WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:03.240 My daughter Ellie had this ankle pain and we went 2 00:00:03.279 --> 00:00:06.599 to see VGI orthopedics that they actually picked up on 3 00:00:06.639 --> 00:00:10.640 her fatigue issues, so they brought in a rheumatologist and 4 00:00:11.119 --> 00:00:14.439 just a few small tests, they realized that Ellie was sediac. 5 00:00:15.160 --> 00:00:18.359 So what was brilliant was that Vhi had a pediatric 6 00:00:18.399 --> 00:00:21.120 dietitian ready to help manage her diet. 7 00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:28.239 Really felt seamless, Vhgi, because your health means everything. 8 00:00:30.199 --> 00:00:33.200 Every neighbor got definite lavor. 9 00:00:33.799 --> 00:00:38.399 Did somebody say jasty? Eurergency? You had twenty three ephas 10 00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:43.920 extended family. Did you get a Rewinde's coffee roll the 11 00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:51.439 day say the harm it's major sawyah, the color reinforcement's foil. 12 00:00:51.679 --> 00:00:53.799 Whoever you are, whatever your flavor. 13 00:00:53.960 --> 00:00:59.439 Every neighbor deaf flavor, somebody's say jasty. 14 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:04.359 Take a second. Notice how you're moving, turning the steering wheel, 15 00:01:04.640 --> 00:01:08.079 holding your baby, running on the treadmill, kicking the ball. 16 00:01:08.439 --> 00:01:11.920 Your lungs are expanding, your heart beating. Life is full 17 00:01:11.959 --> 00:01:14.519 of movement, and you are full of life from big 18 00:01:14.519 --> 00:01:18.799 to small. Movement demands and deserves protein. Avon more protein, milk, 19 00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:23.879 deliciously fresh support for every move Avon Moore make every day. 20 00:01:24.079 --> 00:01:27.480 This good protein supports the maintenance of muscle mass enjoys 21 00:01:27.519 --> 00:01:30.359 part of a varied and balanced diet and healthy lifestyle. 22 00:01:32.319 --> 00:01:36.000 Meaning a live man like this man letting butterfly, flapping 23 00:01:36.040 --> 00:01:38.159 his wing big down in on force. Man, it gonna 24 00:01:38.159 --> 00:01:41.040 cause a tree fall, letting five thousand mile away. 25 00:01:41.120 --> 00:01:41.280 Man. 26 00:01:41.760 --> 00:01:42.920 Nobody see nobody else. 27 00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:49.200 And when you see that, you don't need no man 28 00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:53.200 you don't like, you call another story and you get back. 29 00:01:53.239 --> 00:01:54.439 That's the point. 30 00:01:55.159 --> 00:01:56.400 Got black a dag on a pan on? 31 00:02:05.719 --> 00:02:08.039 All right, Sean Griffith, Welcome to the Jay Burdon Show. 32 00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:10.400 How you doing man, I'm doing great. Thanks so much 33 00:02:10.439 --> 00:02:10.960 for having me. 34 00:02:11.919 --> 00:02:17.159 Yeah, I'm excited to have you on. It's funny you 35 00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:21.319 sent me a pre production version of this piece, and 36 00:02:21.360 --> 00:02:26.080 then very shortly afterwards I saw it again in Chronicles, 37 00:02:26.080 --> 00:02:29.039 which is a magazine I read quite regularly. And so 38 00:02:29.319 --> 00:02:32.560 before we get into the article you've read, who are 39 00:02:32.599 --> 00:02:34.479 you and what do you do well? 40 00:02:35.319 --> 00:02:38.159 I'm a law professor. I'm a law professor at Fordham 41 00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:40.319 Law School in New York City. I've been a law 42 00:02:40.360 --> 00:02:43.680 professor for something like twenty five years. My area is 43 00:02:43.719 --> 00:02:48.199 corporate law, which isn't as political or at least didn't 44 00:02:48.280 --> 00:02:50.520 used to be as political as some other areas of 45 00:02:50.560 --> 00:02:53.879 the law, but these days it is, and the politics 46 00:02:54.039 --> 00:03:00.000 enters through this idea of ESG or environmental social governance 47 00:03:00.520 --> 00:03:03.400 and what some people call the woke corporation. And so 48 00:03:03.439 --> 00:03:05.919 the essay that I sent to you is an attempt 49 00:03:05.960 --> 00:03:11.000 to explain the persistence of ESG and corporate wokeism. 50 00:03:11.319 --> 00:03:11.520 Yeah. 51 00:03:11.560 --> 00:03:14.919 It's an interesting angle because a lot of people who 52 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:20.800 I don't particularly enjoy define themselves in opposition to woke 53 00:03:21.479 --> 00:03:24.159 You see, obviously the woke left, but also this new 54 00:03:24.199 --> 00:03:29.000 emergent phrase, the woke right, and their conception is that wokeness, 55 00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:32.280 whatever you want to call it, is inherently Marxist. They 56 00:03:32.280 --> 00:03:35.840 are one and the same. And again sort of playing 57 00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:40.919 Desil Devil's advocate here, If communism and wokeness are synonymous, 58 00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:45.240 how can a corporate corporation corporate corporation, How can a 59 00:03:45.240 --> 00:03:46.800 big corporation go woke? 60 00:03:47.759 --> 00:03:48.039 Yeah? 61 00:03:48.120 --> 00:03:51.120 I think that's an interesting question. You know, I think 62 00:03:51.159 --> 00:03:54.639 that the question presents itself as a kind of a paradox. 63 00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:59.000 On the on the one hand, wokeism is persistent. Right, 64 00:03:59.039 --> 00:04:02.360 so we have a new administration, but we still the 65 00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:05.479 woke hasn't gone away, at least in the corporate world. 66 00:04:05.800 --> 00:04:08.240 I saw a statistic the other day that something like 67 00:04:08.599 --> 00:04:11.159 fifty or sixty percent of a fortune five hundred have 68 00:04:11.759 --> 00:04:15.879 board level reporting to their DEI departments. And there are 69 00:04:15.879 --> 00:04:18.279 all these big corporations that are you know, that are 70 00:04:18.360 --> 00:04:21.920 that are resisting the pushing to eliminate DEI. 71 00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:23.519 And they're hiring and promotion operations. 72 00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:28.040 And you can certainly see wocism still in some consumer brands, 73 00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:31.199 most most obviously maybe the NFL. So it seems like 74 00:04:31.199 --> 00:04:33.560 it's a persistent phenomenon. It's not just that it came 75 00:04:33.639 --> 00:04:36.079 up in the first place. But at the same time, 76 00:04:36.279 --> 00:04:39.399 it doesn't seem like it's entirely sincere. So when I 77 00:04:39.439 --> 00:04:42.720 talk two business people, CEOs, you know, they'll often say 78 00:04:42.759 --> 00:04:45.360 things like, oh, you know, I'm not very political. I 79 00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:48.879 don't consider myself ideological. It's not really who I am, 80 00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:50.600 you know. I'm just about doing the right thing for 81 00:04:50.639 --> 00:04:55.240 the corporation. Even when you talk to academics about ESG 82 00:04:55.399 --> 00:04:57.959 or woke corporatism, they're just like, Hey, isn't this just 83 00:04:58.079 --> 00:05:01.120 a some words that we have to say so that 84 00:05:01.160 --> 00:05:03.439 we can get back to business as usual And So 85 00:05:03.480 --> 00:05:05.319 that's kind of a paradox, right. You would think if 86 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:09.560 the thing was insincere, it wouldn't be persistent, or you 87 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:12.399 would think that if the thing was persistent, it couldn't 88 00:05:12.680 --> 00:05:14.399 it would have to be sincere. And it seems like 89 00:05:14.439 --> 00:05:17.920 those two things are butting up against each other. So 90 00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:20.360 the essay is really attempt to explain that paradox, and 91 00:05:20.680 --> 00:05:23.160 the way that I explain it is that wokeism is 92 00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:29.000 a form of managerialism. It's a necessary iteration of the 93 00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:32.199 current managerial elite. 94 00:05:32.480 --> 00:05:35.480 It's an interesting thing you point out because, look, I'm 95 00:05:35.519 --> 00:05:39.199 a full time internet person now, for whatever that's worth. 96 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:42.480 But I did work in the corporate world, and one 97 00:05:42.519 --> 00:05:44.240 of the things that was very striking to me is 98 00:05:44.279 --> 00:05:47.839 how often it's sort of the business equivalent of having 99 00:05:47.920 --> 00:05:52.160 kids to save the relationship, where it's something you pull 100 00:05:52.199 --> 00:05:54.879 out when things aren't going well. For instance, my last 101 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:58.279 real corporate job, the company ended up going under, but 102 00:05:59.000 --> 00:06:01.240 really about a month and a half before, when the 103 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:03.839 writing was on the wall, everyone on the sales side, 104 00:06:03.879 --> 00:06:05.959 which is where I worked, was painfully aware that we're 105 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:10.519 getting shell ACKed. And the big pivot was a pivot 106 00:06:10.600 --> 00:06:15.800 to diversity. We had hired this range of DEI consultants, 107 00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:19.240 and so I wonder if part of it is that 108 00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:25.519 it is DEI diversity. All of that has entered this 109 00:06:25.639 --> 00:06:29.279 level of best practices where this is simply things that 110 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:34.920 successful corporations do. We are not successful, we don't have this. 111 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:39.639 So clearly this is part of the transformation into a 112 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:43.199 successful business. Now, obviously you and I understand that that's 113 00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:45.800 not the case. But to me and I'm glad you 114 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:50.600 tied it to managerialism, it has become for managers, for 115 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:54.680 the people who direct almost every company. It's become one 116 00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:59.439 of those key performance indicators, right, those metrics that determine 117 00:06:59.720 --> 00:07:02.079 whether or a company is successful or not. So in 118 00:07:02.079 --> 00:07:04.519 the same way that no one really questions why we 119 00:07:04.600 --> 00:07:07.720 want to be more profitable this year than last. It's 120 00:07:07.800 --> 00:07:10.000 not quite at that level, but it's a similar level 121 00:07:10.040 --> 00:07:12.120 of sort of received wisdom. If you see what I'm 122 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:13.639 getting at, Sean, I do. 123 00:07:13.879 --> 00:07:14.879 I think you know. 124 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:18.079 Your point is that there are all these departments essentially 125 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:21.199 inside corporations that do wokeism. 126 00:07:21.959 --> 00:07:22.959 And that's true. 127 00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:26.240 It's basically ingrained as part of the corporate structure, and 128 00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:29.399 which explains to some degree why it's so hard to eradicate. 129 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:32.319 On the other hand, the managers, if they wanted to, 130 00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:34.920 the CEOs of the corporations that you're describing, could just 131 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:37.439 be like, well, we've got to cut costs. We've got 132 00:07:37.480 --> 00:07:39.240 to cut them somewhere. Let's cut them in the in 133 00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:42.399 the DEI department or whatever. And they seem not to 134 00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:45.519 do that. That seems to be a move that they're 135 00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:48.160 loath to do, and so there must be something there, right, 136 00:07:48.279 --> 00:07:51.720 There's something about how these things that seem like obvious 137 00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:54.680 things for the chopping block don't tend to go there, 138 00:07:54.680 --> 00:07:58.639 and I think that's in the nature of managerialism itself. 139 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:03.759 Yeah, I think that you're entirely right. And by the way, 140 00:08:04.279 --> 00:08:06.120 for those wondering, because I will always get comments on this. 141 00:08:06.279 --> 00:08:08.120 The reason you can see I'm looking at something in 142 00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:10.439 the other window. It's not me scrolling Twitter. It's me 143 00:08:10.759 --> 00:08:11.759 referencing the article. 144 00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:12.000 Right. 145 00:08:12.079 --> 00:08:14.480 I do actually do my homework every once in a while. 146 00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:22.319 But you're entirely correct there. You mentioned the history of managerialism, 147 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:25.839 and to me, I'm not nearly as well read on 148 00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:28.439 this subject as you are. But it goes back to 149 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:32.399 Burnham's The Managerial Revolution, and he talks about the transition 150 00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:36.120 from capitalism to managerialism. For those who aren't familiar, he 151 00:08:36.320 --> 00:08:40.000 was writing in the thirties talking about the death of capitalism, 152 00:08:40.360 --> 00:08:43.559 which involved the death of the capitalist. At that time, 153 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:45.679 there was a time where you could go to Ford 154 00:08:45.720 --> 00:08:49.840 Motor Company, walk up to the penthouse suite and there'd 155 00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:51.679 be a guy named Ford there who was in charge 156 00:08:51.720 --> 00:08:54.360 of it, sort of this baronial figure. It was almost 157 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:57.919 feudal arrangement, and that was replaced due to any number 158 00:08:57.960 --> 00:09:02.320 of financial or technical innovations with managers joint stock, you know, 159 00:09:02.399 --> 00:09:05.080 the idea that no one really owns the entirety of it, 160 00:09:05.159 --> 00:09:08.279 and so who runs it, well, these managers for hire, 161 00:09:08.919 --> 00:09:11.639 and what Burnham describes and again I think what you're 162 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:15.360 getting at there is that the system becomes self interested. 163 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:20.320 Managers are interested in themselves, interested in people like them, 164 00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:22.879 and the fact that you know, their sort of jobs 165 00:09:22.919 --> 00:09:27.480 continue on continue being highly compensated. And so it really 166 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:31.000 is like DEI and H. Let's be honest, HR is 167 00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:35.279 just DEI from a different era. They become entrenched interests 168 00:09:35.320 --> 00:09:39.000 and they become not for the corporation but for the 169 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:44.559 managers essential both because they enable the managerial apparatus to 170 00:09:44.759 --> 00:09:48.799 run ever more minute parts of the office of the 171 00:09:48.840 --> 00:09:53.360 corporation to increase their control. But also it is an 172 00:09:53.399 --> 00:09:56.320 element of patronage, right, Those are good, high paying jobs, which, 173 00:09:56.399 --> 00:09:59.279 let's be honest, in the case of DEI, don't seem 174 00:09:59.320 --> 00:10:02.720 to be particular, really strenuous, and so like anything else, 175 00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:06.759 there is a sort of client patron relationship there. Am 176 00:10:06.759 --> 00:10:08.320 I overstating the case, Sean, I. 177 00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:08.759 Don't think so. 178 00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:11.000 I think that you're right there. There's at least two 179 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:14.480 things going on there, right. The wocism, if for whatever 180 00:10:14.519 --> 00:10:18.080 you want to call it, it sort of justifies it 181 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:22.279 has a role in justifying the existence of certain managerial folks, right. 182 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:24.759 So it most obviously that would be your hiring, your 183 00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:27.279 DEI hiring department and so on, but also the people 184 00:10:27.279 --> 00:10:29.600 who implement those policies that are maybe a little bit 185 00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:32.679 above that department in the hierarchy, who are doing those things. 186 00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:35.679 So it's a thing to do, right, So I call 187 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:38.080 it in the article a forever project. It's a perfect 188 00:10:38.159 --> 00:10:40.960 project for a manager because it's a project that you 189 00:10:40.960 --> 00:10:45.559 can always work towards but never achieve. But more importantly, 190 00:10:45.559 --> 00:10:49.919 maybe you can measure incremental movements towards that goal and goal, 191 00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:53.600 whatever it is, and get compensated for it, or at 192 00:10:53.679 --> 00:10:56.039 least pat it on the back for it by whoever 193 00:10:56.080 --> 00:10:57.519 it is that's patting you on the back. 194 00:10:58.279 --> 00:11:00.559 So it justifies there existence. 195 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:03.919 It gives them a sort of a perpetual employment, perpetual 196 00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:06.159 goals to work towards. And that's true, I think, in 197 00:11:06.200 --> 00:11:09.600 the public and private sector, right, So that describes the 198 00:11:09.639 --> 00:11:12.919 managerial goals of the administrative state in the public sector. 199 00:11:12.919 --> 00:11:16.200 It also describes, let's say, the managerial goals of a 200 00:11:16.639 --> 00:11:21.759 big giant corporation in the private sector. I love the 201 00:11:21.799 --> 00:11:24.480 Burnham stuff, and I totally agree with everything that you said, 202 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:27.120 and your characterization of it is exactly right. What I 203 00:11:27.159 --> 00:11:29.759 think is interesting is that it goes back even before Burnham, 204 00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:35.120 to a book called The Modern Corporation Private Property by 205 00:11:35.159 --> 00:11:38.600 burleyan Means, which is like a nineteen thirty two book 206 00:11:39.080 --> 00:11:43.320 which is still referred to in contemporary corporate law classes 207 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:45.840 like which I teach, and we teach it in we 208 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:49.559 cite it for the proposition of the separation of ownership 209 00:11:49.600 --> 00:11:53.480 and control. So burleyan Means in the early thirties, notice 210 00:11:53.519 --> 00:11:58.799 that those big corporations, they're very large, and they've outgrown 211 00:11:58.840 --> 00:12:01.039 the size to where a single shareholder like Ford in 212 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:06.120 your example, could exert any control over them. And and 213 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:09.440 they are so they're large, and their control is separated 214 00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:12.720 from ownerships. So the capital contributors aren't really in charge anymore. 215 00:12:12.840 --> 00:12:15.840 It's this other class of managers, as you say, now, 216 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:20.000 burleyan Means call this the quasi public corporation. And their 217 00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:22.639 argument is that that's totally different from any other form 218 00:12:22.679 --> 00:12:25.639 of private property, and therefore it entitles the government to 219 00:12:25.679 --> 00:12:28.759 come in and run those companies for like stakeholders. Right, 220 00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:30.519 So this is kind of like what some people now 221 00:12:30.559 --> 00:12:32.000 call stakeholder capitalism. 222 00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:33.600 When we when when we. 223 00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:35.399 Talk when we refer back to Burley and Means, these 224 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:37.799 days we refer back to the separation of ownership and control, 225 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:41.159 But most people don't refer back to the to the 226 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:45.480 stakeholder capitalism part. But Burnham, interestingly in The Managerial Revolution, 227 00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:49.480 he cites Burlean Means and he says, these guys were right, 228 00:12:49.679 --> 00:12:51.200 like they had that they had the right idea. The 229 00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:54.200 separation of ownership and control is happening like they're their 230 00:12:54.279 --> 00:12:57.879 historical demonstration, their economic demonstration, or that fact is true. 231 00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:01.200 But then Burnham says they didn't draw the logical conclusion 232 00:13:01.399 --> 00:13:05.279 that this is actually a revolutionary event. Just like a 233 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:13.840 bourgeois capitalism replaced the hereditary monarchy or aristocracy as the 234 00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:19.840 governing class, this is this other class supplanting capital right, 235 00:13:19.879 --> 00:13:23.960 supplanting the ownership class as the governing class in the world. 236 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:29.159 And then he had examples in the United States, Western Europe, 237 00:13:29.159 --> 00:13:32.080 and the Soviet Union where he's trying to show that 238 00:13:32.159 --> 00:13:35.080 in spite of the surface differences between those regimes, they're 239 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:37.159 actually all running the same code. 240 00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:40.399 And his argument is why do sailoads have to be 241 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:44.879 so over the top, Why can't they be more relaxed, 242 00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:49.639 more like the air Lingus January sale. 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Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles Space 254 00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:28.440 for Needs and Dreams. Terms and conditions apply. Finance provided 255 00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:31.039 by way of high purchase agreement from Volkswagen Financial Services 256 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:34.159 Ireland and subject to ending criteria. Volkswagen Financial Services Aren't 257 00:14:34.279 --> 00:14:36.440 Limited is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. Visit 258 00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:38.600 volkswag Advance dot ae for further information. 259 00:14:38.759 --> 00:14:41.879 It's managerialism. It's the separation of ownership and control. 260 00:14:42.039 --> 00:14:46.240 It's the liberation of managers from their controlling inputs. 261 00:14:47.799 --> 00:14:52.159 And it's an interesting thing obviously, you know. Orwell's nineteen 262 00:14:52.200 --> 00:14:55.360 eighty four is written largely in response to James Burnham, 263 00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:59.519 and you know, as much as my sympathies are with 264 00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:02.559 the span soldier who shot him, you know, Orwell brings 265 00:15:02.600 --> 00:15:05.240 up some interesting things there, and you know, one of 266 00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:09.159 them is this idea of these three super states opposed 267 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:13.679 one to another, sometimes in an unstable alliance, but ultimately 268 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:19.080 the same structure, ultimately directed in the same way. And 269 00:15:19.799 --> 00:15:22.480 to me, this is sort of one of the the 270 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:27.519 primary errors of to be kind shall we say, a 271 00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:31.039 previous era of conservative many who are right now in 272 00:15:31.080 --> 00:15:35.639 the sort of anti woke coalition because they're so wrapped 273 00:15:35.720 --> 00:15:39.639 up in the dichotomy of the Cold War, which we 274 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:44.000 understand was a real event and one that, to be honest, 275 00:15:44.039 --> 00:15:48.679 threatened the existence of human life. But also that dichotomy 276 00:15:48.759 --> 00:15:54.759 between communism and capitalism, or say, is not nearly as 277 00:15:54.799 --> 00:16:00.440 deep as many like to pretend. And also going forward, 278 00:16:00.759 --> 00:16:05.759 that dichotomy does not describe the current relationship with the 279 00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:08.919 whatever you want to call the woke mind virus, as 280 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:12.960 the mean goes, Because you're completely correct, this is this 281 00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:16.720 managerial revolution is a revolution. It is a dramatic departure. 282 00:16:17.159 --> 00:16:21.200 But there is no inconsistency with this fusion of woke 283 00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:28.039 ideology and shareholder capitalism or managerialism, because ultimately they're pretty 284 00:16:28.120 --> 00:16:31.720 much not the same, but very much related. And you 285 00:16:31.799 --> 00:16:36.159 see the hatred from both the managerial class and the wokesters, 286 00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:40.080 if we could use that term towards the closest things 287 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:44.200 we have to modern day capitalists, someone like Elon Musk, 288 00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:46.600 who fair enough you can buy stock in many of 289 00:16:46.600 --> 00:16:51.399 his companies, but he owns his companies in a much 290 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:57.679 more definite way than most other CEOs, that most other leaders. 291 00:16:58.080 --> 00:17:00.120 And look, this is not supposed to be a you 292 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:02.360 know what, this is not supposed to be sort of 293 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:05.599 an acomium on Elon Musk. He certainly has many personality 294 00:17:05.599 --> 00:17:08.240 flaws we don't need to get into. But it's interesting 295 00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:11.960 that much of the hatred towards Elon Musk seemingly has 296 00:17:12.039 --> 00:17:14.319 very little to do with what he actually does or says. 297 00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:20.880 It is his stance as being outside of that managerial framework, 298 00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:24.640 again not entirely, look like we understand that his corporations 299 00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:27.839 are still run by managers, but he is a monarchical 300 00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:30.400 figure in that way. You know, he is the guy 301 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:36.200 who decides the direction of his companies. Again not necessarily 302 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:38.599 in the same way that Henry Ford could have, but 303 00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:41.839 still it's a different it's a different arrangement than one 304 00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:46.599 often found. And I think that that explains why so 305 00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:50.799 many disparate people hate him, or seemingly disparate, because again, 306 00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:54.599 it really is a like, I mean, we could even say, 307 00:17:54.599 --> 00:17:57.519 like a class based disdain. You see what I'm getting 308 00:17:57.519 --> 00:17:59.039 at there, Professor Griffin, I. 309 00:17:58.960 --> 00:18:01.519 Do I like all that? I mean, I guess there's 310 00:18:01.519 --> 00:18:02.960 a bunch of pieces. So let me see if I 311 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:05.119 can put a couple of different ones together. I think 312 00:18:05.160 --> 00:18:07.559 that you were right to mention the Cold War. You know, 313 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:12.519 when you think back to sort of prior managerial projects, 314 00:18:12.519 --> 00:18:14.519 I think we have an interesting question that we should consider, 315 00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:18.039 which is why is ESG and wokeism the current managerial project, 316 00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:20.039 which I think is hard to answer, but it's something 317 00:18:20.039 --> 00:18:23.480 we're thinking about. But there are definitely prior managerial projects, 318 00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:25.799 and the Cold War is one, right that is, and 319 00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:28.079 think about how the Cold War was fought. It was 320 00:18:28.119 --> 00:18:32.039 not fought with like, you know, a bunch of like 321 00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:37.279 separate business managers working on their own in separately and independently, 322 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:39.440 like in a free market way. To deal with like 323 00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:42.039 the threat of Soviet communism, no where was a sort 324 00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:46.680 of a centrally managed central intelligence agency operation to undermine 325 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:50.839 the Soviet Union. There's sort of a central coordinated way 326 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:53.160 to think about it. It was a problem that needed 327 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:57.799 coordinated administration to solve. The Second World War from our perspective, 328 00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:01.920 the US perspective, was a a large problem that needed 329 00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:06.559 coordinated administration to solve. Right the army, I read this biography. 330 00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:09.279 I think it was a Omar Bradley one time and 331 00:19:09.319 --> 00:19:14.359 the title of the biography was the Organizer in Chief, 332 00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:17.119 or maybe it was even the Manager in Chief, suggesting 333 00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:20.279 that Bradley's primary attribute and why he was a great 334 00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:22.079 general in the Second World War was that he was 335 00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:25.599 such a good manager. So a lot of like that giant, 336 00:19:25.799 --> 00:19:29.519 massive military effort, the coordinated economy that went into winning 337 00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:33.200 the Second World War, the administration of the military across 338 00:19:33.400 --> 00:19:37.720 different continents was a managerial project run by managers. Those 339 00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:42.039 generals were managers, not necessarily war fighters. And then the 340 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:47.039 Cold War is a definite managerial project. But then these 341 00:19:47.079 --> 00:19:48.839 projects are left and right, so you might think of 342 00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:50.799 both of those as a little bit right coded. But 343 00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:57.519 like the Great Society, all this sort of war on poverty, 344 00:19:57.599 --> 00:19:59.839 all those are managerial projects which are sort of co 345 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:01.559 coordinated problem solving. 346 00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:04.119 And I think that. 347 00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:07.599 That's an interesting that continuity of managerialism going back to 348 00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:12.119 the forties is an interesting thing to remark upon. I 349 00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:14.200 think the interesting thing in front of us now, though, 350 00:20:14.279 --> 00:20:18.160 is like why this project, like what what what about 351 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:23.119 managerialism has made it necessary to be a project focused 352 00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:27.680 on I don't know, anti racism, gender norms, uh, perpetual 353 00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:31.720 self sexual liberationism or something whatever you however you want 354 00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:34.000 to think about those nested issues that are at the core, 355 00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:41.359 why are those the the subjects of of of managerialism now? 356 00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:43.640 And I think one of the reasons that Elon has 357 00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:48.400 hated is that he does not display those values. And 358 00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:52.559 it's and I don't I think that, as you were saying, Astutelee, 359 00:20:52.599 --> 00:20:55.279 he's kind of the controller of Tesla. I mean, if 360 00:20:55.319 --> 00:20:57.440 I wanted to nerd out on Delaware corporate law, which 361 00:20:57.440 --> 00:20:59.559 I will not do, I would tell you that there 362 00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:02.640 is a there's a dispute in Delaware about whether where 363 00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:06.880 Tesla was formerly incorporated, about whether Elon actually controls Tesla. 364 00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:10.720 But he is close to a controller of Tesla, for sure. 365 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:14.279 And and he is not an ordinary CEO in the 366 00:21:14.279 --> 00:21:17.319 way that that Jamie Diamond at JP Morgan is an 367 00:21:17.400 --> 00:21:21.240 ordinary CEO. And so Elon has certain kinds of power 368 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:24.759 inside his organization that other CEOs don't have. I like 369 00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:26.400 the I like what you were saying. He's sort of 370 00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:30.880 more monarchical than managerial, and he as a result of that, 371 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:35.519 doesn't have to toe the line of the managerial orthodoxy, 372 00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:38.359 which is all of this woke ESG stuff. 373 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:44.880 Yeahs, as far as the question of why this project 374 00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:51.319 over anything else. Sort of paraphrasing my buddy Arun's book, right, 375 00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:56.039 the Total State, he talks about how you're the This 376 00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:59.160 sort of managerial system is sort of organic, right, It 377 00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:03.240 seeks to grow in expand and really it is an 378 00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:07.079 expansion of control into ever more minute aspects of the 379 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:10.880 human experience. Obviously, you know, with a great number of 380 00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:13.519 you know, the laws coming out of the nineteen sixties, 381 00:22:13.720 --> 00:22:18.160 you have an injection of management into freedom of association 382 00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:21.960 you know. Later, obviously we have this applied to the 383 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:26.160 War between the sexes. We mentioned HR earlier. But it 384 00:22:26.200 --> 00:22:31.799 effectively creates another sort of deeper apparatus for control when 385 00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:34.079 you think to the sort of things that are often 386 00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:38.359 mentioned in these you know, DEI seminars. Obviously you have 387 00:22:38.440 --> 00:22:43.640 the personnel question, which is from my perspective, creating a 388 00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:48.359 patronage network within the workplace, right, people who understand even 389 00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:50.880 if you know implicitly that they are there because of 390 00:22:51.559 --> 00:22:55.079 the DEI and other things. But also, I mean, I 391 00:22:55.079 --> 00:22:57.759 think that it's a natural extension from the perspective of 392 00:22:59.559 --> 00:23:05.200 ever greater control over just human existence, right, the idea 393 00:23:05.240 --> 00:23:09.079 that things that were previously not to say, a political 394 00:23:09.079 --> 00:23:11.160 in the sense that people didn't have opinions about them, 395 00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:14.640 but outside of the realm of politics have entered into 396 00:23:14.680 --> 00:23:21.359 it and entered into management. Right, things that were previously organic, 397 00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:27.200 were previously mediated consocially and informally become part of you 398 00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:30.079 could say, like the political or managerial apparatus. It's not 399 00:23:30.119 --> 00:23:33.240 a fully formulated thought. And I'm gribbing from a book 400 00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:35.480 that I read two years ago, so you know, don't 401 00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:38.119