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Speaker 1: Events and ticket prices and you know, we actually we

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kind of mentioned that we didn't get into this part

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of it when we were talking to Charles about WWE

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and uh, you know how expensive it is with all

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the streaming services and everything, but also ticket price is

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very expensive. And of course when you buy tickets to

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go to a WW event, you're going to be buying

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them through you know, Live Nation slash Ticketmaster. There is

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some news now we've talked a lot about over the

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past couple of years on the show about tickets and

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ticket prices and and how you know, the monopoly that

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Live Nation has on ticket prices and how expensive it

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is getting has become uh to go see live shows.

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Digital Music News has a story up. Major law firms

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seek class certification in Live Nation Ticketmaster suit. Uh say,

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the companies used their decade plus monopoly to raise prices,

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and of course that is nothing new. Everybody in the

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industry knows that that goes on. It's very very difficult

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to compete with Live Nation slash Ticketmaster. You know, it's

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the same company. The two names are interchangeable, and when

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whenever anyone has tried, they haven't gotten very far. I

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still remember Jesus goes back a long time now. But

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remember when Pearl Jam tried it, yep, and they started

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working with I don't even remember the name of the

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company they were working with, but they started working with

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a different company I cannot remember.

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Speaker 2: I can't remember either, but you know, and they.

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Speaker 1: Went and they testified before Congress. A couple of the

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members testified before Congress about the matter. But the issue

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that they ran into was not only they tried to

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use a different ticketing service. Not only though does part

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of why Live Nation is able to maintain their stranglehold

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on all of this is because they don't just control

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the ticketing process, but they also control a lot of

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a lot of these buildings. So if you say, and

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by the way, this was pre merger, but if you

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are you know, even a band as popular as Pearl

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Jam at that time, you know this was back in

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the nineties when this happened. If you decide, you know,

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you're gonna flip the bird ticketmaster and say we're gonna

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do this without you, you've still got the problem of

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they not only control the ticketing process, they control the buildings.

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They have exclusive relationships with these promoters, or even if

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they don't have exclusive relationships on paper. You know, if

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you're a promoter, you do not want to do something

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that's going to anger this organization, in this case Ticketmaster,

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that you depend on, that you have to work with,

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by suddenly you're putting on shows working with this other company.

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So Pearl Jam ended up. They had to finally give up,

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They had to give up on the whole thing because

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and just go back to working with Ticketmaster because they

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were running into a problem. Not only was it you know,

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they're using this this small sort of upstart company to

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sell their tickets. But there's venue, there's all these venues

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they suddenly can't play yep, because Ticketmaster controls the venues.

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So it's very difficult to break this monopoly and to

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break through. So here's what's happening now. This is the latest.

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This story just went up yesterday on Digitalmusicnews dot com,

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which is a great site by the way, if you're

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interested in this subject or anything involving the music industry.

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Major law firms are once again pushing for class certification

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in a high stakes lawsuit centering on the alleged anti

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competitive business practices of Live Nation and its Ticketmaster's subsidiary.

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Let's see it says here attorneys with Quinn, Emanuel Urkhart

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and Sullivan. That's a mouthful as well as Keller Postman

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just recently asked the court for class certification in the complaint,

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which technically dates back to twenty twenty two. And I

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think we've talked about this case specifically on the show.

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So back in the twenty twenty two action, the plaintiffs

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maintained that Live Nation and ticket Mapas had since updated

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their arbitration agreement in ways that renders it unenforceable. Okay.

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Next part of this fast forward passed multiple twists and

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turns to October twenty twenty four, when the Ninth Circuit

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then upheld a District Court ruling rejecting Ticketmaster's attempt to

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compel arbitration via quote an arbitrator employed by a newly

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created entity, new era ADR using novel and unusual expedited

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mass arbitration procedures unquote, letting the October ruling summary take

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the wheel. In the interests of brevity, The relevant quote

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panel held that the delegation clause of the arbitration agreement

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and the arbitration agreement as a whole were unconscionable and

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unenforceable under California law unquote. For this will all make

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sense eventually, we just got to get to it. Okay.

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So for a company Live Nation in this case that's

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face and is facing a number of suits from ticked

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off consumers, the development was of course significant. The promoter

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moved forward with a Supreme Court petition as well, with

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Live Nation slash Ticketmaster lacking quote the shield of an

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enforceable arbitration agreement unquote. The Columbia Law Journal of the

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Arts summed up, quote, it seems the plaintiffs are free

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to bring their antitrust case unquote.

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Speaker 3: So just to clarify for people too, a class certification

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is a legal step that comes before the actual class

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action lawsuit. It's when you go to court and you

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prove to the court that you've got numerous people, that

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there's commonality between it all, that there's adequate representation, that

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you meet all of the essential parts to go forward

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with a class astion lawsuit.

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Speaker 2: So this is a critical for a.

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Speaker 1: Step, right right, let's see. Okay, the next part of

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this enter the initially mentioned attempt to secure class certification

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with a related hearing schedule to take place on the

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morning of December fourth, so closer to the present. The

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filing largely recaps the alleged consumer harm resulting from the

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practices of Live Nation and Ticketmaster. Okay, this gets to

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the heart of the matter. Admittedly, as recent years have

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delivered more than a few qualms with and suits against

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the defendants, not to mention an ongoing doj antitrust action

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looking to split Ticketmaster from Live Nation, the underlying arguments

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don't exactly break new ground. The legal text reads, in

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part quote to backstop their exclusive dealing, defendants have leveraged

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their dominance in concert promotion to coerce venues. This is

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what I was referring to earlier. This is a problem

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Pearl Jam ran into to coerce venues into exclusive ticketing

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deals with Ticketmaster. Major venues rely on concert promoters to

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rent their space and sell tickets. Defendants exploit this dependence

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by tying Ticketmaster services to Live Nation promoted concerts. Unquote.

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I mean, look, let's call it what it is. They own.

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They own the concert industry. They own, they own.

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Speaker 2: It, and that's the problem.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and then that translates into these enormous ticket prices.

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I mentioned it earlier. The artist young Blood. He there's

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an interview out there with him talking about how ridiculous

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prices are and how he was really freaked out when

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he found out that people who were getting up front

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were paying three hundred dollars a ticket to see him,

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and he thought that was really grotesque, and a lot

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of artists do. But they're stuck between a rock and

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a hard place. You want to go to, you want

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to do a concert, you gotta have a venue. And

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if the venues got the exclusivity contract with Ticketmaster to

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do all the ticket sales, you can't do anything.

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Speaker 1: And even if there is no agreement, even if there

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is no exclusivity agreement, they're still going to lean on you, right,

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you know what I mean?

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Speaker 3: And if that's where the venue's going anyway, like, that's

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where they're doing. And it probably is simplicity they have.

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It's easier to put a concert up and sell the

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tickets through them than it is for the individual venues

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to do it themselves, which requires more employees or what

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have you.

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, they've used.

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Speaker 3: To be venues told sold their own tickets years ago, Yeah,

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years and years ago. But now that's completely pretty much

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unheard of. You you got to go to a ticket

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math where else.

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Speaker 2: Do you go to get a ticket?

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Speaker 1: I mean for small for you know, if you're a

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small promoter like so for example, we were just talking

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about vices Fest. You know, you go to you go

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to the Vice's fest website and you can buy tickets,

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but you know through you know, because you do have

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services like event right and so forth. But but if

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you're you're.

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Speaker 2: A venue that doesn't put a requirement on them.

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Speaker 1: How the ticket right, it's the Strand and Dover. It's

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not a you know, it's not an arena. But if

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you're in an arena or even even a lot of theaters,

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you know, this is this is what you're dealing with.

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It says here. Ultimately, this will leed misconduct caused class members,

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those who bought tickets in or after twenty ten and

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therefore coughed up quote associated primary ticketing fees for an

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event at a major concert venue unquote, to pay more

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than they would have in a competitive market. Per the document,

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Live Nation and Ticketmaster quote used their decade plus monopoly

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to raise prices, stifle competition, and output into grade service

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quality by squashing rivals and innovation impacts that each class

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member felt. Unquote, The filing says.

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Speaker 3: Can we say grow tesque greed again? It's the theme

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of the day. Oh yeah, oh yeah, grow test greed.

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That's what it like. They're not happy making money. They

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got to really take every dime out of the person's

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pocket that they can get. Well, it's it's sad, and

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it also disenfranchises so many people from being able to

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see artists. Because you get spent three hundred dollars on

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the ticket, it's going to cost you two hudred dollars

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for groceries for the week.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, you.

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Speaker 3: Don't really have three hundred discs laying around for the

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average joe, the average working man is getting the shaft

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on being able to go to concerts unless they play

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for nosebleeder seed. It's you know, you get your fifty

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bucks set up in the mesona behind a pole.

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Speaker 2: You can't see anything, but you can hear it.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it's not about quality for the customer anymore,

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is it.

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Speaker 1: It also says here it'll be worth noting. I'm sorry,

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it'll be worth tracking the push for class certification moving forward.

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Right now, Discovery is ongoing, and the plaintiff's council reiterated

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plans to prove their arguments with, among other things, testimony

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from Live Nation, Ticketmaster competitors, and market participants to boot.

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So that is from Digitalmusic News dot com. So that's

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where that stands. But there's another element here. This is

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from hypebot dot com, another site that has a lot

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of industry related news on it that's very interesting. So

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and this just went up. This just went up a

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last couple of days. Could state attorneys general use RICO

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to stop ticket scalpers and bots? Now the reason so

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part of what and the other article didn't get into

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this part of it, but part of what is so

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in city and we've talked about this on the show.

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Part of what is so insidious about the ticketing business

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is how is the secondary market and how so? And

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there's multi levels to this, but part of how that

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works is scalpers buy up these tickets and then resell

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them on their own sites ridiculous prices, right right, So

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so now you can't get so now the show has

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sold out through Ticketmaster, but now you can get it

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at a much higher price on one of these secondary sites.

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But here's the Kicker. Some of these secondary sites are

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literally they're actually owned by Live Nation.

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Speaker 2: Stop it really.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we've talked about that on the show before. Oh yeah, yeah,

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that's how How is that legal? That's how much they've

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rigged the game. Legal, you know, until the Justice Department

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says they can't do it anymore. No, it's it's all.

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It's all legal, at least for now. So this story

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is also interesting because it talks about scalpers and bots.

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So again this is from Hypebot. The Federal Trade Commission

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has filed the lawsuit in federal court in Maryland against

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Key Investment Group, a ticket reseller operating under names like

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epic Seats, total tickets dot Com, and totally Ticks. The

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FTC alleges that between November one, twenty twenty two, and

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December thirtieth, twenty twenty three, the company used thousands of

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fictitious or purchased Ticketmaster accounts, along with spoofed IP addresses,

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proxy networks, virtual credit cards, and simbach setups to evade

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purchasing limits on high demand events including and we definitely

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talked about this, including Taylor Swift's Eras tour. Oh yeah,

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remember all the contro now yep, yep. All together, the

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defendants purchased three hundred seventy nine thousand, seven hundred and

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seventy six tickets at a cost of nearly fifty seven million,

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reselling many for approximately sixty four million. Notably, two hundred

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seventy three tickets for one Swift concert were acquired via

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forty nine different accounts, far exceeding the sixth ticket per

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event limit. And by the way, just some quick math.

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I'm not good at math, but that's that's what a

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seven million dollar profit.

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Speaker 2: Us ruin music for everybody else.

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Speaker 1: Yep. The FTC alleges violations of both the Better Online

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Ticket Sales Act or BOTS, which prohibits circumventing online ticket controls,

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and the broader FTC Act, prohibiting unfair or deceptive business practices.

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Key Investment Group's defenses are likely to be that the

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company employs human buyers, not bots, and therefore the FDC

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is misapplying the BOTS Act, and that the lawsuit risks

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dismantling the secondary ticket market and ending competition, benefiting only

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major corporate players. Now so I'm guessing then, So what

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that means is so Key Investments Group defense will be Well,

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you know these fictitious accounts, these are actual human beings

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operating the fictitious accounts, therefore is not covered by the

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Bots Act. That'll be their defense. Let's see the loophole. Yeah,

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a loophole exactly. The case is part of an expanded

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federal court federal effort rather spurred by an executive order

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from March twenty twenty five, issued after President Trump met

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with kid Rock to promote transparency and fairness and ticket

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resale markets and to curb predatory resale tactics. Well, that's

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something I support, blind dog, that's right. The FTC's action

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reflects growing regulatory scrutiny of ticketing practices that disadvantages ordinary

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consumers at both the federal and state levels. Recall that

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the authors of the Obama era Bots Act were recently

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complaining that the FTC had rarely enforced that law. It

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seems unlikely that the FTC's enforcement action against Key Investment

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Group would have occurred without the broader policy momentum catalyzed

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by President Trump's executive order targeting ticket scalping and abusive

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resale practices. That order directed federal agencies, including the FTCNDJ,

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to prioritize investigations and enforcement actions addressing deceptive or anti

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competitive conduct in the live events and ticketing industries. The

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executive like what you said about a blind dog or

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a broken clock. The executive order was followed by public

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consultation processes jointly initiated by the DOJ and FTC to

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gather information on how ticket resellers were impacting consumer access

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and market fairness. These actions created a clear regulatory mandate

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to pursue high profile investigations like the one brought against

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Key Investment Group. I don't know if we have time

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to get through all of this just a little bit more.

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We don't have to think to go through the whole thing.

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But so the elements of a recocase, So how does

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this become a recocase racketeering? If the FTC case sounds

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like racketeering, that's because it is. To make a reco case,

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Federal or state prosecutors must show one enterprise a structured

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association formal or informal, two pattern of racketeering activity. At

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least two participate I'm sorry, at least two predicate crimes

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within ten years. Three predicate acts crimes like wire fraud,

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mail fraud, computer fraud, access device fraud, or identify theft,

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and for continuity conduct that is ongoing or opposes a

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threat of continuing harm. The FDC's complaint practically hands this

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up on a silver platter, multiple interlocking LLCs. You've got

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Key Investment Group, Total Tickets, dot Com totally takes front

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Rows Tickets, Wlke Investments plus individual managers provide the enterprise.

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The use of fake accounts, bots and deceptive transactions can

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likely be recast as wire fraud and computer fraud. The

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classic reco predicates and the continuity is obvious. The complaint

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says the conduct has persisted from twenty sixteen through today,

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So I'm going to kind of skip down here because

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we're running out of time. The FDC's complaint seeks civil

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penalties and injunctions, but a state recoaction could carry treble damages,

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asset for four orfeitures, and potentially criminal exposure. That shift

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in remedies would change the incentives dramatically for defendants who

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have so far treated civil finds as a cost of

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doing business, and beyond punishment, it would send a signal

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ticket Bodying isn't just unfair, it's racketeering. So there's more

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to the article. We don't have time to get through

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the rest of it, but I encourage you to check

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out hypebot dot com. Very interesting. And that is, by

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the way, how a lot of businesses get around things.

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Like you know, if something is is uh illegal but

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not necessarily a crime, but just there are potential fines involved. Yeah,

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you can say, okay, well that's the cost of doing

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business if I have to pay this fine, but the

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fine is well, that's the thing, but like a tax

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to them exactly. If the fine is say, okay, I

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got to pay this two hundred thousand dollars fine, but

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I made this but I made seven million on the transaction.

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Speaker 2: Who cares I've paid it?

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Speaker 1: Goss of doing business exactly, coss of doing business.

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Speaker 2: That's so terrible.

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Speaker 3: So on that note, it's the all these subsidiaries, it's

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all the different versions of themselves.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, exactly exactly.

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Speaker 2: And healthcare does the same thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go, there you go.