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<v Speaker 1>Dolcomen. Today We're going to talk about science and how

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<v Speaker 1>I'm always right, So just remember that AJ take us away.

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<v Speaker 2>A new study published in the Public Library of Science

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<v Speaker 2>is shedding light on why people often stand firm in

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<v Speaker 2>their beliefs during debates. The reason they think they have

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<v Speaker 2>all the facts even when they don't. The study authors

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<v Speaker 2>are calling this the illusion of information adequacy, which was

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<v Speaker 2>demonstrated in an experiment where participants were split into two groups.

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<v Speaker 2>Two groups were given opposite but incomplete facts about a

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<v Speaker 2>fictional school merger, and the third group was given all

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<v Speaker 2>the facts. So despite the incomplete information, the two groups

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<v Speaker 2>with health the facts believed that they had enough information

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<v Speaker 2>to make an informed decision. However, when presented with the

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<v Speaker 2>full picture, their opinion shifted to match that of the

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<v Speaker 2>group that had all the facts. This is good news,

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<v Speaker 2>so that people are more open to changing their minds

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<v Speaker 2>than expected, and the study actors say that being more

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<v Speaker 2>curious about other people's perspectives can lead to deeper, more

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<v Speaker 2>honest conversations about serious issues. So curiosity may have killed

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<v Speaker 2>the cat, but perhaps it won't be what kills humans.

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<v Speaker 2>This story is from Fortune by any Freemen on October Ninetheen,

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty four.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks AJ, And I have to say that you're more

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<v Speaker 1>hopeful than I am, and I would expect that. One

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<v Speaker 1>thing for me is I recall that my dad used

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<v Speaker 1>to very sarcastically say, don't confuse me, but the facts

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<v Speaker 1>my mind is made up when he was talking to

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<v Speaker 1>people who just refuse and ignore the obvious. And it

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<v Speaker 1>did come to mind almost the big onset of this article.

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<v Speaker 1>And I was hopeful, like you, Aj, that it showed

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<v Speaker 1>that people were willing to change their mind. But being

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<v Speaker 1>a little more dubious, I feel that in a controlled

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<v Speaker 1>environment it's one thing, but you know, tell somebody who's

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<v Speaker 1>taking survey questions and answers. But in a real world environment,

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<v Speaker 1>how do you think this would play out? With people

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<v Speaker 1>talking about things where they are in their own echo chamber?

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<v Speaker 1>What do you think you think this would be likely

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<v Speaker 1>effective for them too.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the study leaders and flecchers, he noted that

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<v Speaker 2>he thinks that the most common disagreements stem from just

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<v Speaker 2>simple misunderstandings, like you know, your partner doing the lotary wrong,

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<v Speaker 2>or putting the toilet paper under instead of over, and

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<v Speaker 2>he said that being able to employ curiosity during those

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<v Speaker 2>very small conflicts will help you during bigger, more difficult conversations.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know that this would put you in a

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<v Speaker 2>better position to have a real discussion about substantive disagreements,

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<v Speaker 2>which are often political in nature. So I completely agree

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<v Speaker 2>with this. I think that being able to look at

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<v Speaker 2>someone else's perspective before making a harsh remark or you know,

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<v Speaker 2>thinking that they're doing something to be malicious cull solve

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of the issues that cause unnecessary stress and

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<v Speaker 2>anxiety for the average person and within their their close

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<v Speaker 2>relationships and friendships. And it may seem like a small

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<v Speaker 2>skill to master, but it's all about changing the brain

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<v Speaker 2>that our brain reacts to things. And when we begin

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<v Speaker 2>to react more curiously about small issues, you know, wanting

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<v Speaker 2>to learn more, that's when we start to do the

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<v Speaker 2>same with other issues, like even the big ones like

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<v Speaker 2>political disagreements, religious beliefs or stances on social justice, or

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<v Speaker 2>professional settings at work and things that are you know,

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<v Speaker 2>a big deal and not just on a personal level.

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<v Speaker 1>Cara, I was wondered about you do you do you

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<v Speaker 1>think that people because there are some people who just

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<v Speaker 1>dismiss science entirely. They will say that, you know, God

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<v Speaker 1>created the world in six thousand years, or the Earth's flat,

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<v Speaker 1>or you know, the shroud of torrenchs you convince all

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<v Speaker 1>of us to go to church tomorrow. What do you

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<v Speaker 1>think about these kinds of people? Do you think that

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<v Speaker 1>this could be something useful to reaching out the people

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<v Speaker 1>like them too, or how do you think about that?

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<v Speaker 3>I do? I mean, I think it is important to

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<v Speaker 3>note that on some of those points that you made,

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<v Speaker 3>there may be people who are dug in on certain

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<v Speaker 3>issues and they are committed to their positions on those issues,

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<v Speaker 3>not because of any kind of information that they have

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<v Speaker 3>received that supports those things, but because of some other motivation,

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<v Speaker 3>such as they need to continue to believe those things

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<v Speaker 3>in order to prop up worldview that they feel they

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<v Speaker 3>would be endangering their soul if they did not continue

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<v Speaker 3>to believe in, or you know, various other kinds of motivations.

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<v Speaker 3>They don't have to be religious ones. So yes, I

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<v Speaker 3>think there are occasions where perhaps no amount of curiosity

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<v Speaker 3>or kind and compassionate and empathetic communication may change someone's

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<v Speaker 3>mind right there on the spot. But I think that

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<v Speaker 3>the nature of the interaction and does matter, And I

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<v Speaker 3>think this article fits into the larger conversation that we've

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<v Speaker 3>been seeing lately about this concept of the backfire effect,

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<v Speaker 3>which is kind of a sort of popular term that

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<v Speaker 3>we use to describe this proposed effect that may occur,

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<v Speaker 3>which says that when people are presented with information that

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<v Speaker 3>contradicts the belief that they currently hold, they're actually more

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<v Speaker 3>likely to dig their heels in than to change their minds.

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<v Speaker 3>And we kind of took that as the truth for

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<v Speaker 3>some time, but recently we've been seeing more questions being

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<v Speaker 3>raised about whether it may be a little bit more

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<v Speaker 3>complicated than that, and it's not always the case that

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<v Speaker 3>people dig their heels in when they're presented with contradictory information.

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<v Speaker 3>People do sometimes change their mind. I know I have before,

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<v Speaker 3>I know we probably all have. Here we can probably

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<v Speaker 3>think of an example of a time that we changed

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<v Speaker 3>our mind when we were presented with contradictory evidence, And

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<v Speaker 3>in a lot of cases, I think if we consider

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<v Speaker 3>why we changed our mind in the face of that evidence,

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<v Speaker 3>it may have to do with factors such as how

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<v Speaker 3>that information was delivered. Was it coming from someone that

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<v Speaker 3>you genuinely believed was interested in you and your well

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<v Speaker 3>being and did not have nefarious intent, Was it delivered

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<v Speaker 3>in a way that was compassionate and empathetic, or was

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<v Speaker 3>it delivered in a way that was rude and insulting

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<v Speaker 3>and accusatory.

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<v Speaker 1>These may be.

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<v Speaker 3>Factors that are more important when deciding whether someone is

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<v Speaker 3>going to change their mind or not. So I do

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<v Speaker 3>agree with the gist of this article when it's suggesting

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<v Speaker 3>that people exhibit some curiosity before they just jump in

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<v Speaker 3>and start assuming that other people have bad intent or

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<v Speaker 3>that we need to just dig in our heels.

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<v Speaker 2>But it seems that it is also a case of

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<v Speaker 2>the less someone knows, the more confident they'll feel about it,

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<v Speaker 2>And this reminded me of the dune in Cruder effect

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<v Speaker 2>is a concept that that was actually coined by two

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<v Speaker 2>psychologists in the nineties, and they noticed that people with

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<v Speaker 2>limited knowledge or skilled in a specific area who thought

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<v Speaker 2>that they knew enough, they usually overestimated their abilities and

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<v Speaker 2>thinking that they knew more or better than most people

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<v Speaker 2>based on the small amount of information that they knew

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<v Speaker 2>about a specific topic, right because they had, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>read an article or news about a news headline, and

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<v Speaker 2>then suddenly they thought that they knew the whole the

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<v Speaker 2>entire situation. And on the opposite end. You also have

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<v Speaker 2>people who are extremely skilled, for example, like a highly

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<v Speaker 2>trained scientist or engineer, and they may believe that they

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<v Speaker 2>don't know enough about their own field or their topic,

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<v Speaker 2>and that their peers are more knowledgeable, so they underestimate

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<v Speaker 2>their abilities. And the positive side of this is that

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<v Speaker 2>when people doubt themselves or their knowledge, they're more likely

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<v Speaker 2>to seek or their information and answers. But you know,

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<v Speaker 2>they don't in Kruger effect. Explains that why some people

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<v Speaker 2>are more likely to fall for things like conspiracy theories.

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<v Speaker 2>They think that they know enough about science or history,

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<v Speaker 2>but they have no idea. And it seems that we

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<v Speaker 2>are all prone to being on either side of the

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<v Speaker 2>don't in Kruger effect. But I think the solution is

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<v Speaker 2>to be more self aware and to admit when you

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<v Speaker 2>when you know enough or when you don't know enough,

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<v Speaker 2>and to also realize that you're more than likely are

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<v Speaker 2>never going to know everything and that there's always something

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<v Speaker 2>new to learn. That's my personal model, like, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know shit, don't anymore.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I was going to ask you about the Dunny

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<v Speaker 1>Kruger effect, but I think you cave a pretty good

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<v Speaker 1>explanation of that, And look, I get it. I know

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<v Speaker 1>that all you other people are wrong sometimes, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>but seriously, I hate being wrong. I will do not deny.

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<v Speaker 1>I absolutely hate it. But I hated enough because it's

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<v Speaker 1>one thing I hate more. I hate staying wrong even more.

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<v Speaker 1>And so I think that with that in mind, you

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned all of us changing our minds. Well, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>as a former Believer who work for a former clansman

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<v Speaker 1>who is a delegate to a party that shall not

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<v Speaker 1>be named a long time ago, decades ago. Yeah, I've

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<v Speaker 1>changed a few of my views on a few things.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think it serves as a good reminder for

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<v Speaker 1>all of us to be reminded that we've been wrong

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<v Speaker 1>about things too. It's just sometimes it seems so hard

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<v Speaker 1>thinking that the other people because once again, that's our

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<v Speaker 1>otherness mentality that we like to portray, and it's good

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<v Speaker 1>to be reminded that we fit in that category too,

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<v Speaker 1>to make sure that we don't fall prey, because sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>we are, but as being aware of it and having

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<v Speaker 1>that self awareness, it's so important. So, Cara, I was

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<v Speaker 1>going to switch over to you, how did you think?

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<v Speaker 1>What do you think about I want to kind of

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<v Speaker 1>carry off on the dunning Kruger effect. Do you think

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<v Speaker 1>that that's something you see on a regular basis? Is

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<v Speaker 1>that something that you see and do you have a

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<v Speaker 1>particular methodology on dealing with it? Oh?

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<v Speaker 3>Sure, Yeah, I do see that quite often, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>and we sometimes say I even catch myself doing it

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<v Speaker 3>sometimes and saying, oh, you know, I probably know just

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<v Speaker 3>enough about this to be dangerous. And that's kind of

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<v Speaker 3>what that is. And you know, to the point that

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<v Speaker 3>was made earlier, Yeah, we never have all the facts.

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<v Speaker 3>Our information is always incomplete, and we do have to

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<v Speaker 3>still go about our lives and make decisions constantly throughout

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<v Speaker 3>the day, many many times a day in the face

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<v Speaker 3>of incomplete and inadequate information. So yeah, we probably are

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<v Speaker 3>kind of primed to do that. If we couldn't ever

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<v Speaker 3>make a decision or come to a conclusion in the

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<v Speaker 3>absence of all of the facts, we'd all be paralyzed

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<v Speaker 3>with indecision for probably all of our lives. So, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>I think it's okay to give people a little bit

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<v Speaker 3>of a past sometimes. But it's exactly that attitude that

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<v Speaker 3>was mentioned earlier, of assuming not just that you know

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<v Speaker 3>enough to have an opinion or come to a conclusion,

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<v Speaker 3>but assuming that you are in possession of all of

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<v Speaker 3>the facts and there's nothing more to be learned. That's

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<v Speaker 3>when you know, Okay, that's that's not accurate. That's never

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<v Speaker 3>going to be accurate. You're never in possession of all

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<v Speaker 3>of the facts. It always pays to find out more.

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<v Speaker 3>It may be challenging. It may lead to you having

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<v Speaker 3>to reconsider a belief that you kind of didn't want

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<v Speaker 3>to have to reconsider, and it may lead to you know,

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<v Speaker 3>for some people, dealing with nuance or gray areas is

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<v Speaker 3>unsettling and difficult, and it may lead you to a

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<v Speaker 3>place where you realize, hmm, I don't know enough information

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<v Speaker 3>about this topic to actually have a solid opinion. It

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<v Speaker 3>could be this on the one hand, it could be

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<v Speaker 3>that on the other hand, and we don't really have

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<v Speaker 3>a good way to make a decision sometimes, and I

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<v Speaker 3>think that can be very uncomfortable for people, But sometimes

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<v Speaker 3>that's just the reality, and it helps to just be

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<v Speaker 3>a little bit more comfortable with nuance if you can,

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<v Speaker 3>and be ready to acknowledge that we don't have to

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<v Speaker 3>have all of the answers all the time. Like we say,

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<v Speaker 3>quite often, it's perfectly okay to say I don't know,

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<v Speaker 3>and I think we should do that more often. I

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<v Speaker 3>know I should do that more often, and I'm the

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<v Speaker 3>person who goes around saying that all the time. I

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<v Speaker 3>should put that into practice more so, Yeah, I think

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<v Speaker 3>that is basically my opinion on that I don't know

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<v Speaker 3>for sure.

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<v Speaker 1>I have to say that I don't know as probably

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<v Speaker 1>consistently the most honest answer you'll get from somebody, because

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<v Speaker 1>rarely does anyone say I don't know when they really

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<v Speaker 1>think they know the answer, unless they think it's a trap.

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<v Speaker 1>So excluding that, now one thing, AJ, I know this

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<v Speaker 1>articles about science, but you know me, so eventually it's

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<v Speaker 1>going to also end up about politics. Do you think

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<v Speaker 1>that there's an actual move to make science more dismissed?

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<v Speaker 1>Is that something that we see in leadership in some places,

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<v Speaker 1>wanting science to be something that people don't learn much

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<v Speaker 1>of so that they can be taken advantage of and

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<v Speaker 1>being fed an easy story.

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<v Speaker 2>You can absolutely see this both in politics and in religion.

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<v Speaker 2>I have to say that equally because we saw it

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<v Speaker 2>in you know, twenty sixteen. I was actually involved in

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<v Speaker 2>the March for Science, which was because of all the

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<v Speaker 2>anti science moves that were being made by unnamed politicians

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<v Speaker 2>at the time, and so we wanted to help educate

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<v Speaker 2>people on topics, you know, medical science and the issues

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<v Speaker 2>of the environment. And when it comes to the other

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<v Speaker 2>side to religion, then you have all of these incredibly

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<v Speaker 2>inaccurate things being talked to children from from the Bible.

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<v Speaker 2>So they learn all these different facts that are equally

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<v Speaker 2>scientific and anti scientific, and they value them at the

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<v Speaker 2>same level, like I don't know, like you need water

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<v Speaker 2>to survive and then Jesus welcome water. Right, So kids

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<v Speaker 2>grow up learning that type of science and thinking, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>it's all true. And so I think that yeah, ultimately

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<v Speaker 2>we need we need to do better at teaching everybody,

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<v Speaker 2>uh how how to understand science.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that that's part of what we see when

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<v Speaker 1>we see this move to get the Bible in the classrooms,

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<v Speaker 1>and they say every classroom they want to mix up

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<v Speaker 1>that science belief with you know, Jesus, magic water and

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<v Speaker 1>the wine or whatever else. And then it creates a

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<v Speaker 1>god ability factor that I do think is dangerous and

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<v Speaker 1>goes definitely to the heart of making it easy for

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<v Speaker 1>people to believe they know all the facts. A CARO,

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<v Speaker 1>I just wonder, is there anything you wanted to close

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<v Speaker 1>out with.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, I don't think so because I don't want

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<v Speaker 3>to have the final word on this matter, because I

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<v Speaker 3>want to stay open and stay curious, and I don't

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<v Speaker 3>think I have all the facts yet. But I was

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<v Speaker 3>enjoying the conversation and I hope that we get to

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<v Speaker 3>have more.

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<v Speaker 1>Well that's good because I don't really want you to

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<v Speaker 1>have it anyway, So a j you.

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<v Speaker 2>And I will have the last word. I would say

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<v Speaker 2>that speaking of curiosity, yeah, curiosity, epistemology, critical thinkingskepticism, these

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<v Speaker 2>are all factors and skills that we need to learn

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<v Speaker 2>and that can lead us to having more honest and

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<v Speaker 2>unbiased conversations that results in less misunderstandings disagreements, and that

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<v Speaker 2>we can help to further our society.

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<v Speaker 1>I have to say that I'm hopeful that Lucifer here

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<v Speaker 1>gave us good advice. But you know, after all, should

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<v Speaker 1>we take Lucifer's word? I think so. I don't know

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<v Speaker 1>about you, but what I do know is that you

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<v Speaker 1>are absolutely