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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 5: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 4: Good evening. He could not stop what he was doing.
Speaker 4: It was either sex or suicide. It's often said that
Speaker 4: we will likely never understand how a person becomes a
Speaker 4: serial killer. However, I believe we can. In fact, we
Speaker 4: must if we are ever going to find a way
Speaker 4: to stop the sexual abuse of children. But it's not
Speaker 4: only the victims we want to save. We also want
Speaker 4: to stop our children from transforming themselves into killers. Arthur
Speaker 4: Gary Bishop and Wesley Allan Dodd had many things in common.
Speaker 4: They were both psychopathic pedophiles and prolific child molesters who
Speaker 4: eventually turned to killing their victims. Both were executed for
Speaker 4: their crimes at their own request. Most importantly, both desperately
Speaker 4: wanted to know one thing before they died, how did
Speaker 4: I become a serial killer? This book is an attempt
Speaker 4: to answer that question. The book they were featuring this
Speaker 4: evening is the Mind of a Devil, The Case of
Speaker 4: Arthur Gary Bishop and Wesley Allan Dodd, with my special guests,
Speaker 4: Doctor Al Carlyle. Welcome back to the program, and thank
Speaker 4: you very much for this interview, Doctor Al Carlisle. Hi, Dan, Yes,
Speaker 4: good evening, Doctor, welcome to the program.
Speaker 6: Okay, yes, thank you. I'm glad I got you.
Speaker 4: Yes, thank you very much. Let's get right into this.
Speaker 4: We've got a lot to cover and this is a
Speaker 4: fantastic book. The audience is going to love this. I
Speaker 4: extremely enjoyed your book about Bundy, and this is in
Speaker 4: the same vein incredible, incredible access that you had. You
Speaker 4: were employed at the Utah State Prison engaging in research
Speaker 4: on violent inmates, and the projects initially began when you
Speaker 4: completed a psychological assessment on Ted Bundy for the courts.
Speaker 4: Now you say in your book you didn't want to
Speaker 4: speak with convicted child killer Arthur Gary Bishop while you
Speaker 4: read this maximum facility of the Utah State Prison Death
Speaker 4: Row tell Us how you came to change your mind
Speaker 4: and why.
Speaker 6: Okay, yeah, my whole career was in the prison. He
Speaker 6: did various things in therapy and research and a lot
Speaker 6: of evaluations, and I worked primarily with violent people. And
Speaker 6: to talk to someone who's quiet violent, say a violent rapist,
Speaker 6: is one thing, but to talk to to someone who's
Speaker 6: killed children is totally another. And when Archbishop was sentenced
Speaker 6: to be executed, he came out and was on death row,
Speaker 6: and I went down and met with him and said,
Speaker 6: our doc from the psychology department and if there's anything
Speaker 6: you want, let me know. And I anticipated they say,
Speaker 6: I don't need anything, thank you, And then I would
Speaker 6: have walked away and say, well, I did what I'm
Speaker 6: supposed to do and that's it. But he said two things.
Speaker 6: He says, first of all, he wanted to die for
Speaker 6: killing those kids, and he actually had to fire his
Speaker 6: current lawyer's attorneys because they said they couldn't represent him
Speaker 6: to die early, and he had to hire a new
Speaker 6: set of attorneys who would and then but he got
Speaker 6: that approved by the court. And the other thing he wanted,
Speaker 6: he said, I want to understand why I killed those kids.
Speaker 6: How did I get to that? Place in the first place,
Speaker 6: and so I thought, boy, that's that's a good piece
Speaker 6: of research for all this stuff I'm doing on violence.
Speaker 6: And so that's we I met with him about two
Speaker 6: to three times a month until his execution. Then I
Speaker 6: was with him on the night he was executed.
Speaker 4: Yes, Now, in this research, you say that he sent
Speaker 4: you volumes of biographical data about him, biographical data about
Speaker 4: his childhood. Now let's go back. I do, yes, as
Speaker 4: you do, you go back to his childhood. Let's go
Speaker 4: to his childhood when you say he's born in nineteen
Speaker 4: fifty two in Hinckley, Utah, because you really get it
Speaker 4: from him, really what went on, because he, as we've
Speaker 4: just mentioned, he really wants to know how he became
Speaker 4: his person. So tell us about his early upbringing. What
Speaker 4: he had told you.
Speaker 6: Well, he came from an impact family. Both parents were
Speaker 6: fairly religious. Hinkley is a small town, very small town,
Speaker 6: and his grandmother, grandparents, grandmother and father lived close by.
Speaker 6: And in a small town like that, you know everybody,
Speaker 6: you have friends, you have family. And he remembers he
Speaker 6: come home from being out doing something as a child,
Speaker 6: and his mother would have hot rolls that had been
Speaker 6: set out on the window silled cool off and he
Speaker 6: could smell those and he came in and had a
Speaker 6: hot roll and honey and butter and you know all
Speaker 6: of that. So he was really fairly happy as a child.
Speaker 6: There was no no sexual abuse, no physical abuse. Now,
Speaker 6: so it started out fairly normal way.
Speaker 4: You talk about did also, sorry, go ahead, But.
Speaker 6: And he was religious. He went to church and was
Speaker 6: quite active, and as he got into his teens he
Speaker 6: continued to get good raids. He he started to develop
Speaker 6: an interest, and it wasn't so much as sexual interest.
Speaker 6: There was more of a curiosity about boys, and he
Speaker 6: found himself something akin to being a little turned off
Speaker 6: when turned on when you would see boys. But he
Speaker 6: didn't have any strong desire at this point. You know,
Speaker 6: the desire grew and it got very powerful over time.
Speaker 6: But he got high.
Speaker 4: Talk about school, go ahead, go ahead. Uh.
Speaker 6: He got good grades from school. He was an eagle scout,
Speaker 6: and he was respected by people. Now we find he
Speaker 6: did have somewhat of a temper, but the cause of
Speaker 6: that it is basically unknown. It's just like a lot
Speaker 6: of kids who get angry. So but basically he was
Speaker 6: a fairly normal kid.
Speaker 4: You talk about The religion though, that he did get
Speaker 4: involved with was the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
Speaker 4: day Saints. And we'll talk about later about a mission
Speaker 4: he goes through that's very, very importan in his development.
Speaker 4: Will say, now you say that he also what I
Speaker 4: mentioned religion is that because he had said to you
Speaker 4: that there was a strong belief that you shouldn't have
Speaker 4: sex with a woman a girl before marriage, and this
Speaker 4: was a sin. So he did live in again comparative
Speaker 4: to maybe now, a fairly religious home, with those kinds
Speaker 4: of ideas open to him.
Speaker 6: Yeah, but there was an interesting twist to all of that.
Speaker 6: He would hear religious people preach that it's moral to
Speaker 6: have sex before you get married and all of that,
Speaker 6: but nothing was said about it being wrong to have
Speaker 6: sex with the boy. Now, when he said that, my
Speaker 6: thought was, come on, all right, you got to be kidding.
Speaker 6: You're not that dumb. He insisted on that that for
Speaker 6: some reason he came out with that interpretation it's wrong
Speaker 6: to have sex with a girl, but no one has
Speaker 6: said anything about a boy, and therefore maybe it's not
Speaker 6: that wrong. And he held to that all the way through.
Speaker 6: And it's a weird pod that.
Speaker 4: He's a very intelligent young man too. We talk about
Speaker 4: he's very successful in school and business and in that department.
Speaker 4: But you also talk about I found interesting too when
Speaker 4: you talk about the bad temper, but you say, well
Speaker 4: he was, he grew up kind of normal. But when
Speaker 4: he did have as you mentioned, as you delved into
Speaker 4: this and got the entire report from him, that he
Speaker 4: mentions a couple incidents with you put them in about
Speaker 4: a baby pigeons and his yeah, and he's talk about that.
Speaker 4: But then we talk about later that anger increasing. So
Speaker 4: maybe to talk about this anger that he exhibits, and
Speaker 4: the story tells about the pigeons.
Speaker 6: He didn't have a general desire to hurt animals, but
Speaker 6: he saw the other kids with their b beguns shooting
Speaker 6: birds and other things, and so he at first he thought, okay,
Speaker 6: that's that's wrong. I don't want to do that. And
Speaker 6: but then he got angry at one time about something
Speaker 6: and he killed some pigeons and he felt bad about it.
Speaker 6: Now later on, later on, after his whole sexual habit had,
Speaker 6: Builton was extremely strong. He and he was living on
Speaker 6: his own in Salt Lake. He would get some puppies
Speaker 6: and he loved a little puppies, but he'd get mad
Speaker 6: at him if they had pittle on the floor, he
Speaker 6: would hit him, and some he choked him to death
Speaker 6: and then he would cry afterwards. And some he just
Speaker 6: beat to death and then he cried. Then he missed dog,
Speaker 6: so he'd go out get another one. But this was
Speaker 6: a time when he had totally violated his belief about
Speaker 6: who he should be, what he wanted to be in
Speaker 6: the future. And so, yeah, he was very cruel. Later on.
Speaker 4: You talk about this strong moral code that he believed
Speaker 4: to have, and then so you talk talk about him
Speaker 4: believing that he should pray to God for help because
Speaker 4: he kept talking about things being out of control. And
Speaker 4: this is earlier on. He even felt that things were
Speaker 4: out of his control.
Speaker 6: Yeah, he was religious and he would go to church
Speaker 6: all the time, and you know, he became an Eagle Scout,
Speaker 6: and a lot of it was because his mother was
Speaker 6: quite religious and she was active in her church, and
Speaker 6: he always wanted to please his mother. It was very
Speaker 6: important to him. He started developing this desire or to
Speaker 6: see what kids would look like when they were naked
Speaker 6: and that and then he cuts himself and say he
Speaker 6: doesn't want to do that. He shouldn't do that, that's
Speaker 6: not who he is and all of that. But so prayed,
Speaker 6: but nothing really changed. And of course we can't blame
Speaker 6: God for that. I don't believe, but nothing changed. But
Speaker 6: the thing he did not do. And you can sort
Speaker 6: of understand this, he didn't ever tell anyone, Hey, I've
Speaker 6: got a problem. I've got a problem and I need help.
Speaker 6: And it's to me a very strong principle is the
Speaker 6: person is controlled by the secret things that bother them.
Speaker 4: Certainly, you talk about this challenge that he puts himself in.
Speaker 4: He is with the Latter day Saints and they go
Speaker 4: on missions, and he's picked to go on a mission,
Speaker 4: and he goes to the Philippines. He's twenty one years old.
Speaker 4: This is nineteen seventy one, and he already has he
Speaker 4: urges and he wants he thinks his sex life is
Speaker 4: out of control and his urges out of control. Tell
Speaker 4: us about this trip and what is accomplished or not
Speaker 4: accomplished when he goes to the Philippines. What happens there?
Speaker 6: Okay, In the LDS religion, person if he wants to
Speaker 6: is asked to go for two years at their own expense.
Speaker 6: And they're sent somewhere to preach about the religion. And
Speaker 6: so the bishop approaches him and says, art, how'd you
Speaker 6: logic go on a mission? And he's thinking, yes, I
Speaker 6: want to because I will please my mom. And yes
Speaker 6: I want to because maybe then I can get control
Speaker 6: over these urges. It's starting to get out of hand
Speaker 6: and find myself sexually attracted to boys and not girls.
Speaker 6: And so he was hoping that by going on a
Speaker 6: mission that God then would take away those urges and
Speaker 6: so you wouldn't have them anymore. So do you mean
Speaker 6: to see more about the mission? Now?
Speaker 4: Sure? What happens? I mean, yeah, okay, absolutely.
Speaker 6: So he goes to the Philippines and a missionary is
Speaker 6: with a companion and they go out and visit people together,
Speaker 6: and he's out there and he sees these naked boys
Speaker 6: and he's thinking, I'm not going to look at him.
Speaker 6: I'm going to control with the lucky landslops.
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Speaker 6: Stown all this is not going to get out of hand.
Speaker 6: So he looks away, and he doesn't look at him,
Speaker 6: and he's very proud of the fact that he is
Speaker 6: controlling it. Well, he's there about a year and he's
Speaker 6: feeling good, except he is beginning to feel lonely and
Speaker 6: he's beginning to feel bored. You know, the same thing
Speaker 6: over and go over again, which is going out and
Speaker 6: meet these people and converting them and so.
Speaker 4: On.
Speaker 6: This one day there's this little boy who is in
Speaker 6: the room and he's naked, and he's sitting on a pot,
Speaker 6: going the bathroom in the pot in that room with
Speaker 6: him in the front room, and he finds himself getting
Speaker 6: turned on, really turned on that it bothers him. And
Speaker 6: then he goes and he's taking a shower that night,
Speaker 6: and he finds himself climaxing in the shower and it's
Speaker 6: not that he wanted to because he's trying not to that.
Speaker 6: He climaxes in the shower, and then you find that
Speaker 6: this is one of the major turns in his whole life,
Speaker 6: because at that point he's feeling very guilty, and he's thinking,
Speaker 6: although this is not the eldest belief, he's thinking that
Speaker 6: I repented and God forgave me, and I was doing
Speaker 6: well and I was feeding his spirit and everything was
Speaker 6: going fine. And now I do this, and therefore I
Speaker 6: have sinned, and God will be disappointed in me, and
Speaker 6: I won't have his spirit anymore, and therefore all the
Speaker 6: repentance I've done over the last year has been undone.
Speaker 6: And he gets very depressed it and now I don't know
Speaker 6: if it's the next day of riches. Very soon, he
Speaker 6: tells his companion, you go visit the people today. I'm
Speaker 6: not feeding well. I'm going to stay home. So the
Speaker 6: companion goes out and visits some families and he takes
Speaker 6: a bottle of bottle of pills, wail of ashfood, and
Speaker 6: he's laying there, laying there thinking, so this is what
Speaker 6: it's like to die. And he's feeding peace because he's
Speaker 6: thinking all of my struggles will be over. Pukes him
Speaker 6: all up and he's just very sick. And then he
Speaker 6: tells his mission president that he he's depressed. He wants
Speaker 6: to go home. Mission president calls him in and talks
Speaker 6: to him. And the thing he doesn't do, he doesn't
Speaker 6: tell the mission president anything about this sexual stuff. All
Speaker 6: he said is I'm depressed and I'm missing home and
Speaker 6: I like to go home. Well, the mission president talks
Speaker 6: to him and gives him a blessing, and when Art
Speaker 6: walks out of that, he feels energized. He's enthusiastic. He feels, Okay,
Speaker 6: I can do this, I can make it. It's going to
Speaker 6: be fine. And he is then made a supervisor over
Speaker 6: some other missionaries. But Art is not one who can
Speaker 6: really tell people what to do, you know, he's passive.
Speaker 6: And then that doesn't work out so well, so he
Speaker 6: goes to another place. But he makes it to his
Speaker 6: second year and he comes home. And when he comes home,
Speaker 6: now a return missionary is highly respected the ward members
Speaker 6: and other people with family and cousins, and everyone looks
Speaker 6: up to this person and says, wow, here's the return missionary. Great,
Speaker 6: he's been out there serving God for two years at
Speaker 6: his own expense, in which the parents have generally who
Speaker 6: wants who pay for this? And so he comes back
Speaker 6: and he's still feeling very disappointed and he feels like
Speaker 6: he doesn't want to be active. So he gets a
Speaker 6: job and the job is one where he works every
Speaker 6: other Sunday. He thinks, Okay, that's what I want to
Speaker 6: do out the brilliant plan, because that way I won't
Speaker 6: have to go to church. And one day he's in
Speaker 6: church and when the leaders come up to him and says,
Speaker 6: art in Sunday school, his teacher didn't show up. How
Speaker 6: the teacher can't come and teach this Sunday school class
Speaker 6: for kids are about fourteen fifteen years old? Could you
Speaker 6: take the class? And they're thinking, well, you know, return
Speaker 6: missionary can just step up and they've got lots to
Speaker 6: talk about and they can step into that place and
Speaker 6: do a great job. Well, he bombs it and he
Speaker 6: apologizes to the kids and he's thinking, you know, I
Speaker 6: can't do this anymore. And so he's feeding extremely ashamed,
Speaker 6: and so he gets him a motorcycle with the money
Speaker 6: he's making and drives around on it. And one day
Speaker 6: he picks up this kid and is giving him a
Speaker 6: ride and he sexually fondles the kid, and then he's
Speaker 6: really ashamed of himself and he tells the kid, please
Speaker 6: don't tell anyone that the kid is related to a
Speaker 6: lady who knows his Art's grandmother very well. And so
Speaker 6: in esthence you say, I've got to get out of here.
Speaker 6: I can't live this way. I'm not worthy of it.
Speaker 6: So he moves up Salt Lake and goes to school,
Speaker 6: gets his degree in accounting and does quite well in school,
Speaker 6: but he starts getting sexually involved. He's living with an
Speaker 6: aunt for a while and he's fondling some of her boys,
Speaker 6: and then he wants to move out because he thinks, okay,
Speaker 6: they're going to tell. And then we get through the
Speaker 6: whole next section of his life where he's sexually interested
Speaker 6: in kids, and he develop helps this technique. It's taking
Speaker 6: pictures of the genitals of boys, and he has no
Speaker 6: interest in girls. No, he would like to get married
Speaker 6: and have kids, but he doesn't want to date. He
Speaker 6: has no interest in girls. And what he's doing is technique,
Speaker 6: and he keeps using this over and over again for years.
Speaker 6: The technique is to tell a kid that someone is
Speaker 6: has something on him, and Art has to take pictures
Speaker 6: of the genitals, because the person who is doing this
Speaker 6: has a sexual desire for kids. So he says, look,
Speaker 6: let me just take a picture of your genitals and
Speaker 6: I'll send it this guy, and I'll give you fifty
Speaker 6: bucks for right. I won't take your picture of your face,
Speaker 6: just your generals. And and so the kids start saying, okay,
Speaker 6: you know, no face, no one can recognize me. Just
Speaker 6: that takes a picture, give the kids fifty bucks. And
Speaker 6: he gets some kids doing that. But what's happening, the problem,
Speaker 6: sexual problem just gets worse and worse and worse. Then
Speaker 6: he he literally falls in love with a couple of
Speaker 6: young boys. It becomes very jealous, and this is a
Speaker 6: big part of him. And also Beefey Dodd who molested,
Speaker 6: killed three boys, blessed a lot of kids. But Art
Speaker 6: put six thousand dollars down on the home and he
Speaker 6: gets a nice bed, and he has this one boy
Speaker 6: who is willing to come over and just sleep with him,
Speaker 6: and all of this, and he's starting to get involved
Speaker 6: sexually involved with kids beyond just the picture taking, a
Speaker 6: lot of touching, a lot of just mutual masturbation and
Speaker 6: things like that. But he gets fearful of these kids
Speaker 6: are going to grow up and leave him. He is
Speaker 6: a very lonely kid at this time. He cut off
Speaker 6: his family and so they don't know just where he's at.
Speaker 6: He goes and talks to the bishop of his ward
Speaker 6: in Salt Lake and he tells the bishop he wants
Speaker 6: to be excommunicated from the church. And the bishop says why,
Speaker 6: and he says, because I've been immoral with a girl.
Speaker 6: I am being immoral with a girl, and I want
Speaker 6: to get excommunicated.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 6: I ask him, what why you had such a strong
Speaker 6: belief in God before? Why now are you just cutting
Speaker 6: everything off, your family, your religion, your deity, all of this.
Speaker 6: And he said, I figured, if I'm a member of
Speaker 6: the church, God expects a lot more of me. But
Speaker 6: if I'm not a member of the church, God will
Speaker 6: expect less of me. And therefore, by the devil and
Speaker 6: maybe I can get control of this. So, in essence,
Speaker 6: he's cut up all of his support system and all
Speaker 6: he has. He's an accountant. He gets good jobs. He's
Speaker 6: very good. He can talk almost anyone into hiring him.
Speaker 6: And he's good at what he does, bookkeeping, and he
Speaker 6: embezzles money because he wants to buy things for the
Speaker 6: kids need to think it enough. He wants to buy
Speaker 6: this kid a bike. He wants to buy this kid
Speaker 6: some games and all of that stuff. So now he's embezzling.
Speaker 6: And then he gets caught and people find out about
Speaker 6: the kids, and the kids leave him. But he's just
Speaker 6: very lonely, very empty. And now he's been picked up
Speaker 6: on an embezzlement charge. And he said he embezzled what
Speaker 6: thirty seven forty thousand dollars something, Yeah, hem bezzled a
Speaker 6: lot of money. Yeah, And when he went to a
Speaker 6: halfway house, went to court in a halfway house. The judge,
Speaker 6: looking at all of that, says, okay, here's the return missionary.
Speaker 6: He's been very active in the church and he's never
Speaker 6: had been arrested. He's basically a good kid. And there
Speaker 6: for will put him on probation. And he goes to
Speaker 6: that halfway out community center and he finds that the
Speaker 6: guy's really looked down on anyone who's been a sex offender.
Speaker 6: And he begins to think, if I get picked up
Speaker 6: on his sex charge, I'll go to prison and they'll
Speaker 6: rape me, they'll beat me up, they may kill me.
Speaker 6: Because I'm coming in on sex charge on a child,
Speaker 6: And so that brings us up to that point of
Speaker 6: the first Thomiside.
Speaker 4: You talk about. October seventeenth, nineteen seventy nine, Alonzo Daniels.
Speaker 4: And he's working as a bookkeeper at a steel company,
Speaker 4: and so he he's short on money, like you say,
Speaker 4: for buying gifts. He's been already convicted of embezzlement. He's
Speaker 4: in therapy for that embezzlement, and so supposed to tell us,
Speaker 4: and he's also supposed to tell his probation officer about
Speaker 4: any children. He's not allowed around children. So tell us
Speaker 4: set up the situation where he comes into contact with
Speaker 4: Alonzo Daniels. October nineteen seventy eight. Eight.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah, he's been a therapist and he had one therapist.
Speaker 6: He didn't care for her very much. But he got
Speaker 6: another therapist and he really liked him. And this is
Speaker 6: a highly respected therapist in Salt Lake, and so he
Speaker 6: liked going to him. But again, he was talking about
Speaker 6: the embezzlement. He wasn't saying anything about desires for kids.
Speaker 6: And he's working and one day he comes home for
Speaker 6: lunch and he's in one of these apartment complexes where
Speaker 6: you have two apartments on the bottom, two on the
Speaker 6: top about them, and you have stead of stairs that
Speaker 6: go up and go up into the upper apartment. So
Speaker 6: he's downstairs in his apartment and a little Alonso is
Speaker 6: out there and playing, and Art finds himself getting turned
Speaker 6: on by the kid, and so he asked the kid
Speaker 6: to come in. He says, hey, would you like to
Speaker 6: would you like to come in and inhabit sandwich and
Speaker 6: that type of thing, And so Alonzo came in and this,
Speaker 6: you know, he is supposed to go back to work
Speaker 6: about one o'clock, but he started puddling the boy as
Speaker 6: the boy was sitting at the table, and the boys
Speaker 6: started crying, and Art got scared, and because he just
Speaker 6: knew the kid was going to go kill his mom,
Speaker 6: and so he killed a kid. And yet the book
Speaker 6: I tried to minimize just the way he did these things,
Speaker 6: you know, because his book is very hard to read.
Speaker 6: It's it's I think exceptionally good insofar as telling the
Speaker 6: details of how the person became this way as a killer,
Speaker 6: but it's hard to read because it's killing children. But
Speaker 6: he kills him in many years, the mom going out
Speaker 6: calling to the boy and going up and down, you know.
Speaker 6: And then that night he buries the takes a kid out,
Speaker 6: buries him, feeding very guilty. He feels the house is haunted.
Speaker 6: He has nightmares. And but he said something that was
Speaker 6: very interesting. He said that when he killed the boy,
Speaker 6: he said, something left me. And he pointed to his
Speaker 6: chest when he said that, and is like and he
Speaker 6: equator to his conscience, and he said, it just left me.
Speaker 6: And after that I didn't have any difficulty killing kids.
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Speaker 6: No, and the flip side of that is, he really did,
Speaker 6: and something interesting happened with Alonzo and then with Kim
Speaker 6: the next one. It was though when he killed them,
Speaker 6: he went into sort of a dazed state. No, almost
Speaker 6: like it wasn't him. It was like someone else. All
Speaker 6: the point knew it was him. But then with the
Speaker 6: last ones he felt the reality and he couldn't escape
Speaker 6: the feeding of reality. And there he's scared.
Speaker 4: You talk about too that when you talk he is
Speaker 4: by now having an alias and Lynn Jones he's got
Speaker 4: as security guard and driver's license. There's a warrant out
Speaker 4: for him, so now he's so he's disassociating literally in
Speaker 4: that way as well. And then when he kills this
Speaker 4: Kim Peterson, it's interesting that Jess was a Jess gave
Speaker 4: gave him a ride, Art gave Jess a ride home.
Speaker 4: He called to say he needed a ride. So he
Speaker 4: said he's cool and calm and able to be able
Speaker 4: to do these murders and adapt and then act normal
Speaker 4: with and then still have this relationship with these kids
Speaker 4: at the same time that he's gone much much further.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and that's I think Danny Davis you're talking about there.
Speaker 6: Kim was the one who had some roller skates and
Speaker 6: Art says, okay, let's go out and go honting out here,
Speaker 6: and so Kim went with him, and then Kim says,
Speaker 6: you know I can't, and because Art wanted to sexually
Speaker 6: perform on him, Kim says, you know I can report
Speaker 6: you for this, and so you need to start giving
Speaker 6: me money. And then that's when Art shot him and
Speaker 6: buried the body and said too because Alonzo was right
Speaker 6: there as well, and he said to Alonzai, okay, now
Speaker 6: here you have a friend, and then he went back
Speaker 6: and Yeah, Danny Davis, that was an interesting one because
Speaker 6: little Danny within his store with his grandfather, I think
Speaker 6: is Smiths in Salt Lake, and there's a lot of
Speaker 6: interesting things about this story. But Danny happened to be
Speaker 6: alone and Art walked up to him and said, you
Speaker 6: want to play some toys if you do come with
Speaker 6: me and walked out, and the boy happened to follow him.
Speaker 6: Then he got out of the park a lont to
Speaker 6: grab the kid. Myself and another psychologist at the prison,
Speaker 6: doctor Alan Rowe, we were asked by the police to
Speaker 6: do hypnosis with some of the people who thought they
Speaker 6: might have seen the perpetrator walk out of the store.
Speaker 6: And it's interesting all the different stories we got, you know. Okay,
Speaker 6: they came out and he jumped in his car and
Speaker 6: drove off. He grabbed his kid and put him in
Speaker 6: the car and drove off, you know, And none of
Speaker 6: that happened. But there are a lot of people who
Speaker 6: wanted to help and gave lots of different stories. And
Speaker 6: whereas when Art got the boy, he went around the
Speaker 6: back and over and crossed the street into his place.
Speaker 6: And yeah, and you know, you really feel sorry sorry
Speaker 6: for the families of these kids. And he changed. Art
Speaker 6: changed his name, and he changed his identification, you know.
Speaker 6: And I asked him, I said, well, how'd you get
Speaker 6: another driver's lights, another social Security card? And he explained
Speaker 6: how he did it, And there were people that he
Speaker 6: found he could do it with pretty easily. And he
Speaker 6: decided to stay in Salt Lake because he now had
Speaker 6: another name and a warrant was out for his arrest,
Speaker 6: and he figured as long because he didn't do anything
Speaker 6: to get arrested, that they wouldn't know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you talk about this eerie part of it again,
Speaker 4: very movie esque. He goes back to the store to
Speaker 4: get some snacks for the kid, yeah, and for pardon me,
Speaker 4: for his friends. Later after he kills Danny and then
Speaker 4: sees one of the employees talking to a police officer
Speaker 4: and he asked, well, what's what's going on and they said, well,
Speaker 4: somebody has misplaced their grandson. So, you know, pure, pure
Speaker 4: example of evil, certainly.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And he feels real bad about that. He feels guilty,
Speaker 6: so he has to leave. And aren't felt guilty about
Speaker 6: these things over and over and over again. And there's
Speaker 6: a quote I have on him in the beginning of
Speaker 6: the book where he says that when you get this,
Speaker 6: he says, even after witnessing the grief and pain I've caused,
Speaker 6: still my innermost thoughts and desires are for evil. The
Speaker 6: god of Pedophiia has captured my heart, and no other
Speaker 6: desires seems so real, strong, insistent, or pleasurable is this.
Speaker 6: I know the things I've done are sick and revolting
Speaker 6: to anyone who's normal. Yet I yet inside I feared
Speaker 6: that I would continue such atrocities if given the opportunity.
Speaker 6: The compulsion to do so is too strong for me
Speaker 6: to permanently overcome. Now, he said that worshiping pornography was
Speaker 6: just like worshiping of God, and he knew that he
Speaker 6: could never stop.
Speaker 4: He also has one of the most disturbing quotes is
Speaker 4: that he to explain why he could continue so seemingly
Speaker 4: easily even though he was remorseful when you spoke to
Speaker 4: him and all these guards remarked, is that he said,
Speaker 4: you can only go to hell once.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not going to be any worse
Speaker 6: killing a second person because of that, and he developed
Speaker 6: the capability and this is where the whole psychopathic process
Speaker 6: comes in. He developed the capability that when he started
Speaker 6: feeding guilt, he would put it out of his mind.
Speaker 6: And if he felt guilt about having killed a kid,
Speaker 6: it starts thinking about the next adventure, the next one.
Speaker 6: And Wesley Dodds who killed the three kids up to
Speaker 6: the Northwest, he did the same thing and as the
Speaker 6: create themselves as a psychopath rather than being born with it.
Speaker 4: Absolutely. Now you talk about too, that this escalation and acceleration,
Speaker 4: You talk about that he wanted the next time make
Speaker 4: the murder more memorable. And I think this is I've
Speaker 4: read this quite a bit, that it's never satisfying enough.
Speaker 4: And so even though you say he's totally regretting, but
Speaker 4: they are planning and fantasizing about things better than the
Speaker 4: last time, aren't they.
Speaker 6: Yes? Yeah. And Wesley Dodd is a good one as
Speaker 6: an example on this. When West Dodd started molesting kids
Speaker 6: and he was a teenager around fifteen years old, and
Speaker 6: he was asked to babysit, and he went to babysit
Speaker 6: and there was I think two or three kids when
Speaker 6: I was a boy, and he did some sexual things
Speaker 6: with the boy, and then when he came home he thought,
Speaker 6: the next time, I've got to make a list of
Speaker 6: everything I want to do, because there are some things
Speaker 6: I forgot. And it's like he's saying, if I'm going
Speaker 6: to do something as dramatic, powerful evil as this, if
Speaker 6: I'm going to go that far, then I might as
Speaker 6: well do everything I can and get everything I can
Speaker 6: out of it, or else I'm going to regret I didn't.
Speaker 4: Absolutely Now, when let's talk just briefly about there's another
Speaker 4: two murders, there's five murders in total. Yeah, how does
Speaker 4: he finally get arrested and what happens that the police
Speaker 4: know the whereabouts and the details so quickly tell us
Speaker 4: about the circumstances when he is finally arrested.
Speaker 6: Okay, so's he kills the child and then he waits
Speaker 6: for a while, and then he kills another child and
Speaker 6: waits for a while, and then the last two months,
Speaker 6: last two months, everything is falling apart. He's still working,
Speaker 6: he's doing fine in his work, but he's he's noticing
Speaker 6: on them. On the one before, he's noticing that he's
Speaker 6: in reality. That is, he gets this one kid and
Speaker 6: he talks me into coming downstairs, and he's thinking of
Speaker 6: setting up a contraption down there where the kid would
Speaker 6: lay down and he could chain him down and then
Speaker 6: sexually melice him and kill him. And he's thinking of
Speaker 6: having a cage or something down there to do that.
Speaker 6: So he gets this kid down there and he pulls
Speaker 6: out a gun, points at the boy and says, I
Speaker 6: want you to lay down and put these handcuffs put
Speaker 6: around the pole and put them on, and the kid
Speaker 6: talks him out of it, and then Art feels bad.
Speaker 6: He cries. He hugs the kid and he says, I'm sorry,
Speaker 6: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Let the kid go. Well, the
Speaker 6: kid knows the family and he doesn't kill that boy.
Speaker 6: And then he and the kid he's befriended from the
Speaker 6: scene mother and he spends some time living with them.
Speaker 6: A few months. They're going to go to California to Disneyland,
Speaker 6: and so they planned the whole thing. But he gets
Speaker 6: this kid to come over, Graham Cunningham. He calls him
Speaker 6: and gets him to come over. So let's come home.
Speaker 6: Let's plan just some last details about stuff. We're going
Speaker 6: Saturday morning, and the kid comes over and he bless
Speaker 6: the kid, and then he kills him, and he's feeling
Speaker 6: bad about this. But comes Saturday morning, you know, well,
Speaker 6: the mother calls calls around because the boy Graham doesn't
Speaker 6: come home. I think so at first, unit doesn't come home,
Speaker 6: and she calls around and says, our if you've seen
Speaker 6: him while he was here, I gave him a form
Speaker 6: to fill out regarding medical things on the trip, and
Speaker 6: so he left so she can't find him, and the
Speaker 6: next day he can't find him. She calls the police
Speaker 6: and they can't do anything that night because he's just
Speaker 6: a missing boy. But the next day they start looking,
Speaker 6: and Saturday morning it comes and so Jess and Art
Speaker 6: and Graham are the three of the us supposed to
Speaker 6: go to California to Disneyland Arts pain for all of this,
Speaker 6: and but Graham of course is not there because he's deceased.
Speaker 6: And so the mother and you know, calling the police
Speaker 6: and Graham. No, Jess says, the mother will stay, We'll stay,
Speaker 6: you know, because Jeff really didn't want to go that much,
Speaker 6: and that's why you wanted Graham to, because Jess and
Speaker 6: Graham are good friends. And so Jess says, hey, I'll
Speaker 6: stay and I'll help you look for him. And the
Speaker 6: men that says, no, it's okay, you just you and Art.
Speaker 6: You go ahead and go, And so they get an
Speaker 6: our card and they go, and paradomically, Jess gets on
Speaker 6: the phone and calls back and say, if you found
Speaker 6: him yet, No, he may have run away because he
Speaker 6: had threatened to run away once before. And all the
Speaker 6: time Art is dead. They want to go to this
Speaker 6: restaurant Art has been to before, and he loves the food,
Speaker 6: and he's thinking, Okay, this is the last time I'll
Speaker 6: be here, and various things. He keeps thinking, this is
Speaker 6: the last time I'll be doing this. It seems like
Speaker 6: subconsciously at least, he knows it's over. And so he
Speaker 6: comes back and they stop being in beaver Utah for
Speaker 6: the knight because I think Art has a massive headache,
Speaker 6: and come back the next day and the mother calls
Speaker 6: and said, hey, when you get back, the police want
Speaker 6: to talk to you. And the back and the mother
Speaker 6: asks Art about Graham and turns out that Art indicates
Speaker 6: or it shows that he's the last person to have
Speaker 6: seen him. And then the police come and they start
Speaker 6: interrogating him, and they're only king for the connection to
Speaker 6: Graham at this point. But after a bit, after some
Speaker 6: hours of this, and then Art says to him, look,
Speaker 6: i'll tell you if you'll promise to give me some help,
Speaker 6: And of course Detective Bill says, oh, yeah, sure, we'll
Speaker 6: do that. And he said, look, yeah, I killed him,
Speaker 6: and I put the body in the creek up the canyon,
Speaker 6: and I also killed these other kids. I'll show you
Speaker 6: where I put the bodies of the first two and
Speaker 6: the others. I just wanted some help. Well, he showed
Speaker 6: him where the bodies were, and of course they locked
Speaker 6: him up. He went to went to I got Nessa
Speaker 6: Sales is a good, good attorney, and she was his attorney.
Speaker 6: And but then he gets convicted and sent out to prison.
Speaker 6: And that's where I committed picture.
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Speaker 4: about Wesley Alan Dodd, and before we get into that,
Speaker 4: because I don't think we can go as far into
Speaker 4: the story as we did with Gary Arthur Arthur, Gary Bishop.
Speaker 4: But let's talk about some of the things the similarities
Speaker 4: in the Wesley Allan Dodd case. When you talk about
Speaker 4: the early life of Wesley Allen Dodd, it was different.
Speaker 4: So let's start right there with Wesley Allen Dodd and
Speaker 4: his early upbringing and what was different.
Speaker 6: Hey. One of the major things that seemed to have
Speaker 6: happened to West. He was the first child. He was
Speaker 6: a couple of years older, and a brother was born.
Speaker 6: A year or two after that, a sister was born,
Speaker 6: and the attention was put on the brother. And after
Speaker 6: Wes came to prison, his father visited him and said, Wes,
Speaker 6: when your brother was born, you just crawled into a
Speaker 6: corner and didn't come out. And Wes said, he had
Speaker 6: all the toys he wanted, everything was great, and doing
Speaker 6: a lot of things with cousins, but he never felt
Speaker 6: like he really belonged in the family, and he didn't
Speaker 6: start out the art started out with the sexual attraction boys.
Speaker 6: West didn't. He would get out his bicycle when he
Speaker 6: was thirt eighteen, to get on his bicycle and go
Speaker 6: for long rides, and he came to this settling pond,
Speaker 6: and so he went step by step. He thought this
Speaker 6: is great. And then he'd go out there, spend a
Speaker 6: lot of time, go out there, and he'd take off
Speaker 6: his clothes and sit there naked. Then he would walk
Speaker 6: a certain from this to that naked, and then he
Speaker 6: get on his bike and ride naked. And he built
Speaker 6: him a little raft and he got on that and
Speaker 6: be out there naked, and he thought, this is wonderful,
Speaker 6: is exciting. And someone came over the hill in the
Speaker 6: car as such, I could just go right into this
Speaker 6: water and I'd be fine. But he started being attracted
Speaker 6: to boys and girls. You know, he didn't care. He
Speaker 6: wanted his sister and some others to show themselves naked,
Speaker 6: and then he would do the same and such. And
Speaker 6: then he laid naked in the bed and Dad says, Wes,
Speaker 6: you got to put your clothes on. And Wes says,
Speaker 6: but Dad, you go to sleep naked. Why can't I?
Speaker 6: And then Dad said, oh, damn it, do it anyway,
Speaker 6: and Wes would then would cut. Dad would say, oh
Speaker 6: for health, thanks God's sake, stop cussing. He says, you're cussing.
Speaker 6: West would be angry because Dad can do it, but
Speaker 6: I can't anyway. So he started developing an interest in that.
Speaker 6: And the big turning point well, first of all, as
Speaker 6: a as an early teen in his junior high he
Speaker 6: was small for his age, she was young. He and
Speaker 6: when they would go in the shower, there's the guys
Speaker 6: that make fun of him, and one guy says, guy
Speaker 6: I'll give you some of mine. And everybody laughed, and
Speaker 6: West did no wise. Talking about you know, a girl said, hey,
Speaker 6: westr Epidermacy showing. And so he looked down and see
Speaker 6: hees and zipped and she laughed and laughed laughed him.
Speaker 6: So you know, he was just humiliated. So kids, then,
Speaker 6: boys young or young or girls were something he really wanted.
Speaker 6: So one day he was standing up in his parents'
Speaker 6: bedroom corner room looking out the window. The street in
Speaker 6: front of him had kids coming from elementary school. And
Speaker 6: so one day when kids were coming down, he made
Speaker 6: sure there was no adults on the road, there were
Speaker 6: no cards on the road. There was just a few kids,
Speaker 6: and he pulled out in his pants and he exhibited
Speaker 6: himself out the curtain and kids laughed, and one kids says,
Speaker 6: do it again, And he did it again, and someone
Speaker 6: actually went and got another kid to come back. And
Speaker 6: so this was a big turning point because he found
Speaker 6: the kids really liked it. And after about six weeks,
Speaker 6: and you've been exposed himself again and again and again.
Speaker 6: After about six weeks, a cop came to the door.
Speaker 6: Didn't come in. The cop says, you know, a report
Speaker 6: has been that someone here has exposed himself out of
Speaker 6: a window, and Wes is upstairs. He's thirteen years old.
Speaker 6: He's upstairs listening to this, and the cop says, well,
Speaker 6: there's no charges, just can you kind of watch it
Speaker 6: and if it's going on, tell him to stop, and
Speaker 6: he leaves and west up there. Thought, this is one
Speaker 6: smart thirteen year old. The kids like it, parents don't care,
Speaker 6: the police don't care, and so he decided he's going
Speaker 6: to keep doing it.
Speaker 4: Talk about one incident around the same time in seventh grade,
Speaker 4: one topic seemed to really fascinate him, and he saw
Speaker 4: a film one day. Tell us about his experience looking
Speaker 4: at something regarding the Nazis.
Speaker 6: Yeah, he was fascinated by it. He's fascinated by the
Speaker 6: dead bodies he saw. He was also fascinated by national
Speaker 6: geography where he can see naked kids in some of
Speaker 6: the pictures. That he became interested in death and the sex,
Speaker 6: and so he would go to the library and check
Speaker 6: out everything he could relative to the concentration camps and
Speaker 6: the death things, and would look at any films he
Speaker 6: could find. And then around this time there was a
Speaker 6: time that he and a friend of his in the
Speaker 6: house were watching uh cartoon, as I remember, and somehow
Speaker 6: it got switched and there was a naked woman there
Speaker 6: laying there, and then it was switched off again. It's
Speaker 6: just an accidental thing. And the dad came home and said,
Speaker 6: did you see that? Says yeah, West says, well, I
Speaker 6: thought it was a guy because the breasts were pretty flat.
Speaker 6: And the dad laughed and laughed and laughed, and West
Speaker 6: felt very, very humiliated because you know, the dad says, well,
Speaker 6: you really don't know anything about sex, that, do you. So,
Speaker 6: But he found the kids. That was his his release,
Speaker 6: his enjoyment in life.
Speaker 4: Now you talk about too another ramatic event, according to him,
Speaker 4: at fifteen years of a fifteen years of age, his
Speaker 4: birthday is July third, and in nineteen seventy six, he
Speaker 4: finds out about Dad in the hospital. Tell us a
Speaker 4: little bit about this sort of he puts it all
Speaker 4: that is very important, and it happened around the same time.
Speaker 6: Yeah, he's about fifteen years old, as I remember, and
Speaker 6: dad and mom are going to get a divorce and
Speaker 6: they tell him and he's really angry about it because
Speaker 6: his birthday and Dad attempts suicide, is in the hospital,
Speaker 6: and he's angry and he says, well, they're really screwed
Speaker 6: up my birthday. And dad couldn't even kill himself, right,
Speaker 6: And so yeah, he has a lot of bitterness. And
Speaker 6: if that, he seemed to have been a guy who
Speaker 6: never really did have any compassion. If there was ever
Speaker 6: a person who fit the true meaning of psychopaths from
Speaker 6: a child on as West Dodd, and that was the
Speaker 6: difference between Wes and Art, because Art kept feeding Gilly
Speaker 6: and he would put it out of his mind and
Speaker 6: go on doing it, but we never felt guilty. But
Speaker 6: he kept getting caught. He would spend some time in jail,
Speaker 6: and so he decided, then the only way he is
Speaker 6: going to be able to keep doing it is to
Speaker 6: kill a kid. And so he's working at a construction
Speaker 6: site and the little kid is there, and he's going
Speaker 6: to take this kid out and kill him, but some
Speaker 6: workers come and see him, and West takes off and
Speaker 6: pick him up and question him. But a very fascinating
Speaker 6: thing in all of this is Wes has this big
Speaker 6: collection of pornography and he's only interested in kids. And
Speaker 6: he's living with a friend who has a girlfriend there
Speaker 6: and the mother. Oh, he's living with the mother and
Speaker 6: the daughter comes and so Wes is with this daughter, Pauline,
Speaker 6: and she comes in. It's there long as she says, West,
Speaker 6: do you mind.
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Speaker 3: I'm not eating you.
Speaker 6: I lay on a sleep bag in your room and
Speaker 6: he says, yeah, sure, and she comes and climbs in
Speaker 6: bed with him, and this is first experience with sex
Speaker 6: and she's kind to him. Next day when he goes
Speaker 6: to work, she walks him out of the car and
Speaker 6: she kisses him and to him, it's absolutely wonderful because
Speaker 6: they get talking about having a relationship and he says,
Speaker 6: he says, wow, now I can be a family man.
Speaker 6: And so he actually gets rid of his pornorgraphy. But
Speaker 6: then she disappears, and she's gone for about a year
Speaker 6: and then she comes back and she has a little boy,
Speaker 6: and she tells him, in the process of all of
Speaker 6: this a little bit more of bid. She tells him
Speaker 6: that this is his child, and he is a static.
Speaker 6: He thinks, wow, I now can be a father, and
Speaker 6: I can have a child, and I can have a wife,
Speaker 6: and we can have a family and all of this.
Speaker 6: And that's when she said, this is wonderful. We're going
Speaker 6: to do this, but we need to move down to
Speaker 6: Yakima because I've got friends down there. And the girl's
Speaker 6: mother was with him. So one night they just Wes
Speaker 6: quits a job and they go down the Yakama stay
Speaker 6: in a hotel and the funds run out. His funds
Speaker 6: after about a week, and at that point then the
Speaker 6: girl and the mother go out one night, West stays
Speaker 6: back takes care of the kids. They're all dressed up,
Speaker 6: and he figures, well, maybe they're prostitute to something, but
Speaker 6: that's okay because we need the money. The next morning,
Speaker 6: the girl's boyfriend, prior boyfriend comes and says, I'm taking
Speaker 6: the kids. You'll never see your son again, and he
Speaker 6: is devastated. So the kids are gone, Colleen's gone, and
Speaker 6: West calls his dad and says, Dad, I want to
Speaker 6: come home. His dad says, okay, come on, and so
Speaker 6: he has enough money to buy well. He sells some
Speaker 6: tools and buys enough gas to get home and his mother,
Speaker 6: his father and stepmother now are going to go on
Speaker 6: vacation for a week and process. You know, he's tried
Speaker 6: Satanism before and it didn't do anything, and so at
Speaker 6: this time he's thinking of it again. And so oh,
Speaker 6: he says, Satan, if I killed kids and I dedicate
Speaker 6: their souls to you, will you give me some kids
Speaker 6: to kill. And in the process of all before he
Speaker 6: gets up to his parents, he picks up this hitchhiker,
Speaker 6: and this hit shiker starts talking about child pornography and such,
Speaker 6: and He's thinking, Wow, this must be a sign from
Speaker 6: the devil. He's gonna let me do this, and so
Speaker 6: he decides, okay. He writes out about a multipage contract
Speaker 6: that Satan and signs it in his blood, and then
Speaker 6: he starts planning on killing kids. And in Labor Day
Speaker 6: nineteen eighty nine is when he goes to Well. He
Speaker 6: goes to park a few days before and he scouts
Speaker 6: it out and he makes maps of it. But his
Speaker 6: objective is just to see if he can kill a kid,
Speaker 6: because he's thinking if he can, then he'll have sex slaves.
Speaker 6: He'll kidnap kids. And he can't find the ones he
Speaker 6: wants because they're with someone with their parents, with too
Speaker 6: many kids, they're too old. And then these two boys
Speaker 6: come and in their boys, and so he used this technique,
Speaker 6: Hey come with me. Generally it's one of them. Let
Speaker 6: me show you some baby birds. But I can only
Speaker 6: take you one at a time because it might scare him.
Speaker 6: This time he says, okay, kids, come with me. I
Speaker 6: want you to do something. So he goes up to
Speaker 6: this other path. He gets them off the side. He
Speaker 6: kills the kids, and it bothers him because he blacks
Speaker 6: out and he can't remember such thing as he did.
Speaker 6: And so, but then within within a month he kidnaps
Speaker 6: a boy. Now Wes, like Ard, had a couple of
Speaker 6: kids he fell in love with, and Wes has a kid.
Speaker 6: He fell a couple of kids he fell in love with,
Speaker 6: and so he's extremely lonely, and he kidnaps the boy
Speaker 6: and he takes him to his place. He molests the boy,
Speaker 6: and then they go to a store and buy some things,
Speaker 6: and they go to McDonald's and buy some food, and
Speaker 6: the boy is playing on the playground equipment, and West
Speaker 6: is talking to the kid's father and feeling very much
Speaker 6: like a father, and takes a boy back to the apartment.
Speaker 6: And when it's coming morning, he knows he can't just
Speaker 6: leave the kid because the landlady might come. So he
Speaker 6: decides he's going to kill a kid, and he does
Speaker 6: and and comes back the afternoon and he takes care
Speaker 6: of the body. But then within a month he tries
Speaker 6: to kidnap another kid out of the show house and
Speaker 6: the kid gets away. And then then about a week
Speaker 6: he tries it in another show house and the kid
Speaker 6: gets away, and so he gets climbs in his vehicle.
Speaker 6: He's driving off. He gets out several blocks and the
Speaker 6: vehicle breaks down. I don't know if there's a truck
Speaker 6: or a carpet that breaks down on the side of
Speaker 6: the road.
Speaker 4: Please come along.
Speaker 6: They know him from prior arrests and problems with kids
Speaker 6: and so, and they have a description, and so they're
Speaker 6: interrogating him regarding trying to kidnap these kids. And after
Speaker 6: a couple hours. You know his story is one of
Speaker 6: the cops said to him, one of the detectives, West,
Speaker 6: what would you do if you were us? And he said,
Speaker 6: I'll go search my apartment. And there's whoops, because he's
Speaker 6: got the details in his diary journal of having killed
Speaker 6: the two boys, having killed all three. He's got pictures
Speaker 6: of this last one and his body and such, and
Speaker 6: so Wes thinks, Okay, I've done it now, and he
Speaker 6: confesses and then he ends up in prison on death row,
Speaker 6: and he wanted to die young. When I saw him
Speaker 6: on TV in an interview and wrote to him and says,
Speaker 6: would you be willing to tell me your story? He
Speaker 6: says yeah, and he wrote me up from that point,
Speaker 6: which is about September eighty eight. He wrote me out
Speaker 6: about two hundred pages of his biography his life, describing
Speaker 6: every detail of everything, and send it to me, and
Speaker 6: he said. At one time, he says, the court has
Speaker 6: approved my early execution, so I don't have long to
Speaker 6: do this. So we're gonna have to hurry so we
Speaker 6: can get it done, because I want I want people
Speaker 6: to understand and to help it so that other kids
Speaker 6: won't be kidnapped or killed. You know, and so I
Speaker 6: saw him up until December ninety one. Yeah, okay, that's wrong,
Speaker 6: on the first date December, and in a couple of
Speaker 6: weeks after that, by three weeks he was killed. And
Speaker 6: he was killed by hanging. And he when I said,
Speaker 6: but lethal injection is a better, more humane way to die,
Speaker 6: and he says, I don't want to. I want to
Speaker 6: die by hanging, because this last boy, in order for
Speaker 6: my landlady not the same, I put strapped around him
Speaker 6: and hung him up on hooks in the closet. And
Speaker 6: he says, I don't deserve to die any better than
Speaker 6: how he did. And so he was hung.
Speaker 4: You write about and you include a he wrote a
Speaker 4: pamphul in in prison when you meet a stranger or
Speaker 4: other bad people. Just briefly, what's the gist of that
Speaker 4: and what was his purpose of that?
Speaker 6: With this, well, I think I think there's a couple purposes.
Speaker 6: What he said he was doing. He says, I want
Speaker 6: people to understand, and in essence, what he's saying there is, hey,
Speaker 6: if a stranger approaches you, run, don't talk to him.
Speaker 6: If someone tries to do something touch you wrong, tell
Speaker 6: your parents, tell the police, tell someone. And so On
Speaker 6: one hand, he's saying, I want to write this and
Speaker 6: even sketches out some pictures in it. I want to
Speaker 6: write this so that it can help protect kids. And
Speaker 6: I remember one time when we were talking about the
Speaker 6: hair after when I was interviewing him, he is talking
Speaker 6: about God, and he just got tears in his eyes,
Speaker 6: you know, and someone reported after that the past he
Speaker 6: believes in God and he asks for forgiveness. So you know,
Speaker 6: we do get that killed at the end. Maybe just
Speaker 6: a fear, but I think so one thing is that
Speaker 6: I want to protect kids, is what you're saying. But
Speaker 6: the other thing he seems to be saying, if he
Speaker 6: writes this and gets it out, people won't think he's
Speaker 6: such a bad guy. They'll think there's something good about him.
Speaker 6: So there's something genuine and something fulmy about it.
Speaker 4: What's interesting, too, is that in both these cases, what
Speaker 4: he's saying, what Dodd says, is that you should do this,
Speaker 4: and you should this. Victims should do this. Run away
Speaker 4: somebody tries to touch you, because if anyone would have
Speaker 4: heated that in both of these killers cases, that would
Speaker 4: have helped them immensely. The people of the time, and
Speaker 4: people still do suffer from naivety and a real innocent
Speaker 4: time or a less innocent time.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, if when Wes Dodd exhibited himself from the second
Speaker 6: story window, if the first time, some of the kids
Speaker 6: had to run off and got the police, got their
Speaker 6: parents and had come back, and if the police had
Speaker 6: questioned West, they had to take him down the station
Speaker 6: and says, okay, what's happening. You were You're the only
Speaker 6: one who could have done this because you're the only
Speaker 6: one who was home time, and so forth and so forth. No,
Speaker 6: because West kept getting away with stuff. There was a
Speaker 6: time he was on probation and he's in therapy and
Speaker 6: he can't be with kids, he can't have kids in
Speaker 6: the home, and yet he's got this child in the
Speaker 6: home that he's molesting. And when the probation officer comes
Speaker 6: to check on him unexpected, it just happens that the
Speaker 6: mother of the child took the boy, either that day
Speaker 6: before or that morning and took him. So when probation
Speaker 6: officer came, there's no kid in the house, you know.
Speaker 6: But he just kept getting away. And one of the
Speaker 6: big things Wes, and you see this with sex offenders often,
Speaker 6: especially child molesters, personally when they confessed, may confess, Okay,
Speaker 6: I did this and this and this and this, and
Speaker 6: I want help. But what Wes bloated about? And I
Speaker 6: didn't tell him about the other kids I'm molested, you know.
Speaker 6: And he seemed so sincere, so cooperative, that the judge
Speaker 6: and everyone else thought, Okay, this really is a good kid.
Speaker 6: He's a good kid who just has a sexual problem,
Speaker 6: and we can get him some therapy and that will help,
Speaker 6: and then we haven't damaged his life, and we've kept
Speaker 6: society safe. But in reality, if they come away from
Speaker 6: the interview thinking the person speak and asking me about
Speaker 6: it is only has half the information. Wow, look how
Speaker 6: wonderful that I got away with the other half.
Speaker 4: I got to say, doctor Carlyle too, that the difference.
Speaker 4: I think I know somewhat of Wesley Allen Dodd, read
Speaker 4: a book and some of the things that he's said,
Speaker 4: but I didn't know anything about Arthur Gary Bishop. But
Speaker 4: I would say, in comparing both of them, maybe you
Speaker 4: can give me a take on this. You say that
Speaker 4: the idea that somebody would want to be executed is rare.
Speaker 4: Somebody would want to find out why they did something.
Speaker 4: And you say that in the one case with Bishop
Speaker 4: that these people were guards, experienced guards. Thought, man, we've
Speaker 4: never seen anybody this remorseful, this remorseful between the difference
Speaker 4: between Bishop and God. What I thought was interesting too,
Speaker 4: is when he talks about when Dodd talks about packed
Speaker 4: with Satan, pardon me, there seems to be a much
Speaker 4: different sort of mindset in the end. There seems, like
Speaker 4: you say, there seems to be some ulterior motive for
Speaker 4: him to show remorse rather than Bishop seems to be
Speaker 4: again not giving him too much credit at all, there
Speaker 4: seems to be much more genuine remorse is there. Did
Speaker 4: you note a difference between these two people inherently in
Speaker 4: that regard, Yeah, very much so.
Speaker 6: I think with both of them. One of the reasons
Speaker 6: for wanting to be executed early rather than putting in
Speaker 6: appeals over and over and over and again for ten
Speaker 6: twelve years before they finally get executed is their life
Speaker 6: is the kids. That's all they got. So when they
Speaker 6: get in prisoned, they don't have kids anymore, and so
Speaker 6: they're lonely, they're depressed, they're hated by everyone. They're if
Speaker 6: they're not on death row, they're on protection, and to
Speaker 6: them it's like, Okay, why keep living when the very
Speaker 6: thing that is my entire life is gone? But with
Speaker 6: Bishop I think he felt more guilt. And when he
Speaker 6: was in prison, he would put earphones on and to
Speaker 6: whatever he could share, and there's a religious station and
Speaker 6: listen to that. And he asked me for some religious
Speaker 6: music and I gave him some of that. And the
Speaker 6: night he was executed, he had the Bible into scripture
Speaker 6: right there, and as we talked in the evening, knowing
Speaker 6: that in an hour or so he's going to be executed,
Speaker 6: he's going to die, he wanted to talk about his mission,
Speaker 6: and he wanted to talk about God, and he knew
Speaker 6: that he was not going to be forgiven of that totally.
Speaker 6: He just knows. He says, I can't get what I
Speaker 6: could have got in the hereafter because of what I've done.
Speaker 6: And he says the thing that bothers me most is
Speaker 6: having to face those kids and thereafter. Whereas with Wes
Speaker 6: Dodds had a lady and she had a son who
Speaker 6: established a relationship and would come out and seem and
Speaker 6: I think it was in prison a couple of years
Speaker 6: before I got executed, and the boy liked West so
Speaker 6: much She wrote a letter to the President of the
Speaker 6: United States that please don't kill my father, you know, stepfather.
Speaker 6: Please I need him. But I don't think that God
Speaker 6: ever felt that guilty about what he did. He never
Speaker 6: talked about Satan again to me. It was just a
Speaker 6: thing that came up, and is life. I'm so desperate
Speaker 6: to have kids, I'll do anything, and if Satan is
Speaker 6: a possibility, I'll try that. Even though it's the second
Speaker 6: time he tried it, it seemed to work this time.
Speaker 6: But it's not like he worshiped Satan after that. He
Speaker 6: didn't known you about Satan or out any of.
Speaker 4: That you do talk. I was just going to ask
Speaker 4: you something very very interesting. I wanted to ask you
Speaker 4: about this because this is disturbing and incredible you talk
Speaker 4: about that. He prayed, not expecting to have any guidance
Speaker 4: or help from Satan, but he figured he might as well.
Speaker 4: And he figured if he was going to pray, he
Speaker 4: might as well pray on the Holy Day, on the
Speaker 4: Christian Holy Day, which would be a Sunday, and he
Speaker 4: prayed to be able to kill three children. How many
Speaker 4: children did he kill?
Speaker 6: Okay, the way that came up, he was playing a
Speaker 6: game and in this game, and it seemed like a solitaire,
Speaker 6: but he's playing it and he says, Satan, I want
Speaker 6: you to tell me how many kids you'll give me.
Speaker 6: That's where he came up with the three. And then
Speaker 6: on the Holy Day, that's when he did the contract.
Speaker 6: He'd signed it his blood and all of that, and
Speaker 6: he thought, this is good because it's supposed to be
Speaker 6: God's day and I'm worshiping Satan. No, so that's how
Speaker 6: he came up with the number three. And he did
Speaker 6: kill the three kids. And he said, as I was
Speaker 6: talking to him, he figured then that Satan had actually
Speaker 6: given him what he asked for. And he never seemed
Speaker 6: to believe that the souls of the kids went to Satan. No,
Speaker 6: he didn't really know anything about Satanism or about the
Speaker 6: ceremonies or any of that. It was just, jeez, this
Speaker 6: is working, but very disturbing.
Speaker 4: Now in comparison and comparing both of these and you've
Speaker 4: studied more than these serial killers, what do you think
Speaker 4: is a common thing? And we talked about humiliation at
Speaker 4: a young age and not being traumatic. Tell us the
Speaker 4: similarities in some regards, and I use that example where
Speaker 4: you saw similarities between these two very very prolific and
Speaker 4: profound child killers.
Speaker 6: What's similar between them and also with serial killers, And
Speaker 6: a lot of people are very they're lonely when they're young,
Speaker 6: they don't fit in. They they start fantasizing, and there's
Speaker 6: a difference between fantasy and daydreaming. Fantasy is deeper. And
Speaker 6: when these guys get fantasized. You know, Art Bishop, when
Speaker 6: the police searched his apartment four hundred pictures of naked kids,
Speaker 6: and most of the pictures were just of the genitals,
Speaker 6: you know, and I said, aren't Why Why did you
Speaker 6: have to have four hundred pictures? And a lot of
Speaker 6: it was just getting the kid to decide they'd be
Speaker 6: willing to have the picture taken. So a lot of
Speaker 6: it was just the interaction with the kid itself. But
Speaker 6: they're only they start getting sexually turned on, and then
Speaker 6: they don't they it's a secret, they can hide it,
Speaker 6: they don't have to give it up, and they get
Speaker 6: into all of the masturbation with it, and then that
Speaker 6: starts really connecting them with this, and by the time
Speaker 6: they're fifteen, they're into it to such a point that
Speaker 6: it's going to be hard for them to get out
Speaker 6: of it, and so we archbishop both had that. With
Speaker 6: our Bishop he wanted to change it. With Wes Dodd
Speaker 6: he didn't. West Dodd was how unhappy with it to
Speaker 6: go ahead?
Speaker 4: Sorry? How important was the fear once they realized they
Speaker 4: were arrested in that fear of imprisonment and further arrest,
Speaker 4: How important was that in their decision to kill.
Speaker 6: Well, with Wes going to jail multiple times and he
Speaker 6: would be given a longer sentence, but just to spend
Speaker 6: a very short time in there. Now it's different. Now,
Speaker 6: it's quite different now the laws have changed. But with Wes,
Speaker 6: that was why he killed because he didn't want to
Speaker 6: stop molesting and in essence he wanted a family. There's
Speaker 6: a family of kids who would worship him. With art Bishop,
Speaker 6: he didn't want to kill kids. He had no desire
Speaker 6: to ever do that. And with Alonzo when he had
Speaker 6: him in his place and he felt he had to
Speaker 6: kill a kid otherwise Alonzo's going to go screaming to
Speaker 6: his mother, He'll be arrested and he'll go to prison.
Speaker 6: And after that he couldn't find a good reason not to.
Speaker 6: He thought, I can only go to hell once and
Speaker 6: to kill more kids is not going to matter. But
Speaker 6: then it gradually got to him and he fell apart
Speaker 6: more and more and more, until he literally set himself
Speaker 6: up at the end to get killed. But so with
Speaker 6: our bishop, the first one was more of an accident
Speaker 6: than anything. And with DoD he planned it. In fact,
Speaker 6: he would try to desensitize to the thought of killing
Speaker 6: your kid to see if you could do it.
Speaker 4: Now, this project, these interviews and this book, how long
Speaker 4: did it take you to put this together? And this
Speaker 4: is an incredible result. This research just tell us when
Speaker 4: this was done and how long this took you to
Speaker 4: put this mind of the devil together?
Speaker 6: The after writing didn't take long. Collecting the information didn't
Speaker 6: take long because the only reason I wrote it is
Speaker 6: because I had the information and I hadn't seen another
Speaker 6: book in print that talked about the psychology step by
Speaker 6: step of how a person becomes a child killer. I thought,
Speaker 6: I've got this information. I really don't want to write
Speaker 6: a book on it, because who's going to read it.
Speaker 6: Who's going to read about so many months that killed kids?
Speaker 6: And so I just sat on it for the longest time.
Speaker 6: And after I got the first Ted Bundy book done,
Speaker 6: I thought I've got this information, I might as well
Speaker 6: write it and if any police departments or universities or
Speaker 6: anyone wants to understand, at least it's in print. And
Speaker 6: so it probably took six months to a year the
Speaker 6: most to actually write that.
Speaker 4: Well, I want to congratulate you on an incredible piece
Speaker 4: of work and a great read, a fantastic read, The
Speaker 4: Mind of a Devil, The Case of Arthur Gary Bishop
Speaker 4: and Wesley Alan Dodd. Doctor al Carlyle, I want to
Speaker 4: thank you very much, doctor Carlyle. Do you have a
Speaker 4: Facebook page or you do the have a website meet
Speaker 4: people might want to look at other work.
Speaker 6: Yeah, they just go to al dot Carlisle on Facebook
Speaker 6: and they'll pull me up, or violent mind and they'll
Speaker 6: pull me up. Yeah. And anyone who wants to contact
Speaker 6: me and ask me any questions, I've got my email
Speaker 6: on there and they're free to call or write or whatever,
Speaker 6: and I'll be happy to talk to anybody about this.
Speaker 4: Absolutely. Thank you very much, doctor Carlyle. It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 4: Hope to talk to you again real soon.
Speaker 6: Have a great No, thank you very much, thank you
Speaker 4: Thank you, good night, good night,