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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 5: journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good evening.
Speaker 6: We never lock our doors. This is an often heard
Speaker 6: remark expressing a commonplace American attitude or belief that, despite
Speaker 6: whatever danger might prevail in public spaces, life inside our
Speaker 6: own homes remains, or at least should remain safe, care
Speaker 6: free normal. This book covers thirteen high profile cases in
Speaker 6: which evil paid an untimely visit and found the entrance
Speaker 6: open when everything was normal until it wasn't. Cases include
Speaker 6: Tommy Lynn Sells, Josha Comerzowski and Stephen J. Hayes, Paul Klaus,
Speaker 6: Richard Ramirez, Richard Trenton, Chase, Danny Rowlings, and others. The
Speaker 6: book they were featuring this evening is Through an Unlocked
Speaker 6: Door in Walk's Murder with my special guest, journalist and
Speaker 6: author Kevin Sullivan. Welcome back to the program, and thank
Speaker 6: you very much for a greensiness interview. Kevin Sullivan, Oh,
Speaker 6: thank you, Dan. It's always good to be on the
Speaker 6: show with you. We always have a good time and
Speaker 6: or you sure review the books, you know, before the
Speaker 6: office come on, because you've got all things lined out
Speaker 6: and all the questions ready to go. And I really
Speaker 6: appreciate that. Well, thank you very much. It's my extreme
Speaker 6: pleasure because I wouldn't want to miss a word of
Speaker 6: some of the stuff you've written. This book is a
Speaker 6: fine example. Like I said before we got on the air,
Speaker 6: this thing is jam packed with details and a lot
Speaker 6: of the stuff. For those people that think they've read everything,
Speaker 6: You've covered some things and in I got to warn
Speaker 6: people graphic detail.
Speaker 2: So let's get right to this.
Speaker 6: This is through an unlocked door. In Walk's Murder, we
Speaker 6: did a little bit of an introduction, but not really
Speaker 6: so as you do in the introduction, tell us a
Speaker 6: little bit. You said your father was an attorney, so
Speaker 6: you came to some of this honestly. And also there
Speaker 6: was an incident in nineteen sixty seven that occurred around
Speaker 6: your home, so tell us about that. How you came
Speaker 6: to true crime, and then how you came to want
Speaker 6: to do this book and why.
Speaker 2: Sure, Yeah, I kind of got an early start with
Speaker 2: true crime. I don't know it. Normally children don't pick
Speaker 2: up books adult books and read about crime, but My
Speaker 2: father was an attorney. He had a very large library
Speaker 2: in our home and at the age of ten, I
Speaker 2: can still remember this. I'm sixty three now, but at
Speaker 2: the age of ten, I picked up a book off
Speaker 2: of his shelf and it was called The World's Worst
Speaker 2: Murderers by a British author named Charles Franklin, and it
Speaker 2: was published in nineteen sixty five in England and also
Speaker 2: had a publication over here that same year, and so
Speaker 2: I took the book off the shelf I started reading it.
Speaker 2: I hadn't read an adult book before. I didn't know
Speaker 2: a whole lot about murder, and I knew people sometimes
Speaker 2: harmed other people. But I found that it took me
Speaker 2: about three weeks to read the book, and I remember
Speaker 2: having to stop a number of times, asking my mother
Speaker 2: certain words, what they had to put out and what
Speaker 2: they meant, as you can imagine a ten year old
Speaker 2: kid having to do. But I got through the book
Speaker 2: and I was just fascinated by it. And the thing
Speaker 2: about the crime was these murders. The two things that
Speaker 2: got me. Number one, it was the terrible people that
Speaker 2: were committing them and the folks that were being murdered,
Speaker 2: and very often they just didn't see it coming. They
Speaker 2: were the innocent people. And that made a really great
Speaker 2: impression on me. And so through the years I kept
Speaker 2: reading through crime, and I would read about war and
Speaker 2: things like that, because my father was in World War Two,
Speaker 2: his brother was killed in World War two, his uncle
Speaker 2: was killed in World War two. So I grew up
Speaker 2: hearing these stories and reading about conflicts. But true crime,
Speaker 2: I never got away from it, and I just it
Speaker 2: was something that is always there. It's always around us.
Speaker 2: You read it every day in the newspaper. And there
Speaker 2: was an incident that happened when I was twelve in
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty seven, and we lived about a mile and
Speaker 2: a half from the A and P. Grocery store, which
Speaker 2: was on boards Down Road, and I guess maybe we
Speaker 2: were just about a mile from there. And I used
Speaker 2: to go in that store at least a couple of
Speaker 2: times a week with my mom and she would do
Speaker 2: her shopping. I would, you know, walk along with her whatever.
Speaker 2: And there was a robbery there one night. We were
Speaker 2: not there, and in fact, I don't think it was
Speaker 2: even dark yet, but four men had robbed the place,
Speaker 2: and a police officer with the Louisville Police department chased
Speaker 2: these men and cornered them basically across the street towards
Speaker 2: the side of the building in a parking lot, and
Speaker 2: you know, just these these men just did not get away.
Speaker 2: But there were four of them, and I think it's
Speaker 2: always thought there was a fifth involved that had gotten away,
Speaker 2: but four of them that were right there when the
Speaker 2: shooting occurred. The police officer, his name was William Meyer.
Speaker 2: He had cornered three of them and apparently one he
Speaker 2: didn't corner, and this one man shot and killed him.
Speaker 2: And I remember being affected by that. Again. I had
Speaker 2: started reading true crime when I was ten, but I mean,
Speaker 2: here's a place where this occurred. It's near my home,
Speaker 2: and it just it was something. So when these men
Speaker 2: came to trial, I asked my father if he would
Speaker 2: allow me to go and sit in on the trial
Speaker 2: for at least a portion of it, maybe for a
Speaker 2: day or two. I would like to see it. And
Speaker 2: he said that that would be okay. And I remember
Speaker 2: he took me down there. He told me three times
Speaker 2: not to leave my that he'd be back to get
Speaker 2: me for lunch, and just to make sure, he told
Speaker 2: a court bailiff that he knew to keep an eye
Speaker 2: on me, and this man did. And I remember sitting
Speaker 2: there looking at these men, and you know, one or
Speaker 2: two of them were slouching in their chairs, and I
Speaker 2: kept thinking, they all to sit up straight, and why
Speaker 2: didn't their parents teach them better? I mean, this is
Speaker 2: how a twelve year old thinks. Well, I guess it
Speaker 2: was by the time the trial occurred that this was
Speaker 2: I get the thirteen and so, you know, it was
Speaker 2: just one of those things. My interest was always there
Speaker 2: and I could never get away from it. Now was
Speaker 2: a vocation. Later I grew up, became educated, and I
Speaker 2: went into to the ministry for years and I'm still
Speaker 2: ordaining and that's still conducted, and so I'm busy in
Speaker 2: that world. And I'm also busy in the writing world
Speaker 2: with true crimes and occasionally things having to do with history.
Speaker 2: But that's where it all began when I was just
Speaker 2: a child, and it just kind of got a hook
Speaker 2: in me and it resonated, and so it's writing about
Speaker 2: true crime. It's still with me today. I'm not just reading.
Speaker 2: I've been writing about it for years now.
Speaker 6: So how do you come to what do you notice
Speaker 6: in true crime that seems to be a pattern from
Speaker 6: reading it for so long and noticed that as a
Speaker 6: as a gifted writer, you say, well, deez, I've never
Speaker 6: read anything like this, and then you just you know,
Speaker 6: you've come up with the idea of writing a book.
Speaker 6: How does this have an idea come how does it
Speaker 6: come about?
Speaker 2: Well? Through an Unlocked Door was a book that I
Speaker 2: had wanted to write about for many years, but I
Speaker 2: never could get around to it because there was always
Speaker 2: something else that needed to be done. But it was
Speaker 2: always in the back of my mind, and I remember
Speaker 2: cataloging within my mind. I would often hear about crimes.
Speaker 2: Now even understand a lot of murders, they occur outside
Speaker 2: the home. They would have nothing to do with unlocked
Speaker 2: doors or or unlocked windows or not having your house secured,
Speaker 2: but they would occur outside the home. Okay, And most
Speaker 2: of the murders I write about are that way as well.
Speaker 2: But I've always found it rather sinister when you think
Speaker 2: of someone creeping into somebody's home and awakening them for
Speaker 2: reasons of not just stealing from my house, but to
Speaker 2: commit violence and murder. And I know that I kept
Speaker 2: running track in my head about things over the years,
Speaker 2: and although I never saw any books written about murders
Speaker 2: that occur when there's easy access into the home because
Speaker 2: of the unlocked door. But I kept cataloging it. So
Speaker 2: when I decided to write this book. I have six
Speaker 2: different publishers, but McFarland, who was the publisher of my book,
Speaker 2: The Bundy Murders. Uh, they had started they've started a
Speaker 2: new imprint called Expositive Books, which deal a lot with
Speaker 2: true crime. And uh, they had been asking me to
Speaker 2: do a book for quite some time, and I just
Speaker 2: you know, it just didn't work out. And so we
Speaker 2: were talking and we uh I decided I asked him
Speaker 2: if I gave them the idea of this book, and
Speaker 2: and and we hammered out of the deal. And so
Speaker 2: I signed a contract and well the book and I thought, good,
Speaker 2: I'm going to finally be able to dig into this book.
Speaker 2: And then as I started to uh pull cases out
Speaker 2: from all different directions, Uh, you know, there's just just
Speaker 2: so many things what people do. Is the you know,
Speaker 2: the thing I discovered about uh murders that occur in
Speaker 2: when they enter through unlocked doors and windows where the
Speaker 2: home has not been secured. There seems to be a
Speaker 2: mindset like I don't know how it is in Canada
Speaker 2: or in some other countries. It's probably very similar to
Speaker 2: the United States. But there seems to be something intrinsic
Speaker 2: about the United States where many people in this country,
Speaker 2: for whatever reasons, don't lock their doors, especially in the
Speaker 2: better areas. Now, folks who normally have to live in
Speaker 2: high crime areas, they're pretty smart about it, and they'll
Speaker 2: lock their doors, not all of them, but they're better
Speaker 2: at it. But I've written books on before where I
Speaker 2: was covering cases where the occasional unlocks would come up
Speaker 2: and I would write about it. And I remember I
Speaker 2: was talking to a district attorney in Pennsylvania, and I've
Speaker 2: included this in my book about the Alec Rider murders.
Speaker 2: And the district attorney said that, of course, and you
Speaker 2: can see this in the record, that when this kid
Speaker 2: named Alec, who was sixteen, when he sneaked into his
Speaker 2: friend's house in the middle of the night with his
Speaker 2: best friend with the intention of murdering him and the
Speaker 2: entire family, he knew he would have no resistance because
Speaker 2: they kept their doors unlocked at night, and he walked
Speaker 2: right in and the slaughter began. Well, I was discussing
Speaker 2: this with the district attorney, because what's in the record
Speaker 2: is everybody was absolutely freaking out afterwards, and everybody in
Speaker 2: the neighborhood and in the surrounding area began not just
Speaker 2: locking their doors, purchasing more locks. If they didn't have
Speaker 2: a handgun, they purchased one or a shotgun, or if
Speaker 2: they did, they bought more ammunition. And some people were
Speaker 2: so terrified. I'm thinking of one man in particular. He
Speaker 2: couldn't sleep at night and he would stay up and
Speaker 2: look out of his window to see if anybody was coming.
Speaker 2: But as I discussed this with the district you know,
Speaker 2: he said, but you know, after a while, things got
Speaker 2: back to normal, and a lot of these very same
Speaker 2: people would not be so diligent as to lock their
Speaker 2: doors again, and a lot of people are leaving their
Speaker 2: doors unlocked. So it's an odd thing for me to
Speaker 2: see this, and as a crime writer, because true crime
Speaker 2: writers are as immersed in this stuff as police officers are.
Speaker 2: We're just not there to see the bodies up close
Speaker 2: and personal on the ground, but we go through all
Speaker 2: the reports, We many times visit the locations of the murders.
Speaker 2: We see what happened, We know what goes on, and
Speaker 2: when you know what goes on and you don't, and
Speaker 2: you know there are folks that they're not locking their doors.
Speaker 2: It was my aim with this book Through an Unlocked
Speaker 2: Door that everybody that reads this book, if they if
Speaker 2: they're not in the habit of locking their door, they
Speaker 2: serve they should lock their door because although a locked
Speaker 2: door will not deter someone from getting into your home,
Speaker 2: if they really want to get to you, they're going
Speaker 2: to have to break an enter not just have an
Speaker 2: unlawful entering through an unlocked door. They will have to
Speaker 2: break an entner. There's a reason why it's called that.
Speaker 2: And in doing so, you might use you might be
Speaker 2: roused from your sleep, a dog may hear you. There's
Speaker 2: been a number of people that come into homes like
Speaker 2: that that have been shot and killed. So you have
Speaker 2: a better chance than them walking in and waking you up.
Speaker 2: So my hope that this folks read this book, if
Speaker 2: they're not used to doing that, they will lock their doors.
Speaker 6: Now, you picked thirteen tails, and you say thirteen high
Speaker 6: profile tales. So if you could just list the kinds
Speaker 6: of cases and the killers that are well featured. For
Speaker 6: lack of better term, in this book, Yes, this cautionary tale.
Speaker 2: Yes, all of them. All thirteen cases have a theme
Speaker 2: inasmuch as either the doors or windows were not secured
Speaker 2: or Another thing that sometimes, you know people need to
Speaker 2: do is those who own houses with sliding own apartments
Speaker 2: or wherever you live with sliding glass doors, get a bar,
Speaker 2: a wooden bar, a metal bar, whatever you can get,
Speaker 2: and place it in on the endside of the doorway
Speaker 2: so that if somebody is able to trip that lock.
Speaker 2: And these aren't the greatest locks anyway on sliding glass doors,
Speaker 2: they will not be able to open that door because
Speaker 2: there's a bar there. And a number of the murders
Speaker 2: that that that what's his name, Danny Rolling committed he
Speaker 2: was able to get through one apartment anyway, just that way.
Speaker 2: And so these are all most of them are. Some
Speaker 2: of them made national news, some of them made news
Speaker 2: in the region that they were in, and some of
Speaker 2: them made news in just maybe a community, and then
Speaker 2: you know, it kind of rippled out from there. One
Speaker 2: of the strangest murders in this book that would not
Speaker 2: be considered how profile, but I had to add it
Speaker 2: because of how bizarre it was, was the case of
Speaker 2: a nurse, a fella that was a like I think
Speaker 2: it was a diabetic nurse up in Indianapolis, Indiana and
Speaker 2: a nice guy, a really nice guy. But something happened
Speaker 2: to him one night, you know, and he snapped and
Speaker 2: he got in his car and he drove from Indianapolis.
Speaker 2: Probably came through Louisville. Perhaps not. This trial hasn't even
Speaker 2: been adjudicated yet. The trial will start shortly.
Speaker 6: But he came.
Speaker 2: He got to the area of Lexington, Kentucky, which is
Speaker 2: an hour east of Louisville, and he drove another additional
Speaker 2: thirteen miles from the Lexton area to a small town
Speaker 2: called for Sales, Kentucky. I think population is around I
Speaker 2: think around four thousand. But now it's early in the
Speaker 2: morning hours. He pulls down he's never been on this
Speaker 2: street before. He pulls down the street and he stops
Speaker 2: at the home that is marked three hundred on Douglas Avenue,
Speaker 2: and it's at the corner of Douglas and Gray Street.
Speaker 2: Inside this home sleeping is a father, his son, a
Speaker 2: six year old boy, and his daughter. The mother who
Speaker 2: works for UPS is working. I believe that CPS was
Speaker 2: working third shift. She was not in home, so this
Speaker 2: otherwise and up to this point, normal man. That is,
Speaker 2: every body that knows him in Indy or put him
Speaker 2: in the hospital, just the normal guy. He goes up
Speaker 2: to the front steps. It's very quiet in the neighborhood.
Speaker 2: Nobody is out. He tries the front door and it's unlocked.
Speaker 2: He goes into the home. It's a two story home.
Speaker 2: He wanders around the first floor for just a short time.
Speaker 2: He goes into the kitchen and retrieves a butcher knife.
Speaker 2: He goes upstairs and he goes into this little boy's room,
Speaker 2: whose real name is Logan. I changed the names of
Speaker 2: the family because they requested it for the book, but
Speaker 2: the name of the killer is the same. And he
Speaker 2: stabbed this little boy to death in the head and neck.
Speaker 2: The sister tried to stop this man, and she was
Speaker 2: slightly injured, but she's okay. And the father, of course,
Speaker 2: hearing all this commotion, got up pinned the guy to
Speaker 2: the floor, and within a short time the police were there.
Speaker 2: And you know, if you look at how randomness is now,
Speaker 2: the thing about this is this whole crime, as terrible
Speaker 2: as it sounds, they very well have hinged on the
Speaker 2: door being unlocked because there's no there's nothing to show
Speaker 2: that he would have broken in, but he found it unlocked.
Speaker 2: He was obviously looking for the unlocked door and he
Speaker 2: found it. And I write about people. There's another person
Speaker 2: in the book who is his name is Adam Leroy
Speaker 2: Lane who was a trucker and he had a rule
Speaker 2: of thumb that he was only going to go into
Speaker 2: houses where the door was unlocked, and there were people
Speaker 2: that would hear occasionally when he was disliked. He used
Speaker 2: to have a time where he would like to strike
Speaker 2: around two am, and you know, sometimes people would hear
Speaker 2: their doorknob jiggle, and you know, I mean they would
Speaker 2: wake up and then he would move on. But there
Speaker 2: was nothing to stop him on some of these locations,
Speaker 2: and he was able to go into these homes and murder.
Speaker 2: So it's true that some killers will avoid any kind
Speaker 2: of house defense that you have of your garage doors locked,
Speaker 2: your front door's locked, your windows are locked. They just
Speaker 2: move on to other places, okay, because there is noise.
Speaker 2: It has to be created if they're going to break in,
Speaker 2: and that for some of these people is a little
Speaker 2: too risky. I mean, if you you know, we're normal people.
Speaker 2: I couldn't imagine walking into somebody's house even it was
Speaker 2: even if the door was unlocked, and wandering around their
Speaker 2: house in the dark. I mean, I would think, me
Speaker 2: be normal. Any minute, somebody's gonna pounce on me. But
Speaker 2: that fear isn't present within these people, and they're going
Speaker 2: in there with a mission. And the mission of the
Speaker 2: cases I write about is to murder. It's not even
Speaker 2: thet it's the mur And of course Richard Ramirez, who
Speaker 2: would you know, enter through unlocked doors or you know,
Speaker 2: windows that are open or something. He could, you know,
Speaker 2: jiggle the door and get into He would do so.
Speaker 2: And of course he was a thief, but he was
Speaker 2: also a diabolical murderer. So this is the result of
Speaker 2: you know, the last thing society wants to do is
Speaker 2: make it easy on people that want to harm us.
Speaker 2: But the greatest problem for unlocked doors is what's going
Speaker 2: on in the mind of the individual. And the problem
Speaker 2: with people is that most people don't think like this.
Speaker 2: Most people believe, well, everything is normal. And see, I've
Speaker 2: always believed for most of my life that everything will
Speaker 2: be normal and everything is normal until it's not. And
Speaker 2: you've got to remember when somebody enters your home and
Speaker 2: they come through an unlocked door and they have weapons
Speaker 2: or they have a weapon, and they wake you up.
Speaker 2: They're in charged. Now it's their home. It's no longer
Speaker 2: your home. You have no say in it. Your life
Speaker 2: depends on what they want to do with it. And
Speaker 2: when people blithely put themselves at risk by not securing
Speaker 2: their home, normally, they're doing so because the thought of
Speaker 2: murder or violence or anything like that is so far
Speaker 2: removed from their minds that they pretty contem confidently think, well,
Speaker 2: that happens to other people, but it just doesn't happen
Speaker 2: and won't happen to me. And that's the way that
Speaker 2: I don't want people to think. I don't like to
Speaker 2: frighten people, but there isn't any way that I would
Speaker 2: keep I don't even keep ride out of my home.
Speaker 2: My office is in my home, so my door is locked,
Speaker 2: even in the daytime. And there was a guy going
Speaker 2: through the neighborhood one day and he was jiggling doors,
Speaker 2: I mean the door knobs. And I had to get
Speaker 2: up one day and this guy had a rag in
Speaker 2: his hand and he said he was going to go
Speaker 2: around and you know, he's going around and polishing door knock. Well,
Speaker 2: what he's looking for is to get in and steal
Speaker 2: I'm sure, but this was very brazen of this individual,
Speaker 2: and it was broad daylight, so so you know, and
Speaker 2: with him, it's probably just that. And most people that
Speaker 2: leave their doors unlocked, they're probably going to escape from
Speaker 2: being murdered. But while I take the chance, and a
Speaker 2: person like me, I could not go to sleep with
Speaker 2: my house unlocked. That's how changed my mind is about
Speaker 2: this stuff. And you know, it's just you know, it's
Speaker 2: security all the way for me. And if that's just
Speaker 2: a normal way to live.
Speaker 6: You have two credibles examples in the cases of Danny
Speaker 6: Rowlings and Richard Ramirez. And the thing that I found
Speaker 6: was very very interesting because just you putting it together
Speaker 6: and me remember reading that, but just the separate ideas
Speaker 6: you put together is that Danny Rowlings claimed that there
Speaker 6: was a voice or a commanding voice called Gemini, and
Speaker 6: that when he went to one of the doors that
Speaker 6: was unlocked, he said it was locked, but after he
Speaker 6: summoned the demon Gemini, it's suddenly unlocked up, which I
Speaker 6: found was fascinating from two of the worst killers in
Speaker 6: through true crime history share at least that idea that
Speaker 6: if the door is unlocked, Satan helped me open that
Speaker 6: where certainly was Satan but.
Speaker 2: Right. But you know, the thing of it is is
Speaker 2: that there are some people out there that are demented,
Speaker 2: that you know they're been killers. Think, well, you know,
Speaker 2: they didn't mind me coming in because the door was unlocked.
Speaker 2: I mean, I write about, you know, Richard Chase, and
Speaker 2: I've written a book on him, Vampire, the Richard Chase Murders,
Speaker 2: and you know Chase, you know, he at one point
Speaker 2: he considered that he could just go in, you know.
Speaker 2: And one person reported that in one book that I
Speaker 2: read a long long time ago, that he felt he
Speaker 2: had even told somebody he felt like he was allowed
Speaker 2: to go in because the door was open. Chase was not.
Speaker 2: Richard Chase was not. He was deeply, deeply mentally disturbed,
Speaker 2: mentally ill, but he was not legally insane. He believed
Speaker 2: his blood was drying up and turning the powder. So
Speaker 2: the very fact that he thought he might be welcomed
Speaker 2: in the home, it's quite lausible. And a lot of
Speaker 2: these people that you know going to homes killers take
Speaker 2: advantage of this. The the doctor Pettitt family in Connecticut
Speaker 2: that I write about, who lost his wife and two daughters.
Speaker 2: That the person, the two the pair that murdered them.
Speaker 2: That was their first murder. The one guy, not Hayes,
Speaker 2: but commenced here whatever, Yes that thank you ask to
Speaker 2: looking up about the book. It's got a difficult name
Speaker 2: to pronounce it. I was writing it. I've learned to
Speaker 2: pronounce it. But he had been going into unlocked homes
Speaker 2: for many years and burglarizing, not harming anybody, and it
Speaker 2: just so happens that this time when this home and
Speaker 2: here's a doctor, but there was a door that was
Speaker 2: left unlatched and they got in. But this time it
Speaker 2: was going to be different, no matter how many homes
Speaker 2: they had previously burglarized. And that's another thing. It doesn't
Speaker 2: take somebody just coming in with the intention to kill.
Speaker 2: Sometimes someone could come in, perhaps with not the intention
Speaker 2: of killing, and it'll end up going down to the
Speaker 2: murder anyway. But your most dangerous situations are when they
Speaker 2: come in with the intention to kill. And that's what
Speaker 2: you know Chase would do. And he'd come right in
Speaker 2: and start blasting or whatever, and you know he had
Speaker 2: killed a young mother. That was her husband was at
Speaker 2: work and she had her day off, and you know,
Speaker 2: she was getting ready to carry the garbage outside, and
Speaker 2: the front door was unlocked, and he just waltzed right in.
Speaker 2: As soon as he saw her, he started, you know,
Speaker 2: he shut her a couple of times with a with
Speaker 2: a twenty two Lugos style pistol. And you know, now,
Speaker 2: had the door been locked, he may very well have
Speaker 2: gone to the next home. So these are things that
Speaker 2: show up in newspaper reports. They show up from time
Speaker 2: to time. People do here them, so, you know, but
Speaker 2: putting all these together in one book, I'm pretty convinced
Speaker 2: that somebody has been in the habit of not locking
Speaker 2: their doors. Once they read all these things from Danny
Speaker 2: roll into Richard, you know, you know, Ramirez, it's going
Speaker 2: to cause people to think twice because it's a it's
Speaker 2: a danger that they don't don't need to subject themselves
Speaker 2: to do everything you can to lock up. And then
Speaker 2: you've got you know, you've you've already won over half
Speaker 2: the battles just by doing that.
Speaker 6: You include the horrifying tale of Danny Rowlans. Let's go
Speaker 6: through a little bit of it, because even a little
Speaker 6: bit will shake shake you of your idea not to
Speaker 6: lock your doors ever again. So, UH talk a little
Speaker 6: bit about Danny. You talk about his life and everything,
Speaker 6: but let's talk about his idea of how he gets
Speaker 6: in and controls these people. And you talk about him
Speaker 6: watching these young girls at Walmut. So you talk about
Speaker 6: the twenty seventh here and Christina Powell Sonya Larson. These
Speaker 6: are seventeen and eighteen years old. University of Florida, Gainesville.
Speaker 6: Tell us a little bit about Rolling, what he does,
Speaker 6: how he achieves what he wants to do.
Speaker 2: Rolling was, you know, he came from a home that
Speaker 2: he had a lot of problems with his father. There
Speaker 2: were a lot of issues within the home, but none
Speaker 2: of that turned him into what he became. But Rolling
Speaker 2: was basically a loser in life. He never he had
Speaker 2: difficulty achieving. I don't think the desire to achieve was
Speaker 2: really there. But one thing he could do, and of
Speaker 2: course he was a thief. He robbed places. You know
Speaker 2: he was he was already before he had committed murder.
Speaker 2: He was going down a wrong road and he committed
Speaker 2: murders that he admitted to later. Even before Gainesville, he
Speaker 2: had uh killed some people earlier than that that they
Speaker 2: but what happened in Gainesville was just nothing short of diabolical.
Speaker 2: And it's pretty clear from Uh from what Rolling himself
Speaker 2: would say. There's a couple of good books out there
Speaker 2: on the case, and but Rolling beamed up with uh
Speaker 2: Soundra London I wrote this book, and if anybody reads
Speaker 2: Rolling's book, the main thread within his writing is there
Speaker 2: is a celebratory theme of the murders he that he committed.
Speaker 2: And it's real clear it's there. And you know, Rolling,
Speaker 2: when he would would break into these people, these these apartments,
Speaker 2: these places where these college kids lived, he knew he
Speaker 2: was going to murder them, and of course there would
Speaker 2: be the sexual assault that that occurs to and you know,
Speaker 2: there was absolutely no mercy on his part and never
Speaker 2: any any regret later because an interesting thing that I
Speaker 2: brought out in in the book is that he took
Speaker 2: he took joy in stabbing people as they slept. There's
Speaker 2: a there's a person in there they killed uh Manual
Speaker 2: Toboda and uh Toboda was stabbed, and there was there
Speaker 2: was a girl that that that Billy would also killed
Speaker 2: in the next room. They were sharing an apartment that
Speaker 2: they weren't boyfriend girlfriend, but they were sharing an apartment
Speaker 2: and uh, he starts stabbing him. He got into the apartment,
Speaker 2: he starts stabbing him immediately, because of course, being a male,
Speaker 2: he was the biggest threat to Voda. Immediately woke up,
Speaker 2: called out, thought he had been shot. Start fighting Rolling,
Speaker 2: and you know, he got into some some good punches,
Speaker 2: but Rolling stabbing so quickly with this knife that there
Speaker 2: was no way that that many commota was was going
Speaker 2: to survive. And he died with just a number of
Speaker 2: seconds after that. But when when Rolling was asked by
Speaker 2: somebody after he was incarcerated, what he considered would be
Speaker 2: the worst way to die, he said, uh, being stabbed,
Speaker 2: you know, you know what, well, I was asleep, and
Speaker 2: so you know, he took great pleasure in this stuff.
Speaker 2: And if you read his writing, like, I don't even
Speaker 2: recommend people by the book, but I got it because
Speaker 2: I was doing this. You know this this uh, this chapter,
Speaker 2: but it's very celebratory. You can tell he enjoyed the murders.
Speaker 2: He talks about the invoking of the demon and they
Speaker 2: were just very diabolical crimes. And you know, it's it's
Speaker 2: one thing to murder somebody. And it's another thing to
Speaker 2: want to do things that will where you glorify what
Speaker 2: you have done. And there was one individual that he
Speaker 2: killed there that he had murdered her. He had sexually
Speaker 2: assaulted her, and he had left the apartment and he
Speaker 2: was going on his way and he couldn't find his wallet.
Speaker 2: He went back to the apartment look for his wallet.
Speaker 2: I don't believe he ever located it. But while he
Speaker 2: was there, he said, this demon or whatever told him
Speaker 2: to cut the handle. He severed the head of the woman.
Speaker 2: And now what am I about to tell you? He
Speaker 2: did all of this for shock value, and it was
Speaker 2: very successful. He he pulled a bookshelf out of like
Speaker 2: a little alcove or whatever and placed it back way away,
Speaker 2: like maybe close to the bedroom, but it's where when
Speaker 2: the authorities would open the front door, they'd see it.
Speaker 2: And he propped her head on that shelf so that
Speaker 2: the people would see her head as soon as they
Speaker 2: came through the door. And incidentally, this girl that that
Speaker 2: he murdered was also worked for the Sheriff's department as
Speaker 2: a like a call person, like a nine to one
Speaker 2: one person, a person that takes calls and so everybody
Speaker 2: knew her, and you know, and he had taken the body,
Speaker 2: and this is this is so surreal, it's kind of
Speaker 2: it's just hard to imagine he had placed her naked
Speaker 2: body on the bed. She's sitting headless.
Speaker 6: On the.
Speaker 2: Edge of the bed with their feet on the floor.
Speaker 2: I believe it's her left arm that is laying, you know,
Speaker 2: kind of like stretched down like in a normal fashion,
Speaker 2: but her right arm is frozen in an upward movement,
Speaker 2: as if her arm is raised in the air. And
Speaker 2: the police officers that had to arrive there in one
Speaker 2: fellow around there first, and the entire apartment was dark,
Speaker 2: and he went around to the back and he was
Speaker 2: waiting for the like the superintendent of the department complex
Speaker 2: to bring a key. And he looked around the back
Speaker 2: and he could see that there was a gap in
Speaker 2: the where the glass door was, where the shades the blinds,
Speaker 2: he could he could look under and see her. And
Speaker 2: he shined his light underneath there and looked in there,
Speaker 2: and he saw that, and it so shocked him to
Speaker 2: see that he just immediately backed away from it.
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Speaker 1: Everybody lost in terms conditions eighteen plus, and he waited for.
Speaker 2: This second officer to show up, a female who happened
Speaker 2: to be actually the wife of another officer who had
Speaker 2: just been to Rowling's previous crime scene. You know, some
Speaker 2: like maybe not even twenty four hours earlier. So shocka.
Speaker 2: And he appreciated. It's like he was boasting and he
Speaker 2: wanted people to appreciate his work. Just this pure, pure,
Speaker 2: pure diabolical stuff. And for folks who don't believe in
Speaker 2: the death penalty, you know, I kind of sympathize with
Speaker 2: folks that don't because they mean to have the right thing.
Speaker 2: But if you look at somebody like Danny Rowing or
Speaker 2: a Ted Bundy or a Richard Chase, it's always been
Speaker 2: my opinion that when you have some people that are
Speaker 2: this diabolical, they're better off not being here. And you
Speaker 2: know that he committed these these murders in the the
Speaker 2: state of Florida just about his super his execution, and
Speaker 2: that's what ultimately happened to this guy. But his words
Speaker 2: will live on and he was, you know, he was
Speaker 2: concerned about that and that's why he wrote this book.
Speaker 2: But again it's he did it from the perspective of
Speaker 2: a celebratory thing for the murders he committed. And when
Speaker 2: he placed that head on that bookshelf, uh, it worked
Speaker 2: its magic, as it were, because they the officers said
Speaker 2: that as they came through, and of course they knew
Speaker 2: their friend had been murdered, they couldn't help but look
Speaker 2: at it, and they'd be conducting their work and they
Speaker 2: they'd look over at it again because they didn't move
Speaker 2: the head. They had to leave it in the crime scene.
Speaker 2: When you have a crime scene like that, it's going
Speaker 2: to remain at crime scene for many, many hours, and
Speaker 2: you got a lot of people working, and you got
Speaker 2: a lot of people and they so all of these
Speaker 2: people said, I just couldn't I couldn't believe it. It
Speaker 2: just it was past believing, and I would just occasionally
Speaker 2: glanced over. And so that's what rolling wonted. And so
Speaker 2: you know, it's just a strange, strange case.
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Speaker 6: to cook, Now, Kevin, you included Danny Rollings and people
Speaker 6: like Tommy Lynn Cells. Let's talk before we talk about
Speaker 6: Tommy Lynn Cells probably the most out of all these
Speaker 6: cases are shocking, but I think Tommy Lynn Sells is
Speaker 6: something that I will never forget some of the stuff
Speaker 6: in this book.
Speaker 2: But let's talk.
Speaker 6: About another infamous guy that had some similarities to Danny
Speaker 6: Rowlings in that as I've afore mentioned that he thought
Speaker 6: he had a gift from Satan or serving Satan as emissary.
Speaker 6: So tell us a little bit about what Richard Ramirez
Speaker 6: did and how on the unlocked window and door featured
Speaker 6: in those crimes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Ramirez, you know, he grew up in a family.
Speaker 2: The parents were hard working. Father worked for the railroad,
Speaker 2: the mom worked a nice shop, a boot factory, and
Speaker 2: just you know, normal people just trying to make a living.
Speaker 2: It was hard at a tough time. The other kids,
Speaker 2: you know, there were other kids there. It's interesting that
Speaker 2: Ramirez had a couple of head concussions when when he
Speaker 2: was small. I don't think there's any evidence that he's
Speaker 2: contributed to what he became. But you look at some
Speaker 2: of his pictures as a as a kid, he just
Speaker 2: looks like a nice kid, certainly a normal child, and
Speaker 2: then you think about how he turned out later. But
Speaker 2: you know, he he he became a thief when he
Speaker 2: was very young. He uh, you know, he learned how
Speaker 2: to slip in and out of homes. And of course
Speaker 2: for a long time they were just burglaries. He just
Speaker 2: he would steal things. But he got into Satanism and
Speaker 2: he got into drugs, and you know, he would spend
Speaker 2: time between his home in Texas and then he started
Speaker 2: going out to you know, Los Angeles and ultimately that
Speaker 2: is where he would create his murder in Mayhem, and
Speaker 2: it was it was out in La that that really
Speaker 2: if you read about the knight Stalker murders that you know,
Speaker 2: just the terror, you know, the chances of any one
Speaker 2: person encountering Ramirez even when this was going on, was
Speaker 2: so exceedingly remote, and yet some bud he was going
Speaker 2: to get murdered. And but you know, when you have
Speaker 2: murders like this, people are just you know, they just
Speaker 2: go bonkers. And you think everybody would lock down there
Speaker 2: they are places, but you know a lot of people
Speaker 2: they it was hot, it was exceedingly hot. They didn't
Speaker 2: have you know, air conditioners or whatever. And some people
Speaker 2: slept with guns by their night stand or what have you.
Speaker 2: But sometimes you know, they'd leave their windows open. But
Speaker 2: Ramirez would always look for a way to get in.
Speaker 2: And then again there were some people that he killed
Speaker 2: who refused to lock their doors, and even with the
Speaker 2: pleadings of family members, like there was one older lady,
Speaker 2: uh and she said, I just refused to be a
Speaker 2: prisoner in my own house. And you know, this was
Speaker 2: a nice lady, but it was a mindset she had
Speaker 2: and she just didn't feel like it was. She refused,
Speaker 2: it would be like maybe demeaning her if she had
Speaker 2: to live that way. But had the house been really secure,
Speaker 2: he may have gone on to you know, to somebody
Speaker 2: else's home. But there's also missed opportunities in in what
Speaker 2: happened with with with this killer, because he had burglarized
Speaker 2: one couple, uh and stolen from them, and about a
Speaker 2: year later he came back and killed the same couple. Uh.
Speaker 2: He came right back to that same house and got
Speaker 2: into them. Now, between the time when when when these
Speaker 2: folks were first burtalarized until they were murdered, they particularly
Speaker 2: bought a shotgun, kept a shotgun loaded under the bed,
Speaker 2: and the man had a handgun, uh, the woman had
Speaker 2: a forty five you know, uh automatic, and so they
Speaker 2: were they were well gone. Now when you're talking about
Speaker 2: this is the thing that people need to remember when
Speaker 2: you're talking about security in any form or fashion, consistency.
Speaker 2: In the military, they call it having your you know what,
Speaker 2: wire tight at all times. You can't not have it
Speaker 2: wired tight. People that don't will die. You've got to
Speaker 2: keep your stuff wied tight at all times. So it's
Speaker 2: consistency you're doing the same thing day in, day out
Speaker 2: for your security, just in case the unthinkable happens. Well,
Speaker 2: this couple was in theory well prepared for a return
Speaker 2: visit for just a burglar. They're not even thinking in
Speaker 2: terms not even thinking in terms of murder. And they
Speaker 2: kept this shotgun under their bedloaded all the time. But
Speaker 2: the grandchildren had come over just the weekend before Chase
Speaker 2: attacked them, and being a mark granddad, he unloaded the
Speaker 2: shotgun because he didn't want the kids finding it and
Speaker 2: some terrible misshap which is a smart thing, because it
Speaker 2: wasn't locked up. However, when the kids left, he failed
Speaker 2: to load it. And when Ramirez broke in. And you know,
Speaker 2: people will read in the book, if they've never read
Speaker 2: about him, they'll they'll read about this. He would wake
Speaker 2: up people being violent. He would slap them, he would
Speaker 2: beat them, and then he would also he's looking for stuff.
Speaker 2: He's looking for stuff to steal. Even before the murders occurred.
Speaker 2: Usually he would kill the or otherwise take out the
Speaker 2: mail in the house. But he was in this particular
Speaker 2: house and he was he had been He had awakened
Speaker 2: her and already attacked her husband, and he was rooting
Speaker 2: around for something. She pulled the shotgun out from under
Speaker 2: the bed. He turns around and man, she has got
Speaker 2: him dead to rights. She pulls the trigger and it
Speaker 2: just clicked. No shotgun blast, shotgunshelves. She could have killed
Speaker 2: him right there now. That would have saved her own life,
Speaker 2: and that would have prevented additional murders from occurring. But
Speaker 2: she did not. But it didn't work out. Of course,
Speaker 2: then he might have let her live. He might sometimes
Speaker 2: he did let people the female lives and usually when
Speaker 2: that happened, they normally had a child there. But but
Speaker 2: but even then that wasn't a guarantee. But he killed
Speaker 2: her after that, and so that was what what's a
Speaker 2: missed opportunity? But you have to look, you have to
Speaker 2: look for why that happened, and it's from the lack
Speaker 2: of consistency, Like the Grandad did the right thing, but
Speaker 2: unloading it. But you can't drop the ball on this stuff.
Speaker 2: You gotta load the weapon back up. You gotta keep
Speaker 2: locking your doors. And so Ramirius, like with all killers,
Speaker 2: took advantage of wherever someone had let down their guard.
Speaker 2: He depended upon it. And by the way, he was
Speaker 2: a satan worshiper. But this is this is this is
Speaker 2: ironic both and funny. He was a Satan, you know,
Speaker 2: worshiper and he uh would would mockingly make people repeat
Speaker 2: that they love Satan or whatever, and the people would
Speaker 2: do it, not not meaning it, just to not be killed.
Speaker 2: And when when they discovered who this was and they
Speaker 2: were putting posters out on him, Ramirez found himself in
Speaker 2: a store where people were recognizing him and he ended
Speaker 2: up being chased and beaten by a lot of people.
Speaker 2: And when the police officer finally showed up as he
Speaker 2: was laying bloodied and beaten all this this curb, the
Speaker 2: first thing he says was thank god you that you're here.
Speaker 2: Can you imagine that he said, thank God you're here.
Speaker 2: But uh yeah, And so you know, Ramirez was an evil,
Speaker 2: diabolical individual, but he looked for the unlocked door or
Speaker 2: unlocked window, and more than not he found it.
Speaker 6: And you're right, we won't get into too much of
Speaker 6: the detail. But you do in the book is that
Speaker 6: these guys Ramerez and and Tommy lin sells, uh huh,
Speaker 6: there is when you talk about no remorse, there are
Speaker 6: some people. There are times when these killers will let
Speaker 6: somebody go that's compliant. There's examples in here where they'll
Speaker 6: let them go if there's a child, and then there's
Speaker 6: other people that will be the exact, the exact opposite
Speaker 6: of that. And you talk about this Nettie and her
Speaker 6: sister and she's in a wheelchair, and yet he's carving
Speaker 6: pentagrams in bodies. Yes, yes, yes, maybe part of the
Speaker 6: retail is that these are the kind of killers that
Speaker 6: are not typical, but yet when they reac havoc, this
Speaker 6: will last for generations.
Speaker 2: Right right. I mean, the fear level in in in
Speaker 2: l A Was just off the charts, and everybody, everybody thought,
Speaker 2: you know, the fat he couldn't have visited everybody again,
Speaker 2: your chance of becoming a nice salpera victim was extremely low.
Speaker 2: But for those that he that that that that total
Speaker 2: victim to him, you know, it was just it was horrible.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's even a story I included there from
Speaker 2: a newspaper article where you know, people were in fear
Speaker 2: and sure enough he had struck just a few doors down,
Speaker 2: so you know, and in fact, Ramirez even was trying
Speaker 2: to get into a window where where a sheriff's deputy
Speaker 2: lived and the wife heard somebody trying to raise the
Speaker 2: window and he said, it can't be. I painted that
Speaker 2: thing shut. He said, I'm telling you, he's trying to
Speaker 2: get in. If there's something going on, there's somebody doing
Speaker 2: And of course it was him, and you know, so
Speaker 2: he had to go on to to you know, something else.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's it's the psychological aspects of the fear
Speaker 2: that these people create is what creates the pandemonium. When
Speaker 2: a diabolical murder happens in the home, Chances are the
Speaker 2: people that did it will not be coming back to
Speaker 2: that area. They're just not going to do it now.
Speaker 2: There could be a flop where they would, but chances
Speaker 2: are there not. But the people that live in that area,
Speaker 2: especially on the same street or within blocks, there's this
Speaker 2: this this it's like pouring throwing a match into rocket fuel.
Speaker 2: There's just bursts of pandemonium and fear, and for a
Speaker 2: while it's way over the top, far more than it
Speaker 2: should be, and they go just off the charts and
Speaker 2: what they need to do to protect themselves. What's interesting
Speaker 2: psychologically is that over a period of time, while some
Speaker 2: people will remain locking their doors that weren't before, sometimes
Speaker 2: the majority of those that started locking their doors would
Speaker 2: fall off again. Now that is a problem in the mind,
Speaker 2: and that is the thing that is you can do
Speaker 2: a psychological study on it. It's really interesting.
Speaker 6: When I talked about Nettie, it was Florence Nettie Lang.
Speaker 6: She was eighty one years old, and her sister was
Speaker 6: Mabel Bell, she was eighty three. This is interesting. They
Speaker 6: didn't believe in locking doors, and the family had implored
Speaker 6: them to lock the door, and they said, no, we don't,
Speaker 6: we don't want to live behind locked doors. And so
Speaker 6: this is incredibly ironic. You have two or three cases
Speaker 6: out of there, more and more where the people were
Speaker 6: adamant that way that they were warned. So in retrospect
Speaker 6: they can't believe that they were warned by family members
Speaker 6: about exactly that. And yet these are the people that
Speaker 6: were attacked and the worst, the worst attacks with these
Speaker 6: people actually this absolutely yeah. It's just you know, and
Speaker 6: when you're confronted with that and you're trying to convince
Speaker 6: somebody to lock their doors and they're saying they're not
Speaker 6: going to live like that, it's almost like there's a
Speaker 6: stronghold in their mind. They built up an image and
Speaker 6: a belief system within their mind. And for some people
Speaker 6: it's very very difficult to crack. And you know, people
Speaker 6: if they would spend a little time researching and thinking
Speaker 6: about things and just doing a little bit of study
Speaker 6: on something like this, they could see the wisdom in
Speaker 6: locking their doors. Or there's other precautions you can take,
Speaker 6: even beyond the home, to make sure that you don't
Speaker 6: all victim of the crime.
Speaker 2: I mean this thing you need. People need to remember
Speaker 2: about people that are out there that want to do
Speaker 2: harm to people. And when I say do harm, it's
Speaker 2: not just to you know, punch them or whatever. It's
Speaker 2: to take their life. It's to do something very bad
Speaker 2: to them and kill them. Remember this. They're looking for
Speaker 2: the opportunity. They're looking for the easy mark. They're looking
Speaker 2: for the female walking late at night alone. They're looking
Speaker 2: for the kid that's walking around unattended. I'll never forget.
Speaker 2: There was a killer that was getting ready to be
Speaker 2: put to death and he said it killed some children.
Speaker 2: And he said, they said, what would you tell parents?
Speaker 2: He said, tell parents to tell their children if they're
Speaker 2: ever grabbed, to start screaming, kicking and fighting and making
Speaker 2: as much noise as possible, because very often we'll let
Speaker 2: them go because it's just too much. And I wrote
Speaker 2: about the case just like that to where a guy
Speaker 2: tried to grab one kid and she fought him, and
Speaker 2: he actually put the child down grab someone else, and
Speaker 2: the other kid just offered no resistance at all, And
Speaker 2: so there's a validity there. This guy knew what he
Speaker 2: was talking about. So prepare yourself for the terrible thing
Speaker 2: that probably will never come. But make yourself safe by
Speaker 2: locking your doors, because it could be that evil will
Speaker 2: come to you. Try the door, find it locked, and
Speaker 2: move on, and you'll stay safe in your beds.
Speaker 6: If someone is hell bent.
Speaker 2: Though.
Speaker 6: You talk about Ramirez using and you can tell us
Speaker 6: about this, the doggy door or the cat door, the
Speaker 6: door that we would think that no one could possibly
Speaker 6: get in except some really very small person. How does that?
Speaker 6: How do they get in through there? And how's that
Speaker 6: not safe?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, we've always had dogs, and you know,
Speaker 2: and some of them were small. But my wife and
Speaker 2: I would never have anything like that because we'd be
Speaker 2: concerned someone would get in. And in the case of
Speaker 2: what he did there, he widened it my understanding, he
Speaker 2: was able to widen it and he was a pretty
Speaker 2: thin guy anyway, and he was able to just get
Speaker 2: in there. So anytime you do something that creates an opening,
Speaker 2: if that opening can be abused or you know, worked
Speaker 2: on where it can be widened, then you're looking for
Speaker 2: problems to happen. You got to remember it was Ted
Speaker 2: Bundy who was able to escape by going up through
Speaker 2: a light fixture that that wasn't bolted right, and he
Speaker 2: got up in the thing and moved and they looked
Speaker 2: at that thing before hid he said, well, it's due
Speaker 2: to be welded, but there's no way a human can
Speaker 2: get up there and go through there. But he lost
Speaker 2: the little weight and he was able to do it.
Speaker 2: So and that's somebody that is in captivity. And so here,
Speaker 2: you know, here Ramirez is out. He comes to this
Speaker 2: thing and I don't know, don't remember what he used
Speaker 2: to widen it, but he did so it was just
Speaker 2: enough where he could just really what he was doing.
Speaker 2: He was snaking himself through and he was able to
Speaker 2: get in there, and it was one thing was in
Speaker 2: then it all belonged to him. And even he had
Speaker 2: this feeling he knew once he was in the apartment
Speaker 2: because he know he always had a twenty two or
Speaker 2: something on him. Once he was in the apartment, it's
Speaker 2: almost like he could relax because he worked the apartment
Speaker 2: by way of the pin light, and the people were
Speaker 2: sound asleep, and should anybody get up, he knew he
Speaker 2: could shoot them immediately, so there was no real threat
Speaker 2: to him. The danger part. I think what he considered
Speaker 2: to be the toughest part was just getting in. Once
Speaker 2: he was in and shut the door behind him, he
Speaker 2: knew that he was in control. And that is very,
Speaker 2: very common for these killers.
Speaker 6: When you talk about control. The very diabolical Tommy Lynn
Speaker 6: Sells killed women and children, enjoyed all of it. His
Speaker 6: nickname was.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 6: Tell us about he meets him and his wife Jessica,
Speaker 6: meet Terry and Crystal Harris Trailer and their two children.
Speaker 6: Tell us how this diabolical man operates and uses the
Speaker 6: unlocked door, unlocked window, and these people's trust.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, Cells is a complete psychopath. I mean
Speaker 2: all these people are psychopaths, you know, just completely unfeeling,
Speaker 2: completely without remorse. I always thought it was odd that
Speaker 2: the Cells and his wife would attend this church in Texas.
Speaker 2: And if I'm if I'm not mistake, and I think
Speaker 2: that's where they met each other, the Harrises, and they
Speaker 2: became friends. And it's different for them were friends. I mean,
Speaker 2: you wouldn't make you harm somebody's child of a friend,
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, he just would You just wouldn't
Speaker 2: do that. And it turns out that, you know, while
Speaker 2: mister Harris was gone to help another couple move because
Speaker 2: the Harris had moved to Texas from from another state
Speaker 2: and it was folks that come down to visit. They
Speaker 2: wanted to move to Texas too, so he went back
Speaker 2: with them. Oddly ran into cells that very day, Sells
Speaker 2: learned that he was going to be out of town,
Speaker 2: and you know, he goes and here's people he knows,
Speaker 2: you know, Missus Harris is at home, and the daughters
Speaker 2: at home, and of course there's there's also the boy
Speaker 2: and the boy's blind. Uh, and then and there's a
Speaker 2: friend over. Well Sales comes over and he goes through
Speaker 2: this open window and uh, he goes through the boys
Speaker 2: room and the boy can't see, but uh, you know,
Speaker 2: he gets into the other and he looks in on
Speaker 2: on on Missus Harris and she's sleeping with with with
Speaker 2: one of the kids and then he goes into uh,
Speaker 2: the daughter's room that also has a friend up and yeah, right,
Speaker 2: and then has the friend up in the top bunk
Speaker 2: and uh, you know, he's wanting to you know, he
Speaker 2: wakes her up, wanting to molest her, but he's got
Speaker 2: his knife, and of course the ultimate happens. You know,
Speaker 2: she tries to break away, and he stabs her numerous
Speaker 2: times and she you know, falls up against the wall
Speaker 2: and collapses. Blood is everywhere, and he doesn't at that
Speaker 2: point see the little girl up in the bed her friend,
Speaker 2: and but he spots her right before and of course
Speaker 2: he stabs her or two uh you know, and leaves
Speaker 2: her for dead. Uh and then uh he you know,
Speaker 2: he goes back out and and but thank god, she lives,
Speaker 2: and she makes her way to uh a couple's place,
Speaker 2: and you know, the couple that lets her in and
Speaker 2: the man you know helping her. He thinks she's gonna
Speaker 2: die on him any moment. She bleeding profusely, but she survives,
Speaker 2: and she testifies against him. And uh, Sells is just
Speaker 2: a Sells is a walking murder machine without any conscience whatsoever.
Speaker 2: And I believe I include uh a Radford psychology thing
Speaker 2: on him in the book as well, with some legend
Speaker 2: of his life, the different events in his life. But yeah,
Speaker 2: he's just, uh, you know, it's just a worthless, worthless individual.
Speaker 2: And the father mentioned, you know, when Sales was finally
Speaker 2: put put to death, you know, his daughter had died
Speaker 2: so horribly that the dad, you know, he's a normal guy.
Speaker 2: But he said, you know, after the drugs, you know,
Speaker 2: went into his vein and see that we do this
Speaker 2: all the sanitized business. When when you execute somebody, he said,
Speaker 2: he said, it looks like the dude just went to sleep.
Speaker 2: And that's the truth. Sells just went to sleep, and
Speaker 2: that was it. But uh yeah, a very very evil,
Speaker 2: evil individual and uh no, no thought about killing children, adults.
Speaker 2: And yet you know, from the outside he could be
Speaker 2: a very nice person. Certainly the harrises like him. Thought
Speaker 2: he was a normal individual, and you know he could
Speaker 2: be funny or whatever. But again it's what's lurking on
Speaker 2: the inside of that that person. So yeah, so but
Speaker 2: he was finally put to death, and uh and and
Speaker 2: that was a good thing for the world.
Speaker 6: Can you talk about cells admitted to.
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Speaker 6: Crime and then even demonstrated for the police step by
Speaker 6: step reenactment, crawling through the window for a reenactment. Yeah,
Speaker 6: they filmed. The police filmed the event.
Speaker 2: So yes, I've seen that.
Speaker 6: He talked, Oh yes, and he talked about the incredible
Speaker 6: rush he got from killing. Yes, yes, yes, you include
Speaker 6: some of his early life though there's some tell tale
Speaker 6: events I would say that would purport for later disaster.
Speaker 6: So maybe you can include some of the things, you know,
Speaker 6: the funeral of what he claimed his first murder was.
Speaker 6: Tell us a little bit about some of the things
Speaker 6: he claimed later.
Speaker 2: Which were Now are you speaking of the thing where
Speaker 2: there was an interesting case where there was a a
Speaker 2: murder that occurred in a half while the father was away.
Speaker 2: Is that the one that you were If you can
Speaker 2: bring me up which murder you're talking at because there
Speaker 2: was so many in that book. I can't really remember
Speaker 2: what I.
Speaker 6: Was talking about. Started talking about his background. When he
Speaker 6: talked about he claimed his first murder was at fifteen,
Speaker 6: and then he talked about crawling into bed naked with
Speaker 6: his grandma. Then he was strange behavior when his father
Speaker 6: died around the funeral casket. He talked about, you know,
Speaker 6: just the tried to rape his own mother. That was officials.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well yeah, he was very sexually, you know,
Speaker 2: messed up. And I think that Radford report, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: that that that documents it. He yeah, very strange stuff.
Speaker 2: And that's right. He had committed this first moto, I
Speaker 2: think at fifteen, and so you know, I don't know what.
Speaker 2: You know. That's the thing about these killers. They leave
Speaker 2: this terrible destruction in their wake. And then in retrospect
Speaker 2: we go back and we look and we see these things.
Speaker 2: We see these sexual problems they add, and we see
Speaker 2: the things that occurred and whether there were beatings from
Speaker 2: the parents or whatever. We look at all this, and
Speaker 2: yet at no time can we pinpoint where they passed
Speaker 2: from the if they were abused child to then the
Speaker 2: evergrowing predator. And you look at the life of Sales.
Speaker 2: I don't know of any point in life that you
Speaker 2: could point to that even looks normal. And you know,
Speaker 2: except when he was just a very very small child.
Speaker 2: So you know, these signs of you can't get more
Speaker 2: weird than one of the girl in bed with your
Speaker 2: grandmother or you know, and sex with a family member.
Speaker 2: So you know, he was he was off the rails
Speaker 2: from an early point as far as his personality. But
Speaker 2: when it got into the killing of people and how
Speaker 2: he killed them and the the remorseless aspect of how
Speaker 2: he could recount it. I mean some of these killers,
Speaker 2: I mean they and you know Bundy was this way
Speaker 2: he can recount things, and you know which is Mike
Speaker 2: Mike Fisher said, uh, he might say something about the
Speaker 2: murder and it's like he could have said, pass me
Speaker 2: the sugar. Complete indifference to the victim. And so Sales
Speaker 2: was well one person that once he was captured, he
Speaker 2: just liked to talk about He would talk and you
Speaker 2: know this is against the advice of his attorneys, but
Speaker 2: he would give interviews, talk kinds of stuff, and he
Speaker 2: just wanted to talk, talk and talk, which I actually
Speaker 2: think was a good thing because the more people hear
Speaker 2: about how these people think and how they were. You know,
Speaker 2: the better off they'll be because just some astounding stuff
Speaker 2: that he did. And yeah, he would boast of the
Speaker 2: fact that, you know, he would kill from coast to coast,
Speaker 2: so he was sometimes a mobile killer, and he would
Speaker 2: leave a trail of bloodshed, you know, wherever he went.
Speaker 6: You talk about November eighty seven. This is again some
Speaker 6: of the well, this is probably one of the worst
Speaker 6: things I've ever read.
Speaker 2: This.
Speaker 6: Russell Darden Dardine.
Speaker 2: Twenty nine years old.
Speaker 6: His wife is Ruby is thirty, and he has a
Speaker 6: little son, Peter, three years old, and Ruby is seven
Speaker 6: months pregnant. And he's watching these people and he knocks
Speaker 6: on their door and tell us about this ruse. How
Speaker 6: does he try to approach these people? This isn't an
Speaker 6: unlocked door. But what does he first try to do
Speaker 6: and then tell us about this?
Speaker 2: Yeah, when people read the book, they'll notice that I
Speaker 2: will include other things that happened that didn't happen through
Speaker 2: an unlocked door, even though the person would look for
Speaker 2: an unlocked door. What have you to make it easier
Speaker 2: just because of the totality of the crimes, So they
Speaker 2: get a good picture of who they're dealing with now
Speaker 2: in that case, correct me if I'm wrong, But I
Speaker 2: believe that's where he was. Was that where he was
Speaker 2: wanting to act like he wanted to purchase the house,
Speaker 2: and they opened the door, and yeah, that was it.
Speaker 2: That was it, and then he made his way in
Speaker 2: with force, and Uh, you're right. The murder of that family,
Speaker 2: I think that's probably the most horrendous murder that I've
Speaker 2: ever that I've ever written about, because she was pregnant
Speaker 2: and because of what happened with the beating of everybody
Speaker 2: with the bat and stuff, and the I mean he's
Speaker 2: killing her, the other child, that he's killing the baby
Speaker 2: inside her. I mean, it just it's the stuff. It's
Speaker 2: really the stuff of like a horror movie where if
Speaker 2: you went to the theater, you'd have everybody screaming, but
Speaker 2: everybody would be saying something that horrible could not happen,
Speaker 2: and yet it did happen. And this stuff that when
Speaker 2: murder occurs like this, this is really the unthinkable. I mean,
Speaker 2: there are I've written about people like that. I've written
Speaker 2: about coups that have they're hardened detectives. I mean, they're
Speaker 2: veterans and even these folks sometimes come into these crime
Speaker 2: scenes and it's very difficult for them to take and
Speaker 2: they've seen a lot, and so coming in to to
Speaker 2: those who had to come in I already knew from
Speaker 2: the description, but people will read about it of the
Speaker 2: brutality of how he killed the Guardine family. I guarantee
Speaker 2: you that those people that came in there, that had
Speaker 2: to work the forensics of that and the crime scene,
Speaker 2: that's something that they will never forget. Winn's surprised me
Speaker 2: if they didn't have to attend some kind of counseling,
Speaker 2: because it was the most horrendous thing that anybody could
Speaker 2: think of.
Speaker 6: Yeah, this this idea that he would you know, I
Speaker 6: couldn't even believe it. He pulled the man's pants down
Speaker 6: and cut his genitals off and then was crash dead.
Speaker 6: Said I'm going to take this to your wife. I'll
Speaker 6: take this to your wife, Yes, and then dashed in
Speaker 6: the little baby's head. That it was sickening. It's sickening
Speaker 6: to read. It's unbelievable that, I mean, you just keep
Speaker 6: reading the depths of depravity that some of these killers. Yeah,
Speaker 6: in the good old days of when they took a
Speaker 6: while to catch these people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this type of murder makes a simple shooting look
Speaker 2: almost sanitized, you know what I'm saying. As evil as
Speaker 2: someone shooting somebody and killing them, this type of murder
Speaker 2: is unthinkable. You know, most people, most people out there,
Speaker 2: most people in prison, most people who have killed people,
Speaker 2: wouldn't wouldn't do these things. In fact, when Richard Chase
Speaker 2: was in jail, there were two reactions. Out of the
Speaker 2: violent people, they're the killers. Some of them said give
Speaker 2: him to us, We'll take care of them. But you
Speaker 2: had very hardened people there who were telling the jail staff,
Speaker 2: we can't sleep having him there us. It's bothering us
Speaker 2: having this guy near us, because they knew of all
Speaker 2: the things that he had done. And so even what
Speaker 2: we would call bad people were very upset with these
Speaker 2: kinds of actions. And yeah, and if you don't have
Speaker 2: to take anything beyond the murder of the Dardine family
Speaker 2: to know that the most diabolical things that could happen
Speaker 2: to a family did happen on that day to then,
Speaker 2: And there's really nothing else he could have done more horrible,
Speaker 2: unless he just would have kept him alive and just
Speaker 2: tortured him for days. If you think about what it
Speaker 2: takes to take a baseball bat and do that to
Speaker 2: somebody and willingly do it, enjoy doing it. I mean,
Speaker 2: you look at a guy like selves, you think you
Speaker 2: can't be human, You can't be but he was. And
Speaker 2: the mystery of how he got that way is something
Speaker 2: we'll never know, and I guess we should tell tell
Speaker 2: you know, the listeners that he had taken mister Dardine
Speaker 2: out and away from the family and I don't know,
Speaker 2: maybe a mile or two away on the grounds of
Speaker 2: this place near like a school, and mister Dardine tried
Speaker 2: to gain the upper hand, and of course selves killed
Speaker 2: him and then you know, cut off his genlemals as
Speaker 2: you say. And the reason why I mentioned that because
Speaker 2: about the killing off site, is because when they came
Speaker 2: and saw the Guardian family dead and they couldn't find
Speaker 2: mister Guardine, just temporarily he was considered a suspect and
Speaker 2: then it wasn't long after that they located the body
Speaker 2: and then they knew it was it was someone else.
Speaker 2: So uh yeah, And you know, when you don't leave
Speaker 2: a lot of trace evidence behind, which which Cells apparently
Speaker 2: did not, then you know, for his cribs it. You know,
Speaker 2: you have to have some luck to finally, you know,
Speaker 2: nab somebody. But he was able to go on from
Speaker 2: there and kill and then, you know, it's just one
Speaker 2: of those things. He was a killing machine and he
Speaker 2: wasn't going to stop killing. He didn't even want to
Speaker 2: stop killing. And uh, you know, there are some people
Speaker 2: out there like that, and when they're like that, they
Speaker 2: have to either be killed out right or incarcerated for
Speaker 2: the rest of their life, or incarcerated for a while
Speaker 2: then put to death because there's no way, there's no
Speaker 2: way these people can be rehabilitated. That's why. That's why.
Speaker 2: You know, who wasn't the lady one of the main
Speaker 2: ancient people. They were going to parole her and there
Speaker 2: was just an outcry in California and her parole was
Speaker 2: then denied again, it was reversed. And you know they
Speaker 2: say that text want I mean, I'm a Christian, I'm
Speaker 2: a minister. They say, text Watson is a borner, good Christian.
Speaker 2: Now I think that's great for that. I think Texas
Speaker 2: stay in prison for the rest of his life and
Speaker 2: minister there and if we're out today, he wouldn't be
Speaker 2: staying in my house that's okay, that's just the way
Speaker 2: it is. So I think mister Watson needs to stay
Speaker 2: there so I can understand the outcry in California about that.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, we have time for one more again, this incredible
Speaker 6: cautionary tale tale that a lot of people knew about this.
Speaker 6: This resonated nationally and internationally to the case of Pouly
Speaker 6: Klaus nineteen ninety three living with her mom and there's
Speaker 6: a half sister and there's a slumber part. Again, you
Speaker 6: can't even get a more innocent scenario. After Tommy Lynn's sales,
Speaker 6: we got the poly class story. But again, tell us
Speaker 6: what happens with this and how it comes to be
Speaker 6: that this polycloss is disappeared.
Speaker 2: Well, it's a if you read it that that that
Speaker 2: is the one chapter that I included the reports, a
Speaker 2: lot of them verbatim because they tell you so much.
Speaker 2: And you know here it was an innocent sleepover and
Speaker 2: the door was left unlocked that night, and of course
Speaker 2: this Richard Allen Davis was able to get in and
Speaker 2: take her. But but even before we talk about that,
Speaker 2: Mark Cloth, her father, he uh, he talked, he talked
Speaker 2: about how Polly, this is so surreal used to have
Speaker 2: a fear of some but he coming in, a man
Speaker 2: coming into their home and taking her away. Can you
Speaker 2: imagine that this came out? The dad talked about it,
Speaker 2: and it's so weird. And that night they were playing
Speaker 2: makeup and one person, you know, it was while Halloween.
Speaker 2: One person was doing one thing and they were making
Speaker 2: up Polly to look dead. It isn't that a horrible irony?
Speaker 2: And yet, and yet, so Richard Allen Davis, just the
Speaker 2: scum of the earth was able to come in through
Speaker 2: a locked door. Again, had the door been locked, I
Speaker 2: do not believe for a second he would have broken in.
Speaker 2: But he came through the unlocked door. We can't know
Speaker 2: that for sure. But he came through the unlocked door
Speaker 2: and he got her. And what is so terrible is
Speaker 2: that he had his car, had had a problem and
Speaker 2: gone off into like a little ditch or whatever, and
Speaker 2: the police had come. He had put Polly on the
Speaker 2: like a little hillside. He said that she was still
Speaker 2: alive at that time. And because there was a breakdown
Speaker 2: in some stuff, there wasn't that police department didn't know
Speaker 2: that there was like an app out on a on
Speaker 2: a on a missing child, and there was just some
Speaker 2: things that felt through the cracks and uh and then
Speaker 2: they you know, they he was on private property. Really
Speaker 2: what this happened? He was told to leave, the car
Speaker 2: got out, he was told to leave, and then uh
Speaker 2: uh and then he said that he you know, he
Speaker 2: called her afterwards. So it was just a terrible, terrible case.
Speaker 2: And of course the house is still there in the Pedaluma, California,
Speaker 2: and it's across from this Wickerson Park and then there's
Speaker 2: another park down the street, and it's the kind of
Speaker 2: place that you would you would look to for safety,
Speaker 2: and it's just a nice neighbor hood. But again, no
Speaker 2: matter where you live, no matter how nice it is,
Speaker 2: you have to remember this. Evil isn't in the air.
Speaker 2: Evil is in people, and wherever people go there can
Speaker 2: be evil. And so take the nicest area, you still
Speaker 2: have to be on guard. You still have to lock
Speaker 2: your doors or there can be a tragedy.
Speaker 6: Tell Us of the incredible response to this incredible class.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, the actress went on a rider, was
Speaker 2: from Petaluma, and when Polly was missing, you know, they
Speaker 2: still didn't know. They assumed she was missing, kidnapped and hopefully,
Speaker 2: you know, presumed alive. She had put up two hundred
Speaker 2: thousand dollars of her own length, a lot of money today,
Speaker 2: but leaving more money dead, put up two hundred thousand
Speaker 2: dollars for her safe return. And they had started a
Speaker 2: you know, a thing to just a massive thing to
Speaker 2: uh to find her. And of course after she was
Speaker 2: found dead, there was a real letdown to the you know,
Speaker 2: you know community. But UH, good things, something good was
Speaker 2: born out of it. And UH, if you could ever
Speaker 2: bring some good out of something that's so horrible, then
Speaker 2: it's always good to do. And Mark klass is Uh,
Speaker 2: he's got his own organization, uh to make people aware
Speaker 2: of these things, and and and and his and Polly's
Speaker 2: mother and of course you know they were divorced, but
Speaker 2: Polly's mom has her organization and they it's not just
Speaker 2: keeping Polly alive. That's not what in the memory of people.
Speaker 2: That's not what this is about. It's keeping kids safe,
Speaker 2: making parents aware, you know, providing kids for for people
Speaker 2: to understand the need to protect that if the worst happens, Uh,
Speaker 2: there's a chance to get your kid back. And so
Speaker 2: they have turned what was a terrible destruction at least
Speaker 2: good was born out of it, and I'm sure it's
Speaker 2: helped them emostly, uh through you know, throughout the years.
Speaker 2: And terrible, terrible story. She's a beautiful little girl that
Speaker 2: was taken. It was just horrible.
Speaker 6: You talk about another case to the last story in
Speaker 6: the book, why include that story and tell us a
Speaker 6: little bit about it.
Speaker 2: Well, that was the story. That last story was the
Speaker 2: was the thing of the nurse and the one that
Speaker 2: happened in Brusales, Kentucky. And I wanted to include it
Speaker 2: because it was so incredibly bizarre. It's never going to
Speaker 2: get the airplay that's something like a uh, you know,
Speaker 2: Polyclosser or Richard Ramirez and his killings. But it was
Speaker 2: so unusual that I wanted people to know because like, again,
Speaker 2: this probably this unlocked door in Sales, Kentucky, maybe even
Speaker 2: up and down that very street, and the homes were
Speaker 2: filled with unlocked doors. And I just want people to
Speaker 2: know that you can take something that's so so far
Speaker 2: from almost reality, where someone could get in a car
Speaker 2: in another state, in another city, come to a place
Speaker 2: they'd never been before, come into a home, murder a child,
Speaker 2: and take that child away forever. None of this should
Speaker 2: be none of it should be, but it was, and
Speaker 2: what made it easy was that unlocked door. So when
Speaker 2: I was writing the book, I wanted to choose the
Speaker 2: cases that would have the best representations of it and
Speaker 2: then believe me that there were others, and you know,
Speaker 2: sometimes Bundy he depended on the unlocked door. Most of
Speaker 2: his murders have hurt out. I could have included cases
Speaker 2: of where even Bundy did this, So there's more out there.
Speaker 2: There's thirteen cases, isn't all that's out there. There's a
Speaker 2: lot more than that, But you can only put so
Speaker 2: much in one book. But I wanted to choose those
Speaker 2: cases that would I think best speak to people, whether
Speaker 2: they are on a national level or a local level,
Speaker 2: of the ferocity that can come from these terrible killers
Speaker 2: that enter homes that are unsecured, and what you can
Speaker 2: do about it to help keep them out. But again
Speaker 2: it's no guarantee, but with some killers it is a
Speaker 2: guarantee because there are some that are out there that
Speaker 2: will only enter through an unlocked door. So you've got
Speaker 2: something going for You've got a lot going for you
Speaker 2: if a person becomes security conscious, and it's never too late,
Speaker 2: lock your doors, in your cars, lock your doors in
Speaker 2: your homes, keep your doors locked during the day, because
Speaker 2: I've written about a lot of murders that have occurred
Speaker 2: in the daytime. Okay, so you never know what could happen,
Speaker 2: do everything you can to protect yourself, and then you
Speaker 2: just hope for the best, and you move out through life,
Speaker 2: not in fear, but doing everything that you can do
Speaker 2: to protect yourself and your family.
Speaker 6: It's interesting too when people think because they live in
Speaker 6: a small town, because Nettie and her sister Mabel lived
Speaker 6: in a place of forty thousand people and not in
Speaker 6: a night lighted place, and they had nothing to steal,
Speaker 6: and they were in a wheelchair. One was in a wheelchair.
Speaker 6: And yet then in LA even after the night stalker
Speaker 6: is loose, people are still not locking everything. It's still
Speaker 6: not clear to everyone in Los Angeles despite the fear.
Speaker 6: And that's where we have some more murders after that,
Speaker 6: in terms of at least people not doing enough security
Speaker 6: in spite of that panic and that fear.
Speaker 2: In fact, how about the story of a computer programmer
Speaker 2: who had moved to LA had a girlfriend. I think
Speaker 2: he had called home to his mother and his mother
Speaker 2: was just insisting he he just locked his windows and
Speaker 2: stuff like that, and he just didn't do it, and boom,
Speaker 2: Ramirez got in there shot him in the head. I
Speaker 2: can't remember, Maybeen shot more than once. But you know,
Speaker 2: his life he lived, and his life radically radically changed.
Speaker 2: He could no longer work with computer company. You know,
Speaker 2: the relationship with the girlfriend eventually ended. Uh. He ended
Speaker 2: up living back I think it's Detroit, with his mother,
Speaker 2: and you could tell the man was very better and
Speaker 2: in fact, I quote from an article that he wanted
Speaker 2: to put this gown on some kind of use some
Speaker 2: kind of tool on him to basically torture, you know,
Speaker 2: Ramirez for for what he done. But what ironic is
Speaker 2: his mother was saying that very night, lock your doors.
Speaker 2: This person's running around doing this stuff. And again, yeah,
Speaker 2: the chance was very low that anything would happened. But
Speaker 2: when the ball stopped rolling, it stopped at his house
Speaker 2: and that was just a fluke, and it turned out
Speaker 2: to be very deadly. He lived, but he was never
Speaker 2: the man that he wanted to be after that day.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and it's incredible to you include a case that
Speaker 6: I covered in another with another offer name escapes me
Speaker 6: at this moment, but the case of the first citizens
Speaker 6: to ever capture a serial killer. And it was a
Speaker 6: lucky and they didn't have air conditioning. Was a hot night.
Speaker 6: And the daughter, as you tell tell us a little
Speaker 6: just in closing, tell us of this one.
Speaker 2: Now that case is where he gets into the house.
Speaker 2: It almost reminded me of almost like the same case
Speaker 2: with the with the guy coming down from Indianapolis, the nurse.
Speaker 2: He was able to get into this house, uh and
Speaker 2: trying to kill you know, the daughter. I can't remember
Speaker 2: her name. But a struggle ensues and this is this
Speaker 2: is this is this uh Adam Leroy Lane and he's
Speaker 2: a he's a big, fat guy. And when people read
Speaker 2: the book, they'll see that he must have considered himself
Speaker 2: like a soldier of murder because he would dress up
Speaker 2: in this like ninja garb, and he would put on
Speaker 2: these various knives on his belt, and on at least
Speaker 2: one or two occasions, he even had one of these
Speaker 2: Chinese death stars. What he was going to do with that,
Speaker 2: you know, you know, God only knows. But he got
Speaker 2: into this one house and uh, the uh the husband
Speaker 2: and the father of this girl who was smaller than
Speaker 2: uh than h Lane. But but boy, his adrenaline was pumping,
Speaker 2: and he was a wiry guy. He fought Lane and
Speaker 2: was able to uh contain him, just like the nurse
Speaker 2: was able to be contained by the dad. That's why
Speaker 2: I say the cases are almost similar. But but it
Speaker 2: turned out much better for this other family. And of course,
Speaker 2: you know, the police got there and they were able
Speaker 2: to capture him, so it was it was a very
Speaker 2: very interesting case. This, this Adam Leroy Lane is one
Speaker 2: of the killers that absolutely refused to go on homes
Speaker 2: by breaking in. He had to find an unlocked door
Speaker 2: and he would enter therein but uh, you know, but
Speaker 2: his his uh, his trail of murder came to a
Speaker 2: close in that house. And yes they did. They wrote
Speaker 2: a book on it, and I quote from that book
Speaker 2: and uh, they are the one American family that has
Speaker 2: stopped a real killer and it made it either and
Speaker 2: I guarantee you by doing that, they saved the loves
Speaker 2: of others because had he not been caught that night,
Speaker 2: he would have killed again. Absolutely, And Adam Lee Roy
Speaker 2: Lane was the kind of person that wants he got
Speaker 2: it in his blood. He wasn't he wasn't going to stop,
Speaker 2: which is a normal thing for these types of killers
Speaker 2: once they get the idea and act on it, and
Speaker 2: they consider themselves pretty good with it. They want that
Speaker 2: blood rush, they want that high, they want to commune
Speaker 2: with with the people that they kill, and it becomes
Speaker 2: almost a mystical thing and they're not going to stop.
Speaker 2: And Bundy was like that, So these are not people
Speaker 2: out killing people to commit robberies or whatever and they
Speaker 2: just have to kill people. These are people that are
Speaker 2: out just murder for the joy of murder. And so yes,
Speaker 2: they can be very proud that they stopped this guy
Speaker 2: because they not only saved their own daughter, but they
Speaker 2: saved they say, future victims as well.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, I'm gonna thank you Kevin Sullivan for coming on
Speaker 6: and talking about an unlockdour in Walks Murder. It's been fascinating.
Speaker 6: It's an incredible book. Thank you very much Kevin for
Speaker 6: coming on and discussing it. You have a great evening
Speaker 6: and hope to talk to you again real soon.
Speaker 2: Thanks Dan, Bye bye bye bye right