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<v Speaker 1>What's up everyone, and welcome back to the program. In

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<v Speaker 1>this episode, we're headed back up to Moscow, where we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to dive right back in to the IgG transcripts

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<v Speaker 1>that were recently released. Question why did you want AUTHROM

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<v Speaker 1>to do why STR testing? Answer? So, the reason for

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<v Speaker 1>why SDR testing is to utilize different investigative databases that

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<v Speaker 1>might be out there. I don't believe in this case

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<v Speaker 1>we ever did why STR testing. A lot of the

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<v Speaker 1>discussion was around preservation of the sample, or as much

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<v Speaker 1>of the sample as we could preserve, and so our

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<v Speaker 1>recommendation to them was to not proceed with the type

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<v Speaker 1>of testing at this time, to kind of see where

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<v Speaker 1>we were able to go with the traditional SNP testing

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<v Speaker 1>with the whole genome sequencing, and then we would maybe

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<v Speaker 1>potentially revisit why STR testing. I do remember some discussion

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<v Speaker 1>with David Middleman at AUTHRAM about if they were able

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<v Speaker 1>to bootstrap some of the whole genome sequencing in order

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<v Speaker 1>to develop a y profile that could be searchable from

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<v Speaker 1>the data that they had already developed, instead of using

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<v Speaker 1>additional sample to specifically develop a y STR profile or

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<v Speaker 1>any kind of why profile. Question, what does that mean bootstrapping.

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<v Speaker 1>Take me back, they have this DNA sample and then

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<v Speaker 1>do they have have they done those steps to get

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<v Speaker 1>to their SNP before you want bootstrapping done? Or at

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<v Speaker 1>what stage are you talking about? Answer? Essentially, it was

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<v Speaker 1>our understanding that they were in the process of or

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<v Speaker 1>had already obtained the whole genome sequencing profile, and so

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<v Speaker 1>our question to them was, is there a way to

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<v Speaker 1>develop a y STR profile from the genetic information that

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<v Speaker 1>you already have through the other method of testing? Question

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<v Speaker 1>and that's what you mean by bootstrap at a different

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<v Speaker 1>kind of analysis? Answer correct? Question Why would you want

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<v Speaker 1>to do that? Answer again to see if there was

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<v Speaker 1>a potential search why database that might be available out

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<v Speaker 1>there to identify genetic lineages. Question what does that mean

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<v Speaker 1>genetic lineages? Answer? So a why chromosome is passed down

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<v Speaker 1>from father to son, and so we would be looking

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<v Speaker 1>to see if we can identify a family line through

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<v Speaker 1>tracking the y chromosome DNA from father to son, to

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<v Speaker 1>grandfather all the way down to grandson and potentially over

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<v Speaker 1>multiple generations, so it would tie us into a family

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<v Speaker 1>line that could be investigated. Further question, did authorum bootstrap

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<v Speaker 1>and get the y STR for you. Answer. To my knowledge,

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<v Speaker 1>they never did anything with y STR testing, and to

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<v Speaker 1>my recollection, with my discussion with David, that wasn't possible

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<v Speaker 1>with the data that he had at that point. Question

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<v Speaker 1>it was impossible. Answer that it was not possible. Correct question,

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<v Speaker 1>thank you. Answer, I don't believe that was attempted. Again,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not familiar with the technology that he would have

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<v Speaker 1>had to use to do such a thing, So I'm

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<v Speaker 1>not aware if that was possible, if the technology didn't exist,

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<v Speaker 1>I just don't know. Question Okay, at some point did

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<v Speaker 1>talk to you about the work that they were doing?

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<v Speaker 1>Answer yes, Question and did they have recommendations? Answer? They did,

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<v Speaker 1>They had at least one recommendation that I remember. Question

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<v Speaker 1>When was that conversation? Answer? I don't remember exactly when

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<v Speaker 1>that conversation happened. Question, Well, let's put it between well,

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<v Speaker 1>when did they get the DNA to start with? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>So they got the DNA November twenty second, I believe.

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<v Speaker 1>Question And when they were notified to stop work. Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I believe the notification. The official notification was on December tenth,

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<v Speaker 1>if I remember correctly. Question, So, when they came back

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<v Speaker 1>to you with some recommendations where was that in relation

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<v Speaker 1>to the stop work answer, probably early December. I'm guessing

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<v Speaker 1>the actual work the laboratory, what I would call the

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<v Speaker 1>wet work in the laboratory would be the first couple

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<v Speaker 1>of weeks, probably before they would have turned it over

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<v Speaker 1>to the genealogist to be searching in the database and

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<v Speaker 1>those sorts of things. Question to make sure I'm with you,

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<v Speaker 1>wet work means DNA sample to where we get to

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<v Speaker 1>the whole genome sequencing, and then where we get to

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<v Speaker 1>an SMP. I know I'm skipping steps, but that's the

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<v Speaker 1>wet work answer correct. The laboratory work, so anything that

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<v Speaker 1>would be done in the physical laboratory, handling the sample,

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<v Speaker 1>putting it into tubes, adding liquids, things of that nature

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<v Speaker 1>that would be done in the laboratory, sequencing on an instrument,

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<v Speaker 1>that would all be done in the first week, several weeks. Question.

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<v Speaker 1>So after that they have a recommendation for you answer correct, question,

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<v Speaker 1>what's their recommendation to you? Answer? Their recommendation to memory,

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<v Speaker 1>to my recall, was that they had several individuals that

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<v Speaker 1>had the potential to be of interest in this investigation,

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<v Speaker 1>so they asked us if to further their family tree building,

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<v Speaker 1>if we could be in contact with individuals and see

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<v Speaker 1>if they were willing to contribute information into the database

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<v Speaker 1>that they were using in order to further the family

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<v Speaker 1>tree building and further the geological work. Question and where

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<v Speaker 1>in a close setting here, I'm going to ask you

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<v Speaker 1>to give me the last name. Answer, I don't recall

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<v Speaker 1>the last name. I'm sorry. Question was it your understanding

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<v Speaker 1>that these were four brothers? Answer? Yes? Question okay, what

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<v Speaker 1>did you do in relationship to these brothers? Answer? So,

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<v Speaker 1>we did some cursory work, just like in publicly accessible

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<v Speaker 1>information literally Google searches and things of that nature. What

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<v Speaker 1>our approach was is we didn't want to be approaching people,

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<v Speaker 1>especially with an investigation of this nature that really had

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<v Speaker 1>nothing to do with anything. We just wanted to make

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<v Speaker 1>sure that there was some reason why Athrom Laboratories was

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<v Speaker 1>asking us to go and ask these individuals to put

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<v Speaker 1>their DNA into the database that law enforcement can search.

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<v Speaker 1>So we just did some work to build just very

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<v Speaker 1>cursory family trees to see what connection these individuals might

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<v Speaker 1>have had and to verify these individuals were indeed brothers.

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<v Speaker 1>Things of that nature. Question, did you verify that the

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<v Speaker 1>four were brothers. Answer, I don't know that we would

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<v Speaker 1>use the word verify, but we believed that the information

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<v Speaker 1>was reliable that they had given us based on the

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<v Speaker 1>publicly accessible information. Question. Now, I know you said you

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<v Speaker 1>can't remember the last name of those brothers. We're here

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<v Speaker 1>today for Brian Coolberger's name, and he has been on

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<v Speaker 1>the news for two years. You know his name. That

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't the last name? Answer, that was not the last name. Question.

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<v Speaker 1>After you did the cursory work and the family tree,

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<v Speaker 1>what was next thing you did in relation to these

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<v Speaker 1>four brothers. Answer? We, at some point, and I don't

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<v Speaker 1>remember exactly when, we had asked our investigator, Detective Vicky

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<v Speaker 1>Gooch with the Idaho State Police, to reach out to

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<v Speaker 1>one of the brothers we believe had put information into

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<v Speaker 1>a genealogical database, ask him if he would be willing

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<v Speaker 1>to upload that into one of these databases so they

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<v Speaker 1>could further build out and use that information. She was,

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<v Speaker 1>I believe, initially able to contact the individual. He was

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<v Speaker 1>skeptical about her contact, and so there was another contact,

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<v Speaker 1>a three way call made between myself, Vicky and this

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<v Speaker 1>individual for purposes of trying to validate this was indeed

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<v Speaker 1>a law enforcement investigation. This was indeed a legitimate request,

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<v Speaker 1>and at that point that individual requested not to be

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<v Speaker 1>contacted again, was not interested in participating. Question During the

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<v Speaker 1>time leading up to that phone call, when you were

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<v Speaker 1>building your family tree, I know none of the four

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<v Speaker 1>brothers had the last name Coburger. That didn't come up

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<v Speaker 1>when you were building the family tree either. Did it

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<v Speaker 1>answer no question? After the brothers said don't contact me again,

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<v Speaker 1>what was the next thing you did answer? So I

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<v Speaker 1>don't remember again exactly when the timeframe was with that,

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<v Speaker 1>but I know that there were active discussions about having

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<v Speaker 1>a phone call with the agency and the prosecutor's office

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<v Speaker 1>about the work that was being done. There were requesting

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<v Speaker 1>updates from us of what is the authorm laboratory doing,

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<v Speaker 1>where are you at in the investigation, those type of things.

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<v Speaker 1>We were giving them updates via telephone, via telephonic conferences

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<v Speaker 1>with them, just giving them updates on we've delivered the sample,

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<v Speaker 1>We've done this, those sorts of updates, and then they

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<v Speaker 1>did a meeting with us to talk about the testing

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<v Speaker 1>question these conferences. Who participated in those answer most of

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<v Speaker 1>the time, to my memory, it was usually Idaho State

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<v Speaker 1>Police detectives. The Prosecutor's office might have also been privy

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<v Speaker 1>to some of those discussions. Again, just general updates about

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<v Speaker 1>where we were in the process. Question, Tell me about

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<v Speaker 1>the meeting. It sounds like there's a big meeting that happens. Answer.

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<v Speaker 1>There was a meeting to my knowledge, and I don't

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<v Speaker 1>remember exactly when, but probably the morning of December tenth,

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<v Speaker 1>when we had a meeting telephonic meeting is my memory,

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<v Speaker 1>with representatives from Moscow Police Department. I believe FBI had

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<v Speaker 1>representatives on the phone call ISP. I believe myself ISP

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<v Speaker 1>legal counsel, and I believe that the kernel of the

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<v Speaker 1>state Police was also on that phone call. Question and

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<v Speaker 1>what happened on that phone call? Answer. In that phone call,

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<v Speaker 1>we were asked to turn over any kind of investigative

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<v Speaker 1>records that we had, any kind of information that we

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<v Speaker 1>had to the FBI team. They provided me with an

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<v Speaker 1>email address to be able to provide that they were

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<v Speaker 1>requesting from us, which was to my memory, it was

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<v Speaker 1>the two the login information essentially, and it might have

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<v Speaker 1>been other things I'm not aware of, like packets and

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<v Speaker 1>things I'm not aware of the technical terms. But basically

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<v Speaker 1>they were asking us to provide that information to the

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<v Speaker 1>FBI investigator. Question and did you do that? Answer? Yes?

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<v Speaker 1>Question do you know what you provided to the FBI investigator? Answer? So,

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<v Speaker 1>what we asked for to be provided were the two

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<v Speaker 1>database searches of information so that those could be independently searched,

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<v Speaker 1>and we also asked them to cooperate and provide any

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<v Speaker 1>information that they needed to be able to further investigate. Question.

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<v Speaker 1>When you say two databases, do you mean two genetic

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<v Speaker 1>genealogy databases that allow law enforcement to search? Answer? Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>to my knowledge, these samples were searched in two genealogical

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<v Speaker 1>databases that allow searching by law enforcement. So ged match

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<v Speaker 1>and Family Tree DNA, I believe were the two that

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<v Speaker 1>were searched, and we were asked to provide those credentials

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<v Speaker 1>that information to the FBI. Question do you know what

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<v Speaker 1>ged match has? Two different databases ged match andged match

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<v Speaker 1>pro Answer yes, question is it because one of those

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<v Speaker 1>allows law enforcement and the other doesn't? Answer? I believe

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<v Speaker 1>that is correct. Question Okay, Idaho State Police Forensics Lab

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<v Speaker 1>direction that allow law enforcement search? Is that right? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>Our direction to them was to follow the interim policy

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<v Speaker 1>per contract with them and any other communication we would

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<v Speaker 1>have had with them would be to follow the interim policy.

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<v Speaker 1>Question does that mean yes, you expected them to only

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<v Speaker 1>search the allowed databases? Answer? I believe that is what

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<v Speaker 1>would have been communicated. That's our understanding of what the

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<v Speaker 1>interim policy means is they would search those databases that

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<v Speaker 1>are allowable to be searched by US as a law

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<v Speaker 1>enforcement entity. Question. After AUTHORM turns over whatever they turn

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<v Speaker 1>over to the FBI and you get the real pot

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<v Speaker 1>and they get paid, is that the end of it

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<v Speaker 1>with AUTHORAM for this case? Answer? So they provided us

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<v Speaker 1>a report after we had asked them to turn over

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<v Speaker 1>all of the information to the investigating agency and to

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<v Speaker 1>the FBI. They provided us with what was identified as

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<v Speaker 1>a preliminary report. I believe they titled it that because

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<v Speaker 1>it was not a final report the testing. We had

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<v Speaker 1>asked them to terminate the testing, but they were not

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<v Speaker 1>at a final result of a named to provide to

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<v Speaker 1>us an investigative lead to provide to us. Question why

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<v Speaker 1>was the decision made for the FBI to take this

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<v Speaker 1>over and not let AUTHORAM finish? Answer? I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>I can't speak to that question. In that meeting, there

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<v Speaker 1>was nothing stated about why we were going to do this. Answer.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't recall specific reasons, but they had to ask

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<v Speaker 1>us to transfer everything to the FBI. Question Okay, did

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<v Speaker 1>you take a look at the two profiles, the FBI

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<v Speaker 1>SNP profile and Authrum's SNP profile? Have you ever looked

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<v Speaker 1>at those? Answer? Do we look at those? Or did

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<v Speaker 1>I look at those? Question? Did you answer? I did not?

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<v Speaker 1>Question have you seen them? Answer no? Question would it

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<v Speaker 1>surprise you to know that the FBI profile was over

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<v Speaker 1>twice as big as authrooms? Answer again, I have no

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<v Speaker 1>knowledge of what the FBI did or didn't do. I

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<v Speaker 1>had no knowledge or yeah. Question how involved were you

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<v Speaker 1>with the FBI's process of their genetic genealogy Answer? I

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<v Speaker 1>was not involved other than to provide the samples to

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<v Speaker 1>where they asked us to send those samples to and

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<v Speaker 1>then from that point, I was not involved in the process.

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<v Speaker 1>Question have you become aware that they search databases that

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<v Speaker 1>are not allowed to be searched by law enforcement? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>Pure speculation is all I know, but I have no

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<v Speaker 1>firsthand knowledge of anything. Question okay, fair enough, thanks for that,

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<v Speaker 1>Miss Taylor, your honor. If I can have just a moment,

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<v Speaker 1>question I have a couple of questions for you about

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<v Speaker 1>some documentation. Answer sure, question the document that gave recommendations

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<v Speaker 1>for you to call some of the four brothers, Where

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<v Speaker 1>is that air? So I believe that that was provided

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<v Speaker 1>to us telephonically. I don't think there was like an

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<v Speaker 1>official report. I don't think there was an email. I

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<v Speaker 1>think it was names provided telephonically, and then those names

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<v Speaker 1>were actually provided as part of the report that came

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<v Speaker 1>out several days after the conclusion of the testing. Question Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>so you recognize those names from the report. Answer yes,

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<v Speaker 1>those had been provided to us beforehand. Question the work

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<v Speaker 1>that you were doing before trying to call one of

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<v Speaker 1>the brothers, where did you keep your documents for that? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>As far as the records that I'm sorry, I'm confused

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<v Speaker 1>on the question. Question, let me ask it better. You

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<v Speaker 1>did some work, research work before you and Detective Gooch

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<v Speaker 1>made the phone call to one of the brothers and

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<v Speaker 1>kind of built out a family tree and did some

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<v Speaker 1>other research. Where did you keep that? Answer? Those were

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<v Speaker 1>paper copies and those were just retained and then sent

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<v Speaker 1>to AUTHROM as part of us communicating back to them

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<v Speaker 1>basically saying this is the work we did we're providing

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<v Speaker 1>these back to you in case are helpful as you

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<v Speaker 1>continue to build out the family trees. Question do you

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<v Speaker 1>still have a copy of those? Answer yes, Question did

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<v Speaker 1>you document your attempt to get a voluntary sample from

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<v Speaker 1>one of the brothers? Answer? I do not believe so.

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<v Speaker 1>Question do you know if Detective Gooch wrote a police

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<v Speaker 1>report about that? Answer? I don't know. Question did you

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<v Speaker 1>provide any of her notes to you her investigative notes?

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<v Speaker 1>Answer not me. I don't know if she kept notes.

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<v Speaker 1>Question okay, did you watch her write anything down? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I did not. We were telephonic. I believe at that point.

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<v Speaker 1>Question it would be hard to see. Then have you

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<v Speaker 1>seen any documentation from that December tenth meeting? Answer not

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<v Speaker 1>to my knowledge. Question okay, any documentation that's come your

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<v Speaker 1>way from the FBI's work. Answer not to my knowledge.

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<v Speaker 1>Question have you turned over your work with the genetic

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<v Speaker 1>genealogy the help you were giving authrom Have you turned

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<v Speaker 1>that over to the prosecutor? Answer? I have not turned

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<v Speaker 1>over physical copies of anything. I believe that our agency

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<v Speaker 1>complied with the discovery or request. I don't know exactly

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<v Speaker 1>what was divided as part of that discovery. Request. Certainly

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<v Speaker 1>it is in an email document from me to AUTH

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<v Speaker 1>from laboratories, and as such, I would assume that that

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<v Speaker 1>would have gone as part of the discovery request. Question.

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<v Speaker 1>Are you talking about the discovery request that the defense made? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not exactly sure. We were just asked to comply.

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<v Speaker 1>We know that at any point our emails are discoverable,

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<v Speaker 1>and I believe the way the agency, the way the

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<v Speaker 1>ISP handles discovery requests, large discovery requests especially is to

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<v Speaker 1>do a quote email pull of anything that might be

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<v Speaker 1>related to the case question. I think that the area

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<v Speaker 1>that I'm concerned about, and I do have a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of emails, so thank you for that. The procedures and

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<v Speaker 1>protocols from AUTHROM that you know about that you've read,

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<v Speaker 1>where are they? Answer? So those protocols would have been

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<v Speaker 1>back in twenty twenty one, I believe from when we

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<v Speaker 1>initially did the RFP. I believe it's the RFP of process.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not completely familiar. It might be an intent to bid.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not sure what you call the process. Regardless when

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<v Speaker 1>that process was going through, they would provide those documents

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<v Speaker 1>to us at that point, and I believe those documents

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<v Speaker 1>likely exist question, okay, any of the work that authoram

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<v Speaker 1>did in getting from DNA sample all the way down

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<v Speaker 1>to SNP profile, where are they? Answer? Where is the

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<v Speaker 1>documentation of that? I don't have that documentation That was

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<v Speaker 1>not provided to us to my knowledge, and I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know everything that was provided back to the laboratory potentially,

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<v Speaker 1>but to my knowledge, we were not provided with that information.

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<v Speaker 1>Question what authorm have it? Answer potentially, I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>Question the work that they did come up with a

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<v Speaker 1>name to give you for further investigation, where are those documents? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know. Question, and your documents some went to authorm,

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<v Speaker 1>but you still have copies of those? Answer I do,

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<v Speaker 1>Miss Taylor. I think that's it. Thank you very much.

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<v Speaker 1>That's all from me for now, mister and I no

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<v Speaker 1>questions your honor the court. Thank you. You can step

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<v Speaker 1>down now. We're going to wrap up right here and

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<v Speaker 1>in the next episode gonna pick up with the next witness,

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<v Speaker 1>and that is Daniel Hellwig. If you'd like to contact me,

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<v Speaker 1>you can do that at Bobby Kopuci at ProtonMail dot com.

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<v Speaker 1>That's b O B B Y C A p U

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<v Speaker 1>C C I at proton mail dot com or if

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<v Speaker 1>you prefer, you can find me over on x at

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<v Speaker 1>b O b b Y, Underscore c A, p U,

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<v Speaker 1>C c I. All of the links that go with

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<v Speaker 1>this episode can be found in the description box.