WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.639 --> 00:00:08.560 Hey, everybody, welcome back to another episode of JavaScript Jabber. 2 00:00:09.279 --> 00:00:11.279 This week, on our panel, we have Dan. 3 00:00:11.119 --> 00:00:13.720 Shapier, Hey, back in Israel. 4 00:00:15.039 --> 00:00:16.519 We also have Steve Edwards. 5 00:00:17.679 --> 00:00:21.199 Hey, coming from a it's definitely fall here in Portland. 6 00:00:22.600 --> 00:00:24.559 I'm Charles Maxwood from Top End Devs. 7 00:00:24.879 --> 00:00:27.199 It feels like it's been forever since I've been able 8 00:00:27.199 --> 00:00:29.519 to record a podcast, so it's good to. 9 00:00:29.480 --> 00:00:33.359 Be back on the micsh. Yeah, my travel schedule and 10 00:00:33.960 --> 00:00:39.000 work and everything and just yeah anyway, Yeah. 11 00:00:38.840 --> 00:00:41.039 We're going on the court right. 12 00:00:41.679 --> 00:00:45.359 Yeah, talk to Frost last week, and I forget who 13 00:00:45.399 --> 00:00:46.399 the other people have talked to. 14 00:00:47.560 --> 00:00:50.399 Yeah, I wanted any on that one, but I was 15 00:00:50.439 --> 00:00:52.399 at Rocky Mountain Ruby conference last week. 16 00:00:53.640 --> 00:00:54.280 Good for you. 17 00:00:55.200 --> 00:00:56.679 Yeah, I got. 18 00:00:58.520 --> 00:01:00.280 A lot of interesting things are going going in the 19 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:01.759 Rugby community community. Yeah. 20 00:01:01.759 --> 00:01:04.079 I was gonna say I got the scuttle butt on 21 00:01:04.280 --> 00:01:06.879 a whole bunch of the drama over there. 22 00:01:08.599 --> 00:01:12.560 You're yeah if uh, Well, I'm. 23 00:01:12.359 --> 00:01:15.680 Gonna record Ruby Rogues tomorrow and we're going to go 24 00:01:15.719 --> 00:01:20.000 through what I understand. It's funny I keep finding myself 25 00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:24.879 in a position lately between like this thing and Utah 26 00:01:24.959 --> 00:01:28.400 politics and stuff where it's hey, everybody, this is what's 27 00:01:28.439 --> 00:01:29.599 going on, and I can't. 28 00:01:29.359 --> 00:01:31.239 Tell you who's telling me what they're telling me. 29 00:01:31.400 --> 00:01:35.680 So, by the way, as long as coming from. 30 00:01:35.560 --> 00:01:39.799 The people directly involved, but they can't go on the record. 31 00:01:39.879 --> 00:01:43.000 So there's also a bit of drama going on in 32 00:01:43.040 --> 00:01:50.400 the React adjacent arena, what with the Remix three coming out. 33 00:01:51.280 --> 00:01:53.200 I haven't been following that. I'll go check it out. 34 00:01:54.040 --> 00:01:57.760 Yeah you should, by the way, before we get going, 35 00:01:58.319 --> 00:02:03.920 I just recalled that in the new State of JavaScript 36 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:08.840 survey is out, and I'm thinking that if our listeners 37 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:14.560 enjoy this podcast and I want to help us get 38 00:02:14.800 --> 00:02:18.159 to more people, maybe they should vote for us on 39 00:02:18.199 --> 00:02:18.759 that survey. 40 00:02:19.719 --> 00:02:27.599 Yes, absolutely speaking brother, Yeah, yeah, I think it's just 41 00:02:27.680 --> 00:02:30.120 STATEOFJS dot com. 42 00:02:30.759 --> 00:02:32.680 It's STATEOFJS dot com exactly. 43 00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:37.039 Yes, ye, so yeah, and it's always interesting to see 44 00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:39.520 what the results of that are so or what. 45 00:02:39.719 --> 00:02:44.560 Yeah, the results we usually come out somewhere between third 46 00:02:44.599 --> 00:02:47.719 and fifth. It will be nice if we can make 47 00:02:47.759 --> 00:02:48.639 it a bit higher. 48 00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:52.680 Yeah, but I meant also just you know what people 49 00:02:52.719 --> 00:02:56.280 are using and where the community's at and all of 50 00:02:56.319 --> 00:02:57.000 that great stuff. 51 00:02:57.080 --> 00:03:03.960 So oh yeah, for sure, it's interesting, although I always 52 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:07.400 wonder what I should actually like quote unquote do with 53 00:03:07.479 --> 00:03:08.680 the results. 54 00:03:08.840 --> 00:03:14.080 Right, right, Yeah, I want to vote for us. 55 00:03:14.840 --> 00:03:17.800 I was, you know, this is not the topic of 56 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:20.280 the show, and we probably should have a show about it, 57 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:23.199 or maybe bring somebody from the survey on our show. 58 00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:30.639 But I was kind of surprised or negatively surprised a 59 00:03:30.680 --> 00:03:34.560 bit from last year's survey about or was it some 60 00:03:34.599 --> 00:03:36.800 other survey. I think it was actually a different survey 61 00:03:37.319 --> 00:03:40.479 about the salaries in the field. They are lower than 62 00:03:40.520 --> 00:03:41.599 I would have expected. 63 00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:48.879 Yeah, yeah, we should definitely get talk about some of that. 64 00:03:49.000 --> 00:03:52.360 I mean, the market out there is different from it 65 00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:54.360 has what it has been in the past. I've talked 66 00:03:54.400 --> 00:03:57.800 to a number of people that are. 67 00:03:56.520 --> 00:04:00.000 Having trouble finding work. Yeah. 68 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:02.319 Anyway, there's a lot going on there that's definitely we're 69 00:04:02.360 --> 00:04:02.879 talking about. 70 00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:06.120 And maybe what we're talking about today can explain some 71 00:04:06.199 --> 00:04:07.080 of these challenges. 72 00:04:08.039 --> 00:04:11.159 Yeah, well yeah, and let's go ahead and get into that. 73 00:04:13.400 --> 00:04:15.840 So the topic that I put up, I was the 74 00:04:15.879 --> 00:04:19.120 one that proposed this topic was how to use AI 75 00:04:19.279 --> 00:04:24.120 in your JavaScript development? And I was mostly focused on tools, 76 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:26.600 not necessarily, hey how do you build features into your 77 00:04:26.600 --> 00:04:29.839 apps with AI? But you know, how do you use 78 00:04:29.879 --> 00:04:34.399 the lllms and other tools to write your code and 79 00:04:34.879 --> 00:04:37.879 just to get started. I'm curious what AI tools do 80 00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:42.120 you guys use on a regular basis when you're writing code. 81 00:04:44.680 --> 00:04:47.000 Steve, do you want to go first or should I? Yeah? 82 00:04:47.079 --> 00:04:49.079 I don't. Yeah, I'm a I don't know if you 83 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:50.600 want to call me the grumpy old man or the 84 00:04:50.639 --> 00:04:52.480 get off my lawn kind of guy. 85 00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:54.680 I haven't really I. 86 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:57.680 Haven't really dived into it, you know, full steam ahead. 87 00:04:57.680 --> 00:04:59.759 I'll give an example. I was listening to a podcast 88 00:04:59.800 --> 00:05:04.439 with guy from coinbase here over the past week and 89 00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:08.319 they are either are or their goal is to have 90 00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:12.319 like forty percent of their code written by AI. You're 91 00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:15.600 talking about all their different tool chains and review processes stuff, 92 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:15.959 and I was. 93 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:21.800 Like, WHOA, I mean, my interesting. I just found out that. 94 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:26.920 I have access to cloude code through work be a 95 00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:28.279 bedrock on AWS. 96 00:05:28.360 --> 00:05:29.759 I got to get that set. 97 00:05:29.560 --> 00:05:33.160 Up so I can use that, but I primarily use. 98 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:33.879 It for. 99 00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:41.160 Troubleshooting, well troubleshooting air converting code. And it's like, man, 100 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:44.279 I can't you know this is I've got this code here, 101 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:45.639 I want to be able to do this, and I've 102 00:05:45.680 --> 00:05:46.720 been able to figure something out. 103 00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:47.319 How can I do that? 104 00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:51.800 In algamy hint, you know, to go that way, or 105 00:05:51.879 --> 00:05:53.920 if I need some short little thing here, write me this, 106 00:05:54.439 --> 00:05:57.600 you know function that does this. And I will never 107 00:05:57.759 --> 00:05:59.920 ever just say Okay, that's good, put it in a letter. 108 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:02.560 You know, I'm always going to you know, test it 109 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:04.439 out and make sure it works. And usually I'm gonna 110 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:07.720 have to tweak it or something like that. What do 111 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:11.040 you say, just for troubleshooting, you know, Hey, I'm stuck 112 00:06:11.079 --> 00:06:14.839 on this, Help me get this figured out or you know, 113 00:06:14.959 --> 00:06:17.879 getting over you know, maybe give me ideas to get 114 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:20.079 past the thorny issue. 115 00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:22.560 But that's about it, at least for me. 116 00:06:23.240 --> 00:06:26.000 When you say test it out, what do you mean? 117 00:06:26.519 --> 00:06:27.800 Well, I mean, I'm going to run it in my 118 00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:30.319 in you know, I'm going to put it in, but 119 00:06:30.319 --> 00:06:32.720 I'm going to run it and run run it through 120 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:35.279 the different iterations in different use cases and make sure 121 00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:36.759 that it's actually working. 122 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:37.600 You know. 123 00:06:37.720 --> 00:06:41.240 And sometimes there's like variable naming issues where I'm going 124 00:06:41.319 --> 00:06:43.480 to name it them people more consistent with the way 125 00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:45.480 we do it in the project and that kind of stuff. 126 00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:50.040 But sure, but I mean, you know, test it out 127 00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:52.160 is something that I assume you do to your own 128 00:06:52.199 --> 00:06:52.879 code as well. 129 00:06:53.800 --> 00:06:55.560 Oh yeah, absolutely so. 130 00:06:55.759 --> 00:06:59.879 In that regard, I've worked with people who don't. Yeah, 131 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:06.920 well okay, you know you could you could be in 132 00:07:06.600 --> 00:07:11.079 in an optimist, I guess, uh you know by the 133 00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:15.240 way that story about what's the difference, Like the optimist 134 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:18.399 is the class half full, the pessimist is the glass 135 00:07:18.399 --> 00:07:20.839 half empty, and the developer says, we could have used 136 00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:26.560 a smaller glass. Uh. But but yeah, I know, I 137 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:29.759 mean what I was trying to say, Steve is in 138 00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:33.279 that regard, you're not treating the code differently than you 139 00:07:33.319 --> 00:07:34.920 would treat your own code. 140 00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:41.240 Right that mm hmm, Yeah, I just you know, having 141 00:07:44.040 --> 00:07:46.160 I mean, just thinking, Okay, I go write me this 142 00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:48.279 code and then let's go ahead and commit it and 143 00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:51.639 you know, run it through a testing pipeline or whatever, 144 00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:53.639 just makes me nervous. 145 00:07:54.759 --> 00:07:58.040 Yeah, you know, it's just caught me the control freak er, 146 00:07:59.319 --> 00:07:59.519 you know. 147 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:02.319 I I go back to surveys I saw, you know, 148 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:06.759 after the various stories and surveys I read in different 149 00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:09.600 places after you know, the first eight when when you 150 00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:11.319 know it was a chat TPD four I think was 151 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:15.480 a real big open the floodgates type of event that 152 00:08:15.600 --> 00:08:19.920 really yeah, got made it, you know more every day 153 00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:21.639 and people, oh gods, let's build with AI. 154 00:08:21.720 --> 00:08:22.079 Everything. 155 00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:23.040 Hey, we're using AI. 156 00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:25.000 Even the half of them probably had no idea what 157 00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:25.560 that meant. 158 00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:29.680 You'd see surveys like, you know, eighty percent of code 159 00:08:29.720 --> 00:08:35.120 that was may I ends up getting reverted later. And so, uh, 160 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:39.279 that's why I'm just you know, I'm a real big skeptic, 161 00:08:39.399 --> 00:08:41.279 and you know, when I see it work, then maybe 162 00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:44.480 I'll started to trust it. But again, for me, it's 163 00:08:44.519 --> 00:08:47.320 just helped to generate ideas and get me going or 164 00:08:47.320 --> 00:08:47.679 get me. 165 00:08:47.639 --> 00:08:49.600 Past the sticking point. That's about it. 166 00:08:51.240 --> 00:08:57.279 Yeah, it's yeah, yeah, it's It's interesting that we did 167 00:08:57.320 --> 00:09:02.120 have at least two episodes about vibe voting research. We 168 00:09:02.279 --> 00:09:08.159 brought over both Gunner Uh, who talked about it from 169 00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:14.080 the perspective of of doing it as a PM or 170 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:19.639 b D and UH, and we talked with who was 171 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:22.840 it to look talked about vibe coding from the perspective 172 00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:29.519 of developer whose name escapes me momentarily, I remember in 173 00:09:29.519 --> 00:09:33.639 in a in a second, that's definitely not what I do. 174 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:38.000 I use. I use AI tooling a lot. It's I 175 00:09:38.039 --> 00:09:40.879 think it's made a dramatic impact on the way I 176 00:09:40.879 --> 00:09:46.279 write code. But I'm definitely not vibe coding. I'm not 177 00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:52.399 I'm using it as as a tool, uh, not as 178 00:09:52.440 --> 00:09:59.159 a replacement. I I do know uh some some developer 179 00:09:59.240 --> 00:10:03.120 friends who've literally kind of said that they're kind of 180 00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:08.759 like behaving a bit like product these days, like really 181 00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:13.200 spelling out the requirements in a lot of detail and 182 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:17.600 then kind of letting the code right itself as it were. 183 00:10:19.200 --> 00:10:23.360 I'm not there, but it has made a significant difference 184 00:10:23.480 --> 00:10:26.600 on how I write code. So, first of all, about 185 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:31.360 the tooling we use. So I work at License, We 186 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:38.399 do embedded analytics and stuff like that and AI driven analytics, 187 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:43.120 and we went all the way with AI, so it's 188 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:46.240 kind of a mandate these days to use AI tooling 189 00:10:46.360 --> 00:10:49.039 for the developer task. It's not like up to us 190 00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:51.279 to decide whether or not we want to use it. 191 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:56.799 It's really our requirement. So our development environment is Cursor. 192 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:03.200 Most of us use it with force on it, and 193 00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:08.799 we also use code Rabbit for code reviews, so we 194 00:11:08.919 --> 00:11:11.639 get to get kind of like a two layer system 195 00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:20.639 in this sense, and we also use Gemini for miscellaneous tasks. 196 00:11:21.039 --> 00:11:24.480 So those are the AI tools that we use. And 197 00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:27.720 I can later elaborate about the kind of difference that 198 00:11:27.799 --> 00:11:29.240 it's made for me personally. 199 00:11:30.639 --> 00:11:36.919 What about you, Chuck, So, I my experience with AI 200 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:41.240 using AI tooling kind of runs the gamut. I also 201 00:11:41.320 --> 00:11:44.440 spoke at Commit Your Code conference, but that was more 202 00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:47.000 on how to build an AI chatbot and it just 203 00:11:47.000 --> 00:11:50.159 covered the fundamentals. So I'm kind of living in both 204 00:11:50.200 --> 00:11:52.759 worlds as far as like building stuff with AI and 205 00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:55.000 then also building stuff with AI, if you know what 206 00:11:55.080 --> 00:12:01.480 I mean. So, yeah, I mean, so just to give 207 00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:06.559 you a sense of what I'm using. At price picks, 208 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:12.840 they're paying for credits on get Help Copilot. They'll pay 209 00:12:12.879 --> 00:12:17.240 for a cursor thing instead if I want it, or 210 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:19.679 you know, there are a couple of other options, right, 211 00:12:19.759 --> 00:12:23.039 so I could pick my tool. I just already had 212 00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:24.600 that and I'm too lazy to ask for something else 213 00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:29.840 because I don't care. And so because it'll do the 214 00:12:29.879 --> 00:12:33.120 agent mode or the ask mode and I and so 215 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:36.279 sometimes I'm asking it questions, Hey, you know, how how 216 00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:37.679 would I approach this? 217 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:42.039 Or you know, I need something, you know, relatively simple. 218 00:12:41.799 --> 00:12:43.240 And I'm just not thinking of how to do it 219 00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:45.480 right now, and so it'll put something in and then 220 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:47.360 I can kind of riff off of it from there. Right, 221 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:49.799 so I can go, Okay, this is pretty close to 222 00:12:49.879 --> 00:12:52.279 I want what I wanted, and then I can clean 223 00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:54.879 it up. Another thing that I've done with it a 224 00:12:54.879 --> 00:12:58.159 bit is I've had it help me write my. 225 00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:03.440 Tests, and so I definitely want to talk about that 226 00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:06.480 in more detail because I consider it very much a 227 00:13:06.519 --> 00:13:07.279 double edged sword. 228 00:13:08.200 --> 00:13:09.480 Yes, it is definitely. 229 00:13:10.600 --> 00:13:12.799 All of this comes with the caveat of yeah, I 230 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:19.039 heavily review and modify whatever I'm given. Very rarely do 231 00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:22.639 I just accept what it gives me on the other stuff, 232 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:26.759 on the personal stuff. So building stuff for like top 233 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:29.720 ENDEVS or top endevs is actually hosted on the system, 234 00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:34.000 a multi tenant application that I plan on offering as 235 00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:36.679 a SaaS product to allow people to kind of have 236 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:43.440 channels for communities like top end deevs is, and so 237 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:46.919 i've actually, I don't know if I've gone like full 238 00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:50.559 vibe coding on it. There are definitely things that I 239 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:53.000 haven't built before, and I didn't quite know how to approach, 240 00:13:53.399 --> 00:13:57.000 and so I did spell out, here are my requirements, 241 00:13:57.799 --> 00:14:01.039 here are the things I needed to do, and then 242 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:04.000 I would let it code and then turn around and 243 00:14:04.039 --> 00:14:05.759 so I'd run it and see if it was working. 244 00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:09.039 And then once I have it working, either because I 245 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:11.519 debugged it or because I had the AI debug it, 246 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:15.159 then I would go in and do some code cleanup 247 00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:17.000 and things like that, Hey, I don't like it when 248 00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:21.559 you you know, do a try catch on you know, 249 00:14:21.639 --> 00:14:24.440 big blocks of code and then swallow the errors hole 250 00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:28.000 or things like that, right, and because it does stuff 251 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:30.919 that I just I'm just like this, this is such 252 00:14:31.399 --> 00:14:35.159 not good practice. But I do get working code out 253 00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:38.200 of it, and so and then I can kind of 254 00:14:38.200 --> 00:14:40.840 go and learn from what it did, right, because it's like, Okay, 255 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:43.519 I see your approach here. I don't like this part 256 00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:45.559 of the approach, so I'll change that. But then I 257 00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:51.039 can see how to do whatever I did. So, for example, 258 00:14:51.679 --> 00:14:55.159 the audio player on top end devs was mostly built 259 00:14:55.720 --> 00:14:57.919 with AI, and it was mostly because I just haven't 260 00:14:57.919 --> 00:15:03.600 done a ton of stuff with a script audio interface stuff, 261 00:15:04.360 --> 00:15:06.679 and so it could whip it up right, and then 262 00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:08.879 I could go and look at it and say, all right, 263 00:15:08.919 --> 00:15:10.840 I see what you're doing here, and then I got 264 00:15:10.840 --> 00:15:12.240 it done way faster than I would have done it 265 00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:12.720 on my own. 266 00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:17.000 That's kind of an amusing, amusing thing that when I 267 00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:19.919 talked to developers a lot of developers, not all, but 268 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:23.519 a lot of developers about using AI tooling. They signed 269 00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:28.519 kind of apologetic, like, uh, yeah, it does what I wanted, 270 00:15:28.720 --> 00:15:32.399 So I just you know, took whatever it gave. 271 00:15:32.519 --> 00:15:33.480 No apologies here. 272 00:15:33.799 --> 00:15:37.279 It's it's really nice to have for those areas where 273 00:15:37.320 --> 00:15:38.879 it's just like, you know, I don't have the expertise 274 00:15:38.919 --> 00:15:41.279 here or I don't have you know, I have never 275 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:43.799 done this before, and you know it'll give me some 276 00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:45.799 it gives me a huge head start. 277 00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:50.279 So yeah, for sure, it's It kind of reminds me 278 00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:54.279 of those days when I worked at Wix and a 279 00:15:54.360 --> 00:15:59.759 question that used to occasionally come out amongst website builders 280 00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:04.320 is was you know that we're actually building websites for customers. 281 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:08.720 Is is it okay quote unquote to use wis or 282 00:16:08.840 --> 00:16:12.279 is it cheating again quote unquote? And I would say, 283 00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:15.720 and my answer was, if it satisfies the record, the 284 00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:21.559 customer's requirements, what's wrong with it? If your customer tells 285 00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:25.120 you specifically don't use Wix because I don't want it, 286 00:16:25.159 --> 00:16:27.919 I don't like it, whatever, then obviously you shouldn't. But 287 00:16:28.039 --> 00:16:30.919 if the requirement is to provide a website that does 288 00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:33.799 something and you're able to achieve it using Wix and 289 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:36.799 it meets all the customers requirements, go for it. And 290 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:42.799 likewise with AI, if AI generates properly working code, you know, great. Yeah, 291 00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:45.720 why should I waste my precious time on something that 292 00:16:45.799 --> 00:16:49.919 I can get from the machine wasting it's time. By 293 00:16:49.960 --> 00:16:54.000 the way, that's an interesting thing is that sometimes I 294 00:16:54.120 --> 00:16:56.399 give when I give it an AI a certain task, 295 00:16:57.039 --> 00:16:59.759 it is able to achieve it, but it takes it 296 00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:03.480 longer than it would have taken me, and then I 297 00:17:03.639 --> 00:17:06.160 kind of and then I kind of think to myself, 298 00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:11.640 like was it worth it? And I'm sitting here staring 299 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:14.839 at the screen and waiting for it to finish because 300 00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:17.680 I can't really work on anything else while it's doing 301 00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:20.880 this stuff, and I really want to see what it's doing. Uh, 302 00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:22.640 and and sometimes it takes a walk. 303 00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:26.319 Yeah, so a couple of things on that. 304 00:17:28.119 --> 00:17:31.480 Yeah, I've run into that too, or it got it 305 00:17:31.640 --> 00:17:35.359 just right enough to where I had to keep working 306 00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:37.039 with it to get what I wanted, and that's what 307 00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:37.920 took longer. 308 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:40.640 But by the. 309 00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:45.599 Way, as an aside, before you continue, my distinction between 310 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:50.440 vibe coding and AI assisted coding, and it's my personal 311 00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:54.640 take uh is if you give you know, you give, 312 00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:58.599 you give certain instructions at the prompt and it generates 313 00:17:58.599 --> 00:18:01.759 some code and that code is not good enough for 314 00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:07.400 some reason. Will you if you just try to fix 315 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:12.319 it by again providing more and more instructions via the 316 00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:16.640 prompt and just using effectively the prompt, then it's vibe coding. 317 00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:21.480 If you at a certain point actually say okay, enough's 318 00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:24.319 enough and I dive into the code to you know, 319 00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:28.519 to get it even that last extra mile that for 320 00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:32.440 me is becomes no longer vibe coode. That becomes ar well. 321 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:33.559 Than I do a mix. 322 00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:36.920 So on one last thing that I wanted to add 323 00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:43.559 with this is and we had Eric handschet on and 324 00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:48.119 he was talking about what is a KIRO and he 325 00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:54.039 was talking about the plan. So on Copilot, on Cursor, 326 00:18:54.640 --> 00:18:57.519 and on KIRO you have the option to you can ask, 327 00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:00.279 you can allow it to edit some stuff, you can 328 00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:02.920 give it, turn on the agent and have the agent 329 00:19:02.960 --> 00:19:07.799 actually you know, do larger modifications to your code. And 330 00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:10.680 then in KIRO they had a plan option and so 331 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:13.880 you could tell it what you wanted and then instead 332 00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:17.799 of executing right away and modifying your code, what it 333 00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:20.319 would do is it would work with you and ask 334 00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:24.880 more questions and get the requirements to build a plan, 335 00:19:24.920 --> 00:19:26.160 and then it would execute the plan. 336 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:29.920 And I was fiddling with Cursor and it. 337 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:32.599 Just added yeah, exactly. 338 00:19:32.680 --> 00:19:34.720 And so I've been using that and I have to 339 00:19:34.759 --> 00:19:38.160 say that so for some of the things that I've 340 00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:42.559 had to do, that was really really nice because I 341 00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:45.160 understood better what the what the agent was going to 342 00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:47.440 do for me when I told it to go go 343 00:19:47.559 --> 00:19:50.640 build stuff. And the other thing is is that it 344 00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:53.880 really did allow me to flesh out. 345 00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:54.640 What I really wanted. 346 00:19:55.359 --> 00:19:58.039 And so even if I never got around to clicking 347 00:19:58.039 --> 00:20:00.599 the build button so that it would go and the plan, 348 00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:04.400 I knew what I was putting together. And so I 349 00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:07.240 have to say I really really like that. And then 350 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:09.559 one other tool that I use for some of this stuff, 351 00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:13.640 for some of that planning stuff before it showed up 352 00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:17.160 and Cursor, was I would actually use Grock And so 353 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:21.000 I like using the voice assistant in Grock. 354 00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:22.599 And so I'll tell. 355 00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:24.559 It, you know, I want a system that does this, 356 00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:27.160 and I'm not sure how to do it, so you know, 357 00:20:28.839 --> 00:20:32.759 and sometimes it's more on the ops and infrastructure side 358 00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:37.359 than on the programming side, per se but I'll say, Okay, 359 00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:40.680 I need this, how do I get it? And it'll 360 00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:43.799 come back, and I mean sometimes it's wrong, right, It'll 361 00:20:43.799 --> 00:20:46.279 come back and it'll say you need to use this open. 362 00:20:46.079 --> 00:20:47.960 Source software blah blah blah blah. 363 00:20:48.039 --> 00:20:49.839 And then I go look up the open source software 364 00:20:49.880 --> 00:20:52.960 and it doesn't exist and there's nothing that's even named 365 00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:54.039 remotely close. 366 00:20:53.799 --> 00:20:56.240 To like it. Right, but it had all the features 367 00:20:56.279 --> 00:20:57.839 I wanted, according to Grock. 368 00:20:58.039 --> 00:21:00.440 And then I'll go back and I'll ask Rock for 369 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:02.759 more help, and it'll come back and tell me that 370 00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:05.559 that open source software doesn't exist, and I'm going, then. 371 00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:07.119 Why did you tell me about it? 372 00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:11.000 Kind of remind me of that you remember, you remember 373 00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:16.480 that thing where somebody there was this trial and somebody 374 00:21:16.599 --> 00:21:23.799 used AI as their lawyer and it invented case past 375 00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:25.759 cases like yeah, so. 376 00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:30.640 Yeah, But I have to say that probably three quarters 377 00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:33.559 of the time when I'm asking Rock how to architect 378 00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:37.680 something or you know, orchestrate some infrastructure or pull in 379 00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:41.279 some open source system that I need to integrate with, 380 00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:45.160 it's correct or at least mostly correct. 381 00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:46.279 And again it. 382 00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:48.759 Just gets me way down the road where it would 383 00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:51.559 have taken me hours to go and research it by 384 00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:54.039 doing a Google search in the browser and then going 385 00:21:54.359 --> 00:21:56.799 and validating some of this stuff. 386 00:21:57.440 --> 00:22:02.160 So anyway, so that that's how I'm using AI in 387 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:02.759 my stuff. 388 00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:05.839 That's interesting. 389 00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:08.720 So hey, Dan, real quick, you had I wanted to 390 00:22:08.839 --> 00:22:13.559 go back to our conversation with Gunnar or Gunnar sorry 391 00:22:13.640 --> 00:22:17.079 Gunnar if I'm butchering your name, and you were talking 392 00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:21.079 about the difference between vibe coding and AI assisted coding, 393 00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:23.559 at least to your distinction. 394 00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:24.559 Uh. 395 00:22:24.680 --> 00:22:27.880 I remember our discussion with him and his his use 396 00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:32.279 of vibe coding was basically to generate something that would 397 00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:34.680 give him a starting point to talk with designers about, 398 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:38.240 you know, something visual. He didn't care necessarily about the 399 00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:41.799 details of what it was doing underneath the hood. He 400 00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:45.079 just cared about the hood, right, something visual? Hey, this 401 00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:46.440 is this is what I'm thinking. 402 00:22:46.920 --> 00:22:48.480 Where can we go from here? 403 00:22:48.519 --> 00:22:50.920 So he wasn't, you know, actually doing the coding. He 404 00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:52.920 just wanted something visual that he could talk with other 405 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:56.279 people with. So that's how I saw. That's how I 406 00:22:56.519 --> 00:23:00.119 guess I would define vibe coding versus you know you 407 00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:02.759 and I am actually writing, well, I'm. 408 00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:05.640 Not so hang on, okay, go ahead. 409 00:23:05.960 --> 00:23:09.400 Because I I lean more toward what Dan was saying 410 00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:12.960 in the sense that so one podcast I listened to 411 00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:17.359 is Podcasting two point zero, which is Adam Curry and. 412 00:23:20.079 --> 00:23:22.039 I can't remember the other guy, but they're the guys 413 00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:23.480 the guy in the podcast Index. 414 00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:31.920 Yeah, but Adam Curry invented podcasting with Dave what's his name. 415 00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:35.440 I can't remember his name either, but anyway, so yeah, 416 00:23:35.480 --> 00:23:38.200 so they have a conversation every week and they're talking 417 00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:43.240 about podcast Index and things like that, and Adam Curry 418 00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:48.319 has actually been vibe coding a system the host podcasts 419 00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:54.480 and stuff like that, and to me, he so he 420 00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:57.480 he freely admits he's not a programmer, and so his 421 00:23:57.559 --> 00:24:00.759 whole process is is the AI right, And so if 422 00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:03.200 it doesn't work, he just asks the AI for more 423 00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:05.400 help and more help and more help. And then on 424 00:24:05.480 --> 00:24:09.400 occasion he'll actually go and do enough research to get 425 00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:11.839 dangerous enough with the code to go look at it 426 00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:14.519 and say, no, this is actually the problem, go fix it, 427 00:24:14.839 --> 00:24:17.640 and then he usually lets the AI go fix that too. 428 00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:21.400 And so if you're working exclusively or nearly exclusively with 429 00:24:21.480 --> 00:24:24.119 the AI to get your code out there, and you're 430 00:24:24.119 --> 00:24:29.039 not modifying it or using skilled a skilled approach to 431 00:24:29.960 --> 00:24:33.039 do the work. Then Yeah, that to me is vibe coding, 432 00:24:33.079 --> 00:24:34.519 and I think that's what Dan was saying. 433 00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:37.960 Yeah, exactly, because, by the way, the other person we 434 00:24:38.039 --> 00:24:41.599 had talked about vibe coding from the developer's perspective was 435 00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:49.279 Anthony Compolo, and that was on episode six eighty seven. Anyway, Yeah, 436 00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:54.920 what Gunner basically said is I'm a product manager and 437 00:24:55.680 --> 00:25:00.680 consequently I don't know how to code or I don't 438 00:25:00.680 --> 00:25:04.799 want to code, and therefore the way that I vibe 439 00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:10.559 code is basically just prompting for additional changes. He, by 440 00:25:10.599 --> 00:25:14.920 the way, said that is the tools improve. They're going 441 00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:20.880 beyond just creating a smarter mockup to a point where 442 00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:23.599 you know it's getting close enough to a product. And 443 00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:27.039 in fact, as we all know, there are services out 444 00:25:27.079 --> 00:25:34.039 there that have been built effectively via vibe coding. And again, 445 00:25:34.039 --> 00:25:36.559 if you can get it to work well enough, then 446 00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:41.559 bully for you. But there have been various situations where 447 00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:49.000 things crashed and burned, or had performance issues, security issues, yes, 448 00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:52.960 or just plain old bugs that the creator just didn't 449 00:25:53.000 --> 00:25:53.680 know how to fix. 450 00:25:54.039 --> 00:25:56.599 Yeah, there was Syntax did a whole episode on There 451 00:25:56.680 --> 00:25:58.799 was one app and I cannot remember for life of. 452 00:25:58.720 --> 00:25:59.519 Me what it was. 453 00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:02.359 But the gist of it was that they had built 454 00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:07.400 on Firebase and left the default setting for the database 455 00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:10.680 so that it was open, and so people as part 456 00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:13.960 of the app, people were required to upload pictures of 457 00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:19.599 driver's licenses and for verification. And so because of the 458 00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:22.279 default setting that was left there, they left the API 459 00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:24.640 end points wide open, and so anybody could hit the 460 00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:26.599 A point API in points and get all the driver's 461 00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:27.440 license information. 462 00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:29.079 And it was purely vibe coded. 463 00:26:29.640 --> 00:26:31.200 You know, it wasn't people who knew what they were 464 00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:33.359 doing this that hey, build the system they did and 465 00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:37.039 had left this security vulnerability that was just wide open. 466 00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:41.799 That said, how many startups found their lead developers on 467 00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:45.319 develop on craiglist and then they left it wide open. 468 00:26:46.839 --> 00:26:49.039 Yeah. Well, and the other thing is is that. 469 00:26:50.519 --> 00:26:53.359 You know that that again is kind of a high 470 00:26:53.440 --> 00:26:58.200 level architecture decision that you that they wouldn't know to make. 471 00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:02.400 But in a lot of other cases, I've I've seen 472 00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:05.440 people that again you know, have vibe coded a good 473 00:27:05.559 --> 00:27:11.480 chunk of their stuff where security and other factors aren't 474 00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:14.599 as serious an issue, and yeah, they end up with 475 00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:19.000 something that works and. 476 00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:20.119 When it's security not such an issue I mean, sure, 477 00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:24.599 if you're uploading driver's licenses, that's probably you need more. 478 00:27:24.799 --> 00:27:26.200 Guess I guess that's what it is. 479 00:27:26.200 --> 00:27:26.319 Is. 480 00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:29.960 Yeah, the consequences aren't as you know, you're not compromising 481 00:27:29.960 --> 00:27:31.519 somebody's identity or something like that. 482 00:27:31.559 --> 00:27:35.720 But yeah, but by the way, a funny thing. Riverside 483 00:27:36.119 --> 00:27:38.839 has an interesting behavior. I logged in as a host 484 00:27:38.920 --> 00:27:41.640 and now when I posted a reply in the chat, 485 00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:43.119 it says that I'm you Chuck. 486 00:27:44.279 --> 00:27:47.119 Yeah, yeah, we can. Also, my name I think is 487 00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:52.200 on the right. Don't get me in trouble. Actually maybe 488 00:27:52.200 --> 00:27:59.279 I don't care, but that yeah, it's it. Yeah, the 489 00:27:59.480 --> 00:28:01.319 account is set up under my name. That's why. 490 00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:05.680 But anyway, so but still anyway, it's because it does 491 00:28:05.799 --> 00:28:09.079 know my name on in the video. So it's funny 492 00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:12.000 that in the chat it put your name rather than mine. Anyway, 493 00:28:12.279 --> 00:28:13.039 it's funny. 494 00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:17.279 But yeah, so I kind of want to get into that. 495 00:28:17.359 --> 00:28:20.279 I know there were some things about how we're using the. 496 00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:25.160 So i'd like to say about a little bit because 497 00:28:25.160 --> 00:28:27.559 I talked about which tools I'm using, but I didn't 498 00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:30.599 talk about the processes that I'm using, So I would 499 00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:33.839 like to talk about that. So I recently before I 500 00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:36.200 went on vacation, which is going to be one of 501 00:28:36.200 --> 00:28:38.880 my picks. So if you are interested in my amazing 502 00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:43.160 vacation way till the end. So before I went on 503 00:28:43.400 --> 00:28:49.720 vacation too, so I was working on adding we create. 504 00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:55.720 We are creating this new service, and we are making 505 00:28:55.759 --> 00:29:00.599 it possible to purchase the service online. We had not 506 00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:04.880 done that with previous services in the company. Previously, everything 507 00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:09.720 would you go to sales. And so I was working 508 00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:16.799 on Stripe integration for our product. And this was you know, 509 00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:21.160 right for for using an AI for because it's all 510 00:29:21.240 --> 00:29:26.240 well known technologies, right and very well documented. Uh. And 511 00:29:26.519 --> 00:29:31.880 I and so I built this service from scratch myself, 512 00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:36.799 using as I said, mostly Cursor, also with some assistance 513 00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:41.960 from Gemini, and it really sped up the process. So 514 00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:46.039 I did not vibe code. I looked at every line 515 00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:53.000 of code that every every line of code that was pushed. 516 00:29:53.799 --> 00:29:53.920 Uh. 517 00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:57.519 You know, my eyes s candid at one point or another. 518 00:29:59.079 --> 00:30:01.680 But and I and I did a lot of manual fixes. 519 00:30:02.359 --> 00:30:08.319 But I would estimate that it like effectively doubled my speed, 520 00:30:09.319 --> 00:30:11.640 which is a lot. 521 00:30:12.039 --> 00:30:14.880 So you're now a twenty X developer exactly. 522 00:30:15.400 --> 00:30:19.960 No, I'm I'm, I'm, I'm I'm a three hundred and 523 00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:22.880 sixty five ex developer, and I'm going to let you 524 00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:29.440 figure out how that works, you know, and in the side, 525 00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:31.480 and I think we had an episode on that once. 526 00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:37.599 Is that that whole ten X stuff and how we 527 00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:40.480 all hate it and stuff like that. I said that, 528 00:30:40.599 --> 00:30:43.240 on the one hand, there's no release any sort of 529 00:30:43.319 --> 00:30:45.680 thing like a ten X, But on the other hand, 530 00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:49.000 I would say there's an infinity X, because if you're 531 00:30:49.039 --> 00:30:52.119 a certain level of developer, you can do things that 532 00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:57.079 others just aren't not able to do. But anyway, I 533 00:30:57.680 --> 00:31:03.799 going going back on topic. So for example, this, because 534 00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:06.079 it was a new project, it required a whole lot 535 00:31:06.119 --> 00:31:12.519 of configuration, you know, setting up Darker properly and setting 536 00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:16.319 I usedn s JS for the back end, so setting 537 00:31:16.400 --> 00:31:21.799 up an SGS project and and uh configuring all the 538 00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:26.160 uh you know, typescript and linting and and the and 539 00:31:26.279 --> 00:31:28.440 the and the c I c D and all that stuff. 540 00:31:29.079 --> 00:31:34.039 And I hate configuration. Uh. I suck at configuration. And 541 00:31:35.079 --> 00:31:41.319 luckily for me, AI excel at configuration. UH. So getting 542 00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:46.359 the project up and running was so much smoother and 543 00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:50.240 less painful that it would otherwise have been. That it 544 00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:55.480 isn't even funny. Uh, and that made me so much 545 00:31:55.559 --> 00:31:58.680 more productive. And and you know you made one of 546 00:31:58.759 --> 00:32:02.759 you made the comment about what percentage of lines are 547 00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:09.599 written by AI versus by developers. I really dislike this 548 00:32:09.880 --> 00:32:15.559 measurement because from my experience, code lines are not created equal. 549 00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:21.680 There's a whole lot of boilerplate out there, and the 550 00:32:21.960 --> 00:32:30.279 actual quote unquote smart code is often a relatively limited 551 00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:35.680 percentage of the code that you're writing. So the LM 552 00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:39.759 allows me to focus on the code that I need 553 00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:45.440 to focus on, and even there it can kind of 554 00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:49.119 jumpstart the process, especially if it's APIs that I'm less 555 00:32:49.160 --> 00:32:53.480 familiar with. But ultimately the business logic is something that 556 00:32:53.640 --> 00:32:56.839 I really focus on myself. I don't trust the LM 557 00:32:56.960 --> 00:32:59.519 with the core business logic. I might let it do 558 00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:04.119 the first iteration, but I would never commit anything that 559 00:33:04.279 --> 00:33:05.720 I don't properly understand. 560 00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:12.960 Yeah, I completely agree. I think your experience lines up 561 00:33:13.319 --> 00:33:20.960 very very closely with my experience, right, And so, yeah, 562 00:33:21.640 --> 00:33:27.240 I had it right a whole bunch of stuff, just 563 00:33:27.319 --> 00:33:29.440 to give some examples of what I've used it for. 564 00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:34.200 So the scheduling, so I ran into some issues with 565 00:33:34.240 --> 00:33:37.079 schedule once it wasn't doing everything I wanted, and so 566 00:33:37.480 --> 00:33:40.599 I used AI to help me write the scheduling link 567 00:33:40.759 --> 00:33:44.680 on the top end dev's website, and you know, and 568 00:33:44.799 --> 00:33:46.599 so now I can add features to that that I 569 00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:48.839 don't get in the schedule once, which is what we've 570 00:33:48.839 --> 00:33:52.599 been using to schedule the the podcast episodes with guests. 571 00:33:52.640 --> 00:33:54.119 And so now we can just send people to a 572 00:33:54.200 --> 00:33:58.480 link on on our system and people can you know, 573 00:33:58.559 --> 00:33:59.480 get on our calendar. 574 00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:02.519 The yeah. 575 00:34:02.599 --> 00:34:04.920 But again, you know, it just it sped it up. 576 00:34:05.319 --> 00:34:07.880 I was doing stuff that was mostly fairly well understood. 577 00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:10.280 I didn't have to go look up the documentation on 578 00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:13.559 how to integrate with Google Calendar. I did have to 579 00:34:13.800 --> 00:34:17.239 you know, test it a bunch, and you know, fiddle 580 00:34:17.320 --> 00:34:20.280 with some stuff. But I'm pretty sure I got it 581 00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:22.320 done in less than half the time that it would 582 00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:24.000 have taken me to go and do all the research 583 00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:27.119 and figure how to write it myself. Another one is 584 00:34:27.880 --> 00:34:32.719 I've been working on in browser visual email editor right 585 00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:34.519 for a number of projects that I could use it 586 00:34:34.599 --> 00:34:37.719 on because I have a large enough email list now 587 00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:40.639 that it's costing me several hundred dollars a month to 588 00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:44.159 use a service to send the emails out to my list, 589 00:34:44.920 --> 00:34:46.480 and so I was like, hey, if I bring this 590 00:34:46.639 --> 00:34:49.239 in house, you know, I can save myself a big 591 00:34:49.320 --> 00:34:53.440 chunk of change and have it sent out through Postmark 592 00:34:55.000 --> 00:35:00.360 sending service instead of you know, active campaign and so again, Uh, 593 00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:00.960 if you. 594 00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:04.960 Could we discuss when that's an interests whether it's worth Yeah, 595 00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:09.320 that's an interesting observation, chock that I think that a 596 00:35:09.400 --> 00:35:15.199 lot of services out there are going to be facing 597 00:35:15.320 --> 00:35:22.360 competition from DIY using AI tooling to build a good 598 00:35:22.519 --> 00:35:23.679 enough alternative. 599 00:35:25.079 --> 00:35:28.079 Yeah, well, there's another tool out there that does the 600 00:35:28.199 --> 00:35:33.599 visual editing. It's called b free bee Free and I 601 00:35:33.760 --> 00:35:37.719 was looking at using them, but they their service to 602 00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:40.000 get all the features that I wanted, and their template 603 00:35:40.119 --> 00:35:46.599 library is like one thousand dollars a month, and you know, yeah, anyway, 604 00:35:46.760 --> 00:35:47.039 it just. 605 00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:49.639 Again and that's exactly my point. 606 00:35:50.679 --> 00:35:53.440 I could save myself twelve thousand dollars a year by 607 00:35:53.559 --> 00:35:55.519 sitting down and having AI help me write it. 608 00:35:55.639 --> 00:35:57.199 And I have a good enough solution. 609 00:35:57.039 --> 00:36:01.400 At this point exactly now. In the past, you either 610 00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:06.920 couldn't or wouldn't because it was it would just take 611 00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:09.199 you too much. Either you couldn't do it or it 612 00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:11.320 would just take you too much. Effort that it wasn't 613 00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:15.960 worth it. In these days, you say, hey, you know what, 614 00:36:16.280 --> 00:36:19.440 I'll give it a go, and there's a chance that 615 00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:21.719 you'll actually come up with a good enough solution. 616 00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:26.039 So I think the other thing is is it was 617 00:36:26.119 --> 00:36:31.639 one thousand dollars per application. And so yeah, sure, all 618 00:36:31.719 --> 00:36:35.480 of the top all of the channel Kitchen's hosting stuff 619 00:36:35.599 --> 00:36:38.320 is one application, but I have four other projects I 620 00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:42.039 want to use it on, and so I'm saving myself 621 00:36:42.119 --> 00:36:43.719 sixty thousand dollars. 622 00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:46.079 By having a help me write it. 623 00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:52.440 Yeah, and I think a lot of services out the 624 00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:57.639 existing services are going to be facing an uphill struggle 625 00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:02.320 trying to justify their value proposition going forward in the 626 00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:07.400 age of aie IF building. But the building a good 627 00:37:07.519 --> 00:37:11.159 enough alternative is is easy enough, you're gonna you're gonna 628 00:37:11.159 --> 00:37:11.760 have a problem. 629 00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:15.320 Well, the other thing that I've looked at with this, 630 00:37:15.960 --> 00:37:20.519 just from the business standpoint is I can sell and 631 00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:25.039 or license my builder. It costs me a whole lot 632 00:37:25.159 --> 00:37:28.199 less than that it costs them to build theirs to 633 00:37:28.440 --> 00:37:31.960 other people. And if I allow them to license it 634 00:37:32.079 --> 00:37:34.719 and then use my code as kind of a licensed 635 00:37:34.760 --> 00:37:38.000 open source as opposed to a black box, that you 636 00:37:38.119 --> 00:37:41.480 include into your thing, right, so it just you know, 637 00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:44.039 you you just pull the code in or pull it 638 00:37:44.119 --> 00:37:49.239 in as a library, and then you you know, you 639 00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:52.679 can use AI system similar to what I built in 640 00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:54.360 order to modify it to what you need. 641 00:37:56.679 --> 00:37:56.880 You know. 642 00:37:57.400 --> 00:37:59.440 Yeah, I think it creates a whole new market. 643 00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:03.360 So I wanted to bring up two more points before 644 00:38:03.639 --> 00:38:06.280 we end up going to picks. So first of all, 645 00:38:06.760 --> 00:38:10.519 you do need I'll give a concrete example of why, 646 00:38:11.239 --> 00:38:15.599 as a serious developer, just vibe coding is not good 647 00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:18.960 enough from my perspective in a lot of cases. I 648 00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:21.400 might have given this example before in one of our 649 00:38:21.480 --> 00:38:24.920 other show episodes on the topic of vibe coding, and 650 00:38:25.159 --> 00:38:29.159 that's one of our developers where I work was implementing 651 00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:33.360 a certain bit a certain migration code, and it would 652 00:38:33.480 --> 00:38:38.320 go to the database and get the data, all the 653 00:38:38.440 --> 00:38:41.079 data out of a certain table which could potentially be 654 00:38:41.360 --> 00:38:46.679 very large, and would process it in a certain way 655 00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:49.360 and write it back because it was part of a migration, 656 00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:53.840 as I said. And now, the first implementation they created, 657 00:38:55.719 --> 00:38:59.920 just was created using AI, by the way, was really 658 00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:02.880 naive in that it read the entire table into memory. 659 00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:09.159 And that's obviously problematic when the table can be huge. 660 00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:13.119 So when I did a code review on that code, 661 00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:18.760 I said, look, this is not good enough because it 662 00:39:19.159 --> 00:39:23.400 might cause a problem. And the problem was that they 663 00:39:23.480 --> 00:39:26.679 had the AI writing the code, and they played with 664 00:39:26.800 --> 00:39:29.239 the code manually, but they didn't play with a large 665 00:39:29.320 --> 00:39:33.079 enough table, so they never they never thought about this 666 00:39:33.239 --> 00:39:41.400 potential problem. So then they actually had the AI fixed 667 00:39:41.480 --> 00:39:44.239 that code. So they told the AI, hey, do this 668 00:39:44.440 --> 00:39:49.159 in pages rather than read the entire thing into memory. 669 00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:52.599 And AI said, sure, that's a great idea. Obviously we 670 00:39:52.679 --> 00:39:55.519 should do that, you know, like a AI usually says 671 00:39:55.559 --> 00:39:58.880 in these types of scenarios. And then the AI wrote 672 00:39:58.920 --> 00:40:02.599 recursive code. That did it. Why did it recursively? I 673 00:40:02.760 --> 00:40:06.400 have no idea, but obviously with recursive code it means 674 00:40:06.440 --> 00:40:09.639 that again, if if the table was big enough, it 675 00:40:09.679 --> 00:40:13.119 would blow up the stack, even though it was using pages, 676 00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:19.880 because JavaScript does not have tail recursion. And you know, 677 00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:22.599 so I reviewed the code again and I said, hey, 678 00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:26.960 not only isn't this code so very readable, because recursion 679 00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:30.119 in JavaScript is not necessarily super readable to all developers, 680 00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:33.400 it's also has this problem that the stack will blow up, 681 00:40:33.960 --> 00:40:37.960 so make it not you know, built the loop as 682 00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:41.400 a straight on four or wild loop or whatever, and 683 00:40:41.599 --> 00:40:44.679 so they had so they told Cursor to do it again, 684 00:40:44.760 --> 00:40:47.039 and Curser again said, hey, you know, that's a great idea. 685 00:40:47.159 --> 00:40:50.320 We should obviously do that, and they did it, only 686 00:40:50.440 --> 00:40:52.679 they now implemented it as a loop within a loop 687 00:40:52.719 --> 00:40:55.599 within a loop, like an end to the power of three. 688 00:40:57.039 --> 00:41:00.440 At that point, I've had I basically had enough, and 689 00:41:00.760 --> 00:41:06.480 rewrote it by hand and pushed the fix in, obviously 690 00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:11.960 making sure that it passed the tests. But it's funny 691 00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:16.880 seeing the limitations of quote unquote vibe coding in this way. 692 00:41:17.199 --> 00:41:19.320 So this was one story that I wanted to tell 693 00:41:19.719 --> 00:41:21.840 the other We kind of mentioned it at the beginning 694 00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:27.840 that AI is really attractive, almost seductive for testing and 695 00:41:27.960 --> 00:41:31.960 it's a super double edged sword. Now I don't do TDD, 696 00:41:32.599 --> 00:41:36.679 which means that I usually write tests after I write 697 00:41:36.760 --> 00:41:40.159 code rather than before. I always wanted to do TDD. 698 00:41:40.599 --> 00:41:44.119 My brain just doesn't work this way. We had Chayallen 699 00:41:44.280 --> 00:41:46.440 on the show, by the way, talking about TDD highly 700 00:41:46.519 --> 00:41:49.679 recommended his brain definitely does work this way, which may's 701 00:41:49.800 --> 00:41:52.960 maximum an amazing developer. That's not how I work. I 702 00:41:53.079 --> 00:41:56.639 just can't do it. So what ends up is I 703 00:41:57.119 --> 00:42:01.480 write code, I review the code, I play with the code, 704 00:42:01.639 --> 00:42:04.559 I single step to the code, and then I have 705 00:42:05.239 --> 00:42:07.840 the and then I write tests for the code, and 706 00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:11.480 and now I can have AI right tests for the code. 707 00:42:11.760 --> 00:42:14.840 And it turns out that AI is great at running 708 00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:18.400 writing tests for the code. The problem is that if 709 00:42:18.440 --> 00:42:20.679 you have a bug in your code, it will happily 710 00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:24.599 write tests for the code that pass for the bug. 711 00:42:26.519 --> 00:42:30.960 And even worse is when you then change the code 712 00:42:31.039 --> 00:42:34.440 for some reason. And it's so seductive to just tell 713 00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:37.800 the AI, gon't fix the test, so that my test 714 00:42:37.880 --> 00:42:42.079 will pass, and it will happily do. And again you 715 00:42:42.360 --> 00:42:44.679 introduce the bug and the tests were supposed to catch 716 00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:47.559 it bugs, and but you had the AI fix the test, 717 00:42:47.719 --> 00:42:52.519 and now the test pats again, so you have always 718 00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:56.119 passing tests which are effectively worthless tests. So that's a 719 00:42:56.159 --> 00:42:59.639 double edged sword of using AI to write tests. It's 720 00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:05.320 really really seductive, it's really it's something that AI can 721 00:43:05.400 --> 00:43:09.400 easily do, at least for JavaScript and the leading testing frameworks. 722 00:43:10.039 --> 00:43:15.159 And it's incredibly dangerous because it can nullify the whole 723 00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:16.599 benefit of having tests. 724 00:43:18.159 --> 00:43:21.360 Yeah, I completely agree where I use it, because I 725 00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:22.960 think you brought it up when I mentioned that I 726 00:43:23.400 --> 00:43:26.880 use it a lot to write the tests. But yeah, 727 00:43:27.559 --> 00:43:29.840 going back to what we were saying before, then I 728 00:43:29.960 --> 00:43:32.840 go through it and make sure that it's you know, 729 00:43:33.079 --> 00:43:35.440 it's doing what I needed to do. You know, that 730 00:43:35.559 --> 00:43:38.199 it's testing the stuff that's important. Sometimes it doesn't put 731 00:43:38.239 --> 00:43:41.039 stuff in that matters. Sometimes it puts stuff in and 732 00:43:41.119 --> 00:43:44.000 test stuff that I'm going, what are you even looking at? 733 00:43:44.679 --> 00:43:48.519 But again, it really gives me a lot of the structure. 734 00:43:48.639 --> 00:43:50.719 It sets up a lot of my test doubles, mocks 735 00:43:50.760 --> 00:43:51.840 the stubs. 736 00:43:52.360 --> 00:43:54.159 You know, it does a lot of the other things 737 00:43:54.199 --> 00:43:56.760 that I need for the test. 738 00:43:57.440 --> 00:44:00.440 And so it gets me usually ninety cent of the 739 00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:03.440 way there, and then I can approach it and say, okay, 740 00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:05.360 but this is the stuff. You know, now that I've 741 00:44:05.400 --> 00:44:08.000 got all this set up here that I actually care about, 742 00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:10.719 and so yeah, that I can just modify in the 743 00:44:11.039 --> 00:44:15.159 other stuff. Going back to your first example, though, one 744 00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:18.199 example that I wanted to share was when I was 745 00:44:18.239 --> 00:44:20.920 working on the calendar stuff. I wanted it to check 746 00:44:20.920 --> 00:44:23.119 a Google calendar and see if there were conflicts in 747 00:44:23.199 --> 00:44:25.920 the Google calendar for the time slots that people could 748 00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:29.679 schedule for the podcast or other appointments, and so you know, 749 00:44:29.840 --> 00:44:33.800 it followed a very logical process. It would figure out 750 00:44:33.840 --> 00:44:35.519 what all the time slots were, and then it would 751 00:44:35.599 --> 00:44:39.000 check if each time slot was free. So I had 752 00:44:39.239 --> 00:44:41.960 a half hour time slot, you know, between eight am 753 00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:44.559 and six pm, and so it would come up with 754 00:44:44.639 --> 00:44:47.960 four hundred and fifty time slots every day or every week, 755 00:44:48.320 --> 00:44:51.199 you know, for the next seven days. And so then 756 00:44:51.840 --> 00:44:54.679 it would go and it would say, hey, Google Calendar, 757 00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:57.079 is this slot free? Is this slot free? Is this 758 00:44:57.159 --> 00:44:59.559 slot free? And so it hit the Google Calendar API 759 00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:03.840 and fifty times. It was wicked slow, and it was 760 00:45:04.119 --> 00:45:06.880 very inefficient, and I, you know, so I had to 761 00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:09.199 go back in and say, okay, is there another API 762 00:45:09.320 --> 00:45:11.519 call we can make to just get the free and 763 00:45:11.599 --> 00:45:12.960 busy times for the entire weekend. 764 00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:15.280 It turns out there is for Google Calendar, and so 765 00:45:15.400 --> 00:45:17.960 then it was able to help me write the fix. 766 00:45:18.079 --> 00:45:20.599 But you know it, yeah, it really. 767 00:45:22.039 --> 00:45:24.719 You know, logically, it made sense why it chose to 768 00:45:24.800 --> 00:45:29.039 do it that way, but it doesn't consider everything. And so, 769 00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:32.719 you know, making four hundred and fifty API calls is 770 00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:35.800 probably going to get you on their knotty list if 771 00:45:35.840 --> 00:45:39.719 you're doing them that fast, and it's super inefficient. 772 00:45:40.239 --> 00:45:42.920 And so yeah, you know, just things like that. It 773 00:45:43.199 --> 00:45:45.039 does that kind of a thing all the time. And 774 00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:46.000 then the other thing that I. 775 00:45:46.039 --> 00:45:49.199 Found is again you know it it really likes try 776 00:45:49.480 --> 00:45:54.920 catch stuff or in Ruby the begin rescue, which is 777 00:45:55.000 --> 00:45:57.480 kind of the same thing, not exactly, but so then 778 00:45:57.519 --> 00:45:59.679 it just swallows your error's hohle, and it's like, why 779 00:45:59.719 --> 00:46:02.199 did you put a rescue in here? If it's not 780 00:46:02.639 --> 00:46:04.800 doing what it's supposed to do. I want it to 781 00:46:04.920 --> 00:46:08.719 blow up and tell me, and it doesn't. And so 782 00:46:09.440 --> 00:46:11.559 you just really have to keep in mind that it 783 00:46:11.719 --> 00:46:16.639 may have been trained on stuff that's not ideal, both 784 00:46:16.679 --> 00:46:19.119 in your tests and in your But I've also, like 785 00:46:19.239 --> 00:46:22.440 Dan said, I've had to write tests where it makes 786 00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:26.559 it pass when it shouldn't or you know, it makes 787 00:46:26.639 --> 00:46:29.920 it happy when and then then misses stuff because it 788 00:46:30.039 --> 00:46:31.719 just tests kind of the happy path and not the 789 00:46:31.800 --> 00:46:32.679 other stuff you care about. 790 00:46:33.400 --> 00:46:37.800 And you know a lot of projects have like chest 791 00:46:37.880 --> 00:46:43.440 covered thresholds, and AI almost essentially kills it the whole 792 00:46:43.559 --> 00:46:47.000 concept because it's so easy to tell AI, you know, 793 00:46:47.360 --> 00:46:50.599 just achieve eighty percent coverage for me, and it will 794 00:46:50.719 --> 00:46:54.199 do it with chunk yep yep. 795 00:46:54.280 --> 00:46:57.360 Absolutely So one thing that I wanted to get into 796 00:46:58.199 --> 00:47:04.320 before we wrap up, is I hear concerns that AI 797 00:47:04.800 --> 00:47:07.280 is part of the reason why people are having trouble 798 00:47:07.360 --> 00:47:11.840 finding jobs. I'm hearing concerns that as the models get 799 00:47:11.880 --> 00:47:14.880 better and it's able to write better code, that it's 800 00:47:14.960 --> 00:47:18.440 going to consume some of the jobs out there. What 801 00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:19.679 do you guys think about this? 802 00:47:23.199 --> 00:47:26.880 The thing I've been hearing, you know, reading, and I've 803 00:47:26.920 --> 00:47:31.079 talked to people in the industry, in other industries that 804 00:47:31.119 --> 00:47:35.360 are impacted AI, is that you don't see people hiring 805 00:47:35.440 --> 00:47:38.679 junior death so much anymore because they figure AI can 806 00:47:38.760 --> 00:47:40.559 handle a lot of this and you've got to be 807 00:47:40.599 --> 00:47:41.679 a quote unquote senior. 808 00:47:41.800 --> 00:47:42.960 However you define that term. 809 00:47:44.440 --> 00:47:47.199 They're not entirely wrong. They're not entirely right either. 810 00:47:48.039 --> 00:47:50.159 Jobs. I mean, that's just, you know, I don't have 811 00:47:50.199 --> 00:47:53.559 any numbers to back that up, but that's just I've 812 00:47:53.599 --> 00:47:54.800 been hearing that a lot lately. 813 00:47:56.840 --> 00:48:01.400 The same for me, and they're like you said, there 814 00:48:01.599 --> 00:48:05.440 is a certain amount of truth in that if I, 815 00:48:06.280 --> 00:48:12.280 as a senior developer, am able to be twice as productive, 816 00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:18.760 that means that, you know, if we are a really 817 00:48:18.880 --> 00:48:23.639 successful company, maybe we can do twice as much. But Alternatively, 818 00:48:23.960 --> 00:48:28.079 we could save on our expenses and achieve the same 819 00:48:28.159 --> 00:48:35.239 amount of throughput. But it's it's a problem. I mean, 820 00:48:35.320 --> 00:48:37.719 if there are if there are no juniors, who are 821 00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:43.840 going to be the seniors. Now you know, I'm on 822 00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:48.360 the I guess the tail end of my career in 823 00:48:48.440 --> 00:48:55.920 a sense, So I don't know. Maybe I'll be able 824 00:48:56.039 --> 00:49:03.400 to retire before before I swallows all the eventually, maybe, 825 00:49:04.079 --> 00:49:09.519 But look, first of all, what I've seen is we've 826 00:49:09.920 --> 00:49:14.679 kind of reached a certain wall, like I'm not seeing 827 00:49:14.800 --> 00:49:19.239 the AI. We saw a period of dramatic improvement, and 828 00:49:19.360 --> 00:49:22.719 it seems to be slowing down. We're still seeing improvements, 829 00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:26.320 but not at the same rate. It's more about the 830 00:49:26.440 --> 00:49:33.480 tools getting more refined rather than significantly better. Also, we 831 00:49:33.599 --> 00:49:37.760 are like one Chinese invasion of Taiwan away from this 832 00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:43.280 whole thing coming down like a house of cars. So 833 00:49:44.119 --> 00:49:47.159 I don't know. Now, you know, we're talking with people 834 00:49:47.199 --> 00:49:50.280 have been talking about self driving cars for decades, and 835 00:49:50.599 --> 00:49:52.719 you know, think about what that will do for the 836 00:49:52.840 --> 00:49:55.960 job market if and when that actually happens. And we 837 00:49:56.079 --> 00:49:59.119 are starting to kind of see it happen place in 838 00:49:59.239 --> 00:50:03.880 certain places. But if and when it does happen I mean, 839 00:50:04.039 --> 00:50:08.360 imagine all the taxi drivers, bus drivers, lorry drivers, truck 840 00:50:08.440 --> 00:50:11.280 drivers being out of the job, out of a job. 841 00:50:11.920 --> 00:50:13.719 You know, there are a lot more drivers, I think 842 00:50:13.800 --> 00:50:16.119 out there in the world, and developers. I don't know 843 00:50:16.199 --> 00:50:20.440 what to say, Like eventually it might happen, but when 844 00:50:20.480 --> 00:50:23.000 it does happen, that just means that I think AI 845 00:50:23.119 --> 00:50:30.880 took all the jobs anyway, and that's it. But but yeah, 846 00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:34.639 it is impacting the job market. But it's difficult for 847 00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:42.159 me to say whether the the difficult times that juniors 848 00:50:42.199 --> 00:50:46.639 are experiencing are because of AI or because of AI hype, 849 00:50:47.400 --> 00:50:50.480 or because of just the job market being what it 850 00:50:50.679 --> 00:50:52.360 is and things being cyclical. 851 00:50:54.039 --> 00:50:54.559 Yeah, so. 852 00:50:56.559 --> 00:50:58.119 I think I'm going to say some of the same 853 00:50:58.159 --> 00:51:03.239 things you're saying, Dan, But in a so I attribute 854 00:51:03.280 --> 00:51:06.280 at least some of the job market to the current economy. 855 00:51:07.320 --> 00:51:12.559 And you know, we we kind of had this downturn, 856 00:51:13.159 --> 00:51:17.760 you know, a year or so ago, you know, maybe 857 00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:22.960 a little longer ago. And so it because the job market. 858 00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:25.679 Has been different since COVID, and it's been you know, 859 00:51:26.320 --> 00:51:27.679 at least for the last while. 860 00:51:27.800 --> 00:51:30.159 It's it's it's been a little bit slow anyway. 861 00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:34.159 And so I see in some ways I see it 862 00:51:34.199 --> 00:51:36.039 coming back and in other ways I see it kind 863 00:51:36.079 --> 00:51:39.199 of staying where it is, And so I think there 864 00:51:39.400 --> 00:51:42.360 is some economic factor to it that has nothing to 865 00:51:42.400 --> 00:51:46.360 do with AI. That said, I do believe that there 866 00:51:46.480 --> 00:51:50.000 is some level of impact that AI does have and 867 00:51:50.159 --> 00:51:53.920 is going to have. And I think you guys both 868 00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:59.360 expressed this where, Yeah, if I'm running a company and 869 00:51:59.599 --> 00:52:05.320 my havelopers can be twice as efficient and I can maintain. 870 00:52:06.800 --> 00:52:08.719 A good market position. 871 00:52:10.519 --> 00:52:12.960 With half the workers and still get the work done, 872 00:52:13.039 --> 00:52:16.480 then yeah, it may be a consideration to you know, 873 00:52:16.840 --> 00:52:19.880 reduce my workforce or at least not replace people when 874 00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:25.679 they go. If you're in a highly competitive space, though, 875 00:52:26.400 --> 00:52:28.320 then if your people are more productive and you can 876 00:52:28.519 --> 00:52:31.840 afford to keep them on, then your strategic advantage is 877 00:52:31.920 --> 00:52:33.800 to figure out how to do it again so that 878 00:52:33.840 --> 00:52:37.239 they're twice is you know, they can double their capacity 879 00:52:37.280 --> 00:52:40.119 again and again and again to the point where you can, 880 00:52:40.480 --> 00:52:42.639 you know, overtake anybody ahead of you in the market 881 00:52:43.119 --> 00:52:44.719 and then continue to be competitive. 882 00:52:45.199 --> 00:52:51.639 And so I don't see it as an overall loss 883 00:52:51.800 --> 00:52:54.559 in jobs. I think it just depends on. 884 00:52:56.239 --> 00:52:58.639 Who's making the decision and why they're making the decision, 885 00:52:59.400 --> 00:53:01.440 and then the other piece of it, as far as 886 00:53:01.599 --> 00:53:07.199 juniors go, I think it presents both a challenge and 887 00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:11.599 an opportunity because if you're thinking about juniors in the 888 00:53:11.719 --> 00:53:14.360 sense that, hey, they're the people who kind of handle 889 00:53:14.440 --> 00:53:17.440 this level of task and we just kind of lean 890 00:53:17.559 --> 00:53:20.360 on them for that kind of a thing and that's 891 00:53:20.400 --> 00:53:25.079 all they do, then yeah, right, a lot of the 892 00:53:25.280 --> 00:53:28.719 AI LM stuff is going to handle a lot of 893 00:53:28.800 --> 00:53:29.360 those things. 894 00:53:30.239 --> 00:53:33.000 But and this is a big butt. 895 00:53:34.159 --> 00:53:38.599 The opportunity presented for juniors is also, in my opinion, 896 00:53:38.679 --> 00:53:41.599 a huge one because if you, as a junior, can 897 00:53:41.639 --> 00:53:44.719 figure out how to be productive on the level of 898 00:53:44.760 --> 00:53:47.519 a senior developer by using AI and using it as 899 00:53:48.000 --> 00:53:51.760 a learning tool and an opportunity to get stuff done, 900 00:53:52.159 --> 00:53:55.400 and you can begin to demonstrate that for potential employers, 901 00:53:55.760 --> 00:53:59.840 you have a much higher likelihood of getting a job. 902 00:54:00.159 --> 00:54:04.199 And some of these companies are going to be forward 903 00:54:04.239 --> 00:54:08.119 thinking enough to hire juniors or to hire interns, and 904 00:54:08.280 --> 00:54:11.119 so the opportunities are out there. They might be a 905 00:54:11.159 --> 00:54:13.519 little bit harder to find or might be a little 906 00:54:13.519 --> 00:54:18.199 bit less common, but this is the opportunity because I 907 00:54:18.199 --> 00:54:20.320 think a lot of folks just think, well, I went 908 00:54:20.360 --> 00:54:22.199 through the boot camp, and now I'm supposed to find 909 00:54:22.239 --> 00:54:24.000 a job or I just went through college and I'm 910 00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:26.519 supposed to find a job. And the reality is is 911 00:54:26.599 --> 00:54:28.920 there are a lot of opportunities that you have with 912 00:54:29.079 --> 00:54:32.280 AI where you can actually go out and make yourself, 913 00:54:33.679 --> 00:54:36.119 bring yourself to the top of that lower end market 914 00:54:36.719 --> 00:54:39.039 and then be able to find a position. And then 915 00:54:39.119 --> 00:54:41.760 the other thing I'm also seeing, and we talked a 916 00:54:41.800 --> 00:54:44.239 little bit about this, is go out and build your 917 00:54:44.280 --> 00:54:47.519 own thing, right, because you do have skills above and 918 00:54:47.639 --> 00:54:49.840 beyond kind of the business person that might try and 919 00:54:49.960 --> 00:54:52.760 vibe code something. You actually understand how some of the 920 00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:55.840 code works, and so you may be able to create 921 00:54:55.920 --> 00:54:58.920 an opportunity that is not a full time job like 922 00:54:59.000 --> 00:55:02.960 you thought you wanted, but there's actually some entrepreneurial or 923 00:55:03.000 --> 00:55:05.559 other opportunity that you can see out there. 924 00:55:05.639 --> 00:55:05.880 And so. 925 00:55:07.639 --> 00:55:09.880 I don't think it's hopeless for junior devs. 926 00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:10.800 I think the. 927 00:55:10.880 --> 00:55:13.199 Opportunity has just changed its shape and. 928 00:55:13.280 --> 00:55:15.960 Look, and so you have to be very aware of 929 00:55:16.199 --> 00:55:18.960 what's out there and what people actually want and then 930 00:55:19.039 --> 00:55:21.239 figure out how to have it. And you've got this 931 00:55:21.519 --> 00:55:25.320 amazing productivity and training tool in the AI LLMS that 932 00:55:25.440 --> 00:55:28.239 will help you pick this stuff up and move ahead. 933 00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:32.039 And so that is something that I just really want 934 00:55:32.079 --> 00:55:34.280 to encourage people. It's not a lost cause. 935 00:55:35.119 --> 00:55:38.000 I totally agree. It's kind of a disruption period, and 936 00:55:38.119 --> 00:55:43.599 disruptions represents risks and opportunities. It's like, you know, like 937 00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:48.119 when everybody kind of moved to react, it doesn't mean 938 00:55:48.199 --> 00:55:52.000 that if you finished a boot camp before react you're 939 00:55:52.199 --> 00:55:54.960 out of luck. In fact, you might have an advantage 940 00:55:55.400 --> 00:55:58.800 because you would know stuff that other people who have 941 00:55:59.320 --> 00:56:06.239 just learned realc don't know. Likewise, if you're now entering 942 00:56:06.280 --> 00:56:09.280 the market and you come in with if you learn 943 00:56:09.400 --> 00:56:14.000 how to make good use of these AI tools and 944 00:56:14.239 --> 00:56:18.559 to leverage their capabilities and be aware of their pitfalls 945 00:56:19.199 --> 00:56:22.000 and and learn how to make the best use of them, 946 00:56:22.559 --> 00:56:26.119 you probably have an advantage over most of the people 947 00:56:26.199 --> 00:56:26.719 in the market. 948 00:56:29.360 --> 00:56:29.559 Yeah. 949 00:56:33.960 --> 00:56:40.800 Yeah, well that's I mean that, That's been my take. 950 00:56:40.960 --> 00:56:43.320 I've been trying to encourage people. I haven't done a 951 00:56:43.360 --> 00:56:46.159 good job of it because I'm not talking about this 952 00:56:46.239 --> 00:56:52.400 as often as I should. But yeah, I think, I yeah, 953 00:56:52.599 --> 00:56:55.599 I think the opportunities out there are tremendous. 954 00:56:55.679 --> 00:56:55.920 And so. 955 00:56:58.920 --> 00:57:00.400 All right, well let's go ahead do picks. 956 00:57:00.559 --> 00:57:04.400 We're at an hour now and honestly I need to 957 00:57:04.400 --> 00:57:11.079 get back to work here soon anyway, you both so, yeah, Dan, 958 00:57:11.159 --> 00:57:12.559 do you want to start us off with picks? 959 00:57:13.880 --> 00:57:18.480 Sure? So my first pick is that this has been 960 00:57:19.960 --> 00:57:24.280 a really emotional time for me. For those of you 961 00:57:24.519 --> 00:57:29.199 don't know, all the living is really hostages. The remaining 962 00:57:29.280 --> 00:57:31.960 living is rarely hostages that were building held by Hamas 963 00:57:32.079 --> 00:57:38.280 for over two years have finally been released. Everybody here 964 00:57:38.360 --> 00:57:43.400 in Israel celebrating for days from yes I just tweeted 965 00:57:43.800 --> 00:57:45.960 like how I feel today on that day and put 966 00:57:46.000 --> 00:57:51.000 a link to here comes the Sun. It's like we've 967 00:57:51.039 --> 00:57:53.840 been walking with this weight on our shoulders for the 968 00:57:54.039 --> 00:57:56.199 entire time. Like you go out with friends, you have 969 00:57:56.280 --> 00:57:58.559 a good time, but in the back of your mind 970 00:57:58.679 --> 00:58:04.280 you constantly have that that nagging feeling of guilt of 971 00:58:05.679 --> 00:58:09.760 of you know, they're suffering, and I'm enjoying myself, and 972 00:58:10.840 --> 00:58:14.400 and what can I do? And and and so it 973 00:58:14.599 --> 00:58:19.480 it kind of lifts this huge weight off of your shoulders. Uh. 974 00:58:19.880 --> 00:58:24.639 And especially when you realize how they've been tortured in 975 00:58:24.760 --> 00:58:30.639 these tunnels during the past, especially the the the last year, 976 00:58:31.599 --> 00:58:35.599 you know, essentially from the beginning, but especially the last 977 00:58:35.719 --> 00:58:38.280 years has been especially hard. Some of them were kept 978 00:58:38.639 --> 00:58:42.559 literally chained in cages throughout the entire time. They were 979 00:58:43.280 --> 00:58:47.880 starved almost to death. It's they they were tortured, burned, 980 00:58:48.320 --> 00:58:55.079 it's it's awful. But they're released. It looks like hopefully 981 00:58:55.199 --> 00:58:58.559 they'll all be able to make a recovery, So, you know, 982 00:59:00.239 --> 00:59:03.440 I you know, it's it's such a huge relief. It's 983 00:59:03.559 --> 00:59:07.119 it's difficult to explain. Also the fact that it looks 984 00:59:07.280 --> 00:59:13.360 like the fighting is hopefully coming to an end, hopefully 985 00:59:13.440 --> 00:59:18.519 in a way that will guarantee the safety and eventual 986 00:59:18.599 --> 00:59:26.519 prosperity of everybody in this region. Unfortunately, I'm not yet 987 00:59:27.119 --> 00:59:31.639 sufficiently optimistic in the long run, but at least people 988 00:59:31.719 --> 00:59:34.199 are not dying on a daily on a daily basis 989 00:59:34.320 --> 00:59:37.840 right now. Although Hamas it seems, are turning their guns 990 00:59:37.880 --> 00:59:42.159 on their own population and executing Palestinians in the street. 991 00:59:42.960 --> 00:59:45.639 So then that's pretty horrific. But you know, nobody in 992 00:59:45.679 --> 00:59:48.039 the West seems to be caring about that. But you know, 993 00:59:48.280 --> 00:59:53.119 it is what it is. So so my first pick 994 00:59:53.280 --> 00:59:55.880 is about that. One last thing in that context is 995 00:59:56.760 --> 01:00:01.639 there are still the bodies of dead hostages. I know 996 01:00:01.800 --> 01:00:06.920 that some people don't like the concept seems weird to them. 997 01:00:07.000 --> 01:00:10.280 How can somebody be in like, how can a dead 998 01:00:10.360 --> 01:00:13.199 person be a hostage? But it's really important for the 999 01:00:13.280 --> 01:00:17.480 families to achieve closure, and I really hope that all 1000 01:00:17.519 --> 01:00:20.880 the bodies will be recovered during the upcoming days and 1001 01:00:21.000 --> 01:00:24.880 will really put this dark episode to rest. So that 1002 01:00:24.960 --> 01:00:28.360 would be my first pick by far. My second pick 1003 01:00:28.559 --> 01:00:32.280 is that I've just come back this week from two 1004 01:00:32.320 --> 01:00:36.559 and a half week vacation in Tuscany, Italy, which was amazing. 1005 01:00:37.599 --> 01:00:40.599 I highly recommend taking vacations. We talked about it in 1006 01:00:40.719 --> 01:00:43.840 the past that people don't take enough vacations. From my experience, 1007 01:00:43.960 --> 01:00:48.480 especially people in the US, seem not to take enough vacations. 1008 01:00:49.559 --> 01:00:52.239 People in Europe and Israel are kind of mandated by 1009 01:00:52.360 --> 01:00:55.119 law to take a certain amount of vacation, and I 1010 01:00:55.239 --> 01:00:57.639 understand the situation in the US is kind of different 1011 01:00:57.679 --> 01:01:02.039 in this regard, and there's like this whole like also 1012 01:01:02.280 --> 01:01:05.480 cultural thing where you know, people are expected to take 1013 01:01:05.519 --> 01:01:09.239 a certain amount of vacation, and again, it's really important 1014 01:01:09.280 --> 01:01:11.880 for your health and well being. Like I said, we 1015 01:01:11.960 --> 01:01:17.039 went to Italy, mainly Tuscany. We love Italy, we love 1016 01:01:17.159 --> 01:01:21.639 going there. It's a lovely place with lovely people, lovely scenery. 1017 01:01:21.800 --> 01:01:27.280 I tweeted out or exed out some of some pictures 1018 01:01:27.360 --> 01:01:30.559 from our trip. You can take a look. It's really 1019 01:01:30.599 --> 01:01:34.000 beautiful there. So I highly recommend visiting if you can 1020 01:01:34.280 --> 01:01:39.320 make it, if you can afford it. And I oh yeah. 1021 01:01:39.480 --> 01:01:43.440 One last technical pick, something that we probably will want 1022 01:01:43.480 --> 01:01:47.840 to have a show about. Remis ree was announced. They 1023 01:01:47.960 --> 01:01:50.880 had a conference about it. There's also been a conference 1024 01:01:50.880 --> 01:01:55.199 about React itself React which some news came up, which 1025 01:01:55.360 --> 01:01:59.239 probably have an episode about that. But those who are 1026 01:01:59.360 --> 01:02:03.960 mostly lot of small things, remix three is one big thing. 1027 01:02:04.599 --> 01:02:08.760 They basically kind of decided to ditch React. So if 1028 01:02:08.840 --> 01:02:12.760 remix was was a meta framework built on top of React, 1029 01:02:13.360 --> 01:02:16.559 as in remix one and in Remix two, Remix three 1030 01:02:16.880 --> 01:02:21.599 is a reimagining at the framework level. They're building effectively 1031 01:02:21.639 --> 01:02:25.719 an alternative to React. It's really interesting. They have some 1032 01:02:25.880 --> 01:02:31.400 interesting concepts. I will put a link to the relevant 1033 01:02:32.519 --> 01:02:35.960 uh part of their video in the show notes Uh. 1034 01:02:36.119 --> 01:02:40.159 There's also an interesting alternative you can you should watch that. 1035 01:02:40.800 --> 01:02:45.280 You can also in addition, watch Ryan Carniato we've had 1036 01:02:45.360 --> 01:02:50.840 often as a guest, the creator of Solid actually responding 1037 01:02:50.920 --> 01:02:56.039 in real time, like watching the remix video and reacting 1038 01:02:56.519 --> 01:02:59.519 in real time to what he's stay seeing. I consider 1039 01:02:59.679 --> 01:03:03.000 him to be probably the most knowledgeable person about frameworks 1040 01:03:03.079 --> 01:03:07.000 in general, so it's really interesting to see his analysis 1041 01:03:07.639 --> 01:03:11.280 and his response to what they're doing. Obviously, he's doing 1042 01:03:11.360 --> 01:03:16.360 it from a certain position. He's the creator of solid 1043 01:03:16.719 --> 01:03:19.440 so he does have his own thoughts and ideas about 1044 01:03:19.480 --> 01:03:22.920 how frameworks should work. But it's still really really interesting 1045 01:03:23.679 --> 01:03:30.119 to watch his response. I've already reached out to Ryan 1046 01:03:30.239 --> 01:03:33.159 Florence to come on this show to talk about Remis three. 1047 01:03:33.679 --> 01:03:36.400 He was positive about it. I'll remind him now that 1048 01:03:36.679 --> 01:03:38.760 it's how he basically said that he wanted to wait 1049 01:03:38.800 --> 01:03:41.280 till it's out. Now it's out, I'll try to reach 1050 01:03:41.320 --> 01:03:44.079 out again. Hopefully he'll be willing to come on the show. 1051 01:03:44.679 --> 01:03:49.800 You know, it looks like super interesting stuff, a lot 1052 01:03:49.880 --> 01:03:53.559 of interesting concept and ideas. I've not yet played with 1053 01:03:53.679 --> 01:03:55.840 it myself, but it looks really interesting. 1054 01:03:57.320 --> 01:03:58.119 Yeah, definitely. 1055 01:03:59.039 --> 01:04:01.760 I want to just back into a couple of your 1056 01:04:01.800 --> 01:04:05.320 picks here. There are a lot of things that are 1057 01:04:05.400 --> 01:04:09.079 said about the conflict in Israel. I'm not going to 1058 01:04:09.159 --> 01:04:12.360 wait into the politics. I just think it's a tremendous 1059 01:04:12.440 --> 01:04:18.679 thing when hostages come home, and so you know, regardless 1060 01:04:18.679 --> 01:04:24.360 of value you feel about Israel, Israeli government, Gaza, Hamas, 1061 01:04:24.719 --> 01:04:26.760 any of the rest of it, the fact that these 1062 01:04:26.800 --> 01:04:29.639 people are being reunited with their families is just it's 1063 01:04:29.760 --> 01:04:31.639 such a big, big, big thing. 1064 01:04:32.320 --> 01:04:35.760 And I will almost almost totally agree with what you 1065 01:04:35.880 --> 01:04:39.280 said in the sense that I agree that regardless of 1066 01:04:39.320 --> 01:04:43.599 what you think about Israeli government, about Israel itself, about Gaza, 1067 01:04:43.760 --> 01:04:49.039 about Palestinians and rights and whatever, anybody who has positive 1068 01:04:49.119 --> 01:04:53.960 thoughts on Hamas is from my perspective is you know, 1069 01:04:54.440 --> 01:04:59.280 is beyond the PA it's there and the neolistic fundamentalists 1070 01:04:59.280 --> 01:05:04.639 GI organization literally murdering and torturing their own people. Even 1071 01:05:05.480 --> 01:05:09.559 you know, I can't say anything I'm good about Hamas right, 1072 01:05:09.840 --> 01:05:12.320 everything else, I totally agree with you. Yeah. 1073 01:05:12.440 --> 01:05:16.760 My point is is, you know, people people say and 1074 01:05:16.800 --> 01:05:18.880 hear a lot of things about the conflict. I agree 1075 01:05:18.920 --> 01:05:21.280 with you on Hamas. I think if you think, if 1076 01:05:21.719 --> 01:05:24.880 you don't think they're a terrorist organization that does ugly 1077 01:05:24.960 --> 01:05:27.880 things to their own people and to other people, go 1078 01:05:28.039 --> 01:05:32.880 do your homework because you're you're you're totally missing who 1079 01:05:32.960 --> 01:05:35.599 these people are. But the reality is is I'm just 1080 01:05:35.639 --> 01:05:37.760 delighted that these people get to go home to their families, 1081 01:05:38.320 --> 01:05:39.280 and thank you. 1082 01:05:39.559 --> 01:05:45.440 Again for the for the the people who have died 1083 01:05:45.800 --> 01:05:46.960 who were being held hostage. 1084 01:05:47.000 --> 01:05:49.559 Same thing, right, I mean, I imagine if it was 1085 01:05:49.639 --> 01:05:53.280 one of my family members, I this is what I 1086 01:05:53.320 --> 01:05:55.039 would want, is I would want them to be able 1087 01:05:55.079 --> 01:05:56.440 to come home one way or the other. 1088 01:05:56.960 --> 01:05:57.239 And so. 1089 01:05:59.280 --> 01:06:02.880 Yeah, anyway, so that that's definitely a happy, happy theme. 1090 01:06:03.679 --> 01:06:04.280 Thank you, Chuck. 1091 01:06:05.239 --> 01:06:09.400 So anyway, Yeah, I just I just wanted to express 1092 01:06:09.480 --> 01:06:13.079 that because it's I feel like a lot of these 1093 01:06:13.119 --> 01:06:16.159 things they feel far away, but they they do kind 1094 01:06:16.199 --> 01:06:20.119 of impact us all, and it's all part of being 1095 01:06:20.239 --> 01:06:23.480 humans is recognizing that these are things that shouldn't happen 1096 01:06:23.519 --> 01:06:25.079 to other people or to us. 1097 01:06:25.920 --> 01:06:28.880 Some of the hostages were actually American citizens, by the way. 1098 01:06:28.880 --> 01:06:33.360 Yes some of them were. All right, Steve, what are 1099 01:06:33.360 --> 01:06:33.800 your picks? 1100 01:06:35.559 --> 01:06:37.679 I could give a whole Die Die tribe on what 1101 01:06:37.760 --> 01:06:40.159 you guys were just talking about, but I'll stick with 1102 01:06:40.239 --> 01:06:41.360 the dad jokes for the day. 1103 01:06:41.679 --> 01:06:43.840 Bring a little humor to things. 1104 01:06:44.880 --> 01:06:48.000 So I went to the park the other day and 1105 01:06:48.039 --> 01:06:50.840 I got kicked out for because I was organizing the 1106 01:06:50.960 --> 01:06:54.320 squirrels by height. It turns out that people get mad 1107 01:06:54.360 --> 01:06:55.559 if you start criticizing. 1108 01:06:58.119 --> 01:06:58.760 That's a good one. 1109 01:06:59.079 --> 01:07:02.199 Yes, And I know this next one is antithical to 1110 01:07:02.280 --> 01:07:04.559 my usual opening, but I'll tell it anyway. 1111 01:07:05.679 --> 01:07:07.079 Do you know why good. 1112 01:07:06.960 --> 01:07:10.480 Looking people are busier than average looking people. I'll tell 1113 01:07:10.480 --> 01:07:16.920 you later. I'm pretty busy right now. And finally went 1114 01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:19.760 in to open a new bank account the other day 1115 01:07:19.800 --> 01:07:23.599 and I said that the banker, can I open a 1116 01:07:23.719 --> 01:07:26.239 joint bank account? I know that's not a marijuana joke. 1117 01:07:27.320 --> 01:07:29.519 He said, sure, with who I said, I'm not picky 1118 01:07:29.599 --> 01:07:31.000 anywhere any rich person will do. 1119 01:07:34.119 --> 01:07:36.760 There was this stand up. There was this comedy show 1120 01:07:36.800 --> 01:07:39.760 in Israeli TV where it was about this young couple 1121 01:07:39.880 --> 01:07:42.880 who are starting their life together and they're kind of 1122 01:07:42.920 --> 01:07:45.400 the they move in to live together, they're starting to 1123 01:07:45.480 --> 01:07:49.280 think about marriage, and at one point they decide to 1124 01:07:49.360 --> 01:07:53.199 have a joint bank account. So you know, they sit 1125 01:07:53.320 --> 01:07:56.599 at the bank with the banker at the bank and 1126 01:07:56.760 --> 01:07:59.480 the guy goes it tells the guy, oh, I see 1127 01:07:59.519 --> 01:08:02.880 that you've been saving a lot and you've you've you've 1128 01:08:03.000 --> 01:08:07.760 saved like thirty thousand dollars. That's really great start through life. 1129 01:08:08.400 --> 01:08:11.760 And now together both of you have twenty five thousand dollars. 1130 01:08:16.800 --> 01:08:20.000 Oh nice, and then he you know, his eyes. 1131 01:08:19.880 --> 01:08:22.479 Open up like saucers. It's really funny. 1132 01:08:22.920 --> 01:08:26.199 But anyway, Yeah, there was a remember there was a 1133 01:08:27.359 --> 01:08:29.359 Sawther story about a basketball player in the NBA. This 1134 01:08:29.479 --> 01:08:34.960 is yusual ago when Michael Jordan was playing, and he 1135 01:08:35.079 --> 01:08:37.479 was a teammate of Michael Jordan's on the Bulls and 1136 01:08:37.600 --> 01:08:40.079 he was a lesser known player, not anybody whose name 1137 01:08:40.159 --> 01:08:43.479 you would know, and he had scored like I guess 1138 01:08:43.520 --> 01:08:45.640 the game winning basket or some big basket, but he 1139 01:08:45.720 --> 01:08:46.079 only had. 1140 01:08:46.039 --> 01:08:46.880 Like two or three points. 1141 01:08:46.920 --> 01:08:49.279 And he said, yeah, between Michael and I, we had 1142 01:08:49.279 --> 01:08:50.319 thirty five points tonight. 1143 01:08:53.000 --> 01:08:59.119 Right, all right, I'm gonna jump in with some picks. So, uh, 1144 01:09:00.199 --> 01:09:02.079 I usually start with a board game pick, so I'm 1145 01:09:02.079 --> 01:09:05.960 gonna do that. It's actually a card game. It's called Infiltrators, 1146 01:09:09.079 --> 01:09:14.000 and it's Infiltrators spelled like traders, like people who betray 1147 01:09:14.159 --> 01:09:16.760 other people R I T O R. 1148 01:09:17.760 --> 01:09:17.960 Yeah. 1149 01:09:18.600 --> 01:09:18.920 And so. 1150 01:09:20.840 --> 01:09:27.039 Anyway, the way that it works is you basically have 1151 01:09:27.279 --> 01:09:33.439 like Mafia. Anyway, it's got that kind of a feel 1152 01:09:33.479 --> 01:09:35.760 to it. It's got like Japanese characters on it. So 1153 01:09:35.880 --> 01:09:40.079 maybe they're yakuza or something. But anyway, so you have yeah, 1154 01:09:40.159 --> 01:09:42.359 but it's it's a card. It's a color and a number, 1155 01:09:42.359 --> 01:09:45.199 and it's face down in front of in front of 1156 01:09:45.279 --> 01:09:48.600 each of the players has one, and then you have 1157 01:09:48.840 --> 01:09:53.000 cards in your hand, and you can pass your cards 1158 01:09:53.039 --> 01:09:57.720 in your hand to other players and then they orient 1159 01:09:57.840 --> 01:09:59.640 the card to tell you whether or not it has 1160 01:09:59.680 --> 01:10:02.439 anything in common with the card that's face down in 1161 01:10:02.479 --> 01:10:03.960 front of them. So you know what's in front of you, 1162 01:10:04.079 --> 01:10:06.199 you don't know what's in front of everyone else. And 1163 01:10:06.279 --> 01:10:11.479 then once you figure out what the card is, then 1164 01:10:11.600 --> 01:10:14.159 you and it actually has a little gun prop that 1165 01:10:14.880 --> 01:10:17.119 eventually we just quit using because we were just like, 1166 01:10:17.239 --> 01:10:21.079 you have the right, but you're supposed to execute the mobster. 1167 01:10:22.640 --> 01:10:25.399 But yeah, we just point out you have the you know, 1168 01:10:25.560 --> 01:10:29.159 the red fifteen or whatever, and so by process of 1169 01:10:29.199 --> 01:10:32.199 elimination you're able to figure out what the other players 1170 01:10:32.239 --> 01:10:35.000 have in front of them. You can also place the 1171 01:10:35.079 --> 01:10:37.279 card and orient it the same way on the card 1172 01:10:37.319 --> 01:10:39.520 in front of you. The difference is is if you 1173 01:10:40.439 --> 01:10:43.520 put the card in front of somebody else, then you 1174 01:10:43.640 --> 01:10:46.760 can draw a card from the draw pile. And if 1175 01:10:46.840 --> 01:10:48.960 you place it in front of yourself, then you can't 1176 01:10:49.680 --> 01:10:54.239 and there are ways to get cards, and you can't 1177 01:10:54.439 --> 01:10:56.399 place it in front of somebody else if there are 1178 01:10:56.439 --> 01:10:59.560 no cards left to draw, and you you know, you 1179 01:10:59.680 --> 01:11:02.119 get so many tries in the round before you're done, 1180 01:11:02.680 --> 01:11:06.479 before you lose, and so you're trying to catch all 1181 01:11:06.520 --> 01:11:07.920 the traders before times up. 1182 01:11:09.319 --> 01:11:11.279 I think we play it in like twenty minutes a 1183 01:11:11.319 --> 01:11:11.840 half hour. 1184 01:11:13.079 --> 01:11:15.479 It does have a little thing to keep track of, 1185 01:11:15.640 --> 01:11:19.479 so you can like cross off colors and numbers that 1186 01:11:19.680 --> 01:11:21.359 sit in front of each of the cards that you're 1187 01:11:21.359 --> 01:11:24.680 trying to guess, and obviously you can't tell anybody. 1188 01:11:24.319 --> 01:11:24.760 What you have. 1189 01:11:27.920 --> 01:11:30.239 But anyway, it was a fun game, really fun game. 1190 01:11:30.880 --> 01:11:33.600 I'm going to be teaching at the Game Convention in 1191 01:11:33.640 --> 01:11:36.399 a few weeks and this is one of the games 1192 01:11:36.439 --> 01:11:39.520 we're teaching, and yeah, anyway, it's super fun. So Infiltrators 1193 01:11:39.520 --> 01:11:42.560 came out in twenty twenty three. Board game Geek has 1194 01:11:42.640 --> 01:11:46.520 a weight of two point one one, so it's it's 1195 01:11:46.840 --> 01:11:51.439 it's complicated enough to be interesting but very approachable for 1196 01:11:51.520 --> 01:11:54.399 casual players. You can play two to five players. We 1197 01:11:54.520 --> 01:11:58.800 usually play it with five players, and it's ages ten 1198 01:11:58.920 --> 01:12:05.399 plus and I think that's probably about right. So infiltrators. Fun, fun, 1199 01:12:05.479 --> 01:12:09.439 fun game. So I'm going to pick that and then 1200 01:12:10.920 --> 01:12:13.600 the other pick that I have. And this is something 1201 01:12:13.640 --> 01:12:17.399 that really has affected me lately, and I just I 1202 01:12:17.479 --> 01:12:20.359 haven't been on the show since Charlie Kirk was assassinated. 1203 01:12:21.159 --> 01:12:25.439 And for those of you who know much about me 1204 01:12:25.560 --> 01:12:29.079 and where I'm at, Charlie Kirk was assassinated at Utah 1205 01:12:29.159 --> 01:12:32.720 Valley University, which is literally like fifteen twenty minutes from here. 1206 01:12:34.239 --> 01:12:37.279 I know a lot of people who are present when 1207 01:12:37.520 --> 01:12:43.600 the shooting occurred, and there are a lot of aspects 1208 01:12:43.680 --> 01:12:48.640 to this that affect the communities that I associate with locally. 1209 01:12:49.680 --> 01:12:52.880 And you know, going back to this idea of you know, 1210 01:12:53.079 --> 01:12:57.880 what we should or shouldn't see happen, nobody should be 1211 01:12:59.239 --> 01:13:01.720 killed or have violence occurred to them because of what 1212 01:13:01.840 --> 01:13:02.319 they believe. 1213 01:13:03.159 --> 01:13:03.479 And so. 1214 01:13:06.159 --> 01:13:09.319 I guess what I'm really just asking people to do is, 1215 01:13:10.800 --> 01:13:15.800 you know, if you're harassing people because of what they believe, 1216 01:13:16.159 --> 01:13:19.920 or you know, thinking that people deserve to have terrible 1217 01:13:19.960 --> 01:13:21.640 things happen to them because of what they believe. 1218 01:13:23.560 --> 01:13:27.039 Think again, right, what we're all doing our best, We're 1219 01:13:27.079 --> 01:13:28.359 all trying to figure this stuff out. 1220 01:13:28.399 --> 01:13:30.800 We're all trying to help each other live better at 1221 01:13:30.880 --> 01:13:33.720 least I hope so, and I feel like that's what 1222 01:13:33.840 --> 01:13:34.920 Charlie Kirk was trying to do. 1223 01:13:35.640 --> 01:13:41.239 And so yeah, anyway, it's. 1224 01:13:40.039 --> 01:13:42.439 Really made me think about, you know, where I'm at 1225 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:45.520 with my life and what I'm doing and what i 1226 01:13:45.600 --> 01:13:47.560 want to accomplish and what I'm willing to stand for. 1227 01:13:48.359 --> 01:13:50.840 And I hope people will kind of take that away 1228 01:13:50.920 --> 01:13:52.920 too and take a minute to really figure out who 1229 01:13:53.000 --> 01:13:55.680 you are and who you want to be, because at 1230 01:13:55.720 --> 01:13:57.520 the end of the day, and I think this was 1231 01:13:57.560 --> 01:14:01.239 part of the message that Charlie Kirk had was yes, 1232 01:14:01.319 --> 01:14:03.000 it matters what you do, but a lot of it 1233 01:14:03.159 --> 01:14:06.800 matters who you're becoming and what where that leads you 1234 01:14:06.920 --> 01:14:10.680 and what you do. And so anyway, I just wanted 1235 01:14:10.720 --> 01:14:12.079 to acknowledge him on the show. 1236 01:14:13.600 --> 01:14:13.880 Again. 1237 01:14:13.960 --> 01:14:16.960 You know, I try and not bring the politics into 1238 01:14:17.039 --> 01:14:19.920 things too heavily, and so I'm not going to go 1239 01:14:20.000 --> 01:14:21.600 into his political leanings and things. 1240 01:14:21.640 --> 01:14:27.119 But yeah, at the end of the day, it you know, 1241 01:14:27.239 --> 01:14:27.840 go watch. 1242 01:14:27.680 --> 01:14:30.920 The memorial for that they had for him, you know, 1243 01:14:31.119 --> 01:14:33.079 kind of go see what he was about a little bit, 1244 01:14:33.880 --> 01:14:38.079 and then yeah, evaluate where you're at, what you're standing for, 1245 01:14:38.279 --> 01:14:43.600 and what the ideas are that you espouse and then 1246 01:14:44.479 --> 01:14:46.680 have a little compassion for people that maybe think different 1247 01:14:46.680 --> 01:14:46.920 from you. 1248 01:14:49.800 --> 01:14:53.800 For sure, that's that's an amazing message and I totally concur. 1249 01:14:54.439 --> 01:14:58.279 All right, well, I think we're uh, that's everything, so 1250 01:14:58.319 --> 01:15:00.359 we'll go ahead and wrap up until next time, folks 1251 01:15:01.079 --> 01:15:02.760 max out hodios. 1252 01:15:04.399 --> 01:15:06.359 Hmmm.