1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,839 Speaker 1: Imagine a world, Jonathan, and you and I probably can't 2 00:00:02,839 --> 00:00:05,719 even imagine this. Imagine a world in which everything we 3 00:00:05,759 --> 00:00:08,679 want to do, we should do, and everything we should 4 00:00:08,679 --> 00:00:12,080 do is something completely desirable and fulfilling to us. I 5 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:14,800 can't even live an hour like that here in this 6 00:00:14,919 --> 00:00:20,160 fallen world. But that's what we were made for. But 7 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,800 as the story tells us, when the monster the serpent 8 00:00:23,879 --> 00:00:27,000 invades the garden, he convinces the woman. He convinces Eve 9 00:00:27,399 --> 00:00:30,640 to break a commandment, to violate her duty, and how 10 00:00:30,679 --> 00:00:35,439 does he do it by insinuations and manipulations that communicate 11 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:39,600 to her that fulfilling her duty to stay away from 12 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,159 the one forbidden tree is going is not going to 13 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,960 fulfill her desires. And the scripture even tells us when 14 00:00:48,039 --> 00:00:50,880 she's looked after the serpenttents are when she looks at 15 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,079 the tree and sees that it is desirable to eat 16 00:00:54,119 --> 00:00:56,679 and to make one wise. It is then and only 17 00:00:56,719 --> 00:01:00,240 then that she decides to eat. So that Brack sure 18 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:04,719 that fundamental wound of the human soul, I argue in 19 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:10,280 the book is the division between duty and desire. That's when, 20 00:01:10,439 --> 00:01:15,519 for the first time in their lives, what they wanted 21 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:17,519 to do is different from what they ought to do, 22 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:23,840 and that rupture is so traumatic, so fundamentally disintegrating to 23 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,519 us as humans, that we keep replaying that over and 24 00:01:27,599 --> 00:01:32,079 over again in our own lives, psychologically and morally. And 25 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:35,040 then we keep telling that story over and over again, 26 00:01:35,079 --> 00:01:38,439 which is why I think every story is divided along 27 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:40,159 that fracture of duty and desire. 28 00:01:51,959 --> 00:02:05,959 Speaker 2: This is Jonathan fjel Welcome to the Symbolic World. So, 29 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,919 hello everyone, I'm here with Heidi White. Heidi is an author. 30 00:02:10,039 --> 00:02:13,960 She's involved in education. She's also a podcaster. She recently 31 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:18,080 published a book called The Divided Soul, and I know 32 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:20,960 she sent me the book and I looked over linked over, 33 00:02:21,039 --> 00:02:23,680 and I thought just how in tune it was with 34 00:02:23,719 --> 00:02:25,400 the kind of things we talk about on this channel. 35 00:02:26,159 --> 00:02:29,360 Vision of the of the human and a powerful image 36 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:33,319 of microcosm and macrocosm. And she gives these really interesting 37 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:35,560 examples which I think will be helpful for people to 38 00:02:35,599 --> 00:02:38,719 see what she's talking about. And so, Heidi, thanks for 39 00:02:38,759 --> 00:02:39,199 talking to me. 40 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, are you kidding? This is such an honor. 41 00:02:41,319 --> 00:02:42,400 I'm so glad to be here. 42 00:02:44,759 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 2: So maybe tell us a bit about the basic concept 43 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,919 of the book. What do you mean by the divided soul? 44 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, So the book came from a conversation I had 45 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,680 with my godfather years ago. I don't actually even remember 46 00:02:57,719 --> 00:03:00,719 the main subject of the conversation, but somewhere along the 47 00:03:00,759 --> 00:03:04,280 way he made a comment that everything in life comes 48 00:03:04,319 --> 00:03:08,400 down to the story of the prodigal Son. And immediately 49 00:03:08,439 --> 00:03:10,560 I honed it on that. It felt really true, this 50 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,960 sense of recognition and what he said, but I didn't 51 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:19,719 know why, so I started like meditating on that, contemplating that. 52 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,759 And you're very familiar, of course, I'm sure your listeners 53 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,400 are with the story of the prodigal son. The loving 54 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,400 father with two sons, and the first son asks for 55 00:03:30,439 --> 00:03:34,360 his inheritance and squanders it on wild living. Meanwhile, the 56 00:03:34,599 --> 00:03:37,919 dutiful older brother is at home doing the right thing 57 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:42,960 and working in the fields, and the younger brother finds 58 00:03:43,039 --> 00:03:47,120 himself destitute, having squandered everything, and so he returns home repentant, 59 00:03:47,159 --> 00:03:50,080 and the father welcomes him home. But that's not the 60 00:03:50,159 --> 00:03:54,159 end of the story. His older brother is angry and 61 00:03:54,360 --> 00:04:00,479 refuses to welcome him. But the father, what's so fascinating 62 00:04:00,479 --> 00:04:03,360 to me, Jonathan, The father, I notice, wants only one 63 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:05,759 thing for both of his sons, and that's to come 64 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:11,000 to a feast. And the feast is this healing communion 65 00:04:11,039 --> 00:04:15,280 that reconciles these two brothers. And I love that, and 66 00:04:15,319 --> 00:04:17,519 I started looking for that pattern, and I found it 67 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,639 first in myself. Right. I have both an older brother 68 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,319 and a prodigal in me. I have a part of 69 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:28,600 me that wants to seize everything I can and squander 70 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:30,839 it and waste it on my appetites. And then I 71 00:04:30,879 --> 00:04:33,439 have this other part of me that wants always to 72 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:35,439 do the right thing and be rewarded for it and 73 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,319 have the freedom to judge everybody else for not rising 74 00:04:38,319 --> 00:04:43,439 to my standards. And both of these impulses are alive 75 00:04:43,519 --> 00:04:47,560 and active in me at all times. And so I 76 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,079 SI just started noticing this pattern not only in me, 77 00:04:50,199 --> 00:04:52,000 but in everywhere. As you said, I'm a teacher a 78 00:04:52,079 --> 00:04:54,040 literary podcast. So I read a lot of books, a 79 00:04:54,079 --> 00:04:56,319 lot of stories. I think about them, talk about them, 80 00:04:56,639 --> 00:05:02,079 and I started seeing this everywhere, both in literature and life. 81 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,680 And from that came my research, and from that came 82 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,319 the book The Divided Soul and the Divided Soul. I 83 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,920 say in the book, is this war within us between 84 00:05:12,959 --> 00:05:17,279 these two competing impulses what we ought to do represented 85 00:05:17,319 --> 00:05:19,519 by the older brother, and what we want to do 86 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:24,439 represented by our prodigal and then that healing communion that 87 00:05:24,519 --> 00:05:28,360 comes from the Father that brings these two boys together. 88 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 2: And so in the book you kind of you kind 89 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,319 of talk about these to these two opposites, and you 90 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,680 give examples. Of course in literature, you know, maybe you 91 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:42,759 can give us to start up, Maybe you can give 92 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,439 us the sense that why we would choose one or 93 00:05:45,439 --> 00:05:47,439 the other, in the sense that, you know, what is 94 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:49,720 the appeal of following duty and what is the appeal 95 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:51,399 of following desire in the first place. 96 00:05:51,519 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 1: I love that question. I I think that, and I 97 00:05:57,439 --> 00:06:00,560 argue in the book that true desire and true true duty, 98 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:02,879 as they really are and are intended to be, as 99 00:06:02,879 --> 00:06:07,920 they are created to be, are are absolute. Like our 100 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:12,000 true desire is for paradise, it's for eternal joy, it's 101 00:06:12,079 --> 00:06:18,160 for heaven, and our true duty is to keep Christ's commandments. 102 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:24,399 But more often than not, we attach these this question 103 00:06:24,439 --> 00:06:25,959 of what we ought to do and what we want 104 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:31,480 to do to distortions rather than that reality. And I 105 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:33,519 think we see that in the story of the Prodigal Sign, 106 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,199 and then in many other stories, And I don't think 107 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,920 we do it on purpose, right, Like that that older 108 00:06:40,959 --> 00:06:44,079 brother in the story, he really believes he's doing the 109 00:06:44,199 --> 00:06:49,319 right thing. And this younger brother, he may know what 110 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:51,639 he's doing is wrong, but does he really know it's 111 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:52,839 not going to make him happy? 112 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:53,519 Speaker 2: Right? 113 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 1: And so I think what we really want is happiness. 114 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,560 That's what we want. We want joy, And we'd attach 115 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,680 these kind of impulse towards duty and impulse towards desire 116 00:07:06,199 --> 00:07:09,639 to a distortion rather than to the eternal reality of it. 117 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:14,560 And that's what creates chaos and suffering in our lives. 118 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 2: And I mean, because there are some how can I 119 00:07:21,519 --> 00:07:24,399 say this? So in your book you talk about, for example, 120 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,839 virgils an Eus. You talk about an Eus in some 121 00:07:27,879 --> 00:07:31,879 ways as the one that that chooses duty over at 122 00:07:31,959 --> 00:07:36,279 least his desire. And in the poem he's presented as 123 00:07:36,319 --> 00:07:39,160 this is in fact the great is the greater good 124 00:07:39,199 --> 00:07:41,920 that the fact that he that he chooses the duty 125 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,199 to be the founder of Rome rather than to settle, 126 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,720 you know, in a possibly a loving relationship, or to 127 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,560 settle before reaching that goal. You know that this is 128 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,959 something seen as positive in the poem. And so how 129 00:07:54,959 --> 00:07:58,160 do you see this, how do you see? And then 130 00:07:58,399 --> 00:08:01,879 right now ours art of society right now, focus on 131 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,279 the opposite, that is that we have the sense that 132 00:08:04,319 --> 00:08:07,439 you have to always that you're following your desire, following 133 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:12,839 your bliss, expressing your desires in sometimes in the most 134 00:08:12,879 --> 00:08:16,920 idiosyncratic way is the path towards authenticity and the path 135 00:08:16,959 --> 00:08:21,680 towards towards happiness. And so maybe you can paint a 136 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:27,120 little bit for example, like I said, why why do 137 00:08:27,199 --> 00:08:29,600 we see that in why is it not a path 138 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,080 towards happiness? Like why is neither of those the way 139 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:32,960 to happiness? Right? 140 00:08:33,399 --> 00:08:37,159 Speaker 1: Yeah? I used to think that I used to kind 141 00:08:37,159 --> 00:08:39,120 of you know, at the beginning of my writing and 142 00:08:39,159 --> 00:08:42,639 research on this topic, I kind of thought that I 143 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,519 use it almost like a personality test, which sounds kind 144 00:08:45,519 --> 00:08:48,039 of dumb, but in my mind, I was thinking, you know, 145 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:51,679 some of us are duty driven people and some of 146 00:08:51,759 --> 00:08:54,639 us are desired driven people, and we make most of 147 00:08:54,639 --> 00:08:57,200 our mistakes in life because of this or that or whatever. 148 00:08:57,519 --> 00:09:01,960 And I still think that it's true that most of us, 149 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:08,080 because of some combination of nature nurture, kind of favor 150 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:11,759 one over the other, and maybe some of its time 151 00:09:11,759 --> 00:09:14,759 of life, right like I'm a middle aged woman. All 152 00:09:14,759 --> 00:09:17,320 I do is duty all the time. When I was young, 153 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,399 I tend to make more like prodigal, desire driven mistakes. 154 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,519 Right now, I'm a little bit more prone, especially as 155 00:09:24,519 --> 00:09:27,480 a mother and a teacher, like I want people to 156 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:31,120 keep in line, right, and I've seen enough consequences that 157 00:09:31,159 --> 00:09:35,480 I'm afraid of them now. And and so I still 158 00:09:35,519 --> 00:09:38,720 think that that there's kind of a privilege, so to 159 00:09:38,759 --> 00:09:44,600 speak of, within us to kind of gravitate towards one 160 00:09:44,639 --> 00:09:48,759 distortion over the other. But duty and desire are intended 161 00:09:48,759 --> 00:09:53,240 to be unified. Like they are brothers. They are they 162 00:09:53,279 --> 00:09:56,399 belong together, and actually they both want the same thing. 163 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:01,000 So I think that the division between them is absolutely fundamental. 164 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:05,279 This isn't just some kind of psychological, you know, theory 165 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,960 or literary interpretation theory that I'm putting forward to look 166 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,080 smart or trying to make a point. But I think 167 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:16,639 that this is fundamental to the human psyche. And one 168 00:10:16,639 --> 00:10:19,120 of the stories that we have that the fundamental The 169 00:10:19,159 --> 00:10:24,039 first story that we have in history lays this bear, 170 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:25,759 I think, and that's the story of Adam and Eve 171 00:10:25,799 --> 00:10:30,759 in the Garden of Eden. We're told in the scriptures 172 00:10:30,799 --> 00:10:34,240 that God puts Adam and Eve in a garden of 173 00:10:34,279 --> 00:10:37,799 delights to meet their every desire. Right he gives them. 174 00:10:38,879 --> 00:10:42,440 He gives the food to eat tree, eat of any 175 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:46,679 tree that you desire, that looks good to you and 176 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,879 that you long for and hunger for. Also be fruitful 177 00:10:50,879 --> 00:10:53,799 and multiply and fill the earth, and then take dominion 178 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:57,519 over the entire created order. Like this, these aren't just permissions. 179 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,960 These are commands that God gave and Eve, as we're 180 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,639 told in the story. So what we see there is 181 00:11:04,639 --> 00:11:08,080 that there's this unity of duty and desire. Their duty 182 00:11:08,159 --> 00:11:10,600 is to keep these commandments, and the commandments are given 183 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:15,639 to them as wholly desirable, to their to their humanity. 184 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,360 So we were made Paradise is the unity of the two. 185 00:11:19,519 --> 00:11:22,159 Imagine a world, Jonathan, and you and I probably can't 186 00:11:22,159 --> 00:11:25,039 even imagine this. Imagine a world in which everything we 187 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,000 want to do we should do, and everything we should 188 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,399 do is something completely desirable and fulfilling to us. I 189 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,120 can't even live an hour like that here in this 190 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:39,480 fallen world. But that's what we were made for. But 191 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,120 as the story tells us, when the monster the serpent 192 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,320 invades the garden, he convinces the woman he convinces Eve 193 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,960 to break a commandment, to violate her duty, and how 194 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:54,759 does he do it by insinuations and manipulations that communicate 195 00:11:54,799 --> 00:11:58,919 to her that fulfilling her duty to stay away from 196 00:11:58,919 --> 00:12:05,320 the one forbidden true is not going to fulfill her desires. 197 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,320 And the scripture even tells us when She's looked after 198 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,320 the serpintensor, when she looks at the tree and sees 199 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,679 that it is desirable to eat and to make one wise, 200 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,320 it is then and only then that she decides to eat. 201 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:22,799 So that fracture, that fundamental wound of the human soul, 202 00:12:23,159 --> 00:12:27,919 I argue in the book, is the division between duty 203 00:12:27,919 --> 00:12:33,799 and desire. That's when, for the first time in their lives, 204 00:12:34,039 --> 00:12:36,120 what they wanted to do is different from what they 205 00:12:36,159 --> 00:12:40,679 ought to do. And that rupture is so traumatic, so 206 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:46,200 fundamentally disintegrating to us as humans, that we keep replaying 207 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,639 that over and over again in our own lives, psychologically 208 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,759 and morally. And then we keep telling that story over 209 00:12:53,799 --> 00:12:56,480 and over again, which is why I think every story 210 00:12:56,879 --> 00:13:01,600 is divided along that fracture of duty and desire. HM. 211 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:04,759 Speaker 2: So in your let's say, in your own experience or 212 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:10,559 when you read the literature, the stories. You know, why 213 00:13:10,919 --> 00:13:15,600 why do we perceive, for example, duty as an opponent 214 00:13:15,639 --> 00:13:19,039 to desire? Why is it that we we see the 215 00:13:19,039 --> 00:13:23,679 competition right in our everyday experience? Because I agree with 216 00:13:23,759 --> 00:13:26,440 you obviously. I think that when you when I kind 217 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:28,600 of look through the book, I agreed with the basic 218 00:13:28,759 --> 00:13:31,399 concept right away, which is, if you think of duty 219 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:34,279 as an organizing principle, you know, just think about it 220 00:13:34,279 --> 00:13:37,240 that way, or a purpose, uh, you know, and then 221 00:13:37,279 --> 00:13:39,759 desire as a motor as in some ways the thing 222 00:13:39,799 --> 00:13:43,159 that makes you move, Then you alwaysly are always moving 223 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,720 towards a purpose, right, even when you follow your morals, 224 00:13:46,879 --> 00:13:50,120 your whims, you're always kind of moving towards a a 225 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,159 A a kind of purpose. It's just that some of 226 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,519 these purposes are better order than others, are better organized 227 00:13:56,519 --> 00:14:01,639 than others, you know. And so I mean, is it 228 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,639 the timescale? Is it? Is it like the capacity to 229 00:14:04,639 --> 00:14:06,960 see the whole? The force for the trees? What do 230 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,879 you think is the is the obstacle to join those together? 231 00:14:11,039 --> 00:14:14,279 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it has to be a spiritual 232 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:20,840 blindness within us, right, that this chasm between this sense 233 00:14:20,879 --> 00:14:24,919 of if I restrain my appetites, then I will not 234 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:30,080 be happy if I fulfill the duty. Say, you know, 235 00:14:30,159 --> 00:14:32,720 let's pick some low hanging fruit here. If I were to, 236 00:14:33,639 --> 00:14:36,120 let's talk about marriage, like a marriage is the ultimate 237 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:38,679 union of duty and desire, or it should be. Right. 238 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:43,759 When I married my husband, I forsook all others. I 239 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,080 say to him, like, my desire is for you, and 240 00:14:47,159 --> 00:14:50,600 my duty is to you. And five minutes before the 241 00:14:50,639 --> 00:14:53,720 sacraments of marriage, there are things we cannot that are 242 00:14:53,759 --> 00:14:57,919 our duty to abstain from that. Five minutes upon the sacrament, 243 00:14:58,039 --> 00:15:01,519 it is now my duty to yield up to him. Right, 244 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:08,120 And that that's a mystery, that that's a beautiful part 245 00:15:08,159 --> 00:15:11,440 of our human experience. And let's say, you know, five 246 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,679 ten years into marriage, I decide I don't want care 247 00:15:13,679 --> 00:15:17,799 about that duty anymore. And this happens all the time. 248 00:15:17,879 --> 00:15:22,960 Adultery is a profound violation of duty because we have 249 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:24,679 this sense that if I were to keep it, I 250 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,879 can no longer have what I want, right, I want 251 00:15:27,879 --> 00:15:30,840 to feel something I want. I want. I'm tired of 252 00:15:30,879 --> 00:15:33,279 this duty and I want to just jettison it in 253 00:15:33,399 --> 00:15:37,919 order to fulfill my desires. So whenever we have a perception, 254 00:15:38,639 --> 00:15:43,240 a flawed perception, I think it's it's spiritual blindness every time, 255 00:15:44,039 --> 00:15:47,559 whatever we perceive that to do our duty will keep 256 00:15:47,639 --> 00:15:51,799 us from our desire, or to pursue desire is a 257 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:56,440 better thing than to fulfill duty. Whenever there's that chasm 258 00:15:56,519 --> 00:16:01,279 between them and we choose one or the other, we 259 00:16:01,279 --> 00:16:05,559 we wound our souls and we create that same primal 260 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,960 division that that Adam and Eve creative for themselves in 261 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,120 the Garden of Eden. And I think it's just as 262 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,159 true on either side. There's a there's a verse in 263 00:16:14,919 --> 00:16:17,159 I think it's first Timothy that says the sins of 264 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,919 some go before them, and the sins of others trail 265 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,000 behind them. And it seems to me that those prodigal 266 00:16:23,039 --> 00:16:27,759 sins tend to be the ones that go before us, right, Alcoholism, 267 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,200 adult truth, some of those things that are just about 268 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:34,840 like appetites, they either the lust of the flesh or 269 00:16:34,879 --> 00:16:39,240 the lust of the eyes. That those are the prodigal sins, 270 00:16:39,279 --> 00:16:42,279 the sins of desire. But the sins of duty can 271 00:16:42,279 --> 00:16:45,879 be equally destructive, sometimes even more so. Pride and envy 272 00:16:46,279 --> 00:16:48,879 and that sense of being better. I mean you you 273 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:53,720 know that within our within our tradition, we are like 274 00:16:53,799 --> 00:16:57,679 we're always talking about repentance. Right, it's only the prideful 275 00:16:57,679 --> 00:17:01,600 that won't see heaven, and that that that pride tends 276 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,160 to be the sin of the older brother, the sin 277 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,960 of duty, like I am better than others, and I 278 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,559 will live like that, and I will cast judgment, and 279 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:16,119 that's those are sins that are violations of duty. And 280 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,480 so we reap equal destruction in our life from each side. 281 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,240 And I think, do you think to your question, it 282 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,079 comes down to that flawed perception, the clouding of the 283 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,400 inner heart, the inner eye of the mind that cannot 284 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:32,839 see that that true duty and true desire will bring 285 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,720 us the only thing we truly long for, which is joy. 286 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 2: Mm hmm, Yeah, A lot of things came in my 287 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:43,880 mind when you were talking. I was thinking about my 288 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:46,440 favorite quote from Sam Maximus. People have early quoted over 289 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,799 and over which he talks about sins of the right 290 00:17:48,799 --> 00:17:50,920 hand and the sins of the left hand. You know, 291 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,480 he has this idea that in fact, we actually the 292 00:17:54,519 --> 00:17:58,079 first often as Christians, especially as spiritual people, our first 293 00:17:58,079 --> 00:18:00,720 temptation is to give into the sin the right hand, 294 00:18:00,759 --> 00:18:04,160 which are exactly the ones you said, like presumption and 295 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,079 arrogance and pride, all of these kind of sins, of 296 00:18:07,079 --> 00:18:09,839 solidity and a feeling of being proper and of being 297 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,759 right and rightly ordered. But he even he says that 298 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,200 when we give in to those sins, it actually opens 299 00:18:17,279 --> 00:18:19,920 up the door to the other sins, right to the 300 00:18:20,039 --> 00:18:22,160 to the sins of desire, because we in some ways 301 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:24,680 have a false confidence about who we are and where 302 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,440 we stand, and then suddenly we get sideswiped, you know, 303 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:29,519 and you get those ques, you get those stories like 304 00:18:29,799 --> 00:18:31,880 you know, the stories of the fallen pastors, and the 305 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,000 stories of the you know, of the adulter's pastors and 306 00:18:35,079 --> 00:18:37,759 the adulter you know, and the kind of the priests 307 00:18:37,759 --> 00:18:40,119 that do all kinds of crazy stuff. Like you can 308 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:42,880 see that that's the exact patterns that just at the 309 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,880 moment when they think that they're gurus, that they're that 310 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,640 their fathers and that they're in charge, then all of 311 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,160 a sudden, you know, they're not attentive to to to 312 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,000 how or it's or they feel they suddenly people feel 313 00:18:56,039 --> 00:18:59,920 like their desires are are kind of aligned with their duty, 314 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,759 or that their desires are given you know, the fact 315 00:19:02,799 --> 00:19:05,119 that they're so dutiful that they're allowed in some ways 316 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,960 these kinds of uh these kinds of transgressions or something. 317 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,920 I don't know how how to phrase it, but uh, 318 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:15,720 but there definitely is something something true about that. 319 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. 320 00:19:17,759 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 2: And the one thing I wanted to say too is 321 00:19:20,279 --> 00:19:22,000 the way that I see it and when I think, 322 00:19:22,039 --> 00:19:24,079 when I think about what you're what you're talking about, 323 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:29,799 is there's a sense in which that when we when 324 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,519 we give into our desires, you know, we we are 325 00:19:33,559 --> 00:19:36,319 in some ways moving towards it, towards a direction, because 326 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,119 all our desires are meant to be directed towards a 327 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,599 good right. That's the reason that they exist. And when 328 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:46,240 we give in to them in their own let's say, 329 00:19:46,279 --> 00:19:49,519 in their own world, then they're they're directed in all 330 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,720 kinds of ways. Uh, And so we can see that 331 00:19:52,839 --> 00:19:56,279 they just don't lead towards that that that good right. 332 00:19:56,319 --> 00:19:59,000 And sexuality, obviously you mentioned it is the is the 333 00:19:59,039 --> 00:20:01,680 easiest one to to see in a marriage. If you 334 00:20:01,759 --> 00:20:05,200 commit adultery, you're putting not just your marriage at risk, 335 00:20:05,279 --> 00:20:09,319 but your entire family, Your your children, your relationship with 336 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:13,559 your parents, your relationship with like, everything is kind of 337 00:20:13,599 --> 00:20:17,240 put into chaos if you if you don't order that 338 00:20:17,319 --> 00:20:23,599 desire towards towards higher purpose. And so and so there 339 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,480 is a sense in which you know when you say 340 00:20:25,519 --> 00:20:29,200 that duty and desire are meant to be united. I 341 00:20:29,279 --> 00:20:32,559 think this is it's not just something that happens you 342 00:20:32,599 --> 00:20:34,400 could say at some point to saying Christ, because I 343 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:36,559 think that's definitely what you mentioned in the book, but 344 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,880 that it really was at the outset the way. It's 345 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,680 actually the shape of the world. It's the way that desire, 346 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:46,200 it's what desires for is in some ways, to move 347 00:20:46,279 --> 00:20:48,359 towards duty, you could think about it that way. 348 00:20:48,279 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, And to move us towards heaven, right like what 349 00:20:53,599 --> 00:20:57,640 to and to grant us happiness here on earth, like 350 00:20:57,759 --> 00:21:01,920 desire in itself, the parings of desire. It's not pleasurable 351 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,160 but painful, right it is when we want something, there's 352 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,480 this It means that there's kind of this endless distance 353 00:21:07,559 --> 00:21:11,279 between between the fulfillment of it and the want of it. 354 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:16,640 And so desire itself pricks us. It won't leave us 355 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,400 alone until it is fulfilled. And I think that for 356 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,079 that reason it's dangerous, and people are afraid of it, 357 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,000 or can be afraid of it, or or attach it 358 00:21:26,039 --> 00:21:30,440 to fall and distortions rather than eternal realities and c. S. 359 00:21:30,519 --> 00:21:33,440 Lewis one of my favorite authors. I dedicate the book 360 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,440 to him because he is like this profit of desire, right, 361 00:21:36,799 --> 00:21:43,480 and he talks about this so compellingly in so much 362 00:21:43,519 --> 00:21:46,480 of his fiction and nonfiction. That desire is given to 363 00:21:46,559 --> 00:21:50,240 us in order to motivate us to seek for the 364 00:21:50,279 --> 00:21:53,119 good of our own soul. And I love what you 365 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,880 just said about the shape of the world, and it 366 00:21:55,960 --> 00:22:00,200 makes me think of the church Fathers who spoke of 367 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,960 the love of God with erotic language like that that 368 00:22:04,759 --> 00:22:08,000 they use the language of eros. Right, that's this is 369 00:22:08,079 --> 00:22:13,079 the divine longing to be united with God, the ultimate 370 00:22:13,279 --> 00:22:15,799 lover of our soul. And they saw the song of songs, 371 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:20,559 and the Old Testament is being this profound allegory, a 372 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,640 spiritual allegory. Just as a man longs for his wife 373 00:22:24,759 --> 00:22:27,960 or a bride longs for her husband, so the soul 374 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,599 longs to be united to God. And if we do 375 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:37,200 not have that, how much we miss as humans. But 376 00:22:37,319 --> 00:22:40,039 it does need to be directed to its proper object. 377 00:22:40,079 --> 00:22:41,640 And the only way it can be directed to its 378 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:47,839 proper object is through principles, commandments, laws, duties, and so 379 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:53,640 duty forms this kind of this orienting of the longing 380 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,640 of the soul towards towards the proper object, which is 381 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:58,079 why they belong together. 382 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we can see. I mean this isn't abstract. 383 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:07,920 It's really something that you can experience easily at small scales. Right, 384 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,839 It's hard to experience them with the soul in God. 385 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,759 But you know, anything any discipline that you get into, 386 00:23:14,839 --> 00:23:16,319 Let's say you want to learn to paint, or you 387 00:23:16,319 --> 00:23:18,839 want to learn to make art. You know you have 388 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,240 these you know, you have this capacity, this potential, you 389 00:23:22,279 --> 00:23:24,759 have these drives to make it. But in order to 390 00:23:25,279 --> 00:23:29,839 reach you have to order your desires and your capacities, 391 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:31,599 or else you're not going to be able to make 392 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,119 something beautiful. The same goes for a sport or any 393 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,039 kind of like Tot's say someone wants to learn to 394 00:23:38,079 --> 00:23:40,160 become a ballet dancer. A young girl wants to be 395 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,440 a ballet dancer. She has this desire to dance, you know, 396 00:23:43,519 --> 00:23:46,799 this strong desire to dance, But to get there is 397 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:51,839 actually very frustrating and annoying and practice. You know, in 398 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:53,839 all of these steps that you have to do that 399 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,839 are very frustrating and look like in fact, you're actually 400 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,160 stifling the very reason why you are engaged in the 401 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,960 first place. But then once you push through, once you 402 00:24:03,039 --> 00:24:05,720 kind of get through, then you become a master and 403 00:24:05,799 --> 00:24:08,960 you you you have a kind of freedom in that 404 00:24:09,079 --> 00:24:12,039 desire that that you that you realize you didn't have 405 00:24:12,079 --> 00:24:14,920 at the outset. And that the way that we talk 406 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,440 about freedom of desire in the you know, in the 407 00:24:17,519 --> 00:24:20,960 kind of post World War two sexual revolution type of thinking, 408 00:24:21,559 --> 00:24:25,319 is that is a deep mistake because by not disciplining 409 00:24:25,319 --> 00:24:28,519 our desires, we end up inverting the relationship, and then 410 00:24:28,519 --> 00:24:32,359 we become slaves of our desires, We become we become 411 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:37,400 tyrannized by you know, these idiosyncratic moment you actually move 412 00:24:37,759 --> 00:24:41,039 from moment to moment of desire without actually you know, 413 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,960 uniting it together towards something that gives you true and 414 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,799 proper joy in that desire. So, you know, I think think, 415 00:24:48,039 --> 00:24:49,880 you know, thinking about this and talking about this is 416 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,160 very important, especially for you know, our young people that 417 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,799 are that are so drowning in the narrative of you know, 418 00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,799 do whatever you feel like and you know your desires 419 00:24:59,799 --> 00:25:02,039 are you are your desires that kind of thinking. 420 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: I completely agree with this, And you know, I've got 421 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,039 teenagers at home, and I teach teenagers every day of 422 00:25:08,079 --> 00:25:11,960 my life, and I love them, but it's such as 423 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:16,839 it's such a season of desire and and it feels 424 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,079 I mean, I remember being young, not anymore, but I 425 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,319 remember it, and I remember that sense of like it 426 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,960 felt as though duty would stifle that in me. And 427 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,119 I remember a priest saying to many years ago, when 428 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:35,960 my children were very small, saying in a parenting group 429 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,880 at church, saying something like, if you want your children 430 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,400 to be chased, put them in piano lessons, which I 431 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:44,839 is a lot like what you just said, right, And 432 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,359 I loved that so much. Like that, It is piano 433 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:54,759 lessons train the habits to the fulfillment of duty in 434 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:59,200 the mundane and ordinary things in order to create something beautiful, 435 00:25:59,519 --> 00:26:04,279 something bigger. Right, to be able to play a sonata 436 00:26:04,319 --> 00:26:09,400 by Mozart, right is something to be able to train 437 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,759 yourself to do that, to create that kind of beauty, 438 00:26:11,759 --> 00:26:15,920 that kind of transcendent connection with like that with cosmic harmony, right, 439 00:26:16,279 --> 00:26:20,960 uh is it's it begins with doing your scales when 440 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,799 you're seven years old and sticking to it and uh 441 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,799 and sitting at the piano. And so there's just this 442 00:26:27,839 --> 00:26:32,240 intrinsic connection between the dutiful life and and and transcendent 443 00:26:32,319 --> 00:26:37,200 beauty and fulfillment. That is, as you said, not abstract, 444 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:41,839 it's embodied. It's our daily life. You you mentioned Saint Maximus, 445 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,119 and right now I'm reading Saint Gregory of Palamas, who 446 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,400 says it pretty much exactly what you just said, which is, 447 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,000 if you want to conquer the passions, then you must 448 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,079 conquer your stomach. Right, you have to learn to eat 449 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,799 a little bit less because it is when when it 450 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,759 is when we fill our ourselves so full of fill 451 00:27:02,799 --> 00:27:08,880 our flesh, then it becomes easier to give in to 452 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,440 the bigger passions and become enslaved by them. Which is 453 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,359 why the Church has always prescribed feasting and fasting as 454 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,559 part of our spiritual discipline, because it matters the little 455 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,599 choices that we make and fulfilling the duties of our lives. 456 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,240 That is what creates this kind of framework or scaffolding 457 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,880 to the bigger temptations and the bigger joys. 458 00:27:31,839 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 2: So one of the things you do in the book 459 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,319 is you kind of take us through these different aspects, 460 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,359 you know, the aspect of duty, the aspet desire, and 461 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,799 then the kind of reconciliation of the two of these 462 00:27:41,799 --> 00:27:46,079 two senses and maybe tell a little bit people, because 463 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,359 you don't just do it abstractly, kind of do it 464 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,759 through literature and through fiction and then obviously through Bible stories. 465 00:27:52,799 --> 00:27:55,119 And so maybe give us a few images of the 466 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,799 characters you see as representing the duty side the desire side, 467 00:27:59,799 --> 00:28:02,720 and if you hints, if you have some images of 468 00:28:02,759 --> 00:28:05,480 people that you know, we know, Christ does it, but yeah, 469 00:28:05,519 --> 00:28:07,720 there are other people that you can see that that 470 00:28:07,839 --> 00:28:09,559 can exemplify that reconciliation. 471 00:28:09,759 --> 00:28:13,640 Speaker 1: Right, So let me start with something from pop culture 472 00:28:13,839 --> 00:28:18,599 that's just not in the book, but yeah, which I'm 473 00:28:18,599 --> 00:28:21,039 happy to talk about examples that I give in the book. 474 00:28:21,599 --> 00:28:25,880 But if I'm talking about this kind of with with 475 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,920 people that I think don't don't read as much as 476 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,359 I do, right, because this is my entire life read books, right, 477 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,119 books talk about books. But an example from pop culture 478 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,920 might come from the Marvel universe. Right, You've got your 479 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,599 two main The two main heroes in the Marvel franchise 480 00:28:42,759 --> 00:28:47,599 are iron Man and Captain America. So iron Man is 481 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:52,240 your very desired, driven hero, right. He he has everything 482 00:28:52,319 --> 00:28:54,960 you meet him, He's got well, you know, he's got money, 483 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,200 he's got swagger, he's handsome, he's got women in cars, 484 00:28:58,359 --> 00:29:02,680 and and he's super smart. So he's successful. He's like 485 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,720 everything that you know the world. He's this worldly icon 486 00:29:06,839 --> 00:29:11,920 of success. Right, But there's something wrong about him, and 487 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:16,680 we intrinsically, audiences, we intrinsically know there's something wrong here. 488 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:21,680 There's some essential quality of heroism that is missing from 489 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,759 Tony Stark u and that uh, and that is that 490 00:29:25,799 --> 00:29:31,480 he can never restrain himself, right, he and the trajectory 491 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:36,559 of heroic development for Tony Starkin, for others like him, 492 00:29:36,839 --> 00:29:40,359 the trajectory of development for the hero's journey of the 493 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,559 desire driven protagonist is to learn to do his duty. 494 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,759 He has to do the right thing and and and 495 00:29:48,799 --> 00:29:50,640 in order to do that, he has to learn to 496 00:29:50,799 --> 00:29:54,319 repress himself, to restrain himself. So you know, in the 497 00:29:54,359 --> 00:29:56,799 first Iron Man movie goes, he gets captured and then 498 00:29:56,799 --> 00:29:59,599 he has to go through this like training and and 499 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,279 he has to learn to respond to a mentor. Right. 500 00:30:03,319 --> 00:30:07,680 It's just this classic hero's journey that we intrinsically recognize. 501 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,640 We find it satisfying, but we don't recognize him as 502 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,079 a hero until he's tested and he has to put 503 00:30:14,119 --> 00:30:18,559 that training into practice. And then only then by the 504 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,000 end of the movie we're like, oh yeah, now he's 505 00:30:21,039 --> 00:30:23,759 a hero. And we don't do this consciously, it's just 506 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,559 we've just recognized it. Right, It's so fundamental, it's so innate. 507 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,359 We just know that, and it's predictable, but it's predictable 508 00:30:31,359 --> 00:30:34,880 in a very satisfying way. Now let's talk then about 509 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:39,039 Captain America, who's your very typical duty driven hero. We're 510 00:30:39,039 --> 00:30:42,079 not worried. From the very beginning. We know that Captain 511 00:30:42,119 --> 00:30:44,240 America is going to do the right thing, Like he 512 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,880 just always does the right thing. He doesn't even want 513 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,359 to lie about his age when he's going into war, 514 00:30:49,519 --> 00:30:52,279 like he just wants to he's he We know that. 515 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:57,079 So but for him, what we need to see this 516 00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,279 is the sad part, right, because this is what happens 517 00:30:59,279 --> 00:31:03,480 to your duty Drinn protagonist. Is they always lose something 518 00:31:03,519 --> 00:31:06,759 that they want, right and so, and it's usually the 519 00:31:06,799 --> 00:31:10,160 girl so, and that's exactly what happens to Captain America. 520 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:12,839 He we know he's going to do the right thing. 521 00:31:13,039 --> 00:31:15,720 That's like not even interesting to us. We just recognize that. 522 00:31:16,039 --> 00:31:17,839 But the thing that happens to him is that he 523 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:22,759 loses the thing he wants, and a million movies later, finally, 524 00:31:22,839 --> 00:31:25,279 you know, I don't even know how many by the 525 00:31:25,319 --> 00:31:28,759 time we get to the end. The only satisfying ending 526 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,039 for him is that he has to have her back. 527 00:31:31,599 --> 00:31:35,039 And when they're finally reconciled, then and only then do 528 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,720 we recognize, do we have that sense of this satisfying 529 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,640 character arc and plot arc, Then we can rest because 530 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,920 we know that this dutiful man is reconciled with his desire, 531 00:31:46,319 --> 00:31:48,720 whereas with Tony Stark he has to be reconciled with 532 00:31:48,759 --> 00:31:51,319 his duty. So if we look for that pattern, I 533 00:31:51,359 --> 00:31:54,240 started looking for that pattern, and it's everywhere. It's not 534 00:31:54,359 --> 00:31:58,440 just in the Marvel movies. It's not just in Star Wars. 535 00:31:58,559 --> 00:32:02,640 It's it's it's not just Harry Potter, right, it's everywhere. 536 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,079 So you see that in Hamlet, Right, in Shakespeare's Hamlet, 537 00:32:06,119 --> 00:32:08,160 we have a very duty driven hero. In fact, the 538 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,960 whole conflict of that entire play is he doesn't know 539 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,480 the right thing to do. Should he kill Claudius or 540 00:32:14,519 --> 00:32:19,000 should he not write? And there's no transcendent voice of 541 00:32:19,039 --> 00:32:21,559 good to tell him what to do, And because he 542 00:32:21,599 --> 00:32:24,640 doesn't know that, he freezes, and then the play ends 543 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,079 in tragedy. On the other hand, we have Macbeth, who 544 00:32:28,079 --> 00:32:30,000 I write about in the book. He's a very desired 545 00:32:30,079 --> 00:32:32,880 driven protagonist, and the tragedy of his life is that 546 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,799 he never does the right thing, even though he's given 547 00:32:35,839 --> 00:32:38,559 the opportunity to over and over and over again. And 548 00:32:38,599 --> 00:32:40,640 so in both cases we have a stage littered with 549 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,160 dead bodies, but we have it because of those kind 550 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:48,240 of different impulses within these two characters, one desire driven, 551 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:53,960 one duty driven, so that that if you look for 552 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,880 that character arc, you're going to see it in every story, 553 00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:57,720 including our own. 554 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,519 Speaker 2: The example you give are very are very convincing, especially 555 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,519 for I think for most people that aren't well read. 556 00:33:05,559 --> 00:33:08,680 I think the Marvel example is is perfect because you actually, 557 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,400 like you said, you actually see the crossover the two 558 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,359 characters starting in one place and then basically flipping and 559 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,400 then at the end, Tony Starr gives this life and sacrifices, 560 00:33:19,039 --> 00:33:22,200 you know, his happy life, and then the opposite happens 561 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,519 with Captain America. It is, in fact exactly what you're saying. 562 00:33:26,519 --> 00:33:29,680 And so are there characters that you see I mean, 563 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,319 in some ways you see that in that that full arc, 564 00:33:32,359 --> 00:33:34,359 you kind of see the balance coming out where in 565 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,839 some ways you you you are satisfied because you see 566 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,720 the character that has more of one side ultimately be 567 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,559 reconciled with the other side. So you already have given 568 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,079 us examples of characters in some ways that that reconcile. 569 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,519 But then how is it that you see that Christ 570 00:33:51,079 --> 00:33:51,440 does this? 571 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, through the cross right, which is the dividing line 572 00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:01,480 of every single story. There is always every satisfying story 573 00:34:02,039 --> 00:34:08,199 always has a moment of self emptying, of sacrifice, of 574 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,400 death and resurrection. It is, as you said, the shape 575 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,440 of the world. It's the pattern of the cosmos. Uh. 576 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,480 This is why stories are satisfying to us, is because 577 00:34:17,519 --> 00:34:22,000 we're waiting, we're looking. A story begins with, you know, 578 00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:27,800 a created world, a created order, and then once as 579 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,679 a reader or a beholder of the story, we understand 580 00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:34,199 what that created order is, then there's some kind of 581 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:39,440 disruption to that order, right, Like and it could be 582 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:45,599 like Souron is looking for the ring, there's a disruption 583 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,119 for you, or it could be something a little bit 584 00:34:48,119 --> 00:34:52,360 more mundane, like mister Bingley moved into the uh, moved 585 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,840 into another field. Right, there's a little disruption of the 586 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,559 order of the story, and something has to happen because 587 00:34:58,559 --> 00:35:04,000 of it, because everybody knows that a man of considerable 588 00:35:04,039 --> 00:35:06,480 fortune is always in want of a wife. Right, So, 589 00:35:07,559 --> 00:35:11,519 once there's kind of this disruption to this story, then 590 00:35:11,599 --> 00:35:16,079 because we our souls seek for harmony, our perceptive faculties 591 00:35:16,119 --> 00:35:19,880 are always desire harmony, and so we need then we're 592 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:21,679 invested in the story at that point, we need that 593 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:29,480 to be resolved, and so then some kind of conflict 594 00:35:29,519 --> 00:35:31,800 happens in the main characters that has to be resolved 595 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:36,239 through a moment of repentance or sacrifice. And that repentance 596 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,519 and sacrifice, you know, it's Lizzie Bennett walking in the 597 00:35:40,559 --> 00:35:47,559 garden with Lady Catherine de Bergh and finally defending Darcy. Right, 598 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:52,599 there's her moment of repentance and or reading the letter 599 00:35:52,639 --> 00:35:55,199 that Darcy writes on realizing she was wrong, This duty 600 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,960 driven soul who always thinks she's right, right, but she 601 00:35:59,079 --> 00:36:01,639 has to come face a face with that her perception. 602 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,559 She is blind and she doesn't know what she really wants, 603 00:36:06,159 --> 00:36:08,719 and she's not yet worthy of it. Right, The same 604 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:10,800 thing happens for Darcy. And this is why pride and 605 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,559 prejudice is such an enduring story. We read it and 606 00:36:13,599 --> 00:36:15,480 it's like, it's so simple, why does this work? But 607 00:36:15,559 --> 00:36:20,880 it's because it's the shape of the world. And so 608 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,000 you asked how Christ. He wanted to talk about How 609 00:36:24,079 --> 00:36:27,480 Christ does it? Right? He does it through love, through 610 00:36:27,639 --> 00:36:31,920 sacrificial love, and the laying down of his life, and 611 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,559 then he invites us to participate in that. That is 612 00:36:34,599 --> 00:36:37,760 how we are known to be Christians, says Saint John. 613 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,239 That theologian they will know where Christians by our love, 614 00:36:40,559 --> 00:36:45,599 which means our willingness to die. That's the that's how 615 00:36:45,639 --> 00:36:50,360 we know what love is. And sometimes that happens literally 616 00:36:50,519 --> 00:36:54,119 in stories. Harry Potter literally goes into the forest and 617 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,840 dies for the life of the world. And then after 618 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,159 that none of the curses of the death eaters can 619 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,000 stick on any of the people they're attacking because they're 620 00:37:02,039 --> 00:37:05,920 protected by that charm of love, of sacrificial love. Such 621 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:11,880 a christ like story, and that happens, of course through 622 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,679 Lizzie Bennett and mister Darcy getting married at the end, right, 623 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,719 it's and her getting ten thousand a year, which is 624 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:23,039 not mercenary but simply a vision of heaven, like the 625 00:37:23,119 --> 00:37:27,119 more we get more than we deserve. And Christ models 626 00:37:27,119 --> 00:37:30,559 that for us first, and then we participate that in 627 00:37:30,599 --> 00:37:36,239 that through our own conversions and our own humility and repentance, 628 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,679 and then we we recreate it in every satisfying story 629 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,039 that's ever been written or told in the history of 630 00:37:42,039 --> 00:37:44,360 the world. And that's all the more compelling because so 631 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,039 many people don't know that that's the story they're telling. 632 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,760 So many authors don't know, they don't know that they're 633 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:55,199 telling this cosmic redemption story over and over and over 634 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,400 again because it's the only satisfying story. 635 00:38:00,039 --> 00:38:05,400 Speaker 2: Hm hm, yeah, it's it's interesting because one of my problems, 636 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:07,880 my problem, one of my problems with the story of 637 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,360 Christ is that it always slips between my fingers, right, 638 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,199 And so you know, you know, when you describe, when 639 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:19,159 you describe the characters in the book, like when you 640 00:38:19,159 --> 00:38:22,519 you describe the duty characters and the desiring characters, and 641 00:38:22,519 --> 00:38:25,000 and you know, and even now when you describe the 642 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,360 Marvel universe, it's like it's so it's it's simple, actually, man, 643 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:34,880 Jesus' story is just because if I take your if 644 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,960 I take your pattern, I see it. I see it. 645 00:38:38,159 --> 00:38:41,400 Crashing is is. But maybe that's what Jesus does all 646 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,239 the time. Right, Jesus is always doing that because when 647 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,840 he's in the garden, he expresses that he does not 648 00:38:48,519 --> 00:38:51,840 want this right, right, he expresses that he does not 649 00:38:52,039 --> 00:38:58,920 want the cup, and and therefore he he in some 650 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:03,360 ways seems to you to to completely accept duty. He says, 651 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,559 you know, not my will basically, but what but your will? 652 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:13,119 But there are other versions, like other ways that we 653 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:18,239 described the crucifixion in which we talk about it in 654 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,760 the passion, and we use the word passion, right, we 655 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:22,880 use the word passion in the sense we use the 656 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:27,960 word of a a of a fully giving yourself, uh, 657 00:39:28,199 --> 00:39:32,719 you know, in a in a kind of ecstatic giving, 658 00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:34,760 you know. But it's a painful, it's not it's not 659 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,679 a But then desires, I said, desire is painful. To 660 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,960 desire is not Desire is pretty much the equivalent of pain. Uh. 661 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,119 And so and so so when I when I tried 662 00:39:45,159 --> 00:39:47,039 to keep when I tried to capture it the whole 663 00:39:47,039 --> 00:39:49,280 story in my mind, it doesn't hold, like it doesn't. 664 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,239 It just keeps slipping because I'm like, well, you know, 665 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,519 because we for example, like you know, even in the 666 00:39:54,599 --> 00:39:59,559 Orthodox tradition, we have this insane moment during the during 667 00:39:59,639 --> 00:40:01,719 the during a Holy Week, you know, where we put 668 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,440 up the icon of Christ being tortured, and we say 669 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,079 and we put it up for bridegroom mattens where we 670 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:12,079 describe the relationship between the bride and the bridegroom and 671 00:40:12,119 --> 00:40:15,440 we sing of this kind of uh call in response 672 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:19,280 between the lover, between the lovers. But we're basically we're 673 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:23,599 basically at the moment where Christ is being tortured, you know, 674 00:40:24,119 --> 00:40:27,960 and heading towards the cross, and it's like, it's just 675 00:40:28,119 --> 00:40:31,159 it hurts, like it hurts to try to to try 676 00:40:31,159 --> 00:40:32,559 to capture it. So I don't know, maybe you can 677 00:40:32,599 --> 00:40:35,400 help me elucidate it, because because I can see it, 678 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:37,679 but I don't see it completely because when I when 679 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:41,920 I grab a thread, then another thread unravels and I 680 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:43,920 try to hold them all and they don't. They don't. 681 00:40:44,039 --> 00:40:45,639 I can't seem to hold them all together. 682 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know that I can hold them together either, 683 00:40:48,199 --> 00:40:53,679 because it's it's it's a mystery. Like Christ. He I 684 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:55,760 got thinking right now of the Sermon on the Mount 685 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,719 when he says, not one jot, not one iota, of 686 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,239 the of the law will be lost. He's not come 687 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,880 to abolish it, but to fulfill it. But in order 688 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:08,880 to fulfill it, he completely subverts it, right, And and 689 00:41:09,079 --> 00:41:16,400 that there's that paradox that is not an intellectual it 690 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,880 is an intellectual paradox paradox. But to your point, it's 691 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:24,159 so existential as well. And one of the things that 692 00:41:24,159 --> 00:41:26,400 that I had to do to make this book come 693 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:30,960 alive is talk about my own life in it. And 694 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,039 you know, it's funny. I wrote about half the book 695 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,400 and and it was like drudgery. It was so hard. 696 00:41:38,199 --> 00:41:40,239 I was just pushing through, you know, putting it, doing 697 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,519 my duty thing right right in my you know, thinking 698 00:41:43,519 --> 00:41:46,559 about hiving away, typing on the you know, typewriter and 699 00:41:46,679 --> 00:41:49,480 bleeding and just like killing my darlings and all the 700 00:41:49,519 --> 00:41:51,519 things right that you do when you're writing, as you know, 701 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:55,599 and and but there was no life in it. I 702 00:41:55,679 --> 00:41:57,599 just felt like I was writing a really long essay. 703 00:41:57,599 --> 00:41:59,639 And I was like, why would aby read this book? 704 00:42:00,119 --> 00:42:07,079 It's so boring? And and I, uh, I came to 705 00:42:07,119 --> 00:42:09,800 this realization that it really didn't have life in it 706 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:15,199 because I was I. I wasn't in it like I 707 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:20,559 my own tormented story, my own like those two hands 708 00:42:20,559 --> 00:42:22,639 that can't my right hand and my left hand that 709 00:42:22,679 --> 00:42:25,679 are divided from each other. That that that I'm trying 710 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:29,280 to understand something that is so mysterious. I'm trying to 711 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:35,519 make this case for something that is a mystery and 712 00:42:35,559 --> 00:42:39,360 in my life. And and you know, I'm thinking of 713 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,719 Flannery O'Connor saying the fiction writer, which I'm not writing fiction, 714 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:51,239 I hope but that God have mercy. I maybe someday 715 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,440 I'll be good enough to write fiction. But this book, 716 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:59,679 I hope isn't fiction. I I was, But Flannery O'Connor says, like, 717 00:43:00,159 --> 00:43:03,440 if you have a proposition, don't write fiction. If you 718 00:43:03,679 --> 00:43:08,679 fully understand something, it can't be a story because otherwise 719 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:12,000 we wouldn't have any Like we should just tell one 720 00:43:12,039 --> 00:43:17,360 story and be done right. Like there's like stories are 721 00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:22,280 supposed to be mysterious, and that's why they exist. It's 722 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,480 because they're so elusive. There's something that we're trying to say, 723 00:43:25,519 --> 00:43:28,000 There's something that we're trying to contemplate or look at 724 00:43:29,519 --> 00:43:35,760 that eludes our comprehension. Shakespeare says there's such a difference 725 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:40,159 between Midsummer Night's Dream, between apprehension and comprehension. And in 726 00:43:40,199 --> 00:43:43,519 this book, I'm I think I'm trying to apprehend something, 727 00:43:43,599 --> 00:43:47,159 not comprehend it, because as you're saying, the Life of 728 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:53,159 Christ both fulfills and subverts every proposition and every law 729 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,920 that's ever been And that feels true to me, which 730 00:43:58,000 --> 00:43:59,719 is why I had to tell some of my own 731 00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:04,599 story because it's messy and there's a lot that I 732 00:44:04,599 --> 00:44:07,039 still don't know what to make of. And I'm just 733 00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:13,239 one person that's insignificant except to myself and to God, right, 734 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:18,639 and that is part of the human condition, and that's 735 00:44:18,639 --> 00:44:20,840 why books are worth writing. But that's why they can't 736 00:44:21,039 --> 00:44:21,800 say everything. 737 00:44:23,639 --> 00:44:28,639 Speaker 2: Mm hmmm hm. And so if there is something like 738 00:44:28,679 --> 00:44:30,840 if you could, if you could could bring it together, 739 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,079 you know, what is what is that you're hoping the 740 00:44:34,119 --> 00:44:35,920 book will do? Like, what is it you're hoping that 741 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:37,199 people will get from you? 742 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:42,559 Speaker 1: Yeah? I feel like for me it's pretty easy. I 743 00:44:42,679 --> 00:44:47,000 just try to say something I'm seeing right. My vocation 744 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:53,000 as a teacher, podcaster, writer, all of it really is 745 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:58,119 because I'm so overwhelmed by mystery all the time, and 746 00:45:00,119 --> 00:45:03,760 but I also believe that there's something true. I feel 747 00:45:05,079 --> 00:45:09,639 kind of stuck right or strained in between, like my 748 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:16,559 grasping towards the transcendent truth. I want to be transfigured 749 00:45:16,599 --> 00:45:21,199 into it, right. I long for heaven like the eschatological hope. 750 00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:23,960 This world is a comedy, not a tragedy. It's moving 751 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,920 towards a desirable end. And the only question is which 752 00:45:28,199 --> 00:45:30,239 side am I going to be on at that point? 753 00:45:30,519 --> 00:45:30,679 Speaker 2: Right? 754 00:45:31,119 --> 00:45:38,159 Speaker 1: And that So I'm constantly reaching towards that. But at 755 00:45:38,159 --> 00:45:40,519 the same time, I don't live in transcendence yet, I 756 00:45:40,519 --> 00:45:43,639 live in the imminent, and I'm confused all the time. 757 00:45:44,519 --> 00:45:48,119 So the book is and all of my vocation is 758 00:45:48,159 --> 00:45:50,119 just an attempt be like, look at this, like hold 759 00:45:50,119 --> 00:45:51,920 out my hands, my two hands with something in it 760 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,199 that I think is worth looking at, and just say like, 761 00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:57,559 look at this with me. So the thing that I 762 00:45:57,679 --> 00:46:02,280 want is immense. It's just for people to look at 763 00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:05,920 it with me and and say what they think, Like 764 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,760 join a conversation, Open a conversation. 765 00:46:09,119 --> 00:46:12,920 Speaker 2: So, so, where can people find what you're doing? I 766 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,639 mean obviously the book, but also your podcast. Tell us 767 00:46:15,679 --> 00:46:19,000 where to go find your your your your discussions. 768 00:46:19,119 --> 00:46:22,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, so we're we're We're not on My book's not 769 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:24,960 on Amazon. You can get it through the publisher at 770 00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:28,320 Goldberry press dot com. We're trying not to we're trying 771 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:30,000 to stay out of the machine as best as we 772 00:46:30,039 --> 00:46:38,760 can and the but you can listen to my podcast, 773 00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:43,480 close Reads. You can go it's wherever you get podcasts, Spotify, 774 00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,280 you know, iTunes, whatever, wherever you get podcasts, you can 775 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:50,320 find close Reads. And we it's me and two other 776 00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,320 people and we two other guys and we just sit 777 00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:54,599 and talk about books over It's like a book club. 778 00:46:55,519 --> 00:46:58,000 And we have a really active social media presence and 779 00:46:58,039 --> 00:47:01,239 we do retreats and things like that and just basically 780 00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:03,599 do what you and I are doing right now. And 781 00:47:05,119 --> 00:47:09,679 then you can follow me at Heidi White Reads on Instagram. 782 00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:12,239 And I'm always posting and talking about these things because 783 00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,039 I just I just want, like you, you know, I 784 00:47:15,119 --> 00:47:17,079 just said, I just want to talk about it with people. 785 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:19,960 Speaker 2: Well that's great because I think that I'm set to 786 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,559 be on the Closer podcast as well, and so we 787 00:47:22,599 --> 00:47:26,000 will be. We'll be discussing again very soon. And so 788 00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:28,079 thanks for your time. It was great to meet you 789 00:47:28,119 --> 00:47:30,360 and I'm definitely looking forward to our next conversation. 790 00:47:30,519 --> 00:47:32,360 Speaker 1: Thanks Jonathan, me too, Thanks for having me. 791 00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,880 Speaker 2: If you enjoy these videos and podcasts, please go to 792 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:38,599 the Symbolic World dot com. Website and see how you 793 00:47:38,599 --> 00:47:41,760 can support what we're doing. There are multiple subscriber tiers 794 00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,719 with perks. There are apparel and books to purchase, So 795 00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,199 go to the Symbolic World dot com and thank you 796 00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:47,920 for your support.