1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind podcast. Word from our sponsors. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:22,879 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, astrator of the Colonial 7 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,519 Parkway Murders Facebook group together with Kristin Dilly. 8 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 2: My name is Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 3: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 10 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 11 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 12 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 4: Welcome to Mind Over Murder. 14 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. 15 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:50,439 Speaker 4: We're joined today by Michael Butterfield, author of The Zodiac Killer, 16 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:54,359 The story of America's most elusive murderer. Michael, thank you 17 00:00:54,399 --> 00:00:55,439 for joining us today. 18 00:00:55,759 --> 00:00:56,679 Speaker 5: Thank you for having me. 19 00:00:58,159 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 4: We are so thrilled to have our first Zodiac expert 20 00:01:02,679 --> 00:01:06,599 on the case. We tend to shy away from Zodiac 21 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,280 because there is so much to it and we have 22 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,799 yet to find a truly superlative experts. So thank you 23 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,760 for joining us. We really appreciate you lending your expertise. 24 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 5: I appreciate the invitation, so. 25 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,439 Speaker 4: Start by telling us what actually sparked your interest in 26 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:23,959 the Zodiac case, because you've been with this case for 27 00:01:24,079 --> 00:01:24,920 quite a while. 28 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, longer than I care to admit. Basically, for me, 29 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,280 it started very early on because of my interest in 30 00:01:33,439 --> 00:01:36,599 true crime. I don't know how old you guys are 31 00:01:36,719 --> 00:01:40,439 or the listeners, but when I was growing up, a 32 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:43,480 big part of my life was the Scholastic book fair 33 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,760 at school, and I used to order as many books 34 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:54,040 as I was able to, mostly Peanuts books or BC 35 00:01:54,359 --> 00:01:57,640 or things like that. But at a certain point I started, 36 00:01:57,799 --> 00:02:00,840 maybe because of television, things like in st and things 37 00:02:00,879 --> 00:02:05,239 like that. I'd heard about Jack the Ripper and I 38 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,280 bought a book which I may actually still have in 39 00:02:08,319 --> 00:02:11,039 a box somewhere, I'm not sure, but it was a 40 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:15,400 book about legends and werewolves and vampires and things like that, 41 00:02:16,039 --> 00:02:19,520 and in it there were these wood cuttings and engravings, 42 00:02:19,719 --> 00:02:23,680 very old depictions of were wolves and vampires. And also, 43 00:02:24,319 --> 00:02:28,560 I believe you pronounced it, Jill day Killer, who there 44 00:02:28,599 --> 00:02:31,159 was a picture of him like crawling on all fours 45 00:02:31,159 --> 00:02:33,400 with a child in his mouth, and I remember just 46 00:02:33,479 --> 00:02:40,479 being horrified by that and wanting to understand more about it. 47 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,560 Because of that, I started at the library I was 48 00:02:43,599 --> 00:02:47,120 probably ten years old or something like that and looking 49 00:02:47,159 --> 00:02:49,879 at things about Jack the Ripper, And because of that, 50 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,800 I was drawn to this movie that came out in 51 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,960 nineteen seventy nine called Time After Time, which I think 52 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:01,000 is just an amazing film, And it's story about HG. 53 00:03:01,039 --> 00:03:05,840 Wells who builds a time machine and his friend, a surgeon, 54 00:03:06,479 --> 00:03:10,479 turns out to be Jack the Ripper, and he steals 55 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,919 the time machine and goes to nineteen seventy nine San 56 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,479 Francisco and HG. Wells chases him there and tries to 57 00:03:17,479 --> 00:03:19,520 bring him back to justice and everything, and it's a 58 00:03:19,599 --> 00:03:23,680 fantastic movie. Malcolm McDowell plays HG. Wells and David Warner 59 00:03:23,719 --> 00:03:27,599 plays Jack the Ripper. But in that movie they mentioned 60 00:03:27,759 --> 00:03:31,560 the Zodiac. A neighbor of ours who was a detective 61 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:33,639 here in Arizona who was involved in a lot of 62 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,840 high profile cases, used to mention the Zodiac as a 63 00:03:37,879 --> 00:03:42,360 boogeyman kind of character because I had asked him about it, 64 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,039 piqued my interest, and of course I went to the 65 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,719 library and try to look through old newspaper articles and 66 00:03:47,759 --> 00:03:51,120 things like that. So by the time nineteen eighty six 67 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,360 rolled around, in the book Zodiac came out, I was 68 00:03:54,439 --> 00:03:59,080 primed for that and reignited more interest in it, and 69 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:02,000 then over the years my desire to learn more about 70 00:04:02,039 --> 00:04:04,800 the case beyond what was in that book led to 71 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,080 what has now been a decades long effort. 72 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: So the nineteen eighty six book Zodiac that you're referencing, 73 00:04:12,879 --> 00:04:14,639 this is the Robert Graysmith book. 74 00:04:15,039 --> 00:04:17,759 Speaker 5: Yes, what they often refer to as the yellow Book. 75 00:04:17,879 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: Yes, that's funny. Mine has a reddish cover. It cussed 76 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:23,160 the way there. 77 00:04:23,519 --> 00:04:26,879 Speaker 5: Yeah, well the hard back was I think black black 78 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,079 cover on it, but the paperback, which became the version 79 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,480 that most people got, was a yellow cover. 80 00:04:32,959 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: And is that the first book that kind of covered 81 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:38,360 the case in an in depth way? 82 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 5: Yes? Yes, there were other books where the Zodiac was 83 00:04:42,399 --> 00:04:45,439 a subject in the book, like Great Crimes of San 84 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:49,240 Francisco and I think Order of the Assassins by Colin 85 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,399 Wilson and things like that, compilations of true crime stories 86 00:04:52,399 --> 00:04:54,600 where the Zodiac was one of the stories in it. 87 00:04:54,639 --> 00:04:58,519 But I believe Zodiac was the first in depth examination 88 00:04:58,680 --> 00:04:59,439 of the case. 89 00:05:00,759 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 4: At this point, there is no shortage of books on 90 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,800 the Zodiac case, and of course you've written the most 91 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:12,439 recent entry into that storied canon. What would you say 92 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,759 if you had to pick, like a best resource or 93 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,240 best resources that have been written on the case, what 94 00:05:19,319 --> 00:05:21,720 would you choose? Would you say that Gray Smith's book 95 00:05:21,759 --> 00:05:24,800 is right up there. As you've been involved in the 96 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,319 case for so long, I'm sure that you have favorites 97 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,319 and least favorites. 98 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 5: You can't see it. But behind me here there is 99 00:05:33,759 --> 00:05:38,199 a true crime collection on my bookshelves which is larger 100 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:43,199 than the true crime section in most bookstores, and mine 101 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:47,360 is too because I've been accumulating it for decades. But 102 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:52,319 there's one entire column that's all Zodiac and Zodiac related books, 103 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:57,199 books about astrology, books about San Francisco, true crime reference books, 104 00:05:57,199 --> 00:06:02,319 and things about cryptography and stuff. There's also, unfortunately, a 105 00:06:02,439 --> 00:06:05,959 very large collection of books written by people who claim 106 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:11,079 that they have solved the case. Those books dominate the 107 00:06:11,199 --> 00:06:15,680 Zodiac book market, and unfortunately the overwhelming majority of them 108 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:20,439 are not worth reading at all. They're just wastes of time. 109 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,680 There are some books that I would recommend people read. 110 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,439 Robert Graysmith's book is something that I think everybody should read. 111 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,560 They just shouldn't read it to get factual information about 112 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,040 the case. It's one thing to make a factual error 113 00:06:35,079 --> 00:06:37,560 in a book. Everybody does, and I'm sure that my 114 00:06:37,639 --> 00:06:41,040 book has some errors in it. But it's another thing 115 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:48,600 to distort or selectively omit, or exaggerate or even fabricate. 116 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,600 And you'll see that in a lot of these books, 117 00:06:52,199 --> 00:06:54,519 and Robert Graysmith's book, I think it's a good idea 118 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,240 for everybody to read it to understand how the case 119 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,639 got the way that it was. There's a lot of 120 00:07:01,319 --> 00:07:04,920 misinformation in there. Now, granted he's coming at it from 121 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:09,519 a certain point of view, certain pet suspect as you 122 00:07:09,639 --> 00:07:12,839 might say, and the book is in service of that theory. 123 00:07:13,399 --> 00:07:15,639 But it's important to read because it is a time 124 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,639 capsule of what was going on and how things got 125 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,439 the way that they are. There are other books that 126 00:07:21,519 --> 00:07:26,360 are worth reading, some of them for specific information that's 127 00:07:26,399 --> 00:07:30,680 in them, or certain subjects that are explored, perhaps more 128 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:34,680 than in other books. I would say that this might 129 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:36,319 sound like a funny thing to say, but I would 130 00:07:36,319 --> 00:07:39,439 recommend reading books written about the Zodiac case written by 131 00:07:39,439 --> 00:07:45,680 people named Michael, and I don't say that as a 132 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,839 reference to myself, but Mike Cole had a book series 133 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,639 called Zodiac Revisited. Michael Kellerher had a book called This 134 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,920 is the Zodiac Speaking, which is worth reading for exploring 135 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,279 certain subjects. And then i'd also say that you might 136 00:08:00,319 --> 00:08:04,000 want to pick up micro Delli's book In the Shadow 137 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,319 of Mount Diablo. It explores certain subjects that other books 138 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,079 don't get into very much. And then there's also Jarrett 139 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:14,319 Kobik's book Motor Spirit and his other book that he 140 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,600 wrote after that, and of course that explores a theory. 141 00:08:17,639 --> 00:08:20,040 But I think that the first book is a good 142 00:08:20,279 --> 00:08:22,759 look at the case. There may be some other books 143 00:08:22,759 --> 00:08:24,800 that I'm not remembering off the top of my head 144 00:08:24,879 --> 00:08:27,040 right now, but those are the ones that I would 145 00:08:27,079 --> 00:08:31,920 suggest people read. When it comes to books like Most 146 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,799 Evil by Steve Odell or The Most Dangerous Animal of 147 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,679 All and things like that, I think you can skip those. 148 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,799 Speaker 4: You had mentioned on your website. And actually, you know what, 149 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:45,879 Before I get to that question, why don't you talk 150 00:08:45,919 --> 00:08:48,559 to us a little bit about your website, which is 151 00:08:48,639 --> 00:08:52,320 Zodiac killerfacts dot com. Tell us about why you decided 152 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:54,440 to start the website, and then I'll ask you my 153 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:55,600 question related to it. 154 00:08:56,399 --> 00:08:59,279 Speaker 5: We started the website back in two thousand and seven, 155 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,480 I believe, and it was basically an attempt to just 156 00:09:02,519 --> 00:09:05,480 get more information out there to the public, to explore 157 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:10,519 certain issues that perhaps get overlooked or under explored. There's 158 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:12,919 a document gallery on there where you can look at 159 00:09:12,919 --> 00:09:17,000 the police files, the FBI files, the zodiac letters, crime 160 00:09:17,039 --> 00:09:20,120 scene photos and things like that, and other official documents. 161 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:23,879 It's basically just an attempt to get information out to people. 162 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,279 And also as the years went by, it became a 163 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:32,399 place to post the critical examinations of theories and other 164 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:36,600 popular books besides Gracemiths. So it was an attempt basically 165 00:09:36,639 --> 00:09:39,600 to offer an alternative for people. 166 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 1: So is that generally well received by people that follow 167 00:09:44,799 --> 00:09:47,120 the case, because we both know this is a case 168 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:50,279 that engenders some really strong opinions. 169 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 5: Yeah, I can say it's well received by a lot 170 00:09:54,159 --> 00:09:57,200 of people. It has been over the years. It's usually 171 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:01,240 not well received by people whose books theories are debunked 172 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,360 on the website, and that's to be expected, but overall 173 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,279 over the years, god, it's been many years. Now that 174 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,639 the site's been up, the feedback is very positive. I 175 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,600 get a lot of very positive email from people who 176 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,360 say that the website has been useful to them. 177 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 4: One of the things that I liked most about the website, though, 178 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:25,159 is that you do state that you don't advocate for 179 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:29,840 any particular Zodiac suspect, and you actually said on there 180 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,039 something that I thought was very interesting. You said that 181 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,759 it's unlikely that any of the named suspects was actually 182 00:10:35,799 --> 00:10:40,919 the Zodiac killer. Do you have a sort of pet 183 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,080 suspect of your own or are you a very open 184 00:10:44,159 --> 00:10:46,759 minded on the subject and will continue to be open 185 00:10:46,759 --> 00:10:47,679 minded on the subject. 186 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't have any pet suspects, and the reason 187 00:10:51,519 --> 00:10:54,320 for that is is I don't think there's any suspect 188 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,960 where there's solid evidence to indicate they were the Zodiac 189 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,120 and if there was, I would be on board with that. 190 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,279 One thing that I try to point out whenever there's 191 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,240 a discussion about suspects, and it's important to remember that 192 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,120 this would be true even if I didn't exist. So 193 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:13,080 it's not an opinion. You could take the top ten 194 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:18,720 Zodiac suspects and instantly one thing. At least nine of 195 00:11:18,759 --> 00:11:22,120 them are not the Zodiac. So that's an important thing 196 00:11:22,159 --> 00:11:25,159 to keep in mind, because there's this idea that the 197 00:11:25,279 --> 00:11:30,679 Zodiac must be among the pool of named suspects, and 198 00:11:30,759 --> 00:11:33,399 I don't think that's true. I don't think the evidence 199 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,759 supports that. But if you take that one step further, 200 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,080 it's not just the nine. The odds are that all 201 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,960 ten of them are not the Zodiac, and then you 202 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,639 could take the next ten and you could still eliminate 203 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:49,799 nine of them immediately. Now which nine that's up for debate. 204 00:11:50,399 --> 00:11:53,320 But I personally don't believe the Zodiac is among the 205 00:11:53,399 --> 00:11:56,799 name suspects. I think he's more likely to turn out 206 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,159 to be what you might refer to as an unsub 207 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,000 unknown subject, someone who has not come to the attention 208 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:06,720 of law enforcement, and someone who is not on the 209 00:12:06,879 --> 00:12:10,639 suspect radar. Now I would love to be wrong about that. 210 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:13,960 I would love for anybody to prove that someone was 211 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,159 the Zodiac. I wouldn't care who it was at all, 212 00:12:16,759 --> 00:12:18,559 as long as they could prove it and the case 213 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:22,159 was solved, that's what we all want. So I think 214 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,120 it's important to remember that there's a lot of people 215 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:30,000 who have devoted their lives to pursuing their theories and suspects, 216 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,840 and I guess people that's they're entitled to do that. 217 00:12:34,639 --> 00:12:38,360 But just because someone has a suspect, and just because 218 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:42,440 a suspect has been named, doesn't mean that there's good 219 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,639 evidence against them. That doesn't mean that there's good reason 220 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:50,159 to suspect them. Often these theories fall apart under even 221 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,960 minimal scrutiny. And I'm sorry my cat's chiming in here 222 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,639 as well, but I think it's important to remember that 223 00:12:57,759 --> 00:13:00,200 nine of them are not the zodiac, and most like 224 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,200 the tenth isn't either, Because I don't think it's going 225 00:13:03,279 --> 00:13:06,200 to be that easy that you can just go look 226 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,440 through old phone books or look through old newspaper reports, 227 00:13:09,519 --> 00:13:12,679 or somehow just stumble across the identity of one of 228 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:16,399 the most elusive serial killers in history. Now, if someone 229 00:13:16,519 --> 00:13:19,799 does that, I'd be the first person to applaud them. 230 00:13:20,279 --> 00:13:25,279 Speaker 4: As you were putting together first the website zodiatkillerfacts dot 231 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,279 Com and then the book, talk to us a little 232 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:32,120 bit about how much access you were able to have 233 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,519 to the original case files and the evidence. 234 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 5: There are a lot of police reports, FBI files, and 235 00:13:39,879 --> 00:13:42,840 other official documents that have been available to the public 236 00:13:43,039 --> 00:13:46,519 for years now. Some of those have been posted online 237 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:49,440 by people like Tom Voyd at Zodiac killer dot com. 238 00:13:49,759 --> 00:13:52,759 Some have been obtained through the Freedom of Information Act. 239 00:13:53,399 --> 00:13:55,759 Some of them are things that just get shared by 240 00:13:55,799 --> 00:14:00,679 researchers and things like that. We're very lucky to have 241 00:14:00,799 --> 00:14:04,559 access to a lot of the files, but I should 242 00:14:04,639 --> 00:14:07,679 say that we don't have access to all the files. 243 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,480 There are some documents that some people have given me 244 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,399 over the years that I was asked not to share publicly, 245 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,759 although I would share them with other researchers. There are 246 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,720 things that you might be able to view but haven't 247 00:14:21,759 --> 00:14:25,080 been released because there's never been an official release of 248 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:29,159 these reports. These are things that have just surfaced over 249 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,960 the years from reporters or people involved in the case 250 00:14:33,039 --> 00:14:36,240 collecting them and then sharing them with researchers and other people. 251 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,000 But I was very fortunate that many years ago I 252 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:44,879 started collecting these files, and there's three ring binders on 253 00:14:44,919 --> 00:14:49,559 my shelf full of FBI files covering years decades. So 254 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,240 I was very lucky to have access to a lot. 255 00:14:52,679 --> 00:14:58,879 The documents relating to the first two Zodiac crimes are 256 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,320 fairly extended and SIV, although we don't have all of 257 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,200 them same thing with the Lake barry Essa attack. We 258 00:15:05,279 --> 00:15:08,559 have a lot of information from there, but not everything obviously. 259 00:15:09,039 --> 00:15:12,080 And then the one place where there's a void of 260 00:15:12,279 --> 00:15:15,799 information is with the San Francisco Police Department. A lot 261 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,559 of their files have just never surfaced. I was fortunate 262 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:24,039 to get access to some and other people doing research 263 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,559 into them for me at various law enforcement agencies when 264 00:15:27,559 --> 00:15:30,600 I had questions, but I was fortunate to have access 265 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:32,399 to quite a bit of information. 266 00:15:33,279 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: In the Colonial Parkway murders, we're constantly having this is 267 00:15:38,039 --> 00:15:40,919 an open case, which is now thirty eight years old. 268 00:15:41,159 --> 00:15:44,799 That phrase gets thrown back in our faces. I'm talking 269 00:15:44,799 --> 00:15:48,840 about the families now over and over again. Why are 270 00:15:48,919 --> 00:15:51,440 things different in a case like the Zodiac. 271 00:15:51,879 --> 00:15:54,679 Speaker 5: I think part of that is just because there's a 272 00:15:54,679 --> 00:15:57,480 lot more interest in it because it was such a 273 00:15:57,519 --> 00:16:01,559 public spectacle for so many years, and there were many 274 00:16:01,639 --> 00:16:06,080 more people involved behind the scenes who were collecting police reports, 275 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:11,080 people like Dave Peterson, reporter in Valleo, who when he 276 00:16:11,159 --> 00:16:13,960 passed away, a lot of the files that he had 277 00:16:14,159 --> 00:16:16,840 were given over to other people and there was a 278 00:16:16,879 --> 00:16:19,080 lot of good stuff in there. Those were things that 279 00:16:19,159 --> 00:16:23,200 he had accumulated over the years. Other people had gathered 280 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:27,799 these reports and made endless xerox copies of them over 281 00:16:27,799 --> 00:16:31,159 the years, and they were circulating. I think part of 282 00:16:31,159 --> 00:16:34,320 that is because maybe in the Colonial Parkway case, the 283 00:16:34,639 --> 00:16:38,159 cases are more guarded with this. Things were leaking over 284 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,759 the years, and people shared them with other people and 285 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,399 had boxes of them in their closet or whatever, and 286 00:16:44,399 --> 00:16:47,200 when various researchers or people would come around, they would 287 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:50,639 make copies for them. And back in the nineties, a 288 00:16:50,679 --> 00:16:53,080 lot of us used to share information with each other 289 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,399 if we got a report with xerox it and send 290 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,159 it to somebody else and stuff, And that may just 291 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,720 be the reason. I'm sure that law enforcement never wanted 292 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,519 those documents to be made public, and I have over 293 00:17:05,559 --> 00:17:08,200 the years, and I know other researchers have too been 294 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,359 given a file and told please don't share this publicly, 295 00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:13,519 and those kinds of things, and you try to honor 296 00:17:13,559 --> 00:17:18,240 those requests. And the Colonial Parkway case, it's another situation 297 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:23,079 like Zodiac, where there's different jurisdictions involved, different law enforcement 298 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,720 agencies that all have their own sort of rules or 299 00:17:25,759 --> 00:17:28,480 guidelines about sharing those things. But generally, yeah, in an 300 00:17:28,519 --> 00:17:32,240 open case, you don't want those files to be circulating. 301 00:17:32,799 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: Are there fakes in the middle of these documents quietly 302 00:17:36,799 --> 00:17:40,359 making their way from one research or to another. Do 303 00:17:40,519 --> 00:17:41,599 fakes get mixed in? 304 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 5: I don't think there's been a lot of that. What 305 00:17:44,559 --> 00:17:48,200 there has been though, over the years, are some documents 306 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,400 that were written by various people that are mistaken for 307 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,359 official documents when they're just a case summary or somebody's 308 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,720 notes or whatever. But no, I think for the most 309 00:17:58,799 --> 00:18:02,279 part what has been and circulating has been authentic, at 310 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:03,680 least as far as I can tell. 311 00:18:04,319 --> 00:18:08,759 Speaker 4: That actually leads me to an interesting question about the ciphers. 312 00:18:09,559 --> 00:18:12,440 For anybody who may be living under a rock and 313 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,759 net know anything about the Zodiac case. The Zodiac, of 314 00:18:15,799 --> 00:18:19,559 course has those hallmarks that are make him stand alone 315 00:18:19,599 --> 00:18:23,039 in that really crowded arena of American serial killers, and 316 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,720 the ciphers and the cryptography are, of course two of 317 00:18:26,759 --> 00:18:30,359 the big things. There are people every year, it feels 318 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,319 like that, come out and say I've solved one of 319 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,720 the unsolvable Zodiac ciphers. Here it is, here's the message. 320 00:18:36,799 --> 00:18:39,519 It reveals this person and this person have all the 321 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:45,000 Zodiac ciphers actually been solved. If they haven't been, do 322 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,640 you think they will be and are there any sort 323 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,799 of like mistaken ciphers that are rolling around in the 324 00:18:50,799 --> 00:18:52,160 public consciousness right now? 325 00:18:52,599 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 5: Forgive me, but I'd have to correct you there. It's 326 00:18:54,519 --> 00:18:57,160 not that this happens every year. It happens every day. 327 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,920 Oh wow, Okay, people saw the Zodiac ciphers every day, 328 00:19:02,039 --> 00:19:04,680 at least according to the email inbox that I have. 329 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:10,039 Oh my gosh, it's a public challenge. Zodiac obviously felt 330 00:19:10,039 --> 00:19:12,759 that way back in the sixties when he sent these 331 00:19:12,759 --> 00:19:16,240 out and in the early seventies. I think it was 332 00:19:16,279 --> 00:19:19,039 always part of his plan that he wanted people looking 333 00:19:19,079 --> 00:19:23,039 at this. He wanted that attention. The first cipher was 334 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:27,759 solved almost immediately back in nineteen sixty nine. The second cipher, 335 00:19:27,799 --> 00:19:30,440 which is referred to as the Z three point forty, 336 00:19:30,799 --> 00:19:35,200 was not solved until December twenty twenty. Wow. And it 337 00:19:35,279 --> 00:19:39,559 was solved by a trio of computer experts and mathematicians 338 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:44,000 and cryptographers who devoted a tremendous amount of energy to 339 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:50,400 developing software to attack the Zodiac cipher, and they were successful. 340 00:19:50,519 --> 00:19:53,799 It was stunning what they were able to achieve. There 341 00:19:53,839 --> 00:19:57,680 are two other remaining ciphers, what's the Z thirteen and 342 00:19:57,759 --> 00:20:01,839 the Z thirty two, which remain on salved. People think 343 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,279 they've solved them. Not uncommon for me to get email 344 00:20:05,319 --> 00:20:08,119 and from someone who says, I've solved the cipher. Here's 345 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:12,279 the solution, and it's always some sort of garbled or 346 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:17,240 forced nonsense. And I'm not knocking them for trying, but 347 00:20:17,319 --> 00:20:20,200 I just think it's people are way too quick to 348 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,240 believe that they have solved it. David Ranchak, who is 349 00:20:24,279 --> 00:20:26,799 one of the people who help solve the Z three 350 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,759 forty and pointed out on several occasions that the remaining 351 00:20:30,839 --> 00:20:34,880 ciphers are not long ciphers. The first one was four 352 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,200 hundred and eight symbols, the second one was three hundred 353 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,400 and forty. Then you drop down to thirteen and thirty two, 354 00:20:41,039 --> 00:20:44,559 and because of that, it drastically diminishes your ability to 355 00:20:44,799 --> 00:20:51,240 recognize patterns right, and that's a main component of deciphering. 356 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,039 As Dave has pointed out, many people come up with 357 00:20:54,079 --> 00:20:57,359 solutions that seem like they could be correct, but there's 358 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,519 no way to determine that with any certainty because the 359 00:21:00,559 --> 00:21:05,000 cipher is so short, and so many other solutions could 360 00:21:05,039 --> 00:21:08,960 work just as well as any other proposed solution. So 361 00:21:09,559 --> 00:21:12,799 I don't think that those ciphers have been solved. Recently, 362 00:21:12,839 --> 00:21:15,960 there have been some more high profile claims to have 363 00:21:16,039 --> 00:21:19,519 solved some of those ciphers. I just don't see anything 364 00:21:19,599 --> 00:21:23,559 to those solutions. And more importantly, people like David Ranchak, 365 00:21:23,799 --> 00:21:27,599 who once you've solved the cipher a zodiac cipher, I 366 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:29,920 think you have a lot of authority on that issue. 367 00:21:30,279 --> 00:21:33,240 And he's pointed out that he doesn't believe that these 368 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:37,519 proposed solutions are correct either. So I tend to go 369 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,160 with his thinking on that, especially because I am not 370 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:45,440 a cryptographer and I can understand a lot of these things, 371 00:21:45,559 --> 00:21:49,119 especially as when I first started talking to David Ranchak 372 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:53,720 about these things. He has an amazing ability to explain 373 00:21:53,839 --> 00:21:56,680 these things in ways that make sense to people like me. 374 00:21:57,279 --> 00:22:00,839 Otherwise it just sounds like gibberish people say saying all 375 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:05,440 these complex computations and things. I defer to him on 376 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,640 that a lot, And if he were to say that 377 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,759 he thought one of these solutions was correct, I would 378 00:22:10,759 --> 00:22:12,519 certainly be open to that. 379 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 1: You're listening to mind over Murder. We'll be right back 380 00:22:16,559 --> 00:22:27,039 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 381 00:22:27,079 --> 00:22:32,240 mindover Murder. I was hopeful back in December twenty twenty 382 00:22:32,279 --> 00:22:35,039 that the technique that was used to solve the z 383 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:40,960 three forty cipher would lend itself to these other shorter ciphers. 384 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,400 But you're saying, actually, because there are so many fewer characters, 385 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,880 that actually presents even more of a problem. 386 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,039 Speaker 5: Oh yeah. When the first cipher was received in nineteen 387 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:55,519 sixty nine, a teacher and his wife, Donald and Betty Harden, 388 00:22:56,759 --> 00:23:00,839 they attacked that cipher using basic psychology. Like they thought 389 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,480 that the killer would his ego would mean that he 390 00:23:03,519 --> 00:23:07,039 would start off with the word I in the cipher. 391 00:23:07,279 --> 00:23:10,559 They thought that he would talk about killing, and therefore 392 00:23:10,599 --> 00:23:15,519 they looked for repeated pairs of symbols or combinations of 393 00:23:15,559 --> 00:23:19,079 symbols that could represent the double letter L in the 394 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,519 word kill. That was successful in part because they had 395 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,319 so much to work with, the same thing with the 396 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:29,160 three forty. Now with the three forty people it looked 397 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,480 like the four to eight seemed to be constructed in 398 00:23:32,519 --> 00:23:35,440 the same way. So a lot of people thought that 399 00:23:35,519 --> 00:23:37,559 the same method could be used, that it was a 400 00:23:37,599 --> 00:23:42,680 substitution cipher. It was more complicated than that. The Zodiac 401 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,559 had split this message into three parts, I believe, And 402 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:52,240 then they were rearranged and the text went diagonally through. 403 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,319 The symbols didn't go from left or they went diagonally, 404 00:23:56,039 --> 00:23:58,519 and they would only match up when they were moved 405 00:23:58,519 --> 00:24:01,920 into this configure aation. And again I'm not the best 406 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,359 person to explain all that, but when the Z three 407 00:24:05,519 --> 00:24:08,359 forty was solved, it was solved because they developed this 408 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:13,839 complex attack strategy and it helped them decipher the message 409 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,079 and find these phrases which help them find how the 410 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:21,759 cipher was constructed. With the Z thirteen, it's not likely 411 00:24:21,799 --> 00:24:23,920 that the same method can be used because it's a 412 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:28,640 completely different kind of cipher. It's only thirteen symbols, same 413 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,839 thing with the thirty two. So there was a lot 414 00:24:31,839 --> 00:24:35,079 of optimism in twenty twenty that the same methods could 415 00:24:35,079 --> 00:24:38,039 be used, but they don't appear to have led to 416 00:24:38,079 --> 00:24:41,240 the solutions. And I don't think that those ciphers will 417 00:24:41,279 --> 00:24:44,640 be solved using a similar strategy. I think they would 418 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:46,400 require something different. 419 00:24:47,319 --> 00:24:50,279 Speaker 1: What do you think is in this for the Zodiac, 420 00:24:50,319 --> 00:24:54,319 particularly the cipher's part of it. I get the menacing 421 00:24:54,720 --> 00:25:00,440 bragging letters taking credit, and I get that, I guess 422 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:05,319 from an ego perspective, just how murky the ciphers are. 423 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,880 What do you think is in that for him? 424 00:25:08,279 --> 00:25:12,839 Speaker 5: I think that he likes knowing that he forces people 425 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,400 to reckon with his ciphers. It's a form of busy 426 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:21,000 work might but it's a demonstration of power. All he 427 00:25:21,079 --> 00:25:23,880 has to do is send a cipher and say this 428 00:25:24,079 --> 00:25:26,119 will lead to my identity, or this will help you 429 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,799 solve the case or whatever, and he knows that people 430 00:25:28,799 --> 00:25:31,519 are going to jump into that and pour their attention 431 00:25:31,599 --> 00:25:34,640 into that. I think he got off on the attention 432 00:25:34,799 --> 00:25:38,880 part and knowing that he was so powerful that they 433 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,799 were essentially forced to take him seriously. But I think 434 00:25:42,839 --> 00:25:45,400 at the same time too, it's part of his desire 435 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,079 to be viewed as a criminal genius, which is not 436 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,839 a theory about him that I subscribe to. I don't 437 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,640 think that he was a criminal genius, but I think 438 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,960 that he wanted to be seen as one, and this 439 00:25:57,039 --> 00:26:00,480 sort of game playing was part of that. He pointed 440 00:26:00,519 --> 00:26:03,200 out over the years that when he sent the first cipher, 441 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,839 he obviously he sent three different parts of it to 442 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:11,079 three different newspapers, demanded that they published this cipher and 443 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,960 threatened to kill if he didn't. If they didn't meet 444 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:18,359 his demands, and that cipher was solved very quickly, and 445 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,599 I often believe that he was upset that it was 446 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,039 solved so quickly. So therefore, when he made the next one, 447 00:26:25,079 --> 00:26:28,519 the z three forty, he made it more difficult because 448 00:26:28,559 --> 00:26:30,839 he was hoping to drag it out and make it 449 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,720 more more difficult for people they have to spend more 450 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,640 time on it. But he made it too difficult, and 451 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,000 because of that, it went unsolved for fifty years. And 452 00:26:40,039 --> 00:26:43,039 I don't think that was ever his intention, especially because 453 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,880 inside the cipher, the cipher came with a note that said, 454 00:26:47,039 --> 00:26:48,880 I thought you'd need a good laugh before you get 455 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:50,640 the bad news. You won't get the news for a 456 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,519 while yet, And inside the cipher he had said that 457 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,680 wasn't me on that TV show, which was a direct 458 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,160 reference to a Zodiac imposter who had called into a 459 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:06,039 local Bay area talk show and engaged the host and attorney, 460 00:27:06,079 --> 00:27:10,400 Melvin Belli, in a long protracted conversation and got a 461 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,960 lot of media attention. And the Zodiac apparently, as some 462 00:27:15,039 --> 00:27:18,079 of your listeners may know, the Zodiac was often concerned 463 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:22,000 with the controlling the narrative of his case. He would 464 00:27:22,039 --> 00:27:26,279 correct people or add additional facts to things, to clarify things. 465 00:27:26,799 --> 00:27:30,960 But in this case, he apparently was he had heard 466 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,000 about what happened, or maybe he even watched the show himself, 467 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,200 and he decided to put his denial inside the cipher. 468 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,400 And I'm sure he thought that it would have been 469 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,000 solved in a timely fashion and therefore people would see 470 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:48,359 this revelation, which at the time was timely and relevant. 471 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,759 But because he made the cipher so difficult, it wasn't 472 00:27:52,799 --> 00:27:56,400 solved for fifty years, And so fifty years later we 473 00:27:56,519 --> 00:27:58,799 get this message from him that had been hidden all 474 00:27:58,799 --> 00:28:01,759 this time, that wasn't me on the TV show. It's 475 00:28:01,799 --> 00:28:04,599 clear that he wanted people to learn these things, that 476 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,720 he wanted them to solve the cipher and get that information. 477 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,279 I just don't think he ever planned on it taking 478 00:28:11,319 --> 00:28:15,480 fifty years. And when the other two ciphers showed up, 479 00:28:15,519 --> 00:28:19,359 we don't know what's in them. One people think is 480 00:28:20,319 --> 00:28:22,680 my name is and then there's a collection of symbols. 481 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,599 The other one was a cipher and a map that 482 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,400 he said would help find people find a buried bomb. 483 00:28:30,039 --> 00:28:33,559 So I don't know whether or not those ciphers actually 484 00:28:33,599 --> 00:28:37,119 contain the information that he said they would. We do 485 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,759 know that when he wrote his first cipher and letters, 486 00:28:39,799 --> 00:28:42,599 he said that his identity was in them, and that 487 00:28:42,839 --> 00:28:45,359 did not appear to be the case. So we don't 488 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,279 know if he was toying with people or if he 489 00:28:47,359 --> 00:28:49,799 put that in there some other way. But I don't 490 00:28:49,799 --> 00:28:52,400 think it's likely that it would be as easy as 491 00:28:52,559 --> 00:28:55,480 just solve this cipher and here's my name. I think 492 00:28:55,519 --> 00:28:59,240 he was probably toying with people, so we may not 493 00:28:59,359 --> 00:29:01,799 ever know whether or not he was telling the truth 494 00:29:01,839 --> 00:29:04,079 about those last two ciphers. 495 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 4: I wonder for somebody who apparently does have quite a 496 00:29:08,599 --> 00:29:12,720 large ego and who relishes the media attention and everything. 497 00:29:13,279 --> 00:29:16,519 I wonder if at some point or another Zodiac ever 498 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,440 considered confessing, like on his deathbed, I am the Zodiac, 499 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,720 it was me. Have you been made aware? Have there 500 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,200 ever been deathbed confessions from somebody who claimed to be 501 00:29:26,279 --> 00:29:26,920 the zodiac? 502 00:29:27,599 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 5: I've heard stories over the years about some people. I 503 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:36,319 think there's probably not much to that deathbed confession from somebody. 504 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,559 If law enforcement heard about that, they'd be they'd probably say, 505 00:29:40,599 --> 00:29:42,960 that's great, where's the proof. A lot of people can 506 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:48,920 make claims. Dennis Rader, the BTK strangler who resurfaced after 507 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,880 what twenty five years of silence. Yes, in the early 508 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:57,880 two thousands. According to some sources, he had kept mementos 509 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,480 and things to remind him of his crime. He had 510 00:30:00,519 --> 00:30:02,799 what he called Heidi holes in his house where he 511 00:30:03,039 --> 00:30:06,400 just stashed things like that, if I remember correctly. According 512 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,119 to at least one source, he was at the time 513 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,599 that he had resurfaced before he was captured. He was 514 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,279 apparently a massing collection of things for his family to 515 00:30:17,279 --> 00:30:20,039 find after he died. He didn't want to face the 516 00:30:20,079 --> 00:30:24,319 consequences of being identified while he was alive, but a 517 00:30:24,359 --> 00:30:28,440 part of him didn't want it to go unnoticed or unrecognized, 518 00:30:29,119 --> 00:30:31,319 and so it appeared that he was at least at 519 00:30:31,359 --> 00:30:34,720 one point planning to have his family discover this horrible 520 00:30:34,759 --> 00:30:38,839 secret after he was gone. Then his plans backfired and 521 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,519 he was caught, and of course his family disowned him, 522 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,039 which is probably the kind of thing that he was 523 00:30:45,079 --> 00:30:49,039 trying to avoid. So whether or not the Zodiac did 524 00:30:49,079 --> 00:30:52,160 anything similar, I don't know. There are times when I 525 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,359 think he must have left something behind for people to find. 526 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,720 There's still a piece of the cab driver's shirt missing, 527 00:30:58,839 --> 00:31:02,400 But I don't know. Possible that he died unexpectedly and 528 00:31:02,519 --> 00:31:06,200 was never able to carry out his plans. It's possible 529 00:31:06,279 --> 00:31:09,799 that he suffered from dementia and forgot that he was 530 00:31:09,839 --> 00:31:13,319 the Zodiac. It's possible he had no intention of ever 531 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,839 letting anybody know and taking the secret to his grave 532 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,279 with him. I don't know. I don't think I know 533 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,720 the Zodiac well enough to say with any authority what 534 00:31:21,839 --> 00:31:24,960 he would or would not do. But I sure hope 535 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,039 that he would leave something behind for those of us. 536 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,680 In some ways. It may be something as simple as 537 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,240 my father died, my uncle died, somebody in my family died, 538 00:31:34,279 --> 00:31:37,119 and they left this weird box of stuff in the garage. 539 00:31:37,559 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: I was thinking the same thing. I'm looking for a 540 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,599 box with information in it that would different. 541 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 5: There might be Zodiac letters in there. Dennis Rader apparently 542 00:31:47,119 --> 00:31:49,920 kept some copies of things that he had written when 543 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,799 he was active. There might be the costume that the 544 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:54,559 Zodiac wore at Lake Bury Essa. 545 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've wondered that too. 546 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:58,119 Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. 547 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,559 Speaker 1: In the last minute or two, you've referred to him 548 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:06,640 in the past tense. Are you thinking that he's dead 549 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:07,119 by now? 550 00:32:08,279 --> 00:32:11,119 Speaker 5: Part of me, the realistic part of me, wants to 551 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:15,200 say that's a likely outcome that he may be dead already. 552 00:32:15,759 --> 00:32:18,240 The optimistic part of me hopes that he's still alive 553 00:32:18,279 --> 00:32:22,119 so he can still be identified, captured, and punished, something 554 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:27,200 like the Golden State Killer case. That was incredibly satisfying 555 00:32:27,279 --> 00:32:31,440 seeing him in courts and being reduced to the small, 556 00:32:31,599 --> 00:32:34,640 petty little man that he was, but just totally erased 557 00:32:34,839 --> 00:32:40,599 his glamorous image as this powerful, elusive serial killer. Now 558 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,000 he's just this pathetic guy sitting in a wheelchair in court. 559 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,319 I would love to see the Zodiac cut down to 560 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,240 size like that. I don't know that it'll ever happen. 561 00:32:50,119 --> 00:32:54,160 As time goes by, it becomes increasingly unlikely that he's 562 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,720 still alive, But you never know. There are people in 563 00:32:57,759 --> 00:33:03,279 their eighties who are more agile than I am. Would 564 00:33:03,759 --> 00:33:09,000 Dick van Dyke turned one hundred this week and he 565 00:33:09,079 --> 00:33:12,000 still dances. So it all depends on what kind of 566 00:33:12,039 --> 00:33:14,960 person the Zodiac was, what his health was like, what 567 00:33:15,079 --> 00:33:18,599 his family life was like, if he's still alive and 568 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:20,960 people are tending to him and taking care of him, 569 00:33:21,039 --> 00:33:24,519 or if he's still active and moving around and living 570 00:33:24,559 --> 00:33:27,279 a full life. I'm always asked, do you think the 571 00:33:27,319 --> 00:33:30,200 case will ever be solved, and I have to be honest, 572 00:33:30,319 --> 00:33:32,720 there's the part of me that wants it to be solved. 573 00:33:32,839 --> 00:33:36,000 I try to be optimistic about that, but I don't know. 574 00:33:36,079 --> 00:33:38,880 I don't know if he's still alive. People will often 575 00:33:39,039 --> 00:33:42,119 say things like when the Zodiac movie came out in 576 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,480 two thousand and seven, that the Zodiac must be dead 577 00:33:45,519 --> 00:33:47,680 or in prison because we haven't heard from him. And 578 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,480 he would definitely have said something when this movie came out, 579 00:33:50,599 --> 00:33:53,200 or when this happened, or when DNA came out or whatever. 580 00:33:53,799 --> 00:33:57,319 If the Zodiac is smart, he wouldn't do that for 581 00:33:57,359 --> 00:34:01,680 several reasons. He may have watched Dennis Rader be captured 582 00:34:01,799 --> 00:34:04,960 because he was dumb enough for your listeners who don't know. 583 00:34:05,559 --> 00:34:09,239 He resurfaced and he was communicating and everything, and then 584 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,880 he asked the investigators, if I send you a floppy disk, 585 00:34:13,119 --> 00:34:17,920 can you trace it? Yeah, And the detectives were like, no, 586 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,760 of course not, they send that disc. Then he sent 587 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,679 the disk and they were immediately able to track it 588 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:31,639 to him within seconds of searching on the Internet. Then, 589 00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:35,440 of course, when he was confronted and being interrogated, there 590 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,760 was one point where he I just saw the video 591 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:39,840 the other day where he's like tapping his hand on 592 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,400 the desk, on this plastic bag with the disc in it, 593 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:48,760 and he says, why did you lie to me? And 594 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:53,440 Ken Landweer, just who had been pursuing him for years, 595 00:34:53,519 --> 00:34:57,840 just said bluntly, because I was trying to catch you. Yeah, moron, 596 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:00,760 of course I lied. You would have lied to you 597 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,559 over and over again to catch you. But it tells 598 00:35:03,559 --> 00:35:07,159 you something about what Dennis Raider's brain is like that 599 00:35:07,519 --> 00:35:11,800 he's offended that somebody lied. You're a murderer, and you're 600 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:13,000 upset somewhere wide. 601 00:35:13,199 --> 00:35:16,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, the cops are not being honorable. 602 00:35:16,599 --> 00:35:19,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, And so when it comes to stuff like that, 603 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,320 the Zodiac may have been watching him be like, that's 604 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,000 not going to happen to me. With the advance in 605 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:30,519 forensic science, I wouldn't trust anybody's effort to avoid detection 606 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,320 by mailing anything or doing anything like that. And it's 607 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,719 probably also important to note that the Zodiac has been 608 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:42,079 silent for decades. Yes that void. People have created their 609 00:35:42,079 --> 00:35:45,920 own explanations and their own theories about what happened to him, 610 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,320 and one of those theories is that he was Arthur 611 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,320 Lee Allen, the prime suspect in the Zodiac. 612 00:35:51,519 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 1: That's the name we hear them most often. 613 00:35:54,119 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, But if the Zodiac were to resurface today 614 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,320 or at any time over the years, it would immediately 615 00:36:01,559 --> 00:36:05,719 exclude every suspect who's dead, including Arthur Lee Allen. So 616 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:10,159 right now people are looking for the zodiac in all 617 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,639 the wrong places. For the most part, they're nowhere near him, 618 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,159 it appears, But as soon as he resurfaced, it would 619 00:36:17,199 --> 00:36:20,880 redirect all of that attention into finding him. So I 620 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:25,159 think if he is alive, he's probably smart enough to say, 621 00:36:25,559 --> 00:36:27,480 I'm going to let them think it's Arthur Lee Allen. 622 00:36:27,519 --> 00:36:29,400 I'm going to let them think it's somebody else or 623 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,599 their dad or whoever else is the suspect de jure 624 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:37,239 right now. But I'm not going to risk my freedom 625 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,719 by resurfacing and giving them more evidence that could help 626 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:42,119 catch me. 627 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,519 Speaker 1: Let's talk about Arthur Lee Allen for a minute. A 628 00:36:45,639 --> 00:36:49,960 number of our friends who follow this case and are 629 00:36:50,039 --> 00:36:52,960 very interested, A lot of them are in shall we say, 630 00:36:53,119 --> 00:36:56,599 Club Arthur Lee Allen. Why do you think that is? 631 00:36:57,599 --> 00:37:00,559 Speaker 5: I think because he's the most popular suspect that in 632 00:37:00,599 --> 00:37:05,000 the media. Robert Graysmith's first book focused on him, Although 633 00:37:05,079 --> 00:37:08,679 under a pseudonym Bob Hall Star, and then his follow up, 634 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,760 Zodiac Unmasked, was all about exposing Alan as the Zodiac. 635 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,440 There are a lot of other people with their own 636 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,239 theories about Arthur Lee Allen, and I think he fits 637 00:37:19,679 --> 00:37:23,199 a cutout an idea of what people think the Zodiac 638 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:27,440 should be. Now, having looked at the evidence over the years, 639 00:37:27,559 --> 00:37:30,360 I'm not convinced that Arthur Lee Allen is the Zodiac, 640 00:37:30,599 --> 00:37:33,880 although I would be thrilled if somebody proved that he was, 641 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,719 because again, that would mean that the case had been solved. 642 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,239 But I think he fits a lot of parameters that 643 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:44,320 people expect. He was a child molester, so that obviously 644 00:37:44,519 --> 00:37:47,840 gives him some sort of reason behind his disturbance, maybe 645 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,880 for his acting out against couples because he wasn't capable 646 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,400 of being in a relationship with a woman, or whatever 647 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,800 those kinds of theories that have been out there. He 648 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,199 was ambidextrous, which a lot of people like to glom 649 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,159 on too, because they say that explains why the handwriting 650 00:38:02,199 --> 00:38:06,039 experts excluded him. He lived near the crime scenes, he 651 00:38:06,079 --> 00:38:10,320 had a Zodiac watch, He made statements to people that 652 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,239 were suspicious, so he falls into a lot of categories 653 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:18,639 that people think fit neatly into. There's idea of zodiac, 654 00:38:19,119 --> 00:38:21,360 and I think that's one of the reasons that he's 655 00:38:21,519 --> 00:38:25,400 so attractive to people. Also, I think it's important to 656 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:27,480 note that a lot of people who think that Arthur 657 00:38:27,559 --> 00:38:31,280 Lee Allen was the Zodiac, their opinions are based on 658 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:35,719 a lot of misinformation about him. If you look at 659 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,360 what some random person saying about Arthur Lee Allen, or 660 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,519 even if you look at what Robert Graysmith is saying, 661 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,239 it can look like, Wow, it must be him, because 662 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,360 look at all this information, look at all these bullet 663 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,320 points that make him look guilty or whatever. But when 664 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,519 you start looking a little more closely, a lot of 665 00:38:52,559 --> 00:38:56,159 those things fall apart under scrutiny. They're not as potent 666 00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,199 as they may seem. So I'm not one of those 667 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:03,119 people who believes that there's a solid case against him. 668 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,039 Even in the situation where he was identified by a 669 00:39:06,119 --> 00:39:09,679 surviving victim. The story that we were told was that 670 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,880 Michael Majeaux, who survived the shooting at Blue Rock Springs Park, 671 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,159 he was shown a photo lineup that included Alan, and 672 00:39:16,199 --> 00:39:18,719 he said pointed to Alan's picture and said, that's him, 673 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:20,800 that's the man that shot me. And that was the 674 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,079 way that story was told for a long time. But 675 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,599 after a couple of years of pestering people at the 676 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,719 Vallejo Police Department, I was actually to get a hold 677 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:35,360 some information that expanded on that, which was that he 678 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:37,480 pointed to the picture and said that's him, that's the 679 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:39,880 man that shot me. And they said, are you sure, 680 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,920 and he said, yes, he had a face like this guy. 681 00:39:43,079 --> 00:39:46,360 And he pointed to a different person in the lineup. Wow, 682 00:39:46,679 --> 00:39:49,000 he had a round face like this guy. And then 683 00:39:49,039 --> 00:39:51,159 they said, on a scale of one to ten, how 684 00:39:51,199 --> 00:39:53,119 sure are you? And I think he said a seven 685 00:39:53,199 --> 00:39:57,719 or eight or something like that. That's not a positive identification. 686 00:39:58,159 --> 00:40:00,719 And I've joked over the years that what he was 687 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,639 essentially saying was, yeah, Arthur Lee Allen was the person 688 00:40:03,639 --> 00:40:05,719 who did it, but he was wearing someone else's face 689 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:11,480 at the time. Gets to the confusion of what you 690 00:40:11,519 --> 00:40:13,039 just said. You said it was him, but then you 691 00:40:13,079 --> 00:40:15,880 pointed to somebody else. And there's also the fact that 692 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,239 the description that Michael Mijaud gave of the killer at 693 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,880 that time in nineteen sixty nine did not match the 694 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,880 way Alan looked in nineteen sixty nine. Maybe he was 695 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,000 the person who shot Michael Migaux and these they're just 696 00:40:28,159 --> 00:40:31,239 factors in all of that. But it's important to remember 697 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,119 when we're looking at the case against Alan that a 698 00:40:34,159 --> 00:40:36,519 lot of these things that people bring up are not 699 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,079 quite as cut and dried as they've seen. 700 00:40:41,559 --> 00:40:44,559 Speaker 1: Join us again next time as we continue our conversation 701 00:40:45,119 --> 00:40:49,199 with author Michael Butterfield and his new book The Zodiac Killer, 702 00:40:49,599 --> 00:40:54,360 The Story of America's most Elusive murderer. He discusses his 703 00:40:54,519 --> 00:40:58,880 views on the Zodiac, how the Zodiac case might feel 704 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:03,760 similar to the Colonial Parkway murders, and other fascinating issues. 705 00:41:04,679 --> 00:41:07,280 We'll look forward to seeing you next time on mind 706 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:08,000 Over Murder. 707 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,400 Speaker 2: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 708 00:41:21,519 --> 00:41:22,960 Another Dog Productions. 709 00:41:23,519 --> 00:41:26,840 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 710 00:41:27,199 --> 00:41:29,639 Speaker 2: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 711 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,320 Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 712 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,760 Speaker 2: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 713 00:41:37,519 --> 00:41:40,719 Speaker 1: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 714 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:43,480 Speaker 2: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 715 00:41:43,559 --> 00:41:45,440 murders on Facebook. 716 00:41:45,159 --> 00:41:48,199 Speaker 1: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 717 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:49,840 Bill Thomas five six. 718 00:41:50,320 --> 00:42:11,360 Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder Aunt 719 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:19,719 Speaker 4: Cont.