WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.439 Hello, it is Ryan, and we could all use an 2 00:00:02.439 --> 00:00:04.759 extra bright spot in our day, couldn't we just to 3 00:00:04.799 --> 00:00:07.679 make up for things like sitting in traffic, doing the dishes, 4 00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:10.400 counting or steps, you know, all the mundane stuff. That 5 00:00:10.519 --> 00:00:12.919 is why I'm such a big fan of Chumba Casino. 6 00:00:13.080 --> 00:00:16.399 Chumpbuck Casino has all your favorite social casino style games 7 00:00:16.559 --> 00:00:20.559 you can play for free anytime anywhere with daily bonuses. 8 00:00:20.719 --> 00:00:23.079 That's your brighten your day low actually a lot, so 9 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:26.519 sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com. That's Chumbuck 10 00:00:26.559 --> 00:00:29.960 Casino dot com. Nope, necessary daidherehabit I lost terms conditions 11 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:30.399 eighteen plus. 12 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:33.560 With the Lucky land Slots, you can get lucky just 13 00:00:33.640 --> 00:00:34.560 about anywhere. 14 00:00:35.359 --> 00:00:38.240 It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the 15 00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:40.200 weather's five. But we're just gonna circle up here a 16 00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:43.479 while and get lucky. Oh no, nothing like that. It's 17 00:00:43.560 --> 00:00:46.159 just these cash prizes add up quick. So I suggest 18 00:00:46.200 --> 00:00:48.200 you sit back, keep your trade table up right, and 19 00:00:48.439 --> 00:00:49.320 start getting lucky. 20 00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:53.000 Play for free at Lucky Landslots dot com. Are you 21 00:00:53.119 --> 00:00:56.759 feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void, We're prohibited by Law 22 00:00:56.880 --> 00:01:01.200 eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website Ford tas Hell. 23 00:01:02.240 --> 00:01:04.319 Hello, it is Ryan and I was on a flight 24 00:01:04.359 --> 00:01:06.560 the other day playing one of my favorite social spin 25 00:01:06.640 --> 00:01:09.200 slot games on chumbacasino dot com. I looked over at 26 00:01:09.200 --> 00:01:11.000 the person sitting next to me, and you know what 27 00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:13.799 they were doing. They were also playing Chumba Casino. Coincidence, 28 00:01:13.920 --> 00:01:16.319 I think not everybody's loving having fun with it. Chumpa 29 00:01:16.319 --> 00:01:18.719 Casino's home to hundreds at casino style games. You can 30 00:01:18.760 --> 00:01:22.560 play for free anytime, anywhere, even at thirty thousand feet. 31 00:01:22.719 --> 00:01:25.000 So sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com to 32 00:01:25.000 --> 00:01:28.239 claim you're free. Welcome bonus, that's Chumbuck Casino dot com 33 00:01:28.319 --> 00:01:31.000 and live the chumber line. No, we're necessary dvoid where 34 00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:32.319 every I lost in terms of conditions of eating. 35 00:01:32.319 --> 00:01:33.159 Plus with the. 36 00:01:33.200 --> 00:01:36.599 Lucky Land Slots, you can get lucky just about anywhere. 37 00:01:37.480 --> 00:01:40.359 It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the 38 00:01:40.359 --> 00:01:42.319 weather's fine, but we're just gonna circle up here a 39 00:01:42.319 --> 00:01:45.599 while and get lucky. No, no, nothing like that. It's 40 00:01:45.640 --> 00:01:48.239 just these cash prizes add up quick, So I suggest 41 00:01:48.280 --> 00:01:50.280 you sit back, keep your trade table up right, and 42 00:01:50.560 --> 00:01:51.400 start getting lucky. 43 00:01:52.280 --> 00:01:55.159 Play for free at Lucky Landslots dot com are you 44 00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:58.879 feeling lucky. No purchase necessary void We're prohibited by Law 45 00:01:58.959 --> 00:02:02.400 eighteen plus terms and conditions applying any website for detail. 46 00:02:12.759 --> 00:02:16.199 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 47 00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:19.319 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 48 00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:26.680 written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK every 49 00:02:26.719 --> 00:02:30.360 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 50 00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:35.000 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 51 00:02:35.400 --> 00:02:38.560 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 52 00:02:47.639 --> 00:02:51.800 Good evening. He could not stop what he was doing. 53 00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:56.840 It was either sex or suicide. It's often said that 54 00:02:56.960 --> 00:03:00.319 we will likely never understand how a person becomes a 55 00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:05.120 serial killer. However, I believe we can. In fact, we 56 00:03:05.240 --> 00:03:07.400 must if we are ever going to find a way 57 00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:10.800 to stop the sexual abuse of children. But it's not 58 00:03:10.840 --> 00:03:13.800 only the victims we want to save. We also want 59 00:03:13.800 --> 00:03:19.319 to stop our children from transforming themselves into killers. Arthur 60 00:03:19.400 --> 00:03:23.639 Gary Bishop and Wesley Allan Dodd had many things in common. 61 00:03:24.759 --> 00:03:29.240 They were both psychopathic pedophiles and prolific child molesters who 62 00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:33.680 eventually turned to killing their victims. Both were executed for 63 00:03:33.719 --> 00:03:38.639 their crimes at their own request. Most importantly, both desperately 64 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:42.520 wanted to know one thing before they died, how did 65 00:03:42.520 --> 00:03:46.840 I become a serial killer? This book is an attempt 66 00:03:47.000 --> 00:03:49.719 to answer that question. The book they were featuring this 67 00:03:49.800 --> 00:03:53.039 evening is the Mind of a Devil, The Case of 68 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:57.680 Arthur Gary Bishop and Wesley Allan Dodd, with my special guests, 69 00:03:58.240 --> 00:04:03.120 Doctor Al Carlyle. Welcome back to the program, and thank 70 00:04:03.159 --> 00:04:12.520 you very much for this interview, Doctor Al Carlisle. Hi, Dan, Yes, 71 00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:14.520 good evening, Doctor, welcome to the program. 72 00:04:14.639 --> 00:04:17.399 Okay, yes, thank you. I'm glad I got you. 73 00:04:18.879 --> 00:04:23.319 Yes, thank you very much. Let's get right into this. 74 00:04:23.439 --> 00:04:25.519 We've got a lot to cover and this is a 75 00:04:25.560 --> 00:04:30.199 fantastic book. The audience is going to love this. I 76 00:04:30.279 --> 00:04:35.199 extremely enjoyed your book about Bundy, and this is in 77 00:04:35.319 --> 00:04:39.560 the same vein incredible, incredible access that you had. You 78 00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:43.120 were employed at the Utah State Prison engaging in research 79 00:04:43.240 --> 00:04:47.160 on violent inmates, and the projects initially began when you 80 00:04:47.759 --> 00:04:51.319 completed a psychological assessment on Ted Bundy for the courts. 81 00:04:52.079 --> 00:04:54.279 Now you say in your book you didn't want to 82 00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:59.120 speak with convicted child killer Arthur Gary Bishop while you 83 00:04:59.160 --> 00:05:02.560 read this maximum facility of the Utah State Prison Death 84 00:05:02.639 --> 00:05:07.800 Row tell Us how you came to change your mind 85 00:05:07.879 --> 00:05:09.920 and why. 86 00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:16.000 Okay, yeah, my whole career was in the prison. He 87 00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:21.839 did various things in therapy and research and a lot 88 00:05:21.879 --> 00:05:27.759 of evaluations, and I worked primarily with violent people. And 89 00:05:28.680 --> 00:05:34.839 to talk to someone who's quiet violent, say a violent rapist, 90 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:37.519 is one thing, but to talk to to someone who's 91 00:05:37.560 --> 00:05:45.519 killed children is totally another. And when Archbishop was sentenced 92 00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:52.079 to be executed, he came out and was on death row, 93 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:54.120 and I went down and met with him and said, 94 00:05:54.800 --> 00:05:58.839 our doc from the psychology department and if there's anything 95 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:02.240 you want, let me know. And I anticipated they say, 96 00:06:02.480 --> 00:06:05.160 I don't need anything, thank you, And then I would 97 00:06:05.160 --> 00:06:09.480 have walked away and say, well, I did what I'm 98 00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:14.319 supposed to do and that's it. But he said two things. 99 00:06:15.319 --> 00:06:20.160 He says, first of all, he wanted to die for 100 00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:24.600 killing those kids, and he actually had to fire his 101 00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:31.360 current lawyer's attorneys because they said they couldn't represent him 102 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:35.000 to die early, and he had to hire a new 103 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:39.600 set of attorneys who would and then but he got 104 00:06:39.639 --> 00:06:45.680 that approved by the court. And the other thing he wanted, 105 00:06:45.759 --> 00:06:50.720 he said, I want to understand why I killed those kids. 106 00:06:50.759 --> 00:06:54.759 How did I get to that? Place in the first place, 107 00:06:56.000 --> 00:07:01.319 and so I thought, boy, that's that's a good piece 108 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:04.519 of research for all this stuff I'm doing on violence. 109 00:07:05.800 --> 00:07:10.680 And so that's we I met with him about two 110 00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:14.639 to three times a month until his execution. Then I 111 00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:17.600 was with him on the night he was executed. 112 00:07:19.519 --> 00:07:24.480 Yes, Now, in this research, you say that he sent 113 00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:30.000 you volumes of biographical data about him, biographical data about 114 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:35.600 his childhood. Now let's go back. I do, yes, as 115 00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:38.040 you do, you go back to his childhood. Let's go 116 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:40.680 to his childhood when you say he's born in nineteen 117 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:44.759 fifty two in Hinckley, Utah, because you really get it 118 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:48.720 from him, really what went on, because he, as we've 119 00:07:48.800 --> 00:07:51.600 just mentioned, he really wants to know how he became 120 00:07:52.079 --> 00:07:55.319 his person. So tell us about his early upbringing. What 121 00:07:55.399 --> 00:07:56.040 he had told you. 122 00:07:57.360 --> 00:08:01.800 Well, he came from an impact family. Both parents were 123 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:07.040 fairly religious. Hinkley is a small town, very small town, 124 00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:13.439 and his grandmother, grandparents, grandmother and father lived close by. 125 00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:20.560 And in a small town like that, you know everybody, 126 00:08:20.759 --> 00:08:26.759 you have friends, you have family. And he remembers he 127 00:08:26.920 --> 00:08:30.439 come home from being out doing something as a child, 128 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:35.879 and his mother would have hot rolls that had been 129 00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:39.440 set out on the window silled cool off and he 130 00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:41.399 could smell those and he came in and had a 131 00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:44.559 hot roll and honey and butter and you know all 132 00:08:44.600 --> 00:08:48.200 of that. So he was really fairly happy as a child. 133 00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:55.279 There was no no sexual abuse, no physical abuse. Now, 134 00:08:55.519 --> 00:09:07.080 so it started out fairly normal way. 135 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:08.679 You talk about did also, sorry, go ahead, But. 136 00:09:10.720 --> 00:09:15.600 And he was religious. He went to church and was 137 00:09:15.720 --> 00:09:22.200 quite active, and as he got into his teens he 138 00:09:23.240 --> 00:09:31.799 continued to get good raids. He he started to develop 139 00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:34.919 an interest, and it wasn't so much as sexual interest. 140 00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:40.039 There was more of a curiosity about boys, and he 141 00:09:40.120 --> 00:09:44.639 found himself something akin to being a little turned off 142 00:09:44.679 --> 00:09:48.039 when turned on when you would see boys. But he 143 00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:51.799 didn't have any strong desire at this point. You know, 144 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:56.639 the desire grew and it got very powerful over time. 145 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:01.919 But he got high. 146 00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:07.440 Talk about school, go ahead, go ahead. Uh. 147 00:10:08.360 --> 00:10:12.000 He got good grades from school. He was an eagle scout, 148 00:10:15.039 --> 00:10:23.320 and he was respected by people. Now we find he 149 00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:30.559 did have somewhat of a temper, but the cause of 150 00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:34.919 that it is basically unknown. It's just like a lot 151 00:10:34.919 --> 00:10:44.679 of kids who get angry. So but basically he was 152 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:47.480 a fairly normal kid. 153 00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:50.639 You talk about The religion though, that he did get 154 00:10:50.679 --> 00:10:53.879 involved with was the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter 155 00:10:53.960 --> 00:10:57.919 day Saints. And we'll talk about later about a mission 156 00:10:57.960 --> 00:11:01.039 he goes through that's very, very importan in his development. 157 00:11:01.240 --> 00:11:05.799 Will say, now you say that he also what I 158 00:11:05.840 --> 00:11:09.200 mentioned religion is that because he had said to you 159 00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:13.200 that there was a strong belief that you shouldn't have 160 00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:18.080 sex with a woman a girl before marriage, and this 161 00:11:18.279 --> 00:11:23.320 was a sin. So he did live in again comparative 162 00:11:23.720 --> 00:11:27.440 to maybe now, a fairly religious home, with those kinds 163 00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:30.399 of ideas open to him. 164 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:35.279 Yeah, but there was an interesting twist to all of that. 165 00:11:36.840 --> 00:11:42.480 He would hear religious people preach that it's moral to 166 00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:44.879 have sex before you get married and all of that, 167 00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:51.360 but nothing was said about it being wrong to have 168 00:11:51.480 --> 00:11:55.279 sex with the boy. Now, when he said that, my 169 00:11:55.399 --> 00:11:57.759 thought was, come on, all right, you got to be kidding. 170 00:11:57.960 --> 00:12:02.440 You're not that dumb. He insisted on that that for 171 00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:09.559 some reason he came out with that interpretation it's wrong 172 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:12.720 to have sex with a girl, but no one has 173 00:12:12.799 --> 00:12:16.559 said anything about a boy, and therefore maybe it's not 174 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:23.039 that wrong. And he held to that all the way through. 175 00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:26.960 And it's a weird pod that. 176 00:12:32.519 --> 00:12:35.639 He's a very intelligent young man too. We talk about 177 00:12:36.440 --> 00:12:40.720 he's very successful in school and business and in that department. 178 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:43.279 But you also talk about I found interesting too when 179 00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:45.519 you talk about the bad temper, but you say, well 180 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:47.919 he was, he grew up kind of normal. But when 181 00:12:47.960 --> 00:12:50.440 he did have as you mentioned, as you delved into 182 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:53.799 this and got the entire report from him, that he 183 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:58.360 mentions a couple incidents with you put them in about 184 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:02.559 a baby pigeons and his yeah, and he's talk about that. 185 00:13:02.600 --> 00:13:06.159 But then we talk about later that anger increasing. So 186 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:09.480 maybe to talk about this anger that he exhibits, and 187 00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:13.320 the story tells about the pigeons. 188 00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:18.960 He didn't have a general desire to hurt animals, but 189 00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:23.879 he saw the other kids with their b beguns shooting 190 00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:27.759 birds and other things, and so he at first he thought, okay, 191 00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:30.840 that's that's wrong. I don't want to do that. And 192 00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:38.279 but then he got angry at one time about something 193 00:13:38.440 --> 00:13:46.440 and he killed some pigeons and he felt bad about it. 194 00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:55.879 Now later on, later on, after his whole sexual habit had, 195 00:13:55.919 --> 00:14:01.000 Builton was extremely strong. He and he was living on 196 00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:06.120 his own in Salt Lake. He would get some puppies 197 00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:10.360 and he loved a little puppies, but he'd get mad 198 00:14:10.399 --> 00:14:13.440 at him if they had pittle on the floor, he 199 00:14:13.480 --> 00:14:17.039 would hit him, and some he choked him to death 200 00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:23.879 and then he would cry afterwards. And some he just 201 00:14:23.960 --> 00:14:30.120 beat to death and then he cried. Then he missed dog, 202 00:14:30.279 --> 00:14:34.159 so he'd go out get another one. But this was 203 00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:41.159 a time when he had totally violated his belief about 204 00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:45.440 who he should be, what he wanted to be in 205 00:14:45.519 --> 00:14:51.679 the future. And so, yeah, he was very cruel. Later on. 206 00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:58.000 You talk about this strong moral code that he believed 207 00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:01.120 to have, and then so you talk talk about him 208 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:03.919 believing that he should pray to God for help because 209 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:06.879 he kept talking about things being out of control. And 210 00:15:06.919 --> 00:15:09.799 this is earlier on. He even felt that things were 211 00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:11.080 out of his control. 212 00:15:14.919 --> 00:15:18.440 Yeah, he was religious and he would go to church 213 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:23.879 all the time, and you know, he became an Eagle Scout, 214 00:15:23.120 --> 00:15:27.720 and a lot of it was because his mother was 215 00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:32.240 quite religious and she was active in her church, and 216 00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:35.080 he always wanted to please his mother. It was very 217 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:46.639 important to him. He started developing this desire or to 218 00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:50.480 see what kids would look like when they were naked 219 00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:54.799 and that and then he cuts himself and say he 220 00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:58.039 doesn't want to do that. He shouldn't do that, that's 221 00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:03.320 not who he is and all of that. But so prayed, 222 00:16:03.399 --> 00:16:08.559 but nothing really changed. And of course we can't blame 223 00:16:08.600 --> 00:16:15.480 God for that. I don't believe, but nothing changed. But 224 00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:18.559 the thing he did not do. And you can sort 225 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:22.240 of understand this, he didn't ever tell anyone, Hey, I've 226 00:16:22.279 --> 00:16:26.399 got a problem. I've got a problem and I need help. 227 00:16:27.639 --> 00:16:32.879 And it's to me a very strong principle is the 228 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:42.399 person is controlled by the secret things that bother them. 229 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:47.480 Certainly, you talk about this challenge that he puts himself in. 230 00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:51.159 He is with the Latter day Saints and they go 231 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:53.360 on missions, and he's picked to go on a mission, 232 00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:55.639 and he goes to the Philippines. He's twenty one years old. 233 00:16:56.279 --> 00:17:00.080 This is nineteen seventy one, and he already has he 234 00:17:00.279 --> 00:17:02.840 urges and he wants he thinks his sex life is 235 00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:05.279 out of control and his urges out of control. Tell 236 00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:09.200 us about this trip and what is accomplished or not 237 00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:12.759 accomplished when he goes to the Philippines. What happens there? 238 00:17:13.880 --> 00:17:20.400 Okay, In the LDS religion, person if he wants to 239 00:17:21.319 --> 00:17:23.839 is asked to go for two years at their own expense. 240 00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:29.680 And they're sent somewhere to preach about the religion. And 241 00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:34.079 so the bishop approaches him and says, art, how'd you 242 00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:38.279 logic go on a mission? And he's thinking, yes, I 243 00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:41.359 want to because I will please my mom. And yes 244 00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:44.599 I want to because maybe then I can get control 245 00:17:44.839 --> 00:17:47.440 over these urges. It's starting to get out of hand 246 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:52.160 and find myself sexually attracted to boys and not girls. 247 00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:55.039 And so he was hoping that by going on a 248 00:17:55.079 --> 00:18:01.000 mission that God then would take away those urges and 249 00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:06.039 so you wouldn't have them anymore. So do you mean 250 00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:07.359 to see more about the mission? Now? 251 00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:12.359 Sure? What happens? I mean, yeah, okay, absolutely. 252 00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:16.200 So he goes to the Philippines and a missionary is 253 00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:20.119 with a companion and they go out and visit people together, 254 00:18:21.559 --> 00:18:26.599 and he's out there and he sees these naked boys 255 00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:29.960 and he's thinking, I'm not going to look at him. 256 00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:32.640 I'm going to control with the lucky landslops. 257 00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:35.119 You can get lucky just about anywhere. 258 00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:38.759 It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the 259 00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:40.640 weather's fine, but we're just going to circle up here 260 00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:43.759 a while and get lucky. No, no, nothing like that. 261 00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:46.240 It's just these cash prizes add up quick, So I 262 00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:48.599 suggest you sit back, keep your trade table up right, 263 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:50.119 and start getting lucky. 264 00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:53.519 Pay for free at lucky landslipes dot com. Are you 265 00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:57.279 feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void. We're prohibited by Law 266 00:18:57.400 --> 00:18:59.400 eighteen plus terms and conditions apply. 267 00:18:59.559 --> 00:19:03.640 Stown all this is not going to get out of hand. 268 00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:07.200 So he looks away, and he doesn't look at him, 269 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:10.440 and he's very proud of the fact that he is 270 00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:15.599 controlling it. Well, he's there about a year and he's 271 00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:21.599 feeling good, except he is beginning to feel lonely and 272 00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:25.480 he's beginning to feel bored. You know, the same thing 273 00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:27.640 over and go over again, which is going out and 274 00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:30.160 meet these people and converting them and so. 275 00:19:32.599 --> 00:19:32.720 On. 276 00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:37.920 This one day there's this little boy who is in 277 00:19:37.960 --> 00:19:41.839 the room and he's naked, and he's sitting on a pot, 278 00:19:42.200 --> 00:19:44.160 going the bathroom in the pot in that room with 279 00:19:44.279 --> 00:19:48.519 him in the front room, and he finds himself getting 280 00:19:48.519 --> 00:19:53.000 turned on, really turned on that it bothers him. And 281 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:59.359 then he goes and he's taking a shower that night, 282 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:06.319 and he finds himself climaxing in the shower and it's 283 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:10.160 not that he wanted to because he's trying not to that. 284 00:20:10.279 --> 00:20:14.440 He climaxes in the shower, and then you find that 285 00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:18.880 this is one of the major turns in his whole life, 286 00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:23.319 because at that point he's feeling very guilty, and he's thinking, 287 00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:29.799 although this is not the eldest belief, he's thinking that 288 00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:33.400 I repented and God forgave me, and I was doing 289 00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:36.720 well and I was feeding his spirit and everything was 290 00:20:36.759 --> 00:20:40.160 going fine. And now I do this, and therefore I 291 00:20:40.279 --> 00:20:45.960 have sinned, and God will be disappointed in me, and 292 00:20:46.079 --> 00:20:50.880 I won't have his spirit anymore, and therefore all the 293 00:20:50.920 --> 00:20:56.160 repentance I've done over the last year has been undone. 294 00:20:56.359 --> 00:21:03.960 And he gets very depressed it and now I don't know 295 00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:08.119 if it's the next day of riches. Very soon, he 296 00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:12.160 tells his companion, you go visit the people today. I'm 297 00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:14.599 not feeding well. I'm going to stay home. So the 298 00:21:14.759 --> 00:21:19.640 companion goes out and visits some families and he takes 299 00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:24.640 a bottle of bottle of pills, wail of ashfood, and 300 00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:31.079 he's laying there, laying there thinking, so this is what 301 00:21:31.160 --> 00:21:38.240 it's like to die. And he's feeding peace because he's 302 00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:41.480 thinking all of my struggles will be over. Pukes him 303 00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:46.319 all up and he's just very sick. And then he 304 00:21:47.079 --> 00:21:51.680 tells his mission president that he he's depressed. He wants 305 00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:56.400 to go home. Mission president calls him in and talks 306 00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:58.319 to him. And the thing he doesn't do, he doesn't 307 00:21:58.359 --> 00:22:02.920 tell the mission president anything about this sexual stuff. All 308 00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:06.720 he said is I'm depressed and I'm missing home and 309 00:22:07.079 --> 00:22:12.960 I like to go home. Well, the mission president talks 310 00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:16.200 to him and gives him a blessing, and when Art 311 00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:24.039 walks out of that, he feels energized. He's enthusiastic. He feels, Okay, 312 00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:26.599 I can do this, I can make it. It's going to 313 00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:32.279 be fine. And he is then made a supervisor over 314 00:22:32.359 --> 00:22:36.400 some other missionaries. But Art is not one who can 315 00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:40.319 really tell people what to do, you know, he's passive. 316 00:22:43.319 --> 00:22:45.599 And then that doesn't work out so well, so he 317 00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:48.119 goes to another place. But he makes it to his 318 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:52.279 second year and he comes home. And when he comes home, 319 00:22:52.359 --> 00:23:01.559 now a return missionary is highly respected the ward members 320 00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:05.160 and other people with family and cousins, and everyone looks 321 00:23:05.240 --> 00:23:10.519 up to this person and says, wow, here's the return missionary. Great, 322 00:23:10.599 --> 00:23:14.960 he's been out there serving God for two years at 323 00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:19.119 his own expense, in which the parents have generally who 324 00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:25.279 wants who pay for this? And so he comes back 325 00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:32.519 and he's still feeling very disappointed and he feels like 326 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:37.640 he doesn't want to be active. So he gets a 327 00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:42.640 job and the job is one where he works every 328 00:23:42.680 --> 00:23:45.279 other Sunday. He thinks, Okay, that's what I want to 329 00:23:45.319 --> 00:23:49.160 do out the brilliant plan, because that way I won't 330 00:23:49.160 --> 00:23:52.400 have to go to church. And one day he's in 331 00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:57.720 church and when the leaders come up to him and says, 332 00:23:57.839 --> 00:24:01.920 art in Sunday school, his teacher didn't show up. How 333 00:24:01.960 --> 00:24:04.839 the teacher can't come and teach this Sunday school class 334 00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:07.960 for kids are about fourteen fifteen years old? Could you 335 00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:11.640 take the class? And they're thinking, well, you know, return 336 00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:14.799 missionary can just step up and they've got lots to 337 00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:17.440 talk about and they can step into that place and 338 00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:22.160 do a great job. Well, he bombs it and he 339 00:24:22.200 --> 00:24:26.039 apologizes to the kids and he's thinking, you know, I 340 00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:32.119 can't do this anymore. And so he's feeding extremely ashamed, 341 00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:38.119 and so he gets him a motorcycle with the money 342 00:24:38.119 --> 00:24:42.759 he's making and drives around on it. And one day 343 00:24:42.759 --> 00:24:46.480 he picks up this kid and is giving him a 344 00:24:46.599 --> 00:24:52.559 ride and he sexually fondles the kid, and then he's 345 00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:55.440 really ashamed of himself and he tells the kid, please 346 00:24:55.480 --> 00:25:05.400 don't tell anyone that the kid is related to a 347 00:25:05.480 --> 00:25:10.319 lady who knows his Art's grandmother very well. And so 348 00:25:10.519 --> 00:25:12.640 in esthence you say, I've got to get out of here. 349 00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:17.920 I can't live this way. I'm not worthy of it. 350 00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:23.480 So he moves up Salt Lake and goes to school, 351 00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:29.039 gets his degree in accounting and does quite well in school, 352 00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:35.519 but he starts getting sexually involved. He's living with an 353 00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:41.079 aunt for a while and he's fondling some of her boys, 354 00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:46.839 and then he wants to move out because he thinks, okay, 355 00:25:46.920 --> 00:25:51.279 they're going to tell. And then we get through the 356 00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:57.440 whole next section of his life where he's sexually interested 357 00:25:57.640 --> 00:26:03.160 in kids, and he develop helps this technique. It's taking 358 00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:08.839 pictures of the genitals of boys, and he has no 359 00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:12.519 interest in girls. No, he would like to get married 360 00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:17.720 and have kids, but he doesn't want to date. He 361 00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:22.359 has no interest in girls. And what he's doing is technique, 362 00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:25.319 and he keeps using this over and over again for years. 363 00:26:26.839 --> 00:26:35.599 The technique is to tell a kid that someone is 364 00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:41.720 has something on him, and Art has to take pictures 365 00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:45.359 of the genitals, because the person who is doing this 366 00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:52.079 has a sexual desire for kids. So he says, look, 367 00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:56.440 let me just take a picture of your genitals and 368 00:26:57.160 --> 00:26:59.400 I'll send it this guy, and I'll give you fifty 369 00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:03.480 bucks for right. I won't take your picture of your face, 370 00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:09.920 just your generals. And and so the kids start saying, okay, 371 00:27:10.519 --> 00:27:13.960 you know, no face, no one can recognize me. Just 372 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:18.039 that takes a picture, give the kids fifty bucks. And 373 00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:22.160 he gets some kids doing that. But what's happening, the problem, 374 00:27:22.759 --> 00:27:29.680 sexual problem just gets worse and worse and worse. Then 375 00:27:29.720 --> 00:27:34.519 he he literally falls in love with a couple of 376 00:27:34.599 --> 00:27:40.559 young boys. It becomes very jealous, and this is a 377 00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:45.880 big part of him. And also Beefey Dodd who molested, 378 00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:52.400 killed three boys, blessed a lot of kids. But Art 379 00:27:54.440 --> 00:27:59.279 put six thousand dollars down on the home and he 380 00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:04.000 gets a nice bed, and he has this one boy 381 00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:08.359 who is willing to come over and just sleep with him, 382 00:28:08.519 --> 00:28:11.920 and all of this, and he's starting to get involved 383 00:28:12.039 --> 00:28:16.839 sexually involved with kids beyond just the picture taking, a 384 00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:20.680 lot of touching, a lot of just mutual masturbation and 385 00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:25.680 things like that. But he gets fearful of these kids 386 00:28:25.720 --> 00:28:28.319 are going to grow up and leave him. He is 387 00:28:28.359 --> 00:28:32.640 a very lonely kid at this time. He cut off 388 00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:37.559 his family and so they don't know just where he's at. 389 00:28:39.079 --> 00:28:42.200 He goes and talks to the bishop of his ward 390 00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:46.079 in Salt Lake and he tells the bishop he wants 391 00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:49.599 to be excommunicated from the church. And the bishop says why, 392 00:28:50.200 --> 00:28:53.359 and he says, because I've been immoral with a girl. 393 00:28:53.720 --> 00:28:57.359 I am being immoral with a girl, and I want 394 00:28:57.400 --> 00:28:58.960 to get excommunicated. 395 00:28:59.000 --> 00:28:59.079 Now. 396 00:28:59.079 --> 00:29:03.039 I ask him, what why you had such a strong 397 00:29:03.119 --> 00:29:08.039 belief in God before? Why now are you just cutting 398 00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:13.319 everything off, your family, your religion, your deity, all of this. 399 00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:19.079 And he said, I figured, if I'm a member of 400 00:29:19.160 --> 00:29:22.759 the church, God expects a lot more of me. But 401 00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:25.480