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<v Speaker 1>You see somethings going to happen.

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<v Speaker 2>What's going to happen?

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<v Speaker 3>What I.

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<v Speaker 4>Welcome back to the occult rejects. Tonight we're welcoming back

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<v Speaker 4>a returning guests and a fan favorite, someone our audience

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<v Speaker 4>already knows that brings real substance when the conversation turns serious, complex,

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<v Speaker 4>and deep into the tradition. Tonight we're joined once again

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<v Speaker 4>by Freda RCI. Freda RC has become a respected voice

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<v Speaker 4>for many students of Western ESO terrorism because he has

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<v Speaker 4>a rail ability to take material that is often buried

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<v Speaker 4>under fear confusion into that mythology and sensationalism and bring

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<v Speaker 4>it back into a serious, initiatory and historical frame. And

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<v Speaker 4>that is exactly what makes him the right guess for

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<v Speaker 4>tonight's subject, because tonight we're stepping into one of the

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<v Speaker 4>most charged and misunderstood territories and occultism, the clipoff. This

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<v Speaker 4>is one of those subjects that people love to reference,

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<v Speaker 4>love to speculate about, and very often do not actually understand.

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<v Speaker 4>Depending on the system, the clipoff is are described as shells, husks,

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<v Speaker 4>shattered vessels, this shadow or inverse side of the tree,

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<v Speaker 4>fallen emanations, and pure powers or initiatory zones of descent.

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<v Speaker 4>For some, it is a path of confront confrontation, and transformation.

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<v Speaker 4>For others, it is spiritually dangerous territory that has been

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<v Speaker 4>glamorized far beyond wisdom. And that is where tonight's conversation begins.

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<v Speaker 4>What is the clipoff really? What does the idea come

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<v Speaker 4>from historically? How does it develop from Jewish mystical thought

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<v Speaker 4>into later occult systems. Is it truly a map of evil?

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<v Speaker 4>Or is it that? Or is it that far too simplistic?

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<v Speaker 4>What happens when modern practitioners approach it without grounding, without context,

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<v Speaker 4>or without understanding what tradition originally meant by the forces?

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<v Speaker 4>And why has the clip off become such a magnetic

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<v Speaker 4>subject in modern occultism. Tonight we're going to slow the

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<v Speaker 4>whole thing down. We're going to separate symbolism from projection,

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<v Speaker 4>tradition from invention, in serious initiatory discussion from aestheticized darkness.

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<v Speaker 4>So once again we're returning us, once once again, returning

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<v Speaker 4>to the o cult rejects as a fan favorite. We

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<v Speaker 4>got fred er RC. But before I introduce him and

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<v Speaker 4>the rest of the panel, I do have an announcement

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<v Speaker 4>I like to make On Saturday, April twenty fifth, the

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<v Speaker 4>Southeastern Masonic Symposium is happening at the Asheville Masonic Temple

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<v Speaker 4>and that is at eighty Broadway Street in Asheville, North Carolina,

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<v Speaker 4>and I will be there in person, So come on

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<v Speaker 4>down and meet me and the rest of the crew

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<v Speaker 4>and the people speaking. We will have John Michael Greer,

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<v Speaker 4>he will be there. We got a guy who's been

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<v Speaker 4>on the show a few times will be coming on

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<v Speaker 4>in the future, Colin Conkright from American Esoteric. And we

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<v Speaker 4>got the man himself, Ike Baker from our Candem podcast.

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<v Speaker 4>He will be there. And Tom Carter. So come on down.

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<v Speaker 4>It should be a blast. And also want to remind

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<v Speaker 4>people about the website if you're into reading. We have

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<v Speaker 4>tons of information by multiple contributors and we got t

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<v Speaker 4>shirts up on the site if you're interested and fun fact,

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<v Speaker 4>the art is all based on the eyeball. Now let

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<v Speaker 4>me introduce the rest of the panel and the guests.

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<v Speaker 4>Judith the Loom, what is going on? How are you.

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<v Speaker 5>Hello?

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you for having me, Welcome back, Grey to RC

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<v Speaker 3>and everyone else. You could catch me on YouTube and

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<v Speaker 3>on x as the loom and I've just started the

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<v Speaker 3>podcast with special editions on Spreaker, so you can catch

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<v Speaker 3>me there too.

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<v Speaker 4>Thank you awesome, Thank you very much Judith and my

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<v Speaker 4>man Jinda Ninja. It's been a bit so happy to

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<v Speaker 4>have you back, sir. How are you?

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<v Speaker 2>What's up, boss mister ninety three? I am quite well.

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<v Speaker 2>I have to say if people want to thank you

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<v Speaker 2>for having me on and thank you Judith, Matt and

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<v Speaker 2>freder RC appreciate it. So I have a show called

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<v Speaker 2>Threshold saying I'm just going to read what someone recently

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<v Speaker 2>wrote about it because it was quite a good review.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm proud of it. Really really great episode. Never seen

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<v Speaker 2>this podcast before, but it's like Martyr Made Across with

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<v Speaker 2>Terrence McKenna meets cipherpunk, chaos, magic, schizophosting. Really good. So

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<v Speaker 2>that is in reference to my latest three part series

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<v Speaker 2>with Satchke, who is a Jewish cabalist, his sern researcher,

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<v Speaker 2>inventor of crystal quantum computing. He does loms and AI

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<v Speaker 2>and all this tech stuff, and he draws a lot

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<v Speaker 2>from Robert Anton Wilson and like the Discordions as well

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<v Speaker 2>as a Jewish coubala. So we had a like eight

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<v Speaker 2>and a half hour discussion and I cut it up

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<v Speaker 2>into three episodes which are about only an hour and

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<v Speaker 2>a half each, but they're all different, and so if

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<v Speaker 2>you're interested in something like that, I also released an

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<v Speaker 2>episode with bead Sillerno on the Dark Crystal film from

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty two, as well as I have an episode

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<v Speaker 2>with Ike Baker coming out either tonight or so everybody

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<v Speaker 2>can look for that, and thank you guys so much.

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<v Speaker 2>And we will have a Gray Lodge space probably this Friday,

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<v Speaker 2>so I just I'll shout that out right now live.

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<v Speaker 2>So if you're interested in that, check us out. You

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<v Speaker 2>can follow me at wukomri born, wq wh and g

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<v Speaker 2>Reborn or at the Threshold Saints on X and I

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<v Speaker 2>G and as well my Subseac Threshold Saints at subseact

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<v Speaker 2>dot com and at the True Gray Lodge dot com

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<v Speaker 2>t r V, which Matt Mura is obviously the webmaster

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<v Speaker 2>and our social media web coordinator. Thank you so much, Matt,

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<v Speaker 2>and so yeah, everybody can check us out. Thank you

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<v Speaker 2>guys so much.

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<v Speaker 4>Oh yeah, thank you very much. And again I'm glad

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<v Speaker 4>you're here, especially with this topic. And Matt my man

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<v Speaker 4>so happy to get you on again. What is up, Bud?

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<v Speaker 6>What is up?

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<v Speaker 7>Happy to be here again, Glad to see proder once again, Jim,

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<v Speaker 7>you and Judith. As always, you can find me as

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<v Speaker 7>at mettmore nineteen. That's going to be on all socials, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok,

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<v Speaker 7>maybe some other places Twitter and so on and so on.

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<v Speaker 7>And yeah, I've been working in the shadows on some stuff,

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<v Speaker 7>one of them being the GA Mood project. So if

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<v Speaker 7>you want to learn more, enter the mood dot com

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<v Speaker 7>or just dm me you know, explain. But very cool

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<v Speaker 7>stuff going on there. Uh recent update and again yes,

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<v Speaker 7>Also there's a library that I've been using a lot,

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<v Speaker 7>especially with AI. If you have Claude you can use it.

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<v Speaker 7>It's a library I made called Cabala k A A

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<v Speaker 7>B A L A H. I've been using a lot

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<v Speaker 7>for transits for example. It can copulate the transits for

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<v Speaker 7>me very quickly and then it can interpret them. But yeah,

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<v Speaker 7>super nice stuff. Again, do you have any questions about that,

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<v Speaker 7>Just them me on any of those and I'll quickly

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<v Speaker 7>let you know how it goes.

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<v Speaker 4>Awesome. Thank you very much, Matt, and again I'm glad

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<v Speaker 4>you here. Finally the man himself. Frida, please let everybody

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<v Speaker 4>know where they can find all of your work and

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<v Speaker 4>anything you'd like to promote.

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<v Speaker 6>So you can find me at Hermetic Mystery School dot

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<v Speaker 6>com for learning spirituality and magic and theorgy, or for

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<v Speaker 6>just being part of my free community there called a

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<v Speaker 6>cyber Guild, and we have a fun now and then

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<v Speaker 6>with some free lectures and other resources. Hermetic podcast dot

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<v Speaker 6>com is my podcasts and you can go there, and

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<v Speaker 6>there's Patreon and YouTube. Memberships has blown up the past

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<v Speaker 6>few months and so I've got a lot of stuff

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<v Speaker 6>there for members that is not available elsewhere, and we

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<v Speaker 6>have a good time on the new discord I made

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<v Speaker 6>due to demand at last after many years boomers style

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<v Speaker 6>and I don't know how it works, which apparently people

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<v Speaker 6>find even more adorable. So I've shared some unique stuff

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<v Speaker 6>there as well. But most importantly, I am hosting two

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<v Speaker 6>major events this year through the Arcane In Research Society,

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<v Speaker 6>which I founded back in twenty nineteen and did a

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<v Speaker 6>world tour by which by world, of course, we mean

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<v Speaker 6>Europe and America starting in Canada, and you can go

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<v Speaker 6>to our Kinresearch Society dot com Forward Slash twenty twenty

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<v Speaker 6>six for this year's events, we're a Nokia Con dot com,

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<v Speaker 6>which is the conference we'll have in Austin, Texas November

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<v Speaker 6>sixth through eighth. Our Spring Workshop has just been well,

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<v Speaker 6>I'm waiting for the final call right now to confirm

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<v Speaker 6>it in Austin on June thirteenth, and as soon as

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<v Speaker 6>I do, I'll release our video promo for that, and

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<v Speaker 6>that will be an all day workshop in a full

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<v Speaker 6>We have a great, great venue downtown Austin that we

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<v Speaker 6>have the run of, and the workshop will feature three

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<v Speaker 6>three hour workshops, one by myself on what I'm on

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<v Speaker 6>the topic of today and I'll say more about that

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<v Speaker 6>of course throughout the hour or whatever. And the other

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<v Speaker 6>two workshop presenters, I don't know what their topics of

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<v Speaker 6>will be yet for their workshops, but they're both renowned

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<v Speaker 6>presenters and authors. So those people are Jason Louve and

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<v Speaker 6>fellow Austin native Craig Williams, who's incredibly a remarkable author,

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<v Speaker 6>very prolific and a wonderful guy. So there'll be the

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<v Speaker 6>three of us there this June for our Spring Workshop.

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<v Speaker 6>And you can access both those events online or in

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<v Speaker 6>person by getting an annual membership at Arcane Research Society

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<v Speaker 6>dot com.

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<v Speaker 4>Awesome, thanks for having me, of course, Man, No, thank

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<v Speaker 4>you so much. I'm glad to get you back on

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<v Speaker 4>regardless what the topic was. Uh, all right, So I mean,

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<v Speaker 4>I guess to get into it, I mean, what would

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<v Speaker 4>you say, you know, for listeners who have heard the

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<v Speaker 4>word but don't really know what he even means, what

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<v Speaker 4>is like the clearest way to even define the clipot?

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<v Speaker 4>You want to say.

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<v Speaker 6>Literally literally as shells or husks, and the visualizations that

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<v Speaker 6>you would naturally have go along with that term is

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<v Speaker 6>are very appropriate, right, you know, the the pearl in

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<v Speaker 6>the oyster, the cephera in the oyster, in the husk

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<v Speaker 6>in the klippa, and or as a husk. You know,

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<v Speaker 6>you don't grind up husks with your grains to make food.

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<v Speaker 6>You get rid of the husk so that you can

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<v Speaker 6>find the nutrients of the grain within, unless you're like

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<v Speaker 6>me and can't eat grains. So that's the best way

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<v Speaker 6>to think of CLiPPA, by the word that the Jewish

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<v Speaker 6>mystics and rabbis use to describe it. I mean, and

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<v Speaker 6>as we know today, the significance of those Jewish mystics

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<v Speaker 6>and magicians is more significant than we ever realized. I

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<v Speaker 6>only just today received my copy of Galas Sofer's amazing

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<v Speaker 6>new academic book from Brill, which of course you have

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<v Speaker 6>to sell a kidney to purchase. I found a secondhand

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<v Speaker 6>copy for half price, only one hundred dollars. And doctor

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<v Speaker 6>Angela Puka has just putting out a video of breaking

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<v Speaker 6>this down with really great visual aids. So shout out

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<v Speaker 6>to doctor Puka for doing the heavy lifting for a

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<v Speaker 6>lot of us. But this text, for example, shows the

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<v Speaker 6>Jewish origins of the Solomonic magic tradition centered around demon workings,

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<v Speaker 6>shall we say so? The CLiPPA have often been sort

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<v Speaker 6>of thought of apart from the Solomonic or Western magical systems,

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<v Speaker 6>and something that entered late. But what gal Soofer's work

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<v Speaker 6>shows is perhaps one in One of the many things

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<v Speaker 6>it shows is that we can place a much earlier

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<v Speaker 6>understanding of the rule of clipote in the Western magical

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<v Speaker 6>traditions than previously we could before. So that's a preliminary understanding.

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<v Speaker 6>You want me to keep going. Let me say, there's

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<v Speaker 6>so many interpretations of the clippote, the CLiPPA, the cliff off,

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<v Speaker 6>and I'm going to say them. The word in every

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<v Speaker 6>possible pronunciation you can imagine, just so that no one

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<v Speaker 6>feels excluded. That would be bad. The only and if

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<v Speaker 6>anyone debate wants to debate the correct way to spell

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<v Speaker 6>the word, well there's only one correct way to spell

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<v Speaker 6>the word, and that's in Hebrew. Colahmid you know, I

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<v Speaker 6>think there's a yacht in there, or is there a

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<v Speaker 6>yeah ud pay hey? I should probably know it's spelled

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<v Speaker 6>in the Hebrew. But that's okay, So cliff off, clipote,

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<v Speaker 6>clipa whatever once plural one's not. I address this like

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<v Speaker 6>what I'm doing at the Spring workshop is is giving

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<v Speaker 6>a The first thing I became known for in the

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<v Speaker 6>magical world was in the late nineties early two thousands

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<v Speaker 6>for giving a workshop on a text I wrote in

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<v Speaker 6>the Golden Dawned at the end of my Outer Order training,

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<v Speaker 6>which I call I can't remember the original name, but

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<v Speaker 6>I published it as Sacred Magic and the Clipote, and

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<v Speaker 6>that's been my most successful little you know, pamphlet or

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<v Speaker 6>book that is sold on Amazon. It's dropped in sales

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<v Speaker 6>during the pandemic as someone'st and sold it on Scribbed

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<v Speaker 6>and made fifteen grand and my royalties dropped from three

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<v Speaker 6>point fifty down to twenty bucks a month, so I

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<v Speaker 6>may sue scribbed at some point if I ever have

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<v Speaker 6>the resources. I certainly have the evidence, and as a result,

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<v Speaker 6>I have been working on rewriting, entirely updating it since

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<v Speaker 6>the late nineties, where you can imagine my understanding of

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<v Speaker 6>these things was a lot more limited. Plus I was

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<v Speaker 6>a teenager, so I started giving this workshop based on

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<v Speaker 6>that text that I wrote as part of my Golden

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<v Speaker 6>Dawn training from practice to portal, and the workshop took forevers.

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<v Speaker 7>You know.

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<v Speaker 6>It was modeled on using as a hermeneutic Saint John

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<v Speaker 6>of the Cross's Seven Deadly Sins understanding found in his

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<v Speaker 6>book The Dark Knight of the Soul, and that was

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<v Speaker 6>sort of the modus by which we explored them theurgically.

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<v Speaker 6>The workshop went over like a house on fire. It

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<v Speaker 6>lasted five hours. By the end of the workshop, my

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<v Speaker 6>classroom at the first temple I delivered, it was full

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<v Speaker 6>of adepts to where skin being out of their own

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<v Speaker 6>duties just to listen in to what this little kid

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<v Speaker 6>was saying, which was very flattering, of course, and it

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<v Speaker 6>led to me being invited to temples around the world

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<v Speaker 6>to give this workshop and I was never allowed to

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<v Speaker 6>not give this workshop every year there on out for

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<v Speaker 6>the rest of my time in that order, and so

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<v Speaker 6>I haven't given the workshop since then. But my understanding

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<v Speaker 6>of the Klippote has changed since then, or not changed,

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<v Speaker 6>but grown and developed and matured, especially as I became

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<v Speaker 6>an adult and dealt with life and learned to go

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<v Speaker 6>from knowledge or from information and knowledge to wisdom, you

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<v Speaker 6>could say. And so I'm very excited for the second

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<v Speaker 6>edition of that text. I have a new title for it,

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<v Speaker 6>and then I'll discontinue the current version that is currently online,

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<v Speaker 6>and I'll be giving that workshop for the first time

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<v Speaker 6>ever since since two thousand and three down in Austin, Texas,

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<v Speaker 6>free for all members of the Arcane Research Society. And

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<v Speaker 6>I'm going to try and fit it into three hours.

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<v Speaker 6>So it's going to be an intense three hour morning

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<v Speaker 6>of Cliffo and theorgy and spirituality from me that day.

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<v Speaker 1>That's awesome.

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<v Speaker 4>You mentioned that, like your idea of it changed. I

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<v Speaker 4>guess as you're kind of you know, learning it or

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<v Speaker 4>practicing and researching it whatever over time. How did you

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<v Speaker 4>originally look at it? And like, how do you see

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<v Speaker 4>it today? Is it different?

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<v Speaker 6>I don't think the way I see it today is different.

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<v Speaker 6>It's just I have a fuller understanding of Taye. Plus

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<v Speaker 6>I have the lived experience when I when I wrote

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<v Speaker 6>about it initially, I was looking at the role of

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<v Speaker 6>that kind of spiritual struggle in the context also of

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<v Speaker 6>Saint John of the Cross is understanding of the spiritual journey,

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<v Speaker 6>and in the Dark Knight of the Soul, Saint John

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<v Speaker 6>of the Cross divides that journey into two parts, the

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<v Speaker 6>Dark Knight of the Senses and then ten fifteen years

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<v Speaker 6>later or something like that, you might, if you're lucky,

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<v Speaker 6>go through a really brutal experience called the Dark Knight

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<v Speaker 6>of the Spirit. Ironically, in the book The Dark Knight

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<v Speaker 6>of the Soul, there is no experience called the Dark

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<v Speaker 6>Knight of the Soul. So, and as you might surprisingly,

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<v Speaker 6>that is actually a good thing because it means that

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<v Speaker 6>there's no need to get upset with someone when they

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<v Speaker 6>say they went through a Dark Knight of the soul,

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<v Speaker 6>because John of the Cross never talks about a Dark

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<v Speaker 6>Knight of the Soul. He talks about the Dark Knight

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<v Speaker 6>of the Senses and the Dark Knight of the Spirit,

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<v Speaker 6>and they're very specific things with specific signifiers, and so

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<v Speaker 6>I did get to go through that dark Knight of

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<v Speaker 6>the Spirit in my thirties. It was exactly as he described,

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<v Speaker 6>and I didn't even understand I was going through it

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<v Speaker 6>at the time, because to be able to go through

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<v Speaker 6>it you have to have been challenged by certain things

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<v Speaker 6>in certain ways that would necessitate you not really being

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<v Speaker 6>aware of what you're slipping into in life. Yeah, so

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<v Speaker 6>that was interesting, and I have perspective on that now

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<v Speaker 6>and I have a sense of the reality of it,

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<v Speaker 6>and that's I think very interesting and could be perhaps

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<v Speaker 6>helpful to others. I shouldn't fail to mention also the

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<v Speaker 6>fabulous work done by one of my modern living alchemical

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<v Speaker 6>cabalistic heroes, which is the great David heim Smith and

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<v Speaker 6>his book Black Ether and his course on that is

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<v Speaker 6>something that has also rounded out my understanding of these

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<v Speaker 6>things and given me some new perspectives, especially since I

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<v Speaker 6>also follow a monistic view of reality, which is, you know,

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<v Speaker 6>necessary in the hermetic path, and he also follows that

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<v Speaker 6>monistic view, which is not necessary in the coblistic path.

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<v Speaker 6>There's lots of coblistic duelists out there, I think.

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<v Speaker 2>Let me just jump in there, Frader, I'm so glad

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<v Speaker 2>that you shout out DCS. Shout out DCS. Ever the

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<v Speaker 2>Boy Book, Two Headed Arrow, it's very, very, very good.

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<v Speaker 2>I would not say that DCS follows a monistic He's

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<v Speaker 2>very he's very anti theistic or a like.

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<v Speaker 6>I'm not talking about theism.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, he wouldn't know. He's derive himself as monistic, though

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<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't say that personally.

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<v Speaker 6>I mean that he went on a whole tear about

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<v Speaker 6>how that's his point of view when the first time

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<v Speaker 6>he was on my podcast, like that was the big

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<v Speaker 6>thing he was pushing is is there's there's one essential reality,

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<v Speaker 6>not not true. Hescribes it in terms of non emanationist,

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<v Speaker 6>and that's a more accurate way to describe it, non emanationist.

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<v Speaker 6>You're right that monistic can imply theism. So so that's

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<v Speaker 6>a very fair point. Thanks. Oh no, I just wanted

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<v Speaker 6>to David Smith is a theist heaven forbid?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, No, it's because Freder. This is the reason I

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<v Speaker 2>clarified it for myself is because I followed that non

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<v Speaker 2>theistic and a non dualist model when it comes to

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<v Speaker 2>Cabala in general. So I have a very similar not

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<v Speaker 2>exactly the same, but a very similar framework for mapping

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<v Speaker 2>out the tree that David does. So that's why I said,

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<v Speaker 2>because if I I speak on the panel tonight, I

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<v Speaker 2>want it to be clear that I'm also not coming

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<v Speaker 2>from like a theistic or monastic perspective. I'm coming from

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<v Speaker 2>like a Buddhist nondualist sort of like a post Lurianic

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<v Speaker 2>sort of DCS perspective. So that's all.

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, the word theism, in my opinion, necessarily indicates dualism,

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<v Speaker 6>because if you have theism, you must have dualism because

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<v Speaker 6>you're stating that there is a source or a being

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<v Speaker 6>outside of something else, and that would necessitate a dualism.

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<v Speaker 6>So yeah, I consider it. Yeah, we definitely share the

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<v Speaker 6>same points of view on that for sure, and that

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<v Speaker 6>is the Hermetic point of view as well.

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<v Speaker 4>Freder Uh, when people like talk about the clip of today,

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<v Speaker 4>clip of whatever to say this thing, do you think

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<v Speaker 4>that like they kind of misunderstood or maybe not talking

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<v Speaker 4>about the same thing originally was you think there's a misunderstanding.

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<v Speaker 6>Absolutely, that's the biggest problem with it these days, and

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<v Speaker 6>it stems from the fact that literally no one is

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<v Speaker 6>reading the most significant core text on the clip boat.

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<v Speaker 6>People are drawing what they know from it, from the Zohar,

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<v Speaker 6>which is totally fair, and from other bits of texts

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<v Speaker 6>in teachings of different cabalistic schools. And that's the key.

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<v Speaker 6>There's different cabalistic schools, and therefore the idea that there's

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<v Speaker 6>one reality to the clipboat or only one paradigm in

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<v Speaker 6>which you can understand them is absurd. Everyone's gonna look

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<v Speaker 6>at things in their own way. So you have people

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<v Speaker 6>who are personifying them and treating them as demons of

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<v Speaker 6>the guetia and working with them like that. You have

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<v Speaker 6>people who are treating them a left hand path, people

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<v Speaker 6>who are treating them like just gods there to work

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<v Speaker 6>with theurgically in the same spiritual way you would work

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<v Speaker 6>with any other deity like Osiris or Jesus or Zeus

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<v Speaker 6>or Odin. And then they're like, oh, Thamiel purified me.

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<v Speaker 6>It's like we are not talking about the same thing.

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<v Speaker 6>Then we're not on the same page. There is no

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<v Speaker 6>conversation there possible between those two points of view other interpretations.

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<v Speaker 6>I think there is room for some dialogue, but I

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<v Speaker 6>think it's important to understand that we have such different

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<v Speaker 6>paradigms of these things, and often people want to have

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<v Speaker 6>this unified find some unified or meaning or reality to everything,

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<v Speaker 6>and it just doesn't work that way, because again, we

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<v Speaker 6>should have different, different paradigms and perspectives. So there's definitely

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<v Speaker 6>a variety of many forms of clippoat. When I wrote

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<v Speaker 6>Sacred Magic in the Clapoat, it came out of a

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<v Speaker 6>real occult struggle, right. It was definitely not the perspective.

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<v Speaker 6>Weren't even allowed to use the names, speak them out

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<v Speaker 6>loud or any or ever show them to members of

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<v Speaker 6>lower grade in the Golden Dawn Order I was in,

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<v Speaker 6>and certainly we didn't see them as any form of

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<v Speaker 6>aesthetics that a lot of our I'm chair folks and

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<v Speaker 6>diabolists like to see them as this sort of creative

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<v Speaker 6>esthetic of like, oh, there's the chaos in the world

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<v Speaker 6>and I love dark music. I play dark music. I

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<v Speaker 6>love that stuff. Prep you know, But but that's that's

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<v Speaker 6>not what you know. I I was dealing with them

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<v Speaker 6>with I was looking at you, seeing them and understanding

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<v Speaker 6>them as as realities that cause evil, absolutely, that that

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<v Speaker 6>thwart us on our way to where we want to go.

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<v Speaker 6>And so I like in the but I do right

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<v Speaker 6>in the preps of my book. Here's a line I

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<v Speaker 6>do right, Sometimes we must transgress a little too far

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<v Speaker 6>in order to learn what is the what is the

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<v Speaker 6>limit of safe spiritual progress up the mountain? And you

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<v Speaker 6>can imagine that that would be the idea of a

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<v Speaker 6>seventeen year old in the grade of practicue learning the

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<v Speaker 6>clipothic names and trees and hierarchies for the first time

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<v Speaker 6>reading Kenneth Grant's Night Side of Eden and as an aquarius,

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<v Speaker 6>and you know, defining my experience of life through personal experience. Obviously,

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<v Speaker 6>I was inclined to push the envelope a little bit

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<v Speaker 6>and it absolutely almost killed me. So for me, the

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<v Speaker 6>clipoths are not just monstrous externals or sensational symbols. They

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<v Speaker 6>reveal what is in us, unpurified, misdirected, or spiritually asleep.

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<v Speaker 6>And one of the central ideas in the book that

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<v Speaker 6>I'll be challenging and reclarifying is that as the path

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<v Speaker 6>gets real, the glamour starts to fade. So another thing

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<v Speaker 6>I say in the book is sloth is the abandonment

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<v Speaker 6>of spiritual and of spiritual and ritual work. At this

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<v Speaker 6>point of which Saint Johnathan Cross calls the dark Knight

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<v Speaker 6>of the Senses, and so you can see why I

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<v Speaker 6>need to rewrite the book there that sense could be

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<v Speaker 6>a bit better. But it is this idea we'd look

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<v Speaker 6>I look at the sins in relationship to the clip

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<v Speaker 6>boat in a very different way than people usually understand

416
00:23:57.799 --> 00:24:01.119
<v Speaker 6>the sins today, following from Saint on. And so this

417
00:24:01.160 --> 00:24:03.559
<v Speaker 6>is where the work really begins. And it's why I

418
00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:07.160
<v Speaker 6>say in the book work becomes true invoking into the

419
00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:09.960
<v Speaker 6>spirit only when the goal of pleasure is replaced by

420
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:11.680
<v Speaker 6>the impetus of devotion.

421
00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:17.640
<v Speaker 4>Thank you. That was like really well said that. I

422
00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:20.000
<v Speaker 4>think you like actually answered like three questions I had

423
00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:20.359
<v Speaker 4>at once.

424
00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:22.359
<v Speaker 2>That was great, excellent.

425
00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:25.359
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, the book is the best twenty bucks you'll ever spend.

426
00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:28.519
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I happened. Twenty dollars.

427
00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:30.319
<v Speaker 6>Maybe it's lest maybe it's fourteen.

428
00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:33.039
<v Speaker 4>Actually that's cheap compared to like what they're going for.

429
00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:36.240
<v Speaker 6>Well, I had to drop it below the price of

430
00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:38.640
<v Speaker 6>people who had stolen it were selling it to compete

431
00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:38.839
<v Speaker 6>with me.

432
00:24:42.160 --> 00:24:42.680
<v Speaker 4>Wow.

433
00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:48.039
<v Speaker 6>Wow, Yeah, I lost what I during the period during

434
00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:50.519
<v Speaker 6>the period in lockdown in which it was illegal to

435
00:24:50.599 --> 00:24:53.160
<v Speaker 6>work for two and a half years, I lost my

436
00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:56.680
<v Speaker 6>number one selling book and fifteen thousand dollars of income

437
00:24:56.680 --> 00:25:04.359
<v Speaker 6>over three and a half years gone. And uh yeah, yeah,

438
00:25:04.599 --> 00:25:07.920
<v Speaker 6>that's a very very clear example of cliffland, right, someone

439
00:25:07.960 --> 00:25:10.799
<v Speaker 6>has the ability to create something, they go get something

440
00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:11.480
<v Speaker 6>from someone else.

441
00:25:12.839 --> 00:25:15.599
<v Speaker 7>Ye, get the flow away and so on.

442
00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:21.519
<v Speaker 6>So yeah, absolutely, what an excellent point. Oh my god,

443
00:25:21.640 --> 00:25:24.759
<v Speaker 6>that's I didn't think of that. That is my.

444
00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:30.920
<v Speaker 5>Clip poth book got clipoth by a clippoth. Yeah, you know,

445
00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:35.880
<v Speaker 5>Oh my god, it's amazing.

446
00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:41.240
<v Speaker 4>Did anybody have any questions before I start going forward

447
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:42.039
<v Speaker 4>with the other ones?

448
00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:44.599
<v Speaker 8>I do have a quick question, if you don't mind,

449
00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:49.119
<v Speaker 8>Fred Arc for those of us that are unfamiliar with

450
00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:53.240
<v Speaker 8>the history of cliff Off, can you share with us

451
00:25:53.640 --> 00:25:58.519
<v Speaker 8>the root of it and how it is developed throughout

452
00:25:59.559 --> 00:26:02.079
<v Speaker 8>I guess society and ceremonial margin.

453
00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:09.119
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, so there are there are good writings and researchers

454
00:26:09.160 --> 00:26:11.440
<v Speaker 6>on the cliphoth. One of the things I didn't do,

455
00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:15.119
<v Speaker 6>because I just didn't have the Hebrew skill at the time,

456
00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:19.400
<v Speaker 6>was compile or study or research a history of interpretation

457
00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:22.559
<v Speaker 6>of the clip off, which is how something came into

458
00:26:22.599 --> 00:26:27.160
<v Speaker 6>being and how it was interpreted throughout time in various ways.

459
00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:29.279
<v Speaker 6>I wasn't able to do that because I had zero

460
00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:32.880
<v Speaker 6>Hebrew other than the memorization of the alphabet. Of course,

461
00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:36.079
<v Speaker 6>by the time I finished my Master's of Divinity at

462
00:26:36.160 --> 00:26:39.839
<v Speaker 6>UBC and had graduated from Seminary, I had two years

463
00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:42.559
<v Speaker 6>of Hebrew grad school Hebrew under my belt and a

464
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:45.400
<v Speaker 6>year of Aramaic, so I was able to start digging

465
00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:49.559
<v Speaker 6>into that stuff. But I didn't because I had I

466
00:26:49.599 --> 00:26:54.880
<v Speaker 6>was busied with doctoral studies and playing music and things,

467
00:26:55.359 --> 00:26:58.839
<v Speaker 6>so it's something I never did. I'll be point blank

468
00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:02.160
<v Speaker 6>about that. But the clip us originate in the Zohar.

469
00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:05.960
<v Speaker 6>I believe that is the first instance of them originating,

470
00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:11.240
<v Speaker 6>and they were discussed in other rabbinic texts throughout the

471
00:27:11.319 --> 00:27:14.839
<v Speaker 6>from the Middle Ages onward. And I'm not sure the

472
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:17.680
<v Speaker 6>extent of which text they're discussed in that would You

473
00:27:17.720 --> 00:27:19.519
<v Speaker 6>would need to talk to a Jewish scholar to know

474
00:27:19.559 --> 00:27:22.519
<v Speaker 6>the full extent. But I do know that the major text,

475
00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:28.240
<v Speaker 6>the one and only major text on the Cleipoat, is

476
00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:30.680
<v Speaker 6>something that no one reads other than me. I've translated

477
00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:34.400
<v Speaker 6>the first several pages of it, but it was taking

478
00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:37.359
<v Speaker 6>me so long to translate. I outsourced that to a

479
00:27:37.519 --> 00:27:43.720
<v Speaker 6>Jewish professor and translator who I met through Marcelo del

480
00:27:43.799 --> 00:27:49.480
<v Speaker 6>Debio's Brazilian podcast. This was the translator who worked with Marcello,

481
00:27:50.039 --> 00:27:52.720
<v Speaker 6>and so he put us, me and my friend, my

482
00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:56.400
<v Speaker 6>magical working partner, in touch with him to have us

483
00:27:56.519 --> 00:27:59.079
<v Speaker 6>to translate the book. And so we paid him a

484
00:27:59.079 --> 00:28:01.559
<v Speaker 6>lot of money and he strung us along for a year,

485
00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:06.599
<v Speaker 6>then deleted his Telegram account and Marcelo del Wio ignored

486
00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:09.079
<v Speaker 6>all my messages and so we got ripped off for

487
00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:11.680
<v Speaker 6>a lot of money and never got the work translated.

488
00:28:11.720 --> 00:28:14.519
<v Speaker 6>So you don't all have the Book of Horns Sefer

489
00:28:14.599 --> 00:28:17.839
<v Speaker 6>Karnaim to enjoy and read at this point in time,

490
00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:21.920
<v Speaker 6>because Marcelo del de Wio and his buddy are thieves

491
00:28:22.599 --> 00:28:27.960
<v Speaker 6>and scam artists. Man, that's fucked up. It's increasing. And

492
00:28:28.039 --> 00:28:30.000
<v Speaker 6>I have, of course, I have all the receipts because

493
00:28:30.279 --> 00:28:33.119
<v Speaker 6>we have the PayPal transaction. We have all the texts

494
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:35.880
<v Speaker 6>and all the message we have everything. And I found

495
00:28:35.880 --> 00:28:39.839
<v Speaker 6>the translator on Facebook now just trucking along like nothing happened.

496
00:28:39.880 --> 00:28:44.079
<v Speaker 6>And well, I think the clip out might have their

497
00:28:44.119 --> 00:28:46.119
<v Speaker 6>way with him at some point, and it won't be

498
00:28:46.160 --> 00:28:49.640
<v Speaker 6>because of me, It'll be his own evil actions.

499
00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:52.799
<v Speaker 9>Well like that, you're fair your own demons, You know

500
00:28:52.839 --> 00:28:58.519
<v Speaker 9>what I'm saying, yeah, no, no, no, I was gonna say,

501
00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:00.759
<v Speaker 9>like you were saying, he's creating his own kleep us

502
00:29:01.160 --> 00:29:02.079
<v Speaker 9>the offender.

503
00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:06.119
<v Speaker 6>So absolutely, Yeah. Actually I was gonna grab the Book

504
00:29:06.119 --> 00:29:09.880
<v Speaker 6>of Horns, the Sefra Karnaim to show you, guys, how

505
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:12.160
<v Speaker 6>you know you can get a beautiful copy. You know,

506
00:29:13.079 --> 00:29:16.920
<v Speaker 6>Jews have wonderful binding services for all their books that

507
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:19.559
<v Speaker 6>make them available quite affordably. And I did look for

508
00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:22.279
<v Speaker 6>my pages of translating the first part of that that

509
00:29:22.359 --> 00:29:26.119
<v Speaker 6>I pay instakeingly did and showed to Israeli friend, just

510
00:29:26.119 --> 00:29:29.079
<v Speaker 6>to make sure I wasn't, you know, totally off my rocker,

511
00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:31.920
<v Speaker 6>and so that was good, but I couldn't translate the

512
00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:34.960
<v Speaker 6>whole thing, and no, I just don't have time. It

513
00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:37.640
<v Speaker 6>would be great if someone did translate it. I might

514
00:29:37.799 --> 00:29:39.839
<v Speaker 6>be willing to pay someone else to translate it. But

515
00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:43.960
<v Speaker 6>you can imagine my reticence at this stage.

516
00:29:44.200 --> 00:29:48.359
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, I mean, it's it's very, very fucked up. Because

517
00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:52.519
<v Speaker 7>I watched this this guy in Marcello's for a bit

518
00:29:52.599 --> 00:29:53.519
<v Speaker 7>and I was gonna say.

519
00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:55.319
<v Speaker 6>Like one oft we were friends.

520
00:29:56.359 --> 00:29:57.960
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, I was gonna say one of his examples for

521
00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:01.599
<v Speaker 7>the Klifa. It makes it interesting. It's like an interesting

522
00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:05.599
<v Speaker 7>point of view, Like for example, he always says, oh,

523
00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:08.599
<v Speaker 7>imagine like you have had right, so the ability to communicate,

524
00:30:09.039 --> 00:30:11.400
<v Speaker 7>and then you can use that either for being a

525
00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:14.599
<v Speaker 7>good communicator, you know, spreading good information and whatever, or

526
00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:17.599
<v Speaker 7>straight out line you know, like being a politician in line.

527
00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:20.000
<v Speaker 7>So you're good at the sphere, but you're using it

528
00:30:20.519 --> 00:30:23.640
<v Speaker 7>to in a bullshit manner, right. I wouldn't say that's

529
00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:26.400
<v Speaker 7>the only way of seeing the kleithos, but it's like

530
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:29.720
<v Speaker 7>an interesting way. But not that said about this system,

531
00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:31.799
<v Speaker 7>like what the fuck I'm gonna get, you know, know,

532
00:30:31.880 --> 00:30:34.799
<v Speaker 7>all this stuff like this, it's very weird.

533
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:43.000
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, yeah, that is an example of the popular LHP.

534
00:30:43.240 --> 00:30:46.880
<v Speaker 6>I don't want to use that term too lightly or designatedly.

535
00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:50.839
<v Speaker 6>So it's a popular way of people seeing the sphere

536
00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:54.960
<v Speaker 6>out as good powers and the cleip boat as bad powers,

537
00:30:55.240 --> 00:30:58.160
<v Speaker 6>and you can use either of them agentically to do

538
00:30:58.240 --> 00:31:01.160
<v Speaker 6>your will. That I think is I think that's a

539
00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:06.720
<v Speaker 6>huge error. I think that is a tremendous miscalculation and

540
00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:13.160
<v Speaker 6>also not true to what the Jewish mystics were trying

541
00:31:13.240 --> 00:31:16.519
<v Speaker 6>to communicate to us, sticks especially the rabbi who wrote

542
00:31:16.559 --> 00:31:20.519
<v Speaker 6>the Sefarkhana the Book of Horns, who was masacred along

543
00:31:20.559 --> 00:31:23.039
<v Speaker 6>with his congregation and the Cossack raids in the seventeen

544
00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:26.480
<v Speaker 6>hundreds in Poland, a horrific way to die for someone

545
00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:31.799
<v Speaker 6>who wrote the book on the Klei boat. They definitely

546
00:31:31.799 --> 00:31:34.559
<v Speaker 6>have periods where even in the Zohar, I think it's

547
00:31:34.759 --> 00:31:38.079
<v Speaker 6>arguable that they see them as entities of some sort,

548
00:31:38.680 --> 00:31:42.960
<v Speaker 6>but the essential you know, I prefer David Heinsmith's understanding

549
00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:45.160
<v Speaker 6>of them, of course, and I prefer the traditional Jewish

550
00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:49.559
<v Speaker 6>view of seeing them as husks around what is good,

551
00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:52.920
<v Speaker 6>which are the spheres the aspects of God. And in

552
00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:56.079
<v Speaker 6>this way, it's very deceptive for people to look at

553
00:31:56.079 --> 00:31:58.240
<v Speaker 6>the Tree of life as the tree of life model

554
00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:02.440
<v Speaker 6>the inter secting rings the rings going out from the

555
00:32:02.480 --> 00:32:05.480
<v Speaker 6>center like imagine the symbol of the sun or the monad,

556
00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:09.759
<v Speaker 6>and then with circles between the point and the outer ring.

557
00:32:10.119 --> 00:32:12.319
<v Speaker 6>That's an older view of the tree of life that

558
00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:15.759
<v Speaker 6>I think is generally much more helpful for understanding Cobbla

559
00:32:16.440 --> 00:32:19.759
<v Speaker 6>most of the time. And so with the Tree of

560
00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:23.319
<v Speaker 6>Life in the you know, the quote unquote cure Her diagram.

561
00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:26.160
<v Speaker 6>Though cure Her didn't create that diagram, he just you

562
00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:30.160
<v Speaker 6>know printed it. Can you imagine a Jesuit actually creating

563
00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:33.759
<v Speaker 6>a diagram or the tree of life not gonna happen,

564
00:32:34.200 --> 00:32:39.559
<v Speaker 6>Not gonna happen. You see the cleipboat as this inverse

565
00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:42.160
<v Speaker 6>tree sometimes, and that is again I think, very deceptive.

566
00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:45.880
<v Speaker 6>Seeing it more as that which prevents you from accessing

567
00:32:46.359 --> 00:32:50.039
<v Speaker 6>the sphere I think is the best way to understand it,

568
00:32:50.119 --> 00:32:54.359
<v Speaker 6>certainly the most useful in my opinion. So del Wo's

569
00:32:54.440 --> 00:32:59.119
<v Speaker 6>point of seeing, Oh, there's the hode splendor sphere, and

570
00:32:59.160 --> 00:33:02.200
<v Speaker 6>then there's the kleipoat of the Hode, and I can

571
00:33:02.279 --> 00:33:04.880
<v Speaker 6>use either of them, I think, is to fail to

572
00:33:04.880 --> 00:33:07.480
<v Speaker 6>get the point of the clipboat, which is that if

573
00:33:07.559 --> 00:33:12.000
<v Speaker 6>you're caught in the lying, you're not able to access

574
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:14.319
<v Speaker 6>the truth. If you're lying, it's because you can't access truth.

575
00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:18.400
<v Speaker 6>It's because you didn't transmute that klipo, that husk, that

576
00:33:18.519 --> 00:33:21.880
<v Speaker 6>shell around the thing that it is of actual value,

577
00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:25.440
<v Speaker 6>and so you weren't able to attain that, and that's

578
00:33:25.480 --> 00:33:28.400
<v Speaker 6>your spiritual failing or sin as some people might look

579
00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:31.599
<v Speaker 6>at it. Just like here's another example of you're walking

580
00:33:31.640 --> 00:33:34.720
<v Speaker 6>down the street because these things have to come into

581
00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:38.680
<v Speaker 6>play in your life otherwise what's if you can't understand

582
00:33:38.680 --> 00:33:40.519
<v Speaker 6>them in your daily life? What's the point? How is

583
00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:43.880
<v Speaker 6>that helpful? It's just metaphysical speculation. At that point, it

584
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:47.759
<v Speaker 6>becomes extremely masturbatory very fast, which a lot of people

585
00:33:47.799 --> 00:33:51.359
<v Speaker 6>also liken more power to them. They can do that.

586
00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:55.440
<v Speaker 6>But you say, see a person begging for change, right,

587
00:33:55.519 --> 00:33:58.119
<v Speaker 6>and you reach in your pocket and you feel, oh,

588
00:33:58.160 --> 00:34:00.839
<v Speaker 6>there's just a bill there, there's no there's no loonies

589
00:34:00.920 --> 00:34:03.680
<v Speaker 6>or tunnies, no dollars or two dollars coins, just a

590
00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:08.559
<v Speaker 6>five or twenty, and you feel this resistance. Well, what

591
00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:12.719
<v Speaker 6>is that? That is the shell around generosity preventing you

592
00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:17.599
<v Speaker 6>from exercising loving kindness and selflessness. And so that you're

593
00:34:17.639 --> 00:34:20.559
<v Speaker 6>confronting you have to wrestle and transmute that clipout right there,

594
00:34:20.599 --> 00:34:24.480
<v Speaker 6>and then to penetrate it, throw it away as a

595
00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:28.239
<v Speaker 6>husk and reach in and feel that charity and just

596
00:34:28.519 --> 00:34:31.280
<v Speaker 6>give what you intended to do, which was to give

597
00:34:31.480 --> 00:34:33.920
<v Speaker 6>some money to the beggar on the street.

598
00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:34.800
<v Speaker 4>Right.

599
00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:36.920
<v Speaker 6>And I've been through this moment, I'm sure everyone has.

600
00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:39.519
<v Speaker 6>You know, do you pull your hand back out empty

601
00:34:39.559 --> 00:34:45.039
<v Speaker 6>or do you let go transmute that and give them

602
00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:47.559
<v Speaker 6>something because you were planning on it because you wanted to.

603
00:34:48.079 --> 00:34:51.079
<v Speaker 6>There's a there's a there's a theorgy of the cliff

604
00:34:51.079 --> 00:34:51.719
<v Speaker 6>Off right there.

605
00:34:53.039 --> 00:34:55.800
<v Speaker 10>That that brings up another question I'd like to ask you.

606
00:34:56.719 --> 00:35:00.039
<v Speaker 10>So basically, the way you compare the cliffwth to the

607
00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:04.800
<v Speaker 10>Tree of Life. If someone decides to work through the

608
00:35:04.840 --> 00:35:07.079
<v Speaker 10>Tree of life, you have to work through the cliff Off.

609
00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:10.159
<v Speaker 10>It goes without saying or is.

610
00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:12.679
<v Speaker 11>Right.

611
00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:14.760
<v Speaker 6>So that comes into the discussion of how do you

612
00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:18.039
<v Speaker 6>work with the Cliffhoth? Right, they're there anyway, Working with

613
00:35:18.119 --> 00:35:20.719
<v Speaker 6>the Sephara is how you work with the cliphoth people

614
00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:23.760
<v Speaker 6>who make it so that you have to confront the

615
00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:27.119
<v Speaker 6>cliphote and then actualize them or raify them in some way.

616
00:35:27.400 --> 00:35:29.239
<v Speaker 6>That's where I think you start to dig your grave.

617
00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:33.400
<v Speaker 2>I agree with that actually one hundred percent, I think,

618
00:35:33.760 --> 00:35:35.599
<v Speaker 2>and I agree with what you're The premise of what

619
00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:39.079
<v Speaker 2>you're asking Judith is that, Yeah, that's how I see

620
00:35:39.079 --> 00:35:41.960
<v Speaker 2>the tree too. It's like it's nondual. The Tree of

621
00:35:41.960 --> 00:35:44.000
<v Speaker 2>Life and the Tree of Death are there. You confront

622
00:35:44.039 --> 00:35:46.519
<v Speaker 2>the klipas. I have a different, slightly different way of

623
00:35:46.599 --> 00:35:48.480
<v Speaker 2>understanding them. And I was going to actually ask a

624
00:35:48.599 --> 00:35:51.760
<v Speaker 2>freight or RC if he considered them, if he considered

625
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:55.360
<v Speaker 2>that you can clarify klipas or that perhaps in the

626
00:35:55.400 --> 00:35:59.039
<v Speaker 2>correct in the sort of way, that they also are

627
00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:03.920
<v Speaker 2>luminous or transparent. DCS has talked a little bit about

628
00:36:03.920 --> 00:36:07.239
<v Speaker 2>this in relation to like nondualism or qualified non dualism,

629
00:36:07.559 --> 00:36:12.559
<v Speaker 2>and how the kleepas can be perceived as luminous in

630
00:36:12.599 --> 00:36:16.159
<v Speaker 2>and of themselves like a glass, a glass sheath, excuse me,

631
00:36:16.880 --> 00:36:20.840
<v Speaker 2>that is, like the vessel that contains the spark of luminosity.

632
00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:24.119
<v Speaker 2>So perhaps there's even no difference between the kleipa and

633
00:36:24.159 --> 00:36:27.960
<v Speaker 2>the suffer themselves. That's just a one idea, but i'll

634
00:36:28.199 --> 00:36:29.880
<v Speaker 2>i'll for freight or address.

635
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:33.320
<v Speaker 6>I think that's that. I mean, I think what you've

636
00:36:33.360 --> 00:36:38.000
<v Speaker 6>just said shows the depth of contemplation and meditation and

637
00:36:38.119 --> 00:36:40.480
<v Speaker 6>work you've done with this, and that I think you.

638
00:36:41.519 --> 00:36:43.599
<v Speaker 6>I don't know if that's true or not, of course, right,

639
00:36:44.159 --> 00:36:46.920
<v Speaker 6>but I think David him Smith would like what you're saying,

640
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:49.800
<v Speaker 6>and I certainly think that it does show some some

641
00:36:49.960 --> 00:36:53.440
<v Speaker 6>real experience with them. So I would agree at face

642
00:36:53.559 --> 00:36:55.440
<v Speaker 6>value with that assessment for sure.

643
00:36:56.400 --> 00:36:59.440
<v Speaker 2>Thank you. I appreciate that. I consider myself a quite

644
00:36:59.480 --> 00:37:03.280
<v Speaker 2>good speculative cabalist. I don't use kabala for magic, just

645
00:37:03.360 --> 00:37:06.159
<v Speaker 2>for the record, and I but I do. I do

646
00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:09.639
<v Speaker 2>consider myself quite good and DCS also considers me pretty

647
00:37:09.639 --> 00:37:12.760
<v Speaker 2>good too, just to show myself out. But yeah, thank

648
00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:14.639
<v Speaker 2>you so much for d Arci. I appreciate that.

649
00:37:15.079 --> 00:37:18.760
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, oh, Judia, did you have anything else? Sorry? I

650
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:20.920
<v Speaker 4>wasn't sure if you were done.

651
00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:23.599
<v Speaker 8>I was gonna ask a question.

652
00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:26.519
<v Speaker 10>But it's more like how the Tree of Life is

653
00:37:26.599 --> 00:37:32.079
<v Speaker 10>presented to the masses. Basically, it's presented without the concept

654
00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:35.159
<v Speaker 10>or without even any knowledge of the proof of And

655
00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:37.679
<v Speaker 10>in your opinion, is that an injustice for those who

656
00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:39.239
<v Speaker 10>would like to work with the tree of life.

657
00:37:42.559 --> 00:37:46.599
<v Speaker 6>That's actually a really good question. That's a really good question.

658
00:37:46.719 --> 00:37:49.079
<v Speaker 6>That's something uh. I mean, maybe Jina and I can

659
00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:52.199
<v Speaker 6>debate that a bit. There's definitely pros and cons to it.

660
00:37:52.519 --> 00:37:54.559
<v Speaker 6>I mean, the fact is you are going to you

661
00:37:54.599 --> 00:37:58.800
<v Speaker 6>have You can't work with a sphere without dealing with

662
00:37:58.840 --> 00:38:02.960
<v Speaker 6>the shell around right how you know, the sphere is

663
00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:06.239
<v Speaker 6>the pearl or the oyster if you like your oysters,

664
00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:09.119
<v Speaker 6>or the grain, and the clip out is that which

665
00:38:09.199 --> 00:38:13.159
<v Speaker 6>is around it. So it's out of necessity that you

666
00:38:13.239 --> 00:38:16.320
<v Speaker 6>have to encounter the clipo, why would you go through

667
00:38:16.360 --> 00:38:20.039
<v Speaker 6>the trouble of reifying it anymore or vibrating its name,

668
00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:22.920
<v Speaker 6>or drawing or focusing on sigils of it. I mean,

669
00:38:22.920 --> 00:38:26.920
<v Speaker 6>I think Kenneth Grant's Side of Eden is fun, but

670
00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:32.760
<v Speaker 6>I found it of limited value in its insights. Many

671
00:38:32.760 --> 00:38:35.000
<v Speaker 6>of those insights I think are wonderful. That's why the

672
00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:37.599
<v Speaker 6>subtitle of my book as it stands is you know

673
00:38:37.719 --> 00:38:41.519
<v Speaker 6>the Tunnels of Set or seven Deadly Sins in the

674
00:38:41.559 --> 00:38:44.760
<v Speaker 6>Tunnels of Set in Kenneth right. It's a long title anyway,

675
00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:49.360
<v Speaker 6>but yeah, those ideas definitely helped me find my way

676
00:38:49.480 --> 00:38:53.159
<v Speaker 6>to Saint John of the Cross as a method of

677
00:38:53.199 --> 00:38:57.599
<v Speaker 6>theorgy and working with them. And yeah, did I in

678
00:38:57.639 --> 00:39:01.239
<v Speaker 6>the early days go a bit too far and maybe

679
00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:05.719
<v Speaker 6>try some direct contact with these forces? Yeah, and it

680
00:39:05.920 --> 00:39:10.840
<v Speaker 6>definitely And it directly almost led to my very young death.

681
00:39:11.480 --> 00:39:14.280
<v Speaker 6>And it took the intervention of the Adepts around me

682
00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:18.000
<v Speaker 6>at the Temple down in LA to save my life

683
00:39:18.440 --> 00:39:20.800
<v Speaker 6>from that error. So that's something I haven't talked about

684
00:39:20.840 --> 00:39:22.760
<v Speaker 6>in the past, but I'm gonna be talking about it now.

685
00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:25.239
<v Speaker 6>Leading up to this workshop and the release of my

686
00:39:25.320 --> 00:39:26.199
<v Speaker 6>second edition.

687
00:39:28.400 --> 00:39:33.440
<v Speaker 4>That was awesome. You know, just a question. You know,

688
00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:37.480
<v Speaker 4>I really don't know much about this topic. I mean,

689
00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:40.480
<v Speaker 4>I know enough, but I was just wondering, like if

690
00:39:40.880 --> 00:39:44.519
<v Speaker 4>if you use the hamiticabala and like you kind of

691
00:39:44.519 --> 00:39:46.719
<v Speaker 4>looked at the negative aspects of all the stuff that

692
00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:50.559
<v Speaker 4>was associated even maybe with planetary and the astrological stuff,

693
00:39:51.639 --> 00:39:53.719
<v Speaker 4>do you think that maybe you'd somehow be kind of

694
00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:57.559
<v Speaker 4>almost doing close to the same thing, but just not

695
00:39:57.719 --> 00:40:01.559
<v Speaker 4>using those I guess name associated with those spears and

696
00:40:01.639 --> 00:40:02.719
<v Speaker 4>husks as you call them.

697
00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:08.880
<v Speaker 6>Well, yeah, that would be the argument going to what

698
00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:12.000
<v Speaker 6>the loon up there said, what's your name of the loon?

699
00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:14.480
<v Speaker 6>What's the loon's name? Did? Should I call you the loon?

700
00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:17.400
<v Speaker 2>You could call me the lun or Judy, that's fine,

701
00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:18.519
<v Speaker 2>Jude Judy.

702
00:40:18.599 --> 00:40:21.159
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, well the loon is. I'm a Canadian, so we

703
00:40:21.199 --> 00:40:23.760
<v Speaker 6>love our loans. It's one of our special an we

704
00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:27.159
<v Speaker 6>call our dollar at we call our dollar loonies because

705
00:40:27.199 --> 00:40:29.719
<v Speaker 6>of how much the loon is held in high esteem

706
00:40:29.719 --> 00:40:32.159
<v Speaker 6>by us and what a cool animal as well. Ah,

707
00:40:33.440 --> 00:40:36.039
<v Speaker 6>but I think Jin would would agree. That's one of

708
00:40:35.800 --> 00:40:40.000
<v Speaker 6>the major arguments for a con Well, if if you

709
00:40:40.119 --> 00:40:45.719
<v Speaker 6>externalize and treat these cliffhothic names as beings. Doesn't that

710
00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:49.320
<v Speaker 6>allow us to employ mechanisms such as those found and

711
00:40:49.400 --> 00:40:53.559
<v Speaker 6>that originate in the Rabbit rabbinic practices and created the

712
00:40:53.599 --> 00:40:57.360
<v Speaker 6>solemonic tradition for us to pull them into our triangle

713
00:40:57.400 --> 00:41:02.239
<v Speaker 6>of manifestation and and purify and control them through those

714
00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:05.599
<v Speaker 6>external ritual practices. I mean, I think that's a strong

715
00:41:05.679 --> 00:41:09.599
<v Speaker 6>argument for doing that. I'm not convinced that it's safe

716
00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:14.880
<v Speaker 6>or necessary. It seems sort of to me, it seems unnecessary.

717
00:41:16.639 --> 00:41:19.039
<v Speaker 6>There's a question with one of my friends mentioned the

718
00:41:19.360 --> 00:41:25.440
<v Speaker 6>chat on screen. Yeah, I had a couple este Steve Mitchell,

719
00:41:25.559 --> 00:41:27.840
<v Speaker 6>my buddy Steve Mitchell. He'll be at the workshop in

720
00:41:27.880 --> 00:41:30.960
<v Speaker 6>there in June. I believe he's a great Golden down

721
00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:33.719
<v Speaker 6>adept in a huge order. He says, what do I

722
00:41:33.760 --> 00:41:36.719
<v Speaker 6>consider the key klopathic texts? Well, the original I think

723
00:41:36.800 --> 00:41:40.159
<v Speaker 6>is the Zohar, but the key text is undebatable. It

724
00:41:40.320 --> 00:41:42.719
<v Speaker 6>is the Book of Horns, the Cepher Kanaiem.

725
00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:48.639
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I had that and another one start. Actually, Oh,

726
00:41:48.679 --> 00:41:50.119
<v Speaker 4>I was going to go back to him, so I

727
00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:54.559
<v Speaker 4>thank you for bringing that up. Dan, I have anything else, Matt,

728
00:41:54.599 --> 00:41:55.480
<v Speaker 4>Were you trying to say.

729
00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:58.840
<v Speaker 7>Something exactly how I wanted to break something up. Actually,

730
00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:02.119
<v Speaker 7>we've been chatting on the Gray Lodge, I think a

731
00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:04.679
<v Speaker 7>couple of weeks ago actually since Solo and I. I

732
00:42:04.679 --> 00:42:06.679
<v Speaker 7>was trying to find here, but I couldn't but a

733
00:42:06.679 --> 00:42:09.840
<v Speaker 7>shout out to Solar the other to host we have.

734
00:42:10.400 --> 00:42:13.719
<v Speaker 7>But he brings it up in a like named it.

735
00:42:13.840 --> 00:42:16.159
<v Speaker 7>Let's say he tried naming it this kind of idea

736
00:42:16.199 --> 00:42:19.639
<v Speaker 7>where you would have the clefod I say, the things

737
00:42:19.639 --> 00:42:23.159
<v Speaker 7>that is talking about, and then whatever other name you

738
00:42:23.199 --> 00:42:26.280
<v Speaker 7>want to give to this other concept. But usually people

739
00:42:26.320 --> 00:42:29.440
<v Speaker 7>will also call it like gleefop whatever, which is kind

740
00:42:29.480 --> 00:42:34.440
<v Speaker 7>of like emptying a symbol. Right, I can give an example. Uh, well,

741
00:42:34.519 --> 00:42:36.920
<v Speaker 7>anytime you speak to an AI, right, you're going to

742
00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:39.880
<v Speaker 7>speak something to the AIDA is just going to generate

743
00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:43.719
<v Speaker 7>some text based on mathematics, and you are the one

744
00:42:44.360 --> 00:42:48.880
<v Speaker 7>putting some kind of emotional backdrop, some meaning to that

745
00:42:49.239 --> 00:42:51.840
<v Speaker 7>basically empty text. Right, the idea is just giving you

746
00:42:51.880 --> 00:42:54.039
<v Speaker 7>some gibberish and you're trying to make sense of it.

747
00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:57.559
<v Speaker 7>Or when you have some kind of let's say you

748
00:42:57.599 --> 00:43:00.639
<v Speaker 7>have a cartoon, a famous cartoon, and then for whatever

749
00:43:00.679 --> 00:43:05.800
<v Speaker 7>reason political or social reasons, that cartoon now means something else.

750
00:43:06.360 --> 00:43:09.679
<v Speaker 7>Now again the symbol is emptied. You know, you had

751
00:43:09.760 --> 00:43:12.840
<v Speaker 7>I don't know, something that was supposed to bring happiness

752
00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:15.880
<v Speaker 7>or whatever you know in the cartoon, and now people

753
00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:17.960
<v Speaker 7>are just mad about it. So again the symbol is

754
00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:22.079
<v Speaker 7>emptied out of its meaning. And what do I think

755
00:43:22.119 --> 00:43:26.079
<v Speaker 7>that's an interesting and interesting concept and maybe not necessarily

756
00:43:26.119 --> 00:43:29.800
<v Speaker 7>necessarily related to the cluefuss, but people might conflate them.

757
00:43:30.599 --> 00:43:32.639
<v Speaker 7>Is that you can that is something that you can

758
00:43:32.760 --> 00:43:35.960
<v Speaker 7>use practically. What do you mean by that? Let's say

759
00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:39.280
<v Speaker 7>you have I mean you can work with the tree

760
00:43:39.320 --> 00:43:41.599
<v Speaker 7>of life to try and rectify things right insteade of

761
00:43:41.599 --> 00:43:46.440
<v Speaker 7>you as one. And sure, that's pretty good. Sometimes though,

762
00:43:46.920 --> 00:43:50.519
<v Speaker 7>it feels as if let's say you have something you're

763
00:43:50.519 --> 00:43:53.039
<v Speaker 7>want to rectify in yourself, like a symbol or a

764
00:43:53.079 --> 00:43:55.920
<v Speaker 7>situation or whatever, and the more that you try to

765
00:43:56.039 --> 00:43:59.800
<v Speaker 7>go against it, the more that it becomes powerful. It's

766
00:43:59.800 --> 00:44:02.119
<v Speaker 7>like a kind of feeding it because you're trying to

767
00:44:02.119 --> 00:44:04.039
<v Speaker 7>go against it, right, It's like this enemy, they're trying

768
00:44:04.079 --> 00:44:07.360
<v Speaker 7>to go against it. But h and I picked this

769
00:44:07.400 --> 00:44:11.039
<v Speaker 7>by with personal experience. Once you understand that, you can

770
00:44:11.079 --> 00:44:15.400
<v Speaker 7>also just empty the thing of meaning and see, okay,

771
00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:18.880
<v Speaker 7>maybe that's actually not, you know, not even as great.

772
00:44:18.920 --> 00:44:20.320
<v Speaker 7>You know, it's kind of like you were seeing this

773
00:44:20.360 --> 00:44:21.880
<v Speaker 7>shadow a big monster, but then you look at it

774
00:44:21.920 --> 00:44:24.880
<v Speaker 7>and it's like, oh, actually, it's like just just something

775
00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:28.119
<v Speaker 7>that doesn't even make sense. You can again kind of

776
00:44:28.119 --> 00:44:32.559
<v Speaker 7>ground yourself and kind of make that lose lose power.

777
00:44:32.840 --> 00:44:36.440
<v Speaker 7>So I need to understand from prodder if. First of all,

778
00:44:36.440 --> 00:44:38.599
<v Speaker 7>it if it makes sense that idea of like not

779
00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:41.679
<v Speaker 7>necessarily being the cleeful but concept that people may make

780
00:44:41.719 --> 00:44:48.079
<v Speaker 7>conflict And yeah, if again, since it's always always also

781
00:44:48.159 --> 00:44:51.400
<v Speaker 7>cool to understand practically how we can use things. How

782
00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:55.800
<v Speaker 7>from your perspective, the understanding that cleifods can be something

783
00:44:55.840 --> 00:44:59.360
<v Speaker 7>practic done in practice, Like you gave the example, you know,

784
00:44:59.440 --> 00:45:03.039
<v Speaker 7>you're something gives you, compels you to do something, and

785
00:45:03.079 --> 00:45:07.000
<v Speaker 7>then you either get blocked by or you go forward.

786
00:45:07.239 --> 00:45:09.559
<v Speaker 7>You know, like what maybe are other ways of going

787
00:45:09.559 --> 00:45:13.280
<v Speaker 7>about just being aware and work around them maybe if

788
00:45:13.320 --> 00:45:15.320
<v Speaker 7>not with them.

789
00:45:15.480 --> 00:45:17.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, I just want to say that I'm so funny

790
00:45:17.480 --> 00:45:19.760
<v Speaker 2>that you brought that up, Matt, because I was honestly

791
00:45:19.800 --> 00:45:29.280
<v Speaker 2>thinking of the exact Oh sorry, Matt, I think is Mike. Sorry, Matt,

792
00:45:29.320 --> 00:45:31.480
<v Speaker 2>I didn't mean to interrupt you. I think your mic

793
00:45:31.639 --> 00:45:32.079
<v Speaker 2>cut out.

794
00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:33.800
<v Speaker 4>I think it was good.

795
00:45:34.599 --> 00:45:38.639
<v Speaker 2>Okay, anyways, uh, so, I know it was so funny

796
00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:40.199
<v Speaker 2>that he brought that up because I was just thinking

797
00:45:40.199 --> 00:45:43.079
<v Speaker 2>of solar and that exact example. Like he said that

798
00:45:43.159 --> 00:45:47.000
<v Speaker 2>we should yetify kleepa with so we should say, like

799
00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:51.480
<v Speaker 2>the kleiepa with a K. I think that's what it

800
00:45:51.559 --> 00:45:54.199
<v Speaker 2>was when we're talking about what Matt is talking about.

801
00:45:54.440 --> 00:45:59.159
<v Speaker 2>But we should hermesticize the kleepas with a que when

802
00:45:59.159 --> 00:46:02.199
<v Speaker 2>we're talking about the actual tree itself, the structural tree.

803
00:46:02.519 --> 00:46:05.280
<v Speaker 2>So I think that's a great sort of like if

804
00:46:05.320 --> 00:46:08.400
<v Speaker 2>you want to distinguish it in that way, Like klipas

805
00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:10.920
<v Speaker 2>can just be husks, right, Like they can just be

806
00:46:11.079 --> 00:46:14.960
<v Speaker 2>perceptual ideas that we have that are actually wrong. They

807
00:46:14.960 --> 00:46:18.280
<v Speaker 2>don't actually have to be anything quote unquote evil or

808
00:46:18.320 --> 00:46:22.679
<v Speaker 2>even things that obscure our view. And there's even an

809
00:46:22.679 --> 00:46:27.920
<v Speaker 2>idea in non Lorianic kabbala of the nogalla or the

810
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:33.079
<v Speaker 2>kind of illuminating husk around certain suffra. So I mean

811
00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:36.360
<v Speaker 2>it's it's it's very view dependent and like I think

812
00:46:36.480 --> 00:46:39.519
<v Speaker 2>freder rc spoke on this before that it is like

813
00:46:39.559 --> 00:46:41.920
<v Speaker 2>it there is like a context to which that you

814
00:46:41.960 --> 00:46:44.119
<v Speaker 2>can speak about it that makes will make sense to

815
00:46:44.159 --> 00:46:50.760
<v Speaker 2>the way like your worldview frames the like views the tree.

816
00:46:51.039 --> 00:46:53.400
<v Speaker 2>But then there's like different ways to understand it. Like

817
00:46:53.960 --> 00:46:56.880
<v Speaker 2>Freder was talking about Saint John of the Cross and

818
00:46:56.920 --> 00:46:59.400
<v Speaker 2>the sense aggregation, Well, we have the exact same idea

819
00:46:59.440 --> 00:47:03.599
<v Speaker 2>in Buddhism, like the five sense aggregates and the five

820
00:47:03.679 --> 00:47:07.800
<v Speaker 2>elements and the sort of five poisons of the mind.

821
00:47:08.079 --> 00:47:11.159
<v Speaker 2>So all of those things actually are also klip as.

822
00:47:11.199 --> 00:47:14.599
<v Speaker 2>We would call them Skanda's dcs, thinks and I but

823
00:47:14.679 --> 00:47:16.599
<v Speaker 2>I said this before I even knew JCS, So I

824
00:47:16.639 --> 00:47:18.519
<v Speaker 2>just want to for the record, but I always said

825
00:47:18.559 --> 00:47:22.199
<v Speaker 2>skandas are kleipas because the etymology is very similar. It

826
00:47:22.239 --> 00:47:26.360
<v Speaker 2>means aggregation. It can also mean husk or shell, and

827
00:47:26.440 --> 00:47:29.039
<v Speaker 2>so you in Buddhism, what we want to do is

828
00:47:29.079 --> 00:47:31.559
<v Speaker 2>rectify those things in our mind, because that's really where

829
00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:35.440
<v Speaker 2>klipas are initially, at least they might exist out externally

830
00:47:35.840 --> 00:47:38.440
<v Speaker 2>like as goetics or as things. I don't know. I

831
00:47:38.480 --> 00:47:41.360
<v Speaker 2>don't know but about that stuff, but I agree that

832
00:47:41.400 --> 00:47:44.119
<v Speaker 2>you shouldn't worship. I don't worship the angels, and I

833
00:47:44.159 --> 00:47:48.920
<v Speaker 2>definitely don't worship the Gotesha. But I don't consider them different. Really,

834
00:47:49.159 --> 00:47:51.480
<v Speaker 2>I just think it's one like, it's just it's just

835
00:47:51.519 --> 00:47:55.039
<v Speaker 2>the hosts, it's how we understand them. And so I

836
00:47:55.119 --> 00:47:59.440
<v Speaker 2>just maneuver the tree in that way without like assigning

837
00:47:59.519 --> 00:48:02.320
<v Speaker 2>it to be have gross spiritual forces, I would say.

838
00:48:02.519 --> 00:48:04.519
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I great, great points everybody.

839
00:48:07.079 --> 00:48:09.440
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, I don't think I've much ever heard of anyone

840
00:48:09.519 --> 00:48:13.400
<v Speaker 6>worshiping angels or kleipoat. But although I'm sure some of

841
00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:19.800
<v Speaker 6>the guys who've written the very popular Cliff Off books,

842
00:48:19.840 --> 00:48:23.960
<v Speaker 6>many of which I think it's easy to consider dark fluff,

843
00:48:24.159 --> 00:48:26.840
<v Speaker 6>as we say, but some of which have some real

844
00:48:26.920 --> 00:48:30.519
<v Speaker 6>serious scholarship and experience behind them. There's a bit of

845
00:48:30.519 --> 00:48:34.480
<v Speaker 6>both out there, that's for sure. Yeah, I would definitely

846
00:48:34.519 --> 00:48:40.239
<v Speaker 6>never worship, recommend people worshiping just part of the worship,

847
00:48:40.280 --> 00:48:43.760
<v Speaker 6>just part when you can worship. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well yeah, yeah,

848
00:48:44.480 --> 00:48:47.039
<v Speaker 6>you means as demons in the sense of the later

849
00:48:47.159 --> 00:48:50.719
<v Speaker 6>term guetia, as is used because guetia means sorcery. It means,

850
00:48:51.079 --> 00:48:55.960
<v Speaker 6>I mean, working working with any spirit essentially is guetia,

851
00:48:56.039 --> 00:49:00.920
<v Speaker 6>including working with angels, if we go by the popular definition.

852
00:49:01.360 --> 00:49:04.920
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I'm sorry, I'm using the contemporary left hand.

853
00:49:05.000 --> 00:49:06.840
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, no, I get it. Where we're oh, yeah.

854
00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:10.039
<v Speaker 2>They're talking about like they're assigning directly one to one

855
00:49:10.280 --> 00:49:13.280
<v Speaker 2>like Lilith and the Cleapa of your sead. They're saying

856
00:49:13.320 --> 00:49:18.000
<v Speaker 2>that that is identical, and I would say that, no,

857
00:49:18.079 --> 00:49:21.199
<v Speaker 2>it's conceptual. That's how I would approach it. That's all. Sorry,

858
00:49:21.199 --> 00:49:24.280
<v Speaker 2>so absolutely semantic choice. I apologize for sure.

859
00:49:24.559 --> 00:49:26.719
<v Speaker 6>No, I get it. And that's the biggest danger of

860
00:49:27.119 --> 00:49:31.639
<v Speaker 6>viewing this tree of evil and the inverse tree as

861
00:49:31.679 --> 00:49:34.480
<v Speaker 6>a separate thing to the Tree of life, right, because

862
00:49:34.480 --> 00:49:37.760
<v Speaker 6>you're losing your it's going beyond dualism at that point,

863
00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:42.559
<v Speaker 6>you're going into full on yeah, reified emanationism and thinking

864
00:49:42.599 --> 00:49:46.639
<v Speaker 6>that that you have to like progress from one step

865
00:49:46.679 --> 00:49:49.880
<v Speaker 6>to the next to experience the fullness, or that you

866
00:49:49.960 --> 00:49:52.559
<v Speaker 6>have to go to a certain dark place to experience

867
00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:55.280
<v Speaker 6>a certain dark thing. It's not really true. We can

868
00:49:55.400 --> 00:49:59.559
<v Speaker 6>experience anything anywhere all the time in my in my experience,

869
00:49:59.599 --> 00:50:01.840
<v Speaker 6>and that's my theoretical understanding as well.

870
00:50:05.559 --> 00:50:05.920
<v Speaker 4>Thank you.

871
00:50:07.199 --> 00:50:10.519
<v Speaker 6>Maybe I can, oh see, I made some notes of

872
00:50:10.599 --> 00:50:13.599
<v Speaker 6>examples of ways I look at it in my workshop

873
00:50:14.119 --> 00:50:16.639
<v Speaker 6>and my book, so I'll see if I can pull

874
00:50:16.719 --> 00:50:20.519
<v Speaker 6>up some of those as exemplars as we continue to

875
00:50:20.559 --> 00:50:20.960
<v Speaker 6>go along.

876
00:50:21.360 --> 00:50:24.480
<v Speaker 4>Sure. Did anybody have any other questions?

877
00:50:25.880 --> 00:50:27.360
<v Speaker 8>I did have a quick question.

878
00:50:28.719 --> 00:50:33.920
<v Speaker 10>As you compare it to being the dark you mentioned

879
00:50:33.960 --> 00:50:37.320
<v Speaker 10>earlier about people mistaking it for the left hand path.

880
00:50:39.639 --> 00:50:41.559
<v Speaker 8>Could you expand on that a little bit.

881
00:50:44.280 --> 00:50:51.199
<v Speaker 6>Well, I think people who are oh okay, so yeah,

882
00:50:51.360 --> 00:50:55.360
<v Speaker 6>there's this the idea of this left hand path and

883
00:50:55.440 --> 00:50:58.360
<v Speaker 6>right hand path thing that's been imported to the West

884
00:50:59.000 --> 00:51:01.719
<v Speaker 6>in the same district way that the West has often

885
00:51:01.760 --> 00:51:07.760
<v Speaker 6>tried to export Western constructions into Eastern thought, with very

886
00:51:08.719 --> 00:51:14.719
<v Speaker 6>little success or value and often destructive results to the

887
00:51:14.760 --> 00:51:18.480
<v Speaker 6>original ideas right like, for example, karma. You know, what

888
00:51:18.599 --> 00:51:22.519
<v Speaker 6>we've done with karmen in the West is completely obliterated

889
00:51:22.719 --> 00:51:26.519
<v Speaker 6>the original meanings, whether you take it as a social

890
00:51:26.559 --> 00:51:30.599
<v Speaker 6>structure imposed by Brahmins or in the spiritual sense seen

891
00:51:30.719 --> 00:51:34.480
<v Speaker 6>in the context of dharma. Western views of that have

892
00:51:34.599 --> 00:51:38.920
<v Speaker 6>led to all kinds of wacky spiritual ideas, and I

893
00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:40.840
<v Speaker 6>think we all know what those are, so it doesn't

894
00:51:40.880 --> 00:51:43.800
<v Speaker 6>need to be drawn out. But just so, when we

895
00:51:43.960 --> 00:51:46.960
<v Speaker 6>import these right hand why do people call people like

896
00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:49.519
<v Speaker 6>me right hand path? It's not a self def it's

897
00:51:49.519 --> 00:51:52.639
<v Speaker 6>not a term we use. And so the same people

898
00:51:52.679 --> 00:51:54.840
<v Speaker 6>that will label us right hand path or left hand

899
00:51:54.880 --> 00:51:57.559
<v Speaker 6>path are the same people who are usually whining about

900
00:51:58.119 --> 00:52:02.119
<v Speaker 6>cultural appropriation. It's like, so you're complaining about cultural appropriation,

901
00:52:02.480 --> 00:52:05.400
<v Speaker 6>but you're imposing a term on me that I reject

902
00:52:06.039 --> 00:52:08.119
<v Speaker 6>and saying it doesn't matter if I reject it, it's

903
00:52:08.119 --> 00:52:11.480
<v Speaker 6>still true. Well, how does that work both ways? Would

904
00:52:11.519 --> 00:52:14.679
<v Speaker 6>you like it if we started labeling you terms that

905
00:52:14.719 --> 00:52:19.000
<v Speaker 6>you don't like and find repugnant? Would that elucidate more

906
00:52:19.079 --> 00:52:22.599
<v Speaker 6>about the nature of you? If we start imposing terms

907
00:52:22.639 --> 00:52:25.559
<v Speaker 6>on you that don't have any place in your spiritual world,

908
00:52:25.800 --> 00:52:29.880
<v Speaker 6>it's just not very helpful. And So in the path

909
00:52:29.920 --> 00:52:33.880
<v Speaker 6>that I've followed my whole life, which has got elements

910
00:52:33.880 --> 00:52:37.320
<v Speaker 6>of Kabbala in it, there's no right hand left hand path.

911
00:52:37.360 --> 00:52:40.239
<v Speaker 6>There's just the middle path of consciousness. The middle pillar

912
00:52:40.440 --> 00:52:43.599
<v Speaker 6>is the pillar of consciousness created by the tension and

913
00:52:43.639 --> 00:52:48.280
<v Speaker 6>polarity of jachinim Boaz, And that's the path right does

914
00:52:48.320 --> 00:52:52.159
<v Speaker 6>it sometimes wind to and fro absolutely, But that's not

915
00:52:52.400 --> 00:52:56.719
<v Speaker 6>how consciousness raises upward on the tree of life. That's

916
00:52:56.760 --> 00:53:00.840
<v Speaker 6>why in grade structures like the Golden Dawn, our grade

917
00:53:00.880 --> 00:53:04.199
<v Speaker 6>structure only goes straight up the tree. We don't actually

918
00:53:04.239 --> 00:53:07.480
<v Speaker 6>have any grades on the right or left hand pillar.

919
00:53:08.239 --> 00:53:11.840
<v Speaker 6>That's an illusion, and that's something that you find out

920
00:53:11.880 --> 00:53:14.400
<v Speaker 6>only after getting to a certain point. So yes, I

921
00:53:14.440 --> 00:53:16.280
<v Speaker 6>did just spoil that for a lot of people. But

922
00:53:16.800 --> 00:53:20.599
<v Speaker 6>tough shit, because this idea of going first to get

923
00:53:20.639 --> 00:53:23.320
<v Speaker 6>sometimes to the right and then sometimes to the left,

924
00:53:24.119 --> 00:53:27.480
<v Speaker 6>it's just not real. It's just not real, certainly not

925
00:53:27.559 --> 00:53:30.599
<v Speaker 6>in the Golden Dawn tradition, though it may have been

926
00:53:31.880 --> 00:53:35.039
<v Speaker 6>rareified in other traditions that were based on the Golden Dawn.

927
00:53:35.360 --> 00:53:37.960
<v Speaker 6>And that again is not necessarily a bad thing. I

928
00:53:37.960 --> 00:53:41.159
<v Speaker 6>think it depends how it's dealt with methodologically in the

929
00:53:41.239 --> 00:53:46.760
<v Speaker 6>system of spiritual progressions. So yeah, left hand path. People

930
00:53:47.719 --> 00:53:49.079
<v Speaker 6>want to do what they want to do with it,

931
00:53:49.119 --> 00:53:51.000
<v Speaker 6>and that's fine. You know, they're on their own path,

932
00:53:51.039 --> 00:53:54.239
<v Speaker 6>which has nothing in common with what people like me

933
00:53:54.320 --> 00:53:57.719
<v Speaker 6>are doing. So there's really no point comparing them, right,

934
00:53:57.760 --> 00:54:01.840
<v Speaker 6>You don't compare. You don't compare the strength of an

935
00:54:01.880 --> 00:54:06.239
<v Speaker 6>Olympic weightlifter to the strength of a downhill skier and

936
00:54:06.280 --> 00:54:09.360
<v Speaker 6>see which one is a better athlete because the completely

937
00:54:09.360 --> 00:54:10.119
<v Speaker 6>different sports.

938
00:54:12.199 --> 00:54:15.199
<v Speaker 2>Well, in defense of the lhpbros, of which I consider

939
00:54:15.239 --> 00:54:17.199
<v Speaker 2>myself at least a little bit of one.

940
00:54:17.079 --> 00:54:19.000
<v Speaker 6>Please do defend them, please do.

941
00:54:18.920 --> 00:54:21.360
<v Speaker 2>I well, I mean, this is the thing is that

942
00:54:21.440 --> 00:54:24.239
<v Speaker 2>in Tontra because it's Tontra, right, Like Tntra is sorcery,

943
00:54:24.480 --> 00:54:26.519
<v Speaker 2>like you were talking about go Edia, and like how

944
00:54:26.559 --> 00:54:29.480
<v Speaker 2>that also means sorcery, Like Tantra is also sorcery, but

945
00:54:29.519 --> 00:54:33.199
<v Speaker 2>it's a methodological sorcery that also affects your mind, but

946
00:54:33.280 --> 00:54:37.840
<v Speaker 2>it's also for external and spiritual benefit. So it's it

947
00:54:38.280 --> 00:54:41.400
<v Speaker 2>just it just resolves the three body problem. But I

948
00:54:41.440 --> 00:54:43.639
<v Speaker 2>agree that it is a that you should approach the

949
00:54:43.679 --> 00:54:45.639
<v Speaker 2>tree from the middle path. This is something that Matt's

950
00:54:45.679 --> 00:54:49.400
<v Speaker 2>heard me say, like probably hundreds of times in the

951
00:54:49.480 --> 00:54:51.880
<v Speaker 2>last two and a half years since we've been doing

952
00:54:51.920 --> 00:54:54.400
<v Speaker 2>the Gray Lodge. I always said, like the way that

953
00:54:54.400 --> 00:54:56.320
<v Speaker 2>at least we're going to do the show is that

954
00:54:56.320 --> 00:54:58.400
<v Speaker 2>we're going to approach the tree from the middle path.

955
00:54:58.800 --> 00:55:02.320
<v Speaker 2>But there's also an Tontric idea of the middle path

956
00:55:02.599 --> 00:55:06.559
<v Speaker 2>as being a positionless position, meaning that you don't get

957
00:55:06.559 --> 00:55:08.960
<v Speaker 2>caught in extremity. So very similar to what you're saying, Frater,

958
00:55:09.360 --> 00:55:12.280
<v Speaker 2>but it is a little different because we can still

959
00:55:12.440 --> 00:55:19.320
<v Speaker 2>draw from the polarities, but it's not the resolution of

960
00:55:19.360 --> 00:55:22.199
<v Speaker 2>paradox or the result or the sort of balancing of

961
00:55:22.280 --> 00:55:26.920
<v Speaker 2>tensions is not necessarily found either in extremity. So like

962
00:55:27.519 --> 00:55:29.880
<v Speaker 2>I personally don't work with angels in the same way

963
00:55:29.920 --> 00:55:31.800
<v Speaker 2>that I don't work with I'm going to call them

964
00:55:31.840 --> 00:55:35.960
<v Speaker 2>go atic spirits with the acknowledgment that that is a

965
00:55:35.960 --> 00:55:39.400
<v Speaker 2>more contemporary idea, but I'm really talking about like the

966
00:55:39.440 --> 00:55:42.880
<v Speaker 2>spirits of the lesser keys. So I personally don't work

967
00:55:42.920 --> 00:55:46.119
<v Speaker 2>with any of those spirits because I'm obviously a Tontraic Buddhist,

968
00:55:46.119 --> 00:55:48.840
<v Speaker 2>so I work with like the cosmology that we use.

969
00:55:49.760 --> 00:55:53.239
<v Speaker 2>But I so I don't need to resolve like either

970
00:55:53.320 --> 00:55:59.280
<v Speaker 2>the right hand traumonic more like monastic ascetic ideas with

971
00:55:59.360 --> 00:56:02.519
<v Speaker 2>the more sorceress ideas, because I also understand that I'm

972
00:56:02.599 --> 00:56:06.639
<v Speaker 2>using magic, using sorcery to resolve those paradoxes in and

973
00:56:06.679 --> 00:56:10.000
<v Speaker 2>of themselves, but it's also of my own mind. So

974
00:56:10.119 --> 00:56:13.400
<v Speaker 2>what I'm saying is is, like I I don't think

975
00:56:13.440 --> 00:56:15.480
<v Speaker 2>that a lot of those left hand path ideas are

976
00:56:15.519 --> 00:56:18.840
<v Speaker 2>wrong or bad. I actually think that they're very pragmatic

977
00:56:18.920 --> 00:56:22.199
<v Speaker 2>and useful at times. I think what happens is is

978
00:56:22.239 --> 00:56:25.960
<v Speaker 2>that they get twisted and then in popular culture and then

979
00:56:26.000 --> 00:56:29.480
<v Speaker 2>can sort of get distillated down into a kind of

980
00:56:30.679 --> 00:56:34.519
<v Speaker 2>I'm a depressed goth edge lord and like as someone

981
00:56:34.599 --> 00:56:38.679
<v Speaker 2>who was like a depressed goth, like all right, and

982
00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:42.079
<v Speaker 2>so they they treat it like it's gospel. They treat

983
00:56:42.119 --> 00:56:44.519
<v Speaker 2>it like it's gospel. It's kind of like the anti

984
00:56:45.159 --> 00:56:50.119
<v Speaker 2>Christianity for the anti like everything that is good, like

985
00:56:50.159 --> 00:56:54.639
<v Speaker 2>the anti anti cosmic and like we have talked about

986
00:56:54.760 --> 00:56:56.920
<v Speaker 2>discussed many times, like Judith and I have this long

987
00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:00.679
<v Speaker 2>running sort of dialogue about Mott on the show, and

988
00:57:02.039 --> 00:57:04.920
<v Speaker 2>like I believe in like the balancing of the polarities.

989
00:57:05.000 --> 00:57:09.199
<v Speaker 2>So like I personally don't see the I don't see

990
00:57:09.199 --> 00:57:13.239
<v Speaker 2>the point in being like completely I don't reject the body,

991
00:57:13.280 --> 00:57:15.920
<v Speaker 2>and I don't reject the spirit and I but I'm

992
00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:19.840
<v Speaker 2>also like trying to resolve those things that tension body

993
00:57:19.880 --> 00:57:22.960
<v Speaker 2>spirit tension in my own mind. So I'm not trying

994
00:57:23.000 --> 00:57:27.280
<v Speaker 2>to deny anything or go so far into hedonism either.

995
00:57:27.679 --> 00:57:31.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm very much like we need to do what is

996
00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:37.719
<v Speaker 2>like generative and reconciliatory, like in rectifiable, like we go

997
00:57:37.760 --> 00:57:39.960
<v Speaker 2>to we go to tiffer It, we come back down

998
00:57:40.039 --> 00:57:43.599
<v Speaker 2>to aisode we you know, resolve the resolve the four

999
00:57:43.599 --> 00:57:46.119
<v Speaker 2>elements or five elements in contra and then we go

1000
00:57:46.199 --> 00:57:48.480
<v Speaker 2>back up. It's the dialectical relationship between the five and

1001
00:57:48.480 --> 00:57:51.960
<v Speaker 2>the six. I'm obviously using five as not in the

1002
00:57:52.199 --> 00:57:54.440
<v Speaker 2>traditional cabalistic way, but I'm using five as in the

1003
00:57:54.480 --> 00:57:58.599
<v Speaker 2>Buddhist way, which is like primordial consciousness, primordial ground where

1004
00:57:58.639 --> 00:58:01.519
<v Speaker 2>the five elements converge. But but it refers to you,

1005
00:58:01.639 --> 00:58:05.159
<v Speaker 2>so really, so that's what I think it is. I

1006
00:58:05.159 --> 00:58:08.599
<v Speaker 2>think that the left time path can be really generative

1007
00:58:08.599 --> 00:58:12.280
<v Speaker 2>and useful as conceptual ideas. But like with all conceptual

1008
00:58:12.360 --> 00:58:16.960
<v Speaker 2>knowledge that is not like true nosis. You can utilize it,

1009
00:58:17.159 --> 00:58:19.440
<v Speaker 2>but then you have to also, like a husk, like

1010
00:58:19.480 --> 00:58:22.480
<v Speaker 2>a cleep up, you also have to discard it. It's

1011
00:58:22.519 --> 00:58:26.719
<v Speaker 2>not useful to contain the fullness of an identity. Like

1012
00:58:26.719 --> 00:58:28.840
<v Speaker 2>you see this a lot on IG. You'll see people

1013
00:58:28.880 --> 00:58:32.599
<v Speaker 2>be like left hand path anti cosmic. I know, I

1014
00:58:32.639 --> 00:58:33.880
<v Speaker 2>have a lot of them following me, and I like

1015
00:58:33.960 --> 00:58:36.480
<v Speaker 2>some of them, like some of them are like cool people,

1016
00:58:36.639 --> 00:58:39.679
<v Speaker 2>cool mutuals, whatever. But then they'll have pronouns in their bio.

1017
00:58:39.960 --> 00:58:42.559
<v Speaker 2>Then they will have like political ideas in their bio.

1018
00:58:42.760 --> 00:58:46.119
<v Speaker 2>And I'm not saying that that's horrifying or whatever, but

1019
00:58:46.400 --> 00:58:49.039
<v Speaker 2>I'm just saying like, what if you are so edge lord,

1020
00:58:49.760 --> 00:58:55.079
<v Speaker 2>then why are you so stuck on identities? The more

1021
00:58:55.199 --> 00:58:56.920
<v Speaker 2>edge lord thing is to be like, Okay, I'm going

1022
00:58:56.960 --> 00:58:59.559
<v Speaker 2>to let the identities go. I'm not going to like,

1023
00:59:01.719 --> 00:59:04.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to position myself within a klipa, because

1024
00:59:04.320 --> 00:59:06.840
<v Speaker 2>that is what identities and those kinds of names are.

1025
00:59:07.519 --> 00:59:10.519
<v Speaker 2>They're just husks that we use to contain who we

1026
00:59:10.599 --> 00:59:13.679
<v Speaker 2>think we are. I don't know, this is an interesting idea.

1027
00:59:15.440 --> 00:59:21.840
<v Speaker 6>Okay, yeah, I think that's very, very dead on insight.

1028
00:59:22.159 --> 00:59:27.559
<v Speaker 6>To quote one of my favorite Austrians, Christoph Waltz, that's

1029
00:59:27.599 --> 00:59:28.119
<v Speaker 6>a bingo.

1030
00:59:30.599 --> 00:59:31.679
<v Speaker 4>Why does it sound familiar?

1031
00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:37.559
<v Speaker 6>I've put, uh, what's inglorious, bastards, I've put the link

1032
00:59:37.679 --> 00:59:40.559
<v Speaker 6>for people to buy their very own copy of the

1033
00:59:40.599 --> 00:59:43.679
<v Speaker 6>Book of Horns there in the chat. So go spend

1034
00:59:43.719 --> 00:59:47.360
<v Speaker 6>twenty nine books for a beautifully crafted hardcover book like

1035
00:59:47.400 --> 00:59:53.679
<v Speaker 6>most Jewish texts, and support your local rabbis through that purchase. PA,

1036
00:59:54.960 --> 00:59:58.400
<v Speaker 6>And yeah, it's a book that I'm sure as a

1037
00:59:58.400 --> 01:00:01.400
<v Speaker 6>result of me sharing it, the link there and this

1038
01:00:01.480 --> 01:00:06.679
<v Speaker 6>chat will be now featured on many people's live streams

1039
01:00:06.679 --> 01:00:12.440
<v Speaker 6>and many grifters private schools where they they they tell

1040
01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:14.519
<v Speaker 6>you that just by having that book you will either

1041
01:00:14.559 --> 01:00:18.119
<v Speaker 6>be cursed or have mighty power. So yeah, I call

1042
01:00:18.239 --> 01:00:21.880
<v Speaker 6>I'm helping the Satanic panic two point zero wonderful.

1043
01:00:22.800 --> 01:00:25.079
<v Speaker 4>Oh God. By next week you'll be associated with the

1044
01:00:25.079 --> 01:00:26.039
<v Speaker 4>Process church too.

1045
01:00:27.400 --> 01:00:29.880
<v Speaker 6>Dear Lord, Saints preserve us.

1046
01:00:30.800 --> 01:00:33.719
<v Speaker 2>There's nothing wrong with process theology. Just let me say,

1047
01:00:33.760 --> 01:00:35.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm not trying to get you in trouble, Nick, but

1048
01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:38.840
<v Speaker 2>you know what I was getting. I know exactly what

1049
01:00:38.840 --> 01:00:39.119
<v Speaker 2>you're doing.

1050
01:00:39.199 --> 01:00:40.639
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, what's wrong with Paul Tillick?

1051
01:00:43.360 --> 01:00:46.760
<v Speaker 4>There's nothing else I was making inside joke with you.

1052
01:00:47.199 --> 01:00:49.440
<v Speaker 6>Do you have a cardinal electric head? Do you have

1053
01:00:49.480 --> 01:00:52.239
<v Speaker 6>an issue with Alfred North Whitehead?

1054
01:00:52.719 --> 01:00:54.039
<v Speaker 4>No, No, not at all.

1055
01:00:54.079 --> 01:00:58.239
<v Speaker 6>Actually we should talk when I have you on my podcast, Jim,

1056
01:00:58.280 --> 01:01:01.159
<v Speaker 6>we got to talk about process theology. That's something I'm

1057
01:01:01.360 --> 01:01:02.880
<v Speaker 6>highly educated in.

1058
01:01:03.440 --> 01:01:04.599
<v Speaker 2>Oh, I don't know that much.

1059
01:01:05.360 --> 01:01:07.599
<v Speaker 4>Actually, I would have you on that if you know,

1060
01:01:07.599 --> 01:01:08.920
<v Speaker 4>I would love to have you on for that. Then

1061
01:01:09.039 --> 01:01:10.480
<v Speaker 4>I didn't know that that was something you were into

1062
01:01:10.559 --> 01:01:10.920
<v Speaker 4>as well.

1063
01:01:11.079 --> 01:01:13.800
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, talking about Paul Tillic. Paul Tillic was a very

1064
01:01:13.800 --> 01:01:17.480
<v Speaker 6>interesting twentieth century theology theologian who brought Alfred North white

1065
01:01:17.559 --> 01:01:21.920
<v Speaker 6>Head's ideas into theological popularity, and it was definitely a

1066
01:01:21.960 --> 01:01:28.079
<v Speaker 6>major when I was in seminary. Paul Tillic. Yeah, T

1067
01:01:28.239 --> 01:01:33.000
<v Speaker 6>I L L I c H. Wonderful theologian. I mean,

1068
01:01:33.079 --> 01:01:35.320
<v Speaker 6>do I think everything he says is the true theology? No,

1069
01:01:35.400 --> 01:01:37.880
<v Speaker 6>that's not the point of theology. But does he have

1070
01:01:37.920 --> 01:01:42.960
<v Speaker 6>some really interesting ideas about God? Absolutely? Absolutely, very appropriate

1071
01:01:43.079 --> 01:01:46.559
<v Speaker 6>especially to his time and place, but very useful in

1072
01:01:46.599 --> 01:01:49.039
<v Speaker 6>a changing world because it takes account of change. I mean,

1073
01:01:49.199 --> 01:01:52.280
<v Speaker 6>people say that the Roman Catholic Church, the Roman Catholic

1074
01:01:52.360 --> 01:01:57.760
<v Speaker 6>Church says that they've never changed and their theology necessitates

1075
01:01:57.800 --> 01:02:00.440
<v Speaker 6>that point of view, even though all evidence points to

1076
01:02:00.480 --> 01:02:03.960
<v Speaker 6>the contrary. So they could they they've they could do

1077
01:02:04.000 --> 01:02:06.719
<v Speaker 6>with a little bit more process theology, which would just

1078
01:02:06.760 --> 01:02:10.000
<v Speaker 6>be them admitting like, yeah, yeah, we do change. But

1079
01:02:10.039 --> 01:02:12.199
<v Speaker 6>they're not allowed to say that because it would contradict

1080
01:02:12.239 --> 01:02:14.960
<v Speaker 6>their own doctrines. So the Catholics are fucked.

1081
01:02:15.639 --> 01:02:18.519
<v Speaker 2>Well, we can we could just say we everybody should

1082
01:02:18.519 --> 01:02:22.519
<v Speaker 2>go read Carl Jaspers on axialism. That would that's actually

1083
01:02:22.559 --> 01:02:25.719
<v Speaker 2>a really good introduction to a process theology as like

1084
01:02:25.760 --> 01:02:28.960
<v Speaker 2>a sort of conceptual thing, because it's really not based

1085
01:02:29.000 --> 01:02:31.719
<v Speaker 2>in Western It's not that it's not Western and it's

1086
01:02:31.719 --> 01:02:33.760
<v Speaker 2>not that there isn't a place for it. It absolutely is,

1087
01:02:34.159 --> 01:02:37.519
<v Speaker 2>as Freighter is saying, But the idea of axualism is

1088
01:02:37.559 --> 01:02:42.119
<v Speaker 2>actually much much older and probably actually converges with our

1089
01:02:42.159 --> 01:02:45.079
<v Speaker 2>idea of Kabbala. And where it even came from, and

1090
01:02:45.119 --> 01:02:48.360
<v Speaker 2>if you like me positive as coming from Persia in

1091
01:02:48.400 --> 01:02:50.760
<v Speaker 2>the second century, I'm not saying it was invented there.

1092
01:02:51.480 --> 01:02:54.679
<v Speaker 2>I'm saying it came out of the second Exile period

1093
01:02:54.719 --> 01:02:59.239
<v Speaker 2>from Babylon, and it was probably something that the Zoroastrians

1094
01:02:59.239 --> 01:03:02.199
<v Speaker 2>were looking at, and the Jews were there, and the

1095
01:03:02.239 --> 01:03:05.360
<v Speaker 2>Manichaeans were there, and the Mandians were there, and everybody's

1096
01:03:05.400 --> 01:03:07.840
<v Speaker 2>looking at this tree which may or may not have

1097
01:03:07.880 --> 01:03:09.719
<v Speaker 2>been a tree, like DCS talks a lot about this,

1098
01:03:09.800 --> 01:03:12.519
<v Speaker 2>like there are Sufi ideas of the tree. I became

1099
01:03:12.559 --> 01:03:16.320
<v Speaker 2>a podcaster because I sort of stumbled upon what I

1100
01:03:16.360 --> 01:03:18.119
<v Speaker 2>think is a version of the tree, which is called

1101
01:03:18.119 --> 01:03:20.639
<v Speaker 2>the Mahavidja grouping, which is a grouping of ten goddesses,

1102
01:03:20.840 --> 01:03:23.639
<v Speaker 2>which Nick and I did three years ago on this show.

1103
01:03:23.800 --> 01:03:28.159
<v Speaker 2>We discussed how you can understand the ten goddesses to

1104
01:03:28.559 --> 01:03:30.960
<v Speaker 2>mean the Sefra and I did an eleven part series

1105
01:03:30.960 --> 01:03:34.760
<v Speaker 2>on et cetera, et cetera. Okay, so yeah, there's many

1106
01:03:34.840 --> 01:03:36.519
<v Speaker 2>I think there's many versions of the tree, is what

1107
01:03:36.559 --> 01:03:38.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm trying to say. And I think that it's there's

1108
01:03:38.960 --> 01:03:45.679
<v Speaker 2>a sort of fundamental nature where you I'm sorry, I

1109
01:03:45.880 --> 01:03:47.519
<v Speaker 2>totally forgot where I was going with that, but yeah,

1110
01:03:47.760 --> 01:03:49.440
<v Speaker 2>I agree with a lot of what you were saying Frater,

1111
01:03:49.519 --> 01:03:53.559
<v Speaker 2>and like there is definitely a kind of convergence of

1112
01:03:53.639 --> 01:03:59.199
<v Speaker 2>ideas and then a sort of splitting of where the

1113
01:03:59.239 --> 01:04:01.760
<v Speaker 2>tree went. So I think that if you're looking at

1114
01:04:01.760 --> 01:04:05.280
<v Speaker 2>it from that perspective, you're seeing like, Okay, there's a

1115
01:04:05.559 --> 01:04:10.400
<v Speaker 2>Arisitilian dialectic of time, space, light and dark. And this

1116
01:04:10.559 --> 01:04:14.079
<v Speaker 2>matches very very well to sort of late stage or Astrianism,

1117
01:04:14.119 --> 01:04:17.719
<v Speaker 2>which is called Jervinism, where they obviously assigned God the

1118
01:04:17.800 --> 01:04:21.679
<v Speaker 2>quality of time, but in the originals or Astrian thinking,

1119
01:04:21.719 --> 01:04:24.400
<v Speaker 2>you're not supposed to assign God any quality, which is

1120
01:04:24.440 --> 01:04:27.400
<v Speaker 2>also interesting from a rabbinical perspective because you're also not

1121
01:04:27.440 --> 01:04:31.960
<v Speaker 2>supposed to assign God an equality. But hesse, that's God's

1122
01:04:32.000 --> 01:04:34.039
<v Speaker 2>really only quality is loving kindness.

1123
01:04:34.159 --> 01:04:36.800
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah.

1124
01:04:36.840 --> 01:04:39.440
<v Speaker 2>I just thought it was an interesting point, like maybe

1125
01:04:39.480 --> 01:04:42.800
<v Speaker 2>they were playing with this idea of axialism, the four

1126
01:04:42.880 --> 01:04:46.199
<v Speaker 2>quadrants and seeing like, okay, well we can turn and

1127
01:04:46.239 --> 01:04:49.599
<v Speaker 2>like So that obviously parallels yade Vave as well, because

1128
01:04:49.639 --> 01:04:52.480
<v Speaker 2>you get like the king, the Queen, the princess, and

1129
01:04:52.559 --> 01:04:55.199
<v Speaker 2>the prince. So you already have like a sort of

1130
01:04:55.239 --> 01:05:00.880
<v Speaker 2>swastika sort of wheel turning idea. Right, I mean, that's

1131
01:05:00.920 --> 01:05:03.360
<v Speaker 2>really what process theology is in my opinion. It's like

1132
01:05:03.400 --> 01:05:06.599
<v Speaker 2>this axial system where the world tree or the world

1133
01:05:06.840 --> 01:05:09.880
<v Speaker 2>wheel is always turning. We're always in progress, We're always

1134
01:05:10.159 --> 01:05:11.760
<v Speaker 2>sort of in the process of becoming.

1135
01:05:13.800 --> 01:05:18.119
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, so I wonder how much people are getting in

1136
01:05:18.159 --> 01:05:21.840
<v Speaker 6>the in the of what you're saying. Let me this

1137
01:05:21.920 --> 01:05:26.039
<v Speaker 6>might help a very the most simple definition of process

1138
01:05:26.079 --> 01:05:29.480
<v Speaker 6>theology for everyone in the Peanut gallery, thanks for being here.

1139
01:05:29.519 --> 01:05:32.480
<v Speaker 6>It's an honor, to a privilege to be amongst such

1140
01:05:32.960 --> 01:05:36.679
<v Speaker 6>wonderful folks and all of you. But the simplest definition

1141
01:05:36.719 --> 01:05:40.400
<v Speaker 6>would be interpreting God in a way that changes and

1142
01:05:40.599 --> 01:05:46.880
<v Speaker 6>grows with the world. So God that is in process,

1143
01:05:46.960 --> 01:05:49.760
<v Speaker 6>just like the world's in process. And this is Paul

1144
01:05:49.800 --> 01:05:56.639
<v Speaker 6>Tillick's theology that he drew from Alfred North Whitehead's philosophy.

1145
01:05:56.920 --> 01:06:00.159
<v Speaker 6>So we adapted Whitehead's philosophical ideas into theological and so

1146
01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:04.000
<v Speaker 6>they'd be useful for Christians in the twentieth century. And

1147
01:06:04.360 --> 01:06:08.320
<v Speaker 6>someone in the chat actually pointed out the major critique

1148
01:06:08.360 --> 01:06:11.840
<v Speaker 6>of process theology, which is actually really good. Lucy rose Up.

1149
01:06:11.840 --> 01:06:14.039
<v Speaker 6>Thanks for saying that. Well, I don't know if this

1150
01:06:14.079 --> 01:06:16.239
<v Speaker 6>is what they were intending to comment on, but they

1151
01:06:16.239 --> 01:06:19.239
<v Speaker 6>say it's been all cherry picking aka changing as they go.

1152
01:06:19.840 --> 01:06:22.719
<v Speaker 6>That's exactly the critique of process theology. And when you

1153
01:06:22.760 --> 01:06:25.559
<v Speaker 6>study the stuff in theological colleges, they let you know

1154
01:06:25.639 --> 01:06:28.880
<v Speaker 6>all the criticisms of something as you go along. Of course,

1155
01:06:29.159 --> 01:06:30.800
<v Speaker 6>they're not meant to teach you what they think is true.

1156
01:06:30.840 --> 01:06:33.280
<v Speaker 6>They're meant to teach you how to think. That's what

1157
01:06:33.400 --> 01:06:36.280
<v Speaker 6>all schools should be teaching you, of course, and that

1158
01:06:36.400 --> 01:06:39.079
<v Speaker 6>is the criticism. Now, the response to that criticism is like,

1159
01:06:40.119 --> 01:06:44.920
<v Speaker 6>process theology maybe done bad, is cherry picking, right, But

1160
01:06:45.360 --> 01:06:48.960
<v Speaker 6>what it's intended to do is allow you to accept

1161
01:06:48.960 --> 01:06:51.559
<v Speaker 6>and reject those things which allow you to know God

1162
01:06:51.599 --> 01:06:54.440
<v Speaker 6>better as time moves on. So in the past certain

1163
01:06:54.480 --> 01:06:57.800
<v Speaker 6>things were necessary for us to know God better, but

1164
01:06:57.960 --> 01:06:59.960
<v Speaker 6>in the modern day, maybe some of those things don't

1165
01:07:00.079 --> 01:07:03.239
<v Speaker 6>help us know God anymore. And so they can be

1166
01:07:03.280 --> 01:07:08.039
<v Speaker 6>discarded in favor of other ideas or other folki along

1167
01:07:08.039 --> 01:07:11.519
<v Speaker 6>the way. So that's a basic idea of process theology.

1168
01:07:11.920 --> 01:07:16.719
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, sorry, Freighter, that was perfect, Thank you. That

1169
01:07:16.960 --> 01:07:19.760
<v Speaker 2>was a great summation of what I was trying to

1170
01:07:19.800 --> 01:07:23.760
<v Speaker 2>get towards using my of mythopoetic.

1171
01:07:23.199 --> 01:07:24.800
<v Speaker 6>You said very interesting things.

1172
01:07:25.400 --> 01:07:26.599
<v Speaker 2>Okay, well things. I appreciate that.

1173
01:07:26.639 --> 01:07:28.920
<v Speaker 6>I love hearing it. I love hearing it from an

1174
01:07:28.960 --> 01:07:32.559
<v Speaker 6>Eastern practitioner's point of view. It's so interesting because I

1175
01:07:32.599 --> 01:07:34.360
<v Speaker 6>don't know if you recall I grew up in an

1176
01:07:34.400 --> 01:07:37.440
<v Speaker 6>Eastern tradition. I didn't grow up in Christianity at all, right.

1177
01:07:37.480 --> 01:07:41.159
<v Speaker 6>I grew up in a yoga Maharishi family cult environment,

1178
01:07:41.480 --> 01:07:44.880
<v Speaker 6>and that was really wonderful. Yeah, my parents were hardcore

1179
01:07:44.960 --> 01:07:48.360
<v Speaker 6>Maharishi people, and my whole extended that was my whole world.

1180
01:07:48.440 --> 01:07:51.039
<v Speaker 6>I remember first hearing about Christian churches. I remember in

1181
01:07:51.119 --> 01:07:53.440
<v Speaker 6>kindergarten not being allowed to go back to play with

1182
01:07:53.559 --> 01:07:57.039
<v Speaker 6>friends who I met in kindergarten because I at some

1183
01:07:57.159 --> 01:07:59.079
<v Speaker 6>point along the day I asked when we had to

1184
01:07:59.079 --> 01:08:02.159
<v Speaker 6>go win our meditation dictation time was and they looked

1185
01:08:02.199 --> 01:08:04.440
<v Speaker 6>at me like concerned, and I would describe what I

1186
01:08:04.440 --> 01:08:06.519
<v Speaker 6>was talking about how my parents would do the yogic

1187
01:08:06.519 --> 01:08:09.679
<v Speaker 6>flying thing and bounce up and down, you know, during

1188
01:08:09.719 --> 01:08:12.000
<v Speaker 6>their mantras when they were channeling their Kundlini to the

1189
01:08:12.000 --> 01:08:14.320
<v Speaker 6>base of spine, allowing them to shoot up and do

1190
01:08:14.400 --> 01:08:18.359
<v Speaker 6>their levitating. And you know, I'm sure the kindergartener parents

1191
01:08:18.359 --> 01:08:21.119
<v Speaker 6>were horrified, and I didn't go back to their house again.

1192
01:08:21.960 --> 01:08:24.479
<v Speaker 6>And along the way I found out about Christianity and

1193
01:08:24.640 --> 01:08:27.159
<v Speaker 6>was like, what is this new fangled thing all everyone

1194
01:08:27.239 --> 01:08:28.119
<v Speaker 6>does but us?

1195
01:08:29.640 --> 01:08:32.159
<v Speaker 2>Actually, Matt and I know someone who's really into the

1196
01:08:32.199 --> 01:08:37.960
<v Speaker 2>Maharishi stuff. So it's really interesting that you say that. Yeah,

1197
01:08:38.039 --> 01:08:41.720
<v Speaker 2>I mean, look, I just try and approach like Cabala.

1198
01:08:41.720 --> 01:08:44.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm using that as like a broad label to refer

1199
01:08:44.560 --> 01:08:46.960
<v Speaker 2>to the klipa as well. But for me, I just

1200
01:08:47.039 --> 01:08:49.680
<v Speaker 2>approach it as Buddhist like as I am. I don't

1201
01:08:49.720 --> 01:08:53.159
<v Speaker 2>try and put my own preconceptions onto it. Now because

1202
01:08:53.159 --> 01:08:56.840
<v Speaker 2>I'm in dialogue with DCS, I have had to sort

1203
01:08:56.840 --> 01:08:58.800
<v Speaker 2>of up my game, like you were talking about, like

1204
01:08:58.840 --> 01:09:00.720
<v Speaker 2>get a little better at the heat brew, get a

1205
01:09:00.720 --> 01:09:05.640
<v Speaker 2>little better at the sort of like way that he

1206
01:09:05.920 --> 01:09:09.439
<v Speaker 2>describes it. Because I'm much more of an experiential like

1207
01:09:09.680 --> 01:09:12.279
<v Speaker 2>Cabala's like, that's how I encountered the tree was through

1208
01:09:12.359 --> 01:09:16.520
<v Speaker 2>experienced sepharotic experience like color and conceptual word. But they

1209
01:09:16.520 --> 01:09:19.800
<v Speaker 2>didn't appear like that to me necessarily. It was much

1210
01:09:19.840 --> 01:09:22.359
<v Speaker 2>more like through the lens of contra. So even how

1211
01:09:22.399 --> 01:09:24.680
<v Speaker 2>I approach the tree is interesting. So it is interesting

1212
01:09:24.680 --> 01:09:26.479
<v Speaker 2>to me that you pick that up. So thank you, Frader,

1213
01:09:26.479 --> 01:09:27.279
<v Speaker 2>I appreciate that.

1214
01:09:29.680 --> 01:09:33.840
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, no problem. Let me give another example from my

1215
01:09:34.000 --> 01:09:37.000
<v Speaker 6>workshop and books so that people can understand my point

1216
01:09:37.039 --> 01:09:40.159
<v Speaker 6>of view. So one of the things that I think

1217
01:09:40.199 --> 01:09:43.600
<v Speaker 6>is important in the context that I'm approaching these things,

1218
01:09:43.600 --> 01:09:46.680
<v Speaker 6>which is through Kenneth Grant's Knight's Side of Eden and

1219
01:09:46.760 --> 01:09:50.359
<v Speaker 6>through the Golden Dawn hermetic kabbola. If you like that

1220
01:09:50.479 --> 01:09:52.479
<v Speaker 6>term for it, I think it's a fine term. I mean,

1221
01:09:52.920 --> 01:09:54.880
<v Speaker 6>I don't know if there's much hermetica about it other

1222
01:09:54.960 --> 01:09:57.640
<v Speaker 6>than the people who were doing that form of Christian

1223
01:09:57.720 --> 01:10:05.840
<v Speaker 6>kabbala happened to be. But that's a debate for another time. Eh. So,

1224
01:10:06.079 --> 01:10:09.199
<v Speaker 6>Like my central thesis is looking at the Kleephoath not

1225
01:10:09.520 --> 01:10:14.439
<v Speaker 6>just as e spooky externals, but as mirrors of your

1226
01:10:14.479 --> 01:10:19.000
<v Speaker 6>own corruption. And when you do that, you of course

1227
01:10:19.079 --> 01:10:22.000
<v Speaker 6>have to realize that we see the sphere out of

1228
01:10:22.079 --> 01:10:26.039
<v Speaker 6>the Tree of Life as macrocosmic and the paths is microcosmic.

1229
01:10:26.399 --> 01:10:29.399
<v Speaker 6>So from a certain point of view, we never experienced

1230
01:10:29.399 --> 01:10:32.600
<v Speaker 6>the sephar at all. We only experience them through the

1231
01:10:33.079 --> 01:10:36.119
<v Speaker 6>paths that we walk, and the only connection between the

1232
01:10:36.199 --> 01:10:40.239
<v Speaker 6>spheres is the paths that we connect to them. And

1233
01:10:40.319 --> 01:10:43.000
<v Speaker 6>so Kenneth Grant makes this point actually really well. It's

1234
01:10:43.000 --> 01:10:45.039
<v Speaker 6>one of the things I really liked about Nightside Veeden

1235
01:10:45.359 --> 01:10:47.720
<v Speaker 6>back in the nineties, and still like it today as

1236
01:10:47.760 --> 01:10:52.520
<v Speaker 6>I've been rereading it from a older and wiser point

1237
01:10:52.520 --> 01:10:55.199
<v Speaker 6>of view. And so Kenneth Grant points out that his

1238
01:10:55.279 --> 01:10:58.760
<v Speaker 6>tunnels of Set, as he calls them, are microcosmic and

1239
01:10:58.840 --> 01:11:03.800
<v Speaker 6>the spheres are acrocosmic, just like we see in the

1240
01:11:03.840 --> 01:11:06.079
<v Speaker 6>Tree of Life. As it's understood in the Golden Dawn

1241
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<v Speaker 6>in the in the nineteenth century and still today, those

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<v Speaker 6>ideas are generally what's taught. So the book treats the

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<v Speaker 6>tunnels of Set as inner realities that connect the evil

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<v Speaker 6>Sephra or the Klipo to each other. So the only

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<v Speaker 6>reason these dark things connect is because we connect them

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<v Speaker 6>with our lives and actions, which is an interesting idea

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<v Speaker 6>to keep in mind, would they even exist without us?

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<v Speaker 6>Probably not. And so when you look at this in

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<v Speaker 6>terms of the seven Deadly sins, I look at sloth,

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<v Speaker 6>which is not laziness, but it's spiritual abandonment when the

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<v Speaker 6>sweetness of the work is gone. And I say in

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<v Speaker 6>the book sloth is the abandonment of spiritual work and

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<v Speaker 6>ritual work at this point, at which Saint Johnathan Cross

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<v Speaker 6>refers to in the dark Knight of the Sentences. And

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<v Speaker 6>so the great work must be pursued past the stage

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<v Speaker 6>of transcendental lust and astral inspirations to the saturnine point

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<v Speaker 6>of aridity. And the real test isn't whether you practice

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<v Speaker 6>when it feels magical, it's whether you keep going when

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<v Speaker 6>it feels dry. These are all quotes from the book,

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<v Speaker 6>which some of which I'll keep in, some of which

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<v Speaker 6>I will rewrite, rework and turn into new and brilliant paragraphs.

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<v Speaker 6>So yeah, I essentially argue that devotion matters more than

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<v Speaker 6>spiritual thrills. Probably won't be a shocker to anyone here.

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<v Speaker 6>And another quote is I say the work becomes true.

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<v Speaker 6>Work becomes true invoking into it the spirit only when

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<v Speaker 6>the goal of pleasure is replaced by the impetus of devotion.

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<v Speaker 6>So one of my main messages is that pleasure is

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<v Speaker 6>not the measure of truth in spiritual work, of course,

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<v Speaker 6>and that's just an example of my approach and the

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<v Speaker 6>I think important differentiation between subjective and object realities. In

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<v Speaker 6>this particular interpretation of the Tree of Evil.

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<v Speaker 11>Close your eyes, look into the darkness, find the blazing.

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<v Speaker 1>Storm, focus on and become the eclipse. Don't feel that

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<v Speaker 1>the show will be doing and guess

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<v Speaker 2>You is Sue