Speaker 1: We're all owned by the Syndicate, Body and Soul, or
should I just say buddy, Hello?
Speaker 2: Filthy movie Lovers, Something Weirdos and anti Criterion brose to
the twentieth episode of The sind Syndicate, the only podcast
that salutes the flag of Peggy Church and knows exactly
what to do at night to make it stop hurting.
My name is Gentry Austen, writer and researcher, and I'm
here with my co host, adult film historian Casey Scott,
and this week for the Big two O Pod, we
have with us a very special guest, the Bob Chin
expert Patrick Crane is going to join us for a
look at an unheralded masterpiece of early seventies softcorese exploitation,
director Mark Haggard's frank and messy look at the corruption
of one suburban California family by one very adventurous babysitter.
I'm talking nineteen seventy threes, adorably perverse. The all American girl.
Speaker 3: Me me, Debbie, the All American girl. Imagine that dear Diary.
School's out now, Johnny Goodman, that young creep across the hall.
There's absolutely nothing to liven up things around this building.
All he ever wants to do is stay inside and
read his books. If only he knew what he was missing.
But don't get me wrong, Diary, After all, I am
only sixteen and a good girl. Really. I promised Mom
a long time ago I would never go all the
way with the man until I'm married, and I intend
to keep that promise. But in the meanwhile, there's nothing
wrong with having a little, clean cut, all American fun like.
Speaker 4: All the other girls my age, just innocent little things
like getting all dressed up in a low cut dress
or going out to dinner with a handsome older man.
I can just imagine how it would be sitting across
the table from him in a private hotel suite dinner
for two, and me acting so mature and so sophisticated,
showing off my best table manners.
Speaker 5: It would be so much fun.
Speaker 2: So I have wanted to talk about this film pretty
much as soon as I finished watching it for the
first time a few months ago, I think it was,
and so we have wanted to get Patrick on here
to talk about it, because Patrick is the Bob Grain guy,
as Casey likes to say. So Patrick tell us a
little bit about yourself and your connection with Bob who
executive produced this film.
Speaker 6: Right, So, yeah, I got into this, this this avenue
of writing about sexploitation in hardcore films. I had done
some some work writing about Robert Altman and some Russ Meyer,
and I gradually moved over to writing about hardcore and
Bob Chen was a name that I sort of knew,
and I began writing about his movies. And then I
had begun writing about filmmakers and and and sort of
kind of doing complete reviews of their of their work.
And then i'd done stuff on Robert Altman and Russ Meyer.
To run Cult Movies magazine with Buddy Barnett and Mike
Copner kind of had this idea to take it online,
and at the time I was not I did not
have a day job, and I thought, well, yeah, this
might be something fun to do. And in doing that,
I was sort of getting material ready to put into
the magazine. And I realized that Bob Chen had written
for Cult Movies for a little bit and had a
connection to Mike Copner, and I reached out to Bob
to ask him if he'd like to do an interview
that I could put into a future issue. And during this,
during my question era in my questionnaire, and I'd said, Hey,
I'd really like to just do a full top to
bottom on your filmography like I had with you know,
again Robert Altman and Russ Meyer, and I was doing
with like Michael Mann and p. T. Anderson, and I
had future plans for others. And I was just inquiring
what movies of yours, you know, are lost or just
not findable, you know. And he came back and was
very very happy to help me and encourage me in
doing that, and gave me all kinds of leads and
allowed my wife and I to come and stay with
him and his wife and really sort of dive into
his filmography. I got, you know, basically everything there is
that can be found.
Speaker 2: What year was this, Patrick?
Speaker 6: Did you say this was a couple of years ago?
This was in two thousand and twenty three? Is when
I started this. I had written and I and he
was He and I were Facebook friends because you know,
Bob's name is very very important to me in that
Hot Saucy Pizza Girls was the first hardcore film I
ever watched front to back and really sort of was like, well,
this this is kind of a fun little comedy. This
is really you know, this was not what I had
expected from hardcore, you know, when what you thought of
as hardcore films and so so. And that was back
when I was like thirteen. I found a cousin of
mine had it on a tape, and I absconded from
their house with that tape. I got busted with that movie.
That was one of the first, you know, so I
got busted having that movie in my person or on
my person. And then when I was in high school,
The Wonderland Murders, I read that great expose and Rolling
Stone that Mike Sega wrote The devilin John Holmes, which
just really kind of fascinated me, and Bob Chen is
sort of you know, intermixed in that. And then when
Boogie Knights came out, the Criterion collection, Boogie Knights had
an extra which was mostly all of the interview stuff
from Exhausted, and in that you got to see the
Bob Chen interactions with John Holmes. And so, you know,
Bob was a name that I sort of just knew
and gravitated towards. And so the whole thing about me
reaching out to him to interview him was I I
also wanted to ask him a lot about Carlos to Tobolina,
who I was. That's who I'd sort of planned to
do a full top to bottom on. Bob said he
would help me, you know, do a full run on
his movies, and I wasn't going to turn that down
because I knew there was there was much more there
there than there was with Carlos Tobolina. And initially it
was just going to be the movies he shot on film,
but then it became everything, so oh boy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And with both of those guys, I feel like
their filmographies that you can find, you know, online is
far far from complete, would you agree.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Well, Carlos Tobolina because he owned everything that he
shot mostly after a certain point and with his own
equipment and kept almost everything. That's why I think Benniker
Sindrom was able to get so many of them in
such right condition because he owned them all. He has
about a dozen that you can't find that are sort
of lost. They're all mostly all softcore films. He's got
maybe a handful of arccore films. They're findable, they're not
in great condition. Bob's a whole other story Bob's got
Like Bob, I think there were fourteen movies that Bob
could recount that I couldn't that are just not out there.
Most of them are pre Johnny Watt. They're nineteen seventy
to seventy one, so you know, I mean, it would
be nice to have them, but there are enough representative
examples to know kind of what you're missing, but you know,
you want them as complete as possible. The other problem
with Bob Bob's movies is that the stuff that he
did in two thousand to two thousand and three through
New Era, those were very limited runs as were like
they were only pressed one thousand copies of each, so
on secondary markets they're very expensive if you can even
find them. There's not a lot of not any rips
out there that I could find. When I was doing this,
I had to borrow Bob's copies of those movies to
see them. So Bob it is. Bob is not one
where Yeah, a lot of like I would say, about
seventy five or seventy percent of his stuff is out
there probably something like that. A lot of it still
needs to be I mean, if it could be upgraded, for.
Speaker 2: Sure, Yeah, what's Bob doing right now.
Speaker 6: Just kicking back and living life, watching movies and and
I think he still works on his Johnny Watt books.
He wrote The Flesh of the Lotus one that actually
was published in twenty eleven, and he was currently working
on Blonde and Black Lace and adaptation of that. I
actually got to read the first I don't know, five
to seven chapters of that, and it was it's really good.
But still he's still working on it. It's not at
all like the movie. If you're familiar with Blonde in Blacklace,
it goes to Albuquerque, New Mexico. It's a whole different
kind of adventure. But he had planned or he was
planning on doing not just those two, but he was
also going to do the Tropic of Passion adaptation and
then the White Gold adaptation. All the John Holmes movies
he was planning to basically adapt into a novel form
because he's got an open publishing deal pretty much with
Settlement and Company, because they're planning on publishing his next
Johnny Watt books, and they are the ones that are
actually where I've been talking to Marco recently and we're
back on with the trop my book on the Bobchen movie,
so that's in the world hopefully.
Speaker 2: Well, that would be interesting if they ever upgrade. I
know they've been they've been upgrading some of bop stuff,
but you know, as they upgrade, they could tie in,
like if he has a completed novelization and somehow work
that into the release. That'd be fun. Watch it and
read it, and I'm going to make.
Speaker 5: You happy so you won't forget your now being back
every black up just do what I say.
Speaker 2: But let's talk about All American girl because someone want
to you maybe set the stage like sexploitation California, like
what's going on here? Because this movie is I think
if you watch it, you'll what immediately jumps out is
that this is very explicit without being hardcore, and it
seems like it's an intentional decision mm hmm by either
absolutely every decision.
Speaker 7: Yeah, everybody and everybody involved was not going to do
hardcore correct, Mark was not, Mark Haggard, Roland Miller and option,
We're not going to do hardcore on this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so I know Manny Condy is also involved
in distributeing this, but he came.
Speaker 7: We also never did hardcore, yeh. Mart Manuel Kandy never
did hardcore either, So basically all the major players were fighting.
I mean, this is not pre hardcore, this is parallel hardcore.
Hardcore was happening. Like Bob Johnny Wad was established as
a character, like Bob Jenna has been doing hardcore. Hot
Circuit had come out, the Mitchell Brothers had been putting
stuffing out, stuff out, Deep Throat had come out, Like yeah,
this is definitely we're in the thick of hardcore at
the beginning. But I think what this movie is really
what does what it really does successfully is what Dave
Friedman always says, Well, he didn't like hardcore, was he
liked the tees Yes, And this movie is so good
at tease that you think you're seeing more than you
actually are. And actually, I mean it's kind of like
text change on Mascar, where you think that movie is
much more violent than it is. This movie is graphic,
but it's not. It comes this close to crossing the line,
but it never does. And it's still I think the
most ironic softcore film of the nineteen seventies. I think
it outdoes Sarno.
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, we'll talk about that a little later. Yeah, So,
how did Bob get involved in this project, Like, whose
brainchild was?
Speaker 8: This?
Speaker 2: Was it Mars? Was it Bob's Mark?
Speaker 6: This was you know, this was Marx, but Bob was
As Casey said, they had stepped away from hardcore because
by nineteen the end of seventy one, it was really
really hard to shoot hardcore and not draw a bust,
and so Bob had decided to consciously decided to take
a step back and produce softcore films. And so this
was a company that he had with Roland Miller, and
they made they made three movies together. This was the
second one. The first one they did was The Love
Garden and that was also Mark Haggard and it had
much of the same crew. Duck Nap shot that one
as he shot this and then this one, and then
Brother and Sister was the third one. And I think
Brother and.
Speaker 7: Sister was a different company though, wasn't it. Well, these
Markland Productions, So is Mark and Roland Ryan Garden was
Markland too?
Speaker 6: No, yeah, because Roland Miller is the one that actually
directed Brother and Sister.
Speaker 7: I'm sorry, right, yeah, because that was Pantheon Productions. Yeah,
that was the first Pantheon Productions one, right, But that
was another one where they only did like three movies too, right,
Like these companies didn't last long, right.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Bob ran through a bunch of they went through
a bunch of different companies that just never really Yeah, yeah,
I did much more than three.
Speaker 2: So set the stage again for me. I understand Bob
had been shooting up in San Francisco hardcore? Is that
right around this time? No? Always always Los Angeles?
Speaker 6: Okay, he didn't shoot in San Francisco till seventy four.
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, thank you for the time and clarification there.
So he's now. Yeah, as you can see, this opens
on an LA High School, right, Fairfax High School. Yeah,
and we see our all American girl right away, Peggy Church.
I mean, Peggy Church is amazing in this, but she
is in very little else. I mean she's she's side
characters and other things. I wonder do we know, like
how she got involved in this? I wonder whose call
it was to give her such a starring role here.
Speaker 7: That's a good question, I think, Uh, well, at that point,
I mean, she had done Pickieper's Daughter, She's been in
the Big Snatch with which also has Tracy Hanfoos, who
is in this as well.
Speaker 2: I think I wonder if there was a recommendation from
her from Tracy Maybe, I don't know.
Speaker 7: I think, I know, I mean, I think I think
it really boils down to casting. I think al Gathu
how Gathu handled Barbara Mills and Linda Yorke, who were
in Love Garden's host But they just went back to
the well to Halkuthu and said, Okay, give me two women.
And Peggy Church was like the right person.
Speaker 6: For the job.
Speaker 2: Closer to sixteen for sure.
Speaker 7: Yeah, right, Which is interesting because in her other I mean,
she's older than she was in her earlier movies, yet
she doesn't look like she's She looks younger in this
than she does in like The Big Snatch, I think.
But yeah, she was very young when she started. She
was like, I think she was maybe seventeen when she
was in Big Snatch, I believe. I think I think
she started when she was not of age, but she
wasn't doing it. She never had a hardcore so it's
kind of.
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, well, I want to back up just
a sec to talk about Manny Condy again.
Speaker 6: Back to the.
Speaker 2: Production is you know, after this was produced, he picked
it up Is that how I understand it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, this was initially supposed to go to Continental Films
Mary Lindsey, but Manny Condy apparently just beg Bob for
a because he needed a pussy Cat theater booking and
Bob had sort of a carte blanche with any Bob
associated movie would get a puky pussy Cat booking. And
many Condy had worked with Bob and he felt, you know,
Bob's really, you know, so gracious and he so that's
how many Kandy ended up with it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and getting pussy Cat was kind of a big deal, right.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, yeah, that was that was a big, huge deal.
It was like the biggest deal you could get. I guess.
Speaker 7: Yeah, there's a national chain, so you would get nationwide
you know bookings.
Speaker 2: I remember we had talked about I can't remember which episode,
you know how some of these lost films. Part of
the reason that the ones that do survive is because
a lot of them played in Pussycats. So that was
kind of like a connective tissue between the ones that
are surviving and that we can see. So this might
have I don't know what the history of this one
was as far as print, because what we have now
is this is Kandy.
Speaker 7: It's a Kandy connection that the negative exists. It's not
a print, like the negative exists for this, just like
it also exists for All American Women. And Deep Jaws
and The Dictator, those are the films, I think, the
only Kandi films where the negatives exist. So those are
ones that I think he obviously cared about more in
terms of distribution. Deep Jaws and Dictator are a little
more personal for him, I think, But the other two, yeah,
he held on to those negatives. Everything else like this
Spence cries Old Dan Spencer movies, Calendar, pin Up Girls,
Love Games, even Danish Connection, those are all only available
on prints because the negatives are gone. So I think
it's It kind of reminds me of like the case
of like Roberta or even Alex Derenzi, where there are
certain movies where they kept in negative form because there
was a personal connection to them and they were like,
these are the ones I'm proud of. But then other
stuff there's just nothing left or there's only a print.
So All American Girl was obviously obviously Kandi took it
very seriously because it was his first pussy Cat booking,
and I'm sure it got booked in a lot of
other places because it wasn't hardcore, so you could get
it on a screen that wasn't allowed to show hardcore.
So it makes sense that the negative still exists. And
that's why I'm just like, let's get the restoration. We
have a negative, Like, let's let's go. What's the hold up?
Speaker 2: Yeah, do we have any evidence about how well it did?
Speaker 6: I do not. No, I thought Bob. I thought Bob
said it was a big hit. I mean that's that's
just what Bob said.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that is interesting. Yeah, we've we've talked about
this offline a bit about how badly we want this restored.
So yeah, the elements are there. Yeah, because it's not
easy to find right now if you want to watch
it unless you have what was it released on Casey the.
Speaker 7: Old Something Weird? It was on VHS and tvgr and
that's it only Something weirded it.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it never got like those image really through something.
Speaker 7: No, which is strange because Deep Jaws and The Dictator
did and that was the big Manny Condy double feature
and then a teaser I think was Manny Conedy and
that came Out with Frankie. Johnny Wlover's teaser was I
think I think that might have been a print as well,
but it's yeah, it's strange. I don't know why those
two didn't come out. It's possible that image said no
if they thought it was maybe. I mean they said
no to the Big Snaps because the title. If they
saw the movie, they would know it's not It's not
that big a deal. But yeah, Well, they also said
no to like Love Camp seven and Sinful Dwarf. So
in terms of all American girls, they might have been like,
this is a little too much or.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but did they even watch Yeah, if they
watched it, yeah, they might have said no. But I mean,
look at the title they went.
Speaker 7: Putting girl and woman out together would have made total sense,
and I don't know if that was ever planned. Yeah,
I mean it makes sense. They're two very different movies.
We'll talk about the sequel because I watched it this
morning and I'm actually quite enamored of it.
Speaker 2: But have you seen the sequel, Patrick.
Speaker 6: I've not. I read about it but never did. I
never did follow up to see it. But I would
be interested too, because you know, I do love love Love.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the more I hear very different, Yeah, the
more I want to see this because Marcus, I mean,
this is kind of the never ending story of sexploitation.
Like there's a lot of characters, and it sounds like
he's a character, so Casey.
Speaker 7: Well, well it's also I mean he's also now that
I've seen his other movie, he's four for four, Like
all four of his movies are great, like you know,
so he really is kind of in the pantheon of
directors for me now now that I've seen everything. And yeah,
I mean the only time I think he was ever
interviewed was for the First Newdy Musical DVD when that
came out through Image and they did a documentary and
Bruce Kimmel you know, got in touch with them and
got him interviewed. That was a very interesting guy like
he It's interesting because he has a similar path as
like Bogdanovitch, where Bogdanovitch was very close to John Ford
and so was Mark Haggard. Like Mark Haggard made the
short film called john Ford Memorial Day nineteen seventy which
actually Bob I asked Bob about where Mark Haggard was.
He said, the last time I spoke to him was
in nineteen ninety one when I got some footage for
Adobe Angels from him. So yeah, he's like a big
repository for john Ford' stuff.
Speaker 6: That makes sense. And you see that in the opening
of The Love Garden where Jason what's his name, Jason,
Jason Yukon Jason, he's reading a is it a life
magazine with john Ford on it? It's a john Ford. Yeah,
there's a john fordy on at there, which you know
I always thought also was that's because Bob's such a
john Ford nut too.
Speaker 7: Right, I'm sure there was connective tssue for the two
of them. I mean it's interesting because, you know, revisiting
Bob's book, which I've raved about on here many times,
he really goes into really good detail about how when
Mark got started, he was he came to him with
a script and then he said, well I want to
direct the script, and so first time director, you know,
growing pains. But then on the second film he definitely improved.
I think the big issue that he discusses was the
fact that he took a lot of time in the
editing room. But when you watch both films and he
edited all American Woman Too. All three of those movies,
the fact that he wrote them in edited, and there's
something about a writer editing the film that so he
basically is providing the narrative and then creating the cinematic
narrative and that pacing and everything. So I'm glad he
took time. I mean, it's it's obviously time is money,
but I think it it worked out in the end
because the editing is so good. Oh yeah, in this movie.
Speaker 6: Definitely.
Speaker 2: When they say like he took a long time, I
wonder if that's you know, what's that relatively inse exploitation?
What's too long a time?
Speaker 7: I think more than two weeks is too long, yeah,
more than peeks, right, more than two weeks is too long.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 7: And I think he had that problem on both movies.
I think Lovegarden and All American Girl he had editing problems.
And I actually I think that's how Mandy Condy knew
that this was going to be good, because I believe
the editing was done at Mandy Condy's film center, where
he had editing suitets and things. So I'm sure he
was seeing like this footage like he was seeing Peggy
Church's masturbation scene. He was seeing, you know, the scene
with the boyfriend. He was seeing the massage scene and like, oh,
this is going to be really good. I think I
need to try to make my mark and try to
get this movie and distribute it myself.
Speaker 5: He saw my breath.
Speaker 10: Do you like them?
Speaker 5: Do you know what a woman's breast over?
Speaker 3: Johnny?
Speaker 5: They provide the milk for the newborn baby. This is
the nippoo and the note comes out of here. Would
you like to touch it?
Speaker 10: Come on?
Speaker 2: Well before where we Yeah? I keep coming back to
Manny Conny because I keep hearing that. You know, everybody
calls him like an odd character and he's kind of
a weird guy. Like what's you know? Give a quick
Manny Condy clips.
Speaker 7: Well, I knew Bruce Kimmel said that. I mean, I
know Bruce Kimmel said that to me because so Brice
Kimmel I emailed him. I think I know maybe he
mailed me because I reviewed First Neody Musical when it
came out on DVD and on DVD drive, and so
Brice Kimmell messages me and I wanted to know about
Mark Haaggar because he did the music for all American Women,
and that was kind of how Mark Haggard got involved
with First Any Musical. And uh, he remembered seeing Love
Garden at it at the and the theaters, and then
he saw All American Girl in theaters because he was
friends with Alan Alan Burton is the name he used
in the movie, but his real name was Alan Abalou
and he's in First Nudy Musical, so he wanted to
go see All American Girl in the theaters too, So
he was very familiar with Mark's work. And yeah, they're
credited as co directors on that. But I'm trying to
let me see. Let me go to the email that
he sent me, so he said, I only met man
on an All American Woman. He said, I only met Manny,
not anyone else in the film. So I don't know
if M. D. Morey really exists.
Speaker 6: So M. D.
Speaker 7: Moury is Maria Condy. Maria D. Moriy was her maiden name,
and then she became Maria Condy. Manny really liked me
for some reason and was always talking about doing Nudie
Musical himself, but I knew I didn't want to go
that route. And the joke is on him because he
went that route without him. He did Deep Jaws, which
is just a soft core sex version of Firstnudie Musical,
which came out the same year. So Manny didn't need
permission and he was just going to do his own version.
He said, Uh, Marcus in Arizona and has been for
about twenty years now. He's become very reclusive for reasons
I don't really understand. I don't know if they ever
got back in touch, because this was in two thousand
and eight, was the when I talked to Kimmel. But
I had my own little almost encounter with Mark in
twenty fourteen. So I did a series in Anthology called
In the Flesh, which was thirty five millionary screenings of
adult films, and we had people come out. We had
Dick Aldrich show up for titillation, one of Bob's, you know,
very frequent collaborators. And after a certain series, we got
pressed in things like, you know, the New York Times
and Wall Street Journal and things like that. So I
believe Mark Haggard heard about it, and so he reached
out to Anthology, the head program of how he worked with,
and he emailed me in twenty fourteen. I completely forgot this,
and he said, I wanted to let you know that
we received a couple of calls now from Mark Haggard.
He wanted to recommend that we show his films in
one of the next installments. He kept me on the
phone reading me quote from Andrew Serris's review of his
work reviews of his work. I'm sure you know his films.
Here's his number and the off chance I might want
to talk to him, So me, I just gave that
number two Vinegar Syndrome, because I said, you guys need
to get him for commentaries for these movies because you
have the negatives and you have the rights because they
bought them from Condy Junior and Maria. I never called him,
which was a huge club on my part. So I
do still have his number, and I think I should
call him at some point.
Speaker 9: Yeah, but.
Speaker 7: This was around twenty fourteen, so he was still actively
talking about these films and trying to promote these films
and get more people aware of his work. So we're
talking ten years ago, and in that ten years, we
still we've only seen Love Garden get restored for DVD only,
and that's out of print, so we're kind of overdue
for like a Mark Haggard, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that he was still like passionate about his movies,
you know, in twenty fourteen, he was still kind of
pushing to get him out there. So yeah, that's right,
that's very interesting.
Speaker 7: Well, when you see them, i mean, can you blame him,
like they're they're head and shoulders above a lot of
stuff that like even more experienced filmmakers were making, you know,
because I.
Speaker 2: Mean there's a lot of sexploitation directors that don't have
that passion for their work. No, they don't care, they
don't care. But he clearly saw something special in him.
And yeah, as you said, as you watch them, yeah,
they do feel there. You can see the heart that
he put into it for sure.
Speaker 7: Yeah. I think the scripts are what does it? Yeah,
his scripts are really good. And then he later won
an Avan Award for The Messeuse, which is one of
the best Paul Thomas adult films. And that script is
really interesting because for an adult film, it focuses on
two characters and they're the only typacial Lee and Randy Spears,
and they're the only people that have sex in the
entire movie. So, once again, off the bat, He's doing
something very different from what the genre expects, and that
was kind of his last writing credit. He won the award.
Paul Thomas remade it in two thousand and four and
he's credited as co writing it. But I don't know
if that was just a credit because they used the
original screenplay and tweaked it, or if he actually came
back into the fold and co wrote it with this guy.
I would love to know more. But yeah, I think
his scripts and his editing are what really make these
films special in my opinion.
Speaker 2: Well, do you know if Mark is alive?
Speaker 7: You have his phone number, but I've confirmed he is
still alive, so I I think I am calling yeah,
because I'm like the fact that the only interview we
have on him is in two thousand and four and
twenty years ago. It's about First New Dy Musical because
as from what I can recall of that that documentary,
it briefly touches on his background in exploitation, but I
don't think it really goes into it doesn't go into
any detail because it's not the subject. So I think
they talk about all American women because that's how Bruce
and Mark met. But yeah, I would love to reach
out to him if he's if he's willing to talk,
I'd love to do just an interview with him for
the POT about his entire career. I think that'd be
really interesting.
Speaker 5: I wish we could go all the way next Saturday,
but I've promised myself we won't do that until we're married.
I won't even undress completely in front of a man
until then. Almost completely, but never completely. It's a strange coat,
I guess, but it's my code. God. I get so
excited just thinking about Saturday night. I can feel myself.
Speaker 3: Get hot all over.
Speaker 2: Oh Patrick, when was the first time he saw the
All American Girl? Like, what were your impressions of it?
Speaker 6: I thought it was just I thought it was wonderful,
like you can again, like he says, with both the
Love Garden and the All American Girl, they are really
something special.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 2: They do play well together too, Yeah.
Speaker 6: They just they inhabit a place that it feels very real.
Although the All American Girl is a little camped up,
which I love so much. It's it's Yeah, I thought
Peggy Church blew me away. I had never seen her before.
I don't think i'd seen the Pickkeeper's daughter at that point,
so I was sort of unaware of her, and I
mean I just I got good, like honest laughs through
a lot of the dialogue, the way she delivers it.
I was sort of blown away by just how intuitively
great her performance was. And then again, the way it
was shot, the Douglas Nap photography was really really something special.
Her masturbation scene of course at the end of it,
where she's just kind of bathed in this orange southern
California lens flair glow. I mean, I don't think you
could get that again if you tried. That's such a
unique kind of textured look. Everything about it. I love
that apartment complex they're in that looks like the same
thing they shot the Toolbox murders in. It's one of
those la very a lot of stucco walls that you know,
it just everything about it is just so la southern California.
But then again, like some of the nighttime stuff, the
darkened room stuff, the lighting is just everything about is
just exquisite. And then I was really really blown away
and I reached out. I mean, I remember I reached
out to Bob and said, yeah, I just got done
watching that, and I mean, y'all, that was truly such
a great, great, great movie. And I think I asked him,
I was like, Peggy Church, whatever kind of happened to her?
And yeah, he didn't really know much either about her,
I mean, just who kind of came and went? So
but yeah, I mean I loved it and I and
I'm just it's sad that the only thing that's available
at something weird VHS. I don't know if y'all the
sound on yours sounds like it does. Mine sounds like
it's coming through a blown speaker.
Speaker 7: It's got a oh mine is not that I have
the DVD R. So I'm wondering if you have like
a bad ripe.
Speaker 6: I think I have a bad rip but yeah, I
have a you know, like some of the dialogue has
some some hiss in it, some very bad hiss. I
guess that's the best way I can explain it. But yeah,
my my copy, ain't it great? Yeah?
Speaker 2: I watched the same version you did, Patrick.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, because I remember Gentry message speen. He was like,
is there a better version out there? And then he
sent me the screencrap. So I was like, that's from
the negative. That's I guess the version you had is
just a really bad transfer, not maybe it's like a
maybe it's a copy of a maybe it's a copy
of a copy, yeah or something, because when I revisited
today on the DVDR, I mean, it's not crystal clear.
But you know, for the time when it was transferred
in like the late nineties early two thousands, it looks
it looks good. Did Bob remember if this was shot
on sixteen millimeter that might also it doesn't look great.
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, it is, it's sixteen Yeah.
Speaker 7: Okay, then that's probably another reason why it doesn't look
great because they were dealing with a thirty five meters
blow up negative. So if we were dealing with like
sixteen millimeter original negative, then it would look way better.
But that would probably explain some of the like weird
color saturations in that too. Well. Actually, it's not too
bad that it looks that. You can still appreciate the photography, which.
Speaker 2: Is yeah, you can, you can but it, but it
as watching it, you're just like, oh my god, how
much better could this look restored? It would be like
a revelation. But Patrick, yeah, you mentioned some of the photography,
and some of those like bedroom scenes, and then at
the very end of the movie there's that card that
is kind of a dedication to the Erotic Master Joe Sarno,
And it all kind of makes sense once you see that.
This is like Mark Haggard doing his Joe Sarno picture,
Like obviously he was a big fan. But it's funny
to see that card at the end because who does that,
you know, like that's a really loving ode to someone
who was still working at the time. It wasn't like
he was looking back on someone.
Speaker 7: It's odd for It's odd for any film I going
to reference another filmmaker in this genre like that. You
wouldn't see someone ripping off. Yeah, you wouldn't see someone
doing like a new d QT and saying dedicated to
Russ Meyer or you know, things like that. You don't
see things like that. You know, it's not like a
Sean Baker dedicating a Nora to Jess Franco and Soladev Midanda,
like they didn't. They didn't do that then, so yeah,
you don't. You don't want to remind your audiences of
other filmmakers that are your competition, Like that's not common.
It's interesting that masturbation scene is essentially the Inga masturbation scene.
I mean, I think I think Inga is the big
inspiration here, not so much reduction of Ingo, which is
very different. But yeah, Inga is like the sexual coming
of age of this young teenager. So I think that's
probably the big, big inspiration.
Speaker 2: They are very different films though, in how the protolacularly
goes about their journey.
Speaker 7: Well, Inga has no realistence of humor, thank god, because
Sosno was not a good comic director or writer. Yeah,
like no, this has a much more interesting sense of
humor about it. There's a sort of a nuts nuts
wink wink that Sarnoon didn't really ever have.
Speaker 2: Well, it's funny Patrick that you mentioned too that you know,
when you first saw it, you were laughing with it.
And I think that if you laugh with it and
you you are kind of understanding the film. I could
see a lot of people watch this and not getting
the humor. But it's funny that you mentioned like you
got it right away, you kind of understood what was
going for, And I think that's kind of key to
the film, don't you think.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, because I mean there's something about the way
there's an eye roll to a lot of the gobs
of dialogue that she has to say about her code,
and it's really all a way to you know, this
is a softcore movie, so it fits. She's not going
to go all the way. We're not going to see
her go all the way. In a way, this is
a little bit like what's his name the guy that
did Flesh Gordon, how he's what's their first one? Yeah,
Mona is all I'll do everything. But and you know,
of course it's it's explicit, but it fits better here
because this is a softcore movie and it's all, like
you said, very cleverly done in the editing. It like
The Love Garden too, it gets this close. But her
performance talking about the wholesomeness of her code. Really, when
she's about to do like the filthiest stuff and she's
the one driving the car, she's like, this is like
that Pasolina movie where Terrence Stamp comes in and fucks
the whole family basically, or Liberus Quartet or something. It's
where this, you know, this really this you know, family
of miscreants get kind of visited upon by a you know,
a sexual uh dynamo, and she sort of has her
way with all of them, and she's in charge of everything.
You never really, I never really get the sense that
she's this, you know, because she's in high school, that
it's sort of you know, untoured or whatever, because that's
not how it's played at all, and that's not how
it's supposed to be taken either. This is this is
a seventeen year old going on a forty and that's it.
Speaker 7: Could have been so tasteless, it could have come across
it could have been a completely tasteless approach to the
subject matter of this teenager, like sleeping her way through
her neighborhood, and it's just not like it's you're right,
she is in full control of that. She's kind of like, well,
I want to seek sexual pleasure because I'm a budding
young woman, and I'm gonna do it the way I
want to do it. I have rules, and that doesn't
mean that I can't do the most insane things. And
tying into that the whole sm M sequence, which kind
of comes out of nowhere, but it's interesting because I
like that it's punctuated by her laughing at the tickle
of him, you know, you know, and so it's kind
of like, Okay, this isn't this is not the image,
you know, it's it's it's this is it's it's playful
s and m it's you know. And even at the
end where she's like, well maybe I'll bring like these
toys and things to this party, it's like it's it's
very different from hardcore. And then it really is about
like the exploration of sex from a weirdly wholesome angle.
It's it's, you know it. It reminds me kind of
like like Danish hardcore films, like the Zodiac films are
very similar. You don't really have stuff like that in
the American hardcore at all, like Mona is. The Mona
is very iffy in a very similar subject matter. So
it is like the inverse of like a Liquorus quartet
or like a Teo Arema where it's like or even
a Sarno where the Sarno is about an interloper coming
in and kind of disrupting things and then we get
to focus on how that affects that family. We don't
care about this family. There means to an end, and
the end is her sexual liberation, which is just like
kind of shockingly progressive when you think about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and I mean it feels like an orgy.
Speaker 6: Bobby comes home from Guatemala, right, right, right, We just hope.
Speaker 2: That Bobby is you know, he's he's welcoming to the
new tricks that she's learned. I think is We hope,
but it feels like a happy ending. Right.
Speaker 7: If he's not, then she'll just move on. Yeah, that's
what the impression I'm getting. She's not. It's it's sort
of like, you know, we've seen films where where women
are kind of like, well, I have to do this
because my boyfriend wants it and they kind of have
to grin and bear it, and she's I think that's
why it's important to introduce the film and the character
with that masturbation sequence, because it's like she's exploring herself.
She has sexual desire, she wants pleasure, but she's just
she has rules to establish boundaries of what she's comfortable doing.
And that's you don't see that even in hardcore the
of the era. It's just like it's it's yeah, it's
just Yea Haggard new what he was doing. That script
script is shockingly it's more subversive than you would think.
Speaker 2: Well, you don't see it in hardcore because they had
already done it in softcore. So you're going to see
a hardcore movie, why would you want to see a
scene that you can see in softcore.
Speaker 7: Well, I mean, like, like thematically, it's always about the
man because that's who the audience does. But the audience
for this is still meant so it's you know, the
messaging of it is just kind of I mean, the
messaging is always going to be iffy. It's like, yeah,
this is an underage girl, it's you know, saturtory rape
or you know, obviously, but the fact that it focuses
on her taking charge and seeking her un sexual liberation
on her terms is something that not even hardcore would
do for years. Like it was became, it didn't become
common until way later.
Speaker 5: Dear Diary, Bobby comes home tonight. I can't wait. Have
I got a few things to show him. I just
hope he picked up a little experience with girls while he's.
Speaker 3: Done there on Guatema.
Speaker 5: But if he didn't, I don't mind.
Speaker 8: Being his teacher.
Speaker 2: I was going to ask you Patrick again, like, did
we really talk about why Bob made this softcore film?
Speaker 6: Because I mean that's all he was doing from seventy
two to seventy four, he had stepped away from hardcore
because it was just too risky, and so everything that
he did from seventy two to seventy three, In seventy
two and seventy three that was softcore. Between these the
Danish Connection, which he didn't really have a whole lot
to do with. But then the two movies that he
directed that were supposed to be mainstream movies, Panama Red
and The Devil's Garden, they didn't really take off. But
then he was convinced to go to San Francisco in
seventy four to shoot He was convinced to get back
into hardcore and change, and then said they said, hey,
why don't you go up to San Francisco to shoot this?
And he went up and did The Married Woman, which
was his return the next year to hardcore.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 6: But yeah, in the interim, he was just trying to
do anything he could in the business to either make
movies or produce movies, because hardcore at that time was
just it didn't look like it was going to be
viable in la and how e Ze kind of proved
that with Flesh Gordon Flesh, Gorton was a very expensive,
very very glaring example of what what could happen to
you if if you, if you continued to brazenly shoot
hardcore in LA. So that's why it's a softcore movie now.
Speaker 2: Damn, I'm very curious by that. The difference between San
Francisco and Los Angeles, Like, can you guys one of
you touch on that a little bit more? Like why
was it?
Speaker 6: Was it just the law?
Speaker 7: Was it like legal law enforcement?
Speaker 6: Thank you? That was not that one deal. They didn't
care about them.
Speaker 7: I mean, politicians gave a ship because they complained about
it a lot like Diane Feinstein do not Rest in
Peace was constant anti form in San Francisco. They constantly
were trying to shut down things in the Tenderloin and
shut down Horno theaters and stuff. But they didn't care
about shooting there. Right, It was not like, yeah, it
wasn't like the L A p D. Where actually it
was kind of the opposite. In LA they cared about
the production. The exhibition was not as big a deal
in San Francisco. It was reversed where you could shoot
up there showing it was like a problematic and certainly, yeah,
I mean the Mitchell brothers. Could the Mitchell Brothers had
to do with a lot Yeah, up there and low
Will pick Itt Arlene Elster too, I believe, Yeah, and
Alex dec yes, yeah, the screening room exactly. So yeah,
that was more of the issue. In San Francisco, LA,
Like the Pussy Guy was huge, you know, they they
had other adult theaters in LA. I mean, yes, right,
I mean, oh god, yes, that's right closing, I know,
oh god, yeah, I just heard that end of an era.
And it wasn't that the movies were like, it wasn't
the movies got off scott free in exhibition. There there
were obviously still going to be issues, but it wasn't.
Speaker 10: It was.
Speaker 7: The bigger issue in LA was the production, Like they
wanted to bust you because that was what they could
really bust you on, which was basically the prostitution in
loitering and pandering charges because you were paying people to
have sex, which was illegal. That was cops.
Speaker 6: That was in New York too.
Speaker 2: Cops were literally like period into windows trying to capture
like them shooting it right.
Speaker 7: And now you see that in Blue Money.
Speaker 6: And that's why you have tight groups of actors and
actresses is because you know it's all a matter of trust,
and you know that you didn't want to bring newvies
in onto your production in LA because you didn't know
who these people were. You didn't know what kind of
trouble they could be in. They could rat you out
to the cops to if they were facing a drug
charge or something. That was just a really, really bad
situation for directors and producers in southern Californi. But you know,
the difference in what the movies feel like. There is
a world's worth of difference between the hardcore productions being
shot in LA in say seventy one or seventy two,
and say The Married Woman in seventy four. It's like
a big breath of fresh air. There is a big
sense of relief in San Francisco that's just not there
in LA. The shots are more careful, they take their time.
It just it just feels much much more, much less
run and gun, like they're looking over their shoulder. Yeah,
The Married Woman is a great example of just this
stark difference in hardcore that pre seventy six in the
two areas.
Speaker 7: For LA productions, Like when at the beginning you have
things like Mona with a lot of outdoor scenes or
Harlotte with that amazing sequence on the top of a
building being shot from the helicopter and then eventually it
settles down and it's really hotel rooms, like houses, pools,
usually owned by like you know, secret Hollywood people. The
San Francisco even earlier films like the like the Deerenzi
stuff and the Mitchell stuff, a lot of location footage,
a lot of taking advantage of the different locations and stuff,
and actually and getting like professional football players in their movies,
like you know, in San Francisco football players. So even yeah,
even that whole thing, there is that sense of like
it's taken a little more seriously, or it's taken more artistically,
or like it's a it's an active expression in San Francisco,
where in La it's like, I mean, it's it's essentially
we got to make money and this is how we're
going to do it.
Speaker 2: How long was Bob up there?
Speaker 9: Then?
Speaker 6: In San Francisco he continued to shoot up there for
their until you know, like the mid eighties or whatever,
when he was shooting like stuff on video that where
you know, the law, the law didn't change. The eighty
eight was I think when it became technically legal to
shoot born in LA but they were they started to
shoot like on video in people's house. He was shooting
in the mid you know, in the eighties. I think
was mid eighties is when he started to really go
back to LA to shoot. But by that point he
was pretty much done so, but he would go to
San Francisco for almost every shoot, with the exception of
Disco Ladies in LA Production and there's a couple of others,
but most every other movie he made from seventy four
to eighty five is San Francisco mostly well.
Speaker 7: So you can tell by the talent usually as well,
because there's a I mean, Chris Cassidy very much san Francisco,
Like even Pizza Girls, like yeah, Lauri and Dominique and
can you Roy san Francisco. Yeah, yeah, you can usually
tell by the cast. Sometimes they'd bring people up from
LA like I don't think you've worked with Ronical Heart,
but like that's why when I interview her and about
the Gary Graver movies, she had to remind me know
these were all shot in San Francisco. I'm like, really,
like I thought they were a Los Angeles because it's
all LA people. She said, no, the bus were still happening.
They were shot in San Francisco, like movies were very
very rarely shot in LA after a certain point, once
people found out San Francisco was it head for the Hills,
literally San Francisco, Grace.
Speaker 10: I don't know what's gotten into you. Every time I
start showing affection, you act as if I were insulting you.
Speaker 5: Mark b reason, we have to get up in about
five hours, So can't you just be an.
Speaker 10: Ancient and ghostly.
Speaker 7: All right?
Speaker 3: Damn it.
Speaker 10: Don't be surprised if you wake up one morning and
find that your husband is having himself a little fling
on the side.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I want to talk about Douglas Nap, cinematographer, very interesting career. Yeah,
so he also shot Lovegarden, but he went on to
work with John Carpenter.
Speaker 6: Shot Go to Yeah on p.
Speaker 7: Thirteen, which is great. I think he was the guy
before Dean Condy came along and kind of was like
then kind of took over. Dean Condy stumbled it.
Speaker 6: He was, he was. He was super busy working on
Matt Simpers movies because he shot the Lady Taylor, Lady Coco, right, Yeah,
and the witch who came in from the city. You
shot that one, yes, which is great.
Speaker 7: Nap got kind of you served. I mean, he wasn't
he was, he was, he wasn't lacking for work after that.
But it's just interesting to think of him as connected
with Carpenter for like a couple of years and then
it became the Dean Condy Show all the way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think the real MVP here is also
Don Dunn, composer who did the music, which is a
huge part of this movie. It absolutely it wouldn't work
without it for sure.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 6: That song is an airworm I can't get I mean, yeah,
it gets in my head.
Speaker 9: I love that.
Speaker 6: I love that tune, and I love Yeah, I love
all the all the music throughout the movie.
Speaker 2: It's just really Yeah, who was it that told you
Casey that was it done himself that said it was
mostly piano, Because that's not mostly piano.
Speaker 7: No, that was first Kimmel for all American women. Don' well.
Don Dunn was like, that was a situation where I
thought he died. He's not dead. Another IMDb falsehood, They
confused him with another Donald Dunn that was a bass
player for Stax records who died in a hotel room
in Tokyo while he was on tour with Eddie Floyd.
Speaker 6: Love.
Speaker 7: Yes, exactly like he died. That's not the same Don
dunn So the Don this Don Dunne was mostly a
songwriter and he wrote a lot of songs that recovered
by like a lot of major people. And uh, now
he's still around, So another person I should call because
if he has the tapes for the soundtrack, I I
would be desper for a soundtrack, you know, CD or
released because.
Speaker 2: Every piece and this is great, Yeah, the way that
they I wonder if he composed while watching the film.
You know, I know musicians for film work very differently,
but it feels like it because the way that it
crescendos for a lot of these scenes.
Speaker 7: Yeah, just perfect.
Speaker 11: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's very cut to the music. And and I
should say that it felt like Love Garden that way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was cut to the music, So you know
that seems.
Speaker 6: Like, yeah, I mean that was just something that did
Haggard cut both of those?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 6: You said he did?
Speaker 7: So that's yeah, because well, and that whole Love Garden
situation was weird, and that actually ties into the sound
guy on this because the story, the story of Love
Garden losing its entire soundtrack is a director and producer's
worst nightmare, because they had like they it's they. It's
The interesting thing is I'd seen that movie multiple times.
For some reason, it never clicked to me that it
was was dubbed because I just bought into it. I
never bought it. And then I read Bob's book where
we discussed an amateur soundman losing the tapes or saying
they were stolen from his car. Like, nobody would steal
these tapes. Nobody knows what they are. They're not going
to steal reels of sound. So they had the three
cast members have to go into the studio re record
and then rain Na dou who directed Beauties and the
Beast and some other stuff, had to like minutely edit it.
So two editing problems, Mark Haggard being taking his time
and rain A Doe having to edit the audio the
you know, the dialogue. So it's a miracle that movie
turned out as well as it did, considering that that
could have totally sunk that production.
Speaker 6: And they do such a great job, and Bob said that,
you know, they gave better performances doing the eyeball sync
than they did in the actual movie. So it ended
up turning out to work in its favor. But they
do do a really great job just looking at their
images and on the screen and trying to recreate the
speed and the right tone. And yeah, they do a
really really good job for that movie with that movie.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think it says a lot for all three
cast members too. I mean, we've we've obviously read about
Barbara Mills and how good she is, but like Linda
York is always good, and Jason Yukon this is one
of his only movies where he actually acts like the
god Son is He's not very good in that. But yeah,
all three of them are like doing really good work
in The Love Garden, and I think that post dubbing
session is super helpful to actually make their performance better,
like a happy accident. Well so in terms of sound,
like the Love Garden sound was messed up. So I
don't know how. I don't know how this like guy,
the sound guy in this was a guy named Paul
was Paul Magwood, And so I go to look at
his resume and I say that he wrote and directed
a movie for MGM called Chandler, which was taken away
from him and then it behind his back, and I'm thinking, how,
why two years later is this guy who made a
movie for a major studio doing sound on this exploitation movie. Well,
he produced Haggard's short film about John Ford, So I
feel like this was a case where Haggard was like,
I know you know what you're doing. Can you come
to me a favor and record sound on this movie?
Very quickly? And he credited this guy. He's the only
thing he ever did sound on, so it's very it's
a very odd credit. And even odnors it apparently he's
married to Leslie Krone. Still I find very unusual. Uh
and uh he's still around, so I'd like to I
would like to get the full skinny about how he
ended up doing the sound on this movie. And it's
such a unique name, Paul Magwood. Not a lot of
Paul Magwood's, so I think it'd be very unusual for
two people working in Hollywood, in the film industry to
have that specific to that sort.
Speaker 6: Of related to that. John Hayes did sound on The
Bob's Unmarried or The Married Woman, and he'd already that's
after he'd already directed tons. Yeah. Well that Grave at
the Vampire is big, you know, right, but I mean
not quite the same thing as making a movie a
period piece for MGM.
Speaker 7: But but like he'd been directing. I mean, John Hayes
ha been making movie since like the late fifties, like
he did The Room mcclanean thing, like he'd been directing
a lot. So that is very odd credit where it's like, yeah,
I'll help you.
Speaker 6: Out, why not.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's nice Brian's help of John Hayes.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I liked everything I've seen with John Hayes.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's really good. Another one, La had to go
to San Francisco to do Baby Rosemary and Hot Lunch.
All of his hardcore?
Speaker 6: Yeah, how much hardcore did he do? I mean, you
do very much hardcore?
Speaker 10: Right.
Speaker 7: I think that people are conflating his hardcore because he
used Harold Perkins on a lot, well, the ones that
are known he used Harold Perkins on. I think people
will say like Harold Parkins or variations that sound like
Carol Perkins and assign him to other films without verifying
that it's actually him. I think he did less than
ten maybe less than five, it wasn't something that he
did on the regular. Well, the other only other cast
member that I took notes on was was Jack English,
who was the gaffer, and so he worked again with
Douglas Knapp on bad Lands and Assaults on pre SEEDT thirteen.
So I'm not saying they came as a package deal,
but I think it's just interesting. We both ended up
working on those two movies together, and English kept working
as a gaffer on all sorts of stuff. I mean,
he worked with Altman, he was on short worked on Shortcuts.
But the big thing that I the two big credits
that I care about was he was assistant Cameron Pets,
which is the iconic Candice Rylson star vehicle. And then
he was the lighting director on Eyes of Fire, which
is incredible, the incredible precursor to The Witch. You know,
so very interesting career and another guy that I'm like
the great thing about interviewing people and the crew, they
don't have any reputation to protect, so if there is
stuff that happened on the set, they are not going
to mince words. They're going to tell you who is
a problem. They're gonna tell you. Yeah, if you're looking
for dirt on a movie set, like Grips and Gaffers
and pas will tell you yeah, the cinematographer problem may
not because they're still working. Grips and Gaffers are kind
of like, yeah, I'll tell you whatever you want. So
I'd love to talk to him.
Speaker 5: It's been a pleasant week, after all. I think I
misjudged Johnny Goodman. Sure he's shy and blushes a lot,
but he's a nice kid. I help him with his
homework and he always thanks me and asks me if
he can give me a coke. I learned he wrote poetry,
and he made me a promise not to laugh if
he read some to me, so I promised.
Speaker 2: The poems are kind of cute.
Speaker 5: Actually, Johnny's only problem is he's never had any experience
with the girl that I'm going to remitate.
Speaker 10: That very soon.
Speaker 5: Now.
Speaker 2: Well, I know we talked a little bit about Peggy
Church Casey. You said that she was in men's magazines.
I haven't seen any of her men's magazine stuff, Meg,
do you know what she did?
Speaker 7: A lot, a lots a lot of men's magazines. Yeah,
she was a regular. And that's the thing. There are
very few actresses in this industry that didn't do modeling
in magazines, like whether they use that name or not,
so it's tougher to track them down. But yeah, I
mean that was that was what their agents got them.
It was either acting work or modeling work, and that
was including print work. So yeah, she definitely did print work.
And I don't know where this information that she was
born in. I've seen two places, either West Virginia or
False Church, West Virginia, which is right next door to
my hometown. I worked in False Church for years, so
I'm like, oh, does she move back? Is she local?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 7: You know, it makes you wonder, But I don't know
where that info came from. I don't know if it's accurate.
So yeah, she is kind of one of the enduring
mysteries of seventy s exploitation and that she made such
an impact in this one movie and then has smaller
interesting roles and other stuff. But she's just not as
good in anything else that as good as she is
in this. I think it helps she was dealing with
someone like Haggard and who was going to give her time,
And yeah, I don't know. It feels like she's one
of those actresses that excelled in working with a good director. Also,
I guess Sarno's kind of like that too, Like Tina
Russell's not really good except in Joe Sarno films. So
I guess she's the Tina Russell of the West Coast,
except she didn't do hardcore.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Pigkeeper's Daughter is the only kind of other.
Speaker 7: Media role I've seen her in. Yeah, she's not good
at bit parts. Yeah, but she's very whiny in that.
It's kind of like she plays she plays a version
of this character. I mean her introductory sexiness, her masturbating
on the roof of a of a hut while her
boyfriend has sex Ary Gibson, and so yeah, she's basically
whinting about trying to keep her virginity. It's it's very
different from this where it's kind of like, well I
want to keep my virginity, but I want to explore.
Speaker 10: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, it's funny you mentioned the modeling work. Is I
want to see it now to see how she's presented,
because clearly like she was hired for this part because
she looks younger and she presents younger.
Speaker 7: How do I put this like a part of her
now it's not presented in like age inappropriate kind of things.
Is that what you're hinting at. She's not. That was
not and I'm not going to say it didn't happen then,
but it was. It didn't become as it didn't happen
as much. She's not a little Velvet Summers, Let's put
it that way, like a little Velvet Summers in the
early eighties in New York. This Pip Squeak is like
four foot eight. Obviously, cast is like, you know, an
adolescent or younger. Peggy's church is always in her magazine work.
She's always presented as an adult. She's posed as an adult.
It's not even a high schooler. She really is. Her
modeling work is presenting an of age adult woman.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 7: Yeah, well god, she is going to be very awkward. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I don't know how much we'll run through the cast
list quick, but I mean a few of these are
just there's nothing right. It's one of those cases.
Speaker 7: Everyone use pseudonyms, like even Tracy Handfrews, who's Tracy Rogers
and Tracy Handfrews is one of the hidden gems I
think of exploitation. She's in the big snatch with Peggy Church,
and I don't know if either of you have seen that.
She plays one of these women who's abducted by this
horrible guy to keep us like his love slaves on
a farm. And she plays a lesbian in that, and
she there's a really good, crazy twist ending that involves her,
and she's really good in that. Don Greer cast her
in the lead role in The God Daughter, which is fine.
But she's typically very good. She's just not used well
by a lot of directors, kind of like a Barbara Mills.
Actually she didn't really, she didn't even get the lead
roles of Barbara did. But I think she's she's very
she's typically very good. She handles dialogue really well. And
not her real name, because no one has ever existed
with that name, as I have searched high and low
for someone named Tracy Handfous.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a strange name. It's got to be fake.
Speaker 7: Well, it's hand and then foot in German, so it's
technical Tracy Handfoot is Yeah, it's a stupid pseudonym, so
you know, uh. And there are very few people who
would remember anything about her, because yeah, she would show
up and do work and leave kind of like a
Kathy Hilton.
Speaker 2: Well, and all her scenes here are just with girls,
which is similar to the Big Snatch, Right, I'm trying
to remember if she has a male female scene in
Big Snatch.
Speaker 7: I don't recall. I don't think that there's a I
don't think.
Speaker 5: I think.
Speaker 7: I don't think she has like an assault scene. Oh wait, no,
I don't remember. Yeah, unless she was part of that long,
long sequence near the end where they're like shagging him
to death. I don't remember. Yeah, I don't remember that.
Speaker 2: It just went on forever Alan Abelou, like you mentioned, Yeah,
he's a Mark guy. He showed up in first musical.
He plays Peggy's boyfriend that goes off to Guatemala for
her little Yeah, as the.
Speaker 6: Guatemala I wonder why.
Speaker 2: He chose that, like, of all the places or of.
Speaker 7: All the like, I don't know, maybe with popular destination
at that time. Yea, there, And it wasn't that long either,
wasn't It wasn't like a deployment for like how long?
I don't remember now. It was also a good role actually,
all the dudes in this. It's kind of a good
role for almost everybody because there's really very little male
nudity in this, Like you don't really see anything of Alan,
you don't see anything of of Andy, and you see
a little rear nudity from Paul Barrett, oh yeah, with
his giant afro. The only other one that I recognized
him anything was Andy Mitchell, and he plays you know,
the the suburban dad with a with a like a
kinky streak. He he was in Teaser, which is another
many many Conde distributed movie, probably Greg Valtierra, which is
very good and actually we should cover that because I'm
friends with the cinematographer and editor of that and he
would do an interview about that one. But he plays
Renee Bond's husband in that where Becky Sharp is like
sexually assaulted and then is taken in by Rene Bond
and Andy Mitchell.
Speaker 10: Oh.
Speaker 7: Interesting, that's a very good that's a that's a good one.
I quite like that one.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, characters like a smut novelist. I like that little touch.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 7: The only other cast member I was wondering about is
Trim Randall is the waiter, and I wondered if that
was Roland Miller in a cameo because it is it
is a weird almost anagram of Roland Miller rim Randall.
Speaker 2: He has that line about let's he say all nice
little bracelets he got there where he's talking about our.
Speaker 7: Oh yeah mancuffs.
Speaker 2: Oh he's just gonna say yeah. He's like, did George
Raft give you those? George Raft?
Speaker 1: Like that.
Speaker 6: Roland Miller is in uh Panama Red and he has
a you know, semi prominent. Is that the same guy?
Speaker 7: I have to rewatch Panama Red to watch him. Well,
Davis is in that too. It's like it's basically the
gangs all here, Bob Bob just asking all of his
friends to show up and pitch in with this movie.
Speaker 6: PG rated Weed Musical. Uh yeah, this thing.
Speaker 7: Panama Panama Red.
Speaker 2: Ok.
Speaker 6: She doesn't like it. I I adore it, but I
need it. I understand though, I get it. I totally
get it. I just ill it.
Speaker 7: Well, what it kind of reminds me of is like
Milligan's Compass Rose, where it's very inside baseball and it's
really an excuse for him to like do something with
his friends. And Panama Red. It's kind of like that
for me, and I watched it before. I was really
a huge Bob Chin guy. Like I I saw it
when I was familiar with the the Johnny Watch stuff,
which I've only I only like one of those films,
so I think I've watched now. I'd probably like it more,
I think for sure. But that's interesting. I need to
compare that because Roland Miller died in nineteen eighty one,
like he died a long time ago. When I did
find his widow because Bob told me he died years ago,
and he said, I think I think his widow was
living somewhere in California, so I did just find her.
But yeah, he died actually not long before Walt Davis died,
while Davis died around the same time.
Speaker 6: Oh I've been gone for that long.
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, I think Walt Davis died early early eighties
because I did research into that because what did I
just watch, Oh, Substitution, which was his first movie where
it was shot at like it was shot at a
car radio or a stereo store, and it was you know,
that was Walt's background, was working in stereo equipment. And
so I found a really good article where it discussed
that he died and someone else inherited his business, like
in the early eighties, and then it was purchased in
nineteen ninety one, a bigger conglomerate for stereo equipment. So yeah,
rip Walt Davis and Roland Miller.
Speaker 6: Crazy little bracelet you got there, Georgia, give it to you.
Speaker 7: Thank you, sir, like some champagnes Luke.
Speaker 2: Well, I know we touched on that opening masturbation sequence,
but there are several sequences that I think you could
say are just as good. And that mutual masturbation sequence
that's when that happened. I was like, Okay, I'm watching
something different here, Like this is different than a lot
of sexploitation I've seen because of that editing, Like he
spent his time editing that to the music, and what
you see or don't see is really interesting, like how
he frames it like that is very particular. What are
your guys' thoughts on that scene or what the first
time you saw it?
Speaker 6: Well? Yeah, like you, I I thought, wow, that that's
something I haven't seen, and I said, what a clever
way to get away with some undeniably filthy material. I
mean that's pretty. I mean, like you know what you
see there is like wow, that's nutty, and I didn't
see anything at all, but yes, it's it's the it's
the cutting to the music and the building of the tension,
and you really feel that because you get the impression
that Peggy Church is just having a great time. You know,
I mean either she's either she's not faking it or
she's just a great actress, one of the two, because
you feel like you're in that moment with them and
it just makes it. That's what makes that movie so
special in almost all the encounters is that's sort of
how it feels.
Speaker 7: I think every vignette is really special. I have a
phrase that I like you so like in terms of
I think I've reviewed a lot of Joe Gage stuff
on letterbox and it's stuff that I watched when I
was much younger. But I was like, well, I bought
the steved in two thousand and six and it took
me two weeks to get through it, which is, you know,
use your imagination or not. But this is one of
those scenarios where it's like you, if they have this
on video, you would be taking your time with this,
Like it would not be something that you're going to
power through. You would be taking your time with this
because it's just an embarrassment of erotic riches like every
scene is good and it's it's interesting because a lot
of exploitation movies have that scenario where there's like a
centerpiece and then there's a lot of other stuff around
it to meet the criteria of the of the genre.
So like there's got to be a lesbian scene, there's
got to be a kink scene, and there's got to
be a group scene. This eliminates the group scene. The
lesbian scene is super well done. The kink scene is
unlike any other. There's no I mean there's actually there's
a one and a half kink scenes because there's the spanking,
which is over pretty quickly and it's more playful, and
then there's the sort of light bondage. But it toys
with those expectations by not and it makes it not predictable,
you know, because I think anyone going to a film
like this is like, well, I know what I'm going
to get, and this defies all those expectations by not
giving you what you expect from something, especially this late
into the genre. Yeah, but Love Garden is the same
way because it's it's Love Garden is a cast of
three people. There's very little sex in it, and what
is there is very graphic. It's essentially work graphic than this.
I think it is Linda yorke Is. I think it's
her most graphic, like she never did hardcore, but it
gets very close. But yeah, I mean it's primarily lesbian
sex and then there's you know, the sex imadjacent yukon,
but it's really not that's I think that's why Hagrid said,
it's interesting to have someone who's very much an outsider
to the genre coming from a background of like being
a john Ford person and being a film person, coming
into this, into this industry and kind of you know,
trying to do something different and succeeding because a lot
of people would try something different and it wouldn't work
because they don't understand what's expected. And so in his case,
it's like he knew what was expected and they said, well,
let's let's let's play with this a little bit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to ask you about the end of
this scene because I've seen it several times. I'm not
sure what's going on with the editing here. I'm we're
going to get graphic. This is a graphic movie. So
at the end, she's got the tissues that she's his
handkerchief that she has taken from him, and I can't
tell where she's depositing his his leavings, if it's if
she's catching it in the handkerchief or in her mouth,
because at the end she like spits something into the handkerchief,
but we don't see her mouth going down.
Speaker 6: I think it's that he I think it's that he
ejaculates into the tissue, and I thought she ate it. Okay,
that's what you see it dripped down or you see
it drip down, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I was like, that must be what's happening.
But then in the back of my mind, like, there's
no way that's what he's showing here.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah he is, that's what I thought.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, thank you.
Speaker 7: Yeah, even she wants to be able to it's very Yeah,
it's like she she really gets experienced quite the education. Really,
it's just kind of like yeah, she's like well you
know yeah.
Speaker 2: And then the best part is that she like kisses
him right after, and it's like, Okay, this is you're
going away party. You're going to got a mall.
Speaker 7: Snowballing too, Like yeah, like there's snowballing in this going
before people knew what that phrase was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my god, okay, all right, thank you for
clarifying that.
Speaker 7: For me, I was like, you could always watch it again.
You know you want to go back and watch the
scene again. You know it's so well done.
Speaker 2: Yeah all right, Well if you guys ever see another scene? Yeah,
what where is there another softcore movie with snowballing? And
for sure you're not going to find one like now.
Speaker 5: And let me have my own way. Remember this had
the last meet three months too, and a group. It's
just as horny as guy. Oh him, your handkerchief, h
your handkerchief.
Speaker 2: I guess we kind of glossed over, like the whole
character of the boy that she's babysitting, like the depiction
of him is I guess I always hold the guy.
Speaker 7: She is a little fruity, and he is a little fruity.
Speaker 2: I always assumed he was kind of like supposed to
be autistic. But is that how you guys read it?
Speaker 10: No?
Speaker 7: I did not read it that way.
Speaker 2: Interesting because he's fourteen years old, but he's like, you
know the nose in the book kid who just the
way he talks and the way he goes to his fruity.
Speaker 7: I think he's just you know, it kind of reminds
me of like Casey Donovan, Misty Beethoven, where his ky
like you know, it's it becomes a challenge for her
to like seduce this guy because that is kind of
an interesting angle to it, because it's like, yeah, he's
little fruity. He seems very on the Swiss side, and
uh so that's why I think we're talking about that interesting.
Speaker 6: Yes, she calls him, Yeah, she calls him a sissy
and yeah, right, and that's sort of the code what
you know.
Speaker 2: I sort of got the say, I never got that
impression that he was Oh are you kidding?
Speaker 7: Oh I absolutely yes, the way yeah, like he's he's fussy,
he has is kind of a feminine.
Speaker 2: But he has no problem like getting it up for her,
and he talks about thinking about her.
Speaker 7: So it's like, I don't know him as sexuality as
a spectrum.
Speaker 2: I think he's on them.
Speaker 7: Maybe it's just peggage Church, No, I think it's I
think that impression maybe because he's played by obviously an
older person who was obviously not fourteen. He looks like
he's like twenty eight. He looks much older than everybody.
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, I don't know.
Speaker 6: It looks like I think, well, I don't know if
what the thing I get from it. And there's no
way y'all would y'all would know this unless you're just
way into indie rock. But there's a band called the
Chainsaw Kittens and their lead singer his name is Tyson Mead.
And he looks exactly like Tyson Mead, and and Tyson
Mead is is gay. And and you know, so when
I see him in that movie when he taught me
like you see sounds, and looks just like Tyson Mead.
So that's sort of wild. There's sort of this thing
about that. But yes, now I sort of thought that
he was gay but awkward and not really kind of sure.
And she's and she's a dominant sexual force and that
sort of.
Speaker 10: No.
Speaker 7: I mean, you know, we've had that conversation. We had
that conversation on our last episode about russ Meyer. Listen,
I don't know what I would do with a russ
Meyer woman if she did that to me, Bob Bardow
and she's just towering over me, I don't know what
I would do, you you know.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't, I don't. I don't think if he's
if he's gay, then I don't think. I don't think
she would turn him straight. She'd just give him a
he'd have a good story to tell some later on
down the line, right, you know my babysitter, you know,
you know what I feel, you.
Speaker 7: Know, right when he's when he's married down the line
to his second husband, then he'll be like, yes, I
did have sex with the woman, well sort of, there
was my babysitter and I was in high school. Yeah,
I definitely don't think it's a situation. Licorus Quartet is
that like, isn't the the son is gay? And Liquors
Quartet and doesn't she? Yeah, I think the Liquors Quartet
or the Tearrema connection is there because Tearima the son
is gay too, and that I believe.
Speaker 6: So there you go. That's the kind of Mark Haggard
making term move.
Speaker 7: Mark Haggard sent him a literate like, yeah, he's He's
definitely shown his influences there. Well, Liquorus Quartet is one
of the only Metsican movies that I actually like. It's
that and Teresa Isabelle and I could wait Terry Douglas movie. Yeah,
what is what were you thinking it was. Yeah, Liquors
Quartet is the follow up to that.
Speaker 2: You're talking about the liquorice movie, Pizza, Liquors Pizza.
Speaker 7: I would never recommend a pt Anderson movie on this podcast.
Speaker 2: That's who I thought you were talking about, all right, No, I.
Speaker 7: Wouldn't recommend Booge Knights on this podcast.
Speaker 2: No, No, Patrick, that's a good segue. What are your
thoughts on Bookie Knights.
Speaker 7: I still love.
Speaker 6: Boogie Nights, and I still love pet Anderson even though
you know it's it's not factual in in a lot
of ways. And you know, but you know, when I
when I saw it in ninety seven, it was just,
you know, sort of just blew me away in terms
of the filmmaking, you know. But now that I know
much more about the subject matter, I mean, yeah, it doesn't.
None of it rings true except for the whole idea
that a lot of times there was a very sort
of a familial connection with these people. That's still absolutely
that still goes on today. And pt Anderson did get
that part of it right, because I mean a lot
of his movies, especially early on, are about broken families
and family dysfunction. At least all the way up through
there will be blood. So you know, I don't I
don't dislike it. I really do. Still still like Bookie Knights.
Bob Bob has mixed mixed feelings, but he owns it
in his collection, so so and and I get it.
I get it because you know, yeah, they Bob Bob
or a filmmaker of that caliber was not shooting that
kind of movie in nineteen seventy seven.
Speaker 7: I mean right, sounds like a Rittazener production, yeah, or
Bob Kirk production. Yeah, not not production. Bopen was making
Dick Aldridge movies at that.
Speaker 6: Point, right, that's a right, then, that's right. Then a
Steckler you're talking about.
Speaker 7: Them, Yes, exactly, one cameraman and a sound guy.
Speaker 6: That's it.
Speaker 7: I don't think so.
Speaker 10: No.
Speaker 7: I didn't intro for the movie for Mahoning Drive in.
Actually they asked me to do an intro, and I
like it.
Speaker 10: I do like it.
Speaker 7: I just wish it was more accurate. But you're right.
I think the big thing, big takeaway from it for
me whenever I watch it is the fact that I
like the characters and I like that they have that
connection that kind of saves them from being completely broken.
Which I think is a lot of people in the industry,
and I see that all the time. When people reconnect
to have and talked in years from the industry, it's
always like reconnected with like a long lost family member. Yeah, yeah,
because that's only a small amount of people that did this, right,
So it's like and it's something that they can talk
to somebody about and they'll understand because they through it
as well, which is which is terrible because that's what
like trauma survivors have in common.
Speaker 9: But this is not.
Speaker 7: It's not not necessarily trauma in the case of the
adult industry. In some cases, yes, but I mean it's
just the fact that you went through something like that,
which is very uncommon.
Speaker 6: Very unique time, you know, just you know, something that's
just not going to ever be recreated again. I mean
they are like you know the you know, the test
pilots or you know, people that just they go through
something that's so rarefied. And yeah, I've noticed that too,
you know, the interactions I see with uh, you know,
retired performers and their in their you know, twilight years. Yeah,
there's just something about that connection they have that's so
unique that you know, that's their specifically.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Veronica hart has a cameo in that, right, she's.
Speaker 7: On the judges. The judge Nina Hartley does too, and
I think that's uh.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Veronica Heart did. Actually, I gotta say she did
work with Bob but later on in his New Era
movie she did not do a sex role. But she
comes in the I Know Hard what was it? The
Magnum Love his first Peter Magnum movie. She's in that,
she's got a small cameo. And then she's also in
Blonde Fury, which is another uh Peter Magnum movie, I believe,
and that one also has Jim South. That one has
Henri Pueschard in it, so it's that's a fun one.
But yeah, they that they never worked together where she
was doing her you know, like she wasn't that's long retired.
She was working for a VC BCE.
Speaker 10: A v C A.
Speaker 7: Yeah, she's in VCA stuff. Actually, I just thought of something,
something not mentioned in Bob's book, just related to our
last episode where we talked about russ Meyer. Bob ten
directed russ Meyer as an actor and all the way in,
but he doesn't discuss it in the books. I don't
know if he had any stories about russ Meyer, But
have you talked to him about that?
Speaker 9: Yeah?
Speaker 6: I asked him about that, and he said that, you know,
he was just kind of a gruff, sort of semi
humorless guy and I and I sort of figured that
would be the case, seeing that russ Meyer had such
a sort of disdain for hardcore porn and he's now
I mean, and when they make all the way in
that's what eighty four russ Meyer is basically, you had
He's forced out of the business only five years prior,
so you know, I mean, got a day's pay or
whatever he got for it.
Speaker 10: That.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, I don't think Bob had any sort
of he didn't have any sort of great stories that
I sort of understood that was probably going to be
the case. I'm glad that that image exists of the
two of them sitting next to each other on a
on a on a fake on a plane set, you know, right.
Speaker 7: So yeah, yeah, I also thought that was interesting. I
didn't know. I didn't even I was like, how did
he even get involved with this? And did Candy Samples
call in a favor? It was just like it was
very unusual casting. But it's a nice surprise, but.
Speaker 6: Well, and also if you look on that plane, you
see Bob Boss he is on there.
Speaker 7: He's yeah, that's right.
Speaker 6: And so I don't know what. I don't know what, like,
I don't know what was going on. Maybe that there
were they were. I forgot if I even asked him
how he got involved. But yeah, it's just maybe it
was because.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, the stories of that production are crazy
because Candy doing, Candy doing trying to do a scene
with the guy who was her husband at the time,
who then stole all over money and ran off, who
could not stay hard because he was not a performer,
Pat Romano.
Speaker 6: That's what caused Bob to retire, kind of quit basically
after that. He threw his hands up after that final
scene because it was just it took him forever to
shoot it because that guy was just not getting it up.
And then you know, Candy, she was exclusive to him
and wouldn't do it with anybody else, no stuntcock right exactly,
they were betied. And that's such a bummer because that
scene is actually really good. That transition into that final
scene is really good. That yeah, Bob had sort of
had enough and kind of quit for the first time.
He came back. Yeah, soon later, But I mean, but yeah.
Speaker 2: That's interesting, Like did Bob ever consider doing going back
to softcore or doing something non hardcore?
Speaker 6: Yeah, he did. When he retired in basically in eighty seven,
he went to Hawaii and lived there for a while,
but then they moved to Albuquerque, New Mexico, where he
was a camera salesman. But he got the idea to
make a movie with his then wife, Debbie. She wrote
a script and it was this two hander for these
Peggy I think Peggy Sterling was one of the actresses,
and another old old actress, old Western actress, and they
wrote this script and these two gals actually signed on
to do it. But then the producer who had talked
about and we got the funds for it that he
sort of had become over committed, so that fell through.
But the guy that ran the camera store that Bob
worked at, said, hey, why don't we go ahead and
just why don't we scale everything down and we'll make
a movie together or whatever. So they made Bob and
his wife and this guy they made a movie in
Albuquerque in nineteen ninety one called Adobe Angels and it's
shot by Jack Remy. He came out. It shot in
black and white. It's a gorgeous movie. It's a drama.
Debbie chen Is the is the lead. She wrote the script.
You know, it's and it's really good. It got a
premiere or got one or two premiers, but it never
got picked up, so it never got released. And then
in ninety seven he and Debbie made a thirty five
millimeter movie together called an Unnatural Acts, which is really
kind of annoy lash thriller, and Debbie again as the lead.
She gets a co director credit on this one, and
they were separated at this point, but she brought him
in to direct. All of the thirty five millimeter camera
and all the crew was pretty much UCLA students. But
it never really quite got finished. It never. It never,
I think, went through very many passes on the editing bay,
and I think what exists of it is a work
print cut on VHS that's about one hundred and seventeen
minutes long, and it's really you know, I mean, the
ending is what it is. But there's some good stuff
in it. For sure. It shows what Bob could do
with some money and some equipment. But then it was
soon after that that he got rope back into the
hardcore business because he needed the money pay for his
kids college basically, and Debbie was helpful and stewarding him
into the business, even though at that point they were divorced.
Speaker 2: By that point, yeah, the business was very different, but
I could see him being adaptable for sure. It's a
video or digital Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, he had made some shot on video stuff in
the mid eighties. Of course, the difference in quality is
much different by the time he gets the ninety nine,
two thousand, yea and whatnot. So, but yes, the business
had changed quite a bit. But Nina Hartley was also
part of the crew that helped him plug him back
in with Adam and Eve and then with Wicked. But
then once he got with New Era, which was sort
of his label with a bunch of Vietnamese and Chinese
Americans in LA and he made about I guess about
twenty eight titles on New Era. Those are actually a
lot of fun. I kind of have a good time
with those for what they are, I mean, But Debbie
was not in the picture at that time. But he
really got into the groove of making his old Private
Eye movies just dusting awful. Johnny Watt scripts and retooling
them and writing new ones and he was having a ball,
but you know that was and then that was it
for him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Bob's career reminds me a lot, to a certain
extent of Jess Francos, who, like he was still operating
to a certain point in the nineties and the even
the odds shooting abilities, Yeah, shooting.
Speaker 6: On video and Russell had to shoot on video. I
mean some of that stuff. I mean Bob saw the
I mean Bob saw the whole thing. Bob was there
at the very beginning, and you know, and then he
was there when it contracted the first time with VHS
in the in the theater shutting down and moved video,
and then he came back just in time to see
it contract again with the Internet looming, because that's by
the time he shuts down about two thousand and three,
the Internet becomes pretty ubiquitous and changes everything to now
to what we see it as now. Basically, I'd love
to get Bob.
Speaker 2: It would have been great to get Bob and Jess
in a room together because I think they could have
shared how much they hated shooting like hardcore or because
there's some hardcore because Jess, I know he hated it
because it took so long to like to get things going.
You know, the performers weren't always uh ready to go,
and it's like, what, we got to shoot a movie here,
you know, Jess shot so fast, so it's just like
I can't deal with this anymore. So, Yeah, Jess left.
He didn't really do much hardcore after that.
Speaker 7: Yeah, thank god. Yeah, we have the ones we have.
Speaker 6: We're not good.
Speaker 7: Their paycheck movies.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but yeah, it's great that Bob is still
around and his memories are still living on through you know,
people he's had discussions with. And I need to check
out that book for sure. I know both of you
guys have saved about it. It's just the one to
think they're different.
Speaker 7: This is this is both volumes and one Yeah, there's
two volumes, and it's how long is it? Because over
five hundred pages? It could have been five hundred pages more.
And I would have ate this up because there's stuff
that he's told me, and I'm sure you Patrick, they're
not It is not in the book that like he
I remember one of the first things I emailed him
about was I had I said can I ask you
questions about Tropic a Desire, which is one of his
personal favorites. He wrote me back a college essay of
answers to my question, so I have the full history
of the production of that movie, which is not in
the book. So, I mean, he's very gracious with his time,
as you know, Patrick, and uh, if he knows the answer,
he'll tell you, yeah.
Speaker 6: For sure, Yeah he's yeah, he's He's told me some
anecdotal stuff I wouldn't you know. I'm not gonna say
he talked about sure Leek Carrol a little bit. Uh,
my favorite.
Speaker 7: See, there's the thing about Seductresses. He always told me,
I don't remember much about it. I shot it quick.
He remembers the Lisa Delao thing story, and he remembers
he did. He told me it as a favor. I
love Seductress. I was dying for more info about that movie.
Speaker 6: He I mean the he told I mean, he just
told me. He had a very very choice word carol,
you know, but his Yeah. I had to ask him
about it because what was I asking him about the Seductors?
Because I love it and I would feel that really
good something that he would be more proud of but yeah,
he I don't know what was going on with him
during that period, like from nineteen eighty one to the
time he starts making the higha Patiale movies, because all
that feels very kind of hazy, and and not just
because he was having a lot of setbacks after around
that time with his falling out with John Holmes and
then all the issues with Sadie, which yeah, so.
Speaker 7: That's such a bummer. And well that was something interesting
cause Sadie I'd only ever seen on the Vinegar Syndrome release.
And then he says in the book what the actual
runtime of the theatrical alone was before it was cut down.
I was like, oh, so there's even more footage than
like a theatrical print that is not on the DVD
that we don't know because there are no prints.
Speaker 11: Right.
Speaker 7: I love that movie. And that's another one Joe Ruben
vnder Grischndram loves too, so he was excited to put
it out. But yeah, that's one of those movies that's
like what could have been?
Speaker 6: Yeah, I would love to find Yeah, but of course
there's another one that you know, you know, you had
to you had to shut down production halfway through it.
Speaker 7: Right, because then my tam had to come in for funding, right, Yeah,
because Larry Price.
Speaker 6: Larry Price proved to not be as reliable as that's shocking.
I know that's shocking Larry Price.
Speaker 7: But yeah, Larry Price did Strangers for a Spinelli and
I was like, how did this turn out?
Speaker 10: So? Well?
Speaker 7: Well, Larry Price involved.
Speaker 6: He was the line he was line line line direct
line producer or lines on on candy stripers. He's mombed
right because he was Yeah, he was mopped up. Yeah, sorry,
because he's also in Lips and McCain.
Speaker 2: My least favorite of that.
Speaker 6: You're I think Lips McCain.
Speaker 7: Oh no, I'm sorry. I don't like. I think tele
Fantasy I think is weaker. I like Lips and Macaine enough.
The acting is good.
Speaker 6: I love tell fantasy, but that's there's a yeah, I
think it makes me laugh, But I also like to
see a cleaned up copy.
Speaker 7: So yes, well, yeah, that's the thing. I guess we
can kind of touched on that at the beginning in
terms of like films that are available, because yeah, the
Tobolina is we have gorgeous of of all of that
stuff and that, yeah, and there's and yeah, I mean, well, yeah,
for some people, yes, thank god.
Speaker 6: No, I'm being facetious.
Speaker 7: Oh okay.
Speaker 6: I was like, I'm a fan, but yeah, I'm a fan,
but I understand.
Speaker 7: Right, But like, like, I want a clean up version
of Candy Strippers just because I don't want to have
to see the fisting scenes on VHS quality as Easter eggs.
Like I'd like to see the whole thing together. I'm
so glad we got Pizza Girls, and I'm so glad
that that has new legs now because of that Blu ray,
because i still see new reviews of that come out
and I'm like, oh, actually, this is really funny and
really good. It's like, yes, thank you, like you know, oh, yes,
it's terrific. I'm glad legs got attention. I love hot Legs.
I think that's really strong. But there's definitely movies tropical
desires that really emphasizes how strong that production was, for sure.
Speaker 6: But yeah, there are just a lot.
Speaker 7: I got lucky.
Speaker 2: Yeah, That's what I was going to ask you, Patrick, Like,
what movie do you want to see of Bob's that
hasn't been given a new restoration yet, because there's still
quite a few.
Speaker 6: If I if I could wish it into existence, it
would probably be either tele fantasy or it would it
might be Blonde Fire, which Blonde Fire is in such
bad shape. All of those Johnny, most of the Johnny
Watt movies are not in the best of shape. That
has a lot to do with Armanitanian. That was his
That was his call to make substandard video copies. He
felt that that would deter piracy. Sure, you know, but
because of that, all of the Freeway film Johnny Watt
movies just don't look as good as they should. They're serviceable.
The transfers that are available or though they worked, are fine.
But Blonde Fire was expensive, and there's a lot of
production detail in that movie, and there's a lot of
really gorgeous stuff going on in that movie. It's not
one of my favorite Johnny Watt movies. In fact, it's
my least favorite from that era. But I guarantee you
I would probably like it a little better if it
were cleaned up and I could enjoy some of the
I think probably Bill Wolf probably is the production designer
on that, or John x ex Worthy, one of the two.
But I'm sure that, you know, I'm sure it would
look a lot better because as it is now, it's
cut up. There are jump like big jump cuts in it,
and it just it looks like trash. It's awful.
Speaker 2: Was it actually shot in South Africa?
Speaker 6: No shot Oakland where house. Everything was shot in Oakland warehouse?
I think yeah, yeah, And I mean it looks I
mean it's convincing though. It's like the thing about Bob stuff.
I mean he does a good job doing that. He
actually can create an actual mood and time and place
in his stuff. He's just got that ability. Those those
are his you know basic picked up from you know,
Joseph von Sternberg when he was in his class.
Speaker 7: My favorite is my favorite. Johnny Watt is the one
I want to see. Resorts is China Cat. It's basically
Johnny Wadd means Charlie's Angels.
Speaker 6: It's my favorite. Yeah, that's my favorite team.
Speaker 7: That's my favorite. And also the end shot is incredible awesome,
and I'm like, I must see this restored because that
is peak perfection, just like oh right. I think that's
why I like it said much because there's clearly a
lot of care put into that movie, which is interesting
because the one before it, which is Jake Pussycat, Right,
I don't like as much. Something about China Cat just works,
you know in all cylinders.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's it's such a well, that's one of those
things that it is. It's Johnny Wadd meets Charlie's Angels,
which it's like that's something that seems to happen at
that specific time in the late seventies were you know,
in comic books and other things, these weird people are
getting like lumped together, like Muhammad Ali fights Superman and
it's stupid. Yeah, stupid stuff. I mean, I mean variety
shows are hot. I mean this is like really really
light light stuff. And I think that all of the
Johnny Wadd movies up to that point are you know,
they have a lot of serious stuff. There's a lot
of you know, they're deaths and there's a lot of this.
That movie is just nothing but frothy fun. It's these
gals trying to figure out where the Jade pussy Cat is.
Each one of them sleeps with them to try to
get what they want and none of you know, And
I love that one. I mean it's and it was
an afterthought, that's the thing about that one.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's so much fun. The one one, and also
I think of the ones that are just not available.
I really need brother and Sister to show up. At
some point. I'm dying to see brother and sister because
that's the that's him and Roland Miller. It's like the
next It's essentially for me. It's kind of like the
next step after all American Girl, like I know Devil's
Gardens in between, I think, but yeah, brother and Sister.
I've had the poster for years and it's so tantalizing,
and it has Susan Westcott. I know Susan Westcoin's on it.
I think Jackie Gierox is in it, Tracy Hanfoos is
in it, Sandy Dempsey's in it. I think the Yeah,
it's like, I'm shocked that that hasn't turned up somewhere somehow.
Speaker 6: I went on a I called out to, uh, the
Erotic Museum in Vegas.
Speaker 7: And I talked Ted mclavaney's place. Uh, no, Harry movie,
Oh Harrrimony's place.
Speaker 6: Okay, yeah. Bob sort of hit me to that to
ask them if they might know, because they do. I
think they They actually go and catalog people's private collections
as well. They're asked to do that and whatever, but
they have not turned that movie up.
Speaker 7: So my poster I have is a Canadian poster, so
it's printed on the back with the Montreal sensor Board
has approved it and it says and that's written on
the back taboo love. So I think it was maybe
reissued or they put that on there for some reason
if they were going to show it again and they
wanted to say they were, you know, showing it that
print or whatever. So I know it got released in
Canada and that might be the next step. I don't
know how good they're I don't know where that what
the steps would even be, but yeah, it just looks
so good and uh and based on the Roland Miller
track record, all those movies are good, so I feel
like this one should probably be too.
Speaker 5: That feels good. Just relax, Missus Goodman, and I'll make
you feel very good. You could get a job as
in a suit.
Speaker 2: You're marvelous.
Speaker 10: I haven't even the ken this too?
Speaker 5: Is that better, Missus Goodman?
Speaker 10: Oh yes, dude, that's wonderful.
Speaker 2: But do keep on before we close out, Casey, I
think you're the only person who's seen this sort of
unofficial is it official sequel All American Women? Oh, tell
us a.
Speaker 7: Little bit about this. So, yeah, this was the one
that I've owned. So when all was something weird, when
All was something weird, all the many Kande stuff went
out of print, and we should talk about that too.
So they licensed those from the Kande estate because Manual
Kandy died in nineteen ninety two. I'm sorry, I think
he actually died in ninety four, but for some reason,
IMDb says ninety two. So they licensed the Kandy library
and they put out all these conde titles. So All
American Women. When they annound they were going out of print,
I bought them all just to stock up. But that
means I still haven't seen like Danish and Blue, and
I still haven't seen Love Games. Lu Sharon Kelly an
All American Woman. I said, well, we're talking about All
American Girl. Let me put this on. And I'd heard
it had a bad It has a bad reputation because
I think people are comparing it to All American Girl,
which it absolutely is not. It's much more grown up,
but it's still very Sarno. It's it's sort of a
suburban melodrama. It's about a model who comes to stay
with her sister and her sister's family, so very sarna
right off the bat, she is very sexually unfulfilled. The
first sex scene is a masturbation scene, which is very
similar to All American Girl. With the lighting and the photography.
Man Conde's duplicating. Douglas knaps photography very well, but it
takes place in like a living room chair, and so
it focuses on this woman who's a model, and how
she's trying to seek sexual pleasure. But it's the opposite
of All American Girl, that she's not finding satisfaction like
anywhere like, so you know, and then her her niece
has the same similar problem and that she's having sex
with her boyfriend who looks a small pot and have sex,
but he comes too quick and leaves her unsatisfied. So
these two, so this woman and her niece have a
very effective sex scene together and then they kind of
come away changed. And then the model finally finds sexual
pleasure with her brother in law, and so it's the
production values are strong. The production values are a little
better than All American Girl. And I have no doubt
that it was titled that because of the success of
All American Girl. It's all American Woman, but it's not
the same character all grown up. It's just a different woman.
So Minni Condi obviously it was just like, Yeah, we
need to do another movie like this. And I don't
know if Mark had this script ready or if he
wrote specifically for this production. I was very surprised at
how much I liked it. It's another one where you
can see that Haggard's talents are definitely in the writing
and editing, because both are terrific. On Letterbox, they gave
it a four out of five. I gave it really strong,
strong rating. Not as good as Love Gardener All American Girl,
but it's really very very good. Joe Rubin and Vinegarsindrome
reviewed it and gave it two and a half and
said he thought it was fine.
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 7: He does, yes, So that's the That's kind of the
frustrating thing is that so the Kandi estate sold those
films after they didn't license them to Vinegarsonder and they
sold them so Vinegarsendron bought them outright. And all the
elements that they had which were only negatives to those
four I mentioned, I believe was her deep jaws Dictator
and the All American Girl and All American Women and
then other prints and things. So they and I think
there's a few others, but they said they were going
to do All American Girl an All American Woman, like
over a decade ago. They announced it and said they
were going to put them together. So that's when Mark
Haggard was in touch with Anthology. I gave them Mark
Haggard's phone number and I was like, call him, get
a commentary for Love Gardens. So when you upgrade to
Blu Ray, you can put a commentary on there and
do the commentaries for the All American films. And I
believe that they did call and speak to him, but
I don't know if it went anywhere, because I have
a message from Niger Syndrome saying we spoke to him. Well,
I don't know, And I don't know if it's because
the elements are in good shape. I don't know if
it's because they don't think they'll sell. I really don't know.
But it's kind of like the apostle of library, where
it's sitting there and that's it, Like it's not even
getting restored to be put on like hot movies or
streaming or anything. It's just sitting there. It's incredibly frustrating because,
like I've I've been with the company and privy to
the company stuff since the beginning, because I knew Joe
Rubin when he was in like he was an underage
kid on MySpace posing, you know, posing as someone in
their twenties when we talked about porn for hours and hours.
So I was with her at the beginning, with them
at the beginning of the company. So I as they
kept buying libraries, I got more and more excited. And
then as we get a lot more and more Tobolina
and uh, I was just like, Okay, so this is
this is what's happening. We're getting the Tobolinas and we're
not getting the Apostle offs, and we're not getting the
Mandy Condi's. So I resent the Tobolina's. And I think
in a conversation I've had with with Joe Ruben, he's
acknowledged that that he thinks that they glutted the market
with that stuff. So when people are being told that
vinegar syndrom is restoring stuff that is worthy of attention,
and then looking into films and they're getting the Tobolinas.
They believe that they have been sold a false package
because they're going to like, well, you're saying these films
are worthy of attention these I'm sorry, you want me
to watch Flesh Pond and Sexual Heights like instead of
you know, so I think that, unfortunately, I think the
Tobolina's kind of had a negative effect on the on
the the Pikorama releases unfortunately, which sucks because they are
in the best condition. The films just aren't good.
Speaker 6: That is true. I will agree with that for sure.
They are not.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, that's it's it's it's There was another
guy that there's someone else I was very good friends
with on Facebook, which I don't really use anymore, who
was part of the Vindiger Syndrome Appreciation Group, and I
think every single announcement for like a year that of
the package that was coming out, he would say, oh,
so all American girl all American women is next time, right,
It's next time right, because he loves these movies. Is
this He loves all American girls And he he would
say that, and eventually they'd be like, I don't think
they ever responded, you know, it was just kind of
like so he he would. I had private conversations and
he say, I'm just giving up on ever seeing these movies.
I'll probably die and never see these movies looking gorgeous.
I'm like, well, that's extreme but so but also like
the it's film. You've seen the movie. It's not like
a lost movie that's sitting around not being it's you know,
brought out. It's not like if like come right the
while Pink Corus was found and yeah, that I'd be like,
I can't die if it's around. I can't die without
seeing that movie. At this point, he just want to
see it nice and clean, which is fair. But yeah,
I'm hoping, and I keep hoping with the meliciny line
as they keep going back to the well for softcore,
that will eventually get to the count, the Condis and
the Apostle Offs because the elements are apparently there. It's just,
you know, the good thing is they are and good
can they're in good enough, They're they're being taken care of,
which is a good thing because they have a they
have a huge vault, so it's all been taken care
of and make sure it's not going to go into
actual vinegar syndrome.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I mean, yeah, no shade to Bob or Tobalalina,
but yeah, we've exhausted I feel like they've exhausted that
for a little while.
Speaker 7: Well the Bob's, like, the bobs are all exciting to
me because it's like because those are I know, they're
good film, but like they.
Speaker 2: Need a little slower I think I think they did
put out a lot times. They're done.
Speaker 7: Yeah, we don't have any any other any Bobs to expect.
They still haven't put on the tobolines out because they
really they Yeah, they cut that the faucet off because
I think they realized it was diminishing returns on those.
But yeah, the Apostolos and the Kandy are that those
are the two big lives. That's the too big library,
uh libraries that they have that are they're not being exploited.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've talked about those early Apostolovs, how fun they are.
So yeah, I hope those are.
Speaker 7: Well, even the seventies ones are. I mean, I love
Dropout Wife and class Reunion is good. I mean yeah,
there's definitely and well almost all of them are written
by ed Woods, so you have the Edwood connection. Just
capitalize on that if you need to. The Kandis are
tougher cells. But especially because the people at Vinegar Syndrome
who are working on the sex film souf. I know
the good stuff, so they know these films are good.
So I wish they'd get prioritized. And that's all I
can say. They don't listen to my suggestions anymore. I
tried to talk them out of releasing Intimate Lessons and
that didn't go well. That still came out.
Speaker 2: So all right, So we need to send this podcast
to Joe, to Bob because this, and to Mark Haggard,
who is somewhere in Arizona.
Speaker 7: Mark, you yes, I don't know. I you know, I
think Mark. I feel like maybe if you reached out
and wanted to get do something with his films ten
years ago, I can't imagine what that feeling is ten
years later, where it's just like God, people still don't
want to talk about my films.
Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 7: We still want to talk about your films. Mark, if
you're listening, we're dying to talk about your films. We
spent almost two hours talking about this movie.
Speaker 2: So you know, yeah, agreed. Any last thoughts, Patrick.
Speaker 6: Well, I'm with, uh, yeah, I'm with I'm with Casey
on that. I mean, I really I I And I
want to say I got to see the All American Woman.
I've not seen it, but it's I hope, I hope
uh someday. But yes, I I it's a shame that
this and all American women are not being prioritized by
Finniker syndrome. And I did not really think about how Yeah,
the Topalinas may have saturated the market and made a
glood of things and whatnot. That makes up a lot
of sense. But but yeah, hopefully this movie will get
its uh, we'll get its day where it gets cleaned up.
But as you said, you know, it's available. I mean
you can see it. It's not it's not that it's lost.
It's not that it's cut up or anything. It's not
you know, I mean that's some some movies, you know,
they're they're that's the way they are. They're just missing stuff.
But this is this is intact, so you know, I mean,
it could look better, but it could be worse. But
it deserves all the attention it could get because it's
it's the fabulous movie from top to bottoms to.
Speaker 11: The All America American Girl to Day the Man Tomorrow
the World call America American Girl Ram a bad mother.
Speaker 8: And nothing on her O say can't you see what
she's doing to me? Lai hallelujahs.
Speaker 9: The All American American Girl starts Ram.
Speaker 8: You want to see her? Girl, You'll say, can't you
see what she's doing to me? Laurent or Alan Duvia.
Speaker 9: All America American Girl.
Speaker 7: She loves to game the balls.
Speaker 9: Yes the windmen know, world think can't you see what
She's doing to me?
Speaker 8: Glory and had a lot ye think can't you see what.
Speaker 10: She's doing to me? By Deborah Collins. When was the
last time you were spanked?
Speaker 5: Not since I was ten? But go ahead.
Speaker 11: If you want to.
Speaker 10: Thank you for listening to hear more shows from the
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