Speaker 1: Those who are familiar with Tirvana, they immediately go to
Speaker 1: never Mind. It's the go to. I think euro is
Speaker 1: the go to. It speaks about a band and about
Speaker 1: a songwriter who inspired a generation was obviously going through turmoil,
Speaker 1: and you can hear it. We're totally booked rock and roll.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll leave you. You're reading little Hands this.
Speaker 1: It's time to rock and roll, Rock, roll up, I
Speaker 1: totally booked.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to Booked on Rock conversations with authors, musicians
Speaker 2: and insiders revealing the stories behind classic rock's greatest songs,
Speaker 2: albums and artists. I'm Eric Senich. Before we get started,
Speaker 2: listeners and viewers get fifteen percent off classic rock merchandise
Speaker 2: at old glory dot com. Just use the code Booked
Speaker 2: on Rock like a Nirvana Established nineteen eighty eight T
Speaker 2: shirt and a Nirvana guitar zip black hoodie that's available
Speaker 2: right now. The link is in the show notes, Or
Speaker 2: go to Booked on Rock dot com and click on
Speaker 2: my deals. And we are talking Nirvana today. Robert Boyd
Speaker 2: returns to the podcast. His latest book is titled in
Speaker 2: Utero and the Final Days of Nirvana. One year after
Speaker 2: Nevermind transformed Nirvana into the biggest band in the world.
Speaker 2: The group's future was anything but certain, as internal tensions
Speaker 2: and relentless media scrutiny mounted. The band travel to rural
Speaker 2: Minnesota in early nineteen ninety three to record in Utero
Speaker 2: with producer Steve Albini. The result was a raw, uncompromising
Speaker 2: album that would become Nirvana's final studio release, capturing a
Speaker 2: band at both the height of its creative powers and
Speaker 2: the edge of its breaking point. That story is explored
Speaker 2: in Last Stand. Robert welcome back to the podcast.
Speaker 1: Good to see again, he was, well, thanks for having
Speaker 1: me back.
Speaker 2: Well, reading the prologue, I got the sense that this
Speaker 2: is not just a book about an album. It's about
Speaker 2: a band that's trying to reclaim its identity. Would you
Speaker 2: say in Utero was Nirvana's attempt to redefine themselves or
Speaker 2: do you think they saw it as maybe a last
Speaker 2: opportunity and maybe knew that the end of the band
Speaker 2: could be near both.
Speaker 1: Never mind blew the band, Uh blew the band away,
Speaker 1: Blue blew their fans away, and it was not an
Speaker 1: album that they felt represented them. So the band decided
Speaker 1: to go back to Basics, which was their first release
Speaker 1: Bleach and their compilation album Incesticide, and focused on their
Speaker 1: original goals as a band. Not overproduced albums, focus on
Speaker 1: the material and the meaning of the material, and that's
Speaker 1: really what in Utero became. Unfortunately, the drama surrounding the
Speaker 1: band at the time, both in and out of the band,
Speaker 1: kind of took center stage, and unfortunately at the time
Speaker 1: the album kind of took a bat seat.
Speaker 2: As I read that opening chapter, which is titled Before
Speaker 2: the Storm, it struck me that almost every decision Nirvana
Speaker 2: made before never Mind, the punk influences, the DIY mindset,
Speaker 2: even the relentless touring, seemed all rooted in authenticity. Once
Speaker 2: never Mind became a phenomenon, was in Utero essentially Kurt
Speaker 2: Cobain's attempt to reclaim that authenticity.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Like I said, never Mind was not the album
Speaker 1: that the band anticipated it would be, particularly Kurt Cobain's
Speaker 1: desire for the album. In the end, he felt it
Speaker 1: was overproduced. He even described it after the fact as
Speaker 1: closer to a Motley Crue record than a Nirvana record.
Speaker 1: So when the prospect of returning to the studio nearly
Speaker 1: two years after the recording of never Mind began, to
Speaker 1: fall into place. The band, again largely Kirk Cobain. They
Speaker 1: were focused on a particular sound and a particular audience
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 2: Chapter two, from Seattle to Brazil begins connecting the dots
Speaker 2: between the end of Nevermind and the birth of in Utero.
Speaker 2: Nirvana's first instinct wasn't to find another big name producer.
Speaker 2: It was to go back to Jack and Dino. Tell
Speaker 2: us about those sessions well.
Speaker 1: Jack and Dino produced the band's first album, Bleach. It
Speaker 1: went well at the time, and they had worked with
Speaker 1: Indino not just on their first album, but on a
Speaker 1: previous demo as well, so they had a history together.
Speaker 1: He understood the band and the band understood him. And
Speaker 1: Butch Vig produced never Mind. They liked Butch, but again,
Speaker 1: the sound was not the sound they wanted. When they
Speaker 1: were exploring plans for their third album, what better way
Speaker 1: to go back to the sound that we wanted as
Speaker 1: a band than to explore options with Jack and Dino.
Speaker 1: The time, and throughout most of his career, Jack and
Speaker 1: Dino was producing albums in Seattle, and the band booked
Speaker 1: a session with Jack in October of ninety two, and
Speaker 1: it didn't go well. Kir Cobain was not focused, and
Speaker 1: again the drama within the band, largely attributed to Kurt Cobain,
Speaker 1: took away from that session. Some material was recorded, but
Speaker 1: only one of the songs, brade Me, had lyrics, so
Speaker 1: it was not a successful session. They enjoyed Jack and
Speaker 1: Dino enjoyed his work, but I think it was clear
Speaker 1: to the band and in Dino at that time that
Speaker 1: they needed to look elsewhere for a producer for their
Speaker 1: third album.
Speaker 2: And then comes Steve Albini, and you do give context
Speaker 2: to understand why Kurt believed only Steve Albini could help
Speaker 2: him make the record that he heard in his head.
Speaker 2: You spent a lot of time explaining Albini's philosophy before
Speaker 2: Nirvana ever contacts him. They could have worked with virtually
Speaker 2: anyone after nevermind, What was it about Albini that convinced
Speaker 2: Kurt he was the right guy for this album?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the band had, you know, the phone book
Speaker 1: when it came to producers. They could have worked with anybody,
Speaker 1: but Albini exemplified that do it yourself ethos that the band,
Speaker 1: again largely Kirk Cobain, wanted. They wanted to be viewed
Speaker 1: in a certain way, but also and specifically, Albini exemplified
Speaker 1: a sound. Ker Cobain had this sound in his head,
Speaker 1: Steve Albini sound since the beginning of Nirvana. Albini had
Speaker 1: worked with many of Kirk Cobain's many bands that Kirk
Speaker 1: Cobain idolized. He worked with the Pixies, he worked with
Speaker 1: the Readers, the Jesus Lizard, and again he wanted that sound,
Speaker 1: and he was pretty held bent on getting Albini to
Speaker 1: agree to work with the band.
Speaker 2: I loved reading the letters exchanged between Kurt and Steve.
Speaker 2: They almost read more like two artists discussing ideas than
Speaker 2: really negotiating a business deal. Albini's response was incredibly detailed.
Speaker 2: It's almost like he's outlining his entire recording philosophy. And
Speaker 2: Albini refused royalties. He said, quote pay me like a plumber.
Speaker 2: He took a flat fee of one hundred thousand dollars,
Speaker 2: which seems almost unheard of in the music industry. He
Speaker 2: basically represented everything that Kurt felt he lost after nevermind
Speaker 2: the independence, the authenticity, and that complete artistic freedom. Was
Speaker 2: hiring Albini as much a symbolic statement for Kurt as
Speaker 2: it was a musical decision, because I know he talked
Speaker 2: about Albini a lot in interviews.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Albini exemplified what Kirk Obeam won it to be,
Speaker 1: not to focus on money, to focus on art. And again,
Speaker 1: when the prospect of recording Albini became Angibal became possible,
Speaker 1: he ran with it. The letter that you referenced was
Speaker 1: a letter that Steve Albini sent to the band after
Speaker 1: his conversations with Kurt Cobain. He wanted to get his
Speaker 1: thoughts down for the band so they knew before they
Speaker 1: entered the studio what they were getting into. Albini had
Speaker 1: a recording methodology, he had a certain way that he
Speaker 1: expected bands to act in the studio. And it wasn't
Speaker 1: anything against Tarban, it was just he had this universal
Speaker 1: ideology in the studio and again he wasn't going to
Speaker 1: agree to anything until it was clear the band was
Speaker 1: all in. That letter is a four page letter. It's
Speaker 1: pretty typical for Steve Albini. He doesn't hold back and
Speaker 1: it was largely unseen for twenty years. It was released
Speaker 1: with a twentieth anniversary edition of the Euro in twenty.
Speaker 2: Thirteen Packaderam Studios. You take us inside that studio where
Speaker 2: in Utero was actually made. There are some terrific behind
Speaker 2: the scenes stories here in the book. Do you think
Speaker 2: in Uterol would have been a fundamentally different album if
Speaker 2: it was recorded in Los Angeles or another conventional studio
Speaker 2: instead of that, which was a secluded farmhouse in rural Minnesota.
Speaker 1: You never know. Kirk Obein was just so, he was
Speaker 1: not well. Essentially, Packingham Studios brought the band essentially to
Speaker 1: the middle of nowhere and they were able to focus
Speaker 1: on their music for two weeks and ignore everything else.
Speaker 1: If they recorded anywhere else, I think there would have
Speaker 1: been so many interruptions, both through fans, hangers on and drugs. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: so it was actually Albini in his letter to the
Speaker 1: band he recommended Packing Room Studios. He had worked there
Speaker 1: a few times. Albini primarily worked in Chicago, and he
Speaker 1: had about a year prior to euro being recorded, he
Speaker 1: had worked at Packing Room Studios, started working there and
Speaker 1: he felt with a perfect place to get the band away,
Speaker 1: kind of get back to basics and focus on the music.
Speaker 2: That studio is still there. I believe I spoke to
Speaker 2: an author maybe a year ago or less that was there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned a moment ago about the packing room studios,
Speaker 1: and it's you the unique presentation of the studio. It
Speaker 1: was built. The residents that's adjacent to the studio was
Speaker 1: built in the sixties and a family lived there for
Speaker 1: fifteen twenty years, and the studio was not initially there
Speaker 1: a beautiful piece of property in Minnesota, and when the
Speaker 1: couple who owned the home, when they had both passed,
Speaker 1: the property and the residents were sold to a group,
Speaker 1: a local group in the Minnesota area who decided to
Speaker 1: build a studio adjacent to the main residence and kind
Speaker 1: of present this all encompassing environment for bands coming into
Speaker 1: the area, a very unique environment where band and a
Speaker 1: few individuals surrounding the band could stay throughout the of
Speaker 1: the session and then just walk one hundred feet to
Speaker 1: the studio each day to work. There was really no
Speaker 1: need to leave the studio, although staying, you know, cooped
Speaker 1: up in a house for two weeks in the middle
Speaker 1: of winter I'm sure became quite a chore.
Speaker 2: Yeah, challenging. As for the songs, you trace their origins,
Speaker 2: how they evolved, and what they reveal about Kurt's mindset.
Speaker 2: The album opens with Serve the Servants. The lyrics touch
Speaker 2: on his parents' divorce, fame, and the media. Do you
Speaker 2: think Serve the Servants is the most autobiographical song that
Speaker 2: Kurt ever wrote.
Speaker 1: It's definitely one of them. I think every song post
Speaker 1: Bleach had something about his life in there. He infamously
Speaker 1: we would state that his lyrics are just they have
Speaker 1: no meaning. I don't think that. I've always thought, you
Speaker 1: know that there was a there was a clear underlying
Speaker 1: a story to many of his songs. I'm not all
Speaker 1: of them, but most of the songs on a newter
Speaker 1: Oh have a clear focus, and most of them are autobiographical,
Speaker 1: Especially at that point in his life he was he
Speaker 1: had so much to say, but I think he was
Speaker 1: just kind of mentally and emotionally, he had no other
Speaker 1: outlets and his music remained his only way to kind
Speaker 1: of get his thoughts out there.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for checking out the bookd on Rock podcast.
Speaker 2: If you've just found the podcast, welcome. If you've been listening,
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Speaker 2: at Booked on Rock. Thanks again for listening. Now back
Speaker 2: to the show, Scentless Apprentice, What a job Dave Grohl
Speaker 2: does on drums here which the song actually grew from
Speaker 2: a pattern that he had come up with. It was
Speaker 2: inspired by Patrick Suskin's novel Perfume, The Story of a Murderer,
Speaker 2: one of the few songs where Dave and Chris received
Speaker 2: songwriting credit, which leads to my question, did that suggest
Speaker 2: maybe the band was becoming more collaborative at this point?
Speaker 2: I know you talked about in the book too. It
Speaker 2: kind of took the pressure off of Kurt.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he wanted the help again. He was just worn
Speaker 1: down emotionally and mentally in His writing had decreased significantly
Speaker 1: in ninety three, after or I'm Sorry ninety two, his
Speaker 1: output had decreased significantly and most of the material, some
Speaker 1: of the material on in Utero was they were songs
Speaker 1: written prior to never Mind, so yes, he wanted the help.
Speaker 1: He wanted his bandmates to chime in, although he was
Speaker 1: you know, he wasn't willing to take anything, even sentence apprentice.
Speaker 1: He first was he called it. I believe that the
Speaker 1: term was a cliche tad riff. Nirvana's peers in the
Speaker 1: Seattle Music seemed tad who they had turned with, but
Speaker 1: he eventually went along with the Groles work and they
Speaker 1: pieced the song together. It was the only song on
Speaker 1: Utero that the group had written as a trio. Every
Speaker 1: other song Cobaine had wrote alone.
Speaker 2: There was a song, though, that Grole wrote that ended
Speaker 2: up on the deluxe edition, right.
Speaker 1: Yes, Marigold. Groll wrote it had appeared on a cossette
Speaker 1: that he had of tracks that he had written that
Speaker 1: appeared on an indie label a few months prior, but
Speaker 1: he had time at Packyderham to put down his own material,
Speaker 1: and an engineer also at Packyderham at the time, Bob Weston,
Speaker 1: helped Roll piece it together. It didn't appear on in
Speaker 1: Utero's final final track mix, but it appeared later on
Speaker 1: a single and then released on the anniversary editions of
Speaker 1: the utero.
Speaker 2: You describe Hard Shaped Box taking shape over months. This
Speaker 2: is the big standout single. Even you even mentioned Courtney
Speaker 2: Love wanting to use the riff herself, but Kurt was
Speaker 2: having none of that. She heard him playing it in
Speaker 2: a closet, asked if she could use it and he
Speaker 2: looked up and said fuck off.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's just typical Courtney Love, Like you'd be
Speaker 1: surprised if she didn't ask for it, Like she was
Speaker 1: trying to piece her own album together, which we would
Speaker 1: become lived through this, which is a great album. She
Speaker 1: didn't need Heart Shape Box. She ended up releasing a
Speaker 1: great album herself. But yeah, her Cobain was piecing Heart
Speaker 1: Shaped Box together in his poem at the time. From
Speaker 1: what I have heard in his closet, she storms in
Speaker 1: and wants the riff for her album and he says, no,
Speaker 1: I'm not having it. He ended up putting it aside,
Speaker 1: and then the final instrumentation was put together along with
Speaker 1: Dave Grohl and Chris Novselich before the final outcome came together.
Speaker 2: Going back to the lyrics, so for this one, many
Speaker 2: interpretations of what the lyrics to Heard Shape Box are about.
Speaker 2: What are the interpretations and what did Kurt say about it?
Speaker 1: And again there's so many interpretations of Heart Shaped Box,
Speaker 1: a cough and death Courtney love. He ended up saying
Speaker 1: that it was a attributed to children with cancer, and
Speaker 1: he the impact, the emotional impact that he felt that
Speaker 1: on him, he.
Speaker 2: Would talk about. I mean, it's not like the Bob
Speaker 2: Dylan type who wouldn't say anything at all about his lyrics.
Speaker 2: He would talk about them absolutely.
Speaker 1: I think he liked to have some mystique there as
Speaker 1: well though, and it had you know, as the ears
Speaker 1: have gone by, it has served him. Like people, you know,
Speaker 1: still debate over what certain songs mean. I mean, obviously
Speaker 1: there's some that it's pretty clear what they need. But yeah,
Speaker 1: Heart Shape Boxes is probably one of the one of
Speaker 1: the the most debated songs that he ever wrote. Like
Speaker 1: what is this song about? And again, from what I
Speaker 1: gathered through my research was that or he attributed it
Speaker 1: to nothing necessarily dark, more sad, and that being the
Speaker 1: children who suffered with cancer and the impact of that
Speaker 1: topic had on him.
Speaker 2: Robert Boyd, the author of Last Stand in Utero and
Speaker 2: The Final Days of Nirvana, Rape Me remains one of
Speaker 2: Nirvana's most controversial songs. It was almost the album opener.
Speaker 2: Why do you think so many people misunderstood Kurt's intentions?
Speaker 1: Well, rape, I mean the term itself is, you know, untouchable.
Speaker 1: People don't they don't want anything to do with it,
Speaker 1: understandably so. But Kirko, being the consummate artist, he was
Speaker 1: going to tell his story how he wanted to tell it.
Speaker 1: And that was a song that was written when they
Speaker 1: were recording never Mind. So it was it was around
Speaker 1: the time that he was mentally he was doing well.
Speaker 1: He he hadn't dove into a lifestyle of chronic drug abuse,
Speaker 1: so he he knew what he wanted to say in
Speaker 1: those lyrics, and he over time when asked, and he
Speaker 1: was asked all the time after and you know was released,
Speaker 1: what does this song mean? And he described it as
Speaker 1: the abuse of the abuser, particularly a rapist, someone who's
Speaker 1: incarcerated getting sexually assaulted themselves. As time went on and
Speaker 1: his struggles with the media began, critics viewed the song
Speaker 1: as his interpretation of how he was getting critiqued and
Speaker 1: land based by the media, but he always went back
Speaker 1: to the original interpretation that the saw was simply about
Speaker 1: the abuser. Is getting abused.
Speaker 2: It was anti rape, is what he was saying. Yes, interested,
Speaker 2: I was really interested in the section about Francis Farmer.
Speaker 2: I found out about her story years later from the
Speaker 2: song and then saw a documentary on her. Read about her.
Speaker 2: Kurt read about her in high school. So, for those
Speaker 2: who aren't familiar, who is she and what drew Kurt
Speaker 2: so strongly to her story that the actual song title
Speaker 2: is Francis Farmer will have her Revenge on Seattle On Seattle. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So he had read a book about Francis Farmer in
Speaker 1: high school titled I Believed Shadowland, and he was just
Speaker 1: drawn to Francis Farmer. Francis Farmer was an act actress
Speaker 1: in the thirties and forties who had some mental health issues,
Speaker 1: and then she was arrested and ultimately placed into a
Speaker 1: mental health facility, where she remained for several years. She
Speaker 1: would later contend that she was abused, not treated properly,
Speaker 1: and when she eventually was when she returned to the community,
Speaker 1: she her career was over. She couldn't return to film
Speaker 1: or even the stage like she had in the past.
Speaker 1: And as Kurt's life progressed and he encountered fame, and
Speaker 1: impact fame. He felt a pinship in a way with
Speaker 1: Francis Farmer preaching fame and then the media tearing you down,
Speaker 1: and then in the last year eighteen months of his
Speaker 1: life struggling with mental health and trying to come back
Speaker 1: from that. So he he almost had an obsession with
Speaker 1: Francis Farmer, and he tried to even track down Shadow,
Speaker 1: who was a Seattle writer. Even the last days of
Speaker 1: kirk Cobain's life, he made efforts to sit down with
Speaker 1: the author, and unfortunately it didn't happen. He clearly had
Speaker 1: a fascination with the history and in my opinion, Francis
Speaker 1: Farmer will have her yeats one of the stand up.
Speaker 2: Yes, she was very outspoken, and then they accused her
Speaker 2: of being a communist.
Speaker 1: Yes, very outspoken. She she didn't pull back, and some
Speaker 1: of the literature I've read almost painted the picture as
Speaker 1: her hospitalizations were an effort to silence her. Who knows
Speaker 1: if that was the case, which she definitely did struggle
Speaker 1: with mental health issues. I don't know if it warranted
Speaker 1: hospitalizations for years on end. But again that abuse and uncertainty,
Speaker 1: Kirk Cobing gravitated to and again had a Kinship with
Speaker 1: with Francis.
Speaker 2: Farmer born in Seattle. All Right, now Dumb is the
Speaker 2: next track. One of the album's quieter moments, but it
Speaker 2: may be one of its sharpest lyrical statements. Tell us
Speaker 2: about this one, making an observation of other people here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, again, this is a track that was written for you,
Speaker 1: never Mind. It was one of the oldest tracks written
Speaker 1: that would appear on I'm Sorry in Uterope. Really a
Speaker 1: simple track and but one of the albums more beautiful tracks.
Speaker 1: Mostly a standout track essentially. But Kirk Cobain described as
Speaker 1: simply as the lyrics simply as people who have simple lives,
Speaker 1: watching TV, doing nothing more with their lives and being
Speaker 1: fine dumb essentially. He described them happy.
Speaker 2: But very ape and milk it. These songs feel almost
Speaker 2: like Nirvana trying to push the listeners away from the
Speaker 2: polished sound of Nevermind. Was Kurt consciously trying to challenge
Speaker 2: the audience with these songs?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty clear that and this would be side
Speaker 1: to a traditional record or just that tape when you
Speaker 1: flipped that, when you flipped it over and started side
Speaker 1: side who you were getting hit with? What Kurt Cobain wanted,
Speaker 1: He this is the sound he wanted, and he it
Speaker 1: was the sound he wanted the band to gravitate towards
Speaker 1: as they progressed. Both songs somewhat short, but they do
Speaker 1: not let up, and then they guide you into track
Speaker 1: dye Penny Royalty, which I feel is it's my favorite
Speaker 1: track on the album. I think it's another standout track.
Speaker 1: It brings you up very ape milk it and then
Speaker 1: you come down to perfection.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I would go with all apologies as mine, but
Speaker 2: Penny Royalty, Yeah, it feels deeply personal. But it's also
Speaker 2: one occurs the most cryptic songs. What do you think
Speaker 2: he's trying to communicate here?
Speaker 1: There's like with most of his his writing, he's all
Speaker 1: over the place. But it is dark, it's autobiographical. The
Speaker 1: title is a plant that it supposedly induces abortion. Abortion.
Speaker 1: It doesn't induce abortion. But he he wanted to play
Speaker 1: with his critics, he wanted to play with the audience,
Speaker 1: and that title is a perfect way to do with.
Speaker 1: The track itself references his emotional struggles, his mental health.
Speaker 1: It's a it's a reflection of his depression and depression
Speaker 1: that I don't think he thought he would ever come
Speaker 1: out of.
Speaker 2: Radio friendly Unit Shifter, one of the most ironic titles
Speaker 2: on the album. Another that the band considered as an
Speaker 2: album opener was Kurt Poking fun at the music industry
Speaker 2: was the joke aimed at the band's own unexpected success.
Speaker 2: Have to Nevermind. I mean that radio friendly unit Shifter
Speaker 2: is basically the labels would use that term to describe
Speaker 2: something that would be a good single, a song that
Speaker 2: would help to sell, to move units, sell albums, sell CDs, cassettes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were definitely poking fun at themselves, but also
Speaker 1: with the industry as a whole. The title is a
Speaker 1: reference to Smells Like Teen Spirit and it's takeover of
Speaker 1: the music industry and the labels desire to manufacture more.
Speaker 1: Nirvana's more Smells like teen Spirits. Another track on side
Speaker 1: too that is just it. It's fury and it is
Speaker 1: the sound that being wanted moving forward. Side one is
Speaker 1: is it has almost all, with the exception of Sentence
Speaker 1: Apprentice radio friendly tracks, and then you get Decide to
Speaker 1: Sentence Apprentice along with very Milk.
Speaker 2: It challenged the fans who were fans of Nirvana simply
Speaker 2: because of the radio friendly songs.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I think it was Chris no Noselach when they
Speaker 1: were trying to come up with an album opener, which
Speaker 1: eventually became Serve of the Servants. He wanted to be
Speaker 1: advocated for radio friendly unit Shifter, and he basically said,
Speaker 1: let's start the album in a crazy way and scare
Speaker 1: the crap of all those small girls and their parents.
Speaker 2: And the high school quarterbacks with the letter jacket that
Speaker 2: he used to say, see a concerts that would never
Speaker 2: talk to him when he was in high school. Turette's
Speaker 2: barely over a minute long, almost completely chaotic, and here
Speaker 2: we go again, right, this is challenging the mainstream listener.
Speaker 2: The title has generated discussion for years. Did Court ever
Speaker 2: explain why he chose touretts and how should listeners interpret
Speaker 2: it today?
Speaker 1: It's a song that you I challenge anyone to sit
Speaker 1: there and understand what he's saying. But I think it
Speaker 1: just supposed to do it as an anger and aggression
Speaker 1: as well, with the world surrounding him in his way
Speaker 1: to just angrily, uh, put it all out there. But
Speaker 1: it's another track on side to that just hammers the
Speaker 1: listener across the head. Tourette's debuted at Reading in ninety two,
Speaker 1: and it's an incredible reading. Ninety two is when one
Speaker 1: of Girvana's most famous shows, and Tourette's on that particular
Speaker 1: night is a standout moment. It just the crowds are heredy,
Speaker 1: going crazy for the band, and when Turetts began nobody
Speaker 1: nobody heard it before, but it became one of the
Speaker 1: standout moments of the night.
Speaker 2: In All Apologies closes out In Uterrel closes the album
Speaker 2: on a remarkably peaceful note after those tracks. I didn't
Speaker 2: know it was inspired by the Beatles Norwegian Wood. That's
Speaker 2: very cool. Kurt had that song, the Beatles song on
Speaker 2: loop while he was composing the song in nineteen ninety.
Speaker 2: That's kind of stuff you get in this book as well.
Speaker 2: The song has often been interpreted as an apology to
Speaker 2: Courtney Love, to Francis the Daughter, or even to his audience.
Speaker 2: Where do you land on its meeting?
Speaker 1: Well, again, it's a song that was written well before
Speaker 1: never mind, and so you can't interpret it as an
Speaker 1: apology to Corney Love or Francis because they were part
Speaker 1: of his life at that point. He but in the
Speaker 1: long run, it's clear that it acts as a a
Speaker 1: swan song to everyone around him, his family, his audience
Speaker 1: perfectly what it truly is about. I guess it's for
Speaker 1: the man to tell us.
Speaker 2: Find the bookdown rock website at booked on rock dot com.
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Speaker 2: It's all at booked on Rock dot com. So the
Speaker 2: book gets into one of the biggest myths surrounding in Utero,
Speaker 2: the idea that Steve Albanie's version was rejected and the
Speaker 2: label fixed the album. For years, the story has been
Speaker 2: that Geffen forced Nirvana to change in Utero. Where does
Speaker 2: the truth actually lie between the band's own concerns, Steve
Speaker 2: Albini's philosophy, and the labels expect patients.
Speaker 1: Almost immediately after the band left the studio Goo, they became.
Speaker 1: They questioned the outcome, their label questioned the outcome, and
Speaker 1: it became clear to everyone that something needed to be done.
Speaker 1: Even though they loved the results, their uncertainty, along with
Speaker 1: the uncertainty of those around them, made it clear that
Speaker 1: there needed to be some changes. So Curt and Chris
Speaker 1: approached Steve Albini about remix options, and Albini was he
Speaker 1: wasn't having it. He had indicated in his original letter
Speaker 1: to the band that he he was not gonna remix
Speaker 1: songs at the behest of the label, which exactly was
Speaker 1: exactly what, or partially what this became the label's desire
Speaker 1: to step in and and kind of get some changes.
Speaker 1: He didn't want any part of it, and he stuck
Speaker 1: to his guns, and he eventually handed the masters over
Speaker 1: so the band could do with what they wanted to.
Speaker 1: The band did not want to change the entire album.
Speaker 1: They they were happy with the results. They didn't want
Speaker 1: some aspects of the album to be changed. They felt
Speaker 1: the vocals were we're not right, and then they they
Speaker 1: needed some radio friendly tracks. They they they knew they
Speaker 1: had to appease the label somewhat. They even though they
Speaker 1: wanted to make a certain record. They knew this record
Speaker 1: had to sell. They needed to sell the record so
Speaker 1: and in competing with their previous album, they did not
Speaker 1: have a standout track like they did never Mind. So
Speaker 1: it became clear that in order to get those tracks
Speaker 1: ready for MTV, ready for radio, they needed to enlist
Speaker 1: another producer, again, not to remix the entire album, but
Speaker 1: to remix songs that the band felt could be radio friendly,
Speaker 1: and those became Heart Shaped Box and All Apologies. Scott Litt,
Speaker 1: who the band were they were fans of and actually
Speaker 1: considered as an option for never Mind, agreed to come
Speaker 1: in and remix Heart Shape Box and All Apologies. Steve
Speaker 1: Albini obviously was not happy about this. It created some
Speaker 1: back and forth within the media and but the results
Speaker 1: and I'm sure many fans of the band have done this.
Speaker 1: You can sit and listen to Albanie's original and original
Speaker 1: and the differences are minor. There's a guitar a a
Speaker 1: solo on the Albini version that is pretty rough, and
Speaker 1: the band they were torn about that. Chris Novsel wanted
Speaker 1: it completely out, he wanted it reworked. Car Cobain, along
Speaker 1: with Albani, wanted it in they wanted that anti establishment
Speaker 1: sound which was primarily on the second half of the album,
Speaker 1: but eventually it was removed and uh bylet and what
Speaker 1: you hear now on FM radio is the Scott lit
Speaker 1: version along with All Apologies. The All Apologies version which
Speaker 1: is on the radio now is the.
Speaker 2: Scott Lit version and Hard shape Box Heart.
Speaker 1: Shape Box and All Apologies Scott Lit remastered. And those
Speaker 1: are the two tracks that from ninety three on that
Speaker 1: we hear on the video Heart shape Box video and
Speaker 1: on FM radio. Those are the Scott lib versions.
Speaker 2: But not on the actual album version.
Speaker 1: That not on the album right, but the yes, the
Speaker 1: the album that was released in stores. Those are the
Speaker 1: only two tracks that were remastered the original. The other
Speaker 1: ten tracks appearing on the album are Steve Albini produced
Speaker 1: tracks and those were not modified.
Speaker 2: The book Down Rock podcast is part of the Boneless
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Speaker 2: you want to be Listen with confidence and you quote
Speaker 2: Kurt in the book saying, in uteral felt like the
Speaker 2: last chapter of the band's three chord grunge music. What
Speaker 2: do you think chapter two of Nirvana might have sounded
Speaker 2: like if Kurt had been given that chance to write it.
Speaker 1: He was tired of the three chord rock and he
Speaker 1: was a fan of new wave, and he wanted to
Speaker 1: gravitate towards that sound, towards a more experimental sound, and
Speaker 1: he made reference to doing that. And there's a very
Speaker 1: interesting interview, and I don't think I referenced it in
Speaker 1: the book, but in ninety three December of ninety three,
Speaker 1: he's interviewed by MTV and he's asked that question, what
Speaker 1: is your what's your hope moving forward? And he said
Speaker 1: the Beatles went from I Want to hold your hand
Speaker 1: to Sergeant Pepper, and he envisioned that massive or that
Speaker 1: significant progression for his own band. Unfortunately it never got
Speaker 1: to that, but it was clear he wanted to get
Speaker 1: away from the sound of the first three albums. And
Speaker 1: I think a hint of what was to come as
Speaker 1: well would would be Unplugged. I think he he eventually
Speaker 1: would have been a solo artist and play even folks
Speaker 1: by music.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was also talking about a possible project with
Speaker 2: Michael Stipe.
Speaker 1: Yes, and I think he in the weeks and months
Speaker 1: before his death that was in the works.
Speaker 2: They never entered the studio though, Man, what that would
Speaker 2: have sounded like. Yeah, that would have been interesting because
Speaker 2: he'd be all of the copycats would be out there,
Speaker 2: and he wouldn't even be making music that sounded anywhere
Speaker 2: close to what he created, while all the other bands,
Speaker 2: you know, like Silver Chair and bands like that, would
Speaker 2: be out and he would already be moving on to
Speaker 2: something else. Yeah. Well, last question. If someone has spent
Speaker 2: the last thirty years thinking of an Eutero simply as
Speaker 2: the album before Kurt died, what do you hope they'll
Speaker 2: hear differently after they read your book.
Speaker 1: Those who are familiar with Turvana, they immediately go to
Speaker 1: never Mind. It's the go to I think in euro
Speaker 1: is to go to It's my personal, uh, personally, my
Speaker 1: favorite album by any band, by Nirvana. It's been my
Speaker 1: favorite album since the day was released. It's uh. It
Speaker 1: speaks about a band and about a songwriter who inspired
Speaker 1: a generation was obviously going through turmoil, and you can
Speaker 1: hear it. I've you know listened to that album. I
Speaker 1: couldn't even begin to in estimate how many times. And
Speaker 1: I'm always getting new things out of it, hearing new
Speaker 1: new sounds, interpreting lyrics differently than I may have the
Speaker 1: previous week. But it's if if a new fan is
Speaker 1: interested in Nirvana and exploring music and exploring their music,
Speaker 1: I would start with a utero mm hmm.
Speaker 2: Yeah. The mark of every great piece of art. You
Speaker 2: can listen to it and here's something different, something you
Speaker 2: hadn't heard five years on the road, ten years down
Speaker 2: the road, who knows how you're going to be listening
Speaker 2: to it.
Speaker 1: Then you even need to the tracks that didn't appear
Speaker 1: on the album. To me, there they could easily have
Speaker 1: appeared on the album and it wouldn't have skipped a beat. Sappy,
Speaker 1: I ate myself. I want to die. Those are two
Speaker 1: tracks that I think are they're they're just as they
Speaker 1: could appear on the album, as you know, a thirteenth
Speaker 1: and track, and it would would not take away from
Speaker 1: the impact of the album.
Speaker 2: Was you Know You're Right? Which ended up on their
Speaker 2: Best of Was that from those sessions?
Speaker 1: No, that that was recorded in their final session in
Speaker 1: January ninety four. That was the only track to come
Speaker 1: out of that particular session. As during the promotional phase
Speaker 1: of in Utero, you know, Kirk Cobain was making statements
Speaker 1: about the band getting away from that sound of the
Speaker 1: first three records, So that was their first attempt to
Speaker 1: get in the studio and maybe implement that plan. To me,
Speaker 1: it's it's a step in. It clearly was a step
Speaker 1: towards a new sound, and unfortunately it was the only
Speaker 1: song that came out of that session.
Speaker 2: Last Stand in Utero in the final days of Nirvana.
Speaker 2: Release date July ninth, So by the time you're hearing
Speaker 2: this or watching this video, the book is out. Find
Speaker 2: out wherever books are sold. You can look forward at
Speaker 2: your nearest bookstore. You can find your nearest independent bookstore
Speaker 2: by going to book rock dot com, and Robert people
Speaker 2: can find you online. You're on Instagram, I.
Speaker 1: Know that right, Yes, I do have an Instagram account,
Speaker 1: and it's a reference to the title of my first
Speaker 1: book about Nirvana, Nirvana Before the Storm, and I updated
Speaker 1: regularly with links to my first book in this book
Speaker 1: and also past Nirvana moments. So it's it's just a
Speaker 1: celebration of the band. But it also it's also given
Speaker 1: me the opportunity to kind of get my work out
Speaker 1: there and you know, here's some things and some good
Speaker 1: things and you know, maybe some bad things too well.
Speaker 2: I love this book. This is another great read from
Speaker 2: Nirvana fans. And I encourage everybody to go out and
Speaker 2: get before the Storm if you haven't yet. And Robert,
Speaker 2: thank you so much. I'll put a link to your
Speaker 2: Instagram account on the show notes so people can click
Speaker 2: on that and reach out to you if they'd like.
Speaker 2: Robert Boyd, thanks so much, Thank you very much.
Speaker 1: That's it. It's in the books. Yeah,