Speaker 1: This is Pod Popular Podcast for the People, The Great
Speaker 1: Love Debate. It's the Great Love Debate, the Great Love Debate.
Speaker 1: It's a Great Love Deba.
Speaker 2: Hi again, everyone's Brian Howie. Welcome to The Great Love Debate,
Speaker 2: the world's number one dating and relations podcast since twenty fifteen.
Speaker 2: I am here in the very fine studios of Pod
Speaker 2: Popular Podcast.
Speaker 1: For the People. I'm at the one uh just outside.
Speaker 2: Of Cleveland Legacy Village where I could I could tell
Speaker 2: you what time of year it is as I record this,
Speaker 2: but I want to keep it ever green and vague,
Speaker 2: so I'll just say that the weather is miserable outside.
Speaker 2: And if you know Cleveland, that's pretty much covers everything
Speaker 2: from October to June.
Speaker 1: So take a guess. You got a pretty good shot
Speaker 1: of hitting it.
Speaker 2: Anyway, I don't have a guest today. Some of you
Speaker 2: like that, some of you don't like that. Some of
Speaker 2: you like, you know, when it's just me. Some of
Speaker 2: you don't like just me. Some of you don't like me,
Speaker 2: which is fine. That actually makes for better banter, you know,
Speaker 2: say LEVI here on the shores of Lake Erie. I
Speaker 2: can handle it, but this one's just kind of personal,
Speaker 2: so I didn't want to have some random author on
Speaker 2: here to be like, wait, why did you do that?
Speaker 2: Because that didn't quite seem relevant and seemed a little
Speaker 2: disingenuous and not fair to them. So an ex ex
Speaker 2: ex girlfriend of mine, I don't know how far back
Speaker 2: you have to go in the girlfriend pantheon to sort.
Speaker 1: Of label how far back, but pretty pretty long ago.
Speaker 1: I'm getting old.
Speaker 2: She was in my twenties, so she's probably a Baker's
Speaker 2: dozen serious girlfriends ago.
Speaker 1: And she reached out to me out of the blue
Speaker 1: the other day.
Speaker 2: She sent me a message, and I had not spoken
Speaker 2: to her in probably a decade, and I hadn't seen
Speaker 2: her in probably twice that But she reached out because
Speaker 2: she wanted to talk about my other podcast, Dead to Me,
Speaker 2: an estrangement podcast, both to tell me that it was
Speaker 2: good and to possibly be on it as a guest.
Speaker 2: And I said, who are you estranged from? And I
Speaker 2: knew she was never close to her dad since birth,
Speaker 2: So I don't really consider that estrangement because the relationship
Speaker 2: never really existed in the first place. If you never
Speaker 2: really had an relationship, I don't think you're estranged from it.
Speaker 2: He was kind of absent, and she said, no, my mom,
Speaker 2: and she began to explain her very complicated and apparently
Speaker 2: at times really angry relationship with her mother, who I
Speaker 2: actually remember knowing pretty well, spending quite a bit of
Speaker 2: time with. They had a nice summerhouse in the Hamptons,
Speaker 2: it was lovely, and I remember liking her mother quite
Speaker 2: a lot. And as she was explaining this relationship between
Speaker 2: her and her mom, I began to thank Jesus, how
Speaker 2: out of touch was I with this girlfriend who I
Speaker 2: lived with and had somewhat of a life with as
Speaker 2: much as you can in your twenties. And I had
Speaker 2: no idea about any of this. So as she's telling me,
Speaker 2: I'm like, did I not care? Did I not ask?
Speaker 2: Did I not pay attention? Did she not feel close
Speaker 2: enough or comfortable enough to even tell me any of this?
Speaker 2: Or did she tell me any of this? And I
Speaker 2: just didn't pay attention to it. And so randomly, while
Speaker 2: she was telling me about her mom and the complicated
Speaker 2: nature of it, I felt the need to apologize to her,
Speaker 2: and I basically said, I think you were the one
Speaker 2: who got the worst of me, at least as a boyfriend,
Speaker 2: And that probably isn't true, I assure you.
Speaker 1: I got way worse.
Speaker 2: In subsequent relationships, you know, not because I was a jerker,
Speaker 2: a cheat, or any of those things, mostly because I
Speaker 2: think I just didn't care or didn't care enough, or
Speaker 2: didn't care enough about them beyond you know, you're my
Speaker 2: pretty girlfriend, and didn't care beyond like this is fun?
Speaker 2: What are you upset about? I didn't care enough to
Speaker 2: know them, to peel back the layers, to ask the questions,
Speaker 2: and looking back and knowing how much I need that
Speaker 2: now from people, from my partners, and knowing how much
Speaker 2: I do that now. Thankfully, I'm constantly curious and trying
Speaker 2: to learn and know and understand the woman I'm dating.
Speaker 2: I just felt like, how much did I miss out
Speaker 2: with these relationships and these mostly really great girls by
Speaker 2: simply being out of touch. So again, as she's relaying this,
Speaker 2: I probably fell back on old habits. As she was
Speaker 2: explaining her situation, I suddenly, you know, consciously or subconsciously
Speaker 2: made it about me and how I felt. So the
Speaker 2: conversation got off track. She will be coming on dead
Speaker 2: to me, so follow that podcast. But it got me
Speaker 2: thinking about this conversation, the one I'm having and want
Speaker 2: to have with you, guys today are our partners and
Speaker 2: have our partners present in past gotten the best of
Speaker 2: you or at least the best at that moment? And
Speaker 2: how important is that in the greater context of making
Speaker 2: a relationship work? And last, so you know, as I've learned,
Speaker 2: when you go to therapy, you go to therapy, They're
Speaker 2: not going.
Speaker 1: To give you answers.
Speaker 2: They're going to try and lead you down a path
Speaker 2: to find those answers. That's what I'm gonna do today.
Speaker 2: I don't think there is an easy answer for this,
Speaker 2: but I do want to explore it a bit from
Speaker 2: a few different angles because it's complicated. You know, a
Speaker 2: little bit of me sort of talking through this out
Speaker 2: loud in real time, but I want you guys to
Speaker 2: kind of do the same thing. But I got to
Speaker 2: take a quick break at a deep breath because I
Speaker 2: don't know where this is going to go. And we
Speaker 2: will be back right after this, and we are back,
Speaker 2: So what is the very best of you? Because obviously
Speaker 2: we're all works in progress and the very best has
Speaker 2: probably hopefully definitely yet to be realized. But if you
Speaker 2: suddenly right here in a moment, you hit the buzzer
Speaker 2: like on that uh, what's that old game show with
Speaker 2: the whammy? I'm probably dating myself a bit here, press
Speaker 2: your luck. Actually, come to think of it, I think
Speaker 2: that old show is back on ABC now, Like every
Speaker 2: old show is hosted by Strayhan or Seacrest or Steve
Speaker 2: Harvey or someone Elizabeth Banks. Somebody just said, Elizabeth Banks,
Speaker 2: it's on anyway. If you hit the button and you
Speaker 2: froze it? What version of you is someone getting? And
Speaker 2: I think all you can really ask for and hope
Speaker 2: for is that it is a better version than it
Speaker 2: was a month ago, or a year ago, or a
Speaker 2: relationship ago.
Speaker 1: But if you were real, I don't know at best self.
Speaker 2: Centered aloof emotionally distant shithead like like twenty six year
Speaker 2: old or thirty four year old Brian Howie. Is the
Speaker 2: shift incremental and that matters? Or can it be seismic?
Speaker 1: Can you just shed the skin and change things?
Speaker 2: And we've had a lot of really important and smart
Speaker 2: voices on the show over the years who talk about
Speaker 2: how how to be better partners and the fundamentals, you know,
Speaker 2: more empathetic, more attentive, is your partner being heard in
Speaker 2: a moment or a situation and awesome that that's all correct,
Speaker 2: and I'm not dismissing any of that. And I've said
Speaker 2: it before that I personally have gotten a million times better,
Speaker 2: like I think in the top, you know, one percent
Speaker 2: time in terms of expressing gratitude and remorse. There are
Speaker 2: a whole lot of thank yous that I'm sorries that
Speaker 2: come out of me these days, and not because anything
Speaker 2: significant has changed behavior wise, like I don't need to
Speaker 2: say these things, and not because I have bushels of them,
Speaker 2: you know, saved up in star because I spent decades
Speaker 2: not using them, but mostly because I feel things better.
Speaker 1: And deeper and more often.
Speaker 2: And I don't think that comes from an increase in empathy,
Speaker 2: you know, on that scale, I think you are who
Speaker 2: you are. I think doing this show has made me
Speaker 2: listen to a lot of voices more and figure out
Speaker 2: what's important. I think the great love to be has mattered,
Speaker 2: and so I have a unique advantage with that.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: But it's not so it's not empathy. I think it's curiosity.
Speaker 2: And you guys know, I love that word and the concept.
Speaker 2: To me, everything from the from the first date till
Speaker 2: to death to us part is rooted in curiosity. The
Speaker 2: desire to learn and share and grow and explore.
Speaker 1: With another person.
Speaker 2: But I think curiosity in this case we're talking about
Speaker 2: here being the best version of yourself with your partner.
Speaker 2: I think it comes from learning them and understanding them,
Speaker 2: the curiosity, the questions why do they feel this way?
Speaker 2: Why aren't I seeing what matters to them? What are
Speaker 2: their past and present triggers and traumas, And how does
Speaker 2: my behavior or lack thereof, or behaviors or communication or
Speaker 2: lack thereof tapp into those triggers and traumas. So I
Speaker 2: grant you, none of this is first date shit where
Speaker 2: you're trying to negotiate the nacho toppings, so you don't
Speaker 2: want to bring all that up then, But all of
Speaker 2: it matters. I think I told a story once twice
Speaker 2: on this podcast. I've done a lot of these podcasts.
Speaker 2: I don't know what I've told about. How I was
Speaker 2: dating a girl for six months once and then I
Speaker 2: suddenly mispronounced her last name, just didn't know it. So
Speaker 2: she had this unusual Israeli I think it was Israeli name,
Speaker 2: and I never heard her say it out loud before,
Speaker 2: and I had never said it out loud before and
Speaker 2: one night we're at a restaurant where she made the
Speaker 2: reservation and the made her d asked and I boldly
Speaker 2: blurted it out incorrectly, and she freaked the fuck out,
Speaker 2: fucking freaked.
Speaker 1: You don't even know my name, And she wasn't quite right.
Speaker 1: I knew her name. I just didn't know how to
Speaker 1: pronounce her name.
Speaker 2: But she was right on the fact that I never
Speaker 2: asked because I didn't care. She was super hot and
Speaker 2: we were having fun, so who cares about her origin
Speaker 2: or her family or her ethnic roots, right, it was exotic,
Speaker 2: And that was my mistake, not the mispronunciation, because I
Speaker 2: could give you the name and the spelling, so you
Speaker 2: guys could be like, oh, I understand screwing that up.
Speaker 2: That's weird, But to be honest, like, I still don't
Speaker 2: know it, so I don't even want to say it
Speaker 2: now in case she's listening, and I'll be like, he
Speaker 2: fucker still doesn't know my name anyway. But that's my point,
Speaker 2: and that was her point. Something as simple as that
Speaker 2: totally wrecked the relationship because I was just doing enough
Speaker 2: to get by. I didn't know because I didn't want
Speaker 2: to know, or I didn't care. To know it didn't
Speaker 2: matter exotic name, she had exotic eyes, cared about the
Speaker 2: exotic eyes, which is and was a terrible job by me,
Speaker 2: and as you can see, obviously not the best version
Speaker 2: of me or anyone. I wouldn't do that now, somewhat
Speaker 2: of a lesson learned, But I'm sure I do a
Speaker 2: dozen other things that I need to be better on.
Speaker 2: We all do, so yeah, I mean, if I'm looking
Speaker 2: back on the one who called me, we can forgive
Speaker 2: a whole lot of behaviors in our twenties because of
Speaker 2: the of the blur of the buzz or whatever. So
Speaker 2: if you're listening to me and you're twenty three, you're
Speaker 2: off the hook on a lot of shit. But you
Speaker 2: will have to get better, and you will have to
Speaker 2: turn a bit of a corner in your thirties so
Speaker 2: that by the time we turned that corner into real
Speaker 2: adulthood and you can decide for yourself whenever that starts.
Speaker 2: We really shouldn't have any more excuses. We should care
Speaker 2: enough and be curious enough about them to do better
Speaker 2: and be better for them and for the relationship. And
Speaker 2: I've received calls like that from people I've dated ex girlfriends,
Speaker 2: on the flip side, meaning they called me and said
Speaker 2: I know I was difficult to date, or hey, I
Speaker 2: know you tried. I was just a mess at the time,
Speaker 2: and that call used to make me feel better because
Speaker 2: I felt like it let me off the hook. I
Speaker 2: was like, Aha, I knew it wasn't me.
Speaker 1: She was just stressed out at work. I was wonderful.
Speaker 2: But to be honest, now that I kind of know,
Speaker 2: it probably wasn't true. Not that they, you know, were
Speaker 2: a mess or shouldn't have made that call, but the
Speaker 2: way I played a part in it, the best version
Speaker 2: of me probably could have done more to create a
Speaker 2: better version of her. So it's not my job or
Speaker 2: your job, you know, to fix anyone, not completely. But
Speaker 2: it was my job as a boyfriend and as a
Speaker 2: partner and as a man to create an environment where
Speaker 2: some degree of healing can at least start to take place,
Speaker 2: or they at least feel safe enough and be vulnerable
Speaker 2: enough to say, I'm struggling here. Can we work through
Speaker 2: this together? Can you help me? Can we talk? And
Speaker 2: if they, you know, weren't feeling that they could say
Speaker 2: that or were in a place to say that, how
Speaker 2: much of that was because I did not create an
Speaker 2: environment where they could. So, you know, while it's probably
Speaker 2: too late for the past relationships, I'm not saying you
Speaker 2: should pick up the phone and call everybody ever dated. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, you know you don't need to fire off
Speaker 2: a text or do any of those things like they're
Speaker 2: in the rear view mirror most of the time for
Speaker 2: a reason. This is about the relationship you are in
Speaker 2: now or the one you want to be in. Are
Speaker 2: you in it or going into it with a version
Speaker 2: of yourself that is the very best it can be,
Speaker 2: or are we still falling back on old habits and
Speaker 2: patterns and behaviors. I don't I don't want this to
Speaker 2: sound all dating coachy because that is not what I
Speaker 2: want to do and it drives me nuts.
Speaker 1: And somebody's like, oh, you're a dating coach. No, I
Speaker 1: am not, And I don't want to get to woo
Speaker 1: woo therapy.
Speaker 2: A lot of this is coming from my own therapy,
Speaker 2: and I'm kind of relaying things questions that have been
Speaker 2: raised in my sessions to you guys to save you
Speaker 2: three hundred dollars, But because that's not what I do here,
Speaker 2: I'm not I'm not trying.
Speaker 1: To be your guru.
Speaker 2: We're all in this together, the same boat, the same
Speaker 2: level of relationship competence or incompetence, we're all But I
Speaker 2: think this is a valuable exercise to ask yourself these questions,
Speaker 2: because I do that, to be curious about yourself, your mindset,
Speaker 2: your behavior.
Speaker 1: What are you doing? Can it be better?
Speaker 2: And how close can you get to the best of
Speaker 2: you so you can get the best of them, get
Speaker 2: a much better shot of getting the best of them
Speaker 2: if they're getting somewhat close to the best of you.
Speaker 2: And a lot of these thoughts in my own head
Speaker 2: are rooted in regret. And I used to say all
Speaker 2: the time proudly, like I have no regrets because I
Speaker 2: looked at what the outcome was for me. Of course
Speaker 2: I have no regrets if the outcome was fine for me,
Speaker 2: But what kind of trail of wreckage did I leave behind?
Speaker 2: I bet those people have regrets. I bet those girlfriends
Speaker 2: have regrets. I don't think they regret like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: I think I wish I never met him or we
Speaker 2: never dated. I think they regret like I wish things
Speaker 2: things were better, And so I bet they think I
Speaker 2: should have regrets and regrets aren't necessarily a bad thing.
Speaker 2: That tends to be a bad word, you know, because
Speaker 2: you're taking a moment or you're taking a temperature or
Speaker 2: situation and thinking what could I do differently or better?
Speaker 2: But you know, if you look at it that way,
Speaker 2: not to change the outcome, but you look at it like,
Speaker 2: what were the nuances and what were the decisions, and
Speaker 2: what were the conversations, and what was my mindset to think?
Speaker 2: How can I change the possibilities moving better? Because you
Speaker 2: should learn from regret. How do I improve the chance
Speaker 2: of things working out? The odds, the percentages. Does it
Speaker 2: have a better chance of working out and making us
Speaker 2: happy if we can just do better and be better
Speaker 2: and try and get as close as you can to
Speaker 2: the best version of you, because that's what they want
Speaker 2: and I think you want it too. So I hope
Speaker 2: that made some sense.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Check the aforementioned Dead to Me podcast on all the platforms.
Speaker 2: It's good, and the response to it is just it's
Speaker 2: blown me away. It is already in the top ten
Speaker 2: percent of all podcasts in the world, and a lot
Speaker 2: of that is because a lot of you guys.
Speaker 1: Have been checking it out.
Speaker 2: So shoot me an email about this podcast and we're
Speaker 2: talking about today. Great Lovedebate at gmail dot com. Questions, comments, thoughts.
Speaker 2: I promise the next episode we need to laugh a
Speaker 2: little bit more on this podcast. I feel like it's
Speaker 2: got a lot too a little bit too serious in
Speaker 2: the last few months. Maybe that's the bad weather in Cleveland.
Speaker 2: So we're gonna flip it to the sunny side of
Speaker 2: dating shortly. I promise please like, share, follow, and review
Speaker 2: this podcast and dead to meet your reviews. Still after
Speaker 2: ten years of this podcast mean a lot in the
Speaker 2: podcasting ecosystem because, as always at the Great Love Debate,
Speaker 2: we never stopped making love.
Speaker 1: See you next time the Great Love Debate. It's the
Speaker 1: Great Love.
Speaker 2: The Green love to be. It's the Green Love to be.