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<v Speaker 1>Hey everyone, Andrew here, I've recently come to the conclusion

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<v Speaker 1>that I don't have a great reason for running two

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<v Speaker 1>separate podcasts of this time, and so I'm going to

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<v Speaker 1>start bringing content from the Fellowship podcast over here, and

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<v Speaker 1>so aside from the exclusive and ad free patron Feed,

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<v Speaker 1>this is going to be the only place to find

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<v Speaker 1>new Mythic Mind content for the time being. Now, I

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<v Speaker 1>do have some ideas for the other show in the future,

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<v Speaker 1>and so don't delete the Fellowship podcast from your library,

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<v Speaker 1>but know that you should not expect anything to be

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<v Speaker 1>shown up there for the foreseeable future. Everything will be

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<v Speaker 1>coming in right here now. For now, I'm going to

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<v Speaker 1>start posting our past patron chats over here while I

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<v Speaker 1>work on some other things, such as the talking book

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<v Speaker 1>that I'm currently writing and the talking course that's starting

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<v Speaker 1>up in January. Now, I know that many of you

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<v Speaker 1>have not heard these Fellowship chats yet, and so they'll

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<v Speaker 1>be new for you. And if you have listened to them,

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<v Speaker 1>well here they are again. I enjoy the re listen.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to start this transition by providing weekly postings

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<v Speaker 1>of our chats on the Poetic Eda to catch up

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<v Speaker 1>to the new content. In the series when it arrives,

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<v Speaker 1>probably at the end of this month, and then whenever

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<v Speaker 1>there are gaps in weekly uploads, I'll post more content

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<v Speaker 1>over here for the foreseeable future until everything gs moved

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<v Speaker 1>over now, because I'm just dropping the entire Fellowship episodes

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<v Speaker 1>over here, I want to go ahead right now and

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<v Speaker 1>thank my patrons who make possible so many of the

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<v Speaker 1>things that I'm currently doing, and so many thank you

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<v Speaker 1>to all of you. And by name the Tier two

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<v Speaker 1>patrons and higher, and that's Mark Aaron Evie, who's our

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<v Speaker 1>latest Tier three patron, And please let me know if

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not saying your name correctly. I want to make

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<v Speaker 1>sure that I get that right. Paul William, Aaron, Andrew

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<v Speaker 1>g Andrew, m Arturo, Brandon, Christopher, Emmy, Ian, Jeremiah, Joscelyn, Josh,

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<v Speaker 1>Joshua Landon, Matthew, Paul, Sarah and Steele. You all help

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<v Speaker 1>me to keep on the road. And if you're not

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<v Speaker 1>a patron, then you can join me as well and

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<v Speaker 1>get some cool perks along the way. At Tier one

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<v Speaker 1>that's five dollars a month. You get Discord access and

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<v Speaker 1>the Patron podcast feed that includes all Mythic mind episodes,

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<v Speaker 1>including some exclusives, and all of that is going to

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<v Speaker 1>be add free for you through the Patreon podcast feed.

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<v Speaker 1>At the second tier, which is ten dollars a month,

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<v Speaker 1>you also get access to all content from the fiction

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<v Speaker 1>and Philosophy of CS Lewis course, which is available as

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<v Speaker 1>videos to watch as well as through the Patreon podcast

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<v Speaker 1>feed to listen to on the go. And there's also

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<v Speaker 1>some other exclusive content involved in that tier as well.

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<v Speaker 1>At the third tier, you get to join the live

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<v Speaker 1>Lord of the Rings course that begins in January. And

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<v Speaker 1>so go ahead and head over to patreon dot com

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<v Speaker 1>slash Mythic Mind, or you can click the link in

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<v Speaker 1>the show notes. And by the way, I recommend that

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<v Speaker 1>you do not do that through the Patreon app. Don't

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<v Speaker 1>sign up through the Patreon app because when you do so,

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<v Speaker 1>Apple hikes the price a little bit. And so make

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<v Speaker 1>sure that you subscribe through the browser on your phone

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<v Speaker 1>or on your computer. And now let's go ahead and

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<v Speaker 1>get to our first edit chat. Hello, and welcome to

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<v Speaker 1>the Mythic Mind Fellowship podcast, which is a platform for

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<v Speaker 1>giving a voice to our patron. My name is Andrew Snyder,

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<v Speaker 1>and I am the host of the show. As well

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<v Speaker 1>as the Mythic Mind Legacy podcast, and I warmly welcome

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<v Speaker 1>you to join us around our heart. First of all,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to start posting my interviews to YouTube, and

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<v Speaker 1>so if you're watching the video of this, they know

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<v Speaker 1>that this will cut to the actual video of the

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<v Speaker 1>conversation once I finish this intro. This is the first

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<v Speaker 1>conversation that our fellowship is having on the poetic Eeda,

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<v Speaker 1>which is one of our chief sources of information on

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<v Speaker 1>Norse mythology and legends. Now, to my knowledge, we're all

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<v Speaker 1>amateurs here regarding this particular collection of texts. I believe

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<v Speaker 1>that all of us are reading it or have just

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<v Speaker 1>finished reading it for this purpose. But Mythic Mind patrons

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<v Speaker 1>tend to generally be drawn to this kind of material,

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<v Speaker 1>as the name suggests, and so although we don't have

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<v Speaker 1>any particular expertise here, I believe that we are off

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<v Speaker 1>to a good start in providing some important and fun

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<v Speaker 1>conversations on this material that's so fascinating and that is

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<v Speaker 1>really foundational to some of the rather important minds of

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<v Speaker 1>our time, people like C. S. Lewis and J. R.

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<v Speaker 1>Tolkien and obviously beyond. Today we're going to be discussing

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<v Speaker 1>the first two sections of the poetic Eda, the Vospa

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<v Speaker 1>and the Havamal, and I really hope that you enjoy

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<v Speaker 1>this even a fraction as much as I do. All Right,

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<v Speaker 1>so welcome back to the latest patron chat as we

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<v Speaker 1>begin our series and talking about the poetic Eda, which

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<v Speaker 1>is one of the main sources of information we have

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<v Speaker 1>about Norse myths and legends. Now, none of us here

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<v Speaker 1>are experts by any means on this material. We're reading

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<v Speaker 1>it for the first time, or we've read it for

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<v Speaker 1>the first time for this purpose, or maybe even you

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<v Speaker 1>haven't read it at all. You're just here along for

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<v Speaker 1>the ride. And so the purpose of this is really

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<v Speaker 1>just to be fellow travelers in these uncharted waters and

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<v Speaker 1>see what glories we can uncover. But before we get

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<v Speaker 1>into the conversation, I'd like to just for everyone to

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<v Speaker 1>introduce yourself and so everybody knows exactly who it is

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<v Speaker 1>that we're listening to, and we'll start with Thomas, who

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<v Speaker 1>of course is a recurring guest. But you can remind

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<v Speaker 1>us briefly of who you are and what you have

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<v Speaker 1>going on.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, yeah, so I'm sure your listeners are tired of

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<v Speaker 2>hearing about me because I've been on so many times.

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<v Speaker 2>But I am a children's book author, a freelance writer,

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<v Speaker 2>and a podcaster. I've got more stuff going on right

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<v Speaker 2>now than I think I'm able to juggle all at once,

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<v Speaker 2>but that's fine, although I am looking forward to next

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<v Speaker 2>year the publication in February of my first children's book,

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<v Speaker 2>which is a biography of Nicholas Steno, who was a

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<v Speaker 2>Catholic priest and also a scientist in the seventeenth century.

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<v Speaker 2>He did a lot of pioneering work in geology, and

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<v Speaker 2>I have adapted his story for middle graders, and so

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<v Speaker 2>I'm really excited about that. I'm also a huge Tolkien fan,

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<v Speaker 2>so I'm really happy to be discussing one of the

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<v Speaker 2>sources of his great mythology.

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<v Speaker 1>Good, wonderful, wonderful. Josh, tell us little bit about yourself.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so I'm Josh. I'm funny enough. Actually, I'm an

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<v Speaker 3>accountant by day and by night I am well, not

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<v Speaker 3>just by night, but all around. I am a husband

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<v Speaker 3>and a father of two. I'm also a graduate student

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<v Speaker 3>in a Great Books program at Memoria College. Right now,

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<v Speaker 3>I'm also a fan of Tolkien. I'm also reading this

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<v Speaker 3>for the first time. Definitely noticing a lot of naming

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<v Speaker 3>conventions already and influenced there. But yeah, I'm just excited

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<v Speaker 3>to be all for the ride.

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<v Speaker 1>Good, fantastic, Amanda, tell us a little bit about yourself.

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<v Speaker 4>So I am really just a housewife these days. I

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<v Speaker 4>used to work in medicine, but I got out of that,

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<v Speaker 4>and I've always had an interest in philosophy and theology,

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<v Speaker 4>and I just I'm really just here for the ride.

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<v Speaker 4>Interesting to note my husband, I just finished the Return

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<v Speaker 4>of the King movie this evening, so that was.

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<v Speaker 1>Fun, good, good, And there's nothing just about that vocation. Uh,

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<v Speaker 1>definitely a good vacation my and my wife was also

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<v Speaker 1>in medicine before she before she was able to stay home.

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<v Speaker 1>So definitely appreciate everything you have done in what you

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<v Speaker 1>do already.

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<v Speaker 4>That's wonderful, that's great to hear. I feel like I'm

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<v Speaker 4>a loner in.

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<v Speaker 1>This so no, well, we're definitely glad that you're here.

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<v Speaker 1>So we are here to talk about the first couple

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<v Speaker 1>sections of the poetic edit today, and so that is

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<v Speaker 1>the Voluspa and the humoval. Now that these both of

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<v Speaker 1>these are difficult texts to just jump into and walk

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<v Speaker 1>away with the clear idea of exactly what's going on,

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<v Speaker 1>but at the same time, and we can get the

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<v Speaker 1>basic structure here. But I think it's gonna be helpful

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<v Speaker 1>for everyone, especially those of you who are not familiar

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<v Speaker 1>with his text, to get a basic outline of this

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<v Speaker 1>first section that we'll be taking a look at. And

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<v Speaker 1>so I'm just going to read the summary that provided

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<v Speaker 1>in the Larrington translation published by the Oxford Press, Oxford

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<v Speaker 1>University Press, and so that way we have a sense

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<v Speaker 1>of the general story we're looking at, and then we'll

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<v Speaker 1>just jump around to whatever it has stood out to

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<v Speaker 1>us in our reading. Right, So this the account begins

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<v Speaker 1>with the creation of the earth. Then time is created,

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<v Speaker 1>the gods build temples and enjoy a golden age until

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<v Speaker 1>they are disrupted by three girls from giant Land. This

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<v Speaker 1>somehow leads to the creation of the dwarfs, which, by

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<v Speaker 1>the way, note it's a pretty good demonstration of the

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<v Speaker 1>density in the kind of difficulty he worked with the

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<v Speaker 1>text that even our translator here says somehow this legislation

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<v Speaker 1>of the dwarfs, it's not super clear exactly how that happened,

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<v Speaker 1>but anyways, so this somehow leads to the creation of

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<v Speaker 1>the dwarfs, Humanity is created and the fates arrive. Now

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<v Speaker 1>history begins. A mysterious female manifests herself among the Asir,

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<v Speaker 1>which is here the main group of Norse gods, a

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<v Speaker 1>woman well versed in magic. As a consequence, the Asir

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<v Speaker 1>find themselves at war with the van Year, which is

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<v Speaker 1>another group of gods. Peace is concluded and the gods

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<v Speaker 1>have to repair damage to Asgard. A giant offers to

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<v Speaker 1>rebuild the walls in a very short space of time

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<v Speaker 1>in exchange for the Sun. The Moon and Frey of

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<v Speaker 1>the gods agree, thinking the task impossible, but the Builder

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<v Speaker 1>nearly succeeds, and Thor has to destroy him, breaking the

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<v Speaker 1>god's promises of safe conduct. Then we reach the present,

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<v Speaker 1>which Odin questioning the Cirrus about what is to come.

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<v Speaker 1>The doom of the gods is signaled by the death

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<v Speaker 1>of Balder and its consequences, the end of the world

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<v Speaker 1>by images of punishment and social collapse. Ragnarok approaches the

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<v Speaker 1>world ash Yegrassil trembles in the giant's advance. Odin is

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<v Speaker 1>killed by the wolf Fenrier, Freyer by Stewart. Thor and

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<v Speaker 1>the Midguard Serpent kill each other, Odin is avenged by

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<v Speaker 1>his son Vidar, and the world disappears in fire, and

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<v Speaker 1>the verses which follow the earth rises anew with the sea,

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<v Speaker 1>and some of the is here, including Balder, return to

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<v Speaker 1>live peacefully together. In the final verse, the sinister dragon

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<v Speaker 1>Needhog is seen and the Sierus sinks out of her trance,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's where the story ends. And so Odin is

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<v Speaker 1>basically calling forth this cirrus who has died. And you know,

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<v Speaker 1>there's a sense in the Northern mythos that they have

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<v Speaker 1>more wisdom than the living, because well they've been removed

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<v Speaker 1>from the tumults of mortal affairs and so they're keyed

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<v Speaker 1>into a greater wisdom. And so he calls forth this

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<v Speaker 1>dead cirrus to get a sense of things that are

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<v Speaker 1>to come. And through this conversation, this really this kind

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<v Speaker 1>of interrogation, we get the full gambit of the Norse narrative,

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<v Speaker 1>really going from creation that the earliest point that we

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<v Speaker 1>have all the way up to Ragnarok and beyond. And

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<v Speaker 1>so there's a whole lot that's covered within this material.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm interested in seeing what stood out to you,

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<v Speaker 1>Tom Sair Josh, anything that you want to throw out there.

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<v Speaker 1>It can be from anywhere in this just kind of

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<v Speaker 1>wherever you want to go with this.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it has to be the names of all the dwarves.

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<v Speaker 2>For me, I was like, okay, so the names of

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<v Speaker 2>all the dwarves in the Hobbit were essentially all taken

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<v Speaker 2>wholesale from the Blisfa. I mean I knew that they

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<v Speaker 2>were from Norse mythology. I didn't know that they would

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<v Speaker 2>all be in this one text.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we get this list of dwarves.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean things like Wallin and Bomber and Thorin, and

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<v Speaker 1>there's an Oaken Shield and even Gandolf, who is a

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<v Speaker 1>dwarf in this text. But obviously Tolkien changes that a bit.

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, so he just lifts all of these dwarf

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<v Speaker 1>and names then applies to his story.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean that makes me feel better as a writer

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<v Speaker 2>because it means that it's okay to just lift names

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<v Speaker 2>from stuff and you're not being uncreative by doing that.

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<v Speaker 3>So yeah, yeah, do you know anything about what the

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<v Speaker 3>exact symbolism is of the igdrasil tree standing above like

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<v Speaker 3>the urds? Well, like, do you know anything about that specifically?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah? So I'm not super familiar with the urds Well,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's tied to the fates, and so it is

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<v Speaker 1>something about time, something about destiny, something about kind of

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<v Speaker 1>utmost reality, and obviously you address seal. It's the world

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<v Speaker 1>tree that holds the realms together. It's basically the it's

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes the structure of the universe. Essentially, it is all

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<v Speaker 1>in this great tree. And so I assume that the

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<v Speaker 1>urds Well is something like the I mean, the waters

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<v Speaker 1>that feed into the cosmic tree, and so I assume

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<v Speaker 1>that it has something to do. It's the life force

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<v Speaker 1>of the tree itself that these fates are tuned into,

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<v Speaker 1>and so they're able to see where this life force

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<v Speaker 1>of the tree is going to move into the various branches,

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<v Speaker 1>to the point where they know not only the fates

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<v Speaker 1>of men, but they know the fates of gods as well.

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<v Speaker 1>They know the fates of all things that live within

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<v Speaker 1>and upon this tree. And so that's the best I

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<v Speaker 1>can get a you know, not having great knowledge beyond

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<v Speaker 1>just looking at and thinking about it. That's kind of

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<v Speaker 1>what I'm putting together.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, for sure, that makes sense to me.

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<v Speaker 2>I was struck by the Three Fates about how and

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<v Speaker 2>especially in the way you're describing them, Andrew about how

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<v Speaker 2>like in some way they're almost like above the gods

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<v Speaker 2>themselves in the sense that they know everything about the

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<v Speaker 2>future and about the fate of the universe and the

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<v Speaker 2>Acr and Vanier themselves. So it's like in a way,

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<v Speaker 2>and I don't know if they're older because they kind

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<v Speaker 2>of just appear in the text, but I was. I

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<v Speaker 2>found them to be sort of more intriguing figgures than

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<v Speaker 2>the main gods because of the sort of mystery surrounding them.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so, yeah, you're right, it's really not clear where

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<v Speaker 1>they come from. I mean it it talks about this

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<v Speaker 1>urge well and then it says from there come girls.

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<v Speaker 1>Now does that mean they're like born out of the

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<v Speaker 1>well or do just mean like that's where they live

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<v Speaker 1>and that's where they're from. It's not super clear to

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<v Speaker 1>me just from this text alone. But yeah, we definitely

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<v Speaker 1>do see that the gods as well as mortals are

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<v Speaker 1>subject to fate. And I do know just from reading

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<v Speaker 1>this as well as the Proseta, that very often the

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<v Speaker 1>gods are trying to thwart fate. You know, they get

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<v Speaker 1>some kind of revelation about what's going to happen and

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<v Speaker 1>so they go out of their way to try to

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<v Speaker 1>avoid their doom, but of course in so doing they

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<v Speaker 1>end up bringing it about. We see this and I'm

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<v Speaker 1>sure we'll talk a little bit about Bulber and perhaps

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit as that comes up a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>later on in this section, when there's this revelation that

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<v Speaker 1>Balder's going to die, and so they go out of

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<v Speaker 1>their way to prevent it, and in so doing they

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<v Speaker 1>leave room for the one weakness that's going to kill him.

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<v Speaker 2>And I.

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<v Speaker 1>Definitely recognize that the idea of fate, you know, plays

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<v Speaker 1>a very important role really for a lot of pagan literature,

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<v Speaker 1>but especially within the Northern those they do. Fate is

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<v Speaker 1>so important when and this is seen in a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of the way that they do their storytelling, when spoilers

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<v Speaker 1>are not really an issue. You know, they'll tell you

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<v Speaker 1>ahead of time that somebody's about to die, and then

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<v Speaker 1>they'll go and tell you how they die. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>they give you the conclusion before you actually get there.

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<v Speaker 1>And we see this in Beowolf a lot, which you

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<v Speaker 1>know that's operating in the Anglo Saxons, but still we're

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<v Speaker 1>still within the same region, same basic culture, and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>when you read Beowulf, and it'll tell you that he's

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<v Speaker 1>going to have victory before he has victory, and then

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<v Speaker 1>it's going to tell you basically as soon as the

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<v Speaker 1>dragon gets introduced, it's going to tell you that this

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<v Speaker 1>dragon is going to kill him. And then the rest

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<v Speaker 1>of the story is the playing out of how that happens.

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<v Speaker 1>And so, for Northern storytelling, and I assume even just

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<v Speaker 1>northern life, there's a profound sense of fate and so

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<v Speaker 1>the issue is not really what's going to happen, but

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<v Speaker 1>the issue is how are we going to relate to

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<v Speaker 1>the fate that we can't control, right, because you know,

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<v Speaker 1>as mortals, we all have the fate of mortality. We

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<v Speaker 1>all have the fate of death. That's what Tolkien says

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<v Speaker 1>about Beowulf, that that Beowulf is not a heroic lay

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<v Speaker 1>per se. That there's a reason why Beowulf didn't have

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<v Speaker 1>any inmeshed loyalties, he didn't get married, he didn't have kids,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's because simply being a mortal was tragedy enough,

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<v Speaker 1>and part of his hero's journey was simply relating himself

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<v Speaker 1>to his mortality. And so it's not so much about

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<v Speaker 1>what's going to happen, but it's about how do you

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<v Speaker 1>relate yourself to the fate that you can't control. And

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<v Speaker 1>that's actually something I really appreciate about the Northern myths

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<v Speaker 1>and legends that there's not a big focus on like

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<v Speaker 1>human freedom to shape time. Things are going to happen

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<v Speaker 1>the way that they're going to happen, and so that

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<v Speaker 1>reorience freedom to deciding, as Gandalf says, right, we decide

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<v Speaker 1>basically what we're going to do with the time that's

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<v Speaker 1>given to us. Recognizing the time is given to us,

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<v Speaker 1>we don't get to create it.

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<v Speaker 4>So just a thought just thinking about Nourse and Vikings

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<v Speaker 4>just historically and all the like the chaos that they

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<v Speaker 4>kind of kind of endured and the suffering really and

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<v Speaker 4>that suffering kind of gives a person insight, right, So

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<v Speaker 4>it's fine. It's interesting what you're saying, Andrew, because for

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<v Speaker 4>all of the aspects of like Viking history and bloodshed,

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<v Speaker 4>there are kind of silver linings to that which you

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<v Speaker 4>can see in Bale Wolf and in this text as well,

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<v Speaker 4>just because it's like that suffering kind of gives you

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<v Speaker 4>that introspection that maybe you may not have otherwise.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean these are people who you know, they

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<v Speaker 1>were constantly under threat of you know, being attacked by

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<v Speaker 1>neighboring tribes, by foreign people's people who are always struggling

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<v Speaker 1>just to survive the winter, or you know, attacks by

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<v Speaker 1>wild animals. These are people who couldn't help but to

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<v Speaker 1>be acquainted with the reality of death, which is something

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<v Speaker 1>that you know, we try to hide ourselves from because

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<v Speaker 1>we can to a certain degree more so than that

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<v Speaker 1>they were able to.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, eventually we all have to face mortality, We

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<v Speaker 1>all have to face any number of sufferings that might

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<v Speaker 1>come our way. But given are just the world in

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<v Speaker 1>which we live, it's lot easier to hide ourselves from

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<v Speaker 1>those things for longer periods of time, to the point

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<v Speaker 1>where we're not really comfortable talking about death. We're not

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<v Speaker 1>really comfortable talking about suffering because as much as we can,

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<v Speaker 1>we push it away. And when we do talk about

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<v Speaker 1>something like death, we use euphemisms, right, we talk about

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<v Speaker 1>like passing away, or we'll use any kind of language

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<v Speaker 1>to soften the reality of what we're actually dealing with.

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<v Speaker 1>Whereas you know, you read again, Baiolf is fresh on

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<v Speaker 1>my mind because it's the northern text I'm most familiar

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<v Speaker 1>with and I teach on it now on a regular basis.

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<v Speaker 1>But what we see there is that, you know, the

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<v Speaker 1>story of Beowulf is book ended on the beginning at

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<v Speaker 1>the end by great funerals, first by Shield Chafing, and

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<v Speaker 1>then you've got Beowulf at the end. And in both

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<v Speaker 1>of those great funerals you see people who are willing

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<v Speaker 1>to deal with death in that they do sorrow, they

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<v Speaker 1>lament passionately, but not as people without hope. You see

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<v Speaker 1>a sense of gratitude for life because they are aware

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<v Speaker 1>of death, and so death doesn't come to them as

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<v Speaker 1>something strange. It is something that they can't help but

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<v Speaker 1>to incorporate into their manner of life. And I think

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<v Speaker 1>that there's something good about that. I think there's something

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<v Speaker 1>that we can recover from that.

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<v Speaker 2>I've seen a lot of those themes in a current

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<v Speaker 2>day adaptation of this material, because I watched my younger

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<v Speaker 2>brother play through God of War Ragnarok, which focuses on

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<v Speaker 2>these characters. And in the story of that video game,

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<v Speaker 2>which is a loose adaptation of this material, the Acier,

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<v Speaker 2>especially Odin, are trying to come to grips with the

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<v Speaker 2>fact that even as God's they're mortal, they can be killed.

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<v Speaker 2>And Odin's big driving the thing that's motivating him throughout

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<v Speaker 2>the game is I want to know what happens to

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<v Speaker 2>me after I die.

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<v Speaker 5>Because he doesn't know. The Acier don't know what.

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<v Speaker 2>Happens to them after they die, and it terrifies them,

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<v Speaker 2>and they and so that they're not doing what you

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<v Speaker 2>just described Andrew, like like being having gratitude for life.

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<v Speaker 2>Instead they're doing everything to try and hold on to

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<v Speaker 2>life as long as possible, stave off death, or to

383
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<v Speaker 2>plumb the mysteries of the afterlife to discover what actually

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<v Speaker 2>happens to them, because they're like, well, when humans die,

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<v Speaker 2>they come to us in Valhalla? Is there anything for

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<v Speaker 2>us when we die? And I just think that it

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<v Speaker 2>was interesting that the writers of that game have enough,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, familiarity with the material that they are able

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<v Speaker 2>to continue to explore that that theme of mortality and

390
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<v Speaker 2>death which was which was so close to to Northern

391
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<v Speaker 2>people and informed their whole you know, cosmology and mythic cycle.

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<v Speaker 1>And of course we see that very idea play out

393
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<v Speaker 1>in Tolkien's Legendaria with the elves who don't really know

394
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<v Speaker 1>what happens to them in the end, when Arda is remade,

395
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<v Speaker 1>when Arta is destroyed, there's this question mark as to

396
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<v Speaker 1>what actually becomes of them. You know, are they so

397
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<v Speaker 1>tied with Arta that they will simply cease to be?

398
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<v Speaker 1>And this is why mortality is seen as the gift

399
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<v Speaker 1>of a luvatar to mortal men, because when you know,

400
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<v Speaker 1>when we die, and even in Tolkien's world, which is

401
00:22:53.559 --> 00:22:58.880
<v Speaker 1>supposed to be congruent with Christian theology, you know, he

402
00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:01.039
<v Speaker 1>leaves that when we die, we leave the circles of

403
00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:03.519
<v Speaker 1>this world and we essentially go to where God is.

404
00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:07.440
<v Speaker 1>That that's the fate of mortals. But whereas the the elves,

405
00:23:07.480 --> 00:23:09.880
<v Speaker 1>who are kind of more natural in the sense of

406
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:13.279
<v Speaker 1>being embedded within nature, there's this question mark groarding what

407
00:23:13.319 --> 00:23:15.359
<v Speaker 1>actually happens to them. And this is when we see

408
00:23:15.400 --> 00:23:20.640
<v Speaker 1>that the death that mortals, that that humans experience, actually

409
00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:26.119
<v Speaker 1>is a gift when seen in the right light. Whereas yeah,

410
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<v Speaker 1>to bring it back into specifically the the seer to

411
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<v Speaker 1>the Northern mythos, I mean this, this whole Volspa is

412
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<v Speaker 1>odin basically trying to get a better sense of what's

413
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<v Speaker 1>going to happen so he can avoid rock and rock right,

414
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<v Speaker 1>so he can avoid death, but that's not how fate works.

415
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<v Speaker 3>Do you ever see that, Like it seems like something

416
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<v Speaker 3>I've noticed from like the Greeks and the Romans and

417
00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:53.839
<v Speaker 3>like even the various medieval cultures, is this concept that

418
00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:57.000
<v Speaker 3>there is a there's so much more of like just

419
00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:00.599
<v Speaker 3>an everyday reality to death that they seem to be

420
00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:02.640
<v Speaker 3>aware of. Do you think that's really just like a

421
00:24:02.680 --> 00:24:07.480
<v Speaker 3>modern and postmodern thing to be extremely uncomfortable and try

422
00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:12.200
<v Speaker 3>to avoid the thought of death like just regularly. Like

423
00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:15.319
<v Speaker 3>I just kind of think, like, you know, in a

424
00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:19.440
<v Speaker 3>world that's plagued with nihilism, in a sense of course,

425
00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:21.920
<v Speaker 3>you one want to think about death because there's no hope.

426
00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:25.799
<v Speaker 3>But on the other hand, maybe people also don't even

427
00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:27.880
<v Speaker 3>it's not even like much of a reality to them

428
00:24:27.880 --> 00:24:32.319
<v Speaker 3>because they're so there's so much there's like so much comfort,

429
00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:37.680
<v Speaker 3>there's so much pleasure and distraction surrounding them. It's kind

430
00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:39.240
<v Speaker 3>of like I thought I had that, Like I feel

431
00:24:39.240 --> 00:24:42.880
<v Speaker 3>like I'm always blown away by how much these different

432
00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:46.440
<v Speaker 3>cultures were seemingly just like so comfortable with death, you know,

433
00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:47.920
<v Speaker 3>Like I don't think of like the Stoics with like

434
00:24:47.960 --> 00:24:49.920
<v Speaker 3>Momento Mary right where it's like that was just like

435
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:53.880
<v Speaker 3>a regular everyday practice. And I'm like, I couldn't imagine

436
00:24:53.920 --> 00:24:55.640
<v Speaker 3>like every day just being like, yeah, I might just

437
00:24:55.759 --> 00:24:58.359
<v Speaker 3>die in my sleep tonight and not wake up tomorrow, right,

438
00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:01.720
<v Speaker 3>Like that's an interest disciplined to have in a sense.

439
00:25:01.799 --> 00:25:04.480
<v Speaker 3>But yeah, I don't know if that was like a

440
00:25:05.359 --> 00:25:08.079
<v Speaker 3>like a thing in like Enlightenment and early modernism, but

441
00:25:08.119 --> 00:25:11.920
<v Speaker 3>it certainly seems like that's a massive, massive shift in

442
00:25:11.960 --> 00:25:14.559
<v Speaker 3>the twentieth century, at least compared to any of these

443
00:25:14.599 --> 00:25:18.039
<v Speaker 3>ancient medieval cultures.

444
00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:22.400
<v Speaker 4>Well, I would say that that's very true. And you know,

445
00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:25.680
<v Speaker 4>without some suffering, you can't have a proper understanding of

446
00:25:25.759 --> 00:25:34.759
<v Speaker 4>joy and not a theologian, but so said Paul. So

447
00:25:35.079 --> 00:25:37.599
<v Speaker 4>it's just it's very interesting, yes, that we live in

448
00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:40.359
<v Speaker 4>this world now where we have so much comfort, which

449
00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:43.880
<v Speaker 4>was something that we strived for for so long, that

450
00:25:43.960 --> 00:25:47.079
<v Speaker 4>we have actually kind of created our own misery to

451
00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:50.440
<v Speaker 4>a certain extent. So I think it's really important that

452
00:25:50.519 --> 00:25:56.319
<v Speaker 4>we value aspects of what we might consider to be suffering,

453
00:25:57.400 --> 00:26:01.839
<v Speaker 4>that we may need to sort of put ourselves through

454
00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:07.079
<v Speaker 4>just just to be able to receive the gift of

455
00:26:07.240 --> 00:26:12.359
<v Speaker 4>joy and remember, you know, those hardships so that you

456
00:26:12.440 --> 00:26:17.559
<v Speaker 4>can you can be more thankful and feel the grace

457
00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:20.799
<v Speaker 4>of everything that you've been given.

458
00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:26.319
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I think it's worth considering that if you

459
00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:29.440
<v Speaker 1>go to the pre modern world, whether talking about the

460
00:26:29.480 --> 00:26:34.319
<v Speaker 1>medieval Christians or even the pre Christian paganism which you mentioned,

461
00:26:35.720 --> 00:26:40.440
<v Speaker 1>there's this prevailing idea that we live within a broader

462
00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:43.519
<v Speaker 1>reality and the path of wisdom, the path of honor,

463
00:26:43.559 --> 00:26:46.799
<v Speaker 1>path of glory, whatever goal is that we're looking for,

464
00:26:48.279 --> 00:26:53.799
<v Speaker 1>the the the right path involves placing ourselves in the

465
00:26:53.880 --> 00:26:57.680
<v Speaker 1>right position within the context that exists above and beyond us. Right.

466
00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:00.960
<v Speaker 1>And so whether we're looking for the Kingdom of God,

467
00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:05.000
<v Speaker 1>or whether we're looking to honor Odin the All Father

468
00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:08.799
<v Speaker 1>or whatever, we're looking for something beyond ourselves. And so

469
00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:11.759
<v Speaker 1>not only is there just simply the hope of afterlife,

470
00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:15.599
<v Speaker 1>some kind of you know, eternal place to go beyond death,

471
00:27:15.880 --> 00:27:18.440
<v Speaker 1>but also there's just this general sense that there is

472
00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:21.799
<v Speaker 1>a context beyond ourself, and there is comfort in placing

473
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:24.960
<v Speaker 1>ourselves within that context. Whereas you move into the later

474
00:27:25.119 --> 00:27:27.640
<v Speaker 1>modern period, into the postmodern era, where we find ourselves

475
00:27:27.640 --> 00:27:32.279
<v Speaker 1>now and the idea of authenticity is not so much

476
00:27:32.279 --> 00:27:35.839
<v Speaker 1>about finding our place in broader context it's about contextualizing

477
00:27:35.880 --> 00:27:38.799
<v Speaker 1>everything within ourselves. And once you do that, there's nowhere

478
00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:41.079
<v Speaker 1>to go that there's no hope you could possibly have,

479
00:27:41.319 --> 00:27:43.839
<v Speaker 1>because any hope you have is going to be entirely artificial.

480
00:27:44.039 --> 00:27:47.160
<v Speaker 1>It's something that you just, you know, willed into existence.

481
00:27:47.599 --> 00:27:51.319
<v Speaker 1>And at that point you have nothing but your own

482
00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:54.880
<v Speaker 1>illusions or delusions, nothing but your own dreams, is nothing

483
00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:57.279
<v Speaker 1>to hope for. And so all you could possibly do

484
00:27:57.480 --> 00:28:00.319
<v Speaker 1>is plug yourself into the matrix and not think about

485
00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:03.200
<v Speaker 1>these broader questions of reality. Just try to ignore them

486
00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:05.960
<v Speaker 1>as long as you possibly can, until you can't anymore.

487
00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:08.039
<v Speaker 1>And then I guess you die in despair and darkness,

488
00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:12.480
<v Speaker 1>or you know, like screwtape, what would have us?

489
00:28:12.519 --> 00:28:12.599
<v Speaker 2>Do?

490
00:28:13.000 --> 00:28:16.559
<v Speaker 1>You know? You just die comfortably in hospice care, never

491
00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:21.400
<v Speaker 1>actually thinking about mortality. You just fade into death. And

492
00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:26.279
<v Speaker 1>so I think that philosophically, theologically, we've lost so much.

493
00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:29.880
<v Speaker 1>And again not even I'm not even just saying we

494
00:28:29.960 --> 00:28:31.960
<v Speaker 1>have to go to I mean, obviously I think that

495
00:28:32.039 --> 00:28:35.200
<v Speaker 1>Christianity is true, and so I recommend the Christian answer

496
00:28:35.240 --> 00:28:38.279
<v Speaker 1>to this question, but I still feel comfortable saying and

497
00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:40.920
<v Speaker 1>Lewis and Tolkien would say the same thing. That even

498
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:43.240
<v Speaker 1>pre Christian paganism is at least better than what we

499
00:28:43.319 --> 00:28:49.119
<v Speaker 1>have now, because, as Lewis says, the pagan is in

500
00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:52.200
<v Speaker 1>any ways something like a pre Christian, and he's eminently

501
00:28:52.359 --> 00:28:56.880
<v Speaker 1>convertible because he at least believes in direction beyond yourself.

502
00:28:57.119 --> 00:28:59.079
<v Speaker 1>And that's a pretty good starting place. You can have

503
00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:02.880
<v Speaker 1>a conversation with that. But it's very difficult to offer

504
00:29:03.319 --> 00:29:07.480
<v Speaker 1>objective hope to somebody who's entirely lost to their own subjectivity. Right.

505
00:29:07.480 --> 00:29:10.000
<v Speaker 1>This is why in the Great Divorce, Lewis's picture of

506
00:29:10.039 --> 00:29:13.200
<v Speaker 1>Hell is radical isolation, where even the home in which

507
00:29:13.240 --> 00:29:16.839
<v Speaker 1>you live is simply a projection of your mind. I

508
00:29:16.839 --> 00:29:19.480
<v Speaker 1>think that he's doing something very important there and the

509
00:29:19.480 --> 00:29:22.920
<v Speaker 1>way that he sets that up. So yes, so respond

510
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:26.000
<v Speaker 1>to your question, Yes, I do think that there are

511
00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:29.960
<v Speaker 1>some very important philosophical differences between us and the pre moderns,

512
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:33.200
<v Speaker 1>the Christians or the Pagans. And I think that our

513
00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:38.359
<v Speaker 1>technology that's led to a higher standard of living just

514
00:29:38.440 --> 00:29:43.359
<v Speaker 1>helps us to pull ourselves into these fake homes that

515
00:29:43.400 --> 00:29:47.519
<v Speaker 1>we've projected out of our minds. But that's why you

516
00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:50.160
<v Speaker 1>go to even the pagan past, and they're a lot

517
00:29:50.200 --> 00:29:53.759
<v Speaker 1>more comfortable talking about death than we are today. Sorry,

518
00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:56.079
<v Speaker 1>I tend to go to lecture monologue manage sometimes.

519
00:29:58.599 --> 00:30:01.440
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, please forgive me if I do the same.

520
00:30:04.359 --> 00:30:07.279
<v Speaker 2>I can definitely see how this idea of the inescapable

521
00:30:07.720 --> 00:30:12.839
<v Speaker 2>fate is helping the Norse peoples to kind of make

522
00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:16.960
<v Speaker 2>sense of their universe and their world and to sort

523
00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:22.079
<v Speaker 2>of like create a sense of purpose out of what

524
00:30:22.519 --> 00:30:27.079
<v Speaker 2>may seem like, you know, random events to them, you know,

525
00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:29.960
<v Speaker 2>if you know, like like you said, if someone dies

526
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:33.039
<v Speaker 2>because they're killed by a wild animal, or someone falls

527
00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:35.680
<v Speaker 2>in battle, when it like the guy who's killed, like

528
00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:38.160
<v Speaker 2>the guy who survives is like, what, why wasn't it me?

529
00:30:38.680 --> 00:30:40.559
<v Speaker 5>Why was it the guy next to me who was killed?

530
00:30:40.920 --> 00:30:41.119
<v Speaker 5>You know?

531
00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:44.319
<v Speaker 2>And as we know from like Middle Earth, you know,

532
00:30:44.519 --> 00:30:46.599
<v Speaker 2>chance is not really a thing in Middle Earth, but

533
00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:49.720
<v Speaker 2>it can seem to the human mind a lot like chance.

534
00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:52.599
<v Speaker 5>And so they're trying to find you.

535
00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:55.200
<v Speaker 2>Know, they're they're they've created this this structure of the

536
00:30:55.240 --> 00:30:58.279
<v Speaker 2>gods and Fate and the world tree, I think, at

537
00:30:58.359 --> 00:31:02.880
<v Speaker 2>least in part to to give a sense of or

538
00:31:02.920 --> 00:31:07.000
<v Speaker 2>at least discover rediscover this this sense of meaning in

539
00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:10.119
<v Speaker 2>in a universe that can seem kind of harsh to

540
00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:12.400
<v Speaker 2>them and you know, like there's this saying.

541
00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:14.880
<v Speaker 5>And and and that's such a problem with the moderns too.

542
00:31:14.920 --> 00:31:18.119
<v Speaker 2>They've you know, we've we've stripped the universe of a

543
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:21.160
<v Speaker 2>lot of its meeting meaning and so it's just you know,

544
00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:26.759
<v Speaker 2>cold empty space. You know, you get you ultimately get

545
00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:30.079
<v Speaker 2>kind of HP Lovecraft and and the Cthulhu mythos where

546
00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:31.960
<v Speaker 2>the universe is just out to get you.

547
00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:38.839
<v Speaker 5>It's it's the uncaring you know, the uncaring uh void,

548
00:31:39.559 --> 00:31:43.880
<v Speaker 5>and and that's all there is, which is different from

549
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:45.279
<v Speaker 5>I think what the Norse are doing.

550
00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:49.400
<v Speaker 4>Well, I think it's important to see the lessons in

551
00:31:49.480 --> 00:31:51.839
<v Speaker 4>the trials, and I think that's something that we've kind

552
00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:55.240
<v Speaker 4>of lost when you talk about more of a postmodern

553
00:31:55.279 --> 00:31:59.480
<v Speaker 4>approach to kind of reality. So I think that that's

554
00:31:59.559 --> 00:32:05.519
<v Speaker 4>very import.

555
00:32:03.279 --> 00:32:07.400
<v Speaker 1>Right, and the idea that there can't have a hope,

556
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:09.599
<v Speaker 1>that you can have a path of meaning through suffering,

557
00:32:09.640 --> 00:32:11.480
<v Speaker 1>and just tied to this idea again that there is

558
00:32:11.480 --> 00:32:14.480
<v Speaker 1>a broader context beyond yourself that you're suffering itself is

559
00:32:14.519 --> 00:32:17.480
<v Speaker 1>nested within a grander reality. It's just one part of

560
00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:22.160
<v Speaker 1>the tree. And you know what Tom was saying about space,

561
00:32:22.279 --> 00:32:24.160
<v Speaker 1>I mean again, obviously that makes you think of Lewis,

562
00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:26.039
<v Speaker 1>if you've read that the Raisin series, that space is

563
00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:30.559
<v Speaker 1>the wrong name. Yes, and I have reference to this

564
00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:33.319
<v Speaker 1>many times in many different places. But in the Discarded Image,

565
00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:38.440
<v Speaker 1>Lewis brings up the fact that the medieval medieval man

566
00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:41.759
<v Speaker 1>looks up at the night sky and what he sees

567
00:32:41.799 --> 00:32:44.480
<v Speaker 1>is not space. What he sees is substance in which

568
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:47.440
<v Speaker 1>his mind can rest, which is different than the modern

569
00:32:47.480 --> 00:32:49.319
<v Speaker 1>man who goes out on a starry night and he

570
00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:51.799
<v Speaker 1>looks up and he sees not an answer, but he

571
00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:55.039
<v Speaker 1>sees a question mark. He sees space, he sees emptiness.

572
00:32:55.119 --> 00:32:57.000
<v Speaker 1>He looks into the abyss, and the abyss looks back

573
00:32:57.000 --> 00:32:59.559
<v Speaker 1>into him, and so he just feels a sense of despair,

574
00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:03.200
<v Speaker 1>of radical smallness with nowhere to go. And so the

575
00:33:03.240 --> 00:33:06.640
<v Speaker 1>modern looks at space and then sees ourselves as sees

576
00:33:06.839 --> 00:33:09.599
<v Speaker 1>our existence as just you know, living on this rock,

577
00:33:09.640 --> 00:33:13.279
<v Speaker 1>floating through the void that's inevitably going to dwindle into nothingness.

578
00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:16.440
<v Speaker 1>And that's the only context that there is, which is

579
00:33:16.440 --> 00:33:18.759
<v Speaker 1>again very different from the pre moderns. But they're talking

580
00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:22.720
<v Speaker 1>about the Medievals or the pre Christian Pagans. They look

581
00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:25.480
<v Speaker 1>out at the heavens and they see substance. They see order,

582
00:33:25.559 --> 00:33:28.759
<v Speaker 1>they see gods, they see angels, they see something beyond

583
00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:32.480
<v Speaker 1>themselves in which they can find their place.

584
00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:37.799
<v Speaker 4>Something to mention, just as an aside, because I like

585
00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:43.200
<v Speaker 4>physics as well. But there is this concept called the ether,

586
00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:47.759
<v Speaker 4>and it was a concept that kind of fell out

587
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:51.480
<v Speaker 4>of fashion with Einstein, but is kind of I don't know,

588
00:33:51.519 --> 00:33:53.160
<v Speaker 4>there are a couple of people that are kind of

589
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:55.960
<v Speaker 4>like coming back to this. So it's like the idea

590
00:33:56.039 --> 00:33:59.000
<v Speaker 4>that there is actually something there, you know. So it's

591
00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:02.160
<v Speaker 4>the whole like idea of like dark matter and things

592
00:34:02.240 --> 00:34:06.319
<v Speaker 4>like that. So I think maybe, but I'm just conjecturing,

593
00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:09.400
<v Speaker 4>maybe we will end up finding out that there is

594
00:34:09.519 --> 00:34:12.280
<v Speaker 4>something there and it just we could not perceive it.

595
00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:15.840
<v Speaker 2>I think that's true because like especially when they say,

596
00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:20.400
<v Speaker 2>like what is it, Like something around ninety percent of

597
00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:24.000
<v Speaker 2>the universe is dark matter and dark energy is not

598
00:34:24.199 --> 00:34:28.840
<v Speaker 2>normal matter that we can measure and quantify, but this

599
00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:33.400
<v Speaker 2>exotic matter that we can't even really grasp yet with

600
00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:36.400
<v Speaker 2>our with our limited instruments. And so it's yeah, like

601
00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:39.840
<v Speaker 2>the medieval and classical idea of ether doesn't seem so

602
00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:41.199
<v Speaker 2>crazy anymore.

603
00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:46.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I'm no physicists, and so you know, beyond

604
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:49.360
<v Speaker 1>what the ancient Greeks did with the ether. You know,

605
00:34:49.559 --> 00:34:51.800
<v Speaker 1>I can't really dial into that conversation just out of

606
00:34:51.800 --> 00:34:55.679
<v Speaker 1>my expertise, but I am very comfortable just saying with

607
00:34:56.079 --> 00:34:59.239
<v Speaker 1>you know, Shakespeare, that you know there's more in heaven

608
00:34:59.239 --> 00:35:01.800
<v Speaker 1>and earth though that is dreamt of in your philosophy.

609
00:35:02.519 --> 00:35:05.360
<v Speaker 1>That's a line that I go to on a regular basis.

610
00:35:06.519 --> 00:35:09.639
<v Speaker 1>That just reminds me of the fact that we have

611
00:35:09.719 --> 00:35:14.840
<v Speaker 1>no idea what we don't know, uh, And so you know,

612
00:35:15.079 --> 00:35:17.400
<v Speaker 1>we need to have you know, whether you're doing science,

613
00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:20.599
<v Speaker 1>whether you're doing philosophy, whatever, we need to have a

614
00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:24.559
<v Speaker 1>great deal of humility, recognizing that we live in a

615
00:35:24.679 --> 00:35:28.440
<v Speaker 1>cosmos that you know, we only have a fraction of

616
00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:30.880
<v Speaker 1>an understanding of, and who knows what else we might

617
00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:34.400
<v Speaker 1>discover or who knows what else is happening that will

618
00:35:34.400 --> 00:35:38.280
<v Speaker 1>never discover. And I think that humility, for one thing,

619
00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:40.880
<v Speaker 1>I think it's just existentially helpful because it's a sense

620
00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:46.880
<v Speaker 1>of enchantment in wonder. But also I think it's even

621
00:35:47.480 --> 00:35:51.639
<v Speaker 1>scientifically helpful in the sense of provoking the right kinds

622
00:35:51.639 --> 00:35:55.679
<v Speaker 1>of questions and exploration, which again is something that you

623
00:35:56.039 --> 00:36:00.880
<v Speaker 1>see in the Pagans They're constantly trying to go out

624
00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:04.719
<v Speaker 1>and explore and develop a better understanding of the world

625
00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:08.719
<v Speaker 1>in which they live, which I think that is a

626
00:36:08.760 --> 00:36:14.440
<v Speaker 1>better position than simply saying science says this or that,

627
00:36:14.480 --> 00:36:16.880
<v Speaker 1>because the truth is science didn't say anything scientists do,

628
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:18.159
<v Speaker 1>and so.

629
00:36:18.440 --> 00:36:22.880
<v Speaker 2>As as someone with a science background, I hate when

630
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:26.800
<v Speaker 2>when scientists and science promoters will say stuff like that

631
00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:31.039
<v Speaker 2>science says, or trust the or science is right, you know,

632
00:36:31.159 --> 00:36:33.440
<v Speaker 2>like you know, like believe the science.

633
00:36:33.440 --> 00:36:34.760
<v Speaker 5>I'm like, wait a minute, I'm like.

634
00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:37.280
<v Speaker 4>I willheartily agree with you.

635
00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:39.599
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, because I'm like, wait.

636
00:36:39.639 --> 00:36:41.119
<v Speaker 4>I'm not in science anymore.

637
00:36:41.480 --> 00:36:45.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly, say like same thing. I'm like, scientific knowledge

638
00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:46.159
<v Speaker 2>is provisional.

639
00:36:46.239 --> 00:36:47.840
<v Speaker 5>Guys, when did we forget that?

640
00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:52.639
<v Speaker 4>Yeah? Yeah, And it's all about the data too, so

641
00:36:53.159 --> 00:36:56.119
<v Speaker 4>you know, and it's how you choose to kind of

642
00:36:56.760 --> 00:37:00.320
<v Speaker 4>you know, frame it, so you know what we know.

643
00:37:00.519 --> 00:37:02.840
<v Speaker 4>I mean, it's just like when the Earth was flat

644
00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:05.360
<v Speaker 4>and then we found that it was round. There will

645
00:37:05.400 --> 00:37:09.000
<v Speaker 4>be many things that you know, time is what the

646
00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:10.960
<v Speaker 4>great equalizer.

647
00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:15.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm gonna start telling my students when they questioned me,

648
00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:25.239
<v Speaker 1>just trust the philosophy, all right, all right, I think

649
00:37:25.239 --> 00:37:27.480
<v Speaker 1>that's a good detour. But of bringing it back to

650
00:37:28.679 --> 00:37:35.800
<v Speaker 1>this text anything else that sends out to you. But

651
00:37:35.880 --> 00:37:37.960
<v Speaker 1>one thing, just a little bit past where we were

652
00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:40.280
<v Speaker 1>just discussing, we do get to Balder, and he's someone

653
00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:44.960
<v Speaker 1>I think that's worth discussing. He's a very interesting figure.

654
00:37:45.039 --> 00:37:47.400
<v Speaker 1>And he's one of those figures who you know as

655
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:50.199
<v Speaker 1>a dying and rising God. You know, he's one of

656
00:37:50.199 --> 00:37:54.000
<v Speaker 1>those figures where the history channel, you know, documentary will

657
00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:55.679
<v Speaker 1>will pop in and say that, you know, this is

658
00:37:55.679 --> 00:37:58.199
<v Speaker 1>where we get the origins of the christ story. Right,

659
00:37:58.360 --> 00:38:00.360
<v Speaker 1>you have all these examples of dying rising God, you

660
00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:03.000
<v Speaker 1>got Balder, you got euro Cyrus, and the Christians are

661
00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:07.679
<v Speaker 1>just kind of recapitulating these same pagan ideas, right. But

662
00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:12.960
<v Speaker 1>it is interesting, I think the connections we get in

663
00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:16.280
<v Speaker 1>these mythological stories to you know, what we would call

664
00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:20.159
<v Speaker 1>the true myth of the Gospel in that I mean,

665
00:38:20.199 --> 00:38:23.199
<v Speaker 1>you do have here in Balder, you have a God

666
00:38:23.239 --> 00:38:28.000
<v Speaker 1>who's associated with the beauty and light and glory and

667
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:33.280
<v Speaker 1>all these positive things, who dies, he descends to the

668
00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:35.960
<v Speaker 1>place of the dead, and we're told that in the

669
00:38:36.119 --> 00:38:38.719
<v Speaker 1>end he's going to come forth as part of the

670
00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:41.719
<v Speaker 1>renewal of the world. And so we do I think

671
00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:47.480
<v Speaker 1>get some Christological imagery here, you know, before Christ, assuming

672
00:38:47.480 --> 00:38:50.519
<v Speaker 1>the story goes back that far, which it likely does.

673
00:38:52.519 --> 00:38:54.760
<v Speaker 1>But I really like the way that you know, Lewis

674
00:38:54.760 --> 00:38:59.960
<v Speaker 1>and Tolkien and whatnot talk about Balder when Lewis addresses

675
00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:02.320
<v Speaker 1>and myth became fact when he says that some people

676
00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:05.400
<v Speaker 1>will bring up something like balder in order to discredit Christianity.

677
00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:08.920
<v Speaker 1>But then Lewis turns back and says, if the Christian

678
00:39:08.920 --> 00:39:12.960
<v Speaker 1>Gospel is true, then will we not expect to find

679
00:39:13.599 --> 00:39:17.159
<v Speaker 1>shadows of this reality? Will we not expect to find that,

680
00:39:17.559 --> 00:39:22.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, the story of creation kind of rises up

681
00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:26.159
<v Speaker 1>in even pre Christian human understanding that it is part

682
00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:28.559
<v Speaker 1>of the fibers of reality, and so we would not

683
00:39:28.679 --> 00:39:30.920
<v Speaker 1>expect that it would come up as visions and dreams

684
00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:33.440
<v Speaker 1>and shadows. And then of course at that time we

685
00:39:33.760 --> 00:39:40.039
<v Speaker 1>pull in some platonic language about shadow and fulfillment. But yeah, Amanda, Yeah, I.

686
00:39:40.039 --> 00:39:43.440
<v Speaker 4>Just think a quick question, so with regard to this text,

687
00:39:43.639 --> 00:39:48.000
<v Speaker 4>when was it actually like the manuscript like the original?

688
00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:52.559
<v Speaker 4>When what is that dated? What is the date on that?

689
00:39:54.519 --> 00:39:56.079
<v Speaker 1>Oh? Let me see real quickly.

690
00:39:57.079 --> 00:39:59.800
<v Speaker 4>And the only reason I asked that question is because

691
00:39:59.840 --> 00:40:04.239
<v Speaker 4>I I sometimes I wonder because it was oral tradition, right,

692
00:40:04.360 --> 00:40:06.519
<v Speaker 4>it wasn't. I don't think that the Norse they were

693
00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:12.320
<v Speaker 4>very oral tradition, right. So when it was actually the manuscript,

694
00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:18.079
<v Speaker 4>the original manuscript that this may have been from, may

695
00:40:18.119 --> 00:40:21.679
<v Speaker 4>have been a time that was what was it at

696
00:40:21.800 --> 00:40:25.719
<v Speaker 4>AD or BC? Do we know, because I would be

697
00:40:25.800 --> 00:40:28.280
<v Speaker 4>interested to know that because there may have been some

698
00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:31.800
<v Speaker 4>Christian influence, you know what I'm saying. If if it

699
00:40:31.960 --> 00:40:34.119
<v Speaker 4>is AD and not BC.

700
00:40:34.840 --> 00:40:37.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean the manuscript that we have comes from

701
00:40:38.159 --> 00:40:41.119
<v Speaker 1>somewhere around the thirteenth century AD.

702
00:40:41.480 --> 00:40:42.679
<v Speaker 3>Which would be.

703
00:40:44.199 --> 00:40:48.079
<v Speaker 1>Really around the time when Christianity was starting to take

704
00:40:48.199 --> 00:40:53.360
<v Speaker 1>root in these people, and so it's it's possible. I mean,

705
00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:56.480
<v Speaker 1>most people think that these stories is in the EDA,

706
00:40:57.079 --> 00:41:01.199
<v Speaker 1>especially the main stories like Balder is a pretty story

707
00:41:01.239 --> 00:41:05.639
<v Speaker 1>that this would have been around a good while before Christianity,

708
00:41:05.880 --> 00:41:08.360
<v Speaker 1>and so was there some influence? Maybe I don't think

709
00:41:08.360 --> 00:41:12.079
<v Speaker 1>we can say for sure. At the same time, I

710
00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:14.360
<v Speaker 1>tend to think that some of these myths, like the

711
00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:17.320
<v Speaker 1>Osiris myth, like the Balder myth of the dying Rising God,

712
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:20.639
<v Speaker 1>that they do come about even before they had direct

713
00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:25.079
<v Speaker 1>access to Christian revelation. But again it I mean it's

714
00:41:25.119 --> 00:41:29.920
<v Speaker 1>not always super easy to draw those lines. But again,

715
00:41:30.559 --> 00:41:35.239
<v Speaker 1>if the story of creation, the story of redemption, the

716
00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:41.159
<v Speaker 1>meta narrative is about the you know, the birth, life, death,

717
00:41:41.159 --> 00:41:43.800
<v Speaker 1>and resurrection of Christ, and although that entails you work

718
00:41:43.880 --> 00:41:47.519
<v Speaker 1>that out into the cosmic narrative of creation fall redemption,

719
00:41:48.559 --> 00:41:51.039
<v Speaker 1>then I think that we should very much expect to

720
00:41:51.079 --> 00:41:54.280
<v Speaker 1>see that story working its way up in the human

721
00:41:54.280 --> 00:41:58.719
<v Speaker 1>imagination as that which we are all drawn toward, simply

722
00:41:58.760 --> 00:42:01.960
<v Speaker 1>as God's image bearers in God's creation that are in

723
00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:07.000
<v Speaker 1>tune to the great story. And so yeah, I just

724
00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:10.719
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, I find it interesting at the very least.

725
00:42:12.280 --> 00:42:14.760
<v Speaker 1>And in the story of Balder, even setting aside the

726
00:42:15.480 --> 00:42:19.800
<v Speaker 1>you know, bringing together with Christ, I we do get

727
00:42:19.800 --> 00:42:22.599
<v Speaker 1>another example of here of the gods trying to deny fate,

728
00:42:23.320 --> 00:42:28.760
<v Speaker 1>and so Balder and Freya get this dream that Balder

729
00:42:28.840 --> 00:42:31.960
<v Speaker 1>is going to die, and so Freya gets an oath

730
00:42:32.039 --> 00:42:36.400
<v Speaker 1>from every object on earth that it's not going to

731
00:42:36.639 --> 00:42:39.719
<v Speaker 1>harm Balder, except, of course, she misses one thing. She

732
00:42:39.800 --> 00:42:46.880
<v Speaker 1>doesn't get an oath from mistletoe. And so the gods

733
00:42:46.920 --> 00:42:50.400
<v Speaker 1>developed this game because they think that Balder can't be

734
00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:53.719
<v Speaker 1>hurt by anything that touches him where they just take

735
00:42:53.800 --> 00:42:57.559
<v Speaker 1>throw stuff at him. We see this in the proset,

736
00:42:57.599 --> 00:42:58.880
<v Speaker 1>and so I'm getting a little bit outside of our

737
00:42:58.960 --> 00:43:01.039
<v Speaker 1>art tacks here. But they've built this game where they

738
00:43:01.079 --> 00:43:02.599
<v Speaker 1>just throw stuff at him because they know nothing can

739
00:43:02.679 --> 00:43:07.599
<v Speaker 1>hurt him. But then Loki the Trickster gives in either

740
00:43:07.639 --> 00:43:10.920
<v Speaker 1>depending on the story, an arrow or a spear to

741
00:43:12.280 --> 00:43:15.480
<v Speaker 1>to Hoder who's the blind god, and so he takes

742
00:43:15.559 --> 00:43:18.440
<v Speaker 1>this weapon made of missiletoe and he's part of this

743
00:43:18.639 --> 00:43:21.840
<v Speaker 1>throw things at Bolber game. And so he throws a

744
00:43:21.880 --> 00:43:23.920
<v Speaker 1>spear or whatever of mistletoe at Barlber and that's what

745
00:43:24.039 --> 00:43:29.760
<v Speaker 1>kills him. And then he descends into Hell h e

746
00:43:29.920 --> 00:43:34.400
<v Speaker 1>l and the Place of the Dead, where he's going

747
00:43:34.400 --> 00:43:38.360
<v Speaker 1>to await. But there's also this prophecy that after Ragnarok,

748
00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:41.880
<v Speaker 1>he as well as Hooter who killed him, are going

749
00:43:41.920 --> 00:43:44.840
<v Speaker 1>to rise again, They're going to be reunited, and that

750
00:43:45.159 --> 00:43:49.679
<v Speaker 1>they're going to be part of this kind of remaining

751
00:43:50.559 --> 00:43:55.440
<v Speaker 1>force that's going to basically rebuild the world. Yeah, I

752
00:43:55.480 --> 00:43:57.920
<v Speaker 1>don't know anything else that you have to say about Bilber.

753
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:02.639
<v Speaker 2>I was wondering if that if we know if the

754
00:44:02.760 --> 00:44:08.079
<v Speaker 2>Norse believed in an internally perpetuating cycle of creation, in

755
00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:12.599
<v Speaker 2>Ragnarok or was it just supposed to happen once, because

756
00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:16.079
<v Speaker 2>I've I've heard conflicting stuff about that.

757
00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:20.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it seems to me like it's not super clear.

758
00:44:21.480 --> 00:44:23.760
<v Speaker 1>And so at the end of this vision that we

759
00:44:23.800 --> 00:44:28.800
<v Speaker 1>receive here, we're told that Nidthog is present. Which Nithog

760
00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:33.360
<v Speaker 1>is this dragon that eats corpses at the roots of

761
00:44:33.519 --> 00:44:39.920
<v Speaker 1>utar seal, not this nice paragot of goodness virtue that

762
00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:43.800
<v Speaker 1>this is basically a demon of sorts. Yet it seems

763
00:44:43.800 --> 00:44:47.159
<v Speaker 1>to be there at the end, And even Larrington, at

764
00:44:47.199 --> 00:44:51.960
<v Speaker 1>the end of her introduction here says, it's not really

765
00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:55.360
<v Speaker 1>clear if Needthog appearing is like this is just the

766
00:44:55.440 --> 00:44:58.519
<v Speaker 1>vision ending and now we're becoming reacquainted with the evil

767
00:44:58.519 --> 00:45:01.320
<v Speaker 1>that's still around us, or is this like they're still

768
00:45:01.400 --> 00:45:04.519
<v Speaker 1>enduring evil even after Ragnarok. It's not really clear what's

769
00:45:04.559 --> 00:45:07.840
<v Speaker 1>happening in the narrative there. And so is there this

770
00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:14.079
<v Speaker 1>continuation of reburst in destructions or is it final. I

771
00:45:14.119 --> 00:45:16.119
<v Speaker 1>don't know that that's super clear, at least based off

772
00:45:16.199 --> 00:45:18.599
<v Speaker 1>what I've seen, So it's a good question.

773
00:45:20.760 --> 00:45:25.719
<v Speaker 2>Also, too, I was struck that this appears to be Ragnarok.

774
00:45:26.199 --> 00:45:30.000
<v Speaker 2>It appears to be the inspiration for Tolkien's Dagger Daggarath,

775
00:45:30.840 --> 00:45:35.800
<v Speaker 2>a sort of Christianized Ragnarok, you know, or really a

776
00:45:35.840 --> 00:45:39.400
<v Speaker 2>tolkieny eyes Ragnarok, which is like it's almost like combining,

777
00:45:39.599 --> 00:45:44.519
<v Speaker 2>you know, the Apocalypse with with the Doom of the Gods,

778
00:45:44.559 --> 00:45:47.760
<v Speaker 2>where it's like the final Battle between the Valar and

779
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:52.599
<v Speaker 2>and a recreate a reborn Morgoth and so it it

780
00:45:53.079 --> 00:45:56.960
<v Speaker 2>and it and including heroic not like non got like

781
00:45:57.079 --> 00:46:01.039
<v Speaker 2>mortal characters as well. And I find interesting that that

782
00:46:01.639 --> 00:46:06.239
<v Speaker 2>text did not make it into the final published Silmarillion.

783
00:46:07.360 --> 00:46:10.159
<v Speaker 2>Christopher Tolkien seemed to have made a conscious choice to

784
00:46:10.239 --> 00:46:10.760
<v Speaker 2>leave it out.

785
00:46:11.800 --> 00:46:14.159
<v Speaker 5>But I wonder how.

786
00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:19.679
<v Speaker 2>It what Tolkien's intention would have been, because I know

787
00:46:19.719 --> 00:46:22.079
<v Speaker 2>he struggled for many years to publish the film million

788
00:46:22.119 --> 00:46:24.480
<v Speaker 2>and it never happened during his lifetime. And I'm just

789
00:46:24.519 --> 00:46:28.679
<v Speaker 2>wondering if that really like Norse inspired End of the

790
00:46:28.719 --> 00:46:32.679
<v Speaker 2>World text, if that was part of his of his

791
00:46:32.880 --> 00:46:38.440
<v Speaker 2>vision for a complete Silmarillion. I don't know, Yeah, that.

792
00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:43.039
<v Speaker 1>Would definitely be interesting. And of course Lewis drew heavily

793
00:46:43.079 --> 00:46:45.559
<v Speaker 1>on Ragnarock as well for the ending of the Last Battle,

794
00:46:45.960 --> 00:46:48.480
<v Speaker 1>and a lot of the imagery that were given there

795
00:46:49.679 --> 00:46:52.639
<v Speaker 1>about even you know that the moon being shattered, and

796
00:46:53.400 --> 00:46:55.280
<v Speaker 1>just a lot of the imagery there to pulled directly

797
00:46:55.320 --> 00:46:59.519
<v Speaker 1>from the idea of Ragnarok. Yet in both of the

798
00:46:59.800 --> 00:47:02.559
<v Speaker 1>case is obviously we are dealing with the definitive final

799
00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:06.599
<v Speaker 1>end at that point in final renewal. But it is

800
00:47:06.719 --> 00:47:12.679
<v Speaker 1>interesting how much someone like Tolkien lashed onto Ragnarok and

801
00:47:12.880 --> 00:47:19.239
<v Speaker 1>this cosmic renewal for not just imagination, but he saw

802
00:47:19.280 --> 00:47:24.199
<v Speaker 1>this as a vehicle for communicating Christian truth. It gave

803
00:47:24.280 --> 00:47:27.519
<v Speaker 1>him his basic eschatology, right. It is the idea of

804
00:47:27.599 --> 00:47:32.840
<v Speaker 1>the long Defeat followed by Yucatastrophe, that all things are

805
00:47:32.880 --> 00:47:36.119
<v Speaker 1>in the long run, I mean, they're drawing to a close.

806
00:47:36.599 --> 00:47:39.760
<v Speaker 1>And you find this when you read the Norse myths

807
00:47:39.880 --> 00:47:44.199
<v Speaker 1>and legends. You read even things that are generally in

808
00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:47.719
<v Speaker 1>this climate, like you're Beowulf. There's this idea that, yes,

809
00:47:49.159 --> 00:47:53.559
<v Speaker 1>heroes now need to fight for that which is with

810
00:47:53.800 --> 00:47:57.599
<v Speaker 1>worth defending. They need to secure the meat halls, they

811
00:47:57.639 --> 00:47:59.880
<v Speaker 1>need to keep the fires burning, drive back the forces

812
00:47:59.880 --> 00:48:02.480
<v Speaker 1>of darkness. For there's this expectation that in the end

813
00:48:02.519 --> 00:48:05.480
<v Speaker 1>they're all going to die, that in the end we're

814
00:48:05.559 --> 00:48:11.559
<v Speaker 1>headed for a the consumption of winter that eventually all

815
00:48:11.599 --> 00:48:15.199
<v Speaker 1>things are going to fade away, but there's also this,

816
00:48:15.320 --> 00:48:20.079
<v Speaker 1>at least vague hope that once all good things fade away,

817
00:48:20.679 --> 00:48:25.119
<v Speaker 1>there is going to be this sudden, unexpected renewal. There

818
00:48:25.159 --> 00:48:28.800
<v Speaker 1>is going to be this hope. And and you know,

819
00:48:28.880 --> 00:48:31.920
<v Speaker 1>Tolkien looked at that and thought that he saw essentially

820
00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:37.480
<v Speaker 1>a Christian revelation there, even if you know, as Lewis

821
00:48:37.519 --> 00:48:41.239
<v Speaker 1>says that in Perilandra, that you know, he looked at

822
00:48:41.360 --> 00:48:44.440
<v Speaker 1>pagan mythologies, he finally recognized what they were, that they're

823
00:48:44.480 --> 00:48:47.239
<v Speaker 1>glimmers of celestial strengthen glory that have fallen on a

824
00:48:47.280 --> 00:48:50.920
<v Speaker 1>jungle of imbecility. And so, you know, there's a lot

825
00:48:50.920 --> 00:48:52.960
<v Speaker 1>that's wrong with paganism, and so I'm not saying we

826
00:48:53.000 --> 00:48:55.480
<v Speaker 1>need to be pagans. But at the same time, which

827
00:48:55.480 --> 00:48:58.599
<v Speaker 1>I think more remarkable, is that there's a lot right

828
00:48:58.880 --> 00:49:01.599
<v Speaker 1>about paganism. It just needs to be brought back into

829
00:49:01.599 --> 00:49:04.679
<v Speaker 1>the right context. You know, it needs to be baptized,

830
00:49:04.679 --> 00:49:08.119
<v Speaker 1>it needs to be brought back into the right context.

831
00:49:08.360 --> 00:49:11.280
<v Speaker 1>And so there's a lot in the Ragnarrock story that

832
00:49:11.880 --> 00:49:16.440
<v Speaker 1>I think does actually suit really well with Christian theology

833
00:49:16.880 --> 00:49:19.360
<v Speaker 1>about the fact that our ultimate hope is not for

834
00:49:19.639 --> 00:49:23.000
<v Speaker 1>this earth, but it is for this earth renewed.

835
00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:27.559
<v Speaker 4>I think that's a very I think that's a very

836
00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:30.440
<v Speaker 4>fair assertion. I actually can agree with that.

837
00:49:31.639 --> 00:49:38.559
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, yeah, And actually I guess I don't really

838
00:49:38.599 --> 00:49:41.599
<v Speaker 1>need to say anything else about that, anything else that

839
00:49:41.639 --> 00:49:44.880
<v Speaker 1>anyone wants to bring up from the Volspa.

840
00:49:47.239 --> 00:49:49.599
<v Speaker 3>It's kind of something I'm always curious of when I'm

841
00:49:49.639 --> 00:49:54.039
<v Speaker 3>reading any anything of sort of like a Pagan sort

842
00:49:54.159 --> 00:49:59.280
<v Speaker 3>But do you have any idea like what exactly like

843
00:49:59.360 --> 00:50:03.440
<v Speaker 3>their first principles of metaphysics would be like in this culture,

844
00:50:03.599 --> 00:50:06.400
<v Speaker 3>like what like transcend Do they have any conception or

845
00:50:06.440 --> 00:50:13.719
<v Speaker 3>something that transcends beyond like Odin frey Thor and like

846
00:50:13.760 --> 00:50:15.840
<v Speaker 3>some like the primary gods.

847
00:50:17.559 --> 00:50:20.760
<v Speaker 1>It seems like when you're studying, when you're reading the Pagans,

848
00:50:20.760 --> 00:50:24.079
<v Speaker 1>whether the Norse, the Greeks, Romans, whoever, you're really dealing

849
00:50:24.280 --> 00:50:28.599
<v Speaker 1>fundamentally with one plane of existence right where the gods

850
00:50:29.079 --> 00:50:32.039
<v Speaker 1>aren't really different from us other than that they've got

851
00:50:32.079 --> 00:50:35.519
<v Speaker 1>some superpowers and they live longer. But you don't have

852
00:50:35.639 --> 00:50:38.639
<v Speaker 1>the kind of transcendence that you get in Christianity, that

853
00:50:38.679 --> 00:50:40.880
<v Speaker 1>you get in Judaism, that you even get in Islam.

854
00:50:41.039 --> 00:50:44.039
<v Speaker 1>Are the monotheistic religions, right, they all have this sense

855
00:50:44.039 --> 00:50:47.480
<v Speaker 1>of transcendence, that there is a deity that stands in

856
00:50:47.519 --> 00:50:50.039
<v Speaker 1>a different realm of being and it's more fundamental than

857
00:50:50.239 --> 00:50:53.360
<v Speaker 1>the world that we know through extense experience. Whereas you say,

858
00:50:53.360 --> 00:50:55.239
<v Speaker 1>the Pagans and for the most part, they don't have

859
00:50:55.320 --> 00:51:00.159
<v Speaker 1>that kind of transcendence. They just have humans and for

860
00:51:00.280 --> 00:51:04.760
<v Speaker 1>humans of sorts. But we're all on one basic plane

861
00:51:04.800 --> 00:51:07.199
<v Speaker 1>of reality, right. I mean that the gods of Greece,

862
00:51:07.239 --> 00:51:11.480
<v Speaker 1>they live on Mount Olympus. Eventually they kind of get

863
00:51:11.519 --> 00:51:14.079
<v Speaker 1>conflated with the stars and so you know, they they

864
00:51:14.079 --> 00:51:17.519
<v Speaker 1>get a better home, but we're still dealing with the

865
00:51:17.559 --> 00:51:22.519
<v Speaker 1>same realm of being. So true with the Norse, the gods, men,

866
00:51:23.679 --> 00:51:28.840
<v Speaker 1>the the dead, they all live within the same tree. Right.

867
00:51:28.880 --> 00:51:34.239
<v Speaker 1>They're all with you dress seal and so yeah, I

868
00:51:34.239 --> 00:51:38.679
<v Speaker 1>guess they're I mean, They're metaphysics is to some extent

869
00:51:38.800 --> 00:51:41.039
<v Speaker 1>is tied into their physics. It's all just sort of

870
00:51:42.239 --> 00:51:42.960
<v Speaker 1>one reality.

871
00:51:44.239 --> 00:51:47.079
<v Speaker 4>I would just say that the one unifier that I

872
00:51:47.440 --> 00:51:52.159
<v Speaker 4>could find would just be the heavens themselves, at least

873
00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:55.800
<v Speaker 4>from you know before, like you know where you're talking

874
00:51:55.840 --> 00:52:00.719
<v Speaker 4>pre modern concept and idea of like the celestial heavens,

875
00:52:00.719 --> 00:52:02.719
<v Speaker 4>like you could say that that would be like something

876
00:52:02.760 --> 00:52:09.800
<v Speaker 4>that they could that the kind of mythology and then

877
00:52:09.960 --> 00:52:13.079
<v Speaker 4>Christianity could kind of melt as one for a period

878
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:13.440
<v Speaker 4>of time.

879
00:52:16.599 --> 00:52:19.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and we definitely see that, you know, as we

880
00:52:19.559 --> 00:52:26.039
<v Speaker 1>move into medieval cosmology, that there is this adoption, not

881
00:52:26.079 --> 00:52:29.360
<v Speaker 1>just cancelation. There's this sort of this adoption of the

882
00:52:29.400 --> 00:52:32.519
<v Speaker 1>pagan monoli king before them that then gets baptized and

883
00:52:32.559 --> 00:52:36.079
<v Speaker 1>it gets Christianized. There's a reason why we still refer

884
00:52:36.119 --> 00:52:39.800
<v Speaker 1>to the planets by their you know, by Roman gods

885
00:52:39.800 --> 00:52:44.880
<v Speaker 1>and goddesses, because the Medievals didn't seem to really have

886
00:52:44.920 --> 00:52:48.280
<v Speaker 1>a problem with doing that. They obviously don't treat them

887
00:52:48.360 --> 00:52:52.280
<v Speaker 1>as pagan deities, but they still treat them as something

888
00:52:52.440 --> 00:52:55.440
<v Speaker 1>like intelligences. They kind of become angels essentially.

889
00:52:56.760 --> 00:53:01.000
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, So like I'm getting as just something above yourself essentially.

890
00:53:01.280 --> 00:53:04.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly right. You're you're operating with any context above yourself,

891
00:53:04.519 --> 00:53:10.559
<v Speaker 1>and there is that connection there now it is I

892
00:53:10.559 --> 00:53:14.159
<v Speaker 1>think this is in the next section they kind of

893
00:53:14.199 --> 00:53:16.599
<v Speaker 1>run together for reconce I haven't spent enough time with us,

894
00:53:16.599 --> 00:53:23.719
<v Speaker 1>but the part where Odin sacrifices himself that I find

895
00:53:23.800 --> 00:53:28.760
<v Speaker 1>very interesting. And so we're told that at one point Odin,

896
00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:32.280
<v Speaker 1>in seeking knowledge of the Runes, he's looking for like

897
00:53:32.559 --> 00:53:40.119
<v Speaker 1>great wisdom. Essentially, he sacrifices himself to himself on e

898
00:53:40.280 --> 00:53:43.159
<v Speaker 1>dress Seal specifically told he impales himself with a spear

899
00:53:43.719 --> 00:53:48.880
<v Speaker 1>onto the tree. Again, I can't help but to think

900
00:53:48.960 --> 00:53:54.440
<v Speaker 1>about the potential Christological connection there that we're told he

901
00:53:54.480 --> 00:53:57.519
<v Speaker 1>sacrifices himself to himself on the tree in order to

902
00:53:57.519 --> 00:54:00.119
<v Speaker 1>gain wisdom. Now obviously that's not the Christian story, but

903
00:54:00.159 --> 00:54:05.360
<v Speaker 1>there's enough there that I think just raises the question,

904
00:54:05.639 --> 00:54:11.360
<v Speaker 1>it raises the topic of that connection. And I mean

905
00:54:11.440 --> 00:54:13.480
<v Speaker 1>also it just makes you think of even the connection

906
00:54:13.639 --> 00:54:16.159
<v Speaker 1>of the World Tree, which the idea of the world tree,

907
00:54:16.199 --> 00:54:18.519
<v Speaker 1>and that's something that's not totally unique to the Norse.

908
00:54:18.760 --> 00:54:21.440
<v Speaker 1>You can find some elements of the World Tree, the

909
00:54:22.079 --> 00:54:26.719
<v Speaker 1>tree of life, something about a cosmically significant tree and

910
00:54:26.760 --> 00:54:29.239
<v Speaker 1>a number of different myths, and you know, I can't

911
00:54:29.239 --> 00:54:32.280
<v Speaker 1>help but to connect us r Seal even to the

912
00:54:32.840 --> 00:54:36.639
<v Speaker 1>Cross of Christ, the tree which reaches down into Hell

913
00:54:36.760 --> 00:54:40.840
<v Speaker 1>but also ascends up into the heavens, and you know,

914
00:54:40.880 --> 00:54:46.320
<v Speaker 1>metaphysically it is the cosmic unifying point that brings chaos

915
00:54:46.360 --> 00:54:50.760
<v Speaker 1>back into its proper order. It's where real life is found.

916
00:54:51.360 --> 00:54:52.960
<v Speaker 1>And so as I look at the heart of even

917
00:54:53.000 --> 00:54:56.159
<v Speaker 1>what the tree chr Seal is, you know, again, I

918
00:54:56.199 --> 00:54:59.800
<v Speaker 1>can't help but to see connection to the Cross of Christ,

919
00:55:00.079 --> 00:55:04.639
<v Speaker 1>in which Christ also was sacrificed, not necessarily to himself

920
00:55:04.719 --> 00:55:06.679
<v Speaker 1>but to God. It's again, I mean, looking at a

921
00:55:06.800 --> 00:55:10.159
<v Speaker 1>pagan parallel, so at least pretty close and then even

922
00:55:10.199 --> 00:55:13.760
<v Speaker 1>impaled with a spear onto that tree. And so I

923
00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:16.199
<v Speaker 1>just I think that there are a lot of strong

924
00:55:18.119 --> 00:55:25.840
<v Speaker 1>proto Christian symbols in these stories. Yeah, I don't know

925
00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:26.920
<v Speaker 1>what to do with that, but I just think it's

926
00:55:26.920 --> 00:55:28.559
<v Speaker 1>at least interesting to think about.

927
00:55:31.239 --> 00:55:34.000
<v Speaker 4>Now. Absolutely, absolutely, I think it's very interesting.

928
00:55:35.119 --> 00:55:39.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and yeah, again, a lot of times people will

929
00:55:39.000 --> 00:55:41.679
<v Speaker 1>look to these stories and try to say that Christianity

930
00:55:42.119 --> 00:55:46.039
<v Speaker 1>isn't unique because we have rehashing of some of these symbols.

931
00:55:46.400 --> 00:55:50.039
<v Speaker 1>But again, as Lewis says, and it became fact that

932
00:55:50.280 --> 00:55:53.400
<v Speaker 1>if the Christian story is true, then it would actually

933
00:55:53.440 --> 00:55:57.960
<v Speaker 1>be a reason for more doubt if we didn't see

934
00:55:57.960 --> 00:56:00.880
<v Speaker 1>some traces of this, you know, elsewhere, that if this

935
00:56:01.039 --> 00:56:03.480
<v Speaker 1>is the story, then we should expect it to be

936
00:56:04.840 --> 00:56:11.960
<v Speaker 1>anticipated in other stories now moving more directly to the

937
00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:16.000
<v Speaker 1>sayings of the High One or the the the Hummofal,

938
00:56:16.960 --> 00:56:21.559
<v Speaker 1>which is kind of like a book of proverbs. It's

939
00:56:21.639 --> 00:56:23.159
<v Speaker 1>it's about the wisdom of Odin.

940
00:56:23.639 --> 00:56:23.840
<v Speaker 6>Yeah.

941
00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:26.880
<v Speaker 2>I was calling it as I was reading it, Odin's

942
00:56:26.960 --> 00:56:29.079
<v Speaker 2>Rules for Life.

943
00:56:30.039 --> 00:56:33.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, yeah, And that's basically what it is. And

944
00:56:33.760 --> 00:56:36.320
<v Speaker 1>and so we've got the wisdom of Odin here coming

945
00:56:36.320 --> 00:56:38.719
<v Speaker 1>down to us in a set of proverbs. And so

946
00:56:39.719 --> 00:56:42.920
<v Speaker 1>interested to see what stood out to you. So, I mean,

947
00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:45.679
<v Speaker 1>Thomas her Josh, I mean, what are what thoughts do

948
00:56:45.719 --> 00:56:48.159
<v Speaker 1>you have about those text?

949
00:56:48.920 --> 00:56:50.639
<v Speaker 3>Is that you're gonna ask in general, like, do you

950
00:56:50.639 --> 00:56:55.880
<v Speaker 3>ever find it hard to read this form of literature,

951
00:56:55.920 --> 00:56:59.360
<v Speaker 3>whether it be like proverbial or or like a series

952
00:56:59.400 --> 00:57:01.679
<v Speaker 3>of effort or anything. I'm kind of thinking of Like

953
00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:07.159
<v Speaker 3>I think like Pascal's Ponces are like a really profound

954
00:57:07.199 --> 00:57:10.599
<v Speaker 3>and wonderful text, But sometimes I'm like, am I like

955
00:57:10.639 --> 00:57:14.440
<v Speaker 3>misinterpreting what he's talking about because there's just so little

956
00:57:15.559 --> 00:57:18.840
<v Speaker 3>like context of any sort that I'm like, I, you

957
00:57:18.840 --> 00:57:20.679
<v Speaker 3>know what I'm saying, Like I don't want to like

958
00:57:20.719 --> 00:57:24.760
<v Speaker 3>misinterpret it because it's completely you know, almost a thousand

959
00:57:24.840 --> 00:57:27.639
<v Speaker 3>years removed from where I'm sitting today, and I have

960
00:57:27.719 --> 00:57:31.599
<v Speaker 3>no idea other than like the introduction. Basically, it's like

961
00:57:31.679 --> 00:57:37.119
<v Speaker 3>a couple of sentences long exactly like exactly like what

962
00:57:37.280 --> 00:57:39.719
<v Speaker 3>this is about, or if it's about something more specific

963
00:57:39.760 --> 00:57:42.599
<v Speaker 3>than I realize, you know what I'm saying. That makes sense.

964
00:57:44.840 --> 00:57:47.920
<v Speaker 4>Oh, I feel like that with time. Sorry, I don't

965
00:57:47.920 --> 00:57:50.760
<v Speaker 4>say I feel like that with Thomas Aquinas all the time.

966
00:57:50.880 --> 00:57:54.039
<v Speaker 4>I'm rereading it constantly.

967
00:57:54.199 --> 00:57:54.960
<v Speaker 3>That's very fair.

968
00:57:56.079 --> 00:57:58.960
<v Speaker 2>Well like Marcus Aurelius, where it's you know, it's just

969
00:57:59.039 --> 00:58:03.679
<v Speaker 2>like in the Meditations, it's just like the series of aphorisms,

970
00:58:03.719 --> 00:58:06.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, and and life advice and and it's and

971
00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:11.280
<v Speaker 2>sometimes I can almost get like, like, I'm not sure

972
00:58:11.320 --> 00:58:15.280
<v Speaker 2>this is meant to be read, like page after page

973
00:58:15.280 --> 00:58:17.599
<v Speaker 2>from beginning to end. I think I'm what I'm really

974
00:58:17.639 --> 00:58:20.239
<v Speaker 2>supposed to be doing is just taking one or two

975
00:58:20.320 --> 00:58:24.360
<v Speaker 2>of these and sitting with them for a while. But like,

976
00:58:24.440 --> 00:58:26.239
<v Speaker 2>but that's not what I do. I just tend to

977
00:58:26.239 --> 00:58:29.079
<v Speaker 2>read the book cover to cover and like blow through

978
00:58:29.079 --> 00:58:30.920
<v Speaker 2>the whole thing, and I'm like, I don't think I

979
00:58:31.039 --> 00:58:33.760
<v Speaker 2>extracted as much wisdom from that as I was meant to.

980
00:58:35.159 --> 00:58:38.639
<v Speaker 4>Fair, Yeah, I've been sitting with I've had Thomas Aquinas.

981
00:58:39.199 --> 00:58:41.360
<v Speaker 4>I've been reading it for a while, and I'm only

982
00:58:41.360 --> 00:58:43.480
<v Speaker 4>on page thirty two for that very reason.

983
00:58:46.719 --> 00:58:48.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think, especially when it comes to a book

984
00:58:48.400 --> 00:58:51.280
<v Speaker 1>like The Meditations, I think maybe we're supposed to meditate

985
00:58:51.320 --> 00:58:52.719
<v Speaker 1>on it, Yes.

986
00:58:55.639 --> 00:59:00.639
<v Speaker 3>But isn't even like maybe like the context isn't Maybe

987
00:59:00.639 --> 00:59:02.760
<v Speaker 3>I'm overthinking in this sense. I just kind of think

988
00:59:02.800 --> 00:59:05.920
<v Speaker 3>even like somebody like Seneca per Se, where this letter

989
00:59:05.960 --> 00:59:09.039
<v Speaker 3>is usually addressed to like a person and he's like, hey,

990
00:59:09.199 --> 00:59:11.599
<v Speaker 3>like you're doing this thing and you should live in

991
00:59:11.719 --> 00:59:16.079
<v Speaker 3>moderation where you should be, you know, frugal and shrewd,

992
00:59:16.199 --> 00:59:18.360
<v Speaker 3>but you shouldn't be so shrewd that you become a

993
00:59:18.400 --> 00:59:20.719
<v Speaker 3>weirdo and like don't know how to relate to others.

994
00:59:20.800 --> 00:59:23.039
<v Speaker 3>Like that's I was just thinking of like an example

995
00:59:23.039 --> 00:59:26.519
<v Speaker 3>of a letter I read recently, but it's like addressed

996
00:59:26.519 --> 00:59:28.280
<v Speaker 3>to a person, you kind of get, oh, here's the

997
00:59:28.320 --> 00:59:31.679
<v Speaker 3>subject matter, here's what he's talking about, and yeah, sometimes

998
00:59:31.719 --> 00:59:34.760
<v Speaker 3>it's hard to read this. With like the Biblical proverbs,

999
00:59:34.760 --> 00:59:38.400
<v Speaker 3>it's like, I I think I've been interpreting them right

1000
00:59:38.440 --> 00:59:41.840
<v Speaker 3>all this time, somewhat at least hopefully, But you know,

1001
00:59:41.920 --> 00:59:45.159
<v Speaker 3>having like that biblical theological context helps with that. But

1002
00:59:45.280 --> 00:59:47.559
<v Speaker 3>sometimes I'm like, what am I?

1003
00:59:47.559 --> 00:59:47.679
<v Speaker 2>Am?

1004
00:59:47.679 --> 00:59:51.280
<v Speaker 3>I actually understanding this? Right? Like what are they? What

1005
00:59:51.280 --> 00:59:53.880
<v Speaker 3>are they talking about? Perhaps just like a deeper understanding

1006
00:59:53.920 --> 00:59:57.880
<v Speaker 3>of this culture and the like, you know, Snory's pros

1007
00:59:58.039 --> 01:00:00.079
<v Speaker 3>prosy to and other things would even help with that

1008
01:00:00.039 --> 01:00:05.960
<v Speaker 3>as well. But yeah, just just thoughts I have on Yeah,

1009
01:00:06.039 --> 01:00:07.199
<v Speaker 3>and I think that's fair.

1010
01:00:07.599 --> 01:00:10.199
<v Speaker 1>And you know, I don't always know what he's doing

1011
01:00:10.199 --> 01:00:13.800
<v Speaker 1>when he especially when he's appealing to particular like names

1012
01:00:13.880 --> 01:00:16.639
<v Speaker 1>or places I'm not familiar with, right, I feel like

1013
01:00:16.840 --> 01:00:21.719
<v Speaker 1>most of this is kind of like universal wisdom, or

1014
01:00:21.880 --> 01:00:24.320
<v Speaker 1>where you read something that doesn't seem like wisdom, you

1015
01:00:24.320 --> 01:00:28.239
<v Speaker 1>can at least figure out what cultural ideals he's presenting

1016
01:00:28.360 --> 01:00:31.639
<v Speaker 1>or speaking to. And so, you know, there's a lot

1017
01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:36.000
<v Speaker 1>of what you find throughout the old world, especially that

1018
01:00:36.039 --> 01:00:39.719
<v Speaker 1>you know, there's a lot of emphasis on hospitality. There's

1019
01:00:39.760 --> 01:00:41.679
<v Speaker 1>a lot of emphasis on like like you would even

1020
01:00:41.679 --> 01:00:44.519
<v Speaker 1>get in the proverbs about not being quick to speak,

1021
01:00:44.840 --> 01:00:47.199
<v Speaker 1>but you need to listen, you need to keep your

1022
01:00:47.199 --> 01:00:50.000
<v Speaker 1>mouth shut when you don't know what you're saying. You

1023
01:00:50.039 --> 01:00:54.039
<v Speaker 1>know that you should be loyal to your companions. Now,

1024
01:00:54.840 --> 01:00:57.239
<v Speaker 1>perhaps unlike the proverbs. You know, it's also gonna be

1025
01:00:57.239 --> 01:01:01.920
<v Speaker 1>a lot of emphasis on being a good pillager, essentially,

1026
01:01:04.239 --> 01:01:08.840
<v Speaker 1>which shows that they have no problem with violence. You know,

1027
01:01:09.039 --> 01:01:13.320
<v Speaker 1>at one point it said, I don't know where it's exactly,

1028
01:01:13.360 --> 01:01:14.679
<v Speaker 1>but I think it's I was going to say.

1029
01:01:14.719 --> 01:01:17.119
<v Speaker 4>When I found it that this was Viking, I was like,

1030
01:01:17.159 --> 01:01:23.079
<v Speaker 4>oh no, but that's all right, because I love mythology,

1031
01:01:23.239 --> 01:01:24.239
<v Speaker 4>So it's fine.

1032
01:01:25.800 --> 01:01:28.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, somewhere in here. I again only where it is,

1033
01:01:29.199 --> 01:01:32.599
<v Speaker 1>but it says, you know, if you want to kill

1034
01:01:32.639 --> 01:01:34.239
<v Speaker 1>somebody or take their stuff, make sure you get up

1035
01:01:34.280 --> 01:01:36.079
<v Speaker 1>early in the morning. It's kind of like just all

1036
01:01:36.119 --> 01:01:36.719
<v Speaker 1>the days work.

1037
01:01:38.960 --> 01:01:41.840
<v Speaker 4>It's it's hilarious now, but it was terrible then.

1038
01:01:42.760 --> 01:01:43.199
<v Speaker 1>For sure.

1039
01:01:43.519 --> 01:01:44.840
<v Speaker 4>People were so frightened.

1040
01:01:46.000 --> 01:01:49.119
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, here it is. It's verse fifty eight. You know,

1041
01:01:49.159 --> 01:01:50.960
<v Speaker 1>he should get up early. The man who means to

1042
01:01:50.960 --> 01:01:54.079
<v Speaker 1>take another's life for property. Seldom does a loafing wolf

1043
01:01:54.119 --> 01:01:56.280
<v Speaker 1>snatch the ham, nor a sleeping man.

1044
01:01:56.360 --> 01:02:02.400
<v Speaker 4>Victory painful, painful.

1045
01:02:02.480 --> 01:02:06.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And so there's obviously a lot in here that

1046
01:02:08.039 --> 01:02:10.440
<v Speaker 1>we're not going to take as wisdom that we should

1047
01:02:10.440 --> 01:02:12.920
<v Speaker 1>be implementing in our daily lives. But also I think

1048
01:02:12.920 --> 01:02:16.280
<v Speaker 1>there's a lot in here that is quite useful and

1049
01:02:16.519 --> 01:02:20.199
<v Speaker 1>is quite wise. For example, going back to what we've

1050
01:02:20.199 --> 01:02:23.960
<v Speaker 1>already been discussing about their relationship to mortality, we see

1051
01:02:23.960 --> 01:02:28.280
<v Speaker 1>this idea that fear of death shouldn't drive us because

1052
01:02:28.360 --> 01:02:30.480
<v Speaker 1>that's the path of the coward, and that's what's in

1053
01:02:30.760 --> 01:02:32.599
<v Speaker 1>your attempt to hold onto your life, you can end

1054
01:02:32.719 --> 01:02:35.079
<v Speaker 1>up losing any life worth holding onto.

1055
01:02:35.880 --> 01:02:37.320
<v Speaker 6>I wrote that one down.

1056
01:02:37.719 --> 01:02:38.679
<v Speaker 5>I wrote that one down.

1057
01:02:38.840 --> 01:02:41.800
<v Speaker 2>It is the coward thinks he'll live forever if he

1058
01:02:41.840 --> 01:02:45.960
<v Speaker 2>flees from the battlefield, but old age won't grant him

1059
01:02:45.960 --> 01:02:48.360
<v Speaker 2>a truce, even if spears spare him.

1060
01:02:49.079 --> 01:02:51.039
<v Speaker 4>So I actually have a sticky note if you if

1061
01:02:51.079 --> 01:02:53.920
<v Speaker 4>you give me one moment, and it's actually from one

1062
01:02:53.960 --> 01:02:57.440
<v Speaker 4>of the Gospels seating this pretty much same thing hold on.

1063
01:02:59.280 --> 01:03:02.519
<v Speaker 4>So anyway, So it's Matthew ten thirty nine, and it

1064
01:03:02.559 --> 01:03:05.840
<v Speaker 4>says whoever finds his life in this world will eventually

1065
01:03:05.920 --> 01:03:08.679
<v Speaker 4>lose it through death, and whoever loses his life in

1066
01:03:08.719 --> 01:03:11.039
<v Speaker 4>this world for my sake will find it. So I

1067
01:03:11.039 --> 01:03:14.320
<v Speaker 4>think it's very interesting because there are some universal truths

1068
01:03:14.360 --> 01:03:16.199
<v Speaker 4>that are just that are kind of like a thread

1069
01:03:16.880 --> 01:03:21.400
<v Speaker 4>that carries through and then it finally finds its final

1070
01:03:21.519 --> 01:03:25.480
<v Speaker 4>resting place and for me as a as a Christian.

1071
01:03:25.239 --> 01:03:29.119
<v Speaker 1>In the Gospels, yeah, it makes you think of in

1072
01:03:29.559 --> 01:03:32.199
<v Speaker 1>the Last Battle when Jill and Neusis are talking about

1073
01:03:32.320 --> 01:03:33.719
<v Speaker 1>what they're going to do do we just kind of

1074
01:03:33.760 --> 01:03:37.239
<v Speaker 1>run away and it looks like everything's going downhill and

1075
01:03:37.559 --> 01:03:40.400
<v Speaker 1>Jill says, what's the point. We could run away and

1076
01:03:40.400 --> 01:03:43.800
<v Speaker 1>eventually we die old age in our nursing home or whatever,

1077
01:03:44.599 --> 01:03:48.159
<v Speaker 1>or we can stand and actually make our lives worth

1078
01:03:48.320 --> 01:03:53.679
<v Speaker 1>something now. And you know, Augustine talks about this in

1079
01:03:53.760 --> 01:03:56.880
<v Speaker 1>his Contra Fauston when he's talking about kind of laying

1080
01:03:56.880 --> 01:03:59.719
<v Speaker 1>out his just war doctrine, and he's saying that the

1081
01:03:59.760 --> 01:04:03.719
<v Speaker 1>real evil of war is not the loss of life.

1082
01:04:03.920 --> 01:04:07.039
<v Speaker 1>I mean, as much as that might be a temporary tragedy,

1083
01:04:07.360 --> 01:04:10.000
<v Speaker 1>like people are going to die anyways, we're dealing with mortals.

1084
01:04:10.239 --> 01:04:13.920
<v Speaker 1>He says that the real evils of war or is

1085
01:04:13.960 --> 01:04:16.840
<v Speaker 1>the fact that it tends to provoke a love of

1086
01:04:17.480 --> 01:04:20.840
<v Speaker 1>violence and you know, hatred and carnage and these sorts

1087
01:04:20.840 --> 01:04:23.320
<v Speaker 1>of things that the real evils of war, or that

1088
01:04:23.360 --> 01:04:27.800
<v Speaker 1>it tends to provoke sin, It tends to provoke that

1089
01:04:27.840 --> 01:04:30.360
<v Speaker 1>which leads to death of the soul, which is a

1090
01:04:30.519 --> 01:04:34.039
<v Speaker 1>far more serious tragedy than simply the death of our

1091
01:04:34.039 --> 01:04:39.199
<v Speaker 1>mortal lives, because we're all going to die. What matters

1092
01:04:39.239 --> 01:04:41.400
<v Speaker 1>is how we live, and that it's going to be

1093
01:04:41.519 --> 01:04:44.480
<v Speaker 1>very different depending on who you are. So yeah, I

1094
01:04:44.519 --> 01:04:46.719
<v Speaker 1>think that's a great line, and I just a great

1095
01:04:46.920 --> 01:04:48.960
<v Speaker 1>verse here, and I just want to read it again.

1096
01:04:49.559 --> 01:04:52.280
<v Speaker 1>The cowardly man thinks he'll live forever if he keeps

1097
01:04:52.320 --> 01:04:54.960
<v Speaker 1>away from fighting, but old age won't grant him a

1098
01:04:55.000 --> 01:04:59.320
<v Speaker 1>truth even if spears spare him. Makes me think the

1099
01:04:59.440 --> 01:05:03.880
<v Speaker 1>iconic line from William Wallace and Brave Heart that you know,

1100
01:05:04.199 --> 01:05:07.119
<v Speaker 1>all men die, but not all men truly live. And

1101
01:05:07.519 --> 01:05:09.559
<v Speaker 1>I guess that's true. And I think it's good northern

1102
01:05:09.599 --> 01:05:17.039
<v Speaker 1>wisdom here, or actually the diverse here. Right before that,

1103
01:05:17.400 --> 01:05:20.800
<v Speaker 1>it's also another good one, silent and thoughtful. If Prince's

1104
01:05:20.880 --> 01:05:24.800
<v Speaker 1>son should be and bold in fighting, cheerful and marry,

1105
01:05:24.960 --> 01:05:28.679
<v Speaker 1>every man should be until he comes to death. And

1106
01:05:28.719 --> 01:05:30.639
<v Speaker 1>so at the same time we're talking about the inevitability

1107
01:05:30.639 --> 01:05:33.199
<v Speaker 1>of death. You know, it says here be cheerful and

1108
01:05:33.239 --> 01:05:38.880
<v Speaker 1>mary when you're being bold and fighting, that you know

1109
01:05:39.159 --> 01:05:41.599
<v Speaker 1>when you are. It's like Chesterton said of angels, right

1110
01:05:41.599 --> 01:05:43.639
<v Speaker 1>that they can fly because they don't take them they

1111
01:05:43.960 --> 01:05:48.599
<v Speaker 1>because they take themselves lightly. So too. I think we're

1112
01:05:48.639 --> 01:05:51.760
<v Speaker 1>getting something simwhear here that when you take your life

1113
01:05:52.000 --> 01:05:55.519
<v Speaker 1>lightly in relation to your mortality, can actually enjoy it

1114
01:05:55.599 --> 01:05:57.559
<v Speaker 1>more even when you're doing hard things.

1115
01:05:58.599 --> 01:05:59.760
<v Speaker 4>I try to live by that.

1116
01:06:00.599 --> 01:06:06.000
<v Speaker 2>M I wrote another one down that I also This

1117
01:06:06.159 --> 01:06:09.119
<v Speaker 2>is not on kind of the same topic, but it

1118
01:06:09.199 --> 01:06:13.119
<v Speaker 2>said something to the effect of everyone is someone at

1119
01:06:13.159 --> 01:06:16.519
<v Speaker 2>home though he has but two goats and a thatched roof.

1120
01:06:17.880 --> 01:06:21.320
<v Speaker 2>I just felt that, like one, it's like showing that

1121
01:06:21.440 --> 01:06:27.159
<v Speaker 2>like everybody you know has this kind of inherent dignity

1122
01:06:27.199 --> 01:06:29.639
<v Speaker 2>no matter who you know and what they are, and

1123
01:06:29.639 --> 01:06:32.199
<v Speaker 2>and that no matter what you.

1124
01:06:32.360 --> 01:06:35.320
<v Speaker 6>Have, it's like the fact that you.

1125
01:06:35.400 --> 01:06:39.480
<v Speaker 2>Have a home, you know, you you're somebody because like

1126
01:06:39.880 --> 01:06:42.639
<v Speaker 2>you know that that there's that there's that there's a

1127
01:06:42.639 --> 01:06:46.760
<v Speaker 2>dignity tied to you having a home, no matter what

1128
01:06:46.840 --> 01:06:50.000
<v Speaker 2>it is, whether you're a you know, a goat herd

1129
01:06:50.079 --> 01:06:53.480
<v Speaker 2>in his hut or like a lord in his meat hall.

1130
01:06:53.840 --> 01:06:57.000
<v Speaker 2>You know it it it doesn't matter. At home, you're

1131
01:06:57.480 --> 01:06:59.360
<v Speaker 2>you know king essentially, you know.

1132
01:07:00.719 --> 01:07:04.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I think that's a good point, and there's another

1133
01:07:04.280 --> 01:07:07.320
<v Speaker 1>somewhere in here that hits on that theme. And I

1134
01:07:07.320 --> 01:07:09.760
<v Speaker 1>feel like easily could have been written by Marcus Aurelius

1135
01:07:09.800 --> 01:07:12.920
<v Speaker 1>when it says, you know, it doesn't matter if you're rich,

1136
01:07:12.960 --> 01:07:16.159
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't matter if you're poor, and your wealth or

1137
01:07:16.199 --> 01:07:20.960
<v Speaker 1>poverty doesn't necessarily, you know, have a direct relation with

1138
01:07:21.360 --> 01:07:24.320
<v Speaker 1>other people. Maybe that's just your fate and you need

1139
01:07:24.360 --> 01:07:28.639
<v Speaker 1>to be okay with that. And so, you know, even

1140
01:07:28.679 --> 01:07:32.079
<v Speaker 1>in a culture that does prize treasure, you know, this

1141
01:07:32.480 --> 01:07:37.280
<v Speaker 1>is a plundering culture. At the same time, we see

1142
01:07:37.320 --> 01:07:39.360
<v Speaker 1>that the path of wisdom is not just about the

1143
01:07:39.360 --> 01:07:43.719
<v Speaker 1>accumulation of stuff. It's about finding contentment wherever you are,

1144
01:07:43.840 --> 01:07:47.320
<v Speaker 1>whatever your station is. And I think that's something good

1145
01:07:47.360 --> 01:07:48.880
<v Speaker 1>and something that we can take away.

1146
01:07:51.079 --> 01:07:53.280
<v Speaker 2>I wonder how much of that has been lost in

1147
01:07:53.360 --> 01:07:57.840
<v Speaker 2>the kind of philosophy that you you see in popular culture.

1148
01:07:57.920 --> 01:07:59.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I'm going to rip this right from termin

1149
01:08:00.320 --> 01:08:02.679
<v Speaker 2>but you know, there is no fate but what you make,

1150
01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:09.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, So in our society, which is very achievement oriented,

1151
01:08:10.639 --> 01:08:13.960
<v Speaker 2>I wonder how much of that sort of contentment with

1152
01:08:14.079 --> 01:08:18.640
<v Speaker 2>your lot, or contentment with the vocation God has called

1153
01:08:18.680 --> 01:08:21.439
<v Speaker 2>for you is lost by that.

1154
01:08:25.359 --> 01:08:28.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think that is a good point, and it

1155
01:08:28.359 --> 01:08:30.479
<v Speaker 1>goes back to what we were talked about earlier about

1156
01:08:31.119 --> 01:08:34.560
<v Speaker 1>are we finding ourselves within the broader context or are

1157
01:08:34.640 --> 01:08:39.960
<v Speaker 1>we contextualizing everything within ourselves. Is there a place for

1158
01:08:40.039 --> 01:08:45.119
<v Speaker 1>us to rest? Or do we have to be Nietzsche's obermentioned,

1159
01:08:45.159 --> 01:08:48.039
<v Speaker 1>you know, we have to constantly go forth basically being

1160
01:08:48.079 --> 01:08:51.000
<v Speaker 1>our own gods, forging the path as we walk on it.

1161
01:08:51.520 --> 01:08:54.680
<v Speaker 1>Or do we come to find that maybe our path

1162
01:08:54.760 --> 01:08:59.359
<v Speaker 1>is already laid out for us? And I almost quoted

1163
01:08:59.680 --> 01:09:02.720
<v Speaker 1>Glad there, which she says, you know, don't be overly

1164
01:09:02.760 --> 01:09:05.000
<v Speaker 1>concerned about, you know, the way that you go. Maybe

1165
01:09:05.039 --> 01:09:07.760
<v Speaker 1>maybe your path is already before you, and basically your

1166
01:09:07.800 --> 01:09:10.720
<v Speaker 1>your job is simply to discover it and to walk

1167
01:09:10.720 --> 01:09:12.840
<v Speaker 1>on it, not to forge it, not to create it.

1168
01:09:13.079 --> 01:09:14.920
<v Speaker 1>Will you find the path that's already laid out for you?

1169
01:09:16.079 --> 01:09:18.119
<v Speaker 4>Well, I would just posit to say, from a very

1170
01:09:18.239 --> 01:09:22.399
<v Speaker 4>humble station of a stay at home wife that you know,

1171
01:09:22.840 --> 01:09:25.680
<v Speaker 4>it's kind of interesting because this has been a journey

1172
01:09:25.720 --> 01:09:31.880
<v Speaker 4>for me because I left my career so worldly, I

1173
01:09:31.920 --> 01:09:34.800
<v Speaker 4>don't really have much of anything at all, and so

1174
01:09:35.039 --> 01:09:39.319
<v Speaker 4>I have found much contentment outside of these kind of

1175
01:09:39.319 --> 01:09:42.520
<v Speaker 4>worldly treasures for that very reason. So I would say

1176
01:09:42.520 --> 01:09:46.079
<v Speaker 4>to you, or to those listening that whoever of you

1177
01:09:46.359 --> 01:09:48.399
<v Speaker 4>has a wife who is a stay at home wife

1178
01:09:48.479 --> 01:09:51.720
<v Speaker 4>is very wide in this regard, and you should probably

1179
01:09:51.880 --> 01:09:52.920
<v Speaker 4>ask and listen.

1180
01:09:55.279 --> 01:09:59.079
<v Speaker 6>Well said, I think that that goes back to what

1181
01:09:59.119 --> 01:10:02.920
<v Speaker 6>you're saying before and about how whoever you know loses

1182
01:10:03.279 --> 01:10:07.600
<v Speaker 6>their life will find it that, you know, let letting

1183
01:10:07.720 --> 01:10:13.760
<v Speaker 6>go of sort of worldly attitudes and priorities can help

1184
01:10:13.840 --> 01:10:16.239
<v Speaker 6>us find, you know, what's really valuable.

1185
01:10:17.560 --> 01:10:20.720
<v Speaker 4>It also helps us have a better understanding of truth too,

1186
01:10:20.880 --> 01:10:24.720
<v Speaker 4>I will say, because it's like you, it's a growth,

1187
01:10:24.880 --> 01:10:27.119
<v Speaker 4>like it's a journey, but it's like you, you have

1188
01:10:27.159 --> 01:10:33.880
<v Speaker 4>a better being outside. You have a better compass towards

1189
01:10:33.920 --> 01:10:36.640
<v Speaker 4>what truth is and what truth is not, whereas sometimes

1190
01:10:36.640 --> 01:10:39.720
<v Speaker 4>you are led by your own biases when you are

1191
01:10:39.800 --> 01:10:43.520
<v Speaker 4>in kind of like the societal structure. And I just

1192
01:10:43.560 --> 01:10:47.239
<v Speaker 4>say that as someone purely from being within the structure

1193
01:10:47.279 --> 01:10:49.600
<v Speaker 4>and then being kind of outside of the structure in

1194
01:10:49.600 --> 01:10:54.399
<v Speaker 4>a certain sense, because it's like you're you feel as

1195
01:10:54.439 --> 01:10:58.520
<v Speaker 4>though you can you are compelled to speak those truths

1196
01:10:58.880 --> 01:11:02.159
<v Speaker 4>in a way that maybe you felt hindered previously.

1197
01:11:04.399 --> 01:11:09.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and along those lines, I do appreciate the emphasis

1198
01:11:09.000 --> 01:11:12.319
<v Speaker 1>we find in this text in these proverbs about the

1199
01:11:12.439 --> 01:11:16.479
<v Speaker 1>right kind of companionship. We get some proverbs that in

1200
01:11:16.520 --> 01:11:22.279
<v Speaker 1>many ways mirror the proverbs of scripture, like when in

1201
01:11:22.640 --> 01:11:26.079
<v Speaker 1>verse one twenty four, here it says the true mingling

1202
01:11:26.119 --> 01:11:28.840
<v Speaker 1>of kinship when a man can tell someone all his thoughts,

1203
01:11:29.319 --> 01:11:31.960
<v Speaker 1>anything is better than to be fickle. And then he

1204
01:11:32.119 --> 01:11:35.920
<v Speaker 1>is no true friend who only says pleasant things. You know,

1205
01:11:35.960 --> 01:11:38.079
<v Speaker 1>it's the the wounds of a friend, or better than

1206
01:11:38.119 --> 01:11:41.520
<v Speaker 1>the kisses of an enemy, as the biblical proverbs tell us.

1207
01:11:41.880 --> 01:11:45.159
<v Speaker 1>And so the sense that we need companions, we need

1208
01:11:45.199 --> 01:11:47.439
<v Speaker 1>people around us who are going to tell us the truth,

1209
01:11:47.720 --> 01:11:50.079
<v Speaker 1>who aren't going to let us get swept up in

1210
01:11:50.159 --> 01:11:53.039
<v Speaker 1>you know, the system, or simply our own desires or

1211
01:11:53.079 --> 01:11:57.640
<v Speaker 1>our own myopic vision, but are going to bring us

1212
01:11:57.640 --> 01:12:00.880
<v Speaker 1>into the broader context of goodness. Of it's a virtue

1213
01:12:00.880 --> 01:12:03.520
<v Speaker 1>of faith. And then just I mean a little bit

1214
01:12:03.640 --> 01:12:08.960
<v Speaker 1>past that. It says here Odin talking, He says, I

1215
01:12:09.000 --> 01:12:12.079
<v Speaker 1>advise you Loadfafnir to take this advice. It'll be useful

1216
01:12:12.079 --> 01:12:14.239
<v Speaker 1>if you learn it. Do you good if you have

1217
01:12:14.359 --> 01:12:18.359
<v Speaker 1>it where you recognize evil, call it evil, and give

1218
01:12:18.479 --> 01:12:23.720
<v Speaker 1>no truth to your enemies. That right there is I

1219
01:12:23.720 --> 01:12:27.920
<v Speaker 1>think a bit of wisdom that very much counteracts what

1220
01:12:27.920 --> 01:12:32.319
<v Speaker 1>you're going to hear today, when today, I mean everyone's

1221
01:12:32.359 --> 01:12:34.600
<v Speaker 1>saying he piece piece where there is no peace, that

1222
01:12:34.640 --> 01:12:38.960
<v Speaker 1>we're trying to disrupt any kind of claim of goodness

1223
01:12:39.119 --> 01:12:41.640
<v Speaker 1>of evil. This is something that I deal with constantly,

1224
01:12:42.159 --> 01:12:46.800
<v Speaker 1>teaching my public university philosophy students that nobody wants to

1225
01:12:46.840 --> 01:12:50.279
<v Speaker 1>call anything wrong. We just want to tolerate everything. At

1226
01:12:50.319 --> 01:12:52.399
<v Speaker 1>the same time, I'll ask them how many of you

1227
01:12:52.439 --> 01:12:55.239
<v Speaker 1>intended to vote in November, and they're pretty much all

1228
01:12:55.279 --> 01:12:58.600
<v Speaker 1>raise their hands, and so I ask them, Okay, if

1229
01:12:58.600 --> 01:13:00.840
<v Speaker 1>we're just going to tolerate everything, say that nobody's right

1230
01:13:00.920 --> 01:13:03.720
<v Speaker 1>or wrong, what business do you have voting on who's

1231
01:13:03.760 --> 01:13:07.640
<v Speaker 1>going to implement a certain ideology on your neighbors? And

1232
01:13:07.760 --> 01:13:11.920
<v Speaker 1>so this postmodern radical relativism where nothing is good or evil,

1233
01:13:11.920 --> 01:13:14.279
<v Speaker 1>there is no up or down. It's not how anybody

1234
01:13:14.319 --> 01:13:18.399
<v Speaker 1>actually lives, you know. The same time, sometimes I'll ask

1235
01:13:18.399 --> 01:13:21.239
<v Speaker 1>my students things like how many of you are big

1236
01:13:21.279 --> 01:13:25.840
<v Speaker 1>fans of justice? And everyone raises their hand, and then

1237
01:13:26.560 --> 01:13:29.399
<v Speaker 1>I help them understand that this doesn't make sense in

1238
01:13:29.520 --> 01:13:32.319
<v Speaker 1>light of the fact that they're telling me there's no

1239
01:13:32.319 --> 01:13:34.880
<v Speaker 1>norms for how to live and that there's no such thing,

1240
01:13:34.920 --> 01:13:38.720
<v Speaker 1>as you know, right or wrong, left or right. But

1241
01:13:39.119 --> 01:13:41.039
<v Speaker 1>you go back to the Pegans, and yeah, maybe we

1242
01:13:41.159 --> 01:13:43.479
<v Speaker 1>say that sometimes they didn't get things right in what

1243
01:13:43.520 --> 01:13:45.760
<v Speaker 1>they called good or evil, but they don't have a

1244
01:13:45.760 --> 01:13:48.039
<v Speaker 1>problem recognizing there is such a thing as good and evil,

1245
01:13:49.119 --> 01:13:54.840
<v Speaker 1>and in mishandling of justice is a much better reality

1246
01:13:55.279 --> 01:13:59.279
<v Speaker 1>than denying justice altogether, because at least a mishandling of

1247
01:13:59.399 --> 01:14:02.600
<v Speaker 1>justice has the potential of being made right. But when

1248
01:14:02.600 --> 01:14:06.159
<v Speaker 1>you eliminate the very foundations of justice, well, now we're

1249
01:14:06.199 --> 01:14:07.920
<v Speaker 1>in a place that none of us actually want to

1250
01:14:07.960 --> 01:14:12.479
<v Speaker 1>live in. And so I think that a lot of

1251
01:14:14.239 --> 01:14:17.800
<v Speaker 1>the pushback that we can and that we should give

1252
01:14:17.840 --> 01:14:21.520
<v Speaker 1>to postmodernism really comes down to just helping people recognize

1253
01:14:22.000 --> 01:14:23.960
<v Speaker 1>that they don't actually believe the things that they say

1254
01:14:24.000 --> 01:14:31.760
<v Speaker 1>that they believe, and helping them to at least recover

1255
01:14:31.920 --> 01:14:35.680
<v Speaker 1>the tools for calling things right or wrong, calling things

1256
01:14:35.720 --> 01:14:38.560
<v Speaker 1>evil or good. And maybe initially we don't arrive at

1257
01:14:38.560 --> 01:14:42.439
<v Speaker 1>the same definitions, but I think at least dealing with

1258
01:14:42.479 --> 01:14:45.199
<v Speaker 1>something like a standard gives us something to work with.

1259
01:14:46.239 --> 01:14:50.600
<v Speaker 1>And you know, sometimes when you're talking to the postmodern

1260
01:14:50.680 --> 01:14:53.880
<v Speaker 1>they're more likely to listen to pagan wisdom than explicitly

1261
01:14:53.960 --> 01:14:56.760
<v Speaker 1>Christian wisdom. But at the same time, the best of

1262
01:14:56.800 --> 01:14:58.720
<v Speaker 1>pagan wisdom is Christian wisdom.

1263
01:15:00.399 --> 01:15:00.880
<v Speaker 4>Agreed.

1264
01:15:02.600 --> 01:15:04.920
<v Speaker 1>But as I've been reading this, every once in a

1265
01:15:04.920 --> 01:15:08.920
<v Speaker 1>while I'll bring in one of these proverbs as my

1266
01:15:09.119 --> 01:15:14.279
<v Speaker 1>icebreaker conversations in class at the university, because you know,

1267
01:15:14.279 --> 01:15:16.760
<v Speaker 1>when you say, well, I'm going to talk a little

1268
01:15:16.800 --> 01:15:19.640
<v Speaker 1>bit about some Norse pagan wisdom. I mean, that's when

1269
01:15:19.680 --> 01:15:21.279
<v Speaker 1>all these postmoderns are going to open up their ears,

1270
01:15:21.319 --> 01:15:22.600
<v Speaker 1>and you know, they can think it's really interesting.

1271
01:15:24.399 --> 01:15:24.960
<v Speaker 4>I like that.

1272
01:15:25.479 --> 01:15:28.960
<v Speaker 2>I was recently I read last no, it was this

1273
01:15:29.079 --> 01:15:32.359
<v Speaker 2>year I read through the new edition of Tolkien's Letters,

1274
01:15:32.359 --> 01:15:38.399
<v Speaker 2>the longer edition, and I was struck how hurt he

1275
01:15:38.760 --> 01:15:43.359
<v Speaker 2>was by the misuse of this mythology by the National

1276
01:15:43.399 --> 01:15:48.079
<v Speaker 2>Socialists in the nineteen forties. And he expresses in his

1277
01:15:48.199 --> 01:15:53.239
<v Speaker 2>letters how like, almost more than anything else is what

1278
01:15:53.399 --> 01:15:58.039
<v Speaker 2>made him just viscerally angry at the Nazis and at

1279
01:15:58.119 --> 01:16:03.720
<v Speaker 2>Hitler was that they made Norse a dirty word. You know,

1280
01:16:03.920 --> 01:16:10.319
<v Speaker 2>that they misused his beloved mythology for evil. You know.

1281
01:16:11.840 --> 01:16:14.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there's that one letter where he refers to Hitler

1282
01:16:14.560 --> 01:16:20.079
<v Speaker 1>as a ruddy little ignoramus. He's talking about how he's

1283
01:16:20.079 --> 01:16:22.920
<v Speaker 1>mishandled the Northern Mythos. And you know, he says that

1284
01:16:23.119 --> 01:16:25.920
<v Speaker 1>I think now at you know, he's middle age or whatever.

1285
01:16:25.920 --> 01:16:27.760
<v Speaker 1>I don't member what age exactly, but he says that,

1286
01:16:27.760 --> 01:16:29.560
<v Speaker 1>you know, at this age he has an older man,

1287
01:16:29.680 --> 01:16:32.119
<v Speaker 1>I'd be a better warrior than when I was in

1288
01:16:32.119 --> 01:16:35.239
<v Speaker 1>my twenties in combat because of you know, this great

1289
01:16:35.319 --> 01:16:40.000
<v Speaker 1>personal grudge I have against him. Yeah, and Lewis says

1290
01:16:40.000 --> 01:16:44.960
<v Speaker 1>something very similar and said is theology poetry or one

1291
01:16:44.960 --> 01:16:49.199
<v Speaker 1>of his essays when he says that, you know, it

1292
01:16:49.600 --> 01:16:54.039
<v Speaker 1>really enraged him as well, that they so misused the

1293
01:16:54.079 --> 01:16:56.479
<v Speaker 1>Northern Mythos. But he says, and then the Nazis really

1294
01:16:56.479 --> 01:16:59.640
<v Speaker 1>gave it all back by fundamentally misunderstanding what they were

1295
01:16:59.640 --> 01:17:03.640
<v Speaker 1>dealing with. And so you know, Lewis says that I

1296
01:17:03.680 --> 01:17:07.720
<v Speaker 1>get much more fun with odin that who I don't

1297
01:17:07.760 --> 01:17:12.199
<v Speaker 1>believe in, than these Nazis do through their misapprehension of

1298
01:17:12.279 --> 01:17:12.800
<v Speaker 1>this ideal.

1299
01:17:13.399 --> 01:17:16.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, was it was it Lewis who said that like that,

1300
01:17:16.680 --> 01:17:19.760
<v Speaker 2>the Nazis think they're the heroes of the Norse myths, where.

1301
01:17:19.600 --> 01:17:22.840
<v Speaker 5>They're really the the monsters, the monsters.

1302
01:17:22.960 --> 01:17:27.760
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, this is why I've stated in the past that

1303
01:17:28.560 --> 01:17:31.000
<v Speaker 4>while I would love to be one of the heroes

1304
01:17:31.000 --> 01:17:34.720
<v Speaker 4>of the Fellowship, I am but gullum and must always

1305
01:17:34.840 --> 01:17:36.479
<v Speaker 4>crucify myself for that.

1306
01:17:39.560 --> 01:17:44.039
<v Speaker 1>Yes, but hopefully you have a better ending.

1307
01:17:46.399 --> 01:17:48.880
<v Speaker 4>Oh oh, we all hope for a much better eddude

1308
01:17:48.880 --> 01:17:49.119
<v Speaker 4>than that.

1309
01:17:49.439 --> 01:17:55.680
<v Speaker 1>Yes, yes, no, one thing, one more thing. And this

1310
01:17:55.720 --> 01:18:00.079
<v Speaker 1>doesn't necessarily need to lead into a full conversation, but

1311
01:18:00.279 --> 01:18:04.720
<v Speaker 1>I find interesting that you look at the Biblical proverbs

1312
01:18:04.760 --> 01:18:07.279
<v Speaker 1>and a lot of warnings about, you know, don't go

1313
01:18:07.399 --> 01:18:10.359
<v Speaker 1>to the prostitute, don't go to the adulteress, that that

1314
01:18:10.439 --> 01:18:14.800
<v Speaker 1>sort of thing. We get something similar but a little

1315
01:18:14.800 --> 01:18:18.760
<v Speaker 1>bit different in the Voles or in the Havamal, where

1316
01:18:18.760 --> 01:18:22.840
<v Speaker 1>it says in a witch's arm you should never sleep,

1317
01:18:23.000 --> 01:18:25.520
<v Speaker 1>so she encloses you with her limbs, and so it's

1318
01:18:25.560 --> 01:18:27.600
<v Speaker 1>the same kind of idea, but instead of dealing with

1319
01:18:27.600 --> 01:18:30.399
<v Speaker 1>the prostitute, now we're dealing with the witch, which I mean,

1320
01:18:30.439 --> 01:18:31.920
<v Speaker 1>I guess we're dealing with more or less the same

1321
01:18:31.960 --> 01:18:34.079
<v Speaker 1>thing that in both context where we're working with the

1322
01:18:34.640 --> 01:18:38.680
<v Speaker 1>siren imagery here. But I think it's interesting that you know,

1323
01:18:39.039 --> 01:18:44.800
<v Speaker 1>the the seductress of the Havamal is the witch who

1324
01:18:44.880 --> 01:18:48.439
<v Speaker 1>is going to consume your soul essentially, you know, by

1325
01:18:48.640 --> 01:18:49.319
<v Speaker 1>resting with her.

1326
01:18:51.359 --> 01:18:53.680
<v Speaker 4>I'm so sorry, but every time people say witches, I

1327
01:18:53.760 --> 01:18:55.640
<v Speaker 4>just go straight to money, python.

1328
01:18:57.760 --> 01:19:01.600
<v Speaker 1>Well, anything else that you want to say about anything.

1329
01:19:03.840 --> 01:19:05.119
<v Speaker 1>It's okay if not, But I don't want to cut

1330
01:19:05.119 --> 01:19:05.640
<v Speaker 1>any one off.

1331
01:19:06.560 --> 01:19:11.760
<v Speaker 2>No, I would just say that I really appreciate Tolkien's

1332
01:19:11.880 --> 01:19:17.600
<v Speaker 2>sort of uplifting of this material and and like kind

1333
01:19:17.600 --> 01:19:21.960
<v Speaker 2>of fully christianizing it. You know, where Middle Earth is

1334
01:19:21.960 --> 01:19:27.119
<v Speaker 2>is like Norse in its bones, you know, and it's it.

1335
01:19:27.680 --> 01:19:31.600
<v Speaker 2>I just appreciate how he was, how his his whole

1336
01:19:31.640 --> 01:19:35.479
<v Speaker 2>life's work was to essentially take these these myths, these

1337
01:19:35.520 --> 01:19:39.680
<v Speaker 2>stories that he loved, and yet you know, fully fully

1338
01:19:39.920 --> 01:19:46.039
<v Speaker 2>infuse it with a Christian worldview, a Christian ethos. You know.

1339
01:19:46.159 --> 01:19:50.199
<v Speaker 2>I just think that that's that that's an amazing, you know,

1340
01:19:50.920 --> 01:19:54.279
<v Speaker 2>tribute to these stories. And also like you know, in

1341
01:19:54.319 --> 01:19:58.800
<v Speaker 2>a way, he moves beyond them, you know, like even

1342
01:19:58.800 --> 01:20:03.399
<v Speaker 2>though these are like you know, you know, amazing you know, mythological,

1343
01:20:04.239 --> 01:20:07.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, texts that have endured for for potentially thousands

1344
01:20:07.840 --> 01:20:10.960
<v Speaker 2>of years, in some way told, Yeah, Tolkien moves beyond

1345
01:20:11.000 --> 01:20:12.800
<v Speaker 2>them into a new space.

1346
01:20:14.560 --> 01:20:19.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, definitely. He he sees the logosts of these stories,

1347
01:20:19.840 --> 01:20:22.720
<v Speaker 1>the true spirit of these stories, and that's what he

1348
01:20:22.760 --> 01:20:26.199
<v Speaker 1>brings out. He essentially gives us, you know, like uh,

1349
01:20:26.359 --> 01:20:29.640
<v Speaker 1>you know, Gandalf comes back and says, I'm Sorremond as

1350
01:20:29.640 --> 01:20:32.279
<v Speaker 1>he should have been. Tolkian gives us the Northern Mythos

1351
01:20:32.279 --> 01:20:36.800
<v Speaker 1>as it should have been. It's the the fuller story.

1352
01:20:37.159 --> 01:20:41.760
<v Speaker 1>But you definitely see the the shadow of that spirit

1353
01:20:42.000 --> 01:20:45.399
<v Speaker 1>in these original texts. And and I think that that's

1354
01:20:45.439 --> 01:20:49.319
<v Speaker 1>what makes for good stories, especially good fantasy, but really

1355
01:20:49.600 --> 01:20:52.479
<v Speaker 1>any good story. I think it's going to be in

1356
01:20:52.520 --> 01:20:57.000
<v Speaker 1>tune with the lagos. That makes great stories great, that

1357
01:20:57.079 --> 01:21:00.199
<v Speaker 1>makes great literature great. And where I think a lot

1358
01:21:00.199 --> 01:21:03.760
<v Speaker 1>of people go wrong is they'll read Tolkien and then say, well,

1359
01:21:03.760 --> 01:21:05.840
<v Speaker 1>I want to go write stories like Tolkien, and so

1360
01:21:05.920 --> 01:21:09.279
<v Speaker 1>then they start writing basically knockoffs. Whereas if you want

1361
01:21:09.279 --> 01:21:11.119
<v Speaker 1>to write like a Tolkien, you want to write like

1362
01:21:11.119 --> 01:21:13.600
<v Speaker 1>a Lewis, you have to read the kinds of things

1363
01:21:13.600 --> 01:21:15.760
<v Speaker 1>that they read. You have to do the kinds of

1364
01:21:15.800 --> 01:21:19.680
<v Speaker 1>things that they did. And so I think that you

1365
01:21:19.800 --> 01:21:23.000
<v Speaker 1>have to be in tune with these kinds of world

1366
01:21:23.079 --> 01:21:27.520
<v Speaker 1>shaping stories if you want to create a world shaping story.

1367
01:21:28.399 --> 01:21:30.359
<v Speaker 2>I will say that as a writer. That is something

1368
01:21:30.359 --> 01:21:33.279
<v Speaker 2>I've begun to do myself, and which is why, like

1369
01:21:33.359 --> 01:21:36.960
<v Speaker 2>I loved this opportunity to begin reading the Ata, because

1370
01:21:37.359 --> 01:21:40.840
<v Speaker 2>I realized that that as a writer, that that very

1371
01:21:40.880 --> 01:21:45.439
<v Speaker 2>thing when I write fantasy, I'm very Tolkienian. And as

1372
01:21:45.520 --> 01:21:48.840
<v Speaker 2>much as I adore Tolkien and the Lord of the Rings.

1373
01:21:48.920 --> 01:21:50.640
<v Speaker 5>I had this sense that I'm like, I think I

1374
01:21:50.720 --> 01:21:51.560
<v Speaker 5>need to go back.

1375
01:21:51.359 --> 01:21:54.840
<v Speaker 2>To the sources though, and really like like try to

1376
01:21:54.960 --> 01:21:58.560
<v Speaker 2>understand you know, the Lord of the Rings in context

1377
01:21:58.560 --> 01:22:01.600
<v Speaker 2>of like where it comes from, you know, and and

1378
01:22:01.680 --> 01:22:04.439
<v Speaker 2>to to get these stories like kind of at the

1379
01:22:04.479 --> 01:22:07.439
<v Speaker 2>tap root, you know, of where a lot of these

1380
01:22:07.680 --> 01:22:10.760
<v Speaker 2>ideas and stuff are are coming from. So I've I've started,

1381
01:22:10.960 --> 01:22:14.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, I'm now dipping into Norse mythology with the

1382
01:22:14.079 --> 01:22:17.000
<v Speaker 2>Eda's I've been all this year. I've been dipping in

1383
01:22:17.079 --> 01:22:20.880
<v Speaker 2>and out of the the the Arthurian legendary and the

1384
01:22:21.000 --> 01:22:24.800
<v Speaker 2>Arthurian mythos, and there's there's just a lot there that

1385
01:22:25.039 --> 01:22:27.880
<v Speaker 2>I can recognize where I'm like, oh, I see what

1386
01:22:27.960 --> 01:22:29.239
<v Speaker 2>he's done, you know.

1387
01:22:31.039 --> 01:22:34.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely, And so as far as just honing your

1388
01:22:34.159 --> 01:22:36.560
<v Speaker 1>own craft as well as getting a better understanding of

1389
01:22:36.560 --> 01:22:39.239
<v Speaker 1>people like Tolkien, like Lewis. I mean, obviously there are

1390
01:22:39.239 --> 01:22:41.279
<v Speaker 1>a lot of secondary texts on both of them that

1391
01:22:41.359 --> 01:22:43.760
<v Speaker 1>are well and good and I think are useful. But

1392
01:22:43.840 --> 01:22:45.600
<v Speaker 1>the best way to get into their minds is by

1393
01:22:45.640 --> 01:22:47.720
<v Speaker 1>doing the kinds of things that they did, reading the

1394
01:22:47.800 --> 01:22:50.000
<v Speaker 1>kinds of things that they read, which will help you

1395
01:22:50.039 --> 01:22:51.800
<v Speaker 1>to tap into that same spirit, but also go in

1396
01:22:51.840 --> 01:22:54.239
<v Speaker 1>your own direction with it, which I think is very

1397
01:22:54.319 --> 01:22:58.199
<v Speaker 1>useful to actually creating something that's really worth engaging in.

1398
01:22:58.560 --> 01:23:00.239
<v Speaker 1>I mean, don't get me wrong, it can be fun

1399
01:23:00.319 --> 01:23:02.479
<v Speaker 1>to do things that are just derivative, but it won't

1400
01:23:02.479 --> 01:23:06.399
<v Speaker 1>necessarily be good like good literature, right, it's not the

1401
01:23:06.479 --> 01:23:08.800
<v Speaker 1>probably the kind of legacy that you want to create.

1402
01:23:09.439 --> 01:23:12.640
<v Speaker 1>And now, at the same time, you know, especially if

1403
01:23:12.640 --> 01:23:15.119
<v Speaker 1>you are a writer or you want to be a writer,

1404
01:23:15.800 --> 01:23:17.359
<v Speaker 1>it can also be tempting as you move into this

1405
01:23:17.399 --> 01:23:19.960
<v Speaker 1>mentality to think I can't write anything until I read

1406
01:23:20.000 --> 01:23:23.640
<v Speaker 1>everything that's ever been written. That's definitely the temptation that

1407
01:23:23.680 --> 01:23:26.560
<v Speaker 1>I tend to move towards. Yep, need to.

1408
01:23:28.760 --> 01:23:28.920
<v Speaker 4>That.

1409
01:23:29.039 --> 01:23:33.359
<v Speaker 1>You know, I've never really tried to write fiction, but

1410
01:23:33.399 --> 01:23:35.319
<v Speaker 1>I have a number of things in my head that

1411
01:23:35.359 --> 01:23:37.359
<v Speaker 1>I want to work with. But I definitely have the

1412
01:23:37.439 --> 01:23:41.079
<v Speaker 1>sense of I'm not qualified until I read everything that's

1413
01:23:41.079 --> 01:23:44.119
<v Speaker 1>ever been written in the past. And of course that's

1414
01:23:44.119 --> 01:23:46.159
<v Speaker 1>the mentality you're never actually gonna do anything. And so

1415
01:23:46.279 --> 01:23:49.640
<v Speaker 1>it's that balance of you need to fill your mind

1416
01:23:49.720 --> 01:23:51.760
<v Speaker 1>with the right substance, but you also need to be

1417
01:23:51.960 --> 01:23:55.199
<v Speaker 1>willing to let that substance move into the places that

1418
01:23:55.239 --> 01:23:57.279
<v Speaker 1>you are meant to go with it, you know, find

1419
01:23:57.279 --> 01:24:01.760
<v Speaker 1>the path that's laid out for you. All right, cool,

1420
01:24:02.199 --> 01:24:04.720
<v Speaker 1>anything else that anyone wants to mention before we close

1421
01:24:04.760 --> 01:24:08.520
<v Speaker 1>it off? All right? Well, I think that this is

1422
01:24:08.640 --> 01:24:11.359
<v Speaker 1>a good chat, especially for you know, people who are

1423
01:24:11.359 --> 01:24:14.159
<v Speaker 1>not well versed in the material but are just exploring

1424
01:24:14.159 --> 01:24:16.359
<v Speaker 1>along the way or just joining for the conversation. I

1425
01:24:16.359 --> 01:24:18.960
<v Speaker 1>feel like this went well and I look forward to

1426
01:24:19.199 --> 01:24:22.279
<v Speaker 1>where we go next. In the ed up, I'll look

1427
01:24:22.319 --> 01:24:25.000
<v Speaker 1>ahead and let you know what will be including but

1428
01:24:25.199 --> 01:24:27.319
<v Speaker 1>thanks to one or two sections or so, and I

1429
01:24:27.399 --> 01:24:30.479
<v Speaker 1>look forward to discussing with you next month or even

1430
01:24:30.640 --> 01:24:32.600
<v Speaker 1>in the discord in the meantime, if you are in

1431
01:24:32.680 --> 01:24:35.319
<v Speaker 1>the discord. But that's where we'll leave it off for

1432
01:24:35.399 --> 01:24:44.159
<v Speaker 1>now until next time. God speed. Thank you again for

1433
01:24:44.199 --> 01:24:47.079
<v Speaker 1>listening to the Mythic Mind Fellowship podcast. Be sure to

1434
01:24:47.119 --> 01:24:49.479
<v Speaker 1>subscribe so you can follow along with the next conversation,

1435
01:24:49.680 --> 01:24:52.359
<v Speaker 1>which should drop in about a month or so. If

1436
01:24:52.359 --> 01:24:54.880
<v Speaker 1>you'd like more regular content, you can also subscribe to

1437
01:24:54.920 --> 01:24:58.239
<v Speaker 1>the Mythic Mind Legacy podcast and for the most content

1438
01:24:58.479 --> 01:25:01.239
<v Speaker 1>as well as the ability to join the conversations, you

1439
01:25:01.279 --> 01:25:04.560
<v Speaker 1>can become a patron at patreon dot com slash mythic Mind.

1440
01:25:05.159 --> 01:25:08.199
<v Speaker 1>But that's it for now until next time, God speed,