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Speaker 1: My daughter Ellie had this ankle pain and we went

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to see VGI orthopedics that they actually picked up on

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her fatigue issues, so they brought in a rheumatologist and

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just a few small tests, they realized that Ellie was sediac.

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So what was brilliant was that Vhi had a pediatric

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dietitian ready to help manage her diet.

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Speaker 2: Really felt seamless, Vhgi, because your health means everything.

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Speaker 3: Every neighbor got definite lavor.

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Speaker 4: Did somebody say jasty? Eurergency? You had twenty three ephas

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extended family. Did you get a Rewinde's coffee roll the

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day say the harm it's major sawyah, the color reinforcement's foil.

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Speaker 5: Whoever you are, whatever your flavor.

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Speaker 4: Every neighbor deaf flavor, somebody's say jasty.

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Speaker 6: Take a second. Notice how you're moving, turning the steering wheel,

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holding your baby, running on the treadmill, kicking the ball.

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Your lungs are expanding, your heart beating. Life is full

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of movement, and you are full of life from big

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to small. Movement demands and deserves protein. Avon more protein, milk,

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deliciously fresh support for every move Avon Moore make every day.

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This good protein supports the maintenance of muscle mass enjoys

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part of a varied and balanced diet and healthy lifestyle.

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Speaker 7: Meaning a live man like this man letting butterfly, flapping

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his wing big down in on force. Man, it gonna

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cause a tree fall, letting five thousand mile away.

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Speaker 3: Man.

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Speaker 4: Nobody see nobody else.

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Speaker 7: And when you see that, you don't need no man

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you don't like, you call another story and you get back.

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Speaker 3: That's the point.

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Speaker 7: Got black a dag on a pan on?

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Speaker 8: All right, Sean Griffith, Welcome to the Jay Burdon Show.

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Speaker 9: How you doing man, I'm doing great. Thanks so much

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for having me.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, I'm excited to have you on. It's funny you

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sent me a pre production version of this piece, and

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then very shortly afterwards I saw it again in Chronicles,

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which is a magazine I read quite regularly. And so

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before we get into the article you've read, who are

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you and what do you do well?

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Speaker 10: I'm a law professor. I'm a law professor at Fordham

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Law School in New York City. I've been a law

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professor for something like twenty five years. My area is

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corporate law, which isn't as political or at least didn't

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used to be as political as some other areas of

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the law, but these days it is, and the politics

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enters through this idea of ESG or environmental social governance

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and what some people call the woke corporation. And so

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the essay that I sent to you is an attempt

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to explain the persistence of ESG and corporate wokeism.

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Speaker 11: Yeah.

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Speaker 8: It's an interesting angle because a lot of people who

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I don't particularly enjoy define themselves in opposition to woke

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You see, obviously the woke left, but also this new

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emergent phrase, the woke right, and their conception is that wokeness,

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whatever you want to call it, is inherently Marxist. They

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are one and the same. And again sort of playing

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Desil Devil's advocate here, If communism and wokeness are synonymous,

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how can a corporate corporation corporate corporation, How can a

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big corporation go woke?

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Speaker 9: Yeah?

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Speaker 10: I think that's an interesting question. You know, I think

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that the question presents itself as a kind of a paradox.

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On the on the one hand, wokeism is persistent. Right,

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so we have a new administration, but we still the

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woke hasn't gone away, at least in the corporate world.

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I saw a statistic the other day that something like

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fifty or sixty percent of a fortune five hundred have

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board level reporting to their DEI departments. And there are

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all these big corporations that are you know, that are

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that are resisting the pushing to eliminate DEI.

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Speaker 9: And they're hiring and promotion operations.

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Speaker 10: And you can certainly see wocism still in some consumer brands,

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most most obviously maybe the NFL. So it seems like

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it's a persistent phenomenon. It's not just that it came

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up in the first place. But at the same time,

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it doesn't seem like it's entirely sincere. So when I

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talk two business people, CEOs, you know, they'll often say

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things like, oh, you know, I'm not very political. I

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don't consider myself ideological. It's not really who I am,

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you know. I'm just about doing the right thing for

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the corporation. Even when you talk to academics about ESG

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or woke corporatism, they're just like, Hey, isn't this just

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a some words that we have to say so that

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we can get back to business as usual And So

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that's kind of a paradox, right. You would think if

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the thing was insincere, it wouldn't be persistent, or you

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would think that if the thing was persistent, it couldn't

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it would have to be sincere. And it seems like

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those two things are butting up against each other. So

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the essay is really attempt to explain that paradox, and

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the way that I explain it is that wokeism is

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a form of managerialism. It's a necessary iteration of the

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current managerial elite.

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Speaker 8: It's an interesting thing you point out because, look, I'm

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a full time internet person now, for whatever that's worth.

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But I did work in the corporate world, and one

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of the things that was very striking to me is

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how often it's sort of the business equivalent of having

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kids to save the relationship, where it's something you pull

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out when things aren't going well. For instance, my last

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real corporate job, the company ended up going under, but

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really about a month and a half before, when the

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writing was on the wall, everyone on the sales side,

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which is where I worked, was painfully aware that we're

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getting shell ACKed. And the big pivot was a pivot

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to diversity. We had hired this range of DEI consultants,

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and so I wonder if part of it is that

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it is DEI diversity. All of that has entered this

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level of best practices where this is simply things that

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successful corporations do. We are not successful, we don't have this.

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So clearly this is part of the transformation into a

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successful business. Now, obviously you and I understand that that's

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not the case. But to me and I'm glad you

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tied it to managerialism, it has become for managers, for

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the people who direct almost every company. It's become one

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of those key performance indicators, right, those metrics that determine

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whether or a company is successful or not. So in

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the same way that no one really questions why we

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want to be more profitable this year than last. It's

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not quite at that level, but it's a similar level

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of sort of received wisdom. If you see what I'm

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getting at, Sean, I do.

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Speaker 9: I think you know.

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Speaker 10: Your point is that there are all these departments essentially

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inside corporations that do wokeism.

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Speaker 9: And that's true.

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Speaker 10: It's basically ingrained as part of the corporate structure, and

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which explains to some degree why it's so hard to eradicate.

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On the other hand, the managers, if they wanted to,

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the CEOs of the corporations that you're describing, could just

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be like, well, we've got to cut costs. We've got

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to cut them somewhere. Let's cut them in the in

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the DEI department or whatever. And they seem not to

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do that. That seems to be a move that they're

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loath to do, and so there must be something there, right,

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There's something about how these things that seem like obvious

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things for the chopping block don't tend to go there,

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and I think that's in the nature of managerialism itself.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, I think that you're entirely right. And by the way,

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for those wondering, because I will always get comments on this.

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The reason you can see I'm looking at something in

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the other window. It's not me scrolling Twitter. It's me

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referencing the article.

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Speaker 12: Right.

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Speaker 8: I do actually do my homework every once in a while.

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But you're entirely correct there. You mentioned the history of managerialism,

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and to me, I'm not nearly as well read on

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this subject as you are. But it goes back to

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Burnham's The Managerial Revolution, and he talks about the transition

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from capitalism to managerialism. For those who aren't familiar, he

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was writing in the thirties talking about the death of capitalism,

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which involved the death of the capitalist. At that time,

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there was a time where you could go to Ford

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Motor Company, walk up to the penthouse suite and there'd

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be a guy named Ford there who was in charge

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of it, sort of this baronial figure. It was almost

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feudal arrangement, and that was replaced due to any number

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of financial or technical innovations with managers joint stock, you know,

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the idea that no one really owns the entirety of it,

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and so who runs it, well, these managers for hire,

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and what Burnham describes and again I think what you're

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getting at there is that the system becomes self interested.

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Managers are interested in themselves, interested in people like them,

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and the fact that you know, their sort of jobs

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continue on continue being highly compensated. And so it really

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is like DEI and H. Let's be honest, HR is

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just DEI from a different era. They become entrenched interests

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and they become not for the corporation but for the

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managers essential both because they enable the managerial apparatus to

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run ever more minute parts of the office of the

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corporation to increase their control. But also it is an

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element of patronage, right, Those are good, high paying jobs, which,

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let's be honest, in the case of DEI, don't seem

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to be particular, really strenuous, and so like anything else,

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there is a sort of client patron relationship there. Am

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I overstating the case, Sean, I.

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Speaker 9: Don't think so.

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Speaker 10: I think that you're right there. There's at least two

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things going on there, right. The wocism, if for whatever

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you want to call it, it sort of justifies it

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has a role in justifying the existence of certain managerial folks, right.

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So it most obviously that would be your hiring, your

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DEI hiring department and so on, but also the people

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who implement those policies that are maybe a little bit

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above that department in the hierarchy, who are doing those things.

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So it's a thing to do, right, So I call

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it in the article a forever project. It's a perfect

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project for a manager because it's a project that you

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can always work towards but never achieve. But more importantly,

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maybe you can measure incremental movements towards that goal and goal,

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whatever it is, and get compensated for it, or at

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least pat it on the back for it by whoever

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it is that's patting you on the back.

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Speaker 9: So it justifies there existence.

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Speaker 10: It gives them a sort of a perpetual employment, perpetual

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goals to work towards. And that's true, I think, in

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the public and private sector, right, So that describes the

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managerial goals of the administrative state in the public sector.

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It also describes, let's say, the managerial goals of a

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big giant corporation in the private sector. I love the

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Burnham stuff, and I totally agree with everything that you said,

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and your characterization of it is exactly right. What I

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think is interesting is that it goes back even before Burnham,

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to a book called The Modern Corporation Private Property by

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burleyan Means, which is like a nineteen thirty two book

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which is still referred to in contemporary corporate law classes

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like which I teach, and we teach it in we

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cite it for the proposition of the separation of ownership

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and control. So burleyan Means in the early thirties, notice

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that those big corporations, they're very large, and they've outgrown

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the size to where a single shareholder like Ford in

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your example, could exert any control over them. And and

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they are so they're large, and their control is separated

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from ownerships. So the capital contributors aren't really in charge anymore.

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It's this other class of managers, as you say, now,

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burleyan Means call this the quasi public corporation. And their

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argument is that that's totally different from any other form

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of private property, and therefore it entitles the government to

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come in and run those companies for like stakeholders. Right,

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So this is kind of like what some people now

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call stakeholder capitalism.

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Speaker 9: When we when when we.

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Speaker 10: Talk when we refer back to Burley and Means, these

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days we refer back to the separation of ownership and control,

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But most people don't refer back to the to the

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stakeholder capitalism part. But Burnham, interestingly in The Managerial Revolution,

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he cites Burlean Means and he says, these guys were right,

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like they had that they had the right idea. The

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separation of ownership and control is happening like they're their

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historical demonstration, their economic demonstration, or that fact is true.

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But then Burnham says they didn't draw the logical conclusion

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that this is actually a revolutionary event. Just like a

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bourgeois capitalism replaced the hereditary monarchy or aristocracy as the

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governing class, this is this other class supplanting capital right,

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supplanting the ownership class as the governing class in the world.

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And then he had examples in the United States, Western Europe,

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and the Soviet Union where he's trying to show that

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in spite of the surface differences between those regimes, they're

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actually all running the same code.

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Speaker 2: And his argument is why do sailoads have to be

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so over the top, Why can't they be more relaxed,

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more like the air Lingus January sale. Sure, great savings

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or amarok for when the job and the journey matter equally,

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Speaker 9: It's managerialism. It's the separation of ownership and control.

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Speaker 10: It's the liberation of managers from their controlling inputs.

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Speaker 8: And it's an interesting thing obviously, you know. Orwell's nineteen

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eighty four is written largely in response to James Burnham,

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and you know, as much as my sympathies are with

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the span soldier who shot him, you know, Orwell brings

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up some interesting things there, and you know, one of

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them is this idea of these three super states opposed

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one to another, sometimes in an unstable alliance, but ultimately

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the same structure, ultimately directed in the same way. And

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to me, this is sort of one of the the

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primary errors of to be kind shall we say, a

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previous era of conservative many who are right now in

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the sort of anti woke coalition because they're so wrapped

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up in the dichotomy of the Cold War, which we

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understand was a real event and one that, to be honest,

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threatened the existence of human life. But also that dichotomy

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between communism and capitalism, or say, is not nearly as

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deep as many like to pretend. And also going forward,

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that dichotomy does not describe the current relationship with the

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whatever you want to call the woke mind virus, as

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the mean goes, Because you're completely correct, this is this

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managerial revolution is a revolution. It is a dramatic departure.

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But there is no inconsistency with this fusion of woke

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ideology and shareholder capitalism or managerialism, because ultimately they're pretty

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much not the same, but very much related. And you

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see the hatred from both the managerial class and the wokesters,

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if we could use that term towards the closest things

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we have to modern day capitalists, someone like Elon Musk,

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who fair enough you can buy stock in many of

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his companies, but he owns his companies in a much

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more definite way than most other CEOs, that most other leaders.

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And look, this is not supposed to be a you

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know what, this is not supposed to be sort of

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an acomium on Elon Musk. He certainly has many personality

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flaws we don't need to get into. But it's interesting

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that much of the hatred towards Elon Musk seemingly has

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very little to do with what he actually does or says.

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It is his stance as being outside of that managerial framework,

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again not entirely, look like we understand that his corporations

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are still run by managers, but he is a monarchical

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figure in that way. You know, he is the guy

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who decides the direction of his companies. Again not necessarily

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in the same way that Henry Ford could have, but

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still it's a different it's a different arrangement than one

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often found. And I think that that explains why so

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many disparate people hate him, or seemingly disparate, because again,

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it really is a like, I mean, we could even say,

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like a class based disdain. You see what I'm getting

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at there, Professor Griffin, I.

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Speaker 10: Do I like all that? I mean, I guess there's

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a bunch of pieces. So let me see if I

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can put a couple of different ones together. I think

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that you were right to mention the Cold War. You know,

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when you think back to sort of prior managerial projects,

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I think we have an interesting question that we should consider,

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which is why is ESG and wokeism the current managerial project,

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which I think is hard to answer, but it's something

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we're thinking about. But there are definitely prior managerial projects,

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and the Cold War is one, right that is, and

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think about how the Cold War was fought. It was

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not fought with like, you know, a bunch of like

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separate business managers working on their own in separately and independently,

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like in a free market way. To deal with like

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the threat of Soviet communism, no where was a sort

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of a centrally managed central intelligence agency operation to undermine

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the Soviet Union. There's sort of a central coordinated way

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to think about it. It was a problem that needed

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coordinated administration to solve. The Second World War from our perspective,

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the US perspective, was a a large problem that needed

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coordinated administration to solve. Right the army, I read this biography.

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I think it was a Omar Bradley one time and

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the title of the biography was the Organizer in Chief,

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or maybe it was even the Manager in Chief, suggesting

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that Bradley's primary attribute and why he was a great

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general in the Second World War was that he was

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such a good manager. So a lot of like that giant,

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massive military effort, the coordinated economy that went into winning

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the Second World War, the administration of the military across

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different continents was a managerial project run by managers. Those

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generals were managers, not necessarily war fighters. And then the

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Cold War is a definite managerial project. But then these

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projects are left and right, so you might think of

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both of those as a little bit right coded. But

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like the Great Society, all this sort of war on poverty,

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all those are managerial projects which are sort of co

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coordinated problem solving.

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Speaker 9: And I think that.

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Speaker 10: That's an interesting that continuity of managerialism going back to

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the forties is an interesting thing to remark upon. I

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think the interesting thing in front of us now, though,

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is like why this project, like what what what about

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managerialism has made it necessary to be a project focused

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on I don't know, anti racism, gender norms, uh, perpetual

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self sexual liberationism or something whatever you however you want

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to think about those nested issues that are at the core,

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why are those the the subjects of of of managerialism now?

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And I think one of the reasons that Elon has

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hated is that he does not display those values. And

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it's and I don't I think that, as you were saying, Astutelee,

359
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he's kind of the controller of Tesla. I mean, if

360
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I wanted to nerd out on Delaware corporate law, which

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I will not do, I would tell you that there

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is a there's a dispute in Delaware about whether where

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Tesla was formerly incorporated, about whether Elon actually controls Tesla.

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But he is close to a controller of Tesla, for sure.

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And and he is not an ordinary CEO in the

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way that that Jamie Diamond at JP Morgan is an

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ordinary CEO. And so Elon has certain kinds of power

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inside his organization that other CEOs don't have. I like

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the I like what you were saying. He's sort of

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more monarchical than managerial, and he as a result of that,

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doesn't have to toe the line of the managerial orthodoxy,

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which is all of this woke ESG stuff.

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Speaker 8: Yeahs, as far as the question of why this project

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over anything else. Sort of paraphrasing my buddy Arun's book, right,

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the Total State, he talks about how you're the This

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sort of managerial system is sort of organic, right, It

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seeks to grow in expand and really it is an

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expansion of control into ever more minute aspects of the

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human experience. Obviously, you know, with a great number of

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you know, the laws coming out of the nineteen sixties,

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you have an injection of management into freedom of association

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you know. Later, obviously we have this applied to the

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War between the sexes. We mentioned HR earlier. But it

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effectively creates another sort of deeper apparatus for control when

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you think to the sort of things that are often

386
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mentioned in these you know, DEI seminars. Obviously you have

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the personnel question, which is from my perspective, creating a

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patronage network within the workplace, right, people who understand even

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if you know implicitly that they are there because of

390
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the DEI and other things. But also, I mean, I

391
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think that it's a natural extension from the perspective of

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ever greater control over just human existence, right, the idea

393
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that things that were previously not to say, a political

394
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in the sense that people didn't have opinions about them,

395
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but outside of the realm of politics have entered into

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it and entered into management. Right, things that were previously organic,

397
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were previously mediated consocially and informally become part of you

398
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could say, like the political or managerial apparatus. It's not

399
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a fully formulated thought. And I'm gribbing from a book

400
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that I read two years ago, so you know, don't

401
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don't don't crucify me for it, But that's I think

402
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at least one element to it.

403
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Speaker 10: Yeah, I like Oron's book, and I think he's got

404
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He's onto something for sure. I think for here's a

405
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question that I think we could pose that to try

406
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to draw, to draw some lines between maybe Oron's book

407
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and this essay and other ideas. Could you have a

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right wing managerialism? I think is a question that we

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could We could ask like, is there or is there

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something about managerialism that codes left? And so my answer

411
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to that question probably Orn's answer to but I'm gonna

412
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give my answer and he can speak for himself, is

413
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that there there there, you know, Burnham to go back

414
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to Burnham for a second. Burnham certainly thought that managerialism

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could be right coded.

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Speaker 9: Right, so he treats.

417
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Speaker 10: European fascism as a form of of managerialism, and so

418
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there's that we should acknowledge that. And maybe you could

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say that the Second World War and the Cold War

420
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were right wing projects and they were managerial projects. So

421
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it's possible that there could be some forms of right

422
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wing managerialism in the past. I don't know, but I

423
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think that you can't really have sustained right wing managerialism

424
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for for two reasons. One reason is theoretical and one

425
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reason is more practical.

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Speaker 9: So the theoretical.

427
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Speaker 10: Reason is and I think you were getting at this,

428
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like what is the defining.

429
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Speaker 9: Trait of the left, Like what does the left want?

430
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Speaker 8: What is it?

431
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Speaker 9: What is it after? What is its goal?

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Speaker 10: And I think it's something like perpetual problem solving in

433
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order to make things better for mankind? Right, Like, So

434
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if you go back to like Francis Bake and Enlightenment philosophy,

435
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their idea is, look, we're going to stop doing all

436
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this science and philosophy to like live virtuously or whatever.

437
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Like that doesn't mean or figure out the good, interrogate

438
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the good. We're going to direct philosophy and knowledge towards

439
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enlightening man's state, right, making things better, right, making their

440
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material conditions better. So from that point onward, the left

441
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project is sort of to make life easier for human beings.

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And so the motivating energy on the left is always

443
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to like incrementally improve things through coordinated administration, and that

444
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I think is the managerial project par excellence. If everything

445
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is a problem to be solved through coordinated administration, then

446
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everything comes into managerialism and it becomes something to work on.

447
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Whereas the motivating energy on the right, I think is

448
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something else, and we can talk about what that could be,

449
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and maybe it's something like hierarchy and transcendence. To put

450
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it somewhat provocatively, right, the left, the managerial left, wants

451
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to save mankind, but the right knows that mankind was

452
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saved two thousand years ago by God's intervening grace.

453
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Speaker 9: Right, if you wanted to be really provocative.

454
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Speaker 10: But the left has got a project all the time,

455
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and the right it's not clearly about a project.

456
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Speaker 9: It's more about.

457
00:26:40,079 --> 00:26:43,440
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Speaker 10: Hierarchy experiencing transcendence through hierarchy. Right, So there's a theoretical

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problem that's a theoretical obstacle to sustain right wing managerialism,

475
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,559
Like it just doesn't fit. We're not always trying to

476
00:27:44,599 --> 00:27:47,960
solve problems, And insofar as the way that managerialism works

477
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:53,039
is by always solving material problems, it wants to take

478
00:27:53,079 --> 00:27:56,279
on those characteristics of the left. So that's a theoretical

479
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:01,920
objection to the possibility of right wing managerialism. The practical

480
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:07,799
ejection is just these days, like left liberalism is the

481
00:28:07,799 --> 00:28:11,319
cultural code of the elite. And so if the if

482
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,680
the managerial elite UH want to get into positions of

483
00:28:15,799 --> 00:28:19,839
authority in the managerial state, Uh, they need to they

484
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:24,160
need to you know, internalize that code. And and as

485
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,920
a pragmatic matter, it happens in you know, three different ways.

486
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,000
It happens at school, right, So UH, to get into

487
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,240
the managerial elite, you have to be credentialed through elite schools.

488
00:28:33,319 --> 00:28:37,000
And as everyone your entire audience knows, elite schools are

489
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:43,319
a place of you know, intellectual conformity, left intellectual conformity.

490
00:28:43,359 --> 00:28:45,480
So you have to come out with a credential from

491
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:51,160
that credentialing institution inside the manage the organization. To rise

492
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,880
to positions of authority in the managerial uh organization, you

493
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,480
have to survive successive promotion tournaments, right, And so in

494
00:28:59,519 --> 00:29:01,519
a promotion tournaments, the question is are you going to

495
00:29:01,559 --> 00:29:04,039
get promoted or is it going to be some other person?

496
00:29:04,559 --> 00:29:09,000
And that's an opportunity for you to be well more competent,

497
00:29:09,079 --> 00:29:11,279
would be the nice way of putting it. But the

498
00:29:11,319 --> 00:29:14,920
other possibility is other factors could enter into that promotion dynamic,

499
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,319
and those factors can be ideological factors. So if you

500
00:29:18,359 --> 00:29:21,720
don't conform ideologically to the norms of the organization or

501
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,279
to the norms of the culture, generally, you don't survive

502
00:29:24,359 --> 00:29:27,640
in the promotion tournament to move up. And as those

503
00:29:27,759 --> 00:29:30,559
organizations are more and more woke, those tournaments are more

504
00:29:30,559 --> 00:29:33,000
and more woke. And you know, this is the reason

505
00:29:33,039 --> 00:29:35,759
that you know, white men complain about their inability to

506
00:29:35,839 --> 00:29:36,720
rise within.

507
00:29:38,759 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 9: Corporate hierarchies these days.

508
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,279
Speaker 10: And then the last one would be, you know, let's

509
00:29:43,319 --> 00:29:46,799
say some some right wing person, some conservative gets to

510
00:29:46,839 --> 00:29:49,480
the top of a managerial organization and decides it's time

511
00:29:49,519 --> 00:29:52,559
to raise the Jolly Roger. Well, that person is going

512
00:29:52,599 --> 00:29:57,400
to be denounced, terminated, and probably canceled unless they have

513
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,160
some insurance against that. And the only insurance against that

514
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,960
is to own the organization like Elon does.

515
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,039
Speaker 9: Right, only that level of.

516
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 10: Actual access to capital provides for safety. I don't think

517
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,920
that Jamie Diamond has the same level of safety in

518
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,119
that sense as Elon. But anyway, those practical those practical

519
00:30:18,359 --> 00:30:22,160
hurdles sort of make it impossible for right wing managerialism

520
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,359
to exist. So basically left wing left liberalism is encoded

521
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,440
within the managerial organization, and that's the world that.

522
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 9: We live in.

523
00:30:32,119 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 8: Yeah, so there's a lot there. I think if we

524
00:30:37,559 --> 00:30:39,880
examine that idea of is it possible to have a

525
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:44,400
right wing managerial regime. I'm glad you brought up the

526
00:30:44,519 --> 00:30:49,799
examples of the European fascists, the prominent mid century German regime.

527
00:30:50,279 --> 00:30:52,799
But to me, I think that it's sort of up

528
00:30:52,839 --> 00:30:57,200
for debate in my mind whether that is a possible future,

529
00:30:57,319 --> 00:31:01,160
Like we could have right wing managerial fascism. Not something

530
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,839
I would advocate for per se, but just saying like

531
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:09,160
that is a mathematical possibility. I wonder if one could ask,

532
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,240
I guess if our current situation is a result of

533
00:31:12,799 --> 00:31:15,400
sort of living in the house that FDR built, that

534
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,079
this great progressive figure sort of entrenches the managerial regime

535
00:31:19,119 --> 00:31:24,640
in America, and ultimately our government still exists in FDR mode.

536
00:31:25,039 --> 00:31:28,400
Right The French would kind of number their republics. We don't.

537
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,480
But effectively it's sort of a new dispensation, some might say,

538
00:31:32,559 --> 00:31:36,759
of America. That's one point, and I'm actually not convinced

539
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:38,960
either way. On that question, is it possible to have

540
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,079
a right wing managerial regime. But you're quite right to

541
00:31:42,119 --> 00:31:47,480
bring up the question of intragroup competition and also of status,

542
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:52,480
because I think that the status question is incredibly important

543
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,680
to this. You mentioned that all of these institutions which

544
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,640
both provide accreditation, which is both a key to enter,

545
00:32:00,079 --> 00:32:02,400
you know, different kind of tears of the managerial regime,

546
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:08,559
but also provide status, and I think that that cannot

547
00:32:08,559 --> 00:32:12,440
be underestimated. To kind of pull a trick out of

548
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:17,079
my Marxist hat here, I think that the the middle

549
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:23,039
class is incredibly interested in social status and social standing.

550
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,440
And for instance, you see this with there's certain changes

551
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,359
in American society. Gay marriage is unpopular before Berga fell,

552
00:32:31,759 --> 00:32:34,200
it becomes popular the law of the land, and all

553
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,519
of a sudden we see that sixty forty split reverse

554
00:32:38,039 --> 00:32:41,680
because again, you know it is it is endorsed by

555
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,559
the government. It is a normal quote unquote, actually we

556
00:32:44,559 --> 00:32:47,359
could just say normal and statistical sense opinion now and

557
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:51,319
it becomes widely held. And I think that your your

558
00:32:51,359 --> 00:32:55,440
comments again about the necessity the necessary level of capital

559
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,759
to insulate yourself from this, I mean, look, that's entirely correct, Like,

560
00:32:59,759 --> 00:33:03,119
look all the Shenaniganst. Peter Teal has had to go through. Right,

561
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,880
He's he's in California. He's clearly fighting off the kind

562
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,839
of encroachment of the Wolke regime, and he's resorted to

563
00:33:10,839 --> 00:33:13,079
all kinds of crazy stuff. Right, He's required to have

564
00:33:13,119 --> 00:33:16,000
a woman on his board, and he finds some random

565
00:33:16,039 --> 00:33:18,119
reporter who's never sat out a boardroom in his life,

566
00:33:18,119 --> 00:33:20,319
that's loyal to him personally and says, all right, she's

567
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,880
my woman. So point is like, that's not something that

568
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,119
that sort of entry is of just working your way up.

569
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,440
And then, as you said, raising the Jollie Roger, it

570
00:33:30,519 --> 00:33:33,839
is not possible for any number of reasons. I guess

571
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,480
I'm kind of spoiling this, but I will have Will

572
00:33:36,559 --> 00:33:39,400
hild On soon, who's you know, writes quite a bit

573
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,400
about this, to talk exactly about the sort of capital controls,

574
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,200
artificial or not, that are put in place to keep

575
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,000
that exact thing from happening, to keep there from being

576
00:33:49,079 --> 00:33:51,279
a conservative company, or even a company that puts out

577
00:33:51,279 --> 00:33:56,359
a right of center product, you know, whether entertainment or not.

578
00:33:57,039 --> 00:34:00,359
And I realized I threw a bunch of you there.

579
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:06,279
But let's specifically pivot to that question of status, because

580
00:34:06,279 --> 00:34:09,920
I'm not entirely sure how you and many have tried.

581
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:11,880
I mean, Barry Weis, so I'm no big fan of,

582
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,360
but she's, you know, part of this project to create

583
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,280
sort of an alternative anti woke university in Austin, which

584
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,079
doesn't seem to be going anywhere. But it seems to

585
00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:24,440
be a very difficult nut to crack because the system

586
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:29,079
is ever more left wing, because the institutions which provide

587
00:34:29,119 --> 00:34:32,840
both entry to that system and accreditation are incredibly left

588
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,920
wing and without effectively, you know, as Jarvin would say,

589
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,239
putting tanks in Harvard Yard, I don't know how you

590
00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:45,559
create or destroy that network of prestige and accreditation.

591
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 10: Yeah, well, I saw You're raising a really important question,

592
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,840
which is the universities and the culture basically, and I

593
00:34:54,880 --> 00:35:01,119
would put those institutions in a different category from like corporations,

594
00:35:01,159 --> 00:35:03,159
which we're talking about now, or corporations. At the end

595
00:35:03,199 --> 00:35:06,119
of the day, it's still true that if you know,

596
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,920
for as woke as some CEO wants to be, if

597
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,639
they're not returning dividends or growing the share price or whatever,

598
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,280
they're going to be consequences for that, and so there's

599
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,719
a there is a I don't think it is an

600
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,079
adequate correction, but there is some correction.

601
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 9: Like you have. You can be woke, but you have.

602
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 10: To be woke and still a crete to capital. In

603
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,519
other institutions, that is not true. So that is not

604
00:35:30,559 --> 00:35:34,679
true in universities. They don't have that same real world

605
00:35:35,119 --> 00:35:39,239
ultimate rubber meets the road moment that corporations have. In

606
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:43,519
universities are different and the people that populate universities are

607
00:35:43,519 --> 00:35:46,480
different too. So you know, I'm a university professor and

608
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,679
I don't make as much money as I would make

609
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,440
as a university professor as if I were doing the

610
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,360
same thing in the private sectors as a corporate lawyer

611
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,440
for example. Right, there's a there's a pretty big delta,

612
00:35:58,559 --> 00:36:02,480
but that's okay. And so the people that go into

613
00:36:02,599 --> 00:36:04,960
universities to make those sorts of those same sorts of.

614
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 9: Trade offs they have. There's a trade off, right, it's

615
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:07,480
a psychic trade off.

616
00:36:07,599 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 10: And you're like, well, I get to live with ideas,

617
00:36:10,079 --> 00:36:12,960
I get to pursue questions. I get to ask questions

618
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,320
that I'm interested in all the time, as opposed to

619
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,760
like what my client wants me to do and and

620
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,480
so this enriches and it's a worthwhile trade off for me.

621
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,360
Now some people make that same trade off, and their

622
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,320
their engagement with ideas is as an advocate right or

623
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,119
a believer or a adherent to a particular school of

624
00:36:29,119 --> 00:36:33,280
social thought. And I think that what happened you can

625
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,880
draw so those we were talking earlier about those people

626
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,519
who want to say this is all Marxism, and there's

627
00:36:38,559 --> 00:36:40,679
definitely a group of people that want to say this

628
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,119
is like neo Marxism, and this like marching of the

629
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:48,679
take it like a Gramskia control of the institutions. I

630
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,079
think that is a You can tell that story much

631
00:36:51,079 --> 00:36:54,679
more convincingly in universities than you can tell in corporations.

632
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:56,800
And the reason why is the people that are in

633
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,840
the universities are were trained by, like literally trained by

634
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,280
members of the Frankfurt School, came over to the United

635
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:08,800
States and created disciples who trained further classes of university professors.

636
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:10,800
So there's a straight line if you wanted to draw

637
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:12,840
a straight line from person to person to person. And

638
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,920
then there's just the fact that cultural, that post colonial,

639
00:37:17,119 --> 00:37:22,039
deconstructivist mode of thought took over American universities and whenever

640
00:37:22,039 --> 00:37:24,159
it was in nineteen sixties or nineteen seventies, and won't

641
00:37:24,199 --> 00:37:28,079
let go it's critical theory now. So I think that

642
00:37:28,199 --> 00:37:33,039
universities are run by true believers, and I think there's

643
00:37:33,079 --> 00:37:35,800
no fixing that other than to have our own institutions.

644
00:37:36,039 --> 00:37:39,760
As you say, and I don't disagree, that's really hard

645
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,400
to do. It's interesting why that's so hard to do.

646
00:37:43,519 --> 00:37:46,360
Maybe that's something it's a sort of separate question. But

647
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,239
I will agree with you that I wouldn't describe universities

648
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,719
as simply managerial. I don't think they are. I think

649
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:58,280
that corporations are simply managerial. I think that managerialism codes

650
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,280
left and because of that, corporations, big corporations, the quasi

651
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,320
public corporation's code left, But university's code left for a

652
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:09,679
different reason, which is that they are ideological and their

653
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,079
faculty are very often true believers.

654
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,760
Speaker 8: So to interject there, and look, I have spent much

655
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,400
less time in higher education than you have, so I'll

656
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,960
admit like I'm not an expert in this field. I

657
00:38:23,639 --> 00:38:27,800
left university as quickly as I possibly could, but nonetheless,

658
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:33,559
couldn't you look at the incredible growth of administrators within

659
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,079
education in the last twenty years and say, look, that

660
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,400
is a system becoming more and more managerial. You see

661
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,639
the same thing in K through twelve right that the

662
00:38:42,679 --> 00:38:45,280
student to teacher ratios have stayed the same, the number

663
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,760
of administrators have grown. I think this the figure I'm

664
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,400
talking about with. I think just since no child left

665
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,559
behind but was up over one hundred percent, couldn't you say,

666
00:38:54,599 --> 00:38:56,960
well that is maybe it was not at one point,

667
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,119
but it's becoming more and more managerial, especially as there

668
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:05,400
is the infusion of government cash. So just a sort

669
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:07,039
of a hypothetical throw at you there.

670
00:39:07,639 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 15: Why does a peacock shimmer blue and green? Wire flamingos pink?

671
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:16,159
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672
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673
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674
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675
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676
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677
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Dot I E.

678
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,760
Speaker 16: B A Antoma got bogger on the heartenir the hollow,

679
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:51,920
the hayman heco ah ers or Slanceledeni, detain nudovshutarhu la

680
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:56,400
hula shomperides and udor slinse is phaser at guns throw

681
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:03,880
tasha tapa siranashka nav are font is fiugel more hi

682
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:08,079
a punk ie is called locrilala a on tudoros or raslanca.

683
00:40:08,119 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 17: If we real this in Maharan, Yeah.

684
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 10: I think you could say that's more managerialism coming into

685
00:40:13,519 --> 00:40:14,199
the university.

686
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,079
Speaker 9: I think so. I think you could say that there's

687
00:40:16,159 --> 00:40:17,159
that that you know.

688
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 11: Uh.

689
00:40:18,199 --> 00:40:19,599
Speaker 10: One of the lines, I mean, it's not a line

690
00:40:19,639 --> 00:40:21,119
in the article, but one of the takeaways from my

691
00:40:21,199 --> 00:40:23,719
article is that when you hear the phrase public private partnership,

692
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:24,599
like you should run away.

693
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 15: Uh.

694
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,840
Speaker 10: And that's one of the situations where you have like

695
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:32,639
government money coming into universities to staff up particular types

696
00:40:32,679 --> 00:40:34,480
of particular.

697
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,760
Speaker 9: Parts of the university. I also think there's something.

698
00:40:36,559 --> 00:40:40,639
Speaker 10: To the idea that the ideologically committed faculty who ultimately

699
00:40:40,679 --> 00:40:48,599
govern the university appreciate that certain departments in trench left ideology, right,

700
00:40:48,679 --> 00:40:54,760
so like diversity administrators in trench aspects of left ideology.

701
00:40:55,079 --> 00:40:57,239
And so if you're a left wing faculty member, you

702
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:01,440
are super happy to have a bud of diversocrats at

703
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:06,800
your university because basically that put that ensures the hiring

704
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:12,239
of future left wing ideologues and throughout the personnel structure

705
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,760
of the university, where you know, you can only control

706
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,280
faculty hiring, but in the administration of the university you

707
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:18,559
can sort of push.

708
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 9: Your values onto all forms of hiring as well. So

709
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:22,480
I wouldn't.

710
00:41:22,119 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 10: Disagree with you that managerialism comes into the university. I

711
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,719
would just say the explanation for why the university has

712
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,360
its sort of left liberal orientation, I think is more

713
00:41:33,159 --> 00:41:39,239
is more related to actual ideology, you know, the Frankfort

714
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:43,199
actually the Frankfurt School, actual critical theory as opposed to

715
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:47,239
like what happens in corporations, which is just like this

716
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:51,440
sort of you know, as we started with persistent yet

717
00:41:51,639 --> 00:41:53,079
not entirely sincere.

718
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,280
Speaker 8: Yeah, there's there's something too that I want to go

719
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:02,079
back to something you said earlier and I realized horrible podcasting,

720
00:42:02,079 --> 00:42:03,800
But you know what, it's my show, my name's on it,

721
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:08,440
so we do it whatever I want. That said, you

722
00:42:08,519 --> 00:42:12,519
make the distinction between the kind of left wing and

723
00:42:12,599 --> 00:42:15,320
right wing vision and your description kind of smacks of

724
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:17,440
Thomas Soul to me, right, the idea of the constrained

725
00:42:17,519 --> 00:42:21,920
versus the unconstrained vision, or the tragic versus the utopian.

726
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:23,760
I can't remember what his half of that diet is,

727
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,800
but point is, I think that even in that you

728
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:32,519
see a common thread between both the kind of priors

729
00:42:32,599 --> 00:42:37,679
of liberal academics and I mean capital L liberal, and

730
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:42,039
then also with the you know, the DEI kind of

731
00:42:42,039 --> 00:42:48,599
business model, because both of them place a primacy on training, right,

732
00:42:48,639 --> 00:42:52,000
the idea that you can fundamentally change people through the

733
00:42:52,039 --> 00:42:56,159
application of training, basically either forcing someone to sit through

734
00:42:56,159 --> 00:42:58,880
a seminar. And of course the versions that you and

735
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,480
I see of this are kind of the cartoonish, right,

736
00:43:01,559 --> 00:43:05,599
the billboard that says, you know, stop raping women. It's like, okay, well,

737
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,760
does does any you know, violent park rapist particularly care

738
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,599
about this being you know, wrong or incorrect? And that's silly.

739
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,119
But you see the same thing in other areas as well,

740
00:43:15,119 --> 00:43:19,000
the idea that man can fundamentally be transformed through the

741
00:43:19,079 --> 00:43:23,679
application of technique into something different, He can be improved.

742
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,000
And obviously, you know, capital L liberals from another era

743
00:43:27,039 --> 00:43:30,440
would have a much more reasonable view of that ability

744
00:43:30,519 --> 00:43:34,440
to transform man from a lower to a higher status.

745
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,440
They might have said, but you see the same idea

746
00:43:37,559 --> 00:43:41,960
sort of echoed dimly in the idea of diversity training,

747
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,199
This idea that you know, racism is this sort of

748
00:43:44,519 --> 00:43:47,679
you know, inherent invisible force, but it can be pulled

749
00:43:47,679 --> 00:43:50,800
out of you. And look are their true believers? Are

750
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,400
their synics with regard to that premise one hundred percent?

751
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:57,400
But I think that that's an interesting sort of shared

752
00:43:57,599 --> 00:44:02,360
prior in both the idea of fectibility of man, that

753
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:06,000
you can transform man from being flawed and understand that

754
00:44:06,079 --> 00:44:09,639
the classic liberals and the modern you know, Wolkesers have

755
00:44:09,639 --> 00:44:11,920
a very different understanding of what it both means to

756
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,280
be flawed and then perfected. But I think that's an

757
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:19,480
interesting kind of shared like load bearing premise. Do you

758
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:21,519
see what I'm getting at, Sean, Yeah.

759
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:21,639
Speaker 9: I do.

760
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 10: I like your toying with this idea of training and

761
00:44:25,519 --> 00:44:28,199
what can we really get out of training? I guess

762
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:30,360
I would just push back a little bit and ask,

763
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:37,039
you know, do they really believe that they're training your

764
00:44:37,119 --> 00:44:40,960
essential your rapist? The rape billboard idea is about, right,

765
00:44:41,079 --> 00:44:44,559
do we really believe that our training is changing people's

766
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:48,239
way of thinking, or are these training programs just providing

767
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,039
jobs for our ideological friends, in other words, a form

768
00:44:51,079 --> 00:44:55,760
of patronage. And I think a lot of training programs,

769
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,440
a lot of the diversocrat stuff, is really just patronage

770
00:44:59,599 --> 00:45:03,559
for that the team, And once you understand it in

771
00:45:03,599 --> 00:45:07,039
that way, it's hard to take it very seriously. But

772
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:09,480
on the subject of training, there's a there's a case

773
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,000
that drives me crazy. So this is a case on

774
00:45:12,039 --> 00:45:13,960
the in the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals in Florida,

775
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,199
and it's about a diversity training program. So Governor DeSantis

776
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,320
in Florida had passed a law that said something like

777
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:24,519
you couldn't corporations couldn't force their employees to attend training

778
00:45:24,559 --> 00:45:26,519
woke training, I think it was diversity training or some

779
00:45:26,599 --> 00:45:29,920
kind of training. You couldn't force your employees to attend

780
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,480
the training, and so you know, if they didn't want

781
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:34,719
to attend, they didn't have to attend.

782
00:45:35,599 --> 00:45:39,039
Speaker 9: Period. That was the law. And so some corporation the.

783
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:41,760
Speaker 10: Title of the case is Honey Fund versus Something, State

784
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:46,119
of Florida, and some corporation that was that wanted to

785
00:45:46,159 --> 00:45:49,880
hold the training sued the State of Florida and said,

786
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,840
you're this rule that says I can't force all of

787
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,760
my employees to attend this training violates my First Amendment

788
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:03,360
speech rights and and spoiler alert, the company wins and

789
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:05,840
defeats the State of Florida in this case. Now what

790
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,480
that means is that, according to the eleven Circuit Court

791
00:46:08,519 --> 00:46:14,320
of Appeals, the speech rights of the corporation, which isn't

792
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:18,280
it's an artificial entity, right, it's not, it doesn't exist.

793
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,719
The speech rights of the corporation itself trump the citizen

794
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,559
rights of the citizens of Florida that the governor was

795
00:46:25,559 --> 00:46:29,079
trying to protect from being sort of you know, ideologic,

796
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:34,519
you know, propagandized by the court by the training program

797
00:46:35,039 --> 00:46:37,719
to not have to hear the message, to be free

798
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:39,960
from that sort of a thing. And I think that's

799
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,159
a whole that's a whole, separate area of Like, the

800
00:46:43,199 --> 00:46:47,639
managerial problem in our society is the extent of the power,

801
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:54,079
including legal power, constitutional rights power, that corporations have. So

802
00:46:54,119 --> 00:46:57,559
you take this giant managerial corporation, the quasi public corporation

803
00:46:58,159 --> 00:47:02,000
that Burleian means and Burnham identify, and you.

804
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,119
Speaker 9: Give it like close to the.

805
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 10: Full citizen constitutional rights of a of a person and

806
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:11,679
then just set it free, uh uh, to wreak havoc

807
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:15,320
on the on the society. That's sort of the state

808
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:17,920
we're in. I think the reason why I think it

809
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:22,039
is important to think about managerialism and in the corporate

810
00:47:22,159 --> 00:47:26,679
context is that it allows you to see corporations as

811
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:29,960
potentially as much of a problem as the administrative state,

812
00:47:30,159 --> 00:47:33,440
and specifically, it allows conservatives to see them as a

813
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:37,599
problem like liberals have seen have seen corporations as problematic

814
00:47:37,639 --> 00:47:40,920
for a long time, mostly for wealthy whatever reasons, and

815
00:47:41,159 --> 00:47:45,320
their their critiques are not entirely crazy, but conservatives have

816
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,679
trouble right the the the alliance between big business and

817
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:52,920
the Republican Party is an ancient and honorable alliance, right,

818
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:56,400
And but I think that the conservatives need to see

819
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,960
that these corporations aren't very conservative and and if you're

820
00:48:00,159 --> 00:48:03,679
just going to default to protecting big corporate rights as

821
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:08,639
a political matter, you're not protecting conservatives.

822
00:48:10,559 --> 00:48:13,599
Speaker 8: Well, and that's sort of an interesting thing you bring up,

823
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:18,880
because you see this constantly that conservatives are and I

824
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:22,719
think that this especially post twenty twenty, with the emergence

825
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:28,039
of honestly the discussion around esg. The discussion around that

826
00:48:28,079 --> 00:48:35,000
phrase the public private partnership, that that diad of capitalism v.

827
00:48:35,199 --> 00:48:39,880
Socialism has really broken down because we're not The system

828
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:44,079
we have currently has really almost no relation to a

829
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:48,719
sort of an cap capitalist system anymore. Right, Like, Okay, sure,

830
00:48:49,079 --> 00:48:52,960
you know, Raytheon isn't literally part of the government, But

831
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:55,199
I mean, would it really be that much of a

832
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,800
change if we just did what the Russians did right

833
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,400
and made it a state owned corporation A functionally there's

834
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:03,679
not that big of a difference. And I see exactly

835
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:05,760
what you're talking about, which is people on the right

836
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:10,360
who understand this problem, who understand that this segment has

837
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:15,000
become an ideological enemy, but lack the lack the language

838
00:49:15,679 --> 00:49:18,320
to address it, last lack the language to discuss it.

839
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,760
And some of it. I think that role has been

840
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,159
taken up, although you see less of this now by

841
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:27,360
kind of the you know, the the wef tinfoil hat

842
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,960
kook stuff. Right, that's a way to address that. And look,

843
00:49:31,159 --> 00:49:33,159
I'm not going to pretend that I like Klaus Schwab,

844
00:49:33,559 --> 00:49:38,559
but I don't necessarily take the maximalist view of his abilities.

845
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:43,199
But nonetheless I think that's a very important project because ultimately,

846
00:49:44,639 --> 00:49:48,000
if you could right, if you could could smash the

847
00:49:48,119 --> 00:49:51,519
education system, you know, route them into the sea, right

848
00:49:51,519 --> 00:49:54,760
in sort of a cone and the barbarian esque move like, sure,

849
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:59,559
that would be positive from an ideological perspective. I'm speaking hyperbolically,

850
00:49:59,559 --> 00:50:02,719
of course, but that still doesn't solve this other problem,

851
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:07,519
which is everyone works for a company that has ultimately

852
00:50:07,559 --> 00:50:10,039
the same teleology, right is pointed in the same direction,

853
00:50:10,079 --> 00:50:12,960
at the same set of values. And I think that

854
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,000
that's why this needs to be addressed. And again going

855
00:50:16,039 --> 00:50:19,079
back to that false dichotomy, the idea that the only

856
00:50:19,199 --> 00:50:21,440
way you can oppose big business is if you are

857
00:50:21,599 --> 00:50:25,039
secretly woke, which is something you see from you know,

858
00:50:25,079 --> 00:50:28,599
alleged conservative influencers constantly. This idea that if you have

859
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:31,920
any issue with you know, big corporations, if you have

860
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:36,320
any issue with this managerial system, that you are communist

861
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:39,639
in some ways is laughable and to be honest, needs

862
00:50:39,679 --> 00:50:43,400
to just be driven out of you know, the public

863
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:47,039
conversation is not a serious uh, not a serious point there.

864
00:50:47,599 --> 00:50:51,119
So one of the things that I think is important

865
00:50:51,119 --> 00:50:55,519
to address with this right is, uh, how how do

866
00:50:55,559 --> 00:51:00,000
you how do you to lack of a better term.

867
00:51:00,039 --> 00:51:02,039
How do you market this? Because look like this has

868
00:51:02,079 --> 00:51:05,519
been a very heady academic conversation. We're citing our sources.

869
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:09,440
How do you explain this without going into to be honest,

870
00:51:09,599 --> 00:51:13,320
fairly grim domes from one hundred years ago?

871
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 9: Right?

872
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 8: Look, I may enjoy reading Burdam quite a lot, but

873
00:51:18,199 --> 00:51:20,360
you know it's not Stephen King. It's not exactly a

874
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:22,760
page turner. So how do you express that in a

875
00:51:23,119 --> 00:51:26,119
simple mass market for Well.

876
00:51:26,039 --> 00:51:28,679
Speaker 10: So there's a I hope everyone on this podcast will

877
00:51:28,679 --> 00:51:30,800
read my essay. But there's another great essay, and I'm

878
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:33,519
sure you've talked about it before. That's the NS Lions

879
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:37,440
essay I forget the China convergence or something it's called.

880
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:40,360
And he basically in that essay makes the point that

881
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:43,880
you were making, which is, what's the difference between this big,

882
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:48,559
publicly American corporation versus a state controlled Chinese company?

883
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 9: And there's not.

884
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:51,800
Speaker 10: Much of a difference. And the reason that there's not

885
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:54,360
much of a difference in his argument as well, is

886
00:51:54,440 --> 00:52:00,159
managerialism is the common denominator. It explains both of them.

887
00:52:00,519 --> 00:52:02,360
I think that you're right about the question of how

888
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:04,360
do we pitch this to the audience that's hard to

889
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:08,199
get at. I want to respond to that, but I

890
00:52:08,199 --> 00:52:10,800
want to sort of get there in this maybe circuitous way.

891
00:52:12,599 --> 00:52:14,679
You know, some people say there's a civil war on

892
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:18,880
the right, and there's some truth to that around all

893
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:21,519
sorts of topics, and I don't like to think of

894
00:52:21,559 --> 00:52:24,000
it as a civil war. I guess what I would

895
00:52:24,039 --> 00:52:27,159
say is that the right is more intellectually interesting.

896
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:32,440
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897
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:37,519
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898
00:52:37,599 --> 00:52:41,400
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899
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:44,280
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903
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:58,239
moves You saw it.

904
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:01,199
Speaker 5: It was just a moment, but you saw how her

905
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:06,639
smile fell, her word slipped, slurred, but straightened again. She

906
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:10,320
said she was fine. So you waited, But a stroke

907
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:14,719
doesn't wait. You don't need all the signs. One is enough,

908
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:20,679
remember fast face arms, speech time. The second you suspect

909
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:23,280
a stroke is the second you dial nine nine nine

910
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:26,800
or one one two search HS stroke for more from

911
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:27,559
the HS.

912
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 10: First of all than the left. That has probably always

913
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,360
been true, but it is more intellectually stimulating now than

914
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,039
it has ever been really in my professional life. Like,

915
00:53:36,079 --> 00:53:40,239
there are different kinds of arguments being raised on the

916
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:42,920
right that that would not have been raised in a

917
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:47,519
prior generation. And that's exciting, frankly. And I think part

918
00:53:47,519 --> 00:53:52,079
of the problem about how to express the relationship of

919
00:53:52,119 --> 00:53:57,480
conservatives to big business goes to what what is the

920
00:53:57,639 --> 00:54:00,000
what is our what is our identity as a conservative?

921
00:54:00,079 --> 00:54:01,519
Or what does it mean to be on the right?

922
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:03,280
And I think there are all kinds of answers to

923
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,280
that right, Like there's a lot of people who want

924
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:10,639
to just like go back to neutral principles of like

925
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:13,920
I don't like the kind of liberalism, the kind of

926
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:18,320
right liberalism, like libertarianism, or like the version of liberalism

927
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:22,199
that's just free market capitalism and do whatever you want, right.

928
00:54:22,559 --> 00:54:25,159
And then there's the kind of right, the kind of

929
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:29,880
conservatism that says, look, that's that's that's maybe an okay

930
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:33,800
intermediate spot, but that's not really conservative because if it's

931
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:36,239
just do whatever you want, it's hard to distinguish that

932
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:39,400
from like, you know, the heart wants what it wants

933
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:43,639
and the you know, the decline of civilization, and so

934
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:45,960
what we really need to do is reorient ourselves towards

935
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:48,599
the good and there's some other source for that other

936
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:51,800
than what we want right now, and that's another kind

937
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:56,440
of conservatism. I think this question goes to that. Right,

938
00:54:56,480 --> 00:55:00,280
if we're just orienting ourselves back towards libertarianism, we're not

939
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:02,519
going to get out of managerialism. There's no way out

940
00:55:02,519 --> 00:55:04,639
of it. And there's no way to persuade people that

941
00:55:04,679 --> 00:55:06,519
it's even a problem, because they'll just say that the

942
00:55:06,559 --> 00:55:10,119
market will self correct. By the way, when libertarians say that,

943
00:55:10,199 --> 00:55:12,719
when they say, look, I hear what you're saying, Griffith, Yeah,

944
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:16,239
it looks terrible that these things are woke, but the market.

945
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:16,599
Speaker 9: Will fix it.

946
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:19,239
Speaker 10: And then I say, well, look, the market hasn't fixed it,

947
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:22,880
and the market isn't going to fix it because these corporations,

948
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:25,599
the big ones, they're connected with the state and they

949
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:29,079
protect themselves from entry. So how's the market going to

950
00:55:29,079 --> 00:55:31,280
fix that? And they say, well, the market would fix

951
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,639
it if it was just a free market. The problem

952
00:55:33,679 --> 00:55:35,800
is that we don't really have a free market, and

953
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:39,320
then they sound like socialists who basically have never seen

954
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:41,440
socialism right every time you explain.

955
00:55:41,159 --> 00:55:43,679
Speaker 8: It, every time, markets have never been tried right.

956
00:55:43,599 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 9: Exactly exactly.

957
00:55:45,639 --> 00:55:49,599
Speaker 10: So I think that if you're if your preferred regime

958
00:55:49,679 --> 00:55:53,119
can't exist in reality, it's not a good argument, right.

959
00:55:53,199 --> 00:55:55,280
Speaker 9: And so basically.

960
00:55:56,679 --> 00:55:58,159
Speaker 10: I think we have to find a way to bring

961
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:02,239
back to bring people to to a place beyond liberalism.

962
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:04,760
I mean, I think that's basically the most interesting conversation

963
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:08,840
on our side. That's complicated, right, how do you say that.

964
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 9: To enormy I don't know.

965
00:56:11,639 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 10: I'm trying to find a way to sneakily say it

966
00:56:13,519 --> 00:56:15,039
to law students, but you know.

967
00:56:15,519 --> 00:56:18,039
Speaker 9: But not say it directly. So it's hard to know

968
00:56:18,079 --> 00:56:19,199
the answer to those questions.

969
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:21,440
Speaker 8: Well, look, good luck on that. I don't envy you

970
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:25,000
at that project, but I share your diagnosis. I genuinely

971
00:56:25,039 --> 00:56:29,039
think that the right currently is the most not only

972
00:56:29,079 --> 00:56:32,519
is it the most interesting conversation currently happening, but it's

973
00:56:32,559 --> 00:56:35,920
also the most interesting conversation that has happened in public

974
00:56:36,159 --> 00:56:38,000
in my entire life. I mean, look, it's part of

975
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:41,800
the reason why I started using my face and made

976
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:43,760
this what I do because I believe it. I think

977
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:49,000
there's interesting things happening. I think that to your point

978
00:56:49,079 --> 00:56:55,000
about the kind of to be honest, the irrationality of

979
00:56:55,400 --> 00:57:00,000
the kind of libertarian economics, to me, I find it very,

980
00:57:00,119 --> 00:57:04,679
very frustrating, because and Jesus, this is a space on

981
00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:08,679
the bingo card for watching my show. But David French

982
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:12,320
recently put out a piece the New York Times called

983
00:57:13,079 --> 00:57:15,840
what happens if you refuse to admit that America is

984
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:17,760
in decline? Or something like that, you'll be able to

985
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:21,760
find it, And I wrote a piece responding to it

986
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:25,840
because what's interesting to me about it is this sort

987
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:32,199
of selective application of certain lines of attack. So for instance,

988
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:35,800
he is talking about, you know, the new right, and

989
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:39,679
he accuses them of nostalgia, right, you long for a

990
00:57:39,719 --> 00:57:43,519
world which never existed, And then the whole last third

991
00:57:43,559 --> 00:57:45,800
of the piece is saying, well, I just I long

992
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:48,480
for the days of the conservative movement of the eighties

993
00:57:48,519 --> 00:57:51,599
and nineties. Was everything so grand then, where men were

994
00:57:51,639 --> 00:57:54,760
wise and august and weren't into you know, partisan politics.

995
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:57,679
So there's some hypocrisy there, but you see a very

996
00:57:57,679 --> 00:58:01,599
similar thing with that attitude towards social right. The meme

997
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:04,280
if we can use that term of real socialism has

998
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:06,800
never been tried. I mean, look, you can buy a

999
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:09,360
t shirt that says that from you know, any number

1000
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:13,000
of you know, Republican T shirt shops. It's fully entered

1001
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:16,320
into the culture. But very many of those same people

1002
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:19,760
will talk about the free market and it's like, well, okay,

1003
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:23,599
like do the free market of when, like the free

1004
00:58:23,639 --> 00:58:26,639
market of four years ago? Well, I mean that wasn't

1005
00:58:26,679 --> 00:58:30,239
really a free market. Again, this shore, the federal government

1006
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:32,239
wasn't quite as big as it is now, but it

1007
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:35,679
was still giant. It was huge, and you know, even

1008
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:40,239
companies like IBM, you know, maybe Boeing, any number of

1009
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:44,880
these corporations existed in relation to the government. This public

1010
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:48,400
private partnership was not as advanced as it currently is now.

1011
00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:51,880
But simply, you know, rolling the boulder off your own

1012
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:54,159
foot and further up the hill only to let it

1013
00:58:54,199 --> 00:58:58,159
go again does not solve this problem. And look, I'm

1014
00:58:58,159 --> 00:59:01,519
being dismissive to conservatives and being dismissive towards these arguments,

1015
00:59:01,679 --> 00:59:03,599
not because I hate them, not because I disliked them,

1016
00:59:03,599 --> 00:59:07,320
far from it. But this is a losing playbook, Like

1017
00:59:07,599 --> 00:59:11,000
we have tried and failed at this project before, and

1018
00:59:11,039 --> 00:59:14,800
so to your point, like, you can't simply put your

1019
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:17,599
head in the head in the sand and pretend as

1020
00:59:17,679 --> 00:59:20,440
if we are back in the Cold War, where we

1021
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:23,880
can neatly divide the line between you know, the Pinko's

1022
00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:26,159
on one side and the you know, the patriots on

1023
00:59:26,199 --> 00:59:29,800
the other. Like, look like I understand the appeal. There's

1024
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:32,760
a certain amount of moral clarity. It's easy to dismiss,

1025
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:36,079
but as you said, it's simply not a strong argument,

1026
00:59:36,239 --> 00:59:40,599
and clearly it does not lead to positive political results.

1027
00:59:42,199 --> 00:59:44,920
Speaker 10: You know, they should sell t shirts that say socialism

1028
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:47,280
has never been tried on one side, and then free

1029
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:50,920
market capitalism has never been tried on the other side.

1030
00:59:50,599 --> 00:59:53,239
Then you know, it would be the truest T shirt

1031
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:56,719
that has ever existed. You know what, if I could

1032
00:59:56,760 --> 01:00:00,000
just indulge in a little nostalgia myself, you're mentioning French's nostage,

1033
01:00:00,159 --> 01:00:02,800
you know, I would I would say the era of

1034
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:07,679
bourgeois capitalism right where where companies were set up by

1035
01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:13,679
capitalists in in local communities with employees who and and

1036
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:16,599
a community that was also the consumers, right where everything

1037
01:00:16,679 --> 01:00:19,079
was kind of like I think what I would say

1038
01:00:19,159 --> 01:00:20,679
and I do say at the end of my essay

1039
01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:25,119
is that like the managerial corporation is is the is

1040
01:00:25,159 --> 01:00:29,519
the enemy of bourgeois capitalism, is the enemy of local business,

1041
01:00:29,599 --> 01:00:31,000
is the enemy of small business.

1042
01:00:31,559 --> 01:00:31,800
Speaker 9: Uh.

1043
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:35,000
Speaker 10: And that's that's where I think our conservative sympathies should be.

1044
01:00:35,079 --> 01:00:37,679
Like there they should be with the local business owners

1045
01:00:37,719 --> 01:00:39,920
who are really in the community, who are who are

1046
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:42,559
members of the community, who don't come in from some

1047
01:00:42,639 --> 01:00:45,280
other state or some other country. Uh and you know,

1048
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:50,159
dump product on us or you know, extract whatever. I

1049
01:00:50,199 --> 01:00:53,920
think that's the that's that's the that's maybe the place

1050
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:56,960
where the alliance between the right and business can be.

1051
01:00:57,079 --> 01:01:00,000
I mean, it seems to me that the whole idea

1052
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:04,440
of the republic is that the self governing middle class, right,

1053
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:06,639
And it seems like the self governing middle class they

1054
01:01:06,639 --> 01:01:11,519
do things like run small businesses, like podcasts, like doctors' offices,

1055
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:14,800
like whatever. Like that's and that seems like the alliance

1056
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:18,119
between where the alliance between business and the conservatives should be.

1057
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:20,719
It probably should not be at the level of the

1058
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:22,039
multinational corporation.

1059
01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:27,159
Speaker 8: Rashan, we are fast approaching time. Obviously, I will have

1060
01:01:27,559 --> 01:01:30,679
your very excellent article linked. I think everyone should read it.

1061
01:01:31,559 --> 01:01:33,960
You may notice we kind of jumped around. This is

1062
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:36,039
not a reading of this article. There's still a lot

1063
01:01:36,079 --> 01:01:38,760
to be gotten from actually sitting down and scrolling through it.

1064
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:41,559
It's well written, it's easy to read. Highly recommend it.

1065
01:01:41,679 --> 01:01:43,719
But where else can people find you? And where can

1066
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:44,440
they find your work?

1067
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 10: Well, you know, I'm not a highly online individual. I

1068
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:50,559
have a bunch of really boring law review articles that

1069
01:01:50,559 --> 01:01:54,440
anyone could find on my SSRN website, and if anyone

1070
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:56,480
downloads and reads it, it will be you and my mother

1071
01:01:56,519 --> 01:01:57,679
who have read those articles.

1072
01:01:57,719 --> 01:01:59,440
Speaker 9: So thank you if you do that.

1073
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:02,039
Speaker 10: But I love it if people read the chronicles essay,

1074
01:02:02,079 --> 01:02:03,960
and I hope they find it interesting.

1075
01:02:05,119 --> 01:02:07,639
Speaker 8: This may come back to haunt me, but my mother

1076
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:10,840
has literally no idea what I do, and I'm not

1077
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:14,599
particularly interested in telling her. But she'll find out one day.

1078
01:02:16,079 --> 01:02:19,079
Hi Mom. But yeah, like I said, I highly recommend

1079
01:02:19,119 --> 01:02:21,480
this article. It's quite good. Thank you for sharing it

1080
01:02:21,519 --> 01:02:25,559
with me. As far as my stuff, the Jay Burdens Show, Apple, Spotify, YouTube,

1081
01:02:25,599 --> 01:02:28,159
anywhere you want to listen to podcasts. As I've said before,

1082
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:30,880
this is what I do and I depend on your support.

1083
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:33,239
You want to throw me a few bucks a month.

1084
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:36,079
I think I'm at the lowest setting on every site.

1085
01:02:36,159 --> 01:02:39,159
It's like five bucks or twenty two cents a show.

1086
01:02:39,519 --> 01:02:41,239
You get the episodes early in ad free. I know

1087
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:44,039
the ads are irritating, but they pay my mortgage. And

1088
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:47,239
let me tell you, modern interest rates mean that that

1089
01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:49,920
is much more of a project than it would be otherwise.

1090
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:52,199
But that said, thank you guys so much. The podcast

1091
01:02:52,239 --> 01:02:54,519
has been growing and I couldn't do it without you guys.

1092
01:02:54,719 --> 01:02:57,320
Also check out our sponsor Axios Remote Fitness Coaching. I

1093
01:02:57,400 --> 01:02:58,960
was just talking to JD the guy who owns it

1094
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:02,360
earlier today is an other small businessman who you should support.

1095
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:05,960
Makes a good product, and yeah, we're friends. It's another

1096
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:07,960
good reason again, Sean Man, it was great to have

1097
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:08,159
you on.

1098
01:03:08,719 --> 01:03:10,039
Speaker 9: Thanks Jay, it was a lot of fun.

1099
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:13,679
Speaker 8: Everyone at home, keep your head up. I can't last forever.

1100
01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:33,079
Speaker 3: Good night.

1101
01:03:46,159 --> 01:03:48,519
Speaker 6: You hurl your hearts out for the people who know

1102
01:03:48,639 --> 01:03:52,880
you inside out giants on the football, which make everyone

1103
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:55,039
who knows them feel ten feet tall.

1104
01:03:55,639 --> 01:03:57,960
Speaker 13: When you put the ball over the bar, you put

1105
01:03:58,000 --> 01:03:59,199
the pirates on the map.

1106
01:03:59,639 --> 01:04:01,599
Speaker 9: And man, sixty minutes.

1107
01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:06,920
Speaker 3: Give me a whole town's finest store, because when it's Club.

1108
01:04:07,559 --> 01:04:08,639
Speaker 8: It lives forever.

1109
01:04:09,559 --> 01:04:14,119
Speaker 13: This is the aiv GAA Club Championships GAA where we

1110
01:04:14,239 --> 01:04:14,920
all alone.

1111
01:04:16,039 --> 01:04:18,199
Speaker 11: I know what you're feeling, and I was there too,

1112
01:04:20,519 --> 01:04:22,800
and I know you might think that there is nobody

1113
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:25,440
to talk to, but I promise that you're not alone.

1114
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:30,480
It was never your fault and you deserve support and

1115
01:04:30,559 --> 01:04:35,400
healing in your own time. Whenever you're ready to talk,

1116
01:04:35,719 --> 01:04:38,840
Dublin Rape Crisis Center will be ready to listen. Called

1117
01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:41,960
the twenty four hour National Helpline on one eight hundred

1118
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:43,559
seven seven.

1119
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:44,719
Speaker 6: Eight eight eight eight.

1120
01:04:46,079 --> 01:04:50,280
Speaker 18: Shake off the January jail with Tradfest Ireland celebration of

1121
01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:51,559
trad and folk music.

1122
01:04:51,719 --> 01:04:53,320
Speaker 14: This year, experience.

1123
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:58,360
Speaker 18: Eleanor McAvoy, Sharon Shannon, Hothouse, Flowers, Something Happens, Steve Ward, Monday,

1124
01:04:58,480 --> 01:05:03,400
Gila Alton, Ralph Tell, Frankie Gavin and Moore in Dublin's cathedrals,

1125
01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:06,840
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1126
01:05:06,920 --> 01:05:10,599
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1127
01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:13,519
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