WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.720 Those who are familiar with Tirvana, they immediately go to 2 00:00:03.040 --> 00:00:05.919 never Mind. It's the go to. I think euro is 3 00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:09.080 the go to. It speaks about a band and about 4 00:00:09.160 --> 00:00:14.400 a songwriter who inspired a generation was obviously going through turmoil, 5 00:00:14.599 --> 00:00:18.000 and you can hear it. We're totally booked rock and roll. 6 00:00:19.760 --> 00:00:21.879 I mean, I'll leave you. You're reading little Hands this. 7 00:00:21.960 --> 00:00:25.399 It's time to rock and roll, Rock, roll up, I 8 00:00:25.559 --> 00:00:26.480 totally booked. 9 00:00:31.160 --> 00:00:34.920 Welcome back to Booked on Rock conversations with authors, musicians 10 00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:38.759 and insiders revealing the stories behind classic rock's greatest songs, 11 00:00:38.799 --> 00:00:42.280 albums and artists. I'm Eric Senich. Before we get started, 12 00:00:42.359 --> 00:00:45.479 listeners and viewers get fifteen percent off classic rock merchandise 13 00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:47.719 at old glory dot com. Just use the code Booked 14 00:00:47.719 --> 00:00:51.159 on Rock like a Nirvana Established nineteen eighty eight T 15 00:00:51.280 --> 00:00:54.920 shirt and a Nirvana guitar zip black hoodie that's available 16 00:00:54.960 --> 00:00:57.200 right now. The link is in the show notes, Or 17 00:00:57.520 --> 00:01:00.159 go to Booked on Rock dot com and click on 18 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:04.879 my deals. And we are talking Nirvana today. Robert Boyd 19 00:01:04.959 --> 00:01:07.760 returns to the podcast. His latest book is titled in 20 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:11.959 Utero and the Final Days of Nirvana. One year after 21 00:01:12.040 --> 00:01:15.239 Nevermind transformed Nirvana into the biggest band in the world. 22 00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:19.040 The group's future was anything but certain, as internal tensions 23 00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:22.760 and relentless media scrutiny mounted. The band travel to rural 24 00:01:23.079 --> 00:01:26.280 Minnesota in early nineteen ninety three to record in Utero 25 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:30.400 with producer Steve Albini. The result was a raw, uncompromising 26 00:01:30.439 --> 00:01:34.280 album that would become Nirvana's final studio release, capturing a 27 00:01:34.280 --> 00:01:36.719 band at both the height of its creative powers and 28 00:01:36.760 --> 00:01:39.920 the edge of its breaking point. That story is explored 29 00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:42.640 in Last Stand. Robert welcome back to the podcast. 30 00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:44.840 Good to see again, he was, well, thanks for having 31 00:01:44.840 --> 00:01:45.200 me back. 32 00:01:45.760 --> 00:01:48.400 Well, reading the prologue, I got the sense that this 33 00:01:48.480 --> 00:01:50.480 is not just a book about an album. It's about 34 00:01:50.519 --> 00:01:54.280 a band that's trying to reclaim its identity. Would you 35 00:01:54.319 --> 00:01:58.480 say in Utero was Nirvana's attempt to redefine themselves or 36 00:01:58.519 --> 00:02:00.400 do you think they saw it as maybe a last 37 00:02:00.439 --> 00:02:03.400 opportunity and maybe knew that the end of the band 38 00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:05.280 could be near both. 39 00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:09.919 Never mind blew the band, Uh blew the band away, 40 00:02:09.960 --> 00:02:14.240 Blue blew their fans away, and it was not an 41 00:02:14.280 --> 00:02:21.599 album that they felt represented them. So the band decided 42 00:02:21.599 --> 00:02:25.439 to go back to Basics, which was their first release 43 00:02:25.520 --> 00:02:32.039 Bleach and their compilation album Incesticide, and focused on their 44 00:02:33.159 --> 00:02:39.520 original goals as a band. Not overproduced albums, focus on 45 00:02:39.560 --> 00:02:42.159 the material and the meaning of the material, and that's 46 00:02:42.199 --> 00:02:46.800 really what in Utero became. Unfortunately, the drama surrounding the 47 00:02:46.840 --> 00:02:51.639 band at the time, both in and out of the band, 48 00:02:52.360 --> 00:02:56.240 kind of took center stage, and unfortunately at the time 49 00:02:58.120 --> 00:02:59.960 the album kind of took a bat seat. 50 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:03.080 As I read that opening chapter, which is titled Before 51 00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:05.800 the Storm, it struck me that almost every decision Nirvana 52 00:03:05.879 --> 00:03:10.360 made before never Mind, the punk influences, the DIY mindset, 53 00:03:10.639 --> 00:03:15.199 even the relentless touring, seemed all rooted in authenticity. Once 54 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:20.039 never Mind became a phenomenon, was in Utero essentially Kurt 55 00:03:20.120 --> 00:03:23.360 Cobain's attempt to reclaim that authenticity. 56 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:27.159 Absolutely. Like I said, never Mind was not the album 57 00:03:27.439 --> 00:03:32.159 that the band anticipated it would be, particularly Kurt Cobain's 58 00:03:32.199 --> 00:03:35.360 desire for the album. In the end, he felt it 59 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:39.319 was overproduced. He even described it after the fact as 60 00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:43.560 closer to a Motley Crue record than a Nirvana record. 61 00:03:44.520 --> 00:03:48.639 So when the prospect of returning to the studio nearly 62 00:03:48.680 --> 00:03:53.800 two years after the recording of never Mind began, to 63 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:58.800 fall into place. The band, again largely Kirk Cobain. They 64 00:03:58.840 --> 00:04:04.120 were focused on a particular sound and a particular audience 65 00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:04.520 as well. 66 00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:08.719 Chapter two, from Seattle to Brazil begins connecting the dots 67 00:04:08.759 --> 00:04:11.120 between the end of Nevermind and the birth of in Utero. 68 00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:14.800 Nirvana's first instinct wasn't to find another big name producer. 69 00:04:14.840 --> 00:04:17.680 It was to go back to Jack and Dino. Tell 70 00:04:17.720 --> 00:04:20.079 us about those sessions well. 71 00:04:20.360 --> 00:04:24.160 Jack and Dino produced the band's first album, Bleach. It 72 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:28.160 went well at the time, and they had worked with 73 00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:30.759 Indino not just on their first album, but on a 74 00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:33.279 previous demo as well, so they had a history together. 75 00:04:33.319 --> 00:04:38.279 He understood the band and the band understood him. And 76 00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:43.800 Butch Vig produced never Mind. They liked Butch, but again, 77 00:04:43.839 --> 00:04:46.639 the sound was not the sound they wanted. When they 78 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:51.600 were exploring plans for their third album, what better way 79 00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:55.040 to go back to the sound that we wanted as 80 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:58.959 a band than to explore options with Jack and Dino. 81 00:04:59.800 --> 00:05:02.600 The time, and throughout most of his career, Jack and 82 00:05:02.639 --> 00:05:10.279 Dino was producing albums in Seattle, and the band booked 83 00:05:11.560 --> 00:05:18.879 a session with Jack in October of ninety two, and 84 00:05:20.920 --> 00:05:26.399 it didn't go well. Kir Cobain was not focused, and 85 00:05:26.439 --> 00:05:31.199 again the drama within the band, largely attributed to Kurt Cobain, 86 00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:36.800 took away from that session. Some material was recorded, but 87 00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:41.160 only one of the songs, brade Me, had lyrics, so 88 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:45.360 it was not a successful session. They enjoyed Jack and 89 00:05:45.399 --> 00:05:48.639 Dino enjoyed his work, but I think it was clear 90 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:50.759 to the band and in Dino at that time that 91 00:05:50.839 --> 00:05:55.480 they needed to look elsewhere for a producer for their 92 00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:56.120 third album. 93 00:05:56.439 --> 00:05:59.480 And then comes Steve Albini, and you do give context 94 00:05:59.480 --> 00:06:02.759 to understand why Kurt believed only Steve Albini could help 95 00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:05.000 him make the record that he heard in his head. 96 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:08.519 You spent a lot of time explaining Albini's philosophy before 97 00:06:08.600 --> 00:06:11.800 Nirvana ever contacts him. They could have worked with virtually 98 00:06:12.439 --> 00:06:16.560 anyone after nevermind, What was it about Albini that convinced 99 00:06:16.759 --> 00:06:19.000 Kurt he was the right guy for this album? 100 00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:21.399 Oh yeah, the band had, you know, the phone book 101 00:06:21.439 --> 00:06:23.519 when it came to producers. They could have worked with anybody, 102 00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:29.560 but Albini exemplified that do it yourself ethos that the band, 103 00:06:30.079 --> 00:06:35.079 again largely Kirk Cobain, wanted. They wanted to be viewed 104 00:06:35.079 --> 00:06:40.279 in a certain way, but also and specifically, Albini exemplified 105 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:45.120 a sound. Ker Cobain had this sound in his head, 106 00:06:45.959 --> 00:06:51.639 Steve Albini sound since the beginning of Nirvana. Albini had 107 00:06:51.680 --> 00:06:57.399 worked with many of Kirk Cobain's many bands that Kirk 108 00:06:57.439 --> 00:06:59.759 Cobain idolized. He worked with the Pixies, he worked with 109 00:06:59.759 --> 00:07:04.920 the Readers, the Jesus Lizard, and again he wanted that sound, 110 00:07:05.879 --> 00:07:09.959 and he was pretty held bent on getting Albini to 111 00:07:10.040 --> 00:07:11.800 agree to work with the band. 112 00:07:12.360 --> 00:07:15.439 I loved reading the letters exchanged between Kurt and Steve. 113 00:07:15.959 --> 00:07:18.680 They almost read more like two artists discussing ideas than 114 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:23.639 really negotiating a business deal. Albini's response was incredibly detailed. 115 00:07:23.639 --> 00:07:27.360 It's almost like he's outlining his entire recording philosophy. And 116 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:31.720 Albini refused royalties. He said, quote pay me like a plumber. 117 00:07:32.199 --> 00:07:34.240 He took a flat fee of one hundred thousand dollars, 118 00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:38.319 which seems almost unheard of in the music industry. He 119 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:42.319 basically represented everything that Kurt felt he lost after nevermind 120 00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:46.839 the independence, the authenticity, and that complete artistic freedom. Was 121 00:07:46.920 --> 00:07:50.959 hiring Albini as much a symbolic statement for Kurt as 122 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:53.639 it was a musical decision, because I know he talked 123 00:07:53.680 --> 00:07:55.399 about Albini a lot in interviews. 124 00:07:55.879 --> 00:08:00.480 Absolutely, Albini exemplified what Kirk Obeam won it to be, 125 00:08:02.600 --> 00:08:07.360 not to focus on money, to focus on art. And again, 126 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:13.399 when the prospect of recording Albini became Angibal became possible, 127 00:08:14.240 --> 00:08:17.160 he ran with it. The letter that you referenced was 128 00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:25.319 a letter that Steve Albini sent to the band after 129 00:08:25.399 --> 00:08:29.839 his conversations with Kurt Cobain. He wanted to get his 130 00:08:29.920 --> 00:08:34.120 thoughts down for the band so they knew before they 131 00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:36.720 entered the studio what they were getting into. Albini had 132 00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:40.360 a recording methodology, he had a certain way that he 133 00:08:40.519 --> 00:08:47.000 expected bands to act in the studio. And it wasn't 134 00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:50.639 anything against Tarban, it was just he had this universal 135 00:08:51.559 --> 00:08:56.399 ideology in the studio and again he wasn't going to 136 00:08:56.480 --> 00:08:59.759 agree to anything until it was clear the band was 137 00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:04.679 all in. That letter is a four page letter. It's 138 00:09:04.759 --> 00:09:10.320 pretty typical for Steve Albini. He doesn't hold back and 139 00:09:10.840 --> 00:09:14.279 it was largely unseen for twenty years. It was released 140 00:09:15.080 --> 00:09:19.480 with a twentieth anniversary edition of the Euro in twenty. 141 00:09:19.240 --> 00:09:23.159 Thirteen Packaderam Studios. You take us inside that studio where 142 00:09:23.159 --> 00:09:27.200 in Utero was actually made. There are some terrific behind 143 00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:29.320 the scenes stories here in the book. Do you think 144 00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:33.440 in Uterol would have been a fundamentally different album if 145 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:37.120 it was recorded in Los Angeles or another conventional studio 146 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:42.360 instead of that, which was a secluded farmhouse in rural Minnesota. 147 00:09:42.559 --> 00:09:46.600 You never know. Kirk Obein was just so, he was 148 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:53.559 not well. Essentially, Packingham Studios brought the band essentially to 149 00:09:53.559 --> 00:09:57.600 the middle of nowhere and they were able to focus 150 00:09:57.600 --> 00:10:01.639 on their music for two weeks and ignore everything else. 151 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:05.000 If they recorded anywhere else, I think there would have 152 00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:18.200 been so many interruptions, both through fans, hangers on and drugs. Unfortunately, 153 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:22.399 so it was actually Albini in his letter to the 154 00:10:22.440 --> 00:10:26.840 band he recommended Packing Room Studios. He had worked there 155 00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:32.000 a few times. Albini primarily worked in Chicago, and he 156 00:10:32.039 --> 00:10:37.120 had about a year prior to euro being recorded, he 157 00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:41.279 had worked at Packing Room Studios, started working there and 158 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:45.600 he felt with a perfect place to get the band away, 159 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:49.360 kind of get back to basics and focus on the music. 160 00:10:49.679 --> 00:10:51.679 That studio is still there. I believe I spoke to 161 00:10:51.679 --> 00:10:54.240 an author maybe a year ago or less that was there. 162 00:10:54.600 --> 00:10:57.679 Yeah, you mentioned a moment ago about the packing room studios, 163 00:10:59.399 --> 00:11:05.039 and it's you the unique presentation of the studio. It 164 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:09.039 was built. The residents that's adjacent to the studio was 165 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:13.320 built in the sixties and a family lived there for 166 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:17.960 fifteen twenty years, and the studio was not initially there 167 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:23.799 a beautiful piece of property in Minnesota, and when the 168 00:11:25.159 --> 00:11:27.679 couple who owned the home, when they had both passed, 169 00:11:28.360 --> 00:11:33.399 the property and the residents were sold to a group, 170 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:37.960 a local group in the Minnesota area who decided to 171 00:11:38.080 --> 00:11:42.039 build a studio adjacent to the main residence and kind 172 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:48.039 of present this all encompassing environment for bands coming into 173 00:11:48.039 --> 00:11:56.679 the area, a very unique environment where band and a 174 00:11:56.679 --> 00:12:00.440 few individuals surrounding the band could stay throughout the of 175 00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:03.440 the session and then just walk one hundred feet to 176 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:06.799 the studio each day to work. There was really no 177 00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:12.480 need to leave the studio, although staying, you know, cooped 178 00:12:12.559 --> 00:12:15.799 up in a house for two weeks in the middle 179 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:19.519 of winter I'm sure became quite a chore. 180 00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:23.600 Yeah, challenging. As for the songs, you trace their origins, 181 00:12:23.639 --> 00:12:26.519 how they evolved, and what they reveal about Kurt's mindset. 182 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:29.720 The album opens with Serve the Servants. The lyrics touch 183 00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:33.279 on his parents' divorce, fame, and the media. Do you 184 00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:37.120 think Serve the Servants is the most autobiographical song that 185 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:37.879 Kurt ever wrote. 186 00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:41.840 It's definitely one of them. I think every song post 187 00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:48.279 Bleach had something about his life in there. He infamously 188 00:12:50.120 --> 00:12:53.399 we would state that his lyrics are just they have 189 00:12:53.519 --> 00:12:56.360 no meaning. I don't think that. I've always thought, you 190 00:12:56.360 --> 00:12:59.480 know that there was a there was a clear underlying 191 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:03.720 a story to many of his songs. I'm not all 192 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:06.759 of them, but most of the songs on a newter 193 00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:12.799 Oh have a clear focus, and most of them are autobiographical, 194 00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:16.639 Especially at that point in his life he was he 195 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:20.080 had so much to say, but I think he was 196 00:13:21.159 --> 00:13:27.000 just kind of mentally and emotionally, he had no other 197 00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:30.919 outlets and his music remained his only way to kind 198 00:13:30.919 --> 00:13:32.240 of get his thoughts out there. 199 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:37.399 Thanks so much for checking out the bookd on Rock podcast. 200 00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:41.200 If you've just found the podcast, welcome. If you've been listening, 201 00:13:41.399 --> 00:13:43.519 thank you so much for your support, and make sure 202 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:46.039 you tell a friend, a family member, share on social 203 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:49.480 media and let people know about booked on Rock. And 204 00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:51.919 if you do like the podcast, make sure you subscribe, 205 00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:54.639 give a five star review. Wherever you listen to the 206 00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:59.279 Booked on Rock podcast, Run Amazon, Apple, iHeart, Spotify, Spreaker, 207 00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:02.200 tune in, and on YouTube music. You can check out 208 00:14:02.200 --> 00:14:04.879 the full episodes on video, along with video highlights from 209 00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:07.960 episodes on the Booked on Rock YouTube channel. Find it 210 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:11.519 at Booked on Rock. Thanks again for listening. Now back 211 00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:17.000 to the show, Scentless Apprentice, What a job Dave Grohl 212 00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:19.519 does on drums here which the song actually grew from 213 00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:21.720 a pattern that he had come up with. It was 214 00:14:21.759 --> 00:14:26.440 inspired by Patrick Suskin's novel Perfume, The Story of a Murderer, 215 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:29.159 one of the few songs where Dave and Chris received 216 00:14:29.159 --> 00:14:32.159 songwriting credit, which leads to my question, did that suggest 217 00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:35.440 maybe the band was becoming more collaborative at this point? 218 00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:37.320 I know you talked about in the book too. It 219 00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:38.840 kind of took the pressure off of Kurt. 220 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:43.879 Yeah, he wanted the help again. He was just worn 221 00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:49.559 down emotionally and mentally in His writing had decreased significantly 222 00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:55.279 in ninety three, after or I'm Sorry ninety two, his 223 00:14:55.399 --> 00:15:00.480 output had decreased significantly and most of the material, some 224 00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:05.120 of the material on in Utero was they were songs 225 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:11.759 written prior to never Mind, so yes, he wanted the help. 226 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:17.440 He wanted his bandmates to chime in, although he was 227 00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:23.200 you know, he wasn't willing to take anything, even sentence apprentice. 228 00:15:23.240 --> 00:15:28.039 He first was he called it. I believe that the 229 00:15:28.120 --> 00:15:36.240 term was a cliche tad riff. Nirvana's peers in the 230 00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:39.799 Seattle Music seemed tad who they had turned with, but 231 00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:46.679 he eventually went along with the Groles work and they 232 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:49.159 pieced the song together. It was the only song on 233 00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:54.159 Utero that the group had written as a trio. Every 234 00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:56.919 other song Cobaine had wrote alone. 235 00:15:57.200 --> 00:15:59.360 There was a song, though, that Grole wrote that ended 236 00:15:59.399 --> 00:16:01.639 up on the deluxe edition, right. 237 00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:07.720 Yes, Marigold. Groll wrote it had appeared on a cossette 238 00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:10.120 that he had of tracks that he had written that 239 00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:15.440 appeared on an indie label a few months prior, but 240 00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:20.200 he had time at Packyderham to put down his own material, 241 00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:24.840 and an engineer also at Packyderham at the time, Bob Weston, 242 00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:29.840 helped Roll piece it together. It didn't appear on in 243 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:34.600 Utero's final final track mix, but it appeared later on 244 00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:39.240 a single and then released on the anniversary editions of 245 00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:39.679 the utero. 246 00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:43.600 You describe Hard Shaped Box taking shape over months. This 247 00:16:43.639 --> 00:16:47.240 is the big standout single. Even you even mentioned Courtney 248 00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:51.159 Love wanting to use the riff herself, but Kurt was 249 00:16:51.159 --> 00:16:54.039 having none of that. She heard him playing it in 250 00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:56.840 a closet, asked if she could use it and he 251 00:16:57.080 --> 00:16:59.080 looked up and said fuck off. 252 00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:03.519 Yeah, and that's just typical Courtney Love, Like you'd be 253 00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:07.759 surprised if she didn't ask for it, Like she was 254 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:11.200 trying to piece her own album together, which we would 255 00:17:11.200 --> 00:17:13.160 become lived through this, which is a great album. She 256 00:17:13.160 --> 00:17:17.319 didn't need Heart Shape Box. She ended up releasing a 257 00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:20.599 great album herself. But yeah, her Cobain was piecing Heart 258 00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:26.759 Shaped Box together in his poem at the time. From 259 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:30.359 what I have heard in his closet, she storms in 260 00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:33.000 and wants the riff for her album and he says, no, 261 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:37.640 I'm not having it. He ended up putting it aside, 262 00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:44.319 and then the final instrumentation was put together along with 263 00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:48.680 Dave Grohl and Chris Novselich before the final outcome came together. 264 00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:52.400 Going back to the lyrics, so for this one, many 265 00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:56.000 interpretations of what the lyrics to Heard Shape Box are about. 266 00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:58.759 What are the interpretations and what did Kurt say about it? 267 00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:03.079 And again there's so many interpretations of Heart Shaped Box, 268 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:08.200 a cough and death Courtney love. He ended up saying 269 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:13.680 that it was a attributed to children with cancer, and 270 00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:20.359 he the impact, the emotional impact that he felt that 271 00:18:20.519 --> 00:18:21.759 on him, he. 272 00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:23.240 Would talk about. I mean, it's not like the Bob 273 00:18:23.319 --> 00:18:26.920 Dylan type who wouldn't say anything at all about his lyrics. 274 00:18:26.920 --> 00:18:29.119 He would talk about them absolutely. 275 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:32.720 I think he liked to have some mystique there as 276 00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:37.119 well though, and it had you know, as the ears 277 00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:40.039 have gone by, it has served him. Like people, you know, 278 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:44.279 still debate over what certain songs mean. I mean, obviously 279 00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:47.519 there's some that it's pretty clear what they need. But yeah, 280 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:50.400 Heart Shape Boxes is probably one of the one of 281 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:54.799 the the most debated songs that he ever wrote. Like 282 00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:58.240 what is this song about? And again, from what I 283 00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:03.559 gathered through my research was that or he attributed it 284 00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:09.680 to nothing necessarily dark, more sad, and that being the 285 00:19:09.799 --> 00:19:13.640 children who suffered with cancer and the impact of that 286 00:19:15.079 --> 00:19:16.279 topic had on him. 287 00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:19.359 Robert Boyd, the author of Last Stand in Utero and 288 00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:22.319 The Final Days of Nirvana, Rape Me remains one of 289 00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:26.319 Nirvana's most controversial songs. It was almost the album opener. 290 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:29.799 Why do you think so many people misunderstood Kurt's intentions? 291 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:36.640 Well, rape, I mean the term itself is, you know, untouchable. 292 00:19:36.680 --> 00:19:39.720 People don't they don't want anything to do with it, 293 00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:45.480 understandably so. But Kirko, being the consummate artist, he was 294 00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:49.799 going to tell his story how he wanted to tell it. 295 00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:56.240 And that was a song that was written when they 296 00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:00.880 were recording never Mind. So it was it was around 297 00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:05.200 the time that he was mentally he was doing well. 298 00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:12.160 He he hadn't dove into a lifestyle of chronic drug abuse, 299 00:20:13.079 --> 00:20:15.319 so he he knew what he wanted to say in 300 00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:19.920 those lyrics, and he over time when asked, and he 301 00:20:20.039 --> 00:20:24.400 was asked all the time after and you know was released, 302 00:20:24.440 --> 00:20:30.119 what does this song mean? And he described it as 303 00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:35.160 the abuse of the abuser, particularly a rapist, someone who's 304 00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:41.200 incarcerated getting sexually assaulted themselves. As time went on and 305 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:49.799 his struggles with the media began, critics viewed the song 306 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:57.880 as his interpretation of how he was getting critiqued and 307 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:02.480 land based by the media, but he always went back 308 00:21:02.519 --> 00:21:11.559 to the original interpretation that the saw was simply about 309 00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:13.200 the abuser. Is getting abused. 310 00:21:13.480 --> 00:21:16.319 It was anti rape, is what he was saying. Yes, interested, 311 00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:20.559 I was really interested in the section about Francis Farmer. 312 00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:24.200 I found out about her story years later from the 313 00:21:24.279 --> 00:21:29.359 song and then saw a documentary on her. Read about her. 314 00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:32.960 Kurt read about her in high school. So, for those 315 00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:36.160 who aren't familiar, who is she and what drew Kurt 316 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:39.480 so strongly to her story that the actual song title 317 00:21:39.559 --> 00:21:46.799 is Francis Farmer will have her Revenge on Seattle On Seattle. Yeah. 318 00:21:47.079 --> 00:21:51.039 So he had read a book about Francis Farmer in 319 00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:55.880 high school titled I Believed Shadowland, and he was just 320 00:21:56.000 --> 00:22:01.440 drawn to Francis Farmer. Francis Farmer was an act actress 321 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:07.000 in the thirties and forties who had some mental health issues, 322 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:17.480 and then she was arrested and ultimately placed into a 323 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:21.400 mental health facility, where she remained for several years. She 324 00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:26.319 would later contend that she was abused, not treated properly, 325 00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:33.200 and when she eventually was when she returned to the community, 326 00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:40.119 she her career was over. She couldn't return to film 327 00:22:40.359 --> 00:22:43.160 or even the stage like she had in the past. 328 00:22:43.799 --> 00:22:51.880 And as Kurt's life progressed and he encountered fame, and 329 00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:58.960 impact fame. He felt a pinship in a way with 330 00:22:59.559 --> 00:23:05.400 Francis Farmer preaching fame and then the media tearing you down, 331 00:23:06.519 --> 00:23:09.119 and then in the last year eighteen months of his 332 00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:14.519 life struggling with mental health and trying to come back 333 00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:19.160 from that. So he he almost had an obsession with 334 00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:25.440 Francis Farmer, and he tried to even track down Shadow, 335 00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:33.319 who was a Seattle writer. Even the last days of 336 00:23:33.400 --> 00:23:36.759 kirk Cobain's life, he made efforts to sit down with 337 00:23:36.839 --> 00:23:42.799 the author, and unfortunately it didn't happen. He clearly had 338 00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:47.119 a fascination with the history and in my opinion, Francis 339 00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:50.079 Farmer will have her yeats one of the stand up. 340 00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:54.039 Yes, she was very outspoken, and then they accused her 341 00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:55.240 of being a communist. 342 00:23:55.559 --> 00:24:01.279 Yes, very outspoken. She she didn't pull back, and some 343 00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:06.400 of the literature I've read almost painted the picture as 344 00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:12.960 her hospitalizations were an effort to silence her. Who knows 345 00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:15.960 if that was the case, which she definitely did struggle 346 00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:18.359 with mental health issues. I don't know if it warranted 347 00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:28.960 hospitalizations for years on end. But again that abuse and uncertainty, 348 00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:37.000 Kirk Cobing gravitated to and again had a Kinship with 349 00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:38.039 with Francis. 350 00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:40.880 Farmer born in Seattle. All Right, now Dumb is the 351 00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:44.160 next track. One of the album's quieter moments, but it 352 00:24:44.200 --> 00:24:46.640 may be one of its sharpest lyrical statements. Tell us 353 00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:49.519 about this one, making an observation of other people here. 354 00:24:49.720 --> 00:24:53.519 Yeah, again, this is a track that was written for you, 355 00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:55.640 never Mind. It was one of the oldest tracks written 356 00:24:55.720 --> 00:25:01.680 that would appear on I'm Sorry in Uterope. Really a 357 00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:08.599 simple track and but one of the albums more beautiful tracks. 358 00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:14.079 Mostly a standout track essentially. But Kirk Cobain described as 359 00:25:14.119 --> 00:25:22.000 simply as the lyrics simply as people who have simple lives, 360 00:25:22.359 --> 00:25:26.759 watching TV, doing nothing more with their lives and being 361 00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:33.440 fine dumb essentially. He described them happy. 362 00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:36.880 But very ape and milk it. These songs feel almost 363 00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:39.440 like Nirvana trying to push the listeners away from the 364 00:25:39.519 --> 00:25:42.759 polished sound of Nevermind. Was Kurt consciously trying to challenge 365 00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:44.119 the audience with these songs? 366 00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:49.200 Yeah, it's pretty clear that and this would be side 367 00:25:49.240 --> 00:25:53.720 to a traditional record or just that tape when you 368 00:25:53.799 --> 00:25:57.680 flipped that, when you flipped it over and started side 369 00:25:57.799 --> 00:26:01.319 side who you were getting hit with? What Kurt Cobain wanted, 370 00:26:01.400 --> 00:26:06.759 He this is the sound he wanted, and he it 371 00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:10.480 was the sound he wanted the band to gravitate towards 372 00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:18.839 as they progressed. Both songs somewhat short, but they do 373 00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:25.000 not let up, and then they guide you into track 374 00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:32.000 dye Penny Royalty, which I feel is it's my favorite 375 00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:34.359 track on the album. I think it's another standout track. 376 00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:39.000 It brings you up very ape milk it and then 377 00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:41.000 you come down to perfection. 378 00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:44.160 Yeah. I would go with all apologies as mine, but 379 00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:47.720 Penny Royalty, Yeah, it feels deeply personal. But it's also 380 00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:50.279 one occurs the most cryptic songs. What do you think 381 00:26:50.279 --> 00:26:52.200 he's trying to communicate here? 382 00:26:52.839 --> 00:26:57.920 There's like with most of his his writing, he's all 383 00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:03.759 over the place. But it is dark, it's autobiographical. The 384 00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:13.920 title is a plant that it supposedly induces abortion. Abortion. 385 00:27:14.039 --> 00:27:17.880 It doesn't induce abortion. But he he wanted to play 386 00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:20.519 with his critics, he wanted to play with the audience, 387 00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:22.920 and that title is a perfect way to do with. 388 00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:28.960 The track itself references his emotional struggles, his mental health. 389 00:27:30.119 --> 00:27:35.920 It's a it's a reflection of his depression and depression 390 00:27:35.960 --> 00:27:38.880 that I don't think he thought he would ever come 391 00:27:38.920 --> 00:27:39.319 out of. 392 00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:43.000 Radio friendly Unit Shifter, one of the most ironic titles 393 00:27:43.039 --> 00:27:45.039 on the album. Another that the band considered as an 394 00:27:45.079 --> 00:27:48.240 album opener was Kurt Poking fun at the music industry 395 00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:52.400 was the joke aimed at the band's own unexpected success. 396 00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:55.079 Have to Nevermind. I mean that radio friendly unit Shifter 397 00:27:55.359 --> 00:28:01.119 is basically the labels would use that term to describe 398 00:28:01.160 --> 00:28:03.920 something that would be a good single, a song that 399 00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:09.240 would help to sell, to move units, sell albums, sell CDs, cassettes. 400 00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:12.039 Yeah, they were definitely poking fun at themselves, but also 401 00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:17.440