WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:06.679 Hi, this is Michael Connolly with part two of our 2 00:00:06.799 --> 00:00:12.240 roundtable discussion. This is Killer in the Code Solving the Black, 3 00:00:12.359 --> 00:00:16.480 Dahia and Zodiac cases. All right, we're gonna get back 4 00:00:16.519 --> 00:00:20.280 to the questions. Do you think it's possible that other 5 00:00:20.559 --> 00:00:25.280 unsolved cold cases in Chicago, Kansas, Atlanta, Arizona, et cetera, 6 00:00:26.039 --> 00:00:28.920 could have been Margolis as well? And the list of 7 00:00:28.960 --> 00:00:34.159 those cities are places we have traced Marvin Margolis or 8 00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:38.359 Merrill or under his other names. Places he didn't stay 9 00:00:38.399 --> 00:00:41.520 a long time other than Chicago, where he grew up. 10 00:00:42.600 --> 00:00:44.679 But this was a guy who seemed to always be 11 00:00:45.000 --> 00:00:49.280 moving until he came back to California. But anyway, obscuring 12 00:00:49.280 --> 00:00:53.119 the question, I remember early on in a discussion I 13 00:00:53.159 --> 00:00:59.679 had with you, Mitzie Roberts, that the killing of the 14 00:00:59.719 --> 00:01:05.079 Black was so brutal, so calculated. He said, it would 15 00:01:05.079 --> 00:01:08.000 be surprised if this person, if this was like a 16 00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:13.319 single case, that the killer this was his only murder anyway, 17 00:01:13.400 --> 00:01:15.519 So I don't know who wants to start with that, 18 00:01:16.359 --> 00:01:18.760 but it's a very general question. 19 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:24.439 Well, just as an investigator, and when you're looking at 20 00:01:24.439 --> 00:01:28.560 somebody that is killed, what we believe is repeatedly in 21 00:01:28.599 --> 00:01:35.480 different locations within California as far north as the Bay Area, 22 00:01:36.079 --> 00:01:41.719 Los Angeles. I feel Oceanside is very very likely his 23 00:01:42.040 --> 00:01:46.959 I feel that the Riverside case of Sherry Joe Bates 24 00:01:47.040 --> 00:01:49.680 is probably a very likely case based on the letter 25 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:54.959 that was received. So it would not surprise me that 26 00:01:55.079 --> 00:01:58.280 anywhere he's gone. He started killing it roughly twenty one 27 00:01:59.040 --> 00:02:03.480 in nineteen forty Heaven with Elizabeth Short, so he began 28 00:02:03.519 --> 00:02:07.359 at a fairly young age, and then in the early 29 00:02:07.400 --> 00:02:11.120 forties he was the Zodiac case. So anywhere in between 30 00:02:11.240 --> 00:02:15.879 or even after wouldn't surprise me if he was in 31 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:21.000 locations that had murders, not necessarily the same mos, but 32 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:25.039 really any because he was evolving during this whole period 33 00:02:25.080 --> 00:02:28.719 of time. If they couldn't connect other cases to him 34 00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:30.080 wherever he lived. 35 00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:33.759 In the serial cases that serial killer cases that I've identified, 36 00:02:34.159 --> 00:02:34.840 and if. 37 00:02:34.639 --> 00:02:38.680 You believe that Marvin Margolis. 38 00:02:38.039 --> 00:02:40.159 Is the suspect here, which I do, and if you 39 00:02:40.199 --> 00:02:43.280 believe he's the Zodiac, which I do, these type of 40 00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:48.520 perpetrators don't stop usually, you know, they can't take a 41 00:02:48.560 --> 00:02:52.840 break for different reasons and things like that. But for 42 00:02:52.960 --> 00:02:57.840 somebody like him that's mobile and moving around what would 43 00:02:57.879 --> 00:03:01.680 drive them to stop. If you believe that he is 44 00:03:01.719 --> 00:03:06.360 a suspect in these cases, then it would be smart 45 00:03:06.879 --> 00:03:11.479 to trace where he's lived, where he's been, and to 46 00:03:11.560 --> 00:03:14.639 look into unsolved murders there. I don't know enough about 47 00:03:14.759 --> 00:03:19.280 the famous unsolved with the key names, the Ellipstick murders 48 00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:20.400 and the Torso murders. 49 00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:23.159 I don't know about enough about those to say look 50 00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:23.759 into those. 51 00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:28.199 But if you have a killer that goes from place 52 00:03:28.280 --> 00:03:32.319 to place to place to place, and you're convinced that 53 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:36.319 he's killed in one place, it's just smart detective work 54 00:03:36.360 --> 00:03:39.280 to look into can he have killed, would he have 55 00:03:39.400 --> 00:03:41.719 killed in another place? And to compare him against some 56 00:03:41.759 --> 00:03:44.000 of your cold cases, and. 57 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:47.000 That Mitchy and I did that on another case that 58 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:49.360 was at the end of my career with the guy 59 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:52.280 that is the most prolific serial killer in US history, 60 00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:56.000 Sam Wittle. We traveled the country pretty much for the 61 00:03:56.080 --> 00:04:01.719 last year my career, connecting him to other murders, and 62 00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:06.280 I mean all over multiple states, five six, seven, eight 63 00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:09.520 states we were in And it's just part of the 64 00:04:09.560 --> 00:04:14.840 process of what you do. And obviously Meryl Margol was 65 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:21.279 like killing the first one that we know of Anyway, 66 00:04:21.319 --> 00:04:26.120 Elizabeth Short was a very personal murder, and so I 67 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:30.480 can understand how that can happen without necessarily loving murder. 68 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:35.600 It was, you know, it was a payback. He was jolted, humiliated, 69 00:04:35.639 --> 00:04:37.959 and he wanted to the same to her. But once 70 00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:41.240 you get into the other killings where there's no direct 71 00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:45.279 personal motive, random people and lover's lanes, a cab driver 72 00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:50.759 in San Francisco, a cab driver in Oceanside, that shows 73 00:04:50.759 --> 00:04:53.160 that he enjoyed killing, and so he's not going to 74 00:04:53.240 --> 00:04:57.079 stop enjoying killing when he's living in Kansas or Chicago 75 00:04:57.319 --> 00:05:01.680 or Georgia. It's going to go on if you felt 76 00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:03.680 like the opportunity. The only thing I would say is 77 00:05:03.720 --> 00:05:07.439 that at some point age factors does factor in. 78 00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:09.959 And I can't say what age, but. 79 00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:15.319 Age does factor in and does cause people to eventually stop. 80 00:05:16.720 --> 00:05:19.720 Next question is you say some members of the family 81 00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:23.319 have cooperated with you and turned over the sketch as 82 00:05:23.319 --> 00:05:27.000 well as two boxes of property and documents. Is there 83 00:05:27.040 --> 00:05:33.399 any evidence connecting to the murders found in those belongings, 84 00:05:33.680 --> 00:05:35.680 such as weapons or trophies. 85 00:05:36.600 --> 00:05:42.120 Well, of course the sketch, I mean, which Michael and 86 00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:45.000 I took that sketch that was sent to us and 87 00:05:45.079 --> 00:05:50.720 had it analyzed by an expert that was not familiar 88 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:53.439 with this case or what we've been doing, and verified 89 00:05:53.480 --> 00:05:57.120 that hidden the hidden word zodiac in the shading or 90 00:05:57.160 --> 00:05:59.519 at least some of the letters that he did see 91 00:05:59.519 --> 00:05:59.920 show up. 92 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:03.040 And so yes, in that sense that was there. 93 00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:05.480 I'm not sure about the I think some of the 94 00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:09.360 handwriting exhibits and a lot of stuff is just corroborating evidence. 95 00:06:09.399 --> 00:06:12.480 It's not like DNA on knives or anything like that. 96 00:06:12.600 --> 00:06:18.759 It's eyeglass prescriptions and knowing that the zodiac wore eyeglasses 97 00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:27.040 and handwriting exemplars that have been compared to the letters 98 00:06:27.079 --> 00:06:28.720 and have matched things like that. 99 00:06:29.560 --> 00:06:33.319 Since we were talking about the things that family turned 100 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:36.680 over to us, let's stay on that for a minute. 101 00:06:37.279 --> 00:06:43.720 With the last episode, chapter six, we talked about Marvin 102 00:06:43.959 --> 00:06:49.240 Margolis's report card from USC and we put it on 103 00:06:49.319 --> 00:06:53.680 the website, and readers have pointed out that that report 104 00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:57.519 card shows a different spelling for his net last name. 105 00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:01.800 It's and middle name. It's the work cards from Marvin 106 00:07:02.079 --> 00:07:11.000 Henry Margolie's not Marvin Skipton Margolis. And the question is, 107 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:13.839 how do you know you don't have the grades for 108 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:18.879 someone else. And I'll start us off by just saying 109 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:21.959 that report card that we put on the website came 110 00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:29.680 from Marvin Merrell's property turned over to us by his family. 111 00:07:30.199 --> 00:07:33.839 So it's a I think it's a clear or you guys, 112 00:07:33.839 --> 00:07:36.519 if you're the investigators taken from there. To me, it's 113 00:07:36.560 --> 00:07:42.319 a clear indication that he was engaged in manipulating his identity. 114 00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:46.120 I have that report card in the boxes that I 115 00:07:46.120 --> 00:07:48.959 have with me that we're turning back over to the 116 00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:54.360 family tomorrow, And yeah, what are the chances that there's 117 00:07:54.439 --> 00:07:58.920 some differences from a person that's gone through his life 118 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:02.680 changing name and it's a close name. What's the chance 119 00:08:02.800 --> 00:08:04.720 is it's going to be did he pick up the 120 00:08:04.720 --> 00:08:07.639 wrong report card, you know, and just happened to be 121 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:10.839 very close to his I doubt it's it's just another 122 00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:16.560 indication that he's using, for whatever reason, one more alias, 123 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:19.040 and it's really a pretty close name obviously. 124 00:08:19.560 --> 00:08:19.759 Yeah. 125 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:22.319 And I just like when you get like that that's 126 00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:25.920 given from the family like that, there's no there's no 127 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:30.439 better source to give us something like that than it 128 00:08:30.519 --> 00:08:33.720 came from the person who's report card it is. I mean, 129 00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:37.840 I would trust that even more than the academic institution 130 00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:42.240 only because they have no way to verify the report 131 00:08:42.279 --> 00:08:46.320 card they're giving us is the same individual who were investigating. 132 00:08:46.639 --> 00:08:50.000 But even more than that, I even when you're going 133 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:54.440 back through the grand jury investigation, they got his name wrong. 134 00:08:54.759 --> 00:08:57.360 They're in testimony and spelled it wrong. And is that 135 00:08:57.440 --> 00:09:01.080 because that's the information they had that he gave them. 136 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:03.200 Is the way he spelled it or they just spelled 137 00:09:03.200 --> 00:09:03.639 it wrong. 138 00:09:04.200 --> 00:09:07.759 So that's just a common theme throughout this investigation that 139 00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:11.759 there are different names being used, different spellings, different middle names, 140 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:16.080 and it's part of his signature, part of the way 141 00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:17.919 he plays the game. 142 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:24.120 What's interesting in the reader listener pointed out was if 143 00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:26.480 you look at this thing, it appears that he may 144 00:09:26.519 --> 00:09:30.639 have taken classes in the year of fifty two to 145 00:09:30.759 --> 00:09:36.279 fifty three if we read this correctly, and that question 146 00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:38.840 says it was there a chance he came back to 147 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:41.600 la because we know we can put him in Chicago. 148 00:09:42.200 --> 00:09:45.240 He was actually prosecuted for a crime during this period. 149 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:48.960 But he's also we've also established that he moves around 150 00:09:49.039 --> 00:09:51.639 and his family doesn't know where he is a lot. 151 00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:55.759 What do we take from that little notation? It looks 152 00:09:55.840 --> 00:10:01.759 like two classes taken between fifty two and fifty four. 153 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:04.080 Could he have come back to try to finish his 154 00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:05.480 pharmaceutical degree. 155 00:10:06.519 --> 00:10:09.759 Well, we know that his eldest daughter was born in 156 00:10:09.879 --> 00:10:15.919 Chicago in nineteen fifty two. If I look at my records, 157 00:10:15.960 --> 00:10:17.759 have to verify that. I think it's nineteen fifty two, 158 00:10:17.960 --> 00:10:19.000 early February. 159 00:10:19.039 --> 00:10:22.039 I believe that. Being said, however, we do know that 160 00:10:22.039 --> 00:10:22.679 there's window there. 161 00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:24.240 We can't account for him up until the end of 162 00:10:24.279 --> 00:10:26.559 fifty three where he's arrested for a cong game for 163 00:10:26.679 --> 00:10:31.039 doing contracts that are blank and filling in additional information. 164 00:10:30.559 --> 00:10:31.399 That numbers right. 165 00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:32.799 So that's in Chicago. 166 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:35.360 Dad's in Chicago. So we got a buffer there of 167 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:37.159 about a year and a half that we can't account for. 168 00:10:37.639 --> 00:10:40.759 So I'm not saying that he did. What I'm saying, though, 169 00:10:40.799 --> 00:10:44.679 is there's an open opportunity there unless we find something 170 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:47.440 else that we can use to place him somewhere other 171 00:10:47.519 --> 00:10:48.720 than the USC. 172 00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:52.000 Okay, we seem to be talking about his family and 173 00:10:52.039 --> 00:10:56.879 how a few of them have cooperated with us, mostly 174 00:10:56.919 --> 00:10:59.080 through well, actually all three of you have talked to 175 00:10:59.159 --> 00:11:02.200 family members. I have talked to family members. Is there 176 00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:07.360 anyone in the family who is saying they agree with us, 177 00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:10.559 or they're saying this explains a lot, or there are 178 00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:13.840 people that are saying, there's no way this was that 179 00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:19.799 our father was that this killer the serial killer. 180 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:22.519 I've experienced both firsthand. 181 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:24.799 I've got people like the son that says, all, this 182 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:27.759 can't be my father in no way. However, he is 183 00:11:27.799 --> 00:11:30.279 shifted from one side to the other since I've had 184 00:11:30.320 --> 00:11:32.960 the opportunity to speak with him. And then we have 185 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:36.799 other members that we've I've spoken to directly three that 186 00:11:36.840 --> 00:11:41.559 have stated that they've found this very likely or possible 187 00:11:41.799 --> 00:11:43.799 that he is who we believe he is. 188 00:11:45.000 --> 00:11:47.919 The family members that I've spoke to, I've only spoken 189 00:11:47.960 --> 00:11:54.279 to two. There's more of a curiosity and a and 190 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:59.639 a willingness to cooperate, cooperate because they believe that it's 191 00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:06.679 an in case and that any surviving family members deserve answers, 192 00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:09.600 whether that be that Marvin is the guy or is not. 193 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:13.879 And they also want to participate because we've told them that. 194 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:19.279 This could give you answers either way. We're not, you know, 195 00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:19.720 we don't. 196 00:12:19.759 --> 00:12:23.000 We're definitely not trying to fabricate a case on anybody. 197 00:12:23.480 --> 00:12:26.320 The evidence is going to point where they evidence points 198 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:29.440 and it could point to this is the wrong guy, 199 00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:33.480 and then that is something that they'd want to know too. 200 00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:37.840 And so I haven't really gotten an opinion one way 201 00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:38.360 or the other. 202 00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:45.840 We've gotten some information about Margolis's background, about his temper, 203 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:50.440 about the way he treated the family. That the fact 204 00:12:50.519 --> 00:12:55.200 that they're willing to give items to us that could 205 00:12:55.200 --> 00:13:00.720 be of evidence of evidentiary value at least says to 206 00:13:00.759 --> 00:13:04.039 me that they're open to the possibility that this that 207 00:13:04.080 --> 00:13:08.519 he that he could be capable of doing something like this. 208 00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:10.679 Because I know if somebody came to me and said, 209 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:12.919 you think your father's a murderer and we want you 210 00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:16.519 to give us any information that you may have, I'd 211 00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:19.759 be like, there's no way, you know, I don't have anything. 212 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:21.840 I don't have anything because there's no way that this 213 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:24.840 my father could have been this, or or if my 214 00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:27.759 father had stuff and I always had a suspicion in 215 00:13:27.759 --> 00:13:30.559 my mind that he could be capable, then I would 216 00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:30.960 give that. 217 00:13:31.080 --> 00:13:33.080 So the fact that they gave. 218 00:13:32.919 --> 00:13:38.840 Us items to be verified leads me to believe that 219 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:41.080 it's a possibility in their mind. 220 00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:46.840 Okay, yeah, that it wouldn't be shocking. Yeah, if if 221 00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:51.279 it the evidence revealed that this is true, it would 222 00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:53.639 not be shocking based on his behavior. 223 00:13:55.039 --> 00:13:58.000 So that leads to one of the questions that we've 224 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:02.559 gotten several of out of the proximity question, how are 225 00:14:02.600 --> 00:14:08.679 we putting him in proximity to the Zodiac killings? What 226 00:14:08.840 --> 00:14:12.960 is the let's see where? What is the evidence that 227 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:15.519 he lived or had a place in the Bay area 228 00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:19.000 during the Zodiac murder spree? Is the exact question. 229 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:24.879 We do know there was documentation, Alex found it, and 230 00:14:24.919 --> 00:14:29.840 I've driven by the house that he had showed he 231 00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:33.279 lived at in the late sixties, early seventies and then 232 00:14:33.320 --> 00:14:36.399 again in the late seventies and early eighties, same location. 233 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:41.000 We know he worked at Intel. Back then, they didn't 234 00:14:41.080 --> 00:14:46.080 have this let's work from home kind of situation and 235 00:14:46.279 --> 00:14:50.399 telecommuting and all this kind of stuff. You showed up 236 00:14:50.440 --> 00:14:53.600 in the office unless you were a travel kind of person. 237 00:14:53.960 --> 00:14:57.159 And the other thing, it's fifty five years later. You're 238 00:14:57.159 --> 00:15:00.840 not going to be able to put somebody in a 239 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:05.360 specific place unless there's something very unique that happened, like 240 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:08.879 an arrest or something like that. On a day by day, 241 00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:11.879 week by week, even a month by month basis, we don't. 242 00:15:12.080 --> 00:15:14.600 We do know he has connections to the Bay Area. 243 00:15:15.639 --> 00:15:17.960 And then the other one again, Mike, you just found 244 00:15:17.960 --> 00:15:21.120 his son went to school up there. Now did he 245 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:23.080 live with his son at that point or did he 246 00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:26.519 visit his son? Maybe, but we know that he had 247 00:15:26.559 --> 00:15:28.960 a reason to be up in the area during that 248 00:15:29.039 --> 00:15:33.039 period of time. And another thing is there wouldn't be 249 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:35.519 concern about the lack of middle put. 250 00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:36.320 Him in the area. 251 00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:40.399 If this was a DNA hit or a fingerprint match, 252 00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:43.840 it wouldn't matter where he lived anywhere in the world. 253 00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:46.600 You're going to say, Okay, you're gonna do You're going 254 00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:49.799 to check the DNA and sometimes believe it or not. 255 00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:53.600 But from a detective standpoint and from a prosecutor standpoint, 256 00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:58.600 and from a legal standpoint, circumstantial evidence, depending on how 257 00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:04.519 substantial it is, can be just as identifying as DNA 258 00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:07.360 or a fingerprint. And people might look at that and 259 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:09.799 shake their head and they don't understand it. But this 260 00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:15.600 world has gotten so dependent on court using DNA and science. 261 00:16:16.240 --> 00:16:20.000 Sometimes you revert back to circumstantial evidence. It's very legal. 262 00:16:20.360 --> 00:16:24.440 There's convictions based on nothing but circumstantial evidence all the time. 263 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:27.759 And so the fact that we couldn't put him in 264 00:16:27.799 --> 00:16:31.519 the Bay Area on a regular basis. Isn't that concerning 265 00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:35.559 to me? The other evidence that we have is overwhelming, 266 00:16:35.720 --> 00:16:40.120 and I keep saying overwhelming. It's overwhelming. And I was 267 00:16:40.120 --> 00:16:42.720 at an event the other day, unfortunately it was a 268 00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:46.120 celebration of life, and there were many das there that 269 00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:49.200 had been listening to this podcast that are blown away 270 00:16:49.679 --> 00:16:52.000 by how. 271 00:16:51.080 --> 00:16:52.519 Convincing the evidence is. 272 00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:57.679 And I know Mitzi and I and my work partner 273 00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:02.840 Dave Trismont, we wouldn't have entertained moving into this unless 274 00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:05.599 we totally believed it. We're not going to get involved 275 00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:09.759 in something that was a hair brain scheme, and we've cooperated. 276 00:17:09.799 --> 00:17:12.240 We give media interviews, and I should say there was 277 00:17:12.279 --> 00:17:15.640 one particular writer who said that I went to Michael 278 00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:20.759 Conley with a far fetched theory. This guy must not 279 00:17:20.920 --> 00:17:23.799 know anything about crime if he considered this a far 280 00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:28.759 fetched theory, because prosecutors and people in investigated positions, Mitzi, 281 00:17:28.839 --> 00:17:32.720 me and Dave tresmontin say it's overwhelming evidence. So the 282 00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:35.039 far fetched stuff, I don't know if he just had 283 00:17:35.079 --> 00:17:37.599 a bone to pick with this, or wanted to be 284 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:43.480 personally abrasive and throw a lot of landmines toward us, 285 00:17:43.559 --> 00:17:46.000 or what, But the fact that he said it's a 286 00:17:46.039 --> 00:17:47.880 far fetched game is ridiculous. 287 00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:53.319 That's what's so irritating about that is that people expect 288 00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:59.039 us as investigators to throw away the entire theory or 289 00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:04.359 the entire game case against Margolis because we can't prove 290 00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:07.279 he was in San Jose. He can't be the Zodiac 291 00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:11.279 because we can't prove he lived in San Jose. So 292 00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:16.880 everything else that we have proven, the cryptology and you know, 293 00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:19.200 all the other things that we have, we're just supposed 294 00:18:19.240 --> 00:18:23.759 to put that aside because one or two things we 295 00:18:23.799 --> 00:18:26.440 don't have definitive answers, or we can't prove that he 296 00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:30.599 was positive, you know, that his alibi, that he didn't 297 00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:33.240 have an alibi, So we're just supposed to throw away 298 00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:36.440 all the other evidence. And that is just not what 299 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:37.720 detectives do. 300 00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:42.920 So it's quite irritating on some levels when that happens. 301 00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:47.480 And even completed cases and myths will tell me the 302 00:18:47.480 --> 00:18:50.640 same thing or tell you the same thing. You're never 303 00:18:50.680 --> 00:18:53.200 going to get an answer to every question you want. 304 00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:58.279 Even when there's admissions or confessions or convictions, there are 305 00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:04.480 always unknown things because in a confession, oftentimes suspects will 306 00:19:04.519 --> 00:19:09.559 admit things because they know it's overwhelming evidence. But they 307 00:19:09.640 --> 00:19:14.839 always will mitigate some aspects or leave out parts, or 308 00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:20.359 not remember certain parts because to admit certain things make 309 00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:25.119 it tough because it's very very bad behavior. They mitigate 310 00:19:25.160 --> 00:19:27.799 it to be seen in the best light possible that 311 00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:31.160 they think they can get away with. And so there 312 00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:32.680 are going to be things in we're not going to 313 00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:38.000 have answers to. But overall it's a very very strong case. 314 00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:41.039 Let me add one more piece, guys. So if we 315 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:42.160 fast forward. 316 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:45.039 From sixty nine to seventy to seventy eight, when the 317 00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:49.240 son who said he never resided in San Jose, and 318 00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:52.960 we know I knew Michael's independent researcher discovered that the 319 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:55.920 Sun was in high school in San Jose actually at 320 00:19:55.920 --> 00:19:58.279 that time, so at the time that they moved there, 321 00:19:58.319 --> 00:19:59.559 and this is documented. 322 00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:01.599 For anybody to see online if you know how to research. 323 00:20:01.880 --> 00:20:04.640 At the exact moment that Martin Margos can be placed 324 00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:08.440 in San Jose in nineteen seventy eight. Zodiac reappears and 325 00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:11.000 emails in April Letter April twenty fourth, ninety seventy eight. 326 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:16.920 So somebody mentioned hair brained and so this next question 327 00:20:17.079 --> 00:20:22.119 was first directed to me but handed off to Mitzi 328 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:28.079 after I make but it says, Connelly, you once endorsed 329 00:20:28.079 --> 00:20:31.759 the theory that George Hodell was the Black Dalia Avenger. 330 00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:34.200 What made you change your mind? And why should we 331 00:20:34.279 --> 00:20:38.160 believe you? Now? What that listener is referencing is that 332 00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:42.559 I blurbed, which is I endorsed a book called Black 333 00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:47.240 Dalua Avenger that fingered George Hodell as the killer of 334 00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:51.400 Elizabeth Short and he is on the top suspect's list. 335 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:54.000 By the way, the book was written by Hodell's son, 336 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:59.400 Steve Hodell, who was formerly an LAPD homicide investigator, which 337 00:20:59.480 --> 00:21:02.400 was one of the reasons I felt compelled to read 338 00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:05.519 it and then endorse it. And I read that book 339 00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:09.440 knowing very little about the case, and I found it convincing. 340 00:21:09.799 --> 00:21:14.000 And you know, what's the harm in saying I agree? 341 00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:16.880 I think I even said case closed or something like that. 342 00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:20.079 I can't remember exactly what I said in endorsing that book, 343 00:21:20.359 --> 00:21:23.000 but I did live to regret this, and I've made 344 00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:25.559 my maya copa in the very first episode I think 345 00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:33.119 of this podcast. And because the newly formed cold Cation 346 00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:37.519 it investigated the claims in that book and their report 347 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:43.079 was that that is a flawed investigation, and that it's 348 00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:46.519 a good theory, but there's no evidence that Hodell was 349 00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:49.079 the killer. And I think Rick and Mitzi you may 350 00:21:49.079 --> 00:21:51.640 have had part in that investigation or aware of it, 351 00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:54.400 or have reports. So if one of you wants to 352 00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:58.480 bail me out here, please do. Yeah. 353 00:21:58.519 --> 00:22:03.799 I think it's very easy and is exactly what's different 354 00:22:03.799 --> 00:22:07.240 in what we're doing here is that Hoodell's theory is 355 00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:10.480 a great theory, and it's supported by some of the 356 00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:13.599 facts in the case. In that George Hodell there was 357 00:22:13.720 --> 00:22:14.960 wiretaps into him. 358 00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:17.279 He you know, he was a doctor. 359 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:20.559 There's things that make you look at him as a 360 00:22:20.599 --> 00:22:23.799 suspect and buy into him as a suspect. 361 00:22:23.799 --> 00:22:26.160 That it's a good theory in the case. 362 00:22:26.519 --> 00:22:29.440 But there were a lot of good theories, and so 363 00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:33.039 I can see how somebody on the outsides can can 364 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:36.720 read that book and buy into it. I mean, there's 365 00:22:36.759 --> 00:22:41.799 still many many people that believe. You know, I get 366 00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:42.559 that question a lot. 367 00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:44.920 Oh that's all. Isn't it wasn't it? That wasn't it 368 00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:49.359 that detective's father, wasn't it that doctor? But as Michael. 369 00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:52.799 Mentioned, because the theory did look so good, that's what 370 00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:57.039 investigators do we then go in and fact check it 371 00:22:57.119 --> 00:22:59.920 for evidentiary value. And a lot of the stuff that 372 00:23:00.920 --> 00:23:04.720 Steve Odell wrote in that first book just was not accurate. 373 00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:09.000 It was not true. It was actually disproven. So that 374 00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:13.240 is hindsight. That is information that Michael didn't have and 375 00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:15.480 that the listeners and the readers didn't have at the 376 00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:20.400 time that we were able to disprove. And I think 377 00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:23.839 that flip side is why when it came to this 378 00:23:23.960 --> 00:23:27.599 investigation we were so I was so skeptical because I 379 00:23:28.039 --> 00:23:30.160 think I even mentioned to Michael, I don't want to 380 00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:32.920 be the person that gets stuck in something like that 381 00:23:32.920 --> 00:23:36.039 that has to turn around five years from now and say, yeah, 382 00:23:36.200 --> 00:23:37.039 I got that wrong. 383 00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:40.839 And so is why we are doing that. We are 384 00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:42.440 being upfront. 385 00:23:42.039 --> 00:23:45.920 With the listeners and with the people with the when 386 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:49.799 we're interviewed on these stories. Is if we have a 387 00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:53.640 case where the evidence doesn't fit or we're unsure of 388 00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:55.880 the evidence, we have double checked it. 389 00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:57.240 We have triple checked. 390 00:23:56.920 --> 00:24:00.000 It by independent experts and came up with the same 391 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:04.079 information that Alex has, which makes it makes it more 392 00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:06.880 viable as evidence in the case. 393 00:24:08.119 --> 00:24:11.680 Yeah, in my perspective on the Hodel that was ordered 394 00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:14.640 by an assistant Chief of police that the cold case 395 00:24:14.759 --> 00:24:21.400 unit looked through Hodell's claims in his book and make 396 00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:25.440 a determination if it is it legitimate, is it not legitimate, 397 00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:30.559 or in between somewhere. My part of that was to 398 00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:33.920 look at an array of other women in the LA 399 00:24:34.039 --> 00:24:38.759 area during the late forties and early fifties that Steve 400 00:24:39.680 --> 00:24:42.599 claimed Steve Hodell claimed. 401 00:24:43.960 --> 00:24:45.519