WEBVTT

1
00:00:30.839 --> 00:00:33.719
<v Speaker 1>Welcome to part two of our series about the zipgun bombers.

2
00:00:33.719 --> 00:00:36.840
<v Speaker 1>So let's jump right in. So the next incident would

3
00:00:36.880 --> 00:00:39.640
<v Speaker 1>take place on June the twenty seventh, nineteen ninety five,

4
00:00:39.840 --> 00:00:42.640
<v Speaker 1>and the victim, like I just said, was only eighteen

5
00:00:42.719 --> 00:00:46.079
<v Speaker 1>years old. Her name was Stephanie Gaffney and she happened

6
00:00:46.119 --> 00:00:49.079
<v Speaker 1>to be living in her grandparents' residence in Queen's and

7
00:00:49.320 --> 00:00:51.399
<v Speaker 1>was eight and a half months pregnant at that time.

8
00:00:52.119 --> 00:00:54.840
<v Speaker 1>So that day, Stephanie was talking on the phone while

9
00:00:54.840 --> 00:00:57.679
<v Speaker 1>looking through her grandparents mail, and she came across a

10
00:00:57.719 --> 00:01:01.600
<v Speaker 1>package which was postmarked from Manhattan and was addressed to

11
00:01:01.880 --> 00:01:05.000
<v Speaker 1>Gilmore or Occupant, which happened to be the surname of

12
00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:08.159
<v Speaker 1>her grandparents. It was an ad for a company which

13
00:01:08.159 --> 00:01:10.840
<v Speaker 1>offered a health insurance plan. And you're gonna love this.

14
00:01:10.879 --> 00:01:14.439
<v Speaker 1>Stephanie just decides to open her grandparents mail without permission.

15
00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:18.040
<v Speaker 1>But she's eighteen years old, I guess she's immature. And

16
00:01:18.239 --> 00:01:21.280
<v Speaker 1>she wound up finding a blue hardcover book inside, and

17
00:01:21.359 --> 00:01:23.840
<v Speaker 1>when she opened it, it had a homemade zip gun

18
00:01:23.879 --> 00:01:27.439
<v Speaker 1>device go off, and shrapnel actually wound up burning Stephanie

19
00:01:27.439 --> 00:01:30.560
<v Speaker 1>on her abdomen, chest and legs and even though she

20
00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:33.760
<v Speaker 1>was not seriously injured, the incident actually caused some distress

21
00:01:33.799 --> 00:01:36.439
<v Speaker 1>with her unborn child, so the doctors had to take

22
00:01:36.439 --> 00:01:40.040
<v Speaker 1>her to the hospital and induce labor earlier than scheduled.

23
00:01:40.040 --> 00:01:43.079
<v Speaker 1>But thankfully, as Stephanie did give birth to a healthy

24
00:01:43.120 --> 00:01:46.200
<v Speaker 1>baby girl who was not harmed by the last She

25
00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:48.400
<v Speaker 1>was pretty lucky because she had been talking on the

26
00:01:48.400 --> 00:01:50.120
<v Speaker 1>phone when she opened up the book and was a

27
00:01:50.120 --> 00:01:52.959
<v Speaker 1>bit distracted and was holding it at a slight angle

28
00:01:52.959 --> 00:01:55.840
<v Speaker 1>away from her, and that likely prevented the bullets from

29
00:01:56.159 --> 00:01:59.159
<v Speaker 1>directly striking her and probably saved the life of herself

30
00:01:59.200 --> 00:01:59.959
<v Speaker 1>and her child.

31
00:02:00.840 --> 00:02:05.000
<v Speaker 2>That is so horrifying to think that as Stephanie was

32
00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:07.959
<v Speaker 2>paying attention, she wasn't talking on the phone, and she

33
00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:11.280
<v Speaker 2>held it at a slightly different angle, that the results

34
00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:13.599
<v Speaker 2>could have been very different for her and for her

35
00:02:13.719 --> 00:02:16.759
<v Speaker 2>unborn child. So it's such a blessing that she was

36
00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:20.319
<v Speaker 2>distracted in that moment. But I can't imagine the type

37
00:02:20.319 --> 00:02:24.719
<v Speaker 2>of trauma that would be inflicted upon Stephanie, not just

38
00:02:24.840 --> 00:02:27.680
<v Speaker 2>because of what she experienced, but the danger that her

39
00:02:27.800 --> 00:02:28.520
<v Speaker 2>child was in.

40
00:02:29.520 --> 00:02:31.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, I don't know what ultimately happened to

41
00:02:31.520 --> 00:02:34.560
<v Speaker 1>Stephanie and her baby girl who would now be thirty.

42
00:02:34.639 --> 00:02:36.840
<v Speaker 1>So that really makes me feel old thinking that this

43
00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:39.800
<v Speaker 1>took place thirty years ago. But hopefully they went out

44
00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:42.360
<v Speaker 1>and have good lives, though I'm thinking Stephanie probably felt

45
00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:45.599
<v Speaker 1>I am never opening my grandparents mail again after this incident.

46
00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:49.319
<v Speaker 1>Once again, they could not find any reason why the

47
00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:52.960
<v Speaker 1>package was sent to this particular place, and unlike the others,

48
00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:55.759
<v Speaker 1>it didn't have a full name. It just said Gilmore

49
00:02:56.000 --> 00:03:00.560
<v Speaker 1>or occupant. What was interesting is that Stephanie's grandfather and

50
00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:03.960
<v Speaker 1>her uncle were both retired police officers, and a couple

51
00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:06.680
<v Speaker 1>of years before that, her uncle had actually broken up

52
00:03:06.719 --> 00:03:09.960
<v Speaker 1>a Dominican drug gang as part of a major drug bust.

53
00:03:10.280 --> 00:03:12.759
<v Speaker 1>But they looked into that angle couldn't find anything from

54
00:03:12.759 --> 00:03:15.439
<v Speaker 1>either man's careers to suggest that the zip gun bombing

55
00:03:15.560 --> 00:03:19.159
<v Speaker 1>had made them specific targets. So once again, it just

56
00:03:19.159 --> 00:03:22.680
<v Speaker 1>seemed like this place was selected completely at random, and

57
00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:25.759
<v Speaker 1>that even if one of her grandparents was the intended target,

58
00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:28.520
<v Speaker 1>Stephanie was just the unlucky person who happened to open

59
00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:31.199
<v Speaker 1>the package and got injured. But it just added more

60
00:03:31.240 --> 00:03:34.319
<v Speaker 1>perplexing questions to the whole thing, because at this point,

61
00:03:34.360 --> 00:03:37.719
<v Speaker 1>the person that police thought was their prime suspect, Louis

62
00:03:37.719 --> 00:03:40.800
<v Speaker 1>Sippola was now in jail, and now these packages are

63
00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:42.759
<v Speaker 1>still being sent out, so they just don't know what

64
00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:43.680
<v Speaker 1>to make of the whole thing.

65
00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:48.879
<v Speaker 2>So after the first incident, we had roughly a decade

66
00:03:48.919 --> 00:03:51.960
<v Speaker 2>cooling off period if we're to assume this is the

67
00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:56.439
<v Speaker 2>same person. And then with these three incidents, how close

68
00:03:56.520 --> 00:03:59.240
<v Speaker 2>in time were they? Will you refresh my memory.

69
00:03:59.159 --> 00:04:00.719
<v Speaker 1>Within a year and a half of each other. The

70
00:04:00.759 --> 00:04:03.000
<v Speaker 1>first one was in October of nineteen ninety three, the

71
00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:05.319
<v Speaker 1>next one is April and nineteen ninety four, and this

72
00:04:05.400 --> 00:04:06.840
<v Speaker 1>is June of nineteen ninety five.

73
00:04:08.280 --> 00:04:11.520
<v Speaker 2>That's really interesting with the timeline. It makes me wonder

74
00:04:11.879 --> 00:04:15.639
<v Speaker 2>is the offender ramping up or like we've spoken about

75
00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:18.879
<v Speaker 2>fairly extensively in Part one, that there's a possibility that

76
00:04:18.920 --> 00:04:22.319
<v Speaker 2>there is a real victim hidden in there and the

77
00:04:22.399 --> 00:04:26.120
<v Speaker 2>other ones are subterfuge and that's what we're witnessing. But

78
00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:28.680
<v Speaker 2>if that is true and that is the case, the

79
00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:33.040
<v Speaker 2>question then becomes, how do you find the other random victims?

80
00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:35.800
<v Speaker 2>Given the time period we spoke about it, it was

81
00:04:35.800 --> 00:04:39.079
<v Speaker 2>the eighties when Jones murder first happened, and now it's

82
00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:41.439
<v Speaker 2>the nineties, so yes, there is the Internet, but it

83
00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:44.120
<v Speaker 2>isn't what it is today, the ability to find people's

84
00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:47.600
<v Speaker 2>addresses and phone numbers. It's kind of rudimentary compared to

85
00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:50.600
<v Speaker 2>how it would be as far as like looking at

86
00:04:50.600 --> 00:04:53.920
<v Speaker 2>people's social media profiles today, I would think that you

87
00:04:53.920 --> 00:04:56.120
<v Speaker 2>would use something like the phone book, because that would

88
00:04:56.120 --> 00:04:58.759
<v Speaker 2>have been the central location for most of the citizens

89
00:04:58.800 --> 00:04:59.560
<v Speaker 2>in your area.

90
00:05:00.800 --> 00:05:03.120
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it is possible that maybe, like the first

91
00:05:03.120 --> 00:05:06.360
<v Speaker 1>few victims, were just chosen at random as a distraction,

92
00:05:06.519 --> 00:05:09.240
<v Speaker 1>and that their actual target was someone buried in the

93
00:05:09.240 --> 00:05:11.680
<v Speaker 1>middle of this. I mean, some of these it appears

94
00:05:11.720 --> 00:05:14.560
<v Speaker 1>that there wasn't much research plan because obviously, since this

95
00:05:14.600 --> 00:05:17.360
<v Speaker 1>one was addressed to Gilmore or occupant and didn't have

96
00:05:17.399 --> 00:05:20.079
<v Speaker 1>a full name, that indicates that they didn't know too

97
00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:22.800
<v Speaker 1>much about this family. And of course we already mentioned

98
00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:25.959
<v Speaker 1>that the previous one was for Richard McGarrell, who hadn't

99
00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:28.839
<v Speaker 1>lived at that address in years, So makes me think

100
00:05:28.839 --> 00:05:31.199
<v Speaker 1>that this person did not have much knowledge of this family.

101
00:05:31.759 --> 00:05:34.680
<v Speaker 1>But they looked into the backgrounds of all these victims

102
00:05:34.680 --> 00:05:37.560
<v Speaker 1>and just couldnot find anything like any known enemies they

103
00:05:37.560 --> 00:05:39.319
<v Speaker 1>had who would have had a motive to do this,

104
00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:43.279
<v Speaker 1>And that's why investigators were left so perplexed. But the

105
00:05:43.360 --> 00:05:46.399
<v Speaker 1>last victim was seventy seven year old retired real estate

106
00:05:46.439 --> 00:05:50.040
<v Speaker 1>agent named Richard Basil who lived in the Bensonhurst neighborhood

107
00:05:50.079 --> 00:05:53.600
<v Speaker 1>in Brooklyn, and on June the twentieth, nineteen ninety six,

108
00:05:53.639 --> 00:05:56.079
<v Speaker 1>he received a package which was addressed to his wife,

109
00:05:56.160 --> 00:05:59.720
<v Speaker 1>Marietta and had a return address from the charity March

110
00:05:59.720 --> 00:06:03.600
<v Speaker 1>of New York, though it was postmarked from elsewhere, and

111
00:06:03.639 --> 00:06:05.680
<v Speaker 1>this time around there wasn't actually a book in there.

112
00:06:05.720 --> 00:06:09.279
<v Speaker 1>There was actually a video cassette inside the package, but

113
00:06:09.319 --> 00:06:12.480
<v Speaker 1>when the cassette's container was opened, he had another booby

114
00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:16.000
<v Speaker 1>trapped zipgun device went off and fired three bullets, but

115
00:06:16.079 --> 00:06:18.639
<v Speaker 1>because Richard opened the box at an odd angle from

116
00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:21.000
<v Speaker 1>a distance, he actually escaped injury as all of the

117
00:06:21.040 --> 00:06:23.839
<v Speaker 1>bullets just wound up shattering the window and none of

118
00:06:23.839 --> 00:06:26.360
<v Speaker 1>them struck him, so thankfully, this was an incident in

119
00:06:26.360 --> 00:06:29.680
<v Speaker 1>which Nolan was hurt. But once again, Richard Basil had

120
00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:32.040
<v Speaker 1>no connection to the other victims. He did not have

121
00:06:32.079 --> 00:06:34.560
<v Speaker 1>any known enemies, anything in his background which would have

122
00:06:34.560 --> 00:06:37.319
<v Speaker 1>made him a target, so it just seemed like another

123
00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:41.639
<v Speaker 1>elderly guy who seemed to be selected completely at random, but.

124
00:06:41.560 --> 00:06:45.120
<v Speaker 2>The one commonality seems to be that everybody's over the

125
00:06:45.160 --> 00:06:46.199
<v Speaker 2>age of fifty four.

126
00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:47.920
<v Speaker 1>Correct pretty much.

127
00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:53.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well except for Stephanie, but she was the unintended victim.

128
00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:57.519
<v Speaker 2>The package was addressed to her grandmother's so obviously the

129
00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:01.480
<v Speaker 2>killer wasn't targeting eighteen year old Stephanie. In my opinion,

130
00:07:01.600 --> 00:07:05.759
<v Speaker 2>something about the age range or the demographic feels really calculated.

131
00:07:06.319 --> 00:07:09.199
<v Speaker 2>It just seems unlikely or improbable that if you were

132
00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:13.000
<v Speaker 2>truly choosing victims at random, that you would have all

133
00:07:13.079 --> 00:07:15.839
<v Speaker 2>of your victims within a similar age demographic.

134
00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:18.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so it makes me wonder where they were getting

135
00:07:18.759 --> 00:07:22.399
<v Speaker 1>that information. And it is also interesting that Joan Kip

136
00:07:22.519 --> 00:07:24.959
<v Speaker 1>was the only person who was killed. I know, it

137
00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:27.480
<v Speaker 1>was just luck that none of these other victims were killed,

138
00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:30.839
<v Speaker 1>but it makes me wonder if the offender just started escalating,

139
00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:33.399
<v Speaker 1>like they got frustrated that they're like poking up all

140
00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:35.879
<v Speaker 1>these booby trapped devices, yet none of them are fatal.

141
00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:38.720
<v Speaker 1>They're only wounding up injured or not being struck by

142
00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:41.480
<v Speaker 1>bullets at all. And that's why they kept sending off

143
00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:44.680
<v Speaker 1>the packages in such a quicker succession, because they wanted

144
00:07:44.680 --> 00:07:47.639
<v Speaker 1>to kill someone else. Yet they couldn't succeed each time,

145
00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:50.000
<v Speaker 1>so that's why they had to keep repeating themselves.

146
00:07:50.519 --> 00:07:52.720
<v Speaker 2>I really would like to know more about the March

147
00:07:52.759 --> 00:07:55.519
<v Speaker 2>of Dime's angle, because if you were involved in a

148
00:07:55.639 --> 00:07:58.000
<v Speaker 2>charity at the time, wouldn't it be pretty easy to

149
00:07:58.000 --> 00:07:59.920
<v Speaker 2>get a hold of people's personal information.

150
00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:05.000
<v Speaker 1>That is possible. It's never been specified if the Basils

151
00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:07.319
<v Speaker 1>were part of the March of Dimes New York. I

152
00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:09.439
<v Speaker 1>know that Richard was the one who opened the package,

153
00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:12.959
<v Speaker 1>but it technically was addressed to his wife, Marietta, So

154
00:08:13.079 --> 00:08:16.399
<v Speaker 1>maybe Marietta donated to them at some point, and maybe

155
00:08:16.439 --> 00:08:19.519
<v Speaker 1>that's the reason Richard wasn't suspicious, thinking, oh, my wife

156
00:08:19.519 --> 00:08:21.879
<v Speaker 1>gets packages from this charity all the time, so I'm

157
00:08:21.879 --> 00:08:25.199
<v Speaker 1>going to open it without a second thought. So after this,

158
00:08:25.560 --> 00:08:28.319
<v Speaker 1>the case was featured on Unsolved Mysteries, and that's how

159
00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:31.360
<v Speaker 1>I originally heard about it. And after that there were

160
00:08:31.399 --> 00:08:34.759
<v Speaker 1>no more incidents involving these suspicious packages. So maybe the

161
00:08:34.759 --> 00:08:38.279
<v Speaker 1>fact that it was now getting exposure on national television

162
00:08:38.360 --> 00:08:42.000
<v Speaker 1>finally scared the perpetrator off and finally convinced them to stop.

163
00:08:42.519 --> 00:08:44.480
<v Speaker 1>But you may have noticed that there are no actual

164
00:08:44.600 --> 00:08:47.840
<v Speaker 1>bombs connected to this. But I think The reason that

165
00:08:47.879 --> 00:08:50.919
<v Speaker 1>they wanted to call him the zip gun bomber was

166
00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:53.679
<v Speaker 1>because this was the era where the Unibomber was all

167
00:08:53.679 --> 00:08:56.039
<v Speaker 1>over the news when he was finally identified as Ted

168
00:08:56.159 --> 00:08:59.919
<v Speaker 1>Kaczinski and arrested. So of course this was all sensation

169
00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:02.440
<v Speaker 1>thinking if we use the word bomber, this is going

170
00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:04.240
<v Speaker 1>to get a lot more press, and it's going to

171
00:09:04.279 --> 00:09:07.120
<v Speaker 1>get a lot more attention. So that's why they decided

172
00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:09.679
<v Speaker 1>to give him this nickname, even though he technically only

173
00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:13.000
<v Speaker 1>used zip guns and never actually used any bombs. But

174
00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:15.960
<v Speaker 1>this was the only serial mail bombing case who have

175
00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:18.120
<v Speaker 1>ever occurred in the history of New York City, and

176
00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:21.279
<v Speaker 1>it is still unprecedented, as I don't think there have

177
00:09:21.279 --> 00:09:23.799
<v Speaker 1>been any other documented cases in the history of the

178
00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:27.360
<v Speaker 1>country where people have received packages with a booby trapped

179
00:09:27.399 --> 00:09:29.559
<v Speaker 1>zipgun that fires off bullets.

180
00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:32.879
<v Speaker 2>I've never heard of anything similar to this, But in

181
00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:35.639
<v Speaker 2>all fairness, I was unfamiliar with this case, so I

182
00:09:35.720 --> 00:09:38.559
<v Speaker 2>definitely don't know it all. I find it interesting that

183
00:09:38.600 --> 00:09:41.080
<v Speaker 2>they would call him a bomber. I guess it comes

184
00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:44.559
<v Speaker 2>down to your trying to sell papers. You want eyeballs

185
00:09:44.600 --> 00:09:47.320
<v Speaker 2>on the story and what is more compelling, Like you

186
00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:50.440
<v Speaker 2>said in the era of Ted Kaczinski than calling him

187
00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:52.840
<v Speaker 2>the zipgun bomber. It does have a bit of a

188
00:09:52.919 --> 00:09:56.399
<v Speaker 2>ring to it rather than like the zipgun package guy.

189
00:09:57.720 --> 00:09:59.879
<v Speaker 2>It reminds me a little bit of the stage ha

190
00:10:00.279 --> 00:10:03.360
<v Speaker 2>panic cases from the eighties, where it was like one

191
00:10:03.399 --> 00:10:06.039
<v Speaker 2>seemed to build on the next, and it just created

192
00:10:06.039 --> 00:10:09.320
<v Speaker 2>this kind of frenzy that sold a ton of papers

193
00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:11.200
<v Speaker 2>and had a lot of eyeballs on a lot of

194
00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:12.240
<v Speaker 2>news segments.

195
00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:15.919
<v Speaker 1>Pretty much. Yeah, and now I want to talk about

196
00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:19.559
<v Speaker 1>like how the unibomber might have influenced this offender and

197
00:10:19.639 --> 00:10:22.080
<v Speaker 1>maybe paused him to come out of the spotlight again

198
00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:24.679
<v Speaker 1>in the nineteen nineties, because that's when the unibomber was

199
00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:27.360
<v Speaker 1>getting all this attention. I don't know if this is

200
00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:31.159
<v Speaker 1>just a coincidence, but there was actually a unibomber explosion

201
00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:34.360
<v Speaker 1>on May the fifth, nineteen eighty two, two days before

202
00:10:34.440 --> 00:10:38.600
<v Speaker 1>Joan Kip received her package. It took place in Nashville, Tennessee,

203
00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:42.480
<v Speaker 1>at Vanderbilt University, where a secretary named Janet Smith was

204
00:10:42.519 --> 00:10:45.360
<v Speaker 1>seriously injured by a mail bomb when she opened a

205
00:10:45.399 --> 00:10:48.600
<v Speaker 1>package which been addressed to a computer science professor at

206
00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:51.519
<v Speaker 1>the university. And of course the murder of Joan Kip

207
00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:54.120
<v Speaker 1>took place two days later, and I still wonder could

208
00:10:54.200 --> 00:10:56.960
<v Speaker 1>someone have read about this story in the newspaper and

209
00:10:57.000 --> 00:10:59.960
<v Speaker 1>it gave them the inspiration to send this package to Joe.

210
00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:03.519
<v Speaker 1>But even though the Unibomber had been wanted since the

211
00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:06.399
<v Speaker 1>late nineteen seventies, he actually went through a six year

212
00:11:06.519 --> 00:11:09.960
<v Speaker 1>hiatus in which there were no bombing incidents until there

213
00:11:09.960 --> 00:11:12.360
<v Speaker 1>were two separate mail bomb attacks which took place on

214
00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:15.399
<v Speaker 1>opposite sides of the country on June the twenty second

215
00:11:15.759 --> 00:11:18.440
<v Speaker 1>and June the twenty fourth and of nineteen ninety three.

216
00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:21.559
<v Speaker 1>And then lo and behold, after the Unibomber is thrust

217
00:11:21.639 --> 00:11:24.399
<v Speaker 1>back into the spotlight in the media, the zipgun Bomber

218
00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:27.559
<v Speaker 1>makes his big return and sends a package to Anthony

219
00:11:27.639 --> 00:11:31.240
<v Speaker 1>Lenza less than four months later in October. So it

220
00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:34.600
<v Speaker 1>makes me wonder if the zipgun Bomber, after this decade

221
00:11:34.600 --> 00:11:38.080
<v Speaker 1>long hiatus, read about the Unibomber getting this attention and

222
00:11:38.120 --> 00:11:40.200
<v Speaker 1>then decided, I'm going to go into action again, and

223
00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:43.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to send my own special device to people

224
00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:46.000
<v Speaker 1>and hopefully maybe get some of the Unibomber's headlines.

225
00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:49.639
<v Speaker 2>If that's true, and it is, the same killer, then

226
00:11:49.679 --> 00:11:52.840
<v Speaker 2>it definitely speaks to somebody who really cares what the

227
00:11:52.879 --> 00:11:57.080
<v Speaker 2>public things and wants to have this fearsome reputation a

228
00:11:57.200 --> 00:12:00.559
<v Speaker 2>la BTK. I think if we look even at the

229
00:12:00.639 --> 00:12:04.519
<v Speaker 2>method that the zipgun bomber chose, that speaks to somebody

230
00:12:04.519 --> 00:12:08.840
<v Speaker 2>who wants notoriety. If you wanted something quiet, you could

231
00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:11.720
<v Speaker 2>just poison somebody. You could do it in a way

232
00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:16.759
<v Speaker 2>that wouldn't call such attention with the press. But when

233
00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:20.440
<v Speaker 2>you're orchestrating attacks like these, you're doing multiple attacks, and

234
00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:25.840
<v Speaker 2>they're so intricate, so calculated, seemingly random, and you're using

235
00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:29.600
<v Speaker 2>this carefully constructed zip gun device, you're putting it in

236
00:12:29.679 --> 00:12:33.120
<v Speaker 2>like this blue velvet coin box in some cases in

237
00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:37.279
<v Speaker 2>the cooking in the cookbook for Joan, it just speaks

238
00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:40.879
<v Speaker 2>to somebody who really is thinking, how will my crimes

239
00:12:40.919 --> 00:12:45.000
<v Speaker 2>be perceived? And it also speaks to somebody who wants

240
00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:46.639
<v Speaker 2>their crimes to be tied together.

241
00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:50.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that would totally make sense to me that he

242
00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:52.679
<v Speaker 1>was seeing all this attention that the unibomber was getting,

243
00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:55.879
<v Speaker 1>and then even though the zip gun bomber had gotten

244
00:12:55.879 --> 00:12:57.840
<v Speaker 1>away with it for over a decade. I just think

245
00:12:57.879 --> 00:13:00.559
<v Speaker 1>that like the BTK. They just couldn't stand the thought

246
00:13:00.559 --> 00:13:03.159
<v Speaker 1>of not getting any more attention and not being in

247
00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:05.679
<v Speaker 1>the papers, so they had to do something in order

248
00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:09.120
<v Speaker 1>to get themselves back into the spotlight again. And it's

249
00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:11.840
<v Speaker 1>interesting how the Unibomber, one of his later bombs, took

250
00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:14.639
<v Speaker 1>place on April the twenty fourth, nineteen ninety five, and

251
00:13:14.679 --> 00:13:17.559
<v Speaker 1>then the Zip gun bomber's attack on Stephanie Gaffney took

252
00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:20.840
<v Speaker 1>place just two months later on June the twenty seventh.

253
00:13:21.240 --> 00:13:25.080
<v Speaker 1>Ted Kaczinski was arrested in April of nineteen ninety six,

254
00:13:25.240 --> 00:13:29.200
<v Speaker 1>and then the package sent off to Richard Basil took

255
00:13:29.240 --> 00:13:32.200
<v Speaker 1>place in June of nineteen ninety six, so only two

256
00:13:32.200 --> 00:13:36.600
<v Speaker 1>months later. So maybe they're thinking of themselves. Kazinski's been caught,

257
00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:39.240
<v Speaker 1>he's in custody. Maybe I'll be the new big boy now,

258
00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:43.720
<v Speaker 1>the new unidentified bomber getting all the attention. But ironically enough,

259
00:13:43.759 --> 00:13:46.360
<v Speaker 1>after the Richard Basil thing, after he finally got the

260
00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:49.960
<v Speaker 1>nickname Zip gun Bomber, he pretty much faded from the spotlight.

261
00:13:50.039 --> 00:13:52.120
<v Speaker 1>So it makes you wonder did something happen to him,

262
00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:54.320
<v Speaker 1>Did he die or go to prison for another crime,

263
00:13:54.759 --> 00:13:56.519
<v Speaker 1>or did he just get paranoid that he was going

264
00:13:56.600 --> 00:13:58.600
<v Speaker 1>to get caught and then bring everything to a stop.

265
00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:02.159
<v Speaker 1>So it would not be until May of two thousand

266
00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:05.440
<v Speaker 1>and two, around the twenty year anniversary of Joan Kipp's death,

267
00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:08.559
<v Speaker 1>that the New York Daily News published an article in

268
00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:11.200
<v Speaker 1>which they reported that two men from Brooklyn who had

269
00:14:11.240 --> 00:14:14.879
<v Speaker 1>once been roommates were being looked at as potential suspects.

270
00:14:15.320 --> 00:14:17.519
<v Speaker 1>The name of one of these men has never been

271
00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:20.200
<v Speaker 1>released publicly. He has only been described as an ex

272
00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:23.559
<v Speaker 1>con and a former roommate of the person I'm going

273
00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:27.000
<v Speaker 1>to talk about now. But the other man was identified

274
00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:30.080
<v Speaker 1>as a forty eight year old Stephen Wavra who had

275
00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:34.559
<v Speaker 1>a history of strange criminal behavior during the early nineteen seventies.

276
00:14:34.600 --> 00:14:37.200
<v Speaker 1>Warbra had served in the Navy, but was diagnosed as

277
00:14:37.240 --> 00:14:40.759
<v Speaker 1>suffering from paranoid schizophrenica, and he had history of run

278
00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:43.759
<v Speaker 1>ins with the law for such offenses as making bomb

279
00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:47.399
<v Speaker 1>threats against postal facilities, and there were even two separate

280
00:14:47.399 --> 00:14:50.960
<v Speaker 1>occasions where Warbra was caught carrying hollowed out books even

281
00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:53.840
<v Speaker 1>though they did not contain any guns or bombs or anything.

282
00:14:54.440 --> 00:14:57.000
<v Speaker 1>But he just had a history of very irrational behavior.

283
00:14:57.039 --> 00:14:59.799
<v Speaker 1>There was one incident where he got into an altercation

284
00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:04.039
<v Speaker 1>outside Fort Hamilton in Brooklyn, where just one month earlier

285
00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:06.840
<v Speaker 1>he had been released from prison on robbery charges, when

286
00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:09.759
<v Speaker 1>he suddenly decided to throw black pepper into the eyes

287
00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:12.440
<v Speaker 1>of a female MP who was guarding the main gate

288
00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:15.799
<v Speaker 1>at Fort Hamilton, an attacker of the crowbar, and when

289
00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:19.440
<v Speaker 1>another MP attempted to intervene, Wabrah attacked him as well,

290
00:15:19.480 --> 00:15:21.559
<v Speaker 1>and he had to be chased down and restrained by

291
00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:24.799
<v Speaker 1>three soldiers before he was arrested. And when asked why

292
00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:27.240
<v Speaker 1>he did this, Wabra said that he wanted to steal

293
00:15:27.279 --> 00:15:30.240
<v Speaker 1>the forty five caliber handguns that the MPs were carrying

294
00:15:30.679 --> 00:15:33.279
<v Speaker 1>because he was only carrying a twenty two caliber weapon

295
00:15:33.320 --> 00:15:35.399
<v Speaker 1>and he didn't feel it was intimidated enough, so he

296
00:15:35.480 --> 00:15:37.919
<v Speaker 1>had to steal some bigger guns and that was his

297
00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:39.240
<v Speaker 1>loan motive for this crime.

298
00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:44.000
<v Speaker 2>This is just a really bizarre motive. He sounds like

299
00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:47.600
<v Speaker 2>a pretty odd guy, but it really is the hollowed

300
00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:50.440
<v Speaker 2>out books. For me, I don't know how common it

301
00:15:50.480 --> 00:15:53.480
<v Speaker 2>would be for somebody to be carrying around hollowed out books.

302
00:15:53.559 --> 00:15:55.399
<v Speaker 2>Is this like a spy thing that he read in

303
00:15:55.399 --> 00:15:59.080
<v Speaker 2>the spy magazine and he just started doing it or

304
00:15:59.399 --> 00:16:02.799
<v Speaker 2>is this something that is highly specific to him?

305
00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:05.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean it's just such a specific thing that

306
00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:09.120
<v Speaker 1>you have to wonder could he have had expertise in

307
00:16:09.240 --> 00:16:11.960
<v Speaker 1>making these type of booby traps. Yeah. The first time

308
00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:13.559
<v Speaker 1>he was caught with the hollowed out book was in

309
00:16:13.639 --> 00:16:17.320
<v Speaker 1>nineteen eighty three when police visited Wabra and his roommate

310
00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:20.720
<v Speaker 1>at their apartment to investigate an unrelated case, and they

311
00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:23.039
<v Speaker 1>noticed that he had a hollowed out book and some

312
00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:27.159
<v Speaker 1>bomb making equipment on the kitchen table, and Wabra admitted

313
00:16:27.159 --> 00:16:29.399
<v Speaker 1>that he was planning to use it on a military base,

314
00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:32.200
<v Speaker 1>but he denied ever having sent a device through the mail.

315
00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:34.600
<v Speaker 1>And of course he would go to jail for a

316
00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:38.080
<v Speaker 1>few years for having this illegal equipment. Now, obviously they

317
00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:40.879
<v Speaker 1>should have raised some red flags because Wabra also lived

318
00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:43.360
<v Speaker 1>in New York. We had just had an incident involving

319
00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:45.679
<v Speaker 1>a hallowed out book used to kill a woman. But

320
00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:48.799
<v Speaker 1>by nineteen eighty three they had already charged Craig Kip

321
00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:51.399
<v Speaker 1>and they had still not decided whether or not they

322
00:16:51.399 --> 00:16:53.519
<v Speaker 1>were going to take him to trial. So I think

323
00:16:53.559 --> 00:16:55.799
<v Speaker 1>in the police's eyes they were thinking that, oh, well,

324
00:16:55.840 --> 00:16:58.279
<v Speaker 1>we already got our mand for Joan Kipp's murder, so

325
00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:01.360
<v Speaker 1>obviously this hollow out book must be a coincidence. So

326
00:17:01.480 --> 00:17:04.440
<v Speaker 1>I think that means that Wabra was not properly investigated

327
00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:06.839
<v Speaker 1>at the time because they thought they had already found

328
00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:07.799
<v Speaker 1>their suspect.

329
00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:11.880
<v Speaker 2>There's a really strange dichotomy here because on one hand,

330
00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:15.839
<v Speaker 2>Wabra sounds like such a great suspect, but when we

331
00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:20.160
<v Speaker 2>look at our suspect, we think somebody who's like cold, calculated, methodical,

332
00:17:20.599 --> 00:17:23.920
<v Speaker 2>but he seems really hot headed. But then when you

333
00:17:23.960 --> 00:17:26.440
<v Speaker 2>go back to the books being hollowed out, that is

334
00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:29.519
<v Speaker 2>so specific and almost impossible to ignore.

335
00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:33.319
<v Speaker 1>It is. Yes, and as we're going to find out,

336
00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:37.480
<v Speaker 1>there actually is a personal connection between Wabra and Joan Kip,

337
00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:40.839
<v Speaker 1>even though it's a very very loose one. And it

338
00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:44.480
<v Speaker 1>turned out that Joan had actually been Wabra's guidance counselor

339
00:17:44.519 --> 00:17:47.839
<v Speaker 1>when he was attending junior high school. But it's kind

340
00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:49.799
<v Speaker 1>of a weak connection because this would have been something

341
00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:52.880
<v Speaker 1>like fifteen to twenty years before the Zip gone bombing,

342
00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:54.960
<v Speaker 1>so I'm not even sure he would have remembered her

343
00:17:55.400 --> 00:17:57.319
<v Speaker 1>or would have had a motive to select her to

344
00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:00.000
<v Speaker 1>harm her, and the reason he wasn't looked at it

345
00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:02.960
<v Speaker 1>a serious suspect at first is because he was actually

346
00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:05.960
<v Speaker 1>in jail for another crime at the time the hollowed

347
00:18:05.960 --> 00:18:09.119
<v Speaker 1>out book was sent to Joan Kip's address. But like

348
00:18:09.160 --> 00:18:11.960
<v Speaker 1>I mentioned earlier, the police said that they suspected two

349
00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:15.440
<v Speaker 1>people may have been involved, and that possibly he was

350
00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:18.640
<v Speaker 1>getting his roommate to mail mysterious packages on his behalf

351
00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:21.400
<v Speaker 1>while he was incarcerated. So even though we don't have

352
00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:24.559
<v Speaker 1>many details about the roommate, it's possible that if Wabra

353
00:18:24.839 --> 00:18:27.640
<v Speaker 1>assembled the bomb and then went to jail, the roommate

354
00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:29.920
<v Speaker 1>still could have mailed it to Joan on his behalf.

355
00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:35.079
<v Speaker 2>That's really interesting and it makes me wonder if Joan

356
00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:39.400
<v Speaker 2>Kip was indeed an intended victim, or if there is

357
00:18:39.640 --> 00:18:44.039
<v Speaker 2>a more cold, methodical person who's partnered with Wavra, and

358
00:18:44.119 --> 00:18:46.920
<v Speaker 2>maybe they had the foresight not to want to be

359
00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:50.559
<v Speaker 2>tied to any of these crimes, and so they asked

360
00:18:50.599 --> 00:18:53.920
<v Speaker 2>Wavra to pick somebody at random, and maybe he thought, oh,

361
00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:56.920
<v Speaker 2>this person, Joan Kip, she's far enough removed from me,

362
00:18:57.039 --> 00:19:01.079
<v Speaker 2>nobody's going to tie us together, rather than just picking

363
00:19:01.160 --> 00:19:05.680
<v Speaker 2>a truly random victim. And because we see similar devices.

364
00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:09.079
<v Speaker 2>We know that these crimes are connected to Joan Kipps,

365
00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:12.319
<v Speaker 2>but it could be a different individual doing it because

366
00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:15.000
<v Speaker 2>we know that it can't be Wavra. He's locked up,

367
00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:18.039
<v Speaker 2>and the blue velvet box is different than the hollowed

368
00:19:18.039 --> 00:19:21.960
<v Speaker 2>out book, which maybe was Wavra's signature pretty much.

369
00:19:22.039 --> 00:19:24.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, like the first one with Joan Kip was a cookbook,

370
00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:26.799
<v Speaker 1>but the ones that were sent off to Anthony Lenza

371
00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:29.240
<v Speaker 1>and Richard McGarrell, those were in the medallion boxes, the

372
00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:32.359
<v Speaker 1>blue velvet boxes, which were so specific that you have

373
00:19:32.440 --> 00:19:35.640
<v Speaker 1>to think they were done by the same person. So

374
00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:38.200
<v Speaker 1>I do think that it's a pretty weak motive to

375
00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:41.279
<v Speaker 1>think that Wabra may have decided to target Joan Kipp

376
00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:44.119
<v Speaker 1>because she had been his guidance counselor because that was

377
00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:46.799
<v Speaker 1>so many years earlier. But it is kind of more

378
00:19:46.839 --> 00:19:49.640
<v Speaker 1>interesting when you think that Joan made all those cryptoc

379
00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:52.359
<v Speaker 1>remarks where she said, quote there will be others, and

380
00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:55.160
<v Speaker 1>she wanted people to notify the school district and all

381
00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:58.559
<v Speaker 1>the other educators to warn them about what was happening,

382
00:19:58.599 --> 00:20:01.759
<v Speaker 1>which gave off the oppression she have had some suspicions

383
00:20:01.799 --> 00:20:05.200
<v Speaker 1>about someone that deliberately targeted her and sent her the

384
00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:08.079
<v Speaker 1>zip gun bomb. So it makes me wonder if she

385
00:20:08.119 --> 00:20:11.039
<v Speaker 1>had gotten an opportunity to be questioned about Stephen Wabra,

386
00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:13.279
<v Speaker 1>I'd be curious to see if she would have said anything,

387
00:20:13.359 --> 00:20:16.880
<v Speaker 1>like maybe she remembered something from her background that maybe

388
00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:19.200
<v Speaker 1>he had a history of using hauled out books or

389
00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:21.680
<v Speaker 1>building bombs or something when he was in junior high

390
00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:24.480
<v Speaker 1>school and she thought he was disturbing kid, or maybe

391
00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:27.240
<v Speaker 1>he had resurfaced recently to make threats against her or something,

392
00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:29.400
<v Speaker 1>and that's why she suspected that he could have been

393
00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:31.480
<v Speaker 1>the one who sent it out. It does seem like

394
00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:34.359
<v Speaker 1>a weak connection, but I still wonder if Joan had

395
00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:36.319
<v Speaker 1>her own ideas about Stephen Wabra.

396
00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:40.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it definitely does seem like a weak connection, But

397
00:20:40.359 --> 00:20:43.319
<v Speaker 2>I guess if you look at it one way, you

398
00:20:43.359 --> 00:20:45.359
<v Speaker 2>could say that things had happened to us during our

399
00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:50.680
<v Speaker 2>formative years childhood, high school are deeply impactful, and perhaps

400
00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:53.680
<v Speaker 2>or maybe he perceived the way that she treated him

401
00:20:54.039 --> 00:20:56.799
<v Speaker 2>to be that like he was less than Maybe they

402
00:20:56.839 --> 00:21:00.359
<v Speaker 2>had a positive interaction and rather than come up with

403
00:21:00.359 --> 00:21:05.119
<v Speaker 2>a truly random victim, Wavra, when potentially asked by his

404
00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:07.720
<v Speaker 2>partner to come up with somebody he came up with

405
00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:11.160
<v Speaker 2>Joan Kip and just assumed that investigators would never catch them,

406
00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:14.359
<v Speaker 2>so they would never catch the connection because it was

407
00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:17.119
<v Speaker 2>so many years in the past that there was any

408
00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:19.160
<v Speaker 2>connection that would tie the two of them together.

409
00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:23.359
<v Speaker 1>We've already seen him do irrational things like throwing pepper

410
00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:25.359
<v Speaker 1>in like the eyes of an MP because they just

411
00:21:25.400 --> 00:21:27.920
<v Speaker 1>wanted to steal her gun. So it could have been

412
00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:30.119
<v Speaker 1>just this long standing grudge that he hung on to

413
00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:33.200
<v Speaker 1>for over fifteen years or something. And even if Joan

414
00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:35.720
<v Speaker 1>didn't even remember him, he still could have remembered her

415
00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:39.119
<v Speaker 1>and then just decided to target her at random. And

416
00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:42.119
<v Speaker 1>no connections have been found between Wavra or any the

417
00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:44.519
<v Speaker 1>other victims from the nineties, so that could have just

418
00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:46.960
<v Speaker 1>been his mo where he'll just pick people at random

419
00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:50.039
<v Speaker 1>and then just decide to mail them packages. Wavra was

420
00:21:50.119 --> 00:21:52.799
<v Speaker 1>out of prison for the first three incidents, which took

421
00:21:52.839 --> 00:21:55.839
<v Speaker 1>place during the nineties, but in April of nineteen ninety six,

422
00:21:56.319 --> 00:21:59.640
<v Speaker 1>he was arrested inside the Brooklyn Public Library for possessing

423
00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:03.240
<v Speaker 1>a hull out book containing exact oblades, and he also

424
00:22:03.319 --> 00:22:06.559
<v Speaker 1>happened to be carrying twenty two caliber rifle shells and

425
00:22:06.680 --> 00:22:10.440
<v Speaker 1>as a convicted Fellon, Warbar was forbidden from possessing ammunitions

426
00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:13.160
<v Speaker 1>such as that, so he wound up receiving a ninety

427
00:22:13.160 --> 00:22:17.039
<v Speaker 1>month since at the Beaumont Federal Prison Complex in Texas.

428
00:22:17.559 --> 00:22:20.119
<v Speaker 1>The Zipgon bomb that was sent to Richard Basil a

429
00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:22.799
<v Speaker 1>couple months later, Warbar would have been in prison for that,

430
00:22:23.319 --> 00:22:26.279
<v Speaker 1>But once again, he still has the connection with his roommate.

431
00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:28.839
<v Speaker 1>I do not believe they were still roommates in nineteen

432
00:22:28.920 --> 00:22:31.240
<v Speaker 1>ninety six, but they were still friends. They were still

433
00:22:31.240 --> 00:22:34.279
<v Speaker 1>in touch with each other. So theoretically, if Warbar was

434
00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:37.039
<v Speaker 1>responsible for the other bombs, he could have had his

435
00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:40.160
<v Speaker 1>roommate mail the one to Richard Basil on his behalf

436
00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:41.839
<v Speaker 1>after he was already sent to prison.

437
00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:47.039
<v Speaker 2>Definitely, anything is possible, especially when you have multiple offenders

438
00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:48.799
<v Speaker 2>that are connected to the same prime.

439
00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:51.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's kind of why I wish we had more

440
00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:54.079
<v Speaker 1>information on the roommate to know if he had a

441
00:22:54.160 --> 00:22:57.119
<v Speaker 1>history of making devices like that. I'm guessing that the

442
00:22:57.160 --> 00:23:00.960
<v Speaker 1>reason that they maybe haven't named him PUBB is because

443
00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:03.440
<v Speaker 1>he has never been convicted of any of these serious

444
00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:06.720
<v Speaker 1>crimes involving weapons, even though he apparently does have a

445
00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:09.400
<v Speaker 1>criminal history, so they just don't feel comfortable enough to

446
00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:12.200
<v Speaker 1>say his name publicly, whereas Wabra has been in and

447
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:14.640
<v Speaker 1>out at prison and has a history of erratic behavior,

448
00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:17.039
<v Speaker 1>they were a lot more comfortable using his name in

449
00:23:17.079 --> 00:23:17.799
<v Speaker 1>the newspapers.

450
00:23:19.079 --> 00:23:20.880
<v Speaker 2>And I think that makes a lot of sense in

451
00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:25.000
<v Speaker 2>most cases, where you have somebody and if you tie

452
00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:27.599
<v Speaker 2>them to this crime without a lot of evidence to

453
00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:32.279
<v Speaker 2>substantiate it, it could greatly prejudice things like their future

454
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:36.799
<v Speaker 2>job opportunities, their future partners. So unless there is a

455
00:23:36.839 --> 00:23:39.400
<v Speaker 2>lot of evidence and you're going to bring somebody to trial,

456
00:23:39.880 --> 00:23:42.279
<v Speaker 2>I don't really think it's the best thing to be

457
00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:45.759
<v Speaker 2>releasing their names and then being like, oh sorry, just kidding,

458
00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:48.400
<v Speaker 2>like you aren't actually the guilty party, because a lot

459
00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:51.440
<v Speaker 2>of people will have formed their opinions about that person already,

460
00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:55.279
<v Speaker 2>and I'm not sure specifically hear how much evidence they

461
00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:58.359
<v Speaker 2>did or they didn't have about the roommate. But of

462
00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:00.680
<v Speaker 2>course he's going to look like a compelling suspect. He

463
00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:04.279
<v Speaker 2>lives with Wavra, he's got some criminality in his background,

464
00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:07.240
<v Speaker 2>but I don't know how close it's tied to what

465
00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:10.559
<v Speaker 2>happened here, or how good of a suspect he truly was.

466
00:24:11.319 --> 00:24:15.079
<v Speaker 2>For me personally, given what we know thus far about

467
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:17.480
<v Speaker 2>Wavra and the fact that he had a roommate, it

468
00:24:17.559 --> 00:24:21.119
<v Speaker 2>seems likely to me or probable that there would be

469
00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:24.680
<v Speaker 2>two people involved here, just because we have Wabra locked

470
00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:27.680
<v Speaker 2>up and it's not possible that he could have committed

471
00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:31.119
<v Speaker 2>the other three attacks. So I think that there are

472
00:24:31.160 --> 00:24:34.359
<v Speaker 2>definitely two people involved. And so I can see why

473
00:24:34.440 --> 00:24:37.279
<v Speaker 2>investigators were looking very closely at the roommate.

474
00:24:38.359 --> 00:24:40.559
<v Speaker 1>It would yeah, and it would explain like how these

475
00:24:40.599 --> 00:24:43.839
<v Speaker 1>packages were still being sent out when Wabar was in prison.

476
00:24:44.200 --> 00:24:47.160
<v Speaker 1>In that aforementioned New York Daily News article from two

477
00:24:47.160 --> 00:24:49.720
<v Speaker 1>thousand and two, it contained an interview with a retired

478
00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:53.240
<v Speaker 1>detective who worked on the case named John Tarangello, and

479
00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:55.759
<v Speaker 1>he made this very weird statement. I'm not sure what

480
00:24:55.880 --> 00:24:58.319
<v Speaker 1>to make of it. Quote. It always came back to

481
00:24:58.359 --> 00:25:01.319
<v Speaker 1>the two of them consistently. There was always a common

482
00:25:01.319 --> 00:25:04.519
<v Speaker 1>denominator between them and the victims, whether it was the pharmacy,

483
00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:07.599
<v Speaker 1>the neighborhood, the hollowed out cookbook. There was a record

484
00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:10.000
<v Speaker 1>of Wavra's pal and the computer of each of the

485
00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:13.880
<v Speaker 1>victims local pharmacies. We can never figure it out end quote.

486
00:25:14.279 --> 00:25:16.519
<v Speaker 1>So I really wish I got more context on the

487
00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:19.359
<v Speaker 1>pharmacies thing, because does this mean that this roommate had

488
00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:22.359
<v Speaker 1>his name and like all these different pharmacies that all

489
00:25:22.440 --> 00:25:25.519
<v Speaker 1>the victims went to. Because if so, that's a hell

490
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:28.359
<v Speaker 1>of a coincidence, and it makes me wonder, like why

491
00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:31.400
<v Speaker 1>a person would need to go to that many different pharmacies.

492
00:25:31.839 --> 00:25:34.680
<v Speaker 1>And it also makes me wonder, is this where they

493
00:25:34.720 --> 00:25:37.680
<v Speaker 1>were obtaining all the information about the victims? Did they

494
00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:40.240
<v Speaker 1>just maybe follow them to a pharmacy, maybe get an

495
00:25:40.279 --> 00:25:43.279
<v Speaker 1>address off a prescription on a shelf in the background,

496
00:25:43.319 --> 00:25:46.039
<v Speaker 1>and then select them at random. Really makes me wonder,

497
00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:47.839
<v Speaker 1>like what the context of this quote is.

498
00:25:49.160 --> 00:25:52.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this is really bizarre. Anytime I hear somebody going

499
00:25:52.400 --> 00:25:55.720
<v Speaker 2>to multiple pharmacies, I always think of people doctor shopping

500
00:25:55.839 --> 00:25:59.440
<v Speaker 2>for drugs. It also makes you question what type of

501
00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:03.200
<v Speaker 2>security measures were there in place in order to protect

502
00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:06.559
<v Speaker 2>the patient's information or was it just really easy to

503
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:10.440
<v Speaker 2>access back then because it was really during the advent

504
00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:14.200
<v Speaker 2>of like computers and technology, so maybe things were just

505
00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:15.400
<v Speaker 2>kept in file folders.

506
00:26:16.119 --> 00:26:18.839
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so that's maybe what he was doing, But I

507
00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:21.400
<v Speaker 1>think about some of the outdated information. The fact that

508
00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:24.839
<v Speaker 1>one of the packages was addressed to Richard McGarrell, who

509
00:26:24.920 --> 00:26:27.240
<v Speaker 1>was no longer hadn't lived there for fifteen years. It

510
00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:30.039
<v Speaker 1>makes me wonder if maybe Wavru and his roommate like

511
00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:33.519
<v Speaker 1>snuck into a pharmacy and saw some database which had

512
00:26:33.559 --> 00:26:36.759
<v Speaker 1>an outdated address for Richard McGarrell that was several years old,

513
00:26:36.759 --> 00:26:38.599
<v Speaker 1>and then just said, oh, this person sounds like an

514
00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:41.920
<v Speaker 1>interesting target and sent a package there and not realizing

515
00:26:41.960 --> 00:26:45.240
<v Speaker 1>that Richard was no longer at that address, or it

516
00:26:45.319 --> 00:26:48.839
<v Speaker 1>could explain why when the package was sent to Stephanie Gaffney,

517
00:26:49.119 --> 00:26:52.440
<v Speaker 1>the front of the package just simply said Gilmore or occupant.

518
00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:55.160
<v Speaker 1>Like maybe they saw the name Gilmore and an address

519
00:26:55.240 --> 00:26:58.240
<v Speaker 1>on like a pharmacy prescription or something like that, and

520
00:26:58.279 --> 00:26:59.960
<v Speaker 1>then just picked that even though they did not know

521
00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:02.640
<v Speaker 1>the name of the person who lived there. So it

522
00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:04.720
<v Speaker 1>sounds like they have a little pieces of the puzzle

523
00:27:04.720 --> 00:27:06.839
<v Speaker 1>together involving Wabber in the room make but they just

524
00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:10.400
<v Speaker 1>can't put everything together or figure out enough evidence in

525
00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:12.559
<v Speaker 1>order to make an arrest for either of them.

526
00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:16.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and like we just talked about the likelihood of

527
00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:19.279
<v Speaker 2>there being a database where all of these names were

528
00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:22.799
<v Speaker 2>available and then searched, and that's how the victims were

529
00:27:22.839 --> 00:27:26.119
<v Speaker 2>picked seems unlikely given the time period, But if it

530
00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:29.599
<v Speaker 2>was file folders, it makes you wonder did the zip

531
00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:34.359
<v Speaker 2>gun bomber attack older people because that was their target

532
00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:37.720
<v Speaker 2>demographic or did they literally just pick files at random

533
00:27:38.119 --> 00:27:40.319
<v Speaker 2>and people who are older are more likely to be

534
00:27:40.359 --> 00:27:43.680
<v Speaker 2>getting multiple different prescriptions or to be in a file

535
00:27:43.759 --> 00:27:48.079
<v Speaker 2>cabinet at a pharmacy at any given time, I would

536
00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:49.880
<v Speaker 2>think that you're going to have a lot less younger

537
00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:54.839
<v Speaker 2>people in the whatever zero to forty five or fifty

538
00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:57.640
<v Speaker 2>range than you would people over the age of fifty,

539
00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:01.000
<v Speaker 2>which every single victim here was, except for, like we said,

540
00:28:01.079 --> 00:28:05.359
<v Speaker 2>Stephanie Gaffney, who was eighteen, but her grandmother was we

541
00:28:05.359 --> 00:28:06.880
<v Speaker 2>can assume the intended target.

542
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:10.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it does make me think that they did additional research,

543
00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:13.039
<v Speaker 1>not just getting names and address that maybe they went

544
00:28:13.079 --> 00:28:15.640
<v Speaker 1>to these addresses and saw, oh, there's old people living there.

545
00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:17.480
<v Speaker 1>They just looks like the type of person who will

546
00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:20.000
<v Speaker 1>open up a package if we send it, and that's

547
00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:23.559
<v Speaker 1>why they selected all these people. But it's another interesting

548
00:28:23.559 --> 00:28:25.799
<v Speaker 1>comment from that New York Daily News article is that

549
00:28:25.839 --> 00:28:29.200
<v Speaker 1>even though they said all this incriminating information about wab

550
00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:32.480
<v Speaker 1>Wright and his roommate, they also stated that neither Craigkip

551
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:35.759
<v Speaker 1>or Howard Kip had been completely ruled out as suspects

552
00:28:35.799 --> 00:28:38.920
<v Speaker 1>in the murder of Joan Kip, which makes me wonder

553
00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:41.960
<v Speaker 1>do they have additional information, because you would think that

554
00:28:42.039 --> 00:28:45.400
<v Speaker 1>after having all these packages get sent out to other victims,

555
00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:48.200
<v Speaker 1>like a full decade after Joan was murdered, that you

556
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:51.400
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't be inclined to lean towards Craig or Howard. So

557
00:28:51.480 --> 00:28:54.000
<v Speaker 1>do they still think that maybe they murdered Joan and

558
00:28:54.039 --> 00:28:57.200
<v Speaker 1>then either a copycat sent out these other packages, or

559
00:28:57.200 --> 00:29:00.000
<v Speaker 1>maybe they sent them out in order to divert suspicion

560
00:29:00.279 --> 00:29:02.599
<v Speaker 1>from themselves. But it just seems like after all that

561
00:29:02.680 --> 00:29:05.279
<v Speaker 1>time that they're pretty much beating a dead horse, still

562
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:07.359
<v Speaker 1>trying to pin the murder on Howard or Craig.

563
00:29:08.279 --> 00:29:10.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this definitely feels like a bit of a reach,

564
00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:14.640
<v Speaker 2>especially at this point. Like I understood what investigators were

565
00:29:14.680 --> 00:29:17.720
<v Speaker 2>doing when they were looking into Craig and Howard for

566
00:29:17.799 --> 00:29:21.440
<v Speaker 2>Jones murder, but now with everything else that's come out,

567
00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:24.680
<v Speaker 2>it just seems so unlikely that either of them was involved.

568
00:29:24.880 --> 00:29:27.880
<v Speaker 2>And if we think back to the evidence against Craig

569
00:29:28.039 --> 00:29:31.200
<v Speaker 2>that they decided to take to trial, they really did

570
00:29:31.240 --> 00:29:35.559
<v Speaker 2>not have good evidence. It was wildly circumstantial, and it

571
00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:39.640
<v Speaker 2>was like speculative science. It wasn't a hard science like DNA.

572
00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:42.480
<v Speaker 2>You know, when you're looking at snifferdog evidence as being

573
00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:45.480
<v Speaker 2>like the cornerstone of your case, you have a problem.

574
00:29:46.039 --> 00:29:48.319
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly. And I think if they had been able

575
00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:50.960
<v Speaker 1>to charge Wava or someone else, they might have finally

576
00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:53.400
<v Speaker 1>said that we're clearing the kIPS. But I think it

577
00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:55.480
<v Speaker 1>was just out of frustration that they've been unable to

578
00:29:55.480 --> 00:29:57.799
<v Speaker 1>solve the crime after twenty years and we're just kind

579
00:29:57.799 --> 00:30:00.160
<v Speaker 1>of at their wits end that they're saying, well, there's

580
00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:02.319
<v Speaker 1>still a possibility it could have been Praig or Howard.

581
00:30:02.359 --> 00:30:05.119
<v Speaker 1>We just don't have the evidence to implicate them. So,

582
00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:07.680
<v Speaker 1>like I said, Wabra was serving time in prison when

583
00:30:07.720 --> 00:30:10.160
<v Speaker 1>that article was published, but he was finally released in

584
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:13.720
<v Speaker 1>March of two thousand and five. I released a Patreon

585
00:30:13.759 --> 00:30:17.559
<v Speaker 1>bonus episode about this in early twenty twenty one, and

586
00:30:17.640 --> 00:30:20.880
<v Speaker 1>at the time I had no idea of Stephen Wabra's whereabouts.

587
00:30:20.920 --> 00:30:23.079
<v Speaker 1>I didn't even know if he was still alive. But

588
00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:26.119
<v Speaker 1>in December of twenty twenty one, Wabra actually made the

589
00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:30.119
<v Speaker 1>news again for getting arrested in an anti vaccine demonstration.

590
00:30:31.160 --> 00:30:33.160
<v Speaker 1>You might recall that during that time period, if you

591
00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:35.359
<v Speaker 1>wanted to go out to a restaurant, you would actually

592
00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:38.480
<v Speaker 1>have to provide proof of vaccination before they would seat you.

593
00:30:39.160 --> 00:30:41.640
<v Speaker 1>But Wabar was part of a group that decided to

594
00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:44.519
<v Speaker 1>stay a sit in demonstration. They showed up at a

595
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:48.359
<v Speaker 1>cheesecake factory at a queen's mall where they said they

596
00:30:48.359 --> 00:30:51.359
<v Speaker 1>weren't vaccinated, and they just decided to like chain themselves

597
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:53.720
<v Speaker 1>to the seats and refused to leave, and then they

598
00:30:53.720 --> 00:30:56.000
<v Speaker 1>called in the police and then they were carted out

599
00:30:56.039 --> 00:30:59.039
<v Speaker 1>and charged with trespassing. And I think there were six

600
00:30:59.079 --> 00:31:01.200
<v Speaker 1>people involved, but I saw the names and one of

601
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:04.440
<v Speaker 1>them was sixty seven year old Steven Wabra, and it's like, yep,

602
00:31:04.519 --> 00:31:07.160
<v Speaker 1>the age is correct, and this sounds exactly like something

603
00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:09.759
<v Speaker 1>Wabra would do. So I'm pretty sure this is the

604
00:31:09.799 --> 00:31:12.480
<v Speaker 1>same guy, and that at least in December of twenty

605
00:31:12.599 --> 00:31:15.319
<v Speaker 1>twenty one, he was still alive. But other than that,

606
00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:17.480
<v Speaker 1>it sounds like he has kept his nose clean since

607
00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:19.720
<v Speaker 1>he was released from prison in two thousand and five.

608
00:31:20.319 --> 00:31:22.519
<v Speaker 1>And they just still haven't been able to find any

609
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:26.319
<v Speaker 1>other evidence to implicate him in these bombings, so officially,

610
00:31:26.359 --> 00:31:28.599
<v Speaker 1>the zip gun bomber remains unidentified.

611
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:32.079
<v Speaker 2>Well, from what we know, Stephen Wavra seems to be

612
00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:35.319
<v Speaker 2>the most compelling suspect, and we know that he had

613
00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:38.079
<v Speaker 2>to have had a partner or it seems highly probable

614
00:31:38.079 --> 00:31:39.920
<v Speaker 2>that he had to have had a partner, and so

615
00:31:40.039 --> 00:31:42.400
<v Speaker 2>his roommate would be a logical choice. They're spending a

616
00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:45.440
<v Speaker 2>lot of time together. And I do get why they

617
00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:48.359
<v Speaker 2>didn't release the name of the roommate because, like I

618
00:31:48.440 --> 00:31:52.480
<v Speaker 2>mentioned earlier, he could have been unfairly targeted and maybe

619
00:31:52.519 --> 00:31:55.960
<v Speaker 2>they weren't quite sure. Don't they have laws like that

620
00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:59.720
<v Speaker 2>to shield criminals in maybe in Australia.

621
00:31:59.640 --> 00:32:02.160
<v Speaker 1>I think so, and also in places like Ireland where

622
00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:04.680
<v Speaker 1>people will be arrested for questioning but they won't release

623
00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:08.720
<v Speaker 1>their names to the public. But yeah, Wabra, if he

624
00:32:08.799 --> 00:32:11.279
<v Speaker 1>was responsible, just to look at the timeline here, he

625
00:32:11.359 --> 00:32:14.279
<v Speaker 1>obviously could not have personally mailed the package to Joan

626
00:32:14.359 --> 00:32:17.119
<v Speaker 1>Kip in nineteen eighty two since he was in jail,

627
00:32:17.240 --> 00:32:19.279
<v Speaker 1>so he would have needed to get his roommate to

628
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:21.480
<v Speaker 1>do it. He could have mailed out the first three

629
00:32:21.519 --> 00:32:24.559
<v Speaker 1>packages from nineteen ninety three until nineteen ninety five, but

630
00:32:24.680 --> 00:32:27.480
<v Speaker 1>of course the last one took place after he was

631
00:32:27.519 --> 00:32:30.200
<v Speaker 1>re arrested, So in that case, the one to Richard Basil,

632
00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:32.519
<v Speaker 1>he would have needed to get his roommate to mail

633
00:32:32.559 --> 00:32:35.200
<v Speaker 1>out on his behalf if he was guilty, So that

634
00:32:35.359 --> 00:32:37.160
<v Speaker 1>is a theory that makes the most sense to me.

635
00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:40.599
<v Speaker 1>I don't believe that Howard or Craig Kip were guilty

636
00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:42.720
<v Speaker 1>of this crime. It doesn't make any sense. They had

637
00:32:42.759 --> 00:32:45.799
<v Speaker 1>no motive. So I think that if it was Wabra,

638
00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:49.039
<v Speaker 1>then for whatever reason he decided to target Joan Kip,

639
00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:51.680
<v Speaker 1>and then maybe he did it was a one only thing,

640
00:32:51.759 --> 00:32:54.119
<v Speaker 1>like maybe it was a personal grudge. But then a

641
00:32:54.160 --> 00:32:57.279
<v Speaker 1>decade later he was feeling antsy again because the unibomber

642
00:32:57.359 --> 00:32:59.559
<v Speaker 1>was getting attention and he wanted to do something to

643
00:32:59.559 --> 00:33:02.960
<v Speaker 1>get head, so he started mailing out the packages again,

644
00:33:03.160 --> 00:33:05.240
<v Speaker 1>and once he went to prison, and then once the

645
00:33:05.319 --> 00:33:08.440
<v Speaker 1>unibomber was captured, maybe the roommate said no way, I'm

646
00:33:08.480 --> 00:33:10.680
<v Speaker 1>not going to mail any more packages on your behalf,

647
00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:14.240
<v Speaker 1>and that's why they suddenly stopped. Because Wabra was incarcerated

648
00:33:14.279 --> 00:33:17.160
<v Speaker 1>from nineteen ninety six until two thousand and five, and

649
00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:20.319
<v Speaker 1>the packages came to an end once they came up

650
00:33:20.359 --> 00:33:22.680
<v Speaker 1>with the zipgun bomber title and it was featured on

651
00:33:22.759 --> 00:33:25.880
<v Speaker 1>Unsolved Mysteries. So I think that's probably what happened if

652
00:33:25.960 --> 00:33:27.799
<v Speaker 1>we're going by the most logical thing is that these

653
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:30.319
<v Speaker 1>two men worked in cahoots together, but we're still not

654
00:33:30.359 --> 00:33:32.559
<v Speaker 1>really going to know the motive and why they selected

655
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:34.000
<v Speaker 1>these particular victims.

656
00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:37.920
<v Speaker 2>I think given what little information we have, it's pretty

657
00:33:37.960 --> 00:33:44.039
<v Speaker 2>easy to operate under the presupposition that Wavra did indeed

658
00:33:44.119 --> 00:33:48.319
<v Speaker 2>have some involvement in this, specifically with Joan because of

659
00:33:48.359 --> 00:33:51.599
<v Speaker 2>his tie to her and the hollowed out books, and

660
00:33:51.640 --> 00:33:55.480
<v Speaker 2>then potentially the roommate or somebody else continued on. But

661
00:33:55.960 --> 00:33:59.480
<v Speaker 2>we also have to entertain the possibility that there could

662
00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:02.880
<v Speaker 2>be somebody out there who police haven't been able to

663
00:34:03.400 --> 00:34:06.640
<v Speaker 2>question or hasn't even been on their radar, who could

664
00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:09.599
<v Speaker 2>be responsible for this, because I mean, if we look

665
00:34:09.639 --> 00:34:13.199
<v Speaker 2>at Wavra without having an accomplice, he could not have

666
00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:15.159
<v Speaker 2>done it because he was locked up for the three

667
00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:18.000
<v Speaker 2>other attacks. Yes, he could have done Jones, but the

668
00:34:18.039 --> 00:34:21.920
<v Speaker 2>similarities between the two seems to indicate that there was

669
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:26.039
<v Speaker 2>one offender involved in both series of attacks, whether or

670
00:34:26.119 --> 00:34:28.760
<v Speaker 2>not they were the one that executed it both times

671
00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:33.239
<v Speaker 2>remains up for debate. One last thing. We also have

672
00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:37.880
<v Speaker 2>to assume that either Wavra was the mastermind or the

673
00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:41.440
<v Speaker 2>roommate was the mastermind, because somebody had to have taught

674
00:34:41.480 --> 00:34:46.400
<v Speaker 2>the other person unless somehow they were in some program

675
00:34:46.480 --> 00:34:51.599
<v Speaker 2>together where they had some kind of engineering education. But

676
00:34:51.639 --> 00:34:54.519
<v Speaker 2>that seems more unlikely than one of them being the

677
00:34:54.559 --> 00:34:57.880
<v Speaker 2>mastermind and the other kind of just going along for

678
00:34:57.920 --> 00:35:01.159
<v Speaker 2>the ride. But we have to assume that there is

679
00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:03.719
<v Speaker 2>a second person in order for Waba to be the guy.

680
00:35:04.039 --> 00:35:07.760
<v Speaker 2>So there's just so many assumptions and presuppositions that we

681
00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:11.239
<v Speaker 2>have to operate under in the way that we're trying

682
00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:14.079
<v Speaker 2>to gut us. But like the investigators are trying to

683
00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:18.000
<v Speaker 2>make Wabra the guy, it almost feels a little unindicted

684
00:35:18.039 --> 00:35:21.000
<v Speaker 2>co conspirator or unindicted co ejaculator.

685
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:23.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that is the problem, is that there is not

686
00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:26.440
<v Speaker 1>one theory that makes sense in this case. And for

687
00:35:26.480 --> 00:35:29.159
<v Speaker 1>all we know, maybe the roommate was the main mastermind

688
00:35:29.199 --> 00:35:31.679
<v Speaker 1>and Wabra helped him out a few times in the nineties,

689
00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:34.039
<v Speaker 1>even though maybe it was the roommate's idea to mail

690
00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:37.000
<v Speaker 1>the package to Joan Kip but of course the other

691
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:39.360
<v Speaker 1>simple solution is that it's someone that has not popped

692
00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:41.800
<v Speaker 1>up on the radar as a suspect, that just mailed

693
00:35:41.840 --> 00:35:43.920
<v Speaker 1>out all of them at the same time, maybe had

694
00:35:43.960 --> 00:35:46.239
<v Speaker 1>no connection to any of the victims, just selected them

695
00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:48.880
<v Speaker 1>at random in the phone book, and then just decided

696
00:35:48.920 --> 00:35:50.880
<v Speaker 1>to do this and has managed to get away with

697
00:35:50.920 --> 00:35:53.760
<v Speaker 1>it for over forty years. But of course that only

698
00:35:53.800 --> 00:35:56.400
<v Speaker 1>opens up a whole bunch of other unanswered questions, is like,

699
00:35:56.440 --> 00:35:58.159
<v Speaker 1>why did he do it once in the eighties and

700
00:35:58.199 --> 00:36:00.679
<v Speaker 1>why did he decide to come back and start doing

701
00:36:00.679 --> 00:36:03.440
<v Speaker 1>it in the nineties. And I'm thinking that if there

702
00:36:03.559 --> 00:36:06.199
<v Speaker 1>was like a reason that these victims were personally targeted,

703
00:36:06.199 --> 00:36:08.119
<v Speaker 1>it would have been so much easier just to send

704
00:36:08.159 --> 00:36:11.519
<v Speaker 1>a bomb that explodes which will kill you instantly, because

705
00:36:11.559 --> 00:36:13.519
<v Speaker 1>as you see, this one had a ratio of one

706
00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:15.719
<v Speaker 1>out of five that actually killed someone. It had a

707
00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:18.440
<v Speaker 1>batting average of two hundred. So it makes me think

708
00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:20.639
<v Speaker 1>that if you really wanted to kill these people, if

709
00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:23.039
<v Speaker 1>you had a personal vendetta, you would have sent a

710
00:36:23.079 --> 00:36:26.360
<v Speaker 1>bomb and something a lot less complicated. So it makes

711
00:36:26.440 --> 00:36:28.519
<v Speaker 1>me think that the person all they cared about was

712
00:36:28.559 --> 00:36:32.320
<v Speaker 1>causing fear, causing injuries and that killing these particular victims

713
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:33.960
<v Speaker 1>was of secondary importance.

714
00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:38.280
<v Speaker 2>That makes sense to me. But if they were operating

715
00:36:38.320 --> 00:36:41.639
<v Speaker 2>in tandem, and let's just say that it was the

716
00:36:41.719 --> 00:36:45.360
<v Speaker 2>roommate who was indeed the mastermind, I find it curious

717
00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:49.280
<v Speaker 2>that this person, who obviously would have to be very calculated,

718
00:36:49.400 --> 00:36:54.519
<v Speaker 2>very methodical, would have somebody as chaotic and seemingly unpredictable

719
00:36:54.599 --> 00:36:58.760
<v Speaker 2>as Wabra pick the victim, even if at random. It

720
00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:01.599
<v Speaker 2>just seems like that wouldn't be something that you would

721
00:37:01.719 --> 00:37:05.800
<v Speaker 2>want to trust somebody like him with if you're somebody

722
00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:09.159
<v Speaker 2>who's very controlling in nature and calculated, which it seems

723
00:37:09.199 --> 00:37:11.599
<v Speaker 2>like the person who would be the mastermind of this

724
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:14.519
<v Speaker 2>would be, because you have to lay in wait. It

725
00:37:14.559 --> 00:37:16.840
<v Speaker 2>takes a long time to build a device like this

726
00:37:17.039 --> 00:37:21.639
<v Speaker 2>to choose the victims. And so maybe Wavra shows Joan Kip,

727
00:37:21.719 --> 00:37:24.239
<v Speaker 2>but he didn't say that he had a connection to her.

728
00:37:24.679 --> 00:37:27.760
<v Speaker 2>Because if the roommate is the mastermind, even if it's

729
00:37:27.800 --> 00:37:31.239
<v Speaker 2>anybody attached to Wavra, if Wavra picks a victim that

730
00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:34.320
<v Speaker 2>can be traced back to him, then this other individual

731
00:37:34.360 --> 00:37:36.599
<v Speaker 2>could then be traced back to the victim by a

732
00:37:36.639 --> 00:37:40.159
<v Speaker 2>couple degrees of separation, so it wouldn't be the most

733
00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:44.280
<v Speaker 2>intelligent move, and we see criminals make mistakes all the time,

734
00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:47.320
<v Speaker 2>so of course that's not outside the realm of possibility,

735
00:37:47.480 --> 00:37:51.039
<v Speaker 2>which also makes me think, Okay, so if maybe they

736
00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:53.679
<v Speaker 2>had this big plan where they wanted, like you said,

737
00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:56.840
<v Speaker 2>to be out there causing all of this like fear

738
00:37:56.960 --> 00:38:02.159
<v Speaker 2>in mayhem, then being famous indirectly for what they've done,

739
00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:04.960
<v Speaker 2>and just to do it one time to Joan Kip,

740
00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:08.960
<v Speaker 2>that seems really curious because if your objective is to

741
00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:12.320
<v Speaker 2>create this panic in the public and to become famous

742
00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:15.480
<v Speaker 2>in a way or infamous, then just doing it one time,

743
00:38:16.239 --> 00:38:20.119
<v Speaker 2>maybe something was going on behind the scenes. Maybe the

744
00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:24.159
<v Speaker 2>mastermind whomever that was, found out that Joan Kip had

745
00:38:24.199 --> 00:38:28.159
<v Speaker 2>that connection to Wavra and then became really paranoid and

746
00:38:28.280 --> 00:38:30.840
<v Speaker 2>was like, okay, we better sit back and not do

747
00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:33.000
<v Speaker 2>anything for a while, because what if this is tied

748
00:38:33.039 --> 00:38:36.079
<v Speaker 2>back to us, And if that was the thought process

749
00:38:36.280 --> 00:38:39.239
<v Speaker 2>of the person who was the mastermind, then maybe they

750
00:38:39.280 --> 00:38:41.800
<v Speaker 2>were just a better criminal than Wavra. And there's a

751
00:38:41.880 --> 00:38:45.960
<v Speaker 2>reason that they haven't been caught because Wavra has made

752
00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:49.320
<v Speaker 2>some egregious errors and he's very impulsive in the way

753
00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:53.079
<v Speaker 2>that he's acted, so it's not really a shocker that

754
00:38:53.159 --> 00:38:55.639
<v Speaker 2>he ended up behind bars not for this, but for

755
00:38:55.679 --> 00:38:58.760
<v Speaker 2>something else. And so the fact that we don't have

756
00:38:58.840 --> 00:39:03.199
<v Speaker 2>this other individual behind bars insofar as we know, may

757
00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:07.320
<v Speaker 2>lend some credence to the idea that the mastermind was

758
00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:08.559
<v Speaker 2>definitely not Wavra.

759
00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:11.800
<v Speaker 1>We talked about Louis Sappola, how the fact that he

760
00:39:11.840 --> 00:39:14.440
<v Speaker 1>got arrested for throwing a hand grenade at his enemy

761
00:39:14.840 --> 00:39:17.360
<v Speaker 1>leads away from him doing such an intricate crime which

762
00:39:17.400 --> 00:39:20.119
<v Speaker 1>requires a lot of patients. And we've seen Wavra do

763
00:39:20.480 --> 00:39:22.880
<v Speaker 1>other irrational stuff like throw pepper in the eyes of

764
00:39:22.920 --> 00:39:25.400
<v Speaker 1>an MP, And you're thinking, could the same guy who

765
00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:27.639
<v Speaker 1>do something like that really have the patience and know

766
00:39:27.760 --> 00:39:30.280
<v Speaker 1>withal to like construct a device like this and send

767
00:39:30.280 --> 00:39:32.719
<v Speaker 1>it off in the mail and not have any evidence

768
00:39:32.719 --> 00:39:35.159
<v Speaker 1>pointing towards themselves. So yeah, this could be, for all

769
00:39:35.159 --> 00:39:38.280
<v Speaker 1>we know, a complete genius mastermind who has never been

770
00:39:38.360 --> 00:39:41.199
<v Speaker 1>arrested for anything and has managed to stay out the

771
00:39:41.280 --> 00:39:44.639
<v Speaker 1>radar for forty years. So yeah, I guess that's about

772
00:39:44.679 --> 00:39:46.199
<v Speaker 1>all I have to say about it. I don't know

773
00:39:46.239 --> 00:39:48.559
<v Speaker 1>if it'll ever be solved after all this time. I

774
00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:50.679
<v Speaker 1>guess the news is that this is a crime in

775
00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:54.280
<v Speaker 1>which most of the victims were only injured and only

776
00:39:54.360 --> 00:39:56.440
<v Speaker 1>one of them wound up getting murdered. But it is

777
00:39:56.480 --> 00:39:59.199
<v Speaker 1>still a major tragedy for the kid family because not

778
00:39:59.239 --> 00:40:02.519
<v Speaker 1>only did they lose Joan, but also Craig had to

779
00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:05.440
<v Speaker 1>be what I think was unjustly accused of the crime

780
00:40:05.880 --> 00:40:09.159
<v Speaker 1>and nearly wound up going on trial. And even though

781
00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:12.079
<v Speaker 1>he never actually got convicted, never went to trial or

782
00:40:12.079 --> 00:40:14.719
<v Speaker 1>spend any time in prison, he still had to live

783
00:40:14.760 --> 00:40:17.719
<v Speaker 1>with an accusation of having killed someone and caused his

784
00:40:17.880 --> 00:40:21.960
<v Speaker 1>entire family to relocate from New York to Massachusetts. And

785
00:40:22.159 --> 00:40:23.920
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure it must have broken their heart that even

786
00:40:23.960 --> 00:40:26.639
<v Speaker 1>twenty years later, when they found Wabra as a suspect,

787
00:40:26.679 --> 00:40:29.719
<v Speaker 1>they still said, well, we still haven't cleared Craig or Howard.

788
00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:32.639
<v Speaker 1>We haven't completely eliminated them, So they never officially got

789
00:40:32.679 --> 00:40:35.559
<v Speaker 1>their names cleared. So if the kIPS are completely innocent,

790
00:40:35.679 --> 00:40:38.199
<v Speaker 1>I feel so bad for them. I feel more sympathy

791
00:40:38.199 --> 00:40:39.840
<v Speaker 1>for them than anyone else in this story.

792
00:40:40.599 --> 00:40:44.360
<v Speaker 2>I agree they lost so much. It would be so

793
00:40:44.519 --> 00:40:47.639
<v Speaker 2>catastrophic to lose your wife, to lose your mother with

794
00:40:47.719 --> 00:40:51.760
<v Speaker 2>the murder of Joan, but then to have Craig accused

795
00:40:51.800 --> 00:40:55.599
<v Speaker 2>and Howard under this cloud of suspicion. This poor family

796
00:40:55.800 --> 00:40:59.360
<v Speaker 2>suffered immensely and I'm sure continued to suffer as it

797
00:40:59.400 --> 00:41:03.400
<v Speaker 2>reverberated outwards through the years when they noticed those holidays

798
00:41:03.400 --> 00:41:06.000
<v Speaker 2>that Joan wasn't there for, or maybe the people that

799
00:41:06.079 --> 00:41:08.800
<v Speaker 2>gave them the side eye on the street who wondered, hmm,

800
00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:11.920
<v Speaker 2>could they have had something to do with it. It's kind

801
00:41:11.960 --> 00:41:14.360
<v Speaker 2>of infuriating that they haven't cleared them at this point.

802
00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:16.639
<v Speaker 2>When Wavra shows up on the scene, it's like, just

803
00:41:16.719 --> 00:41:19.800
<v Speaker 2>say that Howard and Craig had nothing to do with this,

804
00:41:19.960 --> 00:41:22.159
<v Speaker 2>and that you guys got it wrong. What does seem

805
00:41:22.199 --> 00:41:24.679
<v Speaker 2>clear is the fact that there was immense pressure from

806
00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:27.480
<v Speaker 2>the public. There was probably pressure from up the chain,

807
00:41:27.679 --> 00:41:30.719
<v Speaker 2>both with investigators and with the district attorney. There was

808
00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:33.599
<v Speaker 2>a lot of people to answer to, and they needed

809
00:41:33.599 --> 00:41:36.000
<v Speaker 2>to close this case because the idea that there could

810
00:41:36.039 --> 00:41:38.760
<v Speaker 2>be this boogeyman out there who could be sending these

811
00:41:38.840 --> 00:41:42.960
<v Speaker 2>zip gun bombs to people, it's unthinkable and the public

812
00:41:43.119 --> 00:41:44.920
<v Speaker 2>would not want that, and they would not want that

813
00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:47.880
<v Speaker 2>out of their politicians or out of their civil servants.

814
00:41:47.920 --> 00:41:51.239
<v Speaker 2>So it could create a really contentious environment and a

815
00:41:51.320 --> 00:41:53.880
<v Speaker 2>pressure work. I don't even think that they would realize

816
00:41:53.880 --> 00:41:56.679
<v Speaker 2>that they have tunnel vision, but they could very easily

817
00:41:56.719 --> 00:42:00.920
<v Speaker 2>get tunnel vision with regards to Craig. And then Wabra

818
00:42:01.079 --> 00:42:04.119
<v Speaker 2>is so interesting because if we are to look at

819
00:42:04.119 --> 00:42:06.119
<v Speaker 2>Wabra being in prison, and we are to look at

820
00:42:06.199 --> 00:42:11.000
<v Speaker 2>Joan's murder, Joan died was she received two shots I

821
00:42:11.079 --> 00:42:14.599
<v Speaker 2>believe from her package the hollowed out cookbook with the

822
00:42:14.760 --> 00:42:18.079
<v Speaker 2>zip gun in there. And then the three other victims

823
00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:21.119
<v Speaker 2>they didn't die. And it makes me wonder does it

824
00:42:21.159 --> 00:42:23.519
<v Speaker 2>all come down to the angle or is there something

825
00:42:23.559 --> 00:42:27.599
<v Speaker 2>in the design that the perpetrator did on purpose where

826
00:42:27.639 --> 00:42:31.000
<v Speaker 2>they didn't want to kill anybody. They maybe just wanted

827
00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:33.639
<v Speaker 2>to injure them or scare them so that it would

828
00:42:33.719 --> 00:42:36.760
<v Speaker 2>create this type of panic or fear or mayhem without

829
00:42:36.760 --> 00:42:40.280
<v Speaker 2>the actual carnage, because maybe that was their objective and

830
00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:44.159
<v Speaker 2>not the murder itself. But then we know Wavra's locked

831
00:42:44.239 --> 00:42:46.679
<v Speaker 2>up for that, So then we questioned, did he do

832
00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:47.559
<v Speaker 2>the initial one?

833
00:42:48.440 --> 00:42:50.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's possible that if it was a copycat or

834
00:42:50.840 --> 00:42:52.880
<v Speaker 1>something that maybe they just weren't as skilled, like it

835
00:42:52.880 --> 00:42:55.760
<v Speaker 1>could be a thing where Wabra or his roommate was

836
00:42:55.760 --> 00:42:57.960
<v Speaker 1>the one who assembled the original device, and the ones

837
00:42:57.960 --> 00:43:00.000
<v Speaker 1>that were sent off in the nineties just weren't as

838
00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:03.320
<v Speaker 1>expertly put together, and that's why there were no fatalities.

839
00:43:03.599 --> 00:43:06.480
<v Speaker 1>There's just no way to know. But yeah, it's whoever

840
00:43:06.519 --> 00:43:09.239
<v Speaker 1>it was, they have left their mark, because this still

841
00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:12.000
<v Speaker 1>remains to this day the only crime of this nature

842
00:43:12.039 --> 00:43:15.039
<v Speaker 1>that I've ever heard of, involving packages with haulowed out

843
00:43:15.079 --> 00:43:18.159
<v Speaker 1>books and medallion boxes that are rigged with zip guns

844
00:43:18.159 --> 00:43:21.039
<v Speaker 1>that fire off at people. So even after this person

845
00:43:21.079 --> 00:43:23.840
<v Speaker 1>passes away, they're still going to remember the zip gun bomber.

846
00:43:24.360 --> 00:43:26.159
<v Speaker 2>Do you even think that he was involved at all?

847
00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:29.360
<v Speaker 1>I think there is a good chance of that, but

848
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:32.000
<v Speaker 1>I still can't get over the fact that the original

849
00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:34.559
<v Speaker 1>one he was in prison for. But the fact that

850
00:43:34.599 --> 00:43:36.760
<v Speaker 1>police think that him and the roommate were in cahoots

851
00:43:36.840 --> 00:43:39.480
<v Speaker 1>makes me think that it was just like a combined

852
00:43:39.559 --> 00:43:42.679
<v Speaker 1>thing where maybe at one time one of them created

853
00:43:42.679 --> 00:43:44.920
<v Speaker 1>the device and the second time one of the others

854
00:43:44.920 --> 00:43:46.840
<v Speaker 1>created the device, so they kind of took turns or

855
00:43:46.880 --> 00:43:49.800
<v Speaker 1>something like that and worked in tandem for over a decade.

856
00:43:49.880 --> 00:43:51.920
<v Speaker 1>But I mean, I can't figure out the motive. But

857
00:43:51.960 --> 00:43:54.719
<v Speaker 1>when you see Wabra's other behavior. Maybe trying to figure

858
00:43:54.719 --> 00:43:57.239
<v Speaker 1>out a motive is an exercise of futility because we're

859
00:43:57.280 --> 00:43:59.960
<v Speaker 1>not dealing with people who are thinking in a rational facts.

860
00:44:01.239 --> 00:44:03.719
<v Speaker 2>This is very true, and I think that's evident from

861
00:44:03.760 --> 00:44:07.320
<v Speaker 2>the behavior of Wavra. But if he has this other

862
00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:11.400
<v Speaker 2>co conspirator, or it is indeed the roommate, and we

863
00:44:11.559 --> 00:44:13.920
<v Speaker 2>just don't know who that roommate is, the connections that

864
00:44:13.960 --> 00:44:16.719
<v Speaker 2>they have, the type of life that they've had, what

865
00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:20.480
<v Speaker 2>type of emotional trauma and triggers. So there could be

866
00:44:20.679 --> 00:44:23.800
<v Speaker 2>a motive that's hidden and we're just incapable of seeing

867
00:44:23.840 --> 00:44:27.280
<v Speaker 2>it because we don't understand the connections. And I keep

868
00:44:27.320 --> 00:44:29.559
<v Speaker 2>coming back to this over and over and over in

869
00:44:29.639 --> 00:44:33.559
<v Speaker 2>my head. I just can't shake was the first murder

870
00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:37.039
<v Speaker 2>of Joan was it because there was more skill and

871
00:44:37.119 --> 00:44:40.760
<v Speaker 2>accuracy with the device? Or was it intended to murder her?

872
00:44:40.840 --> 00:44:44.559
<v Speaker 2>And then the other three devices were meant not to murder.

873
00:44:44.960 --> 00:44:48.039
<v Speaker 2>Was it just such great skill in the design that

874
00:44:48.159 --> 00:44:51.360
<v Speaker 2>they didn't end up murdering the three individuals that opened them,

875
00:44:51.559 --> 00:44:53.639
<v Speaker 2>or was it a lack of skill. I guess it

876
00:44:53.719 --> 00:44:56.960
<v Speaker 2>just depends on how you decide to interpret the evidence.

877
00:44:57.039 --> 00:44:59.440
<v Speaker 2>Or what lens you'd look through, because if you look

878
00:44:59.480 --> 00:45:01.199
<v Speaker 2>at it like this, this person who is more skilled,

879
00:45:01.239 --> 00:45:04.679
<v Speaker 2>you go, oh, okay, well their objective was different than murder,

880
00:45:04.719 --> 00:45:07.639
<v Speaker 2>but the first objective appeared to clearly be murder, So

881
00:45:07.719 --> 00:45:09.039
<v Speaker 2>it's just also confusing.

882
00:45:10.480 --> 00:45:12.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and oh, let's also not forget that it also

883
00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:15.159
<v Speaker 1>had the note that was addressed to Howard. So it

884
00:45:15.159 --> 00:45:18.079
<v Speaker 1>makes me wonder was Howard the target all along? Did

885
00:45:18.079 --> 00:45:20.719
<v Speaker 1>someone just want to cause him terror and kill his

886
00:45:20.760 --> 00:45:22.840
<v Speaker 1>wife and cause him to live in constant fear for

887
00:45:22.960 --> 00:45:25.840
<v Speaker 1>himself and his family? So who knows? Maybe it was

888
00:45:25.840 --> 00:45:28.519
<v Speaker 1>someone from Howard's background who sent this whole thing in motion.

889
00:45:29.159 --> 00:45:31.679
<v Speaker 2>Something about the first crime, it just feels a lot

890
00:45:31.760 --> 00:45:32.960
<v Speaker 2>more personal.

891
00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:35.920
<v Speaker 1>It does. Yeah, Like the other victims just feel completely random,

892
00:45:36.079 --> 00:45:38.039
<v Speaker 1>just selected because their names were drawn out of the

893
00:45:38.039 --> 00:45:40.320
<v Speaker 1>phone book or something. But I do think that this

894
00:45:40.360 --> 00:45:42.840
<v Speaker 1>first bomb was made by someone who had a personal

895
00:45:42.880 --> 00:45:46.519
<v Speaker 1>grudge against the Kit family. So any further thoughts on

896
00:45:46.559 --> 00:45:47.480
<v Speaker 1>the zip gun bomber.

897
00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:51.840
<v Speaker 2>My final thoughts are just the same as yours in

898
00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:54.840
<v Speaker 2>the sense that somebody had to have had a grudge

899
00:45:54.840 --> 00:45:58.320
<v Speaker 2>against the Kit family. They were either targeting Howard or

900
00:45:58.360 --> 00:46:02.000
<v Speaker 2>targeting Joan and by targeting Joan, they could have been

901
00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:05.679
<v Speaker 2>targeting Howard. The note that was sent to them, and

902
00:46:05.719 --> 00:46:09.440
<v Speaker 2>then the fact that she came up with the idea

903
00:46:09.480 --> 00:46:11.760
<v Speaker 2>that there could be other people who were being targeted

904
00:46:12.079 --> 00:46:14.480
<v Speaker 2>makes me wonder, and it's just one of those things

905
00:46:14.480 --> 00:46:17.320
<v Speaker 2>that I can't let go of. Was somebody threatening her?

906
00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:20.599
<v Speaker 2>Did she feel unsafe for some reason in the days, weeks,

907
00:46:20.679 --> 00:46:23.719
<v Speaker 2>or months leading up to her death. I really wish

908
00:46:23.840 --> 00:46:26.880
<v Speaker 2>that investigators would have had the words that Joan said

909
00:46:27.039 --> 00:46:30.119
<v Speaker 2>specifically so that we would know, or that we had

910
00:46:30.199 --> 00:46:33.480
<v Speaker 2>just a greater inclination of what she was trying to

911
00:46:33.519 --> 00:46:38.320
<v Speaker 2>get across. It's such a tragic end. We have Craig

912
00:46:38.519 --> 00:46:41.719
<v Speaker 2>who got really swept up in the mess of it all.

913
00:46:42.280 --> 00:46:44.920
<v Speaker 2>I can understand why investigators looked at him, and the

914
00:46:44.960 --> 00:46:49.559
<v Speaker 2>same goes for Howard. But this family truly suffered. There's

915
00:46:49.599 --> 00:46:52.719
<v Speaker 2>a lot of victims in this case, but the kIPS

916
00:46:52.800 --> 00:46:55.599
<v Speaker 2>family they bore the brunt of it. And I think

917
00:46:55.679 --> 00:46:59.199
<v Speaker 2>one of the worst things about this that whomever did this,

918
00:46:59.480 --> 00:47:02.079
<v Speaker 2>they still haven't been held accountable for what they did

919
00:47:02.480 --> 00:47:04.960
<v Speaker 2>to the entire Kip family. For the fact that Joan

920
00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:07.559
<v Speaker 2>lost her life and all of the other victims here

921
00:47:07.760 --> 00:47:12.079
<v Speaker 2>that thankfully did not die after their interaction with the device.

922
00:47:12.800 --> 00:47:15.239
<v Speaker 2>So there's just so much tragedy here, and I can't

923
00:47:15.280 --> 00:47:18.440
<v Speaker 2>believe after all this time that this case is still unsolved.

924
00:47:19.480 --> 00:47:21.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, if it was just these other crimes, there would

925
00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:24.320
<v Speaker 1>probably be a statute of limitations on them just because

926
00:47:24.360 --> 00:47:27.079
<v Speaker 1>no one was killed. But because Kip was murdered and

927
00:47:27.079 --> 00:47:29.679
<v Speaker 1>there's no statute of limitations on murder, this case will

928
00:47:29.719 --> 00:47:32.159
<v Speaker 1>always remain open, so there will always be a chance

929
00:47:32.199 --> 00:47:35.000
<v Speaker 1>that we could find out who the perpetrator was. Like

930
00:47:35.039 --> 00:47:37.360
<v Speaker 1>I said, I have no idea if they've ever attempted

931
00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:40.119
<v Speaker 1>to do DNA on this device on any of the books,

932
00:47:40.159 --> 00:47:42.400
<v Speaker 1>because that was not an option back in the nineteen eighties.

933
00:47:42.440 --> 00:47:44.199
<v Speaker 1>But I'd like to see them try now because the

934
00:47:44.280 --> 00:47:47.360
<v Speaker 1>last few years have shown that forensics has advanced so

935
00:47:47.480 --> 00:47:51.280
<v Speaker 1>much that you can extract DNA from anything. So yeah,

936
00:47:51.320 --> 00:47:52.920
<v Speaker 1>I guess the last thing I'll say is that if

937
00:47:52.960 --> 00:47:55.840
<v Speaker 1>any of you out there receiving any mysterious packages containing

938
00:47:55.880 --> 00:48:00.480
<v Speaker 1>cookbooks or boxes of medallions, don't open them. What brings

939
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:02.559
<v Speaker 1>an end to our series about the zip gun bomber.

940
00:48:02.719 --> 00:48:04.599
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for your support, and we will

941
00:48:04.639 --> 00:48:08.559
<v Speaker 1>see you again next week when we talk about another case, Robin, do.

942
00:48:08.559 --> 00:48:09.960
<v Speaker 2>You want to tell us a little bit about the

943
00:48:09.960 --> 00:48:11.119
<v Speaker 2>Trail Went Cold Patreon?

944
00:48:11.840 --> 00:48:14.199
<v Speaker 1>Yes, The Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three

945
00:48:14.280 --> 00:48:18.039
<v Speaker 1>years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like

946
00:48:18.119 --> 00:48:21.480
<v Speaker 1>early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers

947
00:48:21.519 --> 00:48:24.360
<v Speaker 1>and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up

948
00:48:24.360 --> 00:48:26.960
<v Speaker 1>with us on Patreon. If you join our five dollars

949
00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:31.079
<v Speaker 1>tier tier two, we also offer monthly bonus episodes in

950
00:48:31.119 --> 00:48:34.280
<v Speaker 1>which I talk about cases which are not featured on

951
00:48:34.320 --> 00:48:37.639
<v Speaker 1>the Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon,

952
00:48:37.920 --> 00:48:40.440
<v Speaker 1>and if you join our highest tier tier three, the

953
00:48:40.480 --> 00:48:43.400
<v Speaker 1>ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer is

954
00:48:43.480 --> 00:48:47.760
<v Speaker 1>a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsaved Mysteries,

955
00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:51.000
<v Speaker 1>where you can download an audio file and then boot

956
00:48:51.039 --> 00:48:54.280
<v Speaker 1>up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or

957
00:48:54.280 --> 00:48:57.679
<v Speaker 1>YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in

958
00:48:57.719 --> 00:49:00.960
<v Speaker 1>the background, where I just provide trivia and about the

959
00:49:00.960 --> 00:49:04.599
<v Speaker 1>cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very first

960
00:49:04.599 --> 00:49:07.280
<v Speaker 1>episode that I did a commentary track over was the

961
00:49:07.320 --> 00:49:10.440
<v Speaker 1>episode featuring this case. So if you want to download

962
00:49:10.440 --> 00:49:12.960
<v Speaker 1>a commentary track in which I make more smart ass

963
00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:16.559
<v Speaker 1>remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join Tier three.

964
00:49:16.760 --> 00:49:18.280
<v Speaker 3>So I want to let you know a little bit

965
00:49:18.280 --> 00:49:21.239
<v Speaker 3>about the jewels and Nashty patreons. So there's early ad

966
00:49:21.280 --> 00:49:24.159
<v Speaker 3>free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got our

967
00:49:24.199 --> 00:49:27.199
<v Speaker 3>Pathwent Chili mini's which are always over an hour, so

968
00:49:27.239 --> 00:49:29.360
<v Speaker 3>they're not very many, but they're just too short to

969
00:49:29.400 --> 00:49:32.280
<v Speaker 3>turn into a series and we're really enjoying doing those,

970
00:49:32.360 --> 00:49:34.920
<v Speaker 3>so we hope you'll check out those patreons will link

971
00:49:34.960 --> 00:49:36.039
<v Speaker 3>them in the show notes.

972
00:49:36.519 --> 00:49:38.440
<v Speaker 1>So I want to thank you all for listening, and

973
00:49:38.559 --> 00:49:40.920
<v Speaker 1>any chance you have to share us on social media

974
00:49:40.960 --> 00:49:43.960
<v Speaker 1>with a friend or to rate and review is greatly appreciated.

975
00:49:44.079 --> 00:49:46.519
<v Speaker 1>You can email us at The Pathwent Chili at gmail

976
00:49:46.519 --> 00:49:49.559
<v Speaker 1>dot com. You can reach us on Twitter at the Pathwin.

977
00:49:49.960 --> 00:49:52.440
<v Speaker 1>So until next time, be sure to bundle up because

978
00:49:52.480 --> 00:49:55.280
<v Speaker 1>cold trails and Chili pass call for warm clothing.

979
00:49:55.480 --> 00:49:58.639
<v Speaker 2>Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy