Speaker 1: What is up, Fellowsicho's I am Damn Valley coming at
you with Morganson of the NBA podcast, Fame, of Good Sports,
Fame and of Forbes his fame.
Speaker 2: As well as of course Only Man Select. We're here
to talk about two NBA playoff series.
Speaker 1: Grant and I will have more on Rockets or excuse
me sorry, Rockets fans, Timberwolves versus Warriors, as well as
Nicks versus Celtics.
Speaker 2: We'll have that up for you on Wednesday.
Speaker 1: But as we go into this Tuesday, where we have
some critical games for everybody involved, we're going to talk
about the Cavs versus the Pacers and.
Speaker 2: The Nuggets versus the Thunder.
Speaker 1: Let's begin.
Speaker 2: We're actually first more, how the heck are you doing?
Speaker 3: Doing well? Doing well?
Speaker 4: As a fat person? I shouldn't be saying this, but
I'm very happy because I just had cake.
Speaker 1: First of all, you're not fat, give yourself more credit,
but I did. I can confirm that you did just
have cake because when we pop on, you said I'm eating.
Speaker 2: Cake, and then you proceeded to eat cake.
Speaker 3: So I did congress unapologetically. Really yes, it's the only
way to eat cake.
Speaker 2: So kudos. To you. Let's dive in here.
Speaker 1: Calves versus Pacers more playing out exactly like I did
not expect, as someone who picked Calves in five, who
has said very nice things about the Pacers, but I
thought that highly of the Calves.
Speaker 2: They now find themselves down three to one.
Speaker 1: As we record this. Before I throw it to you,
Don Mitchell did say he didn't play in the second
half of Game four. The Calves are calling it an
ankle injury. People are wondering if had anything to do
with the calf that was bothering him. Initially he called
it an ankle injury. After the game, he did say
that he would see everybody on Tuesday, indicating that he
would play. We have not had the results yet as
we record this of the MRI that we know he's
going to receive, So that is looming over everything, of course,
as is the Darius Garland big toe injury. Taris Halburton
has been battling a wrist injury. The series has been
pretty physical and the Calves are kind of sort of
complaining about it. Where are you just at with this
Calves Pacers series?
Speaker 3: Oh man, Look, let's start with the Calves.
Speaker 4: This was a team that did everything right in course
in the over the course of the regular shoots and
the in terms of like workloads, like Kenny Atkinson went
in and said, look, we're not going to have these
guys play you know New York Nicks minutes.
Speaker 3: These guys are are going to.
Speaker 4: Play in there in the late twenties, early thirties of
minutes to keep them fresh, to keep them healthy. But look,
the injury bug has just hit them at the worst
opportune time. I know there are people out there who
are asking, well, what should the Calves do if they're
getting bounced in the second round major changes ahead, Like no, no,
this this is like an injury thing. Like I'm not
going to sit here and say that they like Surety
Fire Lee would have won this series if they'd been healthy.
Like I'm not gonna sit here and say that, because
the Pacers have been incredible and they deserve every ounce
of credit going their way. But like, let's not pretend
as if not having Darius Garland for two games wasn't
going to affect you. Let's not pretend as if missing
DeAndre Hunter and Evan Mopley in a game which they
lost as well, isn't going to affect the entire course
of the series. So it's it's just I'm just disappointed.
I'm disappointed on their behalf. I'm disappointed as an observer.
I think this shitty timing of injuries is just, oh,
it's it's a it punched to the gut. So that's
that's what I'm left with with the feeling after these
for four games.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's I do wonder because there I do
think that this is a series that the Pacers are.
Speaker 2: Like they are winning.
Speaker 1: This isn't just about the Cavs dealing with injuries, but
when you look at some of the things that have happened,
Darius Garland kind of said this about himself, where he's
only two games into his return from injuries, still kind
of figuring out, and specifically in that Game three, it
looked like he was trying to figure out how to
move and that's a game that they ended up winning.
Complaints coming out of Game four. Did the Cavaliers stay
in zone too much before they adjusted or they not
make enough adjustments? I think that's probably fair criticism, But
in the back of my mind, I'm sort of wondering,
well's not just easier? Is that an easier way to
defend now because of the Darius Garland toe injury and
if you were worried before his ankle injury about Donovan
Mitchell's CAF, like, is that just the easier way, like
for that to be more of your base defense. There's
also some things in here. I mean, you're not getting
like the Ti Jerome falling off a cliff hurts you
right now.
Speaker 2: The trickle down effect for.
Speaker 1: Cleveland is and I've seen a lot of people kind
of bring up like this is why you shouldn't have
traded Kris Lavert. I will maintain I respect the hell
out of what the Cavaliers did by trading for DeAndre Hunter.
That is someone who filled more of a need that
they had at the time. You can't look at this
and say Ti Jerome fell off a cliff, even Mobile
was injured for a minute. Now, Donovan Mitchell's injured and
Darius Garland is not operating at one hundred percent to
be like they need more creation and ball handling. It's
no If these guys were healthy, that's not an issue,
and you can't if we would if they didn't have
DeAndre Hunter, would you have felt as good about their
base playoff defense because we've already seen like you know,
Sam Merril's not gonna be it all the time, so
to and like Dean Wade like how often can how
healthy is he to play? But how many minutes can
you play him when he actually is? Like what can
you max him out?
Speaker 2: As?
Speaker 1: So I respect the hell out of what Cleveland did overall,
I think that this is I want to we have
to focus on the injury thing for a little bit
long before getting into the pacers. But I agree with
you that I don't want to get into a Cavs
post mortem short of them just entering the Giannis Attentacumbo
discussion and deciding no, like this makes more sense to
have Giannis and Donovan Mitchell as sort of the two
Let's catch these guys in Stone and that's our timeline.
I don't know why you would overreact. I know you're
getting expensive, but like that's the entire point of you
ducking attacks this past year, and I do if anything,
it's you can just get frustrated by you said at
the top of this. This feels like a team that
did everything right when you look at the minutes, management
of its players, the depth that it had and like
injuries are just kind of creeping up on them now.
Speaker 2: The stuff.
Speaker 1: It does feel like, I will say that they've gotten
punked a little bit here. They had to start of
the series. It felt like they were just shocked at
how fast Indiana was playing, even though we all know.
What's one thing that everyone, the most casual fan basketball
fan knows about Indiana that they play fast. And so
the Calves seeming off guard by that to start the
series not good. Some of the slow starts in this
series terrible, and like, you can't blame that one on
injuries in Game four, specifically, when you have your full
slate of players available to start. Is there anything else though,
just sort of on the Cavaliers front, whether it's adjustments
or the Donovan Mitchell injury looms over this. The Calves
are done if Donovan Mitchell is out or at seventy
percent instead of one hundred percent. I think Darius Garland's
playmaking is so important, but the way that Donovan Mitchell
can score and just the amount of defensive attention he
can suck in there, you can't replace that with anybody
on this roster right now.
Speaker 4: Right well, outside of injuries, the results is just a component.
Speaker 3: They're not hitting shots.
Speaker 4: I mean, look, at the end of the day, that's
of an important thing in basketball, right right, Ty Jerome
hitting fifteen percent from three, major, major issue, or in
just twenty seven percent overall, that's not going to cut it. Obviously,
we know Garland is limited, So twenty five percent from three,
forty point nine percent overall, that's not going to cut it.
Even Donovan Mitchell twenty two percent from three. Yeah, not
getting it done on that end of the floor. DeAndre
Hunter as well, forty three percent from the floor, twenty
two percent from three. It's they're just also missing jump shots.
And we can say that the Pacers.
Speaker 1: Well can actually interject there for one minute, is that
they're not just missing jump shots, like these are jump
shots that even the ones they're supposed to make. So
in the regular season they shoot forty two percent on
wide open threes. In this series against Indiana, they're shooting
under twenty eight percent.
Speaker 2: On wide open threes.
Speaker 1: And that's that I'm not even that's not semi open.
Like I get a little sketchy when it comes to
the four to six feet stuff. If you're dealing with
a taller player with a smaller player.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: If I have an NBA player four feet away from me,
my shots getting blocked would be my point. So the
six plus feet of room when they're at under twenty
eight percent from the series. So sorry to interject from
you there, but like those are shots that you just say.
It's the same thing with Boston, Like you're almost sort
of waiting and I don't this doesn't necessarily align with
the law of like, oh that like it has to
progress to a mean but you are sort of waiting
them to be like, well, hit the fucking shots that
you hit throughout the regular season.
Speaker 3: Yep, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 4: And by the way, kudos to you for the confidence
of believing you would even get a shot off against
an NBA player.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very much like how many points would you
win off Serena Williams and tennis and someone saying I
get one?
Speaker 2: No, you would, No, you would.
Speaker 4: Look, that's the thing people don't seem to recognize when
people say I can get a bucket on a NBA player, Dude,
you can't even get a shot off, Like that's that's
the thing. You can't even you can't even get a
real live Holt.
Speaker 1: It's tempt If they gave me like twelve feet of space,
I feel like I could get a shot off before
they blocked it. Right, Okay, that's now, it's that shot
going in. Is it going to be an airball? It's
more likely to be an airball, but maybe I wouldn't
get blocked. But that's like it's the Serena Williams thing
where it's how many points would you win against Serena Williams?
And my response would be, well she double faulting at all?
And if the answer is no, then the answer zero.
Speaker 3: I'm just wondering which NBA player is going to give
you twelve feet?
Speaker 1: Who like? Well, the Bucks like will pull, like if
brook Lopez on the floor, they play in a ton
of drop, Like maybe that'll that's the team.
Speaker 3: Well, they're playing drop because they want to avoid the drive.
Speaker 4: I don't think even a bad defensive player would not
be would not really be afraid of you driving or
me driving on them?
Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 1: Well, I feel like they might spot me twelve feet
the shell of their defense. All five players should be like,
what's a is there such thing as like a zero
five zone?
Speaker 2: So like they just have five gotch.
Speaker 3: Well that'd be good.
Speaker 4: No so, but yeah, like the shooting things obviously, I
mean if they regretted the or not regretted to the
means like if they come back to the norm, then
we'll have a series dance. I truly believe that. But
they seem shell shot. They seem to be like, what
the hell just hit us? Like we're down one to three?
How did we get here?
Speaker 3: Right? It feels like the start of any like teenage
movie movie, like.
Speaker 4: This is how I got here. You might be wondering
what's happening? But this here's my story. This team is
just they got kicked in the teeth, not once, not twice,
three times, and they're still trying to shake it off.
It does not bote well. And again this speaks to
the Pacers, and it speaks to your point about this
isn't just injuries. This is the Pacers actually winning this thing,
because yes, they very much are. They are running, they're
taking quick shots, they are moving the ball, they are
attacking the class.
Speaker 3: They are relentless.
Speaker 4: Look, we have to like dedicate at least ten minutes
to that ridiculous like put back by Aaron E. Smith
in was that game two of the off the missed
free fro.
Speaker 1: There's a lane violation, Like, come on, that's okay. There's
never a lane violation other than on that play. Okay,
that's the only lane violation I've ever seen go on
call this year to clear all.
Speaker 3: Right, what he did was still enormously impressive.
Speaker 4: That was That was really one of those, oh he's
got that dog in him type of plays where I
don't think anyone really necessarily at least not from a
national perspective, thought, oh, Aaron E. Smith is that guy
for us who are a little bit in the weeds
on a lot of teams here in the NBA. Yeah,
we kind of knew he's that type of dude for
him to do that at that moment, though, did not
see that coming. They just keep pushing back. Whenever they
you try to put a fight to the pacers, they
keep finding back and they come out on top. Is
there some level of shooting luck involved for them? Hard
to say, because I don't think that they're out there going,
you know, two thousand and one, Vince Carter against Philadelphia
knocking down nine to threes. I think it's ball movement,
it's open shots. They're finding open guys that they're making
a play for each other instead of like Isoing, not
saying that the Caps are only Isoing, but they've had
to go to Mitchell Isoing a ton because lack of
availability from other players.
Speaker 3: So there's just.
Speaker 4: Complete team cohesion with the Pacers that we've talked about
so many times on this podcast all throughout the year,
and it's showing itself again, which is just super impressive.
So it's tough for me to sit here as well
and just go, oh, Pacer or Oral Caps, you should
have beaten these guys like in a sweep, like no, no,
Like they were always going to be a tough team
to beat, And turns out a little too tough there.
Speaker 1: And we've talked a lot about their depth, but their
ability to kind of wield it and make adjustments when
you and I know this is something it's not that
it's new and in vogue, but what does everyone kind
of harp on now just winning the possession battle in
these games? And they go out and it's, oh, they
really haven't won the possession battle through these first even
though they hold the series lead, Like they haven't just
dominated the possession battle, right, they just go out and
dominate that possession battle. When you look at what did
they take like twenty something more shots than Cleveland in
that game, I believe I'll have to double check that.
So like their ability to just do then a lot
of that comes from, you know, their ability to force turnovers,
and it's they're gonna have players that are picking up
that's and by.
Speaker 2: The way, that's the other part of this.
Speaker 1: If you're injured or half hobbled your bat let's just say,
your back court's not at like entirely full strength, and
you have the pacers just deciding to pick you up,
like if it's not ninety four feet like eighty six
feet or some shit. That's that's harrowing too, And like
they're just you know, Rick Carlisle and just the personnel's
ability to hit those buttons. And then to get to
a point where it's like, look at what Miles Turner
did in game four. Look at what the minutes that
you're able to carve out from Obi Toppin in some
of these stretches. Yeah, that is I think I've actually
posed this to you, and I hate repeating myself, but
I almost wonder if, like depth, it might be the
new playoff market inefficiency where if you want it, it's
not just about it's like limiting your weak points. And
I thought the Calves would have fallen under this bucket,
though maybe they're just so injured at the top to
where it's oh Siakam and Haliburton were this banged up,
they would be running into the same issue. So I
don't I think they could still fall under that umbrella.
But the number of their weak points, and I also
think that that's why, you know, that's part of why
you make the trade for DeAndre Hunters, Like you're trying
to limit your defensive weak points that you could press
at the Calves still, like they kind of have some
of those, especially just by virtue of the backcourt being
smaller and now not at full strength. And the Pacers,
I think you could well, like look at some of
their players if you're getting Obie top in minutes. And
we know Benned mcmathrin, who I think everybody who doesn't
play for the Pacers wants to punch in the face
right now, he seems like he's turning into that type
of player. They have some spotty issues there, but it's
they just have a lot of guys where it's no
like you're not gonna go pick on them. And yeah,
Halliburton might be one of them, but if you get
into a matchup of trying to seek out Haliburton every time,
I think the Pacers are good about insulating him to
where that's just not ideal. And then you're kind of
running yourself out of your bit, like you don't want
to fall over in love with targeting these guys. And
by the way, that was from Game four, like kind
of my biggest takeaway was they decided this really hasn't
been a Pascal Siakam offensive series just yet. This is
gonna be the game that it's a Pascal Siakam offensive
game and they're able to do that. And finally, before
I throw it back to you, it's not just about
them playing fast, and I think this is just something
that's been underrated about them even before the Siakam trade,
but definitely since the Siakam trade. They don't need like
if if they need to face a set defense, they
don't freaking care, Like they just have the ability and
the weapons to go after especially I mean playoff Andrew Nemhart.
On top of adding Siakam alongside Tyree s Halliburton. There's
just so many different ways that they can beat you
at both ends of the floor, and I think we've
kind of seen them for and I know people are
gonna point to, oh, the Pacers are so lucky, Like
the Bucks were injured two years in a row and
now Cleveland's banged up again. There's luck involved in every
single playoff push, even when you're not injured. I mean,
like this Celtics or let's use the Celtics Knicks those
first two games as an example. Boston is just missing
a metric ton of threes that they normally hit. I know,
Porzingis wasn't one hundred percent. Jalen Browns dealing with Neil
knee stuff, Everyone's dealing with me stuff at this point.
I think it's an insult to what the Cavaliers did
during the regular season and also an insult to the
Pacers to just say, oh, this is just Darius Garland
and Dono Mitchell, even m.
Speaker 2: Mobile haven't been fully healthy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's part of it. But the other part of
it is the bigger part, and that's the Pacers have
just they have been you know, Rick Carlisle laughed when
I guess the Cow. He was relayed to him that
the Cows were talking about how physical the Pacers are playing.
That's kind of like another wrinkle of this team where
it's I have not watched the Pacers for much of
this season and thought, oh.
Speaker 2: They're just so physical, Like that's not a team.
Speaker 1: But the fact that they could play that way or
make another team field they're playing that way, Maybe that
says more about the Cavaliers, is just like their sort
of postseason toughness or how injured they are there like
Indiana being able to kind of beat up on them
and half court like even as someone who considered themselves
at least in the know of the Pacers or a
Pacers appreciator, not necessarily something I would have thought coming
into this year's like, oh, that's that's something they're asolutely
gonna do. But it's oh, coming out of Game four,
Jared Allen's face is on a milk carton and Evan
Mobley can seem overmatch with sometimes the ways that they're
what they're doing half court defensively.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's look.
Speaker 4: I mean for them to actually have that physical scalability
is also not on my That was not on my
Bengal card either, Like if you were to ask me
before the season, for example, like how are the Pacers playing,
I would have sat there more a finesse team than
a physical team.
Speaker 3: Turns out they're both. You know it.
Speaker 4: They keep reminding me of this was like the post
best era of the Suns, Like you remember the seven
seconds or less offense that they had then they got shacked.
Then they called it seven seconds or shack. That's one
of the best names for an offense. But the Pacers
are kind of doing that, but they don't have a name.
It's not like seven seconds or Haliburton or Siakam or whoever,
Like it's just a combination. It's basically, well, if we
don't score within seven seconds, we just go to a
half court and we execute the hell out of it.
And that to me has been a huge eye opener
over the course of the season, that they're sort of
just so stable that you can't sit there and go, oh, well,
they are only a transition team. They're only good when
they run. They're only good when you know, they force
a steal or whatever. No, no, no, no, no. They
when you lock down and you're like, no, we're gonna
guard the basket. For twenty four full seconds. They can
still score on your ass. That makes a huge difference.
And they have so many weapons too. Like Matherin only
playing eighteen minutes per game this series. I know that
he got bounced what was two minutes into that one
one minute even one or two very early, so that's affected.
But he's a guy who can get to the free
throw line, for example, Like when they need something, they
can tell him, go get us free FROs, like let's
do something here. When they need spacing elements, oh yeah,
they can put Miles Turner and aaron Ne Smith and
Tyrese Halliburton and Andrew Nemhard or whoever in there in
the start or in the rotation, and then you have
a space out floor. If you want to go athletic
and powerful, well there's Obi Topp and there's Benedic Mathrine Health,
aaron Ne Smith.
Speaker 3: There are so.
Speaker 4: Many constellations to this roster that just sort of fits
like a wide palette of playing styles. And I'll be
fully honest with you, I did not appreciate this until
like maybe Christmas. I was a little slow on that
because I wasn't short it was sustainable. I got thought,
all right, that could just be a blip, but they
started winning. I was like, hmm, there's more to this
team than just running. They're actually doing this like consistently.
They're creating looks, they're getting they're getting these actions in
place with set defenses. So the offense is is there
and then they just kind of build on it defensively, Dan, Like,
where the fuck did that come from?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they were like a top ten defense for
more than half the season, and so you talk about like, oh,
you can't like you can't read too much into these trends,
and it's like, well, what the trends reached fifty games.
That's more so the status quote than a trend for them.
And yeah, I just don't even know what I would
have to add other than to clarify if they took
twenty three more shots than the Calves in Game four,
they also had they were a plus twelve in the
turnover battle, So twenty two turnovers for Cleveland versus which
you have to credit ind these defense for versus ten
for the Pacers. When you're gonna win the possession battle
by that amount, Like, it just doesn't matter that Cleveland
attempted twice as many free throws as it forty versus
twenty as Indy and then you kind of, you know,
you factor in like the differential from three as well,
And I'm just I'm gonna be interesting to the extent
like how can is there anything that you're looking to see?
Like how can the Cavaliers adjust? Assuming it's not even
assuming that they're healthy, because they're not. But if Donovan
Mitchell plays like is there is it just a hit
more shots? But it's definitely a take care of the
ball where there's like I hate to boil it down
to that, Oh, this is a make or miss league
and you need to protect possession, but they probably need
to figure out a way to do that. And I
will say, like, maybe you get to different like if
Jared Allen hasn't giving you anything, then maybe it's just
trying to get it's time.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's time to get away from Jared. I hate
saying that.
Speaker 1: I don't consider Jared awn that type of player, but
Game four was I don't want to say no show,
but it was close to. It was as close to
a no show as you can get at the very least,
So maybe that's.
Speaker 2: Something they do.
Speaker 1: But the way the Pacers are playing right now, and
then given the context of what's happening with Cleveland's health,
I don't I don't know what the adjustment is other
than well, let's start by maybe hitting some wide open
three pointers and not losing the possession hit to such
an extreme.
Speaker 4: Hit more shots. It's usually a pretty good strategy. There's
more to it, though, I agree with you. There's more
to it than just that. It's got to be matching
their physicality, like indy physicality, like you said it at
the top with DeAndre Hunter, who's.
Speaker 3: A big ass player.
Speaker 4: He's a big ass like you need him to go
in and establish a physical presence, like he's six eight
two twenty five, two thirty maybe even two thirty five.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 4: Those weights never really get adjusted, but like he's up there,
like he's a big human being with skill on ball,
off ball. He can shoot a bit, he can get
to the basket. Like you have to ask DeAndre Hunter
as even Isicca Coro too, who's like really like that
dude is built. The bigger, stronger wings on that team
needs to go in instet a tone like yeah, all right,
you're trying to push us around. We're going to do
the exact same thing to you, Like, it has to
be a dogfight. You're playing for survival right now. So
that's one thing we're talking about. The shooting. Obviously, we
need them to shoot better, but we also need to
get them the right type of shots. A quick trigger
Donovan Mitchell like having to sort of shoot over two
players not a good shot. We need to figure out,
like if you're if you're the Cavalisan, then they need
to figure out way to get those shots in rhythm.
Move a little bit more off ball, install some of
those things. Because it's been a little eye so heavy
because of the injuries. But if everyone's available in game five,
you gotta play as a cohesive unit. Because the way
that they played over the course of the regular season
and even in the first round obviously against Miami, it's
not how they're playing right now. Right now, they're like, Okay,
we're relying on Donovan to just kind of create everything
for us. You can't do that. You gotta share the ball, Yeah,
gotta set each other up. You got to make sure
that everyone's like passing in their round.
Speaker 1: And by the way, we're saying all this too, coming
off a game which they shot forty percent from three.
It's a lot of like the work that Donovan Mitchell's
had to go through for his shots for most of
this series, with the exception of Game three, which they won.
I think Darius Garland and ever moably coming back, it
just streamlines his life there.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 1: And the one thing I'll be not the one thing,
but something I'll be just be monitoring for the Pacers
is do they go back to just a lot of
those early Pascal Siakam actions And it's just so earlier
in the series. Through those first three games he was
averaging about thirty six point six touches in the front
court per thirty six minutes. He was at a rate
in Game four of fifty three front court touches per
thirty six minutes, and so he didn't have to play
as many obviously, but like getting him the ball, getting
him involved, and maybe trying to punish Cleveland's defense, especially
when it's set in that way, I think does like
a lot of good for them. And by the way,
we've probably been given him enough credit. I know he
has some big shots in this series, like the ability
for Tyre's Haliburton to just be like Kitlin Cooper used
the word a lot over Bessell short it was like
just a decoy on the ball off the like being
able to use him as a decoy. That's not something
that you can do with every primary offensive driver in
the league, Like you can't do that with Luca, or
you don't do that with Luca, you don't do that
with Like. It's just the fact that Tyre's Haliburton can
do that. It's closer to Steph Curry ESK than like
other of these like traditional four generals.
Speaker 3: He's overrated, Dan remember to be fair.
Speaker 1: And maybe I've mentioned this on the podcast The Math
on that Works. That's like a dozen players.
Speaker 3: I know it.
Speaker 4: I know it's just taking a whole life of its own.
But obviously he's not. I agree. It's he's such a
weird player to me, like you have to figure him
out first before you kind of appreciate him.
Speaker 3: Because I was like, he's so good. I wanted more
of him.
Speaker 4: I've said this to you repeatedly over the course of
the seas and I was like, no, I need more
of him. I need him to get up to that
twenty six twelve line he was at last year. He
needs to be that guy. He all right, he is
that guy despite not doing all those numbers. Somehow he
like because no one's going to give him that shot.
Everyone is treating him as they should, as if he
is that twenty six twelve guy. So it doesn't even
matter if he puts up the numbers. He just needs
to get the defense to like commit to guarding him
in different spots and that opens up sections elsewhere. This
team just runs so well. And look I covered them
in Paris back in January. They lost the Spurs in
the first game, and they came back and whooped them,
and you could tell during the pregame interview press conference
that they were just, yeah, oh we lost. We're kind
of going back, like, have you noticed how good we've
been lately? I think before then they've won like nine
out of their last ten or something along the sides.
Speaker 3: Like they were just they were completely at East.
Speaker 4: They were like, oh, yeah, no, we know what's going
to happen, and then they went out and executed the
ever living shit out of every action they kind of
decided to go with. So this team has so much
higher upside than I think most would believe or appreciate.
I could see this being a finals run.
Speaker 1: Man, I'm so ready for the jokes of people the
NBA off is freaking out when it's okay, see in
Indiana in the finals. If that happens, there's a lot
of a lot of good matchups on the table. The
too long, didn't listen or watch version of this is
the Calves are pretty injured, but the Indiana Pacers are
really fucking good.
Speaker 2: That's the that's the nutshell version of this.
Speaker 4: Before we move, Walt, I do have a question, so, like,
just from a purely entertainment ankle, would you not rather
have the Patiers and the Celtics in the finals.
Speaker 1: There's something I find compelling about a team trying to
defend its title on the actual final stage.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But if like stylistically speaking, if you're asking me,
like if I was just going for the aesthetics of
what would be the perfect finals matchup and also what
might be the most confusing finals matchup for me to cover,
it's probably Pacers versus the Wolves or the Nuggets, right
stylistically speaking.
Speaker 4: So stylistically I can't get there with with the Minnesota
Like yeah, I know, and it's ridiculous, but.
Speaker 1: Like, well, they're just huge where it's like, you know
what I mean, So, but yeah, you're right. So I
would probably say then that it would be the Nuggets
versus the Pacers.
Speaker 4: Pacers Nuggets would be basketball point. I would love that
the league would hate it, regardless of what they tell.
Speaker 1: You, now that you have Jokic in there, and it's
I think it's personally, I think it's good if you
want to it.
Speaker 2: This is not discussion.
Speaker 1: I expected to have exposed the national audience to these
teams that aren't getting as much shine, and I would
say the Pacers fall under a perfect bucket of that.
I think it's it's really awesome too that we're talking
about like, oh, this could be a finals run for them,
and it's you could talk about the lucky breaks. It
happens across every titles run, you get. I think, so
the Celtics they dominate last year, was it that they
were the only great team or that they didn't have
to face another great team aside from the Luca Mavericks
who no longer exists, and they still beat those dudes
in five games. So it's you could twist yourself into
a pretzel basically through every finals run for the most
part that there's luck involved. Let's talk some Nuggets Thunder
who this is another series. I mean, let's focus on
me being wrong. How can we make this about me more?
I picked You think I would have learned my lesson?
I picked the Clippers in five and then I picked
the Thunder in five. Okay, you just think I would
learn my lesson? The Nuggets jump out to a.
Speaker 2: Two to one lead.
Speaker 1: They had the lead in the fourth quarter at home
in Game four, with Jokic having maybe the worst three
game stretch of his prime, right like, it's close to
it in a position that where they could have won,
they didn't. I is it weird that I came away
from if we're looking at the fallout from Game four
moving forward, I came out of that game feeling worse
about both teams because I'm like, Oklahoma City's offensive process
is actually concerning, even because like when it's the non
Shay stuff and some of it is I think the
world of Ja Dubb. I think we're probably headed towards
the conversation maybe about Chet Holmgren and Jaylen Williams has shot.
By the way, Ja Dub one of fifteen on wide
open threes against the Nuggets, and it's like he's been
able to get some stuff going downhill, and he was
been key for them. So I probably feel a little
bit better about the thunder outside of Shaye than a
lot of other people. But I also I should have
given the people who were very concerned about it.
Speaker 2: I shouldn't have written it.
Speaker 1: Off and been like, oh no, this is so last year,
because there's clearly something there. And then with the Nuggets,
I find myself going, like, you've gotten like Christian Brown
this series, Aaron Gordon, like the supporting cast has done
its job too different degrees, like the Russell Westbrook offensive experience.
No thank you, still, I just can't. You're never gonna
sell me on it. But like he's done a lot
of stuff for them on defense. Yeah, and so I
can say, sit here, you're tied to too, and young
Jokich is like not having a good series by Yokich's standards.
But then I'm I'm looking at it and saying, he
just looks so damn gassed, and he has a right
to be. But then you also, just everyone went through
the regular season. I know he's carrying a heavy workload.
Then a lot of other people like you know, who
also carried an incredibly heavy workload on the offensive end.
Speaker 2: Shake gil is Alexander.
Speaker 1: He's not having a banner series from an efficiency perspective
by any stretch. But I'm just of watching this series.
I almost first of all, the first half of Game
four counts as a form of torture. That was just
the thundershot shot chart looked like the red wedding from
Game of Thrones. By the end of it, the fact
that they got their offense going at all, I just more,
can you make some sense of this series for me
before we get into bitty gritty That was my long
winded way of saying, hey, I'm confused.
Speaker 4: Well I am too, And look, whatever discussion you are
about like ramping up to have about chat holmgrewm count
me in. There needs to be a discussion at some
point soon, I think too.
Speaker 1: Would you trade him for a lightly used Mitchell Robinson.
Speaker 2: It's just my.
Speaker 4: Well, not that conversation. But all right, look this has
been ugly. I do agree that that that's the you
painted it so well, saying like we left game Game
four even more concerned for both parties. I think that
is the right way to look at it because yes, look,
I love the fact that the Thunder are having this series,
by the way, like this is a real test. This
is a team that where they are throwing everything at you, like, yeah,
you can argue that if they shoot better in the
first two games they win handedly, but they didn't, and
the team responded like they this is a dogfight. This
is a major dogfight right now, as it should be.
They're only going to be better, maybe not even this year.
Maybe it's gonna take a year for them to like Okay,
watch the tape, absorb it and realize, yeah, we have
to make adjustments to be better because we just we
can't be in a dogfight with a team where this
what the second my third highest paid player is shooting
like just go look forty one percent from the field.
Speaker 3: In Michael Corton Junior.
Speaker 1: He has like one I'm not you know, MPJ. I've
seen too many of his podcasts clips probably so I
have thoughts about MPJ the non basketball player, but he is,
to his credit, playing basically with one sh.
Speaker 4: He is he is, but like no, no, no, no,
don't don't get it twisted, Like I'm not saying that
there is no reason for it. But like when that
player is averaging eight and a half points per game,
like you're not getting the bank for the buck that
you need in the playoffs, which is unfortunate. Like obviously
he's banked up, Like that's not his fault, but that
means that so many other players on the roster have
to compensate make up for it. Whatever, Like Christian Brown, sorry,
all year shooting forty six percent from the field himself,
that's not getting it done. Yo, Kisches, you alluded to
thirty nine percent from the field twenty one of them.
Three this has been you're you're absolute right. This is
the worst stretch.
Speaker 1: They've given him room two from three and those looks
from above the break that he normally hits, he's missing
like there's no like he's shooting like twenty seven percent
on set and for him, like a semi open three
is that's a high quality three, So semi open and
just completely unguarded threes, those aren't going in. But as
other people I'm sure of pointed out now, is when
he does, you have, first of all, you have to
credit the okac's defense for sure, but when it does
feel like he's settling for those that's normally an indication
of Jokic is either banged up or super tired, and
I'm wondering if that's what we're dealing with through the
course of this series right.
Speaker 3: Now, Tire, Yes, I don't. I don't think he looks
banged up.
Speaker 4: I do think it's it's fatigue also, and I don't
want to be that this guy, and you, I think
you know me well enough to know that I don't
usually go on big like anti reference. I will say
this series has been poorly reffed in both sides. But
if I were to like choose one team that's gotten
a little bit of a benefit, it's the Thunder And
I'm not putting that on them, because look, Eddie, team
that gets the benefit of the doubt, they're gonna say
thank you, can I have some more, which they should,
so I'm not blaming them for that. But I think
it's been a pretty atrociously called series. Jokic is being
just torn down on every single play and there are
way too many non calls for me to like appreciate that.
And again, I also want to say this goes both ways.
Shae has also been hacked and slashed and ripped without
getting calls that annoys me, So, like refs covering this
game or do calling these games do a little better?
Speaker 1: What I So, I think it's probably fair to look
at that. But if like let's just use game four
as the example, I mean, jokish fourteen free throw atemps
versus SGA's twelve, is there just a big enough discrede
Like if you're saying it's been inconsistent, I guess I
would get, but like it if it hasn't been inconsistent
to one team's detriment, so to speak, that's kind of
a form of consistency.
Speaker 4: I guess you're right about that, but it's it just
irks me the wrong way that you know, he'll have
someone just pulling his shoulder down, no call, and the
same with Shaye where he gets slapped across the arms.
Like I understand what you're saying, Like free throw at
stems are sort of an evidence that yeah, okay, they're
still getting to the line, but it's also like on
non shooting fouls, like they're just getting hit a ton
where you can see their like losing balance, and it's like,
I just think it's an inconsistent line because then you
look at the regular season where it was different, you're
looking at the earlier round also different. It's just I
understand why players and coaches are a little bit confused
at like where are we right now? Like what are
we allowed to do? What are we not allowed to do?
Like what is fair? What is not fair? Uh So,
like I would like to see that series get cleaned
up just a little bit. From a red perspective, that
wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. But Joki's
just tired. And something I've picked up on this happened
in in LA. In the LA series as well. If
you get Jokich frustrated enough, he's going to clank both
three FROs like he just is he is when he's pissed.
He's not like a guy who plays better when he's pissed.
He really isn't. He's clanking easy shots. He's frustrated. He's
he like gets himself out of the game emotionally. And yeah,
that's if that's the philosophy or in a strategy from
from the Thunder, keep at it because it's working.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he'll sometimes, excuse me, you could goad him
to just sort of fouls that like as the nuggets,
you don't want him to take sure the free throw discrepancy,
by the way, I think it's plus twelve right now
for the series in favor of the Thunder, So at
least I get. I get where you're saying. I'm actually
not saying it's wrong, but I don't I won't look
back on this series so far and think that the
referees determined it, which.
Speaker 3: Okay, it's not all shooting files though I want to bet.
Speaker 2: That right here, But you made that point there.
Speaker 1: And it's also I think with Jokic specifically, I do
feel like anecdotally speaking, and you run into this problem
with I know the Pelicans had it with Zion a
while ago. They just expect like these bigger players or
even these well built played like Lebron I think earlier,
maybe not so much the past few years, but like
you could have just made the case where it's because
dudes can bounce off him since he's built like an Adonis. Yeah,
that they just wouldn't get the same level of calls.
And so it does. And it's interesting because there's the
juxtaposition between Shay the star player, who's a lot of
sort of just like Craft with his dribbling and built
more slight, not that he's not strong and can't be physical,
but then versus Jokic where it's just like he's this
but he myth. So I totally get what you're what
you're saying there. The in terms of like looking forward
to seeing what more of these teams can do? Are
we at the point to zero? Went on the thunder
for a second that like, should Alex Caruso just start
at this point or yes.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah.
Speaker 4: Mark Gaignall made this adjustment which I really liked in
Game four where and I was a little confused that first,
because you can't. I've always reverted back to like, oh,
Alex Caruso, it should be your main point of its
sack defender, right, he should be on ball.
Speaker 3: That that's because I love him guarding the ball. And
so I was a.
Speaker 4: Little perplexed when I saw him put Caruso on on
Russ in the corner for periods in Game four, and
I realized, Oh my god, that's total decoy play because
it just frees him up to be like the primary
back line defender, like he just rotated up. He guarded
Jokich so well, forced Jokich into a couple of tough,
tough decisions. I even't think he forced him into a
missed push shot, if memory serves. So it's like that
was that was smart because you live with an open
corner rust three.
Speaker 3: You just do that like Caruso's well too.
Speaker 1: But like that's the I think it's left specifically, but
like you live with it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're you live with it.
Speaker 4: So like you're just adding an you know, look, let's
be honest here, a dp O Y candidate ish type
of player. You're just allowing him to basically free roam
the hell out of the court, which good luck beating that.
That's tough. That is really tough. So that's a great
adjustment for for Mark dag Nold. I thought, uh yes,
I would love to see Caruso start from here on
out for the rest of the playoffs. He's that valuable.
Did he play Someone mentioned this to me. I haven't
looked it up. Did Caruso really play on twenty minutes
per game in the regular season?
Speaker 2: Did he? I mean he dealt with an injury at
one point.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, but like general, were they able to
save him that much?
Speaker 1: He averaged nineteen point three minutes per game during the
regular season.
Speaker 3: All yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1: That's the and one part of that adjustment too. When
Grant and I had talked about this coming out of
Game one, where we were wondering, like, should Okase be
more aggressive with how they're defending Jokic, and it was
kind of, well.
Speaker 2: You can't.
Speaker 1: And it's like that's kind of one thing where if
Yokic is gonna be down low, like you can be
more aggressive in those instances with the way that they
have that set up. And I think, look, you have
to give Isaiah Hartenstein's had good moments defensively on him,
Jal Big John Williams for sure as well. He's basically
won the chet Holmgrin matchup for the most part when
we've seen that, like Alex Russel has been a part
of just mucking everything up about Denver. And I think
what's really interesting or not interesting, but I guess would
be concerning, is like it doesn't feel I mean, Christian
Brown has definitely found ways to score when his three
balls not falling, but you have Aaron Gordon all the
stuff he's done. But it's just felt like even with
Jokic and you're looking like kind of the three point stuff,
like someone needs to give them more. Yeah, like if
your threes aren't going to fall at a super high clip, like,
where are you getting that extra from? And I guess
the you have to just assume that it's gonna be
Yokich And it's like, yeah, I mean Jamal Murray can
still hit pig shots and like he gets that elbow
jumper of his it's kind of terrifying. But the thunder
like they've done a good job of even being able
to take like those looks away. And I don't know
what the offensive adjustment is for Denver other than well,
we just need you need to get a good like
Michael Porter Junior is giving you lightning in a bottle
every once in a while.
Speaker 2: On offense, you probably need that.
Speaker 1: But it also just you need Jokic to look like
the Nicole Jokic I said should have won his fourth
MVP award.
Speaker 3: I have a number for you.
Speaker 4: So Aaron Gordon, we agree has had a good series,
but if we take away the threes, he's ten of
twenty six from two.
Speaker 1: And they had the nuggets. This is what just makes
Okay's defense so scary. They had four shot attempts at
the rim. I posted the shot chart at halftime in
game four. Four shot attempts at the rimward in the
first half. That is insane.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes it is.
Speaker 4: And this is where it gets extra troubling because if
you exclude the three, you have Gordon at like forty
eight percent overall. Again, excluding the three, Jamal Murray is
at forty percent overall. Y'll kids to thirty nine Russ
who's taken a lot of shots, so we had to
count it. Forty eight Christian Brown thirty six. Well, I mean,
come on, we had to count it. He's taking forty
four shots. He's taking eleven shots per game. Like I
wouldn't have counted like the smaller players there, but like
he's so.
Speaker 2: That was great.
Speaker 4: No, but like we have to Brown forty six, Michael
forty Junior forty one, Like this this is an efficiency issue.
Like they're shooting forty from the field thirty three free.
I mean, god, like, whatever we talked about in terms
of like the Cavs and them hitting needing to hit
jump shots or just interior shots for that matter, sing
goes here.
Speaker 3: This. I mean, this team is just so.
Speaker 4: Dire need of something something I don't know what that
something is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean like there and by the way,
just to edit myself, it's a plus twelve and free
throw attempts for the Nuggets for the series. I think
I said Thunder now that I just as I closed
out that window, I realized I probably misspoke. But yeah,
I mean Denver being against this team, and I know
that Oklahoma City what they have as scores with their
drives and they can play like dual big, but to
be a minus fifty two in the paint for the
series when you knew coming into this that in all
likelihood you were gonna get destroyed in the transition battle,
and like, hey, lo and behold, you've been outscored close
to two to one in transition. It's seventy seven for
okay see versus forty three for the Thunder to lose
the points in the paint battle to such a stark degree,
like that's I mean, that's problematic, and then all like
it just even the Yeah, I don't know what the
answer is, And I mean the you could maybe hope
Denver because they have we've just seen too much like
uncharacteristic turnovers from them. But then you're also like, well,
I mean they are going up against the Thunder, Like
is that just not that's a thing that could happen.
And that's the other thing too, is just like they're
when I saw this number before we started recording it. Actually,
I guess if you're watching, you don't realize it in
real time. But okay, see ninety seven to forty three
and points off turnovers for the series that like you
expect to lose that battle I think is the thunder,
I mean is the Nuggets. Excuse me, but like that's
just that's huge here as well, until you need to
flip that script a little bit, and it's not about
winning the fast break in the turnover battle. It's about, hey,
if we limit the turnover bat like, if we limit
our turnovers, especially like the ones that you can actually
limit when I think you go back and look at
a lot of Game four you certainly could have done
and that allows you to get your defense set or
at least give you a better opportunity to and then
you're just by extension, okayse he's not gonna spend as
much time in transition there. It's like that's something that
feels like a controllable, even if Jokic is gassed, and
like even if you just don't trust the support, which
again I think that you point to which I'm still
dying at you saying we need to count the rush
shot attempts because there are so many. Russ Is giving
you what you needed from Russ in the vein of like,
that's what we need from him. Defensively, I think Christian Brown, Yeah,
threes aren't falling, but he's given you what you needed,
so you have to start looking at Okay, there's the
Yokic element of all this, whereas they're not gonna win
this series, the fact that it's two to two and
Jokic has had like the fact that you've won one
of the past three games with what we've seen from Jokic,
that's a big deal that can't continue. But I think
that you, if you're them, you might need to focus
more on the minutia stuff rather than like, we really
need to figure out a way to hit a higher.
Speaker 2: Clip of our threes or something.
Speaker 1: And look, before I throw it back to you, their
defense has been really good since like midway through what
that Clipper series, and that's not a level I thought
that they could ever get too. And so like they
the fact they were in position to win Game four
specifically that was a quintessential rock fight. And so there's
like you've shown that you can hang with the thunder. There,
it's can you clean up enough? To clean up enough
on offense? Not a small task against Okac's defense.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: Look, we're kind of circling a topic here as well,
because we're talking about as from an offensive perspective, like
who's going to step up, who's going to do more?
Should be Jamal Murray. Like that's the thing, right, Like,
that's we've sort of grown accustomed to Jamal being I
don't want to say inconsistent, but we're getting different versions
of him, right, Like we're getting these crazy forty five
point games and we're getting like twelve point games. Like
there's there's just such a the lows are really low
in the highs are so high, and it's I think
for the Nuggets, you need something that you can rely on.
You need some sort of stability in his production where
it's not a surprise every single night in terms of
what he gives you. Like I understand why you laugh
at that, because it's like it shouldn't.
Speaker 1: It's just that's ingrained into the fabric of their team
at this point for me is why it's because it's
you know what I mean, Like, how are you supposed
to expect we've to be fair? I guess we've seen
him be more consistent when it matters in the past.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we have.
Speaker 4: And I just think it messes up like it seems
wide expectations and it messes up like team dynamics, because
all right, let's say he comes out and gets you
nine quick points in the first quarter, and it seems like,
oh okay, jamalls on one. Maybe we can give him
that more responsibility. Then he doesn't score again until like
early in the fourth. Those are some of the things
where I'm like, it's so tough to build anything sustainable
in terms of offense around players. You know, he's not
obviously not the primary player, but he's at least the
secondary offensive minded guy. Like, how do you build something
sustainable around that? I don't have the answer for it,
but I do think it's wildly frustrating.
Speaker 1: I do wonder, though you mentioned Jamal Murray, I think
lou Dort deserves a lot of credit for why Jamal
Murray struggling. And I think that gets into we didn't
really get into what could be the potential downside. Like
we see lou Dort, he's shooting thirty nine percent on
open threes for the series. I think that's not like
a super high number, and when you look at his
three but like he it feels like he's trying to
shoot Okac out of games at points. That's the variance
you that could be damaging, But I guess you have
to live with If you start Caruso, you're removing that
that Westbrook element from your bag at least for stretches,
unless carus is gonna play all forty eight minutes, and
then you're also taking off the So like him on
Jamal Murray is fine, but now it's all water.
Speaker 2: Are you trying to.
Speaker 1: Use lou Dort and an Alex Caruso role if you're
bringing him off the the like coming into the bench
and playing minutes and so that might be something that's
in the back of Okayc's mind to where it's like,
we still want to have lou Dort going after Jamal
Murray so that we can move Alex caruz Are around
the spectrum more. I guess the solve would be, do
you look at like you're not gonna bench one of
the bigs at this point certainly, right.
Speaker 4: No, I look, I know he hasn't been great from
range this series, but you need just a threat of
Chet from the outside.
Speaker 3: Hartenstein, I think is tough to take off the floor.
Speaker 4: I think he's been rock solid, like he's making the
right reads, he's not forcing shots, like he's taking what
the defense is giving him. He's rebounding like I think
he's done a pretty decent job on Yoki's just well,
like so far, if you're looking at the Bigs from Okay,
see he's been the MVP of the Bigs for them
this series. So but he doesn't give you the spacing component.
He doesn't give you the outside scoring. You know where
he's going to get the shots like Chet can also defensively,
for that matter, free roam a little bit more, which
is saying something when he's like seven foot one and
like what is his wingspan seven eight or something ridiculous,
So like I do think that matters, But there might
be a time, there might be like moments here there
where you can get away with it and you go
super small and just scale up the speed. They'll have
to see what like how Denver is playing initially, and
what's a react out of.
Speaker 1: What have you made of the just the chet series
or even if you're looking at like, okay, the j
Dubb the type of game that he had in in
game four, and then even if it trickles down to
what do you do if you're I mean, they won anyway,
but what do you do in those instances where.
Speaker 2: It's can you rely anymore?
Speaker 1: On a case in Wallace for volume who that's another
dude who's had a really good defensive series. He goes
three or three like it feels like and he's just
wide open all the time. Those are it feels like
consciously the Nuggets have almost decided like, well, those are
dudes that we don't want to leave open him and
Aaron Wibb, like we're gonna leave them open because we
don't necessarily love the alternatives. What do you make of
like if they're of what offensive adjustments or levers that
maybe Mark Dagnell Kim pull from here.
Speaker 3: It's a good question.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I wouldn't mind going more to the guys who
you know, are are viewed as second string or you know,
not part of the primary three, because there are a
lot of player quality on this team. Like again, I trust, I, say,
a Joe to take shots. I trust Aaron Wickinson to
take shots. You mentioned keseon Wallace, I trust him to
take shots. Hell even lou Dord, even though he's shooting
twenty five percent of three this series, Like over the
past couple of years, he's been such a good shooter
that I trust the ball to go through his hands
a little bit more so if that is the necessary
response to jadub or chat not being able to utilize
shirting matchups or not being able to hit from distance
or whatever. Yeah, that's that's a perfectly fine lever to pull.
That said, I would prefer Jalen Williams and chet Holmekrom,
who are supposed to join Shay on the max contract.
I can fairly soon even to maybe start thinking about, Okay, like,
am I jacking a little too many contested shots? Am
I not doing anything?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 4: Am I doing enough to sort of twist my game
into a different place where I can be productive?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 4: I do I think Jaalen Williams has had a tough
series offensively?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Do I also think there are times where he actually
tries to do something else? I do, but I don't
necessarily think he does it all the time. And there
are elements where he's just young, right, twenty three years
old and is going to make mistakes of that nature
of that age group. Same coach with Chet, so like
I have patience, but if you're going for a title
and you need to be pretty harsh about it, like
if this continues, yeah, you got to put more on
the reserves.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I'd be curious to see. And then you get
into well, who are the minutes coming at the expense
of and I guess maybe you knife into door it,
but you can ratchet up Alex Caruso's minutes if he's starting,
and then cut even like a little bit more from
the top off of Dort. But I do think the
thunder they can get away from like what makes them
dangerous offense And again credit the.
Speaker 2: Nuggets defense are the work they've done.
Speaker 1: But there's just and Shae might even be a part
of it where it's why are so many of these possessions,
especially in crunch time, there's just no driving, like it's
just like it feels like they're settling. We saw it
in Game four. I think even more with their offense
whereas they didn't have like sixty drives in game three
or something, and then it's like forty three drives or
whatever in game four, and it's this is what makes
you special in the absence of having if you think, Okay,
there's j Dubb and there's Shay and there's just not
a ton of guys who can create their own looks
chet Holmgrin included there. I don't like seeing them like
stray away from that so often, especially when they were
so consistent and overwhelming with it during the regular season
and even in that you know, Memphis Grizzly series, and
then it's if you're in danger of doing that or
if you're trying to figure out a way to inoculate
yourself against that. I do wonder if Aaron Wiggins is
more of the answer it's you. You might concede some
stuff offensively, but like he can just do more on
offense than a case in Wallace he is. I would
say he's definitely. Maybe he's not as willing to know,
he's as willing to fire him up as Alue Door,
but he's more dynamic on offense than Door as well,
And so is that something worth Where did he play
fifteen minutes in Game four, like that just might be
someone who I'm giving more.
Speaker 2: Of a look to.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, you're speaking my language. I love him. I
love Aaron Wakins. I think he is, you know, not
in terms of, like, oh, one of the most underrated,
you know, like he says he would be a star elsewhere.
Speaker 3: That's not what I'm saying.
Speaker 4: But I do think generally speaking, he's one of the
more underrated NBA players out there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's someone who in this is maybe you could
say this about a couple of Thunder players, but it
feels like he would start on twenty other teams.
Speaker 4: Yeah. No, I think that is a completely fair assessment.
The shooting, obviously we know that. But this year he
added a little bit more on ball creation to his game.
I think we've seen some passing chops, even though he
doesn't wrack up raw. I don't know, like I haven't
gone into the weeds with this one if he's more
of like an hockey assist guy. But it does feel
to me this year compared to last year, he's just
making more high quality passes. So I think he has
taken a bit of an evolution from last year to
this one where he's actually sort of come out of
that very limited three and sometimes d roll last year
to this year. He's more of a fully fledged scorer
that it'd be interesting to see if he could carry
that mantle in the playoffs where he actually gets the
ball in his hands a little bit more instead of being,
you know, entirely reliant upon reacting to the actions of others.
Speaker 1: It's interesting you notice that because during the regular season
he basically more than doubled his potential assists per game,
and it's not like his role he got so much
bigger either. So this is I don't think you can
trust him to do it, but there's certainly more depth
to it, so you can.
Speaker 2: If you're looking to.
Speaker 1: Capitalize on driving kick stuff like that, is someone who
I do think can be not primary engine for it,
but certainly just like a safety net for it.
Speaker 2: Let's even call it no.
Speaker 3: But you're right.
Speaker 4: I mean he's I think he's that kind of player.
It'd be interesting to see Mark Daignol dust him off
at a higher capacity. Now I don't want to go
this far, but I also think if you're looking at
offensive production, offensive fluidity, whatever, I wouldn't hate Jalen Williams
minutes in the front court a little bit more as well. Look,
he's obviously there's a major step down from Chet and Hartenstein,
but if Chet keeps breaking threes, if he's not really
that assertive offensively, I wouldn't mind relinquishing a few of
those minutes to go to Jalen Williams instead, just to
make things happen. He's a wonderful ball player for someone
his size, can really make a pass, He rebounds pretty well,
can shoot it.
Speaker 3: Like.
Speaker 4: This team is rediculously deep and ridiculously good, so they
have options. It's just a matter of like when is
the time to realize, oh, yeah, we got to pull
the plot on this specific player, uh for the rest
of the game or for the rest of the half
of the rest of the quarter, because he's just had
doesn't have it. Like, I also appreciate Mark Diakno basically
sticking with j Dubb and Chet and going no, no,
you'll fight through through to this and you'll find a way.
Speaker 1: So far, though, I think I felt way better about
jdeb series overall than Chet's though, And so it's just
like the shooting, like the efficiency isn't necessarily there but
like he's done some stuff inside the arc the j Will.
That's interesting because I would look at it as more
as if you're looking to continue to come up this series,
because that's another body that you can throw in. Yokich
and the Nuggets in this series are scoring point seven
points per possession when Jay Will registers as a defender
on Jokic. That is, for anyone that's that's low. The
league average in the playoffs I think is like one
four one point one five points.
Speaker 3: So very small sample size.
Speaker 1: Obviously, yes, playoff sample sizes matter, though, so that's true.
That'd be that is true that I guess. I just
I don't know that I see the Jay Will value
proposition from an offensive I guess if you're looking for
someone to set like more solid, I would see it
more as like a defensive thing, I guess is what
I'm getting at.
Speaker 4: Oh okay, that's interesting, I see. I I think he's
also pretty dynamic in terms of when he's on the perimeter.
Maybe I need to like watch a little closer on
that specifically, but I do think he's a guy it
seems sort of like eyeing all the time when he's
outside the long line.
Speaker 1: So then from you, I guess from your perspective, it's
if there's minutes where it's him and Chet and then
that you can still kind of have size but also
have like a faux five out spacing let's call, because
I don't think defenses aren't gonna religiously guard j him.
Speaker 4: That makes sense, Yeah, right, him or Hardenstein or even
him and Chet.
Speaker 3: Really, I mean just basically I think him and Hens.
Speaker 2: Are pretty physical.
Speaker 1: That to me would be more like we're gonna try to,
you know, f your world up on the defensive end.
Speaker 4: I mean, look, you can do that and still have
a spacing presence on the other side of the floor.
Speaker 3: I yeah, absolutely, I'd be down for it. There.
Speaker 4: The thing is, to me, though, the main takeaway is, Okaye,
you have so many more possible constellations and you know,
not gimmicks, but like it's it's basically a game of
Tetris for them because they can just sort of slide
players in such many of varieties like what can Denver do?
Speaker 3: What do they even have in that regard?
Speaker 1: Their margin for error is even with the series too
too and a very easily it could be three to
one in either team's favor.
Speaker 3: At this point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but like their margin for error is just so
much slimmer than Oklahoma City.
Speaker 3: Really. Yeah, And that's my main takeaway honestly for this series, like.
Speaker 4: They Denver has to play virtually perfect basketball from here
on that.
Speaker 1: I do think if you believe that Jokic is gonna
just and there's not necessarily a reason to say that
Yokic won't be yo Kich at some point, I think
you can look at this and say, if you believe that,
you have to feel pretty good about being two to
two after the past three games that Yokich play.
Speaker 4: Yes, especially when you also consider the very short turnaround
by the way, something we forgot to get into. What
the hell they were playing super late Friday and very
early Sunday. They didn't even get forty eight hour turnaround, Like.
Speaker 2: No, they didn't.
Speaker 1: And the benefit one benefit of that is is now
you get the longer rest period between your game five,
like between Sunday and then your game five on Tuesday.
But that scheduling was just and it wasn't like, yeah,
the only game that was on or followed by a
West Coast game. It was no Cleveland, Indiana or the
night game, which made no sense. And I'm sure it
had something to do with arena conflicts or something, but
it just made no sense.
Speaker 4: No, And I just think when you have such a
delicious series, it just hurts it, right. I Mean, there
are many ways I could look at this and come
away with this being basically the Western Conference Finals honestly,
just from an er perspective as well, I.
Speaker 1: Think you could say that just because the looming uncertainty
with Steph and Golden State, and then just you can't,
like it felt like Minnesota was trying like hell to
lose Game three against Golden State, and so I just
don't I will never trust Minnesota's offense ever. Again, I
don't think like maybe if they trade for Kevin Durant,
But so yeah, And look, it's not unfair to say
that because are regardless of who makes it out of
this series versus who they would face in the Conference finals,
I think teams are probably maybe Denver versus Minnesota. Would
people pick Minnesota, But I actually think whoever comes out
of this series will be favored to make it to
the NBA Finals out of the West.
Speaker 4: Like I respect people would take Minnesota over Denver. Like
I understand all the logical reasons for that, but can
we really like, look if Yo Kitch with very few
like with very little help, beats the Thunder and also
comes out of a seven game series with the Clippers, like, eventually,
we're gonna have to say, okay, like.
Speaker 1: I would be morally obligated. Yeah, I would be morally
obligated to pick the Nuggets in that because I picked
against them with the Clippers, picked against them with the Thunder,
and if they beat those two teams, and yeah, I
would have to pick them.
Speaker 2: To beat the Timberwolves or Warriors.
Speaker 1: I think honestly, I think they probably eat the Warriors alive,
just giving Golden State's lack of size everywhere.
Speaker 2: But yeah, uh yeah, so.
Speaker 1: I would have there's your there's your Constellation. Nuggets fans
don't know. I they're gonna beat the Thunder. I still
wouldn't predict it. But if they do, I'm just gonna
pick them to make the NBA Finals because I will
have a moral obligation to do so.
Speaker 4: I will say this, despite the very ugly Game four
Denver Okase, I enjoy these games. I mean these two
series in particular that we talked about, Like I'm getting
a little fired up before game time.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna level with you there.
Speaker 4: I'm not getting fired up for well, I'm getting a
little fired up because the Knicks had such a great
start against the Celtics.
Speaker 3: But I'm not getting fired This is just.
Speaker 2: My whole thing.
Speaker 1: And if this is being published after they won Game
four whatever, they fell by twenty points in the first
two games, this is just fair.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 4: Let me rephrase the fact that they won the first
two games.
Speaker 2: They won they wanted.
Speaker 1: They won two more games than I honestly expected them
to win, and I picked them to lose in five.
I thought that Boston, I thought, and I thought that
game was game one, so that series is interesting in
series score, and even if Boston's losing three to one.
Speaker 2: But I'm I think these are the two.
Speaker 1: Most compelling series that we just talked about. And I
do believe Golden State Minnesota would have had a chance.
But like the Steph injury is just like that nukes
so much of the interest.
Speaker 4: I'll also admit, just personally, outside of and and I
said this before, I just don't find the Wolves all
that compelling. Although it is refreshing to see that Julius
Randall that has sort of broken that whole, you know,
negative mantra he had around him.
Speaker 3: That's interesting.
Speaker 1: He's been he's been fun to watch, and they're like
even against the Lakers, like him, like putting the clamps
on Lebron James at point. This has been I made
a joke and then they were just fans from both
teams got mad. But like Knicks fans like crying because
they're seeing Julius Randall come up. It wasn't about should
they have made the cat trade? It was they had
those playoff runs of Julius Rendl were just so bad.
And now he's healthy and he's on a team that
has him in the right role for the most part,
and he just he looks good and he like the
Wolves are here. That's a big part of why I mean,
I don't trust them at all because Minison and by
the way, Indiana fell into that bucket for all the
Pacers have done. You. We had some pushback because you
called them consistent before we came into this series. They
with the timber Wolves apply the team that like plays
down to that level of their opponents, and that might
be the thing that you would be concerned about the
most as a Pacers fan against like they almost It
says a lot that that game where the Cavs didn't
have you could argue three of their five most important
players and Indy like almost lost that that would have
been the typical Pacers loss was Game two, And yet
they go up against Cleveland, gets healthier, and then they
run them out of the gym even more quick like
explain that I can't Nope.
Speaker 4: It's something that underlines this belief that I have that
it's never the product here, Like when people are pissed
off at the NBA, at least right now, it's not
the product. It's the presentation. Because I can sit there
and I can be pissed off at games. I can
be pissed off at refs, I can be pissed off
at a lot of things.
Speaker 3: But like holistically, when.
Speaker 4: I take a step back and I try to evaluate
the quality of the product right now, no matter how
hard I tried, Dan, I just can't poke enough holes
in it to the point where I'm like, this league
is dumb. This is bad basketball. The nineties and eighties
were better. This is fucking brilliant basketball. You just have
a bunch of old fucks on television who are complaining
about it and have done so over twenty goddamn years,
like this is fantastic basketball.
Speaker 1: And that ties into what you were saying, where I
really do believe a lot of it's a messaging problem.
And then in so far as there is a problem
with the product, a lot of it's regular season, the
length of it problem, because look at what happens when
these games are just they're these incredible chess matches.
Speaker 2: And I applaud the chaos of these playoffs.
Speaker 1: I have those like first three or four days of
the second round. If we would have had to record
a podcast at I mean, I'm sure we did.
Speaker 2: I had no clue what was going on.
Speaker 1: It was just confusing as hell, like the Knicks comebacks,
all these comebacks that the way that the Pacers won
that for everything was just bonkers.
Speaker 2: And it's been I've had a lot of fun.
Speaker 1: It's been, like you said, brilliant basketball, even when it's ugly,
because there's a lot of things.
Speaker 2: To appreciate about defenses.
Speaker 1: Yeah, more are you able to tell our listeners where
they can find you and all the fine work that
you do.
Speaker 4: Over at Forbes, over at Yahoo, And then I do
the pod which is basically here in your feed. Whether
you're listening to the Hardwood Knox or the NBA podcast,
it's more or less the same. Like we're basically we've
become the interview meeting, same but different.
Speaker 3: That's that's us now because there.
Speaker 2: We have our crossover them though.
Speaker 1: It's just like any good franchise does, right.
Speaker 3: We just have like seven hundred of them every month.
Speaker 1: Yes, until next time. Ben, As always, I think you
have the shout out to the one, the only, the indelible.
Speaker 2: If any of these playoff teams could sign him, they would.
Speaker 1: Immediately win the championship. Mister Frank, team