Speaker 1: You see somethings going to happen.
Speaker 2: What's going to happen?
Speaker 3: What I.
Speaker 4: Welcome back to the occult rejects. Tonight we're welcoming back
Speaker 4: a returning guests and a fan favorite, someone our audience
Speaker 4: already knows that brings real substance when the conversation turns serious, complex,
Speaker 4: and deep into the tradition. Tonight we're joined once again
Speaker 4: by Freda RCI. Freda RC has become a respected voice
Speaker 4: for many students of Western ESO terrorism because he has
Speaker 4: a rail ability to take material that is often buried
Speaker 4: under fear confusion into that mythology and sensationalism and bring
Speaker 4: it back into a serious, initiatory and historical frame. And
Speaker 4: that is exactly what makes him the right guess for
Speaker 4: tonight's subject, because tonight we're stepping into one of the
Speaker 4: most charged and misunderstood territories and occultism, the clipoff. This
Speaker 4: is one of those subjects that people love to reference,
Speaker 4: love to speculate about, and very often do not actually understand.
Speaker 4: Depending on the system, the clipoff is are described as shells, husks,
Speaker 4: shattered vessels, this shadow or inverse side of the tree,
Speaker 4: fallen emanations, and pure powers or initiatory zones of descent.
Speaker 4: For some, it is a path of confront confrontation, and transformation.
Speaker 4: For others, it is spiritually dangerous territory that has been
Speaker 4: glamorized far beyond wisdom. And that is where tonight's conversation begins.
Speaker 4: What is the clipoff really? What does the idea come
Speaker 4: from historically? How does it develop from Jewish mystical thought
Speaker 4: into later occult systems. Is it truly a map of evil?
Speaker 4: Or is it that? Or is it that far too simplistic?
Speaker 4: What happens when modern practitioners approach it without grounding, without context,
Speaker 4: or without understanding what tradition originally meant by the forces?
Speaker 4: And why has the clip off become such a magnetic
Speaker 4: subject in modern occultism. Tonight we're going to slow the
Speaker 4: whole thing down. We're going to separate symbolism from projection,
Speaker 4: tradition from invention, in serious initiatory discussion from aestheticized darkness.
Speaker 4: So once again we're returning us, once once again, returning
Speaker 4: to the o cult rejects as a fan favorite. We
Speaker 4: got fred er RC. But before I introduce him and
Speaker 4: the rest of the panel, I do have an announcement
Speaker 4: I like to make On Saturday, April twenty fifth, the
Speaker 4: Southeastern Masonic Symposium is happening at the Asheville Masonic Temple
Speaker 4: and that is at eighty Broadway Street in Asheville, North Carolina,
Speaker 4: and I will be there in person, So come on
Speaker 4: down and meet me and the rest of the crew
Speaker 4: and the people speaking. We will have John Michael Greer,
Speaker 4: he will be there. We got a guy who's been
Speaker 4: on the show a few times will be coming on
Speaker 4: in the future, Colin Conkright from American Esoteric. And we
Speaker 4: got the man himself, Ike Baker from our Candem podcast.
Speaker 4: He will be there. And Tom Carter. So come on down.
Speaker 4: It should be a blast. And also want to remind
Speaker 4: people about the website if you're into reading. We have
Speaker 4: tons of information by multiple contributors and we got t
Speaker 4: shirts up on the site if you're interested and fun fact,
Speaker 4: the art is all based on the eyeball. Now let
Speaker 4: me introduce the rest of the panel and the guests.
Speaker 4: Judith the Loom, what is going on? How are you.
Speaker 5: Hello?
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me, Welcome back, Grey to RC
Speaker 3: and everyone else. You could catch me on YouTube and
Speaker 3: on x as the loom and I've just started the
Speaker 3: podcast with special editions on Spreaker, so you can catch
Speaker 3: me there too.
Speaker 4: Thank you awesome, Thank you very much Judith and my
Speaker 4: man Jinda Ninja. It's been a bit so happy to
Speaker 4: have you back, sir. How are you?
Speaker 2: What's up, boss mister ninety three? I am quite well.
Speaker 2: I have to say if people want to thank you
Speaker 2: for having me on and thank you Judith, Matt and
Speaker 2: freder RC appreciate it. So I have a show called
Speaker 2: Threshold saying I'm just going to read what someone recently
Speaker 2: wrote about it because it was quite a good review.
Speaker 2: I'm proud of it. Really really great episode. Never seen
Speaker 2: this podcast before, but it's like Martyr Made Across with
Speaker 2: Terrence McKenna meets cipherpunk, chaos, magic, schizophosting. Really good. So
Speaker 2: that is in reference to my latest three part series
Speaker 2: with Satchke, who is a Jewish cabalist, his sern researcher,
Speaker 2: inventor of crystal quantum computing. He does loms and AI
Speaker 2: and all this tech stuff, and he draws a lot
Speaker 2: from Robert Anton Wilson and like the Discordions as well
Speaker 2: as a Jewish coubala. So we had a like eight
Speaker 2: and a half hour discussion and I cut it up
Speaker 2: into three episodes which are about only an hour and
Speaker 2: a half each, but they're all different, and so if
Speaker 2: you're interested in something like that, I also released an
Speaker 2: episode with bead Sillerno on the Dark Crystal film from
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty two, as well as I have an episode
Speaker 2: with Ike Baker coming out either tonight or so everybody
Speaker 2: can look for that, and thank you guys so much.
Speaker 2: And we will have a Gray Lodge space probably this Friday,
Speaker 2: so I just I'll shout that out right now live.
Speaker 2: So if you're interested in that, check us out. You
Speaker 2: can follow me at wukomri born, wq wh and g
Speaker 2: Reborn or at the Threshold Saints on X and I
Speaker 2: G and as well my Subseac Threshold Saints at subseact
Speaker 2: dot com and at the True Gray Lodge dot com
Speaker 2: t r V, which Matt Mura is obviously the webmaster
Speaker 2: and our social media web coordinator. Thank you so much, Matt,
Speaker 2: and so yeah, everybody can check us out. Thank you
Speaker 2: guys so much.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, thank you very much. And again I'm glad
Speaker 4: you're here, especially with this topic. And Matt my man
Speaker 4: so happy to get you on again. What is up, Bud?
Speaker 6: What is up?
Speaker 7: Happy to be here again, Glad to see proder once again, Jim,
Speaker 7: you and Judith. As always, you can find me as
Speaker 7: at mettmore nineteen. That's going to be on all socials, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok,
Speaker 7: maybe some other places Twitter and so on and so on.
Speaker 7: And yeah, I've been working in the shadows on some stuff,
Speaker 7: one of them being the GA Mood project. So if
Speaker 7: you want to learn more, enter the mood dot com
Speaker 7: or just dm me you know, explain. But very cool
Speaker 7: stuff going on there. Uh recent update and again yes,
Speaker 7: Also there's a library that I've been using a lot,
Speaker 7: especially with AI. If you have Claude you can use it.
Speaker 7: It's a library I made called Cabala k A A
Speaker 7: B A L A H. I've been using a lot
Speaker 7: for transits for example. It can copulate the transits for
Speaker 7: me very quickly and then it can interpret them. But yeah,
Speaker 7: super nice stuff. Again, do you have any questions about that,
Speaker 7: Just them me on any of those and I'll quickly
Speaker 7: let you know how it goes.
Speaker 4: Awesome. Thank you very much, Matt, and again I'm glad
Speaker 4: you here. Finally the man himself. Frida, please let everybody
Speaker 4: know where they can find all of your work and
Speaker 4: anything you'd like to promote.
Speaker 6: So you can find me at Hermetic Mystery School dot
Speaker 6: com for learning spirituality and magic and theorgy, or for
Speaker 6: just being part of my free community there called a
Speaker 6: cyber Guild, and we have a fun now and then
Speaker 6: with some free lectures and other resources. Hermetic podcast dot
Speaker 6: com is my podcasts and you can go there, and
Speaker 6: there's Patreon and YouTube. Memberships has blown up the past
Speaker 6: few months and so I've got a lot of stuff
Speaker 6: there for members that is not available elsewhere, and we
Speaker 6: have a good time on the new discord I made
Speaker 6: due to demand at last after many years boomers style
Speaker 6: and I don't know how it works, which apparently people
Speaker 6: find even more adorable. So I've shared some unique stuff
Speaker 6: there as well. But most importantly, I am hosting two
Speaker 6: major events this year through the Arcane In Research Society,
Speaker 6: which I founded back in twenty nineteen and did a
Speaker 6: world tour by which by world, of course, we mean
Speaker 6: Europe and America starting in Canada, and you can go
Speaker 6: to our Kinresearch Society dot com Forward Slash twenty twenty
Speaker 6: six for this year's events, we're a Nokia Con dot com,
Speaker 6: which is the conference we'll have in Austin, Texas November
Speaker 6: sixth through eighth. Our Spring Workshop has just been well,
Speaker 6: I'm waiting for the final call right now to confirm
Speaker 6: it in Austin on June thirteenth, and as soon as
Speaker 6: I do, I'll release our video promo for that, and
Speaker 6: that will be an all day workshop in a full
Speaker 6: We have a great, great venue downtown Austin that we
Speaker 6: have the run of, and the workshop will feature three
Speaker 6: three hour workshops, one by myself on what I'm on
Speaker 6: the topic of today and I'll say more about that
Speaker 6: of course throughout the hour or whatever. And the other
Speaker 6: two workshop presenters, I don't know what their topics of
Speaker 6: will be yet for their workshops, but they're both renowned
Speaker 6: presenters and authors. So those people are Jason Louve and
Speaker 6: fellow Austin native Craig Williams, who's incredibly a remarkable author,
Speaker 6: very prolific and a wonderful guy. So there'll be the
Speaker 6: three of us there this June for our Spring Workshop.
Speaker 6: And you can access both those events online or in
Speaker 6: person by getting an annual membership at Arcane Research Society
Speaker 6: dot com.
Speaker 4: Awesome, thanks for having me, of course, Man, No, thank
Speaker 4: you so much. I'm glad to get you back on
Speaker 4: regardless what the topic was. Uh, all right, So I mean,
Speaker 4: I guess to get into it, I mean, what would
Speaker 4: you say, you know, for listeners who have heard the
Speaker 4: word but don't really know what he even means, what
Speaker 4: is like the clearest way to even define the clipot?
Speaker 4: You want to say.
Speaker 6: Literally literally as shells or husks, and the visualizations that
Speaker 6: you would naturally have go along with that term is
Speaker 6: are very appropriate, right, you know, the the pearl in
Speaker 6: the oyster, the cephera in the oyster, in the husk
Speaker 6: in the klippa, and or as a husk. You know,
Speaker 6: you don't grind up husks with your grains to make food.
Speaker 6: You get rid of the husk so that you can
Speaker 6: find the nutrients of the grain within, unless you're like
Speaker 6: me and can't eat grains. So that's the best way
Speaker 6: to think of CLiPPA, by the word that the Jewish
Speaker 6: mystics and rabbis use to describe it. I mean, and
Speaker 6: as we know today, the significance of those Jewish mystics
Speaker 6: and magicians is more significant than we ever realized. I
Speaker 6: only just today received my copy of Galas Sofer's amazing
Speaker 6: new academic book from Brill, which of course you have
Speaker 6: to sell a kidney to purchase. I found a secondhand
Speaker 6: copy for half price, only one hundred dollars. And doctor
Speaker 6: Angela Puka has just putting out a video of breaking
Speaker 6: this down with really great visual aids. So shout out
Speaker 6: to doctor Puka for doing the heavy lifting for a
Speaker 6: lot of us. But this text, for example, shows the
Speaker 6: Jewish origins of the Solomonic magic tradition centered around demon workings,
Speaker 6: shall we say so? The CLiPPA have often been sort
Speaker 6: of thought of apart from the Solomonic or Western magical systems,
Speaker 6: and something that entered late. But what gal Soofer's work
Speaker 6: shows is perhaps one in One of the many things
Speaker 6: it shows is that we can place a much earlier
Speaker 6: understanding of the rule of clipote in the Western magical
Speaker 6: traditions than previously we could before. So that's a preliminary understanding.
Speaker 6: You want me to keep going. Let me say, there's
Speaker 6: so many interpretations of the clippote, the CLiPPA, the cliff off,
Speaker 6: and I'm going to say them. The word in every
Speaker 6: possible pronunciation you can imagine, just so that no one
Speaker 6: feels excluded. That would be bad. The only and if
Speaker 6: anyone debate wants to debate the correct way to spell
Speaker 6: the word, well there's only one correct way to spell
Speaker 6: the word, and that's in Hebrew. Colahmid you know, I
Speaker 6: think there's a yacht in there, or is there a
Speaker 6: yeah ud pay hey? I should probably know it's spelled
Speaker 6: in the Hebrew. But that's okay, So cliff off, clipote,
Speaker 6: clipa whatever once plural one's not. I address this like
Speaker 6: what I'm doing at the Spring workshop is is giving
Speaker 6: a The first thing I became known for in the
Speaker 6: magical world was in the late nineties early two thousands
Speaker 6: for giving a workshop on a text I wrote in
Speaker 6: the Golden Dawned at the end of my Outer Order training,
Speaker 6: which I call I can't remember the original name, but
Speaker 6: I published it as Sacred Magic and the Clipote, and
Speaker 6: that's been my most successful little you know, pamphlet or
Speaker 6: book that is sold on Amazon. It's dropped in sales
Speaker 6: during the pandemic as someone'st and sold it on Scribbed
Speaker 6: and made fifteen grand and my royalties dropped from three
Speaker 6: point fifty down to twenty bucks a month, so I
Speaker 6: may sue scribbed at some point if I ever have
Speaker 6: the resources. I certainly have the evidence, and as a result,
Speaker 6: I have been working on rewriting, entirely updating it since
Speaker 6: the late nineties, where you can imagine my understanding of
Speaker 6: these things was a lot more limited. Plus I was
Speaker 6: a teenager, so I started giving this workshop based on
Speaker 6: that text that I wrote as part of my Golden
Speaker 6: Dawn training from practice to portal, and the workshop took forevers.
Speaker 7: You know.
Speaker 6: It was modeled on using as a hermeneutic Saint John
Speaker 6: of the Cross's Seven Deadly Sins understanding found in his
Speaker 6: book The Dark Knight of the Soul, and that was
Speaker 6: sort of the modus by which we explored them theurgically.
Speaker 6: The workshop went over like a house on fire. It
Speaker 6: lasted five hours. By the end of the workshop, my
Speaker 6: classroom at the first temple I delivered, it was full
Speaker 6: of adepts to where skin being out of their own
Speaker 6: duties just to listen in to what this little kid
Speaker 6: was saying, which was very flattering, of course, and it
Speaker 6: led to me being invited to temples around the world
Speaker 6: to give this workshop and I was never allowed to
Speaker 6: not give this workshop every year there on out for
Speaker 6: the rest of my time in that order, and so
Speaker 6: I haven't given the workshop since then. But my understanding
Speaker 6: of the Klippote has changed since then, or not changed,
Speaker 6: but grown and developed and matured, especially as I became
Speaker 6: an adult and dealt with life and learned to go
Speaker 6: from knowledge or from information and knowledge to wisdom, you
Speaker 6: could say. And so I'm very excited for the second
Speaker 6: edition of that text. I have a new title for it,
Speaker 6: and then I'll discontinue the current version that is currently online,
Speaker 6: and I'll be giving that workshop for the first time
Speaker 6: ever since since two thousand and three down in Austin, Texas,
Speaker 6: free for all members of the Arcane Research Society. And
Speaker 6: I'm going to try and fit it into three hours.
Speaker 6: So it's going to be an intense three hour morning
Speaker 6: of Cliffo and theorgy and spirituality from me that day.
Speaker 1: That's awesome.
Speaker 4: You mentioned that, like your idea of it changed. I
Speaker 4: guess as you're kind of you know, learning it or
Speaker 4: practicing and researching it whatever over time. How did you
Speaker 4: originally look at it? And like, how do you see
Speaker 4: it today? Is it different?
Speaker 6: I don't think the way I see it today is different.
Speaker 6: It's just I have a fuller understanding of Taye. Plus
Speaker 6: I have the lived experience when I when I wrote
Speaker 6: about it initially, I was looking at the role of
Speaker 6: that kind of spiritual struggle in the context also of
Speaker 6: Saint John of the Cross is understanding of the spiritual journey,
Speaker 6: and in the Dark Knight of the Soul, Saint John
Speaker 6: of the Cross divides that journey into two parts, the
Speaker 6: Dark Knight of the Senses and then ten fifteen years
Speaker 6: later or something like that, you might, if you're lucky,
Speaker 6: go through a really brutal experience called the Dark Knight
Speaker 6: of the Spirit. Ironically, in the book The Dark Knight
Speaker 6: of the Soul, there is no experience called the Dark
Speaker 6: Knight of the Soul. So, and as you might surprisingly,
Speaker 6: that is actually a good thing because it means that
Speaker 6: there's no need to get upset with someone when they
Speaker 6: say they went through a Dark Knight of the soul,
Speaker 6: because John of the Cross never talks about a Dark
Speaker 6: Knight of the Soul. He talks about the Dark Knight
Speaker 6: of the Senses and the Dark Knight of the Spirit,
Speaker 6: and they're very specific things with specific signifiers, and so
Speaker 6: I did get to go through that dark Knight of
Speaker 6: the Spirit in my thirties. It was exactly as he described,
Speaker 6: and I didn't even understand I was going through it
Speaker 6: at the time, because to be able to go through
Speaker 6: it you have to have been challenged by certain things
Speaker 6: in certain ways that would necessitate you not really being
Speaker 6: aware of what you're slipping into in life. Yeah, so
Speaker 6: that was interesting, and I have perspective on that now
Speaker 6: and I have a sense of the reality of it,
Speaker 6: and that's I think very interesting and could be perhaps
Speaker 6: helpful to others. I shouldn't fail to mention also the
Speaker 6: fabulous work done by one of my modern living alchemical
Speaker 6: cabalistic heroes, which is the great David heim Smith and
Speaker 6: his book Black Ether and his course on that is
Speaker 6: something that has also rounded out my understanding of these
Speaker 6: things and given me some new perspectives, especially since I
Speaker 6: also follow a monistic view of reality, which is, you know,
Speaker 6: necessary in the hermetic path, and he also follows that
Speaker 6: monistic view, which is not necessary in the coblistic path.
Speaker 6: There's lots of coblistic duelists out there, I think.
Speaker 2: Let me just jump in there, Frader, I'm so glad
Speaker 2: that you shout out DCS. Shout out DCS. Ever the
Speaker 2: Boy Book, Two Headed Arrow, it's very, very, very good.
Speaker 2: I would not say that DCS follows a monistic He's
Speaker 2: very he's very anti theistic or a like.
Speaker 6: I'm not talking about theism.
Speaker 2: Okay, he wouldn't know. He's derive himself as monistic, though
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say that personally.
Speaker 6: I mean that he went on a whole tear about
Speaker 6: how that's his point of view when the first time
Speaker 6: he was on my podcast, like that was the big
Speaker 6: thing he was pushing is is there's there's one essential reality,
Speaker 6: not not true. Hescribes it in terms of non emanationist,
Speaker 6: and that's a more accurate way to describe it, non emanationist.
Speaker 6: You're right that monistic can imply theism. So so that's
Speaker 6: a very fair point. Thanks. Oh no, I just wanted
Speaker 6: to David Smith is a theist heaven forbid?
Speaker 2: Well, No, it's because Freder. This is the reason I
Speaker 2: clarified it for myself is because I followed that non
Speaker 2: theistic and a non dualist model when it comes to
Speaker 2: Cabala in general. So I have a very similar not
Speaker 2: exactly the same, but a very similar framework for mapping
Speaker 2: out the tree that David does. So that's why I said,
Speaker 2: because if I I speak on the panel tonight, I
Speaker 2: want it to be clear that I'm also not coming
Speaker 2: from like a theistic or monastic perspective. I'm coming from
Speaker 2: like a Buddhist nondualist sort of like a post Lurianic
Speaker 2: sort of DCS perspective. So that's all.
Speaker 6: Yeah, the word theism, in my opinion, necessarily indicates dualism,
Speaker 6: because if you have theism, you must have dualism because
Speaker 6: you're stating that there is a source or a being
Speaker 6: outside of something else, and that would necessitate a dualism.
Speaker 6: So yeah, I consider it. Yeah, we definitely share the
Speaker 6: same points of view on that for sure, and that
Speaker 6: is the Hermetic point of view as well.
Speaker 4: Freder Uh, when people like talk about the clip of today,
Speaker 4: clip of whatever to say this thing, do you think
Speaker 4: that like they kind of misunderstood or maybe not talking
Speaker 4: about the same thing originally was you think there's a misunderstanding.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, that's the biggest problem with it these days, and
Speaker 6: it stems from the fact that literally no one is
Speaker 6: reading the most significant core text on the clip boat.
Speaker 6: People are drawing what they know from it, from the Zohar,
Speaker 6: which is totally fair, and from other bits of texts
Speaker 6: in teachings of different cabalistic schools. And that's the key.
Speaker 6: There's different cabalistic schools, and therefore the idea that there's
Speaker 6: one reality to the clipboat or only one paradigm in
Speaker 6: which you can understand them is absurd. Everyone's gonna look
Speaker 6: at things in their own way. So you have people
Speaker 6: who are personifying them and treating them as demons of
Speaker 6: the guetia and working with them like that. You have
Speaker 6: people who are treating them a left hand path, people
Speaker 6: who are treating them like just gods there to work
Speaker 6: with theurgically in the same spiritual way you would work
Speaker 6: with any other deity like Osiris or Jesus or Zeus
Speaker 6: or Odin. And then they're like, oh, Thamiel purified me.
Speaker 6: It's like we are not talking about the same thing.
Speaker 6: Then we're not on the same page. There is no
Speaker 6: conversation there possible between those two points of view other interpretations.
Speaker 6: I think there is room for some dialogue, but I
Speaker 6: think it's important to understand that we have such different
Speaker 6: paradigms of these things, and often people want to have
Speaker 6: this unified find some unified or meaning or reality to everything,
Speaker 6: and it just doesn't work that way, because again, we
Speaker 6: should have different, different paradigms and perspectives. So there's definitely
Speaker 6: a variety of many forms of clippoat. When I wrote
Speaker 6: Sacred Magic in the Clapoat, it came out of a
Speaker 6: real occult struggle, right. It was definitely not the perspective.
Speaker 6: Weren't even allowed to use the names, speak them out
Speaker 6: loud or any or ever show them to members of
Speaker 6: lower grade in the Golden Dawn Order I was in,
Speaker 6: and certainly we didn't see them as any form of
Speaker 6: aesthetics that a lot of our I'm chair folks and
Speaker 6: diabolists like to see them as this sort of creative
Speaker 6: esthetic of like, oh, there's the chaos in the world
Speaker 6: and I love dark music. I play dark music. I
Speaker 6: love that stuff. Prep you know, But but that's that's
Speaker 6: not what you know. I I was dealing with them
Speaker 6: with I was looking at you, seeing them and understanding
Speaker 6: them as as realities that cause evil, absolutely, that that
Speaker 6: thwart us on our way to where we want to go.
Speaker 6: And so I like in the but I do right
Speaker 6: in the preps of my book. Here's a line I
Speaker 6: do right, Sometimes we must transgress a little too far
Speaker 6: in order to learn what is the what is the
Speaker 6: limit of safe spiritual progress up the mountain? And you
Speaker 6: can imagine that that would be the idea of a
Speaker 6: seventeen year old in the grade of practicue learning the
Speaker 6: clipothic names and trees and hierarchies for the first time
Speaker 6: reading Kenneth Grant's Night Side of Eden and as an aquarius,
Speaker 6: and you know, defining my experience of life through personal experience. Obviously,
Speaker 6: I was inclined to push the envelope a little bit
Speaker 6: and it absolutely almost killed me. So for me, the
Speaker 6: clipoths are not just monstrous externals or sensational symbols. They
Speaker 6: reveal what is in us, unpurified, misdirected, or spiritually asleep.
Speaker 6: And one of the central ideas in the book that
Speaker 6: I'll be challenging and reclarifying is that as the path
Speaker 6: gets real, the glamour starts to fade. So another thing
Speaker 6: I say in the book is sloth is the abandonment
Speaker 6: of spiritual and of spiritual and ritual work. At this
Speaker 6: point of which Saint Johnathan Cross calls the dark Knight
Speaker 6: of the Senses, and so you can see why I
Speaker 6: need to rewrite the book there that sense could be
Speaker 6: a bit better. But it is this idea we'd look
Speaker 6: I look at the sins in relationship to the clip
Speaker 6: boat in a very different way than people usually understand
Speaker 6: the sins today, following from Saint on. And so this
Speaker 6: is where the work really begins. And it's why I
Speaker 6: say in the book work becomes true invoking into the
Speaker 6: spirit only when the goal of pleasure is replaced by
Speaker 6: the impetus of devotion.
Speaker 4: Thank you. That was like really well said that. I
Speaker 4: think you like actually answered like three questions I had
Speaker 4: at once.
Speaker 2: That was great, excellent.
Speaker 6: Yeah, the book is the best twenty bucks you'll ever spend.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I happened. Twenty dollars.
Speaker 6: Maybe it's lest maybe it's fourteen.
Speaker 4: Actually that's cheap compared to like what they're going for.
Speaker 6: Well, I had to drop it below the price of
Speaker 6: people who had stolen it were selling it to compete
Speaker 6: with me.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 6: Wow, Yeah, I lost what I during the period during
Speaker 6: the period in lockdown in which it was illegal to
Speaker 6: work for two and a half years, I lost my
Speaker 6: number one selling book and fifteen thousand dollars of income
Speaker 6: over three and a half years gone. And uh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 6: that's a very very clear example of cliffland, right, someone
Speaker 6: has the ability to create something, they go get something
Speaker 6: from someone else.
Speaker 7: Ye, get the flow away and so on.
Speaker 6: So yeah, absolutely, what an excellent point. Oh my god,
Speaker 6: that's I didn't think of that. That is my.
Speaker 5: Clip poth book got clipoth by a clippoth. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 5: Oh my god, it's amazing.
Speaker 4: Did anybody have any questions before I start going forward
Speaker 4: with the other ones?
Speaker 8: I do have a quick question, if you don't mind,
Speaker 8: Fred Arc for those of us that are unfamiliar with
Speaker 8: the history of cliff Off, can you share with us
Speaker 8: the root of it and how it is developed throughout
Speaker 8: I guess society and ceremonial margin.
Speaker 6: Yeah, so there are there are good writings and researchers
Speaker 6: on the cliphoth. One of the things I didn't do,
Speaker 6: because I just didn't have the Hebrew skill at the time,
Speaker 6: was compile or study or research a history of interpretation
Speaker 6: of the clip off, which is how something came into
Speaker 6: being and how it was interpreted throughout time in various ways.
Speaker 6: I wasn't able to do that because I had zero
Speaker 6: Hebrew other than the memorization of the alphabet. Of course,
Speaker 6: by the time I finished my Master's of Divinity at
Speaker 6: UBC and had graduated from Seminary, I had two years
Speaker 6: of Hebrew grad school Hebrew under my belt and a
Speaker 6: year of Aramaic, so I was able to start digging
Speaker 6: into that stuff. But I didn't because I had I
Speaker 6: was busied with doctoral studies and playing music and things,
Speaker 6: so it's something I never did. I'll be point blank
Speaker 6: about that. But the clip us originate in the Zohar.
Speaker 6: I believe that is the first instance of them originating,
Speaker 6: and they were discussed in other rabbinic texts throughout the
Speaker 6: from the Middle Ages onward. And I'm not sure the
Speaker 6: extent of which text they're discussed in that would You
Speaker 6: would need to talk to a Jewish scholar to know
Speaker 6: the full extent. But I do know that the major text,
Speaker 6: the one and only major text on the Cleipoat, is
Speaker 6: something that no one reads other than me. I've translated
Speaker 6: the first several pages of it, but it was taking
Speaker 6: me so long to translate. I outsourced that to a
Speaker 6: Jewish professor and translator who I met through Marcelo del
Speaker 6: Debio's Brazilian podcast. This was the translator who worked with Marcello,
Speaker 6: and so he put us, me and my friend, my
Speaker 6: magical working partner, in touch with him to have us
Speaker 6: to translate the book. And so we paid him a
Speaker 6: lot of money and he strung us along for a year,
Speaker 6: then deleted his Telegram account and Marcelo del Wio ignored
Speaker 6: all my messages and so we got ripped off for
Speaker 6: a lot of money and never got the work translated.
Speaker 6: So you don't all have the Book of Horns Sefer
Speaker 6: Karnaim to enjoy and read at this point in time,
Speaker 6: because Marcelo del de Wio and his buddy are thieves
Speaker 6: and scam artists. Man, that's fucked up. It's increasing. And
Speaker 6: I have, of course, I have all the receipts because
Speaker 6: we have the PayPal transaction. We have all the texts
Speaker 6: and all the message we have everything. And I found
Speaker 6: the translator on Facebook now just trucking along like nothing happened.
Speaker 6: And well, I think the clip out might have their
Speaker 6: way with him at some point, and it won't be
Speaker 6: because of me, It'll be his own evil actions.
Speaker 9: Well like that, you're fair your own demons, You know
Speaker 9: what I'm saying, yeah, no, no, no, I was gonna say,
Speaker 9: like you were saying, he's creating his own kleep us
Speaker 9: the offender.
Speaker 6: So absolutely, Yeah. Actually I was gonna grab the Book
Speaker 6: of Horns, the Sefra Karnaim to show you, guys, how
Speaker 6: you know you can get a beautiful copy. You know,
Speaker 6: Jews have wonderful binding services for all their books that
Speaker 6: make them available quite affordably. And I did look for
Speaker 6: my pages of translating the first part of that that
Speaker 6: I pay instakeingly did and showed to Israeli friend, just
Speaker 6: to make sure I wasn't, you know, totally off my rocker,
Speaker 6: and so that was good, but I couldn't translate the
Speaker 6: whole thing, and no, I just don't have time. It
Speaker 6: would be great if someone did translate it. I might
Speaker 6: be willing to pay someone else to translate it. But
Speaker 6: you can imagine my reticence at this stage.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, it's it's very, very fucked up. Because
Speaker 7: I watched this this guy in Marcello's for a bit
Speaker 7: and I was gonna say.
Speaker 6: Like one oft we were friends.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I was gonna say one of his examples for
Speaker 7: the Klifa. It makes it interesting. It's like an interesting
Speaker 7: point of view, Like for example, he always says, oh,
Speaker 7: imagine like you have had right, so the ability to communicate,
Speaker 7: and then you can use that either for being a
Speaker 7: good communicator, you know, spreading good information and whatever, or
Speaker 7: straight out line you know, like being a politician in line.
Speaker 7: So you're good at the sphere, but you're using it
Speaker 7: to in a bullshit manner, right. I wouldn't say that's
Speaker 7: the only way of seeing the kleithos, but it's like
Speaker 7: an interesting way. But not that said about this system,
Speaker 7: like what the fuck I'm gonna get, you know, know,
Speaker 7: all this stuff like this, it's very weird.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, that is an example of the popular LHP.
Speaker 6: I don't want to use that term too lightly or designatedly.
Speaker 6: So it's a popular way of people seeing the sphere
Speaker 6: out as good powers and the cleip boat as bad powers,
Speaker 6: and you can use either of them agentically to do
Speaker 6: your will. That I think is I think that's a
Speaker 6: huge error. I think that is a tremendous miscalculation and
Speaker 6: also not true to what the Jewish mystics were trying
Speaker 6: to communicate to us, sticks especially the rabbi who wrote
Speaker 6: the Sefarkhana the Book of Horns, who was masacred along
Speaker 6: with his congregation and the Cossack raids in the seventeen
Speaker 6: hundreds in Poland, a horrific way to die for someone
Speaker 6: who wrote the book on the Klei boat. They definitely
Speaker 6: have periods where even in the Zohar, I think it's
Speaker 6: arguable that they see them as entities of some sort,
Speaker 6: but the essential you know, I prefer David Heinsmith's understanding
Speaker 6: of them, of course, and I prefer the traditional Jewish
Speaker 6: view of seeing them as husks around what is good,
Speaker 6: which are the spheres the aspects of God. And in
Speaker 6: this way, it's very deceptive for people to look at
Speaker 6: the Tree of life as the tree of life model
Speaker 6: the inter secting rings the rings going out from the
Speaker 6: center like imagine the symbol of the sun or the monad,
Speaker 6: and then with circles between the point and the outer ring.
Speaker 6: That's an older view of the tree of life that
Speaker 6: I think is generally much more helpful for understanding Cobbla
Speaker 6: most of the time. And so with the Tree of
Speaker 6: Life in the you know, the quote unquote cure Her diagram.
Speaker 6: Though cure Her didn't create that diagram, he just you
Speaker 6: know printed it. Can you imagine a Jesuit actually creating
Speaker 6: a diagram or the tree of life not gonna happen,
Speaker 6: Not gonna happen. You see the cleipboat as this inverse
Speaker 6: tree sometimes, and that is again I think, very deceptive.
Speaker 6: Seeing it more as that which prevents you from accessing
Speaker 6: the sphere I think is the best way to understand it,
Speaker 6: certainly the most useful in my opinion. So del Wo's
Speaker 6: point of seeing, Oh, there's the hode splendor sphere, and
Speaker 6: then there's the kleipoat of the Hode, and I can
Speaker 6: use either of them, I think, is to fail to
Speaker 6: get the point of the clipboat, which is that if
Speaker 6: you're caught in the lying, you're not able to access
Speaker 6: the truth. If you're lying, it's because you can't access truth.
Speaker 6: It's because you didn't transmute that klipo, that husk, that
Speaker 6: shell around the thing that it is of actual value,
Speaker 6: and so you weren't able to attain that, and that's
Speaker 6: your spiritual failing or sin as some people might look
Speaker 6: at it. Just like here's another example of you're walking
Speaker 6: down the street because these things have to come into
Speaker 6: play in your life otherwise what's if you can't understand
Speaker 6: them in your daily life? What's the point? How is
Speaker 6: that helpful? It's just metaphysical speculation. At that point, it
Speaker 6: becomes extremely masturbatory very fast, which a lot of people
Speaker 6: also liken more power to them. They can do that.
Speaker 6: But you say, see a person begging for change, right,
Speaker 6: and you reach in your pocket and you feel, oh,
Speaker 6: there's just a bill there, there's no there's no loonies
Speaker 6: or tunnies, no dollars or two dollars coins, just a
Speaker 6: five or twenty, and you feel this resistance. Well, what
Speaker 6: is that? That is the shell around generosity preventing you
Speaker 6: from exercising loving kindness and selflessness. And so that you're
Speaker 6: confronting you have to wrestle and transmute that clipout right there,
Speaker 6: and then to penetrate it, throw it away as a
Speaker 6: husk and reach in and feel that charity and just
Speaker 6: give what you intended to do, which was to give
Speaker 6: some money to the beggar on the street.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 6: And I've been through this moment, I'm sure everyone has.
Speaker 6: You know, do you pull your hand back out empty
Speaker 6: or do you let go transmute that and give them
Speaker 6: something because you were planning on it because you wanted to.
Speaker 6: There's a there's a there's a theorgy of the cliff
Speaker 6: Off right there.
Speaker 10: That that brings up another question I'd like to ask you.
Speaker 10: So basically, the way you compare the cliffwth to the
Speaker 10: Tree of Life. If someone decides to work through the
Speaker 10: Tree of life, you have to work through the cliff Off.
Speaker 10: It goes without saying or is.
Speaker 11: Right.
Speaker 6: So that comes into the discussion of how do you
Speaker 6: work with the Cliffhoth? Right, they're there anyway, Working with
Speaker 6: the Sephara is how you work with the cliphoth people
Speaker 6: who make it so that you have to confront the
Speaker 6: cliphote and then actualize them or raify them in some way.
Speaker 6: That's where I think you start to dig your grave.
Speaker 2: I agree with that actually one hundred percent, I think,
Speaker 2: and I agree with what you're The premise of what
Speaker 2: you're asking Judith is that, Yeah, that's how I see
Speaker 2: the tree too. It's like it's nondual. The Tree of
Speaker 2: Life and the Tree of Death are there. You confront
Speaker 2: the klipas. I have a different, slightly different way of
Speaker 2: understanding them. And I was going to actually ask a
Speaker 2: freight or RC if he considered them, if he considered
Speaker 2: that you can clarify klipas or that perhaps in the
Speaker 2: correct in the sort of way, that they also are
Speaker 2: luminous or transparent. DCS has talked a little bit about
Speaker 2: this in relation to like nondualism or qualified non dualism,
Speaker 2: and how the kleepas can be perceived as luminous in
Speaker 2: and of themselves like a glass, a glass sheath, excuse me,
Speaker 2: that is, like the vessel that contains the spark of luminosity.
Speaker 2: So perhaps there's even no difference between the kleipa and
Speaker 2: the suffer themselves. That's just a one idea, but i'll
Speaker 2: i'll for freight or address.
Speaker 6: I think that's that. I mean, I think what you've
Speaker 6: just said shows the depth of contemplation and meditation and
Speaker 6: work you've done with this, and that I think you.
Speaker 6: I don't know if that's true or not, of course, right,
Speaker 6: but I think David him Smith would like what you're saying,
Speaker 6: and I certainly think that it does show some some
Speaker 6: real experience with them. So I would agree at face
Speaker 6: value with that assessment for sure.
Speaker 2: Thank you. I appreciate that. I consider myself a quite
Speaker 2: good speculative cabalist. I don't use kabala for magic, just
Speaker 2: for the record, and I but I do. I do
Speaker 2: consider myself quite good and DCS also considers me pretty
Speaker 2: good too, just to show myself out. But yeah, thank
Speaker 2: you so much for d Arci. I appreciate that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh, Judia, did you have anything else? Sorry? I
Speaker 4: wasn't sure if you were done.
Speaker 8: I was gonna ask a question.
Speaker 10: But it's more like how the Tree of Life is
Speaker 10: presented to the masses. Basically, it's presented without the concept
Speaker 10: or without even any knowledge of the proof of And
Speaker 10: in your opinion, is that an injustice for those who
Speaker 10: would like to work with the tree of life.
Speaker 6: That's actually a really good question. That's a really good question.
Speaker 6: That's something uh. I mean, maybe Jina and I can
Speaker 6: debate that a bit. There's definitely pros and cons to it.
Speaker 6: I mean, the fact is you are going to you
Speaker 6: have You can't work with a sphere without dealing with
Speaker 6: the shell around right how you know, the sphere is
Speaker 6: the pearl or the oyster if you like your oysters,
Speaker 6: or the grain, and the clip out is that which
Speaker 6: is around it. So it's out of necessity that you
Speaker 6: have to encounter the clipo, why would you go through
Speaker 6: the trouble of reifying it anymore or vibrating its name,
Speaker 6: or drawing or focusing on sigils of it. I mean,
Speaker 6: I think Kenneth Grant's Side of Eden is fun, but
Speaker 6: I found it of limited value in its insights. Many
Speaker 6: of those insights I think are wonderful. That's why the
Speaker 6: subtitle of my book as it stands is you know
Speaker 6: the Tunnels of Set or seven Deadly Sins in the
Speaker 6: Tunnels of Set in Kenneth right. It's a long title anyway,
Speaker 6: but yeah, those ideas definitely helped me find my way
Speaker 6: to Saint John of the Cross as a method of
Speaker 6: theorgy and working with them. And yeah, did I in
Speaker 6: the early days go a bit too far and maybe
Speaker 6: try some direct contact with these forces? Yeah, and it
Speaker 6: definitely And it directly almost led to my very young death.
Speaker 6: And it took the intervention of the Adepts around me
Speaker 6: at the Temple down in LA to save my life
Speaker 6: from that error. So that's something I haven't talked about
Speaker 6: in the past, but I'm gonna be talking about it now.
Speaker 6: Leading up to this workshop and the release of my
Speaker 6: second edition.
Speaker 4: That was awesome. You know, just a question. You know,
Speaker 4: I really don't know much about this topic. I mean,
Speaker 4: I know enough, but I was just wondering, like if
Speaker 4: if you use the hamiticabala and like you kind of
Speaker 4: looked at the negative aspects of all the stuff that
Speaker 4: was associated even maybe with planetary and the astrological stuff,
Speaker 4: do you think that maybe you'd somehow be kind of
Speaker 4: almost doing close to the same thing, but just not
Speaker 4: using those I guess name associated with those spears and
Speaker 4: husks as you call them.
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, that would be the argument going to what
Speaker 6: the loon up there said, what's your name of the loon?
Speaker 6: What's the loon's name? Did? Should I call you the loon?
Speaker 2: You could call me the lun or Judy, that's fine,
Speaker 2: Jude Judy.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well the loon is. I'm a Canadian, so we
Speaker 6: love our loans. It's one of our special an we
Speaker 6: call our dollar at we call our dollar loonies because
Speaker 6: of how much the loon is held in high esteem
Speaker 6: by us and what a cool animal as well. Ah,
Speaker 6: but I think Jin would would agree. That's one of
Speaker 6: the major arguments for a con Well, if if you
Speaker 6: externalize and treat these cliffhothic names as beings. Doesn't that
Speaker 6: allow us to employ mechanisms such as those found and
Speaker 6: that originate in the Rabbit rabbinic practices and created the
Speaker 6: solemonic tradition for us to pull them into our triangle
Speaker 6: of manifestation and and purify and control them through those
Speaker 6: external ritual practices. I mean, I think that's a strong
Speaker 6: argument for doing that. I'm not convinced that it's safe
Speaker 6: or necessary. It seems sort of to me, it seems unnecessary.
Speaker 6: There's a question with one of my friends mentioned the
Speaker 6: chat on screen. Yeah, I had a couple este Steve Mitchell,
Speaker 6: my buddy Steve Mitchell. He'll be at the workshop in
Speaker 6: there in June. I believe he's a great Golden down
Speaker 6: adept in a huge order. He says, what do I
Speaker 6: consider the key klopathic texts? Well, the original I think
Speaker 6: is the Zohar, but the key text is undebatable. It
Speaker 6: is the Book of Horns, the Cepher Kanaiem.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I had that and another one start. Actually, Oh,
Speaker 4: I was going to go back to him, so I
Speaker 4: thank you for bringing that up. Dan, I have anything else, Matt,
Speaker 4: Were you trying to say.
Speaker 7: Something exactly how I wanted to break something up. Actually,
Speaker 7: we've been chatting on the Gray Lodge, I think a
Speaker 7: couple of weeks ago actually since Solo and I. I
Speaker 7: was trying to find here, but I couldn't but a
Speaker 7: shout out to Solar the other to host we have.
Speaker 7: But he brings it up in a like named it.
Speaker 7: Let's say he tried naming it this kind of idea
Speaker 7: where you would have the clefod I say, the things
Speaker 7: that is talking about, and then whatever other name you
Speaker 7: want to give to this other concept. But usually people
Speaker 7: will also call it like gleefop whatever, which is kind
Speaker 7: of like emptying a symbol. Right, I can give an example. Uh, well,
Speaker 7: anytime you speak to an AI, right, you're going to
Speaker 7: speak something to the AIDA is just going to generate
Speaker 7: some text based on mathematics, and you are the one
Speaker 7: putting some kind of emotional backdrop, some meaning to that
Speaker 7: basically empty text. Right, the idea is just giving you
Speaker 7: some gibberish and you're trying to make sense of it.
Speaker 7: Or when you have some kind of let's say you
Speaker 7: have a cartoon, a famous cartoon, and then for whatever
Speaker 7: reason political or social reasons, that cartoon now means something else.
Speaker 7: Now again the symbol is emptied. You know, you had
Speaker 7: I don't know, something that was supposed to bring happiness
Speaker 7: or whatever you know in the cartoon, and now people
Speaker 7: are just mad about it. So again the symbol is
Speaker 7: emptied out of its meaning. And what do I think
Speaker 7: that's an interesting and interesting concept and maybe not necessarily
Speaker 7: necessarily related to the cluefuss, but people might conflate them.
Speaker 7: Is that you can that is something that you can
Speaker 7: use practically. What do you mean by that? Let's say
Speaker 7: you have I mean you can work with the tree
Speaker 7: of life to try and rectify things right insteade of
Speaker 7: you as one. And sure, that's pretty good. Sometimes though,
Speaker 7: it feels as if let's say you have something you're
Speaker 7: want to rectify in yourself, like a symbol or a
Speaker 7: situation or whatever, and the more that you try to
Speaker 7: go against it, the more that it becomes powerful. It's
Speaker 7: like a kind of feeding it because you're trying to
Speaker 7: go against it, right, It's like this enemy, they're trying
Speaker 7: to go against it. But h and I picked this
Speaker 7: by with personal experience. Once you understand that, you can
Speaker 7: also just empty the thing of meaning and see, okay,
Speaker 7: maybe that's actually not, you know, not even as great.
Speaker 7: You know, it's kind of like you were seeing this
Speaker 7: shadow a big monster, but then you look at it
Speaker 7: and it's like, oh, actually, it's like just just something
Speaker 7: that doesn't even make sense. You can again kind of
Speaker 7: ground yourself and kind of make that lose lose power.
Speaker 7: So I need to understand from prodder if. First of all,
Speaker 7: it if it makes sense that idea of like not
Speaker 7: necessarily being the cleeful but concept that people may make
Speaker 7: conflict And yeah, if again, since it's always always also
Speaker 7: cool to understand practically how we can use things. How
Speaker 7: from your perspective, the understanding that cleifods can be something
Speaker 7: practic done in practice, Like you gave the example, you know,
Speaker 7: you're something gives you, compels you to do something, and
Speaker 7: then you either get blocked by or you go forward.
Speaker 7: You know, like what maybe are other ways of going
Speaker 7: about just being aware and work around them maybe if
Speaker 7: not with them.
Speaker 2: Well, I just want to say that I'm so funny
Speaker 2: that you brought that up, Matt, because I was honestly
Speaker 2: thinking of the exact Oh sorry, Matt, I think is Mike. Sorry, Matt,
Speaker 2: I didn't mean to interrupt you. I think your mic
Speaker 2: cut out.
Speaker 4: I think it was good.
Speaker 2: Okay, anyways, uh, so, I know it was so funny
Speaker 2: that he brought that up because I was just thinking
Speaker 2: of solar and that exact example. Like he said that
Speaker 2: we should yetify kleepa with so we should say, like
Speaker 2: the kleiepa with a K. I think that's what it
Speaker 2: was when we're talking about what Matt is talking about.
Speaker 2: But we should hermesticize the kleepas with a que when
Speaker 2: we're talking about the actual tree itself, the structural tree.
Speaker 2: So I think that's a great sort of like if
Speaker 2: you want to distinguish it in that way, Like klipas
Speaker 2: can just be husks, right, Like they can just be
Speaker 2: perceptual ideas that we have that are actually wrong. They
Speaker 2: don't actually have to be anything quote unquote evil or
Speaker 2: even things that obscure our view. And there's even an
Speaker 2: idea in non Lorianic kabbala of the nogalla or the
Speaker 2: kind of illuminating husk around certain suffra. So I mean
Speaker 2: it's it's it's very view dependent and like I think
Speaker 2: freder rc spoke on this before that it is like
Speaker 2: it there is like a context to which that you
Speaker 2: can speak about it that makes will make sense to
Speaker 2: the way like your worldview frames the like views the tree.
Speaker 2: But then there's like different ways to understand it. Like
Speaker 2: Freder was talking about Saint John of the Cross and
Speaker 2: the sense aggregation, Well, we have the exact same idea
Speaker 2: in Buddhism, like the five sense aggregates and the five
Speaker 2: elements and the sort of five poisons of the mind.
Speaker 2: So all of those things actually are also klip as.
Speaker 2: We would call them Skanda's dcs, thinks and I but
Speaker 2: I said this before I even knew JCS, So I
Speaker 2: just want to for the record, but I always said
Speaker 2: skandas are kleipas because the etymology is very similar. It
Speaker 2: means aggregation. It can also mean husk or shell, and
Speaker 2: so you in Buddhism, what we want to do is
Speaker 2: rectify those things in our mind, because that's really where
Speaker 2: klipas are initially, at least they might exist out externally
Speaker 2: like as goetics or as things. I don't know. I
Speaker 2: don't know but about that stuff, but I agree that
Speaker 2: you shouldn't worship. I don't worship the angels, and I
Speaker 2: definitely don't worship the Gotesha. But I don't consider them different. Really,
Speaker 2: I just think it's one like, it's just it's just
Speaker 2: the hosts, it's how we understand them. And so I
Speaker 2: just maneuver the tree in that way without like assigning
Speaker 2: it to be have gross spiritual forces, I would say.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I great, great points everybody.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't think I've much ever heard of anyone
Speaker 6: worshiping angels or kleipoat. But although I'm sure some of
Speaker 6: the guys who've written the very popular Cliff Off books,
Speaker 6: many of which I think it's easy to consider dark fluff,
Speaker 6: as we say, but some of which have some real
Speaker 6: serious scholarship and experience behind them. There's a bit of
Speaker 6: both out there, that's for sure. Yeah, I would definitely
Speaker 6: never worship, recommend people worshiping just part of the worship,
Speaker 6: just part when you can worship. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well yeah, yeah,
Speaker 6: you means as demons in the sense of the later
Speaker 6: term guetia, as is used because guetia means sorcery. It means,
Speaker 6: I mean, working working with any spirit essentially is guetia,
Speaker 6: including working with angels, if we go by the popular definition.
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm sorry, I'm using the contemporary left hand.
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, I get it. Where we're oh, yeah.
Speaker 2: They're talking about like they're assigning directly one to one
Speaker 2: like Lilith and the Cleapa of your sead. They're saying
Speaker 2: that that is identical, and I would say that, no,
Speaker 2: it's conceptual. That's how I would approach it. That's all. Sorry,
Speaker 2: so absolutely semantic choice. I apologize for sure.
Speaker 6: No, I get it. And that's the biggest danger of
Speaker 6: viewing this tree of evil and the inverse tree as
Speaker 6: a separate thing to the Tree of life, right, because
Speaker 6: you're losing your it's going beyond dualism at that point,
Speaker 6: you're going into full on yeah, reified emanationism and thinking
Speaker 6: that that you have to like progress from one step
Speaker 6: to the next to experience the fullness, or that you
Speaker 6: have to go to a certain dark place to experience
Speaker 6: a certain dark thing. It's not really true. We can
Speaker 6: experience anything anywhere all the time in my in my experience,
Speaker 6: and that's my theoretical understanding as well.
Speaker 4: Thank you.
Speaker 6: Maybe I can, oh see, I made some notes of
Speaker 6: examples of ways I look at it in my workshop
Speaker 6: and my book, so I'll see if I can pull
Speaker 6: up some of those as exemplars as we continue to
Speaker 6: go along.
Speaker 4: Sure. Did anybody have any other questions?
Speaker 8: I did have a quick question.
Speaker 10: As you compare it to being the dark you mentioned
Speaker 10: earlier about people mistaking it for the left hand path.
Speaker 8: Could you expand on that a little bit.
Speaker 6: Well, I think people who are oh okay, so yeah,
Speaker 6: there's this the idea of this left hand path and
Speaker 6: right hand path thing that's been imported to the West
Speaker 6: in the same district way that the West has often
Speaker 6: tried to export Western constructions into Eastern thought, with very
Speaker 6: little success or value and often destructive results to the
Speaker 6: original ideas right like, for example, karma. You know, what
Speaker 6: we've done with karmen in the West is completely obliterated
Speaker 6: the original meanings, whether you take it as a social
Speaker 6: structure imposed by Brahmins or in the spiritual sense seen
Speaker 6: in the context of dharma. Western views of that have
Speaker 6: led to all kinds of wacky spiritual ideas, and I
Speaker 6: think we all know what those are, so it doesn't
Speaker 6: need to be drawn out. But just so, when we
Speaker 6: import these right hand why do people call people like
Speaker 6: me right hand path? It's not a self def it's
Speaker 6: not a term we use. And so the same people
Speaker 6: that will label us right hand path or left hand
Speaker 6: path are the same people who are usually whining about
Speaker 6: cultural appropriation. It's like, so you're complaining about cultural appropriation,
Speaker 6: but you're imposing a term on me that I reject
Speaker 6: and saying it doesn't matter if I reject it, it's
Speaker 6: still true. Well, how does that work both ways? Would
Speaker 6: you like it if we started labeling you terms that
Speaker 6: you don't like and find repugnant? Would that elucidate more
Speaker 6: about the nature of you? If we start imposing terms
Speaker 6: on you that don't have any place in your spiritual world,
Speaker 6: it's just not very helpful. And So in the path
Speaker 6: that I've followed my whole life, which has got elements
Speaker 6: of Kabbala in it, there's no right hand left hand path.
Speaker 6: There's just the middle path of consciousness. The middle pillar
Speaker 6: is the pillar of consciousness created by the tension and
Speaker 6: polarity of jachinim Boaz, And that's the path right does
Speaker 6: it sometimes wind to and fro absolutely, But that's not
Speaker 6: how consciousness raises upward on the tree of life. That's
Speaker 6: why in grade structures like the Golden Dawn, our grade
Speaker 6: structure only goes straight up the tree. We don't actually
Speaker 6: have any grades on the right or left hand pillar.
Speaker 6: That's an illusion, and that's something that you find out
Speaker 6: only after getting to a certain point. So yes, I
Speaker 6: did just spoil that for a lot of people. But
Speaker 6: tough shit, because this idea of going first to get
Speaker 6: sometimes to the right and then sometimes to the left,
Speaker 6: it's just not real. It's just not real, certainly not
Speaker 6: in the Golden Dawn tradition, though it may have been
Speaker 6: rareified in other traditions that were based on the Golden Dawn.
Speaker 6: And that again is not necessarily a bad thing. I
Speaker 6: think it depends how it's dealt with methodologically in the
Speaker 6: system of spiritual progressions. So yeah, left hand path. People
Speaker 6: want to do what they want to do with it,
Speaker 6: and that's fine. You know, they're on their own path,
Speaker 6: which has nothing in common with what people like me
Speaker 6: are doing. So there's really no point comparing them, right,
Speaker 6: You don't compare. You don't compare the strength of an
Speaker 6: Olympic weightlifter to the strength of a downhill skier and
Speaker 6: see which one is a better athlete because the completely
Speaker 6: different sports.
Speaker 2: Well, in defense of the lhpbros, of which I consider
Speaker 2: myself at least a little bit of one.
Speaker 6: Please do defend them, please do.
Speaker 2: I well, I mean, this is the thing is that
Speaker 2: in Tontra because it's Tontra, right, Like Tntra is sorcery,
Speaker 2: like you were talking about go Edia, and like how
Speaker 2: that also means sorcery, Like Tantra is also sorcery, but
Speaker 2: it's a methodological sorcery that also affects your mind, but
Speaker 2: it's also for external and spiritual benefit. So it's it
Speaker 2: just it just resolves the three body problem. But I
Speaker 2: agree that it is a that you should approach the
Speaker 2: tree from the middle path. This is something that Matt's
Speaker 2: heard me say, like probably hundreds of times in the
Speaker 2: last two and a half years since we've been doing
Speaker 2: the Gray Lodge. I always said, like the way that
Speaker 2: at least we're going to do the show is that
Speaker 2: we're going to approach the tree from the middle path.
Speaker 2: But there's also an Tontric idea of the middle path
Speaker 2: as being a positionless position, meaning that you don't get
Speaker 2: caught in extremity. So very similar to what you're saying, Frater,
Speaker 2: but it is a little different because we can still
Speaker 2: draw from the polarities, but it's not the resolution of
Speaker 2: paradox or the result or the sort of balancing of
Speaker 2: tensions is not necessarily found either in extremity. So like
Speaker 2: I personally don't work with angels in the same way
Speaker 2: that I don't work with I'm going to call them
Speaker 2: go atic spirits with the acknowledgment that that is a
Speaker 2: more contemporary idea, but I'm really talking about like the
Speaker 2: spirits of the lesser keys. So I personally don't work
Speaker 2: with any of those spirits because I'm obviously a Tontraic Buddhist,
Speaker 2: so I work with like the cosmology that we use.
Speaker 2: But I so I don't need to resolve like either
Speaker 2: the right hand traumonic more like monastic ascetic ideas with
Speaker 2: the more sorceress ideas, because I also understand that I'm
Speaker 2: using magic, using sorcery to resolve those paradoxes in and
Speaker 2: of themselves, but it's also of my own mind. So
Speaker 2: what I'm saying is is, like I I don't think
Speaker 2: that a lot of those left hand path ideas are
Speaker 2: wrong or bad. I actually think that they're very pragmatic
Speaker 2: and useful at times. I think what happens is is
Speaker 2: that they get twisted and then in popular culture and then
Speaker 2: can sort of get distillated down into a kind of
Speaker 2: I'm a depressed goth edge lord and like as someone
Speaker 2: who was like a depressed goth, like all right, and
Speaker 2: so they they treat it like it's gospel. They treat
Speaker 2: it like it's gospel. It's kind of like the anti
Speaker 2: Christianity for the anti like everything that is good, like
Speaker 2: the anti anti cosmic and like we have talked about
Speaker 2: discussed many times, like Judith and I have this long
Speaker 2: running sort of dialogue about Mott on the show, and
Speaker 2: like I believe in like the balancing of the polarities.
Speaker 2: So like I personally don't see the I don't see
Speaker 2: the point in being like completely I don't reject the body,
Speaker 2: and I don't reject the spirit and I but I'm
Speaker 2: also like trying to resolve those things that tension body
Speaker 2: spirit tension in my own mind. So I'm not trying
Speaker 2: to deny anything or go so far into hedonism either.
Speaker 2: I'm very much like we need to do what is
Speaker 2: like generative and reconciliatory, like in rectifiable, like we go
Speaker 2: to we go to tiffer It, we come back down
Speaker 2: to aisode we you know, resolve the resolve the four
Speaker 2: elements or five elements in contra and then we go
Speaker 2: back up. It's the dialectical relationship between the five and
Speaker 2: the six. I'm obviously using five as not in the
Speaker 2: traditional cabalistic way, but I'm using five as in the
Speaker 2: Buddhist way, which is like primordial consciousness, primordial ground where
Speaker 2: the five elements converge. But but it refers to you,
Speaker 2: so really, so that's what I think it is. I
Speaker 2: think that the left time path can be really generative
Speaker 2: and useful as conceptual ideas. But like with all conceptual
Speaker 2: knowledge that is not like true nosis. You can utilize it,
Speaker 2: but then you have to also, like a husk, like
Speaker 2: a cleep up, you also have to discard it. It's
Speaker 2: not useful to contain the fullness of an identity. Like
Speaker 2: you see this a lot on IG. You'll see people
Speaker 2: be like left hand path anti cosmic. I know, I
Speaker 2: have a lot of them following me, and I like
Speaker 2: some of them, like some of them are like cool people,
Speaker 2: cool mutuals, whatever. But then they'll have pronouns in their bio.
Speaker 2: Then they will have like political ideas in their bio.
Speaker 2: And I'm not saying that that's horrifying or whatever, but
Speaker 2: I'm just saying like, what if you are so edge lord,
Speaker 2: then why are you so stuck on identities? The more
Speaker 2: edge lord thing is to be like, Okay, I'm going
Speaker 2: to let the identities go. I'm not going to like,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to position myself within a klipa, because
Speaker 2: that is what identities and those kinds of names are.
Speaker 2: They're just husks that we use to contain who we
Speaker 2: think we are. I don't know, this is an interesting idea.
Speaker 6: Okay, yeah, I think that's very, very dead on insight.
Speaker 6: To quote one of my favorite Austrians, Christoph Waltz, that's
Speaker 6: a bingo.
Speaker 4: Why does it sound familiar?
Speaker 6: I've put, uh, what's inglorious, bastards, I've put the link
Speaker 6: for people to buy their very own copy of the
Speaker 6: Book of Horns there in the chat. So go spend
Speaker 6: twenty nine books for a beautifully crafted hardcover book like
Speaker 6: most Jewish texts, and support your local rabbis through that purchase. PA,
Speaker 6: And yeah, it's a book that I'm sure as a
Speaker 6: result of me sharing it, the link there and this
Speaker 6: chat will be now featured on many people's live streams
Speaker 6: and many grifters private schools where they they they tell
Speaker 6: you that just by having that book you will either
Speaker 6: be cursed or have mighty power. So yeah, I call
Speaker 6: I'm helping the Satanic panic two point zero wonderful.
Speaker 4: Oh God. By next week you'll be associated with the
Speaker 4: Process church too.
Speaker 6: Dear Lord, Saints preserve us.
Speaker 2: There's nothing wrong with process theology. Just let me say,
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to get you in trouble, Nick, but
Speaker 2: you know what I was getting. I know exactly what
Speaker 2: you're doing.
Speaker 6: Yeah, what's wrong with Paul Tillick?
Speaker 4: There's nothing else I was making inside joke with you.
Speaker 6: Do you have a cardinal electric head? Do you have
Speaker 6: an issue with Alfred North Whitehead?
Speaker 4: No, No, not at all.
Speaker 6: Actually we should talk when I have you on my podcast, Jim,
Speaker 6: we got to talk about process theology. That's something I'm
Speaker 6: highly educated in.
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know that much.
Speaker 4: Actually, I would have you on that if you know,
Speaker 4: I would love to have you on for that. Then
Speaker 4: I didn't know that that was something you were into
Speaker 4: as well.
Speaker 6: Yeah, talking about Paul Tillic. Paul Tillic was a very
Speaker 6: interesting twentieth century theology theologian who brought Alfred North white
Speaker 6: Head's ideas into theological popularity, and it was definitely a
Speaker 6: major when I was in seminary. Paul Tillic. Yeah, T
Speaker 6: I L L I c H. Wonderful theologian. I mean,
Speaker 6: do I think everything he says is the true theology? No,
Speaker 6: that's not the point of theology. But does he have
Speaker 6: some really interesting ideas about God? Absolutely? Absolutely, very appropriate
Speaker 6: especially to his time and place, but very useful in
Speaker 6: a changing world because it takes account of change. I mean,
Speaker 6: people say that the Roman Catholic Church, the Roman Catholic
Speaker 6: Church says that they've never changed and their theology necessitates
Speaker 6: that point of view, even though all evidence points to
Speaker 6: the contrary. So they could they they've they could do
Speaker 6: with a little bit more process theology, which would just
Speaker 6: be them admitting like, yeah, yeah, we do change. But
Speaker 6: they're not allowed to say that because it would contradict
Speaker 6: their own doctrines. So the Catholics are fucked.
Speaker 2: Well, we can we could just say we everybody should
Speaker 2: go read Carl Jaspers on axialism. That would that's actually
Speaker 2: a really good introduction to a process theology as like
Speaker 2: a sort of conceptual thing, because it's really not based
Speaker 2: in Western It's not that it's not Western and it's
Speaker 2: not that there isn't a place for it. It absolutely is,
Speaker 2: as Freighter is saying, But the idea of axualism is
Speaker 2: actually much much older and probably actually converges with our
Speaker 2: idea of Kabbala. And where it even came from, and
Speaker 2: if you like me positive as coming from Persia in
Speaker 2: the second century, I'm not saying it was invented there.
Speaker 2: I'm saying it came out of the second Exile period
Speaker 2: from Babylon, and it was probably something that the Zoroastrians
Speaker 2: were looking at, and the Jews were there, and the
Speaker 2: Manichaeans were there, and the Mandians were there, and everybody's
Speaker 2: looking at this tree which may or may not have
Speaker 2: been a tree, like DCS talks a lot about this,
Speaker 2: like there are Sufi ideas of the tree. I became
Speaker 2: a podcaster because I sort of stumbled upon what I
Speaker 2: think is a version of the tree, which is called
Speaker 2: the Mahavidja grouping, which is a grouping of ten goddesses,
Speaker 2: which Nick and I did three years ago on this show.
Speaker 2: We discussed how you can understand the ten goddesses to
Speaker 2: mean the Sefra and I did an eleven part series
Speaker 2: on et cetera, et cetera. Okay, so yeah, there's many
Speaker 2: I think there's many versions of the tree, is what
Speaker 2: I'm trying to say. And I think that it's there's
Speaker 2: a sort of fundamental nature where you I'm sorry, I
Speaker 2: totally forgot where I was going with that, but yeah,
Speaker 2: I agree with a lot of what you were saying Frater,
Speaker 2: and like there is definitely a kind of convergence of
Speaker 2: ideas and then a sort of splitting of where the
Speaker 2: tree went. So I think that if you're looking at
Speaker 2: it from that perspective, you're seeing like, Okay, there's a
Speaker 2: Arisitilian dialectic of time, space, light and dark. And this
Speaker 2: matches very very well to sort of late stage or Astrianism,
Speaker 2: which is called Jervinism, where they obviously assigned God the
Speaker 2: quality of time, but in the originals or Astrian thinking,
Speaker 2: you're not supposed to assign God any quality, which is
Speaker 2: also interesting from a rabbinical perspective because you're also not
Speaker 2: supposed to assign God an equality. But hesse, that's God's
Speaker 2: really only quality is loving kindness.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah.
Speaker 2: I just thought it was an interesting point, like maybe
Speaker 2: they were playing with this idea of axialism, the four
Speaker 2: quadrants and seeing like, okay, well we can turn and
Speaker 2: like So that obviously parallels yade Vave as well, because
Speaker 2: you get like the king, the Queen, the princess, and
Speaker 2: the prince. So you already have like a sort of
Speaker 2: swastika sort of wheel turning idea. Right, I mean, that's
Speaker 2: really what process theology is in my opinion. It's like
Speaker 2: this axial system where the world tree or the world
Speaker 2: wheel is always turning. We're always in progress, We're always
Speaker 2: sort of in the process of becoming.
Speaker 6: Yeah, so I wonder how much people are getting in
Speaker 6: the in the of what you're saying. Let me this
Speaker 6: might help a very the most simple definition of process
Speaker 6: theology for everyone in the Peanut gallery, thanks for being here.
Speaker 6: It's an honor, to a privilege to be amongst such
Speaker 6: wonderful folks and all of you. But the simplest definition
Speaker 6: would be interpreting God in a way that changes and
Speaker 6: grows with the world. So God that is in process,
Speaker 6: just like the world's in process. And this is Paul
Speaker 6: Tillick's theology that he drew from Alfred North Whitehead's philosophy.
Speaker 6: So we adapted Whitehead's philosophical ideas into theological and so
Speaker 6: they'd be useful for Christians in the twentieth century. And
Speaker 6: someone in the chat actually pointed out the major critique
Speaker 6: of process theology, which is actually really good. Lucy rose Up.
Speaker 6: Thanks for saying that. Well, I don't know if this
Speaker 6: is what they were intending to comment on, but they
Speaker 6: say it's been all cherry picking aka changing as they go.
Speaker 6: That's exactly the critique of process theology. And when you
Speaker 6: study the stuff in theological colleges, they let you know
Speaker 6: all the criticisms of something as you go along. Of course,
Speaker 6: they're not meant to teach you what they think is true.
Speaker 6: They're meant to teach you how to think. That's what
Speaker 6: all schools should be teaching you, of course, and that
Speaker 6: is the criticism. Now, the response to that criticism is like,
Speaker 6: process theology maybe done bad, is cherry picking, right, But
Speaker 6: what it's intended to do is allow you to accept
Speaker 6: and reject those things which allow you to know God
Speaker 6: better as time moves on. So in the past certain
Speaker 6: things were necessary for us to know God better, but
Speaker 6: in the modern day, maybe some of those things don't
Speaker 6: help us know God anymore. And so they can be
Speaker 6: discarded in favor of other ideas or other folki along
Speaker 6: the way. So that's a basic idea of process theology.
Speaker 2: And yeah, sorry, Freighter, that was perfect, Thank you. That
Speaker 2: was a great summation of what I was trying to
Speaker 2: get towards using my of mythopoetic.
Speaker 6: You said very interesting things.
Speaker 2: Okay, well things. I appreciate that.
Speaker 6: I love hearing it. I love hearing it from an
Speaker 6: Eastern practitioner's point of view. It's so interesting because I
Speaker 6: don't know if you recall I grew up in an
Speaker 6: Eastern tradition. I didn't grow up in Christianity at all, right.
Speaker 6: I grew up in a yoga Maharishi family cult environment,
Speaker 6: and that was really wonderful. Yeah, my parents were hardcore
Speaker 6: Maharishi people, and my whole extended that was my whole world.
Speaker 6: I remember first hearing about Christian churches. I remember in
Speaker 6: kindergarten not being allowed to go back to play with
Speaker 6: friends who I met in kindergarten because I at some
Speaker 6: point along the day I asked when we had to
Speaker 6: go win our meditation dictation time was and they looked
Speaker 6: at me like concerned, and I would describe what I
Speaker 6: was talking about how my parents would do the yogic
Speaker 6: flying thing and bounce up and down, you know, during
Speaker 6: their mantras when they were channeling their Kundlini to the
Speaker 6: base of spine, allowing them to shoot up and do
Speaker 6: their levitating. And you know, I'm sure the kindergartener parents
Speaker 6: were horrified, and I didn't go back to their house again.
Speaker 6: And along the way I found out about Christianity and
Speaker 6: was like, what is this new fangled thing all everyone
Speaker 6: does but us?
Speaker 2: Actually, Matt and I know someone who's really into the
Speaker 2: Maharishi stuff. So it's really interesting that you say that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, look, I just try and approach like Cabala.
Speaker 2: I'm using that as like a broad label to refer
Speaker 2: to the klipa as well. But for me, I just
Speaker 2: approach it as Buddhist like as I am. I don't
Speaker 2: try and put my own preconceptions onto it. Now because
Speaker 2: I'm in dialogue with DCS, I have had to sort
Speaker 2: of up my game, like you were talking about, like
Speaker 2: get a little better at the heat brew, get a
Speaker 2: little better at the sort of like way that he
Speaker 2: describes it. Because I'm much more of an experiential like
Speaker 2: Cabala's like, that's how I encountered the tree was through
Speaker 2: experienced sepharotic experience like color and conceptual word. But they
Speaker 2: didn't appear like that to me necessarily. It was much
Speaker 2: more like through the lens of contra. So even how
Speaker 2: I approach the tree is interesting. So it is interesting
Speaker 2: to me that you pick that up. So thank you, Frader,
Speaker 2: I appreciate that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, no problem. Let me give another example from my
Speaker 6: workshop and books so that people can understand my point
Speaker 6: of view. So one of the things that I think
Speaker 6: is important in the context that I'm approaching these things,
Speaker 6: which is through Kenneth Grant's Knight's Side of Eden and
Speaker 6: through the Golden Dawn hermetic kabbola. If you like that
Speaker 6: term for it, I think it's a fine term. I mean,
Speaker 6: I don't know if there's much hermetica about it other
Speaker 6: than the people who were doing that form of Christian
Speaker 6: kabbala happened to be. But that's a debate for another time. Eh. So,
Speaker 6: Like my central thesis is looking at the Kleephoath not
Speaker 6: just as e spooky externals, but as mirrors of your
Speaker 6: own corruption. And when you do that, you of course
Speaker 6: have to realize that we see the sphere out of
Speaker 6: the Tree of Life as macrocosmic and the paths is microcosmic.
Speaker 6: So from a certain point of view, we never experienced
Speaker 6: the sephar at all. We only experience them through the
Speaker 6: paths that we walk, and the only connection between the
Speaker 6: spheres is the paths that we connect to them. And
Speaker 6: so Kenneth Grant makes this point actually really well. It's
Speaker 6: one of the things I really liked about Nightside Veeden
Speaker 6: back in the nineties, and still like it today as
Speaker 6: I've been rereading it from a older and wiser point
Speaker 6: of view. And so Kenneth Grant points out that his
Speaker 6: tunnels of Set, as he calls them, are microcosmic and
Speaker 6: the spheres are acrocosmic, just like we see in the
Speaker 6: Tree of Life. As it's understood in the Golden Dawn
Speaker 6: in the in the nineteenth century and still today, those
Speaker 6: ideas are generally what's taught. So the book treats the
Speaker 6: tunnels of Set as inner realities that connect the evil
Speaker 6: Sephra or the Klipo to each other. So the only
Speaker 6: reason these dark things connect is because we connect them
Speaker 6: with our lives and actions, which is an interesting idea
Speaker 6: to keep in mind, would they even exist without us?
Speaker 6: Probably not. And so when you look at this in
Speaker 6: terms of the seven Deadly sins, I look at sloth,
Speaker 6: which is not laziness, but it's spiritual abandonment when the
Speaker 6: sweetness of the work is gone. And I say in
Speaker 6: the book sloth is the abandonment of spiritual work and
Speaker 6: ritual work at this point, at which Saint Johnathan Cross
Speaker 6: refers to in the dark Knight of the Sentences. And
Speaker 6: so the great work must be pursued past the stage
Speaker 6: of transcendental lust and astral inspirations to the saturnine point
Speaker 6: of aridity. And the real test isn't whether you practice
Speaker 6: when it feels magical, it's whether you keep going when
Speaker 6: it feels dry. These are all quotes from the book,
Speaker 6: which some of which I'll keep in, some of which
Speaker 6: I will rewrite, rework and turn into new and brilliant paragraphs.
Speaker 6: So yeah, I essentially argue that devotion matters more than
Speaker 6: spiritual thrills. Probably won't be a shocker to anyone here.
Speaker 6: And another quote is I say the work becomes true.
Speaker 6: Work becomes true invoking into it the spirit only when
Speaker 6: the goal of pleasure is replaced by the impetus of devotion.
Speaker 6: So one of my main messages is that pleasure is
Speaker 6: not the measure of truth in spiritual work, of course,
Speaker 6: and that's just an example of my approach and the
Speaker 6: I think important differentiation between subjective and object realities. In
Speaker 6: this particular interpretation of the Tree of Evil.
Speaker 11: Close your eyes, look into the darkness, find the blazing.
Speaker 1: Storm, focus on and become the eclipse. Don't feel that
Speaker 1: the show will be doing and guess
Speaker 2: You is Sue