker 5: I had not thought about that point, But that, also,
Speaker 5: you're right, is a really good point, you know what
Speaker 5: I mean.
Speaker 4: I'm like, hmm, yeah, maybe think about your plan here
Speaker 4: and your motives. But yeah, I'm not a fan of suffering.
Speaker 4: I find trying to figure out, Like I always, I
Speaker 4: struggle to kind of express what I'm trying to say
Speaker 4: because I want to make it very clear first of all,
Speaker 4: that like, you know, people believe what people believe, and
Speaker 4: I absolutely think it's horrible for people to be like
Speaker 4: discriminated against or really disparaged for what they believe. But
Speaker 4: I don't think that means that like it's unreasonable to
Speaker 4: criticize those beliefs or basically be like, you know, I
Speaker 4: think there are certain beliefs that are very offensive. Yeah,
Speaker 4: you know, and obviously like thinking that, like certain people
Speaker 4: don't believe deserve life, Like that's obviously patently offensive to
Speaker 4: the vast majority of people, right, unfortunately not to all people,
Speaker 4: but like there's things that are just kind of transparently
Speaker 4: like these people are like, yeah, well that that's a
Speaker 4: that's I don't I don't like that. So I think,
Speaker 4: to me, like the idea that there is some divine
Speaker 4: purpose to suffering and that like you just can't understand
Speaker 4: it because you're human. I've always found deeply offensive, like
Speaker 4: and it makes me angry, Yeah, and you know I
Speaker 4: can understand. And then like the like response to that
Speaker 4: being like, oh, but you just don't understand it. I
Speaker 4: find just extremely patronizing. And it's like, how do you
Speaker 4: understand that? I don't understand it. That doesn't you know,
Speaker 4: it just doesn't there's no logic there to me. And
Speaker 4: and so I would say that I am extremely hostile
Speaker 4: to that point of view, while really trying to make
Speaker 4: very clear that I'm not hostile to people who hold
Speaker 4: that point of view, you know. I mean, like we
Speaker 4: had a conversation a few episodes ago on one where
Speaker 4: you know, I think you literally said the words, I
Speaker 4: don't believe that non human animals' lives have value, which
Speaker 4: but while also saying that you thought the suffering was
Speaker 4: was very you know, was bad and should be minimized
Speaker 4: or limited, and like that is a statement that I
Speaker 4: think a majority of people share that opinion, and its
Speaker 4: opinion that is just completely anathema to the way I
Speaker 4: see the world, you know, And it's hard for me
Speaker 4: to hear that and not like be filled with rage, Yeah,
Speaker 4: you know what I mean, But like, at the same time, like,
Speaker 4: I love you. You are a great friend of mine.
Speaker 4: I think you're an extremely compassionate human being. And I'm
Speaker 4: not going to be like, oh, I think you're just
Speaker 4: awful because you have this one point of view that
Speaker 4: I just am like, no, you know, And and I
Speaker 4: think that's that's just a real challenge in the world,
Speaker 4: right because I think like almost anyone, like the like
Speaker 4: just the vast majority of people, Like if we had
Speaker 4: a conversation about every single thing, there would be some
Speaker 4: number of things that would just be like oh, no,
Speaker 4: you know, and I know that I hold some opinions
Speaker 4: that like, I don't know whether you feel the same
Speaker 4: way to that ext you know, extent, but that that
Speaker 4: we certainly disagree on. Yeah, you know, yeah, I.
Speaker 5: Do want to clarify something, and I think it's very
Speaker 5: possible I misspoke at that point. I don't think I
Speaker 5: would ever have said I don't think I would ever
Speaker 5: have meant that I don't think animal lives have value.
Speaker 5: I think that I I don't give them the same
Speaker 5: lives as human lives, which would maybe just as an
Speaker 5: athema to you and be the same, but to me
Speaker 5: that there's a distinction there. But I think most of
Speaker 5: what you're saying, I think it's still still very accurate.
Speaker 4: I appreciate the clarification, and I do think that's a
Speaker 4: significant difference, you know. So yeah, and you know that
Speaker 4: I feel better.
Speaker 5: Verification, but yeah, but I do so, you know, I
Speaker 5: think you also have I try and never just kind
Speaker 5: of think of like somebody have more life than others.
Speaker 5: I love to reject that kind of thinking entirely. But yeah,
Speaker 5: to me, I don't you place a value on animal life.
Speaker 5: That's not quite where I would place it. And I
Speaker 5: think that yeah, yeah, there is a point of real
Speaker 5: debate between us at times. Going back to this though.
Speaker 5: The thing is though that like and so tying all
Speaker 5: that conversation into this great letter, and again by betting
Speaker 5: Steven Brow, thank you very much for writing in. Yeah,
Speaker 5: I think even though I am a person of faith, Paul,
Speaker 5: I am every word you said about the as I
Speaker 5: perceive it. Again, I'm not trying to tell everyone else
Speaker 5: the wrong, but just as I understand faith and as
Speaker 5: I understand the world, to me, the idea that a
Speaker 5: God would cause suffering is incredibly offensive, is incredibly patronizing.
Speaker 5: I think is a fundamental misreading of the Bible alone
Speaker 5: any understanding of a compassionate God, but also to me
Speaker 5: is incredibly dangerous because I think one of the things
Speaker 5: that we see throughout history, and I think this is
Speaker 5: exactly Gore's point, is that most of the time it's
Speaker 5: people who aren't really suffering. That when the people who
Speaker 5: are suffering say, hey, wait a minute, why are we
Speaker 5: suffering but you're not, And those people say, oh no, no,
Speaker 5: it's because God wants it this way, and because actually
Speaker 5: you're gonna get your reward in heaven or actually your whole.
Speaker 5: I wish I could suffer the way you could. You're
Speaker 5: suffering makes you holy, right, And I think that I
Speaker 5: like a lot of that theology was created when Christianity
Speaker 5: becomes the official religion of the Roman Empire and all
Speaker 5: of a sudden, a religion that was a religion of
Speaker 5: the I give a whole the whole school of liberation
Speaker 5: theology is fundamentally about rejecting that idea in many ways,
Speaker 5: about saying like, no, like God stands with those on
Speaker 5: the underside of history. I'm not gonna go to the
Speaker 5: old two lecture, but just to say, yeah, I think
Speaker 5: I would agree with you, Paul. I'm pretty much all
Speaker 5: of that. That to me, I do believe in God,
Speaker 5: and I do believe in God who stands with us
Speaker 5: in the time of suffering and who helps drive us
Speaker 5: to overcome suffering and to stop suffering. And I think
Speaker 5: there can be some the ability in your own pain
Speaker 5: and suffering to see some sacredness of like being able
Speaker 5: to be in communion with others who suffer, and what
Speaker 5: you can learn from that like that. There's a whole
Speaker 5: other way of looking at theologically that takes some of
Speaker 5: that idea but I think the idea of like we
Speaker 5: don't understand why we suffer, but God has a plan,
Speaker 5: and it's all like, no, that's that's all utter a
Speaker 5: curse word that I can't say on this, but I
Speaker 5: just do not agree with that light.
Speaker 4: Fair, fair. I will say that I do really appreciate
Speaker 4: hearing the point of view, yeah, regardless of how much
Speaker 4: I disagree with it, because I don't know, I feel
Speaker 4: like it's just very thoughtfully expressed. And I find Matt
Speaker 4: Murdoch's Catholicism the most compelling depiction of religion I feel
Speaker 4: I've seen in anything, really like not the only compelling depiction,
Speaker 4: but like one of very few. Yeah, that like I
Speaker 4: really actually enjoyed and in a character that I felt
Speaker 4: like I related to a lot, you know, And and
Speaker 4: so that was a very interesting experience for me.
Speaker 5: And I do want to say, I don't think either
Speaker 5: you or I is like saying like we're right and
Speaker 5: Steven's wrong. I don't think Steven is standing strongly on
Speaker 5: the side of like God understands suffering. I think I
Speaker 5: think Steven's making raising some really interesting questions about like
Speaker 5: the mystery of it all and things like that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no. I mean, I definitely think I'm right, and.
Speaker 5: I'm just saying I don't want to set Stephen up
Speaker 5: as the strong man we're both arguing against, because I.
Speaker 4: Think it's oh yeah, yeah, yeah, No, I mean I
Speaker 4: think you're too. Also I agree with your you know,
Speaker 4: it's it's closer to my point of view, but like
Speaker 4: I'm like, yeah, I mean if if if you know
Speaker 4: you don't believe in something, you just don't believe in something,
Speaker 4: and then the nature of it, it's like, well, it's like, well,
Speaker 4: I don't know. I mean I don't really have a
Speaker 4: place in the conversation in that regard, right, I mean
Speaker 4: that makes sense, you can sort that out.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but yeah, definitely, Stephen, thank you so much for
Speaker 5: writing in. I think as we get back to other
Speaker 5: versions of Matt Murdoch I really hope his Catholicism and
Speaker 5: his theology will play play a role in because yeah,
Speaker 5: like you, Paul, it is also part of is a
Speaker 5: part of him that I find the most fascinating because
Speaker 5: I think he's, like I told you, I'm rejecting one
Speaker 5: set of answers to those questions. I don't think I
Speaker 5: have the answers though. I think we're all still wrestling
Speaker 5: with it and trying to understand it. And that's what
Speaker 5: I love about Murderarch is that he is wrestling with it,
Speaker 5: and that, to me, I think what makes Father Paul
Speaker 5: such a good character in Matt Murdoch is that he
Speaker 5: doesn't just say no, Matt, the Catholic Church teaches this,
Speaker 5: you're wrong. He's like, yeah, that's These are tough questions,
Speaker 5: you know. And I think it's what Steven said. I
Speaker 5: think we're all like Stephen, I really appreciate that you're
Speaker 5: kind of wrestling with these questions as well. We may
Speaker 5: be coming to some much different perspectives on it, but like, yeah,
Speaker 5: these aren't easy to answer questions.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I guess, yeah, I don't know's I mean?
Speaker 4: For me, I'm just like, what's the purpose of suffering?
Speaker 4: There just is suffering, like it just is. I don't know,
Speaker 4: I'm a just a nihilist here.
Speaker 5: Yeah that's funny, that's fine. Yeah, I'm I don't think
Speaker 5: there's a purpose in suffering. I think if there is suffering,
Speaker 5: there can be a value in it. But yeah, less
Speaker 5: suffering the better, please.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I do think people can learn from suffering,
Speaker 4: for sure, you know, but yeah, I was. I was
Speaker 4: going for a walk thinking about ways that I was
Speaker 4: gonna describe myself in words that are, you know, maybe
Speaker 4: too specific, but like hyper empathic nihilist was one of them.
Speaker 4: Like I think it's funny I feel other people suffering
Speaker 4: like acutely, you know.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And in some ways that might be also a
Speaker 5: better way to describe the animal kind of conversation we're
Speaker 5: having is that when I see and I read about,
Speaker 5: and I understand animal suffering, I have an intellectual understanding
Speaker 5: that that is wrong and bad and I don't want
Speaker 5: that to happen. It doesn't tug on my heartstrings and
Speaker 5: my compassion in quite the same way.
Speaker 4: Yeah, whereas like I feel physical discomfort, Yeah that makes sense.
Speaker 4: I mean, as I do with humans as well, you know.
Speaker 5: Like Rachel Mundy also wrote in a really nice email
Speaker 5: she did not want written in the air, but I
Speaker 5: just wanted to kind of thank Rachel for the great email.
Speaker 5: Is really supportive and wonderful, and I greatly appreciate it.
Speaker 5: So one last email and we'll close this out. And
Speaker 5: I also say some of these are pretty old. We
Speaker 5: were getting a bunch of feedback from months ago. That
Speaker 5: was going to the wrong email address. Well maybe if
Speaker 5: restate that for the last couple of months, I have
Speaker 5: switched to a new email address, but I realized it
Speaker 5: hadn't been switched yet on the Stranded Panda podcast channel.
Speaker 5: I think I might have said the wrong email address
Speaker 5: a couple times, and I thought I had it set
Speaker 5: up to forward, but apparently it wasn't forwarding. So that's
Speaker 5: why I've been digging back and be like, oh, here's
Speaker 5: some feedback from like months ago. But for anyone in
Speaker 5: the future, it's always Matthew at Vethical Panda dot com.
Speaker 5: I think I have everything set up now to auto forward,
Speaker 5: so if you do send it to the Ethical Panda
Speaker 5: at Gmail, or Superhero Ethics at Gmail or Star Wars
Speaker 5: Universe podcast at Gmail, it should all forward. But the
Speaker 5: best way is always Matthew at the Ethical Panda dot com.
Speaker 5: This one comes from TJ. Stafford, and we've got some
Speaker 5: time and there's a lot in here, so I didn't
Speaker 5: really get a chance to cut these down. But I
Speaker 5: will say to everyone, I love all the thoughts, I
Speaker 5: love all the nuance, but if you can make it
Speaker 5: not more than a page, that would be very helpful
Speaker 5: couple paragraphs can be great, but TJ wrotes.
Speaker 4: In terms of reading it on air particularly.
Speaker 5: Yeah, at least he also at least TJ also acknowledges
Speaker 5: that TJ says, I'll try to keep it brief, but
Speaker 5: I love this show so much so I wouldn't count
Speaker 5: on it. Sorry not sorry. And the show they're talking
Speaker 5: about is Stranger Things season What are we on that? Four?
Speaker 5: Or five?
Speaker 4: Four? Four point five is what it was?
Speaker 5: Okay, so spoilers training one who hasn't seen spoilers that
Speaker 5: they did it to us again. They bob Knu beat us.
Speaker 5: They spent a whole season us in daring us to
Speaker 5: a character, only to kill them at the end. I assume,
Speaker 5: as he means Billy, they do this in order to
Speaker 5: give us quote significant character death without actually killing off
Speaker 5: any of the core characters. Oh, Eddie, I'm sorry, not Billy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, Eddie. Billy was season three.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's right. Billy was the brother who was awful
Speaker 5: until we liked him, and then.
Speaker 4: Until he wasn't awful, and then they killed him. Yeah.
Speaker 5: I thought Eddie was a wonderful edition to the show,
Speaker 5: and I would prefer to keep him around a bit
Speaker 5: longer to see what else he could bring to the table.
Speaker 5: Having said that, if they just had to kill him off,
Speaker 5: at least they did it well. His final scene with
Speaker 5: Dustin was pretty powerful, and Dustin's conversation with Enoch, I mean,
Speaker 5: Eddie's uncle was as well. I think that's a Asians
Speaker 5: of Shield reference. Even if the whole world will forever
Speaker 5: think of Eddie as a monster, at least those that
Speaker 5: knew him knew the truth. If the series doesn't end
Speaker 5: with Dustin carrying on the leadership with hell Fire, I'll
Speaker 5: be sorely disappointed. I can go behind that, although the
Speaker 5: group made even think about rebranding, if they're going to
Speaker 5: kill off anyone, I think it should have been a
Speaker 5: main character. But conversely, when I thought they were killing Max,
Speaker 5: I was enraged. She was in my top three favorite
Speaker 5: characters before the season, but within the first couple of
Speaker 5: episodes of the season, she stole the title and ran
Speaker 5: away with it. So I had feelings about what happened
Speaker 5: to her. I was impressed if they were going after
Speaker 5: a major character, I was distraught that it was her,
Speaker 5: and therefore very torn about where things ended with her.
Speaker 5: I'm also wondering if Ashley is going to get her
Speaker 5: possession plot after all, Maxim's right for the picking due
Speaker 5: to her constantly coma to currently comatose state. I'll be
Speaker 5: sure to ask Ashley that in an upcoming episode. I'm
Speaker 5: gonna do her. I have so much more to get into,
Speaker 5: but I guess I should be considered of your time. Yeah,
Speaker 5: I can edit it if I want to, So I'm
Speaker 5: just gonna rapid fire a few last thoughts before closing
Speaker 5: out Russia plot. Still can't make myself care that much,
Speaker 5: Jonathan Nancy Drama. Iye, roll Papa. I'm glad he's dead
Speaker 5: after that guy. He needed to suffer more. You and
Speaker 5: glad you'll agree on a lot of things. Last thing,
Speaker 5: do you think Jason is really dead after falling to
Speaker 5: the rift or do you think he might return Vecna's
Speaker 5: return as Vecna's funky next season. I'll make myself stop now.
Speaker 5: I can't wait to hear what you all have to
Speaker 5: say about these last two episodes, if you can even
Speaker 5: call them that. Thank you for continuing to create a
Speaker 5: platform for us Kee should gush over the things we loved. TJ.
Speaker 5: Stafford PS My Fantasy league started an online d and
Speaker 5: D campaign after the first part of the season, but
Speaker 5: I'm sure the timing that's prely coincidental. Well, I hate
Speaker 5: that ps because it reminds me and I'm still not
Speaker 5: in a D and D campaign. I wish I was.
Speaker 5: But yeah, obviously we have since he TJ wrote this
Speaker 5: to us before our coverage of the last couple episodes.
Speaker 5: That coverage is now up. You can find all of that.
Speaker 5: But TJ, theres a lot of great questions.
Speaker 4: What are kind of your thoughts, Paul, Yeah, that that
Speaker 4: episode that that I actually hosted about those two movies
Speaker 4: that were the last two episodes of season four.
Speaker 5: Strangers in the podcast without a scratch, and you in
Speaker 5: fact did not knock off a major disc on top
Speaker 5: of the podcast. So you did better than when.
Speaker 4: Right, exactly better than Lando, I'll take it. Yeah, that
Speaker 4: the whole I mean, I guess I said in that
Speaker 4: episode what I had to say about major character deaths
Speaker 4: and character deaths and whatever. But I feel like this
Speaker 4: show has basically laid the ground rules in a way,
Speaker 4: and then which is like, the main characters are going
Speaker 4: to be okay at least until the last season, and
Speaker 4: if we introduce a new character, don't get too attached. Yeah,
Speaker 4: like you know, the more you like them, the more
Speaker 4: likely we're going to kill them off. And I thought,
Speaker 4: you know, Eddie's like the whole thing with playing Master
Speaker 4: of Puppets on the roof of the trailer was amazing.
Speaker 4: And then they went back through the thing and then
Speaker 4: him like going off to like it. It felt like okay,
Speaker 4: and they're doing the thing, but like I knew they
Speaker 4: were gonna do the thing, so it wasn't as bad.
Speaker 4: I don't know, I always find the like the like
Speaker 4: need to see like a major character killed off like
Speaker 4: a little and I'm not saying that's necessarily what tj'
Speaker 4: is saying, but like that's not what I want. Yeah,
Speaker 4: you know, it's like I don't know, I I don't
Speaker 4: I don't feel like those steaks are necessarily They're not
Speaker 4: necessary to me. The but like, yeah, I agree definitely
Speaker 4: about oh the Nancy Jonathan enough enough and you know,
Speaker 4: like and you know, the Russia thing I was fine with,
Speaker 4: but it also was a little bit like okay, like oh,
Speaker 4: so you're gonna you're gonna go back into the Okay,
Speaker 4: so you broke out, then you get brought back, and
Speaker 4: then you break out and then you go back and
Speaker 4: then and then you go, Okay.
Speaker 5: I didn't love Russia. I definitely thought that Papa getting
Speaker 5: some sort of like little bit of validation with Eleven.
Speaker 5: At the end, I was like, no, this person was
Speaker 5: just a child. I mean, I guess I can see
Speaker 5: it from like that he as abusive as he was,
Speaker 5: he was a parental figure to her, but still like
Speaker 5: georgiand awful and abusive, and I did I'm glad that
Speaker 5: she just like walked away from his pleading corpse. But yeah,
Speaker 5: I think I am more in favor of character death
Speaker 5: than you are, because I do think It's not that
Speaker 5: I need it, and I certainly don't want it to
Speaker 5: become formulaic, but I do appreciate when characters die, and
Speaker 5: I think in some ways, like I think it gave
Speaker 5: adies character a wonderful arc. I will say that. And
Speaker 5: in some ways, I'm kind of glad I'm watching I'm
Speaker 5: reading this feedback now rather than when TJ first wrote
Speaker 5: it in because since then there's another TV show that
Speaker 5: I've been because since then there's another property that I've
Speaker 5: watched that and Paul and I have talked about, and
Speaker 5: I want to give my spoilers and something totally different,
Speaker 5: but where we've talked about that. Actually, like sometimes having
Speaker 5: a character just die instead of having like the great
Speaker 5: heroic moment death is a lot more satisfying, And we
Speaker 5: were talking about like that sometimes the every character gets
Speaker 5: to have this like great heroic death where the music
Speaker 5: swells and they make a brave last stand is kind
Speaker 5: of frustrating sometimes and like I hadn't thought about it
Speaker 5: at the time, but the more I think of it, like, yeah,
Speaker 5: like I think for Eddie to die during that sequence
Speaker 5: would make sense, and like the very fact that they're
Speaker 5: doing it is heroic, but him like being almost about
Speaker 5: to get out but then being like no, I've got
Speaker 5: to go back and like save things one more time,
Speaker 5: and maybe it is actually helpful, but like it's not
Speaker 5: really clear that it is, and it just it's it
Speaker 5: was done in such a way of like thirty seconds
Speaker 5: of build up that you know absolutely in your bones
Speaker 5: he's about to die. And I just think if it
Speaker 5: had just been them like rushing, rushing, rushing, and him
Speaker 5: like you know, getting dust in one more push and
Speaker 5: then just out of nowhere, one more thing comes and
Speaker 5: kills him, like that would have worked a lot better
Speaker 5: for me.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, me too. It I mean that they did
Speaker 4: the same thing with Samwise, right, I mean there's Rings
Speaker 4: of Power episodes, so you gotta gotta make the connection.
Speaker 4: But like I mean it when he when they showed
Speaker 4: the shot of like the gun sitting on the table
Speaker 4: before like uh Bob went back out, I'm like, oh,
Speaker 4: they're gonna kill a Bob. Like, you know. It's just
Speaker 4: I there's there's an extent to which though, I'll say,
Speaker 4: I kind of appreciate that because I feel like, as
Speaker 4: much as this show is horror, I feel like it's
Speaker 4: it's a little bit of a cozy in some ways. Yeah,
Speaker 4: you know, like it's not it doesn't like it feels
Speaker 4: like it's not everybody gets killed and there's an unhappy
Speaker 4: ending horror.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know.
Speaker 4: And so I appreciate when a show basically tells you
Speaker 4: in the early going kind of what it's about, you know,
Speaker 4: and kind of what the rules are, and you know,
Speaker 4: like episode one of Game of Thrones, someone pushes a
Speaker 4: child out a window like that, that tells you some
Speaker 4: things about the show, and then you know, you proceed
Speaker 4: at your own risk, right, Yeah. Spoilers for Game of
Speaker 4: Thrones episode one. But but like yeah, and oh yeah,
Speaker 4: and that kind of tells you what the show is
Speaker 4: going to be going forward. And that's not a show
Speaker 4: that I really liked at all, But I do appreciate
Speaker 4: that early on they made clear that's kind of what
Speaker 4: they were doing. And as much as the last season
Speaker 4: wasn't my least favorite season of the ones that I watched,
Speaker 4: I do empathize with people who had kind of been
Speaker 4: presented with a series doing one thing and then all
Speaker 4: of a sudden, it's doing it a different way. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and I will say that the series that you were
Speaker 4: talking about has managed to kill off a lot more
Speaker 4: characters without really bothering me in the same way that
Speaker 4: a lot of shows do, because it it feels matter
Speaker 4: of fact, and it feels like the show set up, no,
Speaker 4: this is this is how this is gonna work, and
Speaker 4: so I feel like the expectations were set and stranger
Speaker 4: things like I don't know, maybe they'll feel like they
Speaker 4: need to kill off a main character in the last season.
Speaker 4: I think that's likely. I don't really like that, but like,
Speaker 4: you know whatever, I think it also feel different like
Speaker 4: Bob Newby was in the first season.
Speaker 5: If I remember no no second season.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well my point the the demo dog season. Yeah,
Speaker 4: season two, that's true.
Speaker 5: My point is we haven't had well, okay, do we
Speaker 5: have a major character death in season one?
Speaker 4: There was justice for Nance right now?
Speaker 5: Right? Yeah?
Speaker 4: Not Nance.
Speaker 5: I guess what I'm saying is like, if it had
Speaker 5: been established that we were gonna have a major character
Speaker 5: death at the end of every season, I mean, no,
Speaker 5: I should take it. Never mind, I'm not gonna say
Speaker 5: that because all that's false. I'll start that again. Yeah.
Speaker 5: I think I hear where you're coming from, And like,
Speaker 5: there was so much about Eddie that I loved and
Speaker 5: I would have loved to see him continue. I think
Speaker 5: it made sense for his character. I think I just
Speaker 5: don't really know where they really would have gone with
Speaker 5: him in another season. But but and I get the
Speaker 5: idea of, like, just short of show just how bad
Speaker 5: things are going to be in this last season, that
Speaker 5: we've got to up the stakes a little bit. But
Speaker 5: you're right, I feel like if there's a if there's
Speaker 5: an earned death for another main character next season, I
Speaker 5: am I will enjoy it, but I certainly don't want
Speaker 5: it to feel like someone has to die and I
Speaker 5: will be perfectly okay, Like I will be okay if
Speaker 5: Max is dead or if Max is possessed. Like I
Speaker 5: love the character, I love the actress absolutely, but like
Speaker 5: I'm okay with that. I think they earned it in
Speaker 5: this season. But I definitely think like if a character
Speaker 5: dies next season and it works, sure, but I'm not
Speaker 5: gonna be angry if the whole gangs arrives.
Speaker 4: Right Yeah, yeah, I mean I wouldn't say i'd enjoy it,
Speaker 4: but like, you know, I'll watch the show and I'll
Speaker 4: feel how I feel, you know, justice for Barb, but
Speaker 4: that's the character we're looking for. Yeah, and that was
Speaker 4: like early on in the season, so but you know,
Speaker 4: I mean some people were upset about that, yeah, you know,
Speaker 4: and and kind of the way like she was just
Speaker 4: treated as kind of irrelevant. I think there was less
Speaker 4: that she died, even though I have a theory like
Speaker 4: maybe a lot of these people aren't actually dead dead,
Speaker 4: like they're maybe part of VECNA now, And I think
Speaker 4: it could be complicated. I do find if you almost
Speaker 4: kill a character and then you don't, and then you
Speaker 4: do kill them, that I no think.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, no, no, uh god, I can't remember his
Speaker 5: name of sheriff Man, the father figure Topper. Yeah, Hopper
Speaker 5: has to have plot armor from now on.
Speaker 4: I'll be so right he's yeah, yeah, there was. There's
Speaker 4: enough times that they made it seem like he died
Speaker 4: that then if then he didn't die, then it's like, okay,
Speaker 4: you can't do it again.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I will say that also. I think that's
Speaker 5: probably another big reason why I didn't like Russia more
Speaker 5: than I did, because I was like, really like, yeah, okay,
Speaker 5: Hopper's dead. We all have to deal with that. And
Speaker 5: then I think there's kind of a teaser at the
Speaker 5: end of the season that he's not dead, and I
Speaker 5: was like, I don't love this, but we'll see. And
Speaker 5: so then I could have felt like, Okay, if you're
Speaker 5: going to bring him back, which I don't love, you've
Speaker 5: got to really like give me a really good reason
Speaker 5: for it. And him just running around in Russia for
Speaker 5: the whole season was like just let him be dead,
Speaker 5: like that would have been a more powerful story.
Speaker 4: M Yeah. I think the idea is like in season five,
Speaker 4: then they get to be like a family or something
Speaker 4: like that. Maybe I don't know, but like yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 5: Jonathan can die I'm perfectly okay with that.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 5: I yeah, that's fair.
Speaker 4: Fair, I've said what I have to say.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's fair.
Speaker 4: But yeah, anyway, I do want to say one more
Speaker 4: thing about Stranger Things that isn't really about Stranger Things,
Speaker 4: but I want to say that I really enjoyed and
Speaker 4: Nola Holmes too, which is Millie Bobby Brown's you know,
Speaker 4: nice Holmes related mystery thing.
Speaker 5: So both you and Jessica Plumber have told me really
Speaker 5: good things. I did not enjoy the first and Nola
Speaker 5: Holmes in part because I thought like just Sherlock felt
Speaker 5: so on Sherlock for me, and I also just I
Speaker 5: kind of felt like they weren't giving her character enough
Speaker 5: credit in OLA's But like that's I don't I remember
Speaker 5: not liking it. I've then put it mostly out of
Speaker 5: my mind, so I don't remember why I didn't like
Speaker 5: it as much, but I'll get it on the shot
Speaker 5: because I keep hearing good things about it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would say without spoilers, I thought the second
Speaker 4: one was better than the first one, which I enjoyed,
Speaker 4: but I didn't love the first one. The second one
Speaker 4: I definitely enjoyed more, And I think you know, maybe
Speaker 4: maybe you'll feel differently about some of the things. There's
Speaker 4: a couple things that I think it does really well,
Speaker 4: that a lot of things do very specifically poorly. So
Speaker 4: I hope that you do watch it and then we
Speaker 4: actually cover it at some point because detection is a superpower.
Speaker 5: That I would agree with that. I would agree with that.
Speaker 4: And Sherlock Holmes is like a superman.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's fair like all right, so let's
Speaker 5: wrap it. But clearly as you as you can see,
Speaker 5: we love feedback. We'll happily discuss your feedback. You can
Speaker 5: send it in if you go to the Ethical Panda
Speaker 5: dot com you can find all the great places to
Speaker 5: send us feedback, the best way being Matthew at Theethical
Speaker 5: Panda dot com. But also you can find our feedback
Speaker 5: our Twitter. As long as Twitter exists, I may well
Speaker 5: be creating a hive mind that that I hear is
Speaker 5: the new thing that's replacing Twitter. Someone was promoting the
Speaker 5: idea of something called tribe social as the thing to
Speaker 5: replace Twitter, and like the word tribe having a lot
Speaker 5: of kind of like not kind of appropriating a word
Speaker 5: from indigenous communities that I don't really love in way
Speaker 5: a lot of people are not very happy with so
Speaker 5: rather not go to something all tribe. But you know,
Speaker 5: the the uh mastered it on. I've heard good things about,
Speaker 5: but also very complicated things. This other thing the hive.
Speaker 5: Maybe we'll check it out, but we'll see. I'll keep
Speaker 5: you all up to date with that, but most importantly,
Speaker 5: just send us your feedback. What'd you think? What do
Speaker 5: you think about all the stuff we talked about today
Speaker 5: in terms of rings of power? What do you think
Speaker 5: about the feedback we talked about? Do you want to
Speaker 5: not hear do you want to hear me and Paul
Speaker 5: get into more theological discussions or very much not. What's
Speaker 5: your take on that? Send it all to us. Meanwhile,
Speaker 5: Paul is zen Madman. Googling zen man Man, you'll find
Speaker 5: all the cool things Paul is up to. Paul will
Speaker 5: be coming out of their cave sometime after November and
Speaker 5: telling us more about the cool things that are up to.
Speaker 5: So wait with anticipation to that, and mostly as I well,
Speaker 5: I was gonna do a whole thing about how thankful
Speaker 5: I am, but actually I'm recordings if you before Thanksgiving,
Speaker 5: so come out after Thanksgiving. But I will just say
Speaker 5: I am just so thankful to you all as fans.
Speaker 5: I'm so thankful. I realized this that this podcast has
Speaker 5: been on the air for six years now and the
Speaker 5: numbers keep going up. The feedback is great, it has been.
Speaker 5: I started this podcast had a pretty hard time in
Speaker 5: my life, and Paul was incredible help to that. But
Speaker 5: just getting all the feedback with you and getting to
Speaker 5: feel like I'm having these conversations with you has really
Speaker 5: made such a difference for me, and I hope it
Speaker 5: has made a difference for you, and I hope you
Speaker 5: enjoy these and so I hope you have a good Thanksgiving.
Speaker 5: If you're not in a world where Thanksgiving is given
Speaker 5: at this point in time, I hope that just do
Speaker 5: whatever the hell you do in your country, and I
Speaker 5: hope it's good and you get to enjoying food with
Speaker 5: friends and family is always a good thing. So I'm
Speaker 5: totally babbling now and I'm trying to sign off. Zen
Speaker 5: Man Man, Zen mad Man, Google it the Ethical Panda,
Speaker 5: google it, Have a good night, have a good day,
Speaker 5: Peace be with you, have a good day, and everyone's
Speaker 5: having their own revolution. Focks out.
Speaker 4: Word. Just a short little thirty minutes of feedback all right,
Speaker 4: I'll hit stop and i'll