WEBVTT 1 00:00:11.759 --> 00:00:16.039 Hello everyone, and welcome to Talk Nerdy. Today is Monday, 2 00:00:16.160 --> 00:00:19.559 July twentieth, twenty twenty six, and I'm the host of 3 00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:23.960 the show Doctor Kara Santa Maria. I'm actually on vacation. 4 00:00:24.199 --> 00:00:26.039 I guess you could call it. It's a working vacation. 5 00:00:26.359 --> 00:00:31.239 This week and next away with the Skeptics Guide to 6 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:36.840 the Universe in Australia and New Zealand for some conferences 7 00:00:36.920 --> 00:00:39.920 down under. I will be back in a couple of 8 00:00:39.960 --> 00:00:42.799 weeks and so I'm pre recording some of these for 9 00:00:42.920 --> 00:00:45.600 your pleasure. So if I get any new patrons in 10 00:00:45.640 --> 00:00:49.880 the meantime, I apologize for not giving you a shout out, 11 00:00:49.920 --> 00:00:51.679 but as soon as I am back at my desk, 12 00:00:51.759 --> 00:00:56.280 I will definitely do so. As I mentioned the patrons, 13 00:00:56.520 --> 00:00:59.280 I as always want to thank those of you who 14 00:00:59.520 --> 00:01:02.920 make Talk Nerdy possible. Remember this show is and will 15 00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:06.680 always be one hundred percent free to download, even today 16 00:01:06.719 --> 00:01:08.799 on episode six hundred ten. 17 00:01:09.799 --> 00:01:10.200 Wow. 18 00:01:10.840 --> 00:01:15.879 So this week's top patrons include ooh, let's see put 19 00:01:15.920 --> 00:01:18.200 that in the wrong order. Here we go. Top patrons. 20 00:01:18.840 --> 00:01:24.000 They include Chuck Blell, David J. E. Smith, Daniel Lang, 21 00:01:24.239 --> 00:01:29.719 Will Defrain, David Compton, Brian Holden, Gabo jay Ulrica Hagman, 22 00:01:30.040 --> 00:01:35.599 Pasquale Gelati, Rika Maharaj and Joe Wilkinson. Thank you all 23 00:01:35.680 --> 00:01:39.640 so so very much. If you are interested in pledging 24 00:01:39.640 --> 00:01:42.239 your support on an episodic basis, all you've got to 25 00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:45.359 do is visit Patreon. That's p A t R e 26 00:01:45.400 --> 00:01:50.359 o N dot com slash talk Nerdy. All right, let's 27 00:01:50.400 --> 00:01:53.840 get into it. So this week I had the opportunity 28 00:01:53.879 --> 00:01:58.280 to speak with doctor Maria Tatar. She's the John L. 29 00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:03.319 Lobe Research Professor of Germanic Languages and Literatures and of 30 00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:09.199 Folklore and Mythology Emerita at Harvard University. That's such a 31 00:02:09.199 --> 00:02:13.039 long title. So she is an Emerita professor of Germanic 32 00:02:13.159 --> 00:02:18.719 Languages and Literatures and of Folklore and Mythology. And among 33 00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:21.800 her many, many many books she's published, we're going to 34 00:02:21.879 --> 00:02:25.000 be talking about her newest one today. It is called 35 00:02:25.400 --> 00:02:31.159 a Raknomania spiders and the cultural work they do for us. So, 36 00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:38.280 without any further ado, here she is doctor Maria to talk. Well, Maria, 37 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:40.120 thank you so much for joining me today. 38 00:02:40.919 --> 00:02:41.800 Great to be with you. 39 00:02:42.479 --> 00:02:45.080 I'm excited to talk about your new wist book. I 40 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:47.439 think it's important to say that because you've written many 41 00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:52.319 many books, but your newest book a Racknomania spiders and 42 00:02:52.360 --> 00:02:55.039 the cultural work they do for us. But before we 43 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:58.439 get into our favorite or not so favorite Araknids, I 44 00:02:58.479 --> 00:03:01.199 would love to talk to you about your background a 45 00:03:01.199 --> 00:03:08.240 little bit, so Germanic languages and literatures and folklore and mythology. 46 00:03:08.639 --> 00:03:11.840 You're a professor of these things, professor emerita at Harvard 47 00:03:11.919 --> 00:03:15.240 University of these things. How does one become a professor 48 00:03:15.680 --> 00:03:18.400 of folklore and mythology for example? 49 00:03:19.039 --> 00:03:22.840 Well, first, I have to confess to having academic add 50 00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:27.680 I cannot sit still, I can't stay in one place. 51 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:31.400 I have colleagues who study Kafka for their entire lifetime 52 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:34.919 and I can't do that. And also I've been around 53 00:03:34.960 --> 00:03:39.479 for a long time. So I started out studying German 54 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:45.159 literature with a PhD in that field, and then I 55 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:47.759 gave I was invited to give a talk on the 56 00:03:47.759 --> 00:03:52.560 brothers Grim and I realized, to my astonishment, that no 57 00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:57.879 one with a PhD in German literature studied the Grims. 58 00:03:58.560 --> 00:03:59.400 It was just. 59 00:04:00.919 --> 00:04:05.400 Their fairy tales were considered children's literature, wasn't part of 60 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:08.439 the true and the good and the beautiful. So that 61 00:04:08.599 --> 00:04:13.759 got me off and running and once I after I 62 00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:17.040 get that talk where there were about two hundred people 63 00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:21.160 as opposed to the ten people that usually came to. 64 00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:26.480 Academic talks, I thought, you know, maybe I'm onto something here, 65 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:30.759 and that led me into folklore and of course mythology, 66 00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:35.120 and it's all part of the great cauldron of story. 67 00:04:36.079 --> 00:04:40.759 And these days we don't stay in one time and place, 68 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:45.720 but folklorists and those who study literature as well move 69 00:04:45.800 --> 00:04:49.240 around from one continent to the next and from one 70 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:52.519 era to the next. It's an exciting time. 71 00:04:53.759 --> 00:04:57.319 It's so I mean, it's so lovely to hear that 72 00:04:57.399 --> 00:05:04.720 somebody has dedicated their career to celebrating and investigating this 73 00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:09.600 fundamentally human endeavor. You know, this show has been on 74 00:05:09.639 --> 00:05:11.600 the air now for eleven years. I've been doing this, 75 00:05:11.759 --> 00:05:16.360 and early on I really kind of situated it as 76 00:05:16.360 --> 00:05:19.920 a hard science show, and most of my guests were 77 00:05:20.199 --> 00:05:24.079 physicists or chemists or biologists. And as the years moved on, 78 00:05:24.439 --> 00:05:29.199 the show itself evolved into more social justice orientations, with 79 00:05:29.240 --> 00:05:33.079 more representation and more of a kind of inclusive conversation 80 00:05:33.399 --> 00:05:37.120 around academia and beyond. And I think part of that 81 00:05:37.240 --> 00:05:42.639 was my transition from more like hard neuroscience into clinical psychology, 82 00:05:43.399 --> 00:05:45.959 and now I have all of these wonderful people who 83 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:49.040 joined me on the show from all these different kind 84 00:05:49.120 --> 00:05:52.600 of areas of academia. And I love it because A 85 00:05:52.800 --> 00:05:55.879 I don't know anything about this, Like obviously, if I 86 00:05:55.879 --> 00:05:58.399 thought about it long enough, I would realize that people 87 00:05:59.000 --> 00:06:03.199 do this for a living. But it feels so far 88 00:06:03.240 --> 00:06:06.079 away from a lot of my exposure. And so I'm 89 00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:08.480 so excited to be able to pick your brain today 90 00:06:08.720 --> 00:06:11.720 and learn what your career has looked like. Like, what 91 00:06:11.959 --> 00:06:15.199 does a professor who you know, part of the job, 92 00:06:15.240 --> 00:06:18.920 if you're in academia at the level of professor PhD, 93 00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:22.360 is to teach, and part of your job is to 94 00:06:22.399 --> 00:06:27.040 do scholarship. What is the scholarship of somebody who studies 95 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:32.240 literature and especially studies like mythology, in folklore and beyond. 96 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:36.959 Oh well, I have to say that there's My research 97 00:06:37.160 --> 00:06:42.199 and my teaching were always entangled because I've learned from 98 00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:46.720 so much from my students, who made me aware of 99 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:50.720 what was dull and what was interesting. I looked at 100 00:06:50.720 --> 00:06:55.319 their faces, and you know, I could always tell whether 101 00:06:55.360 --> 00:06:58.439 I was going down the right path or whether I 102 00:06:58.519 --> 00:07:03.240 was going into terrain that was just totally uninteresting to them. 103 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:07.319 As for scholarship, I suppose, you know, I have to 104 00:07:07.360 --> 00:07:12.439 say that I'm an omnivore, and so I love just 105 00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:15.959 moving all over the place, all over the map, as 106 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:21.240 I said before, and then digging deep into My training 107 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:26.120 in German taught me that skill of digging deep and 108 00:07:26.199 --> 00:07:30.079 taking things to the sixth decimol point in a way, 109 00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:34.279 and learning the language, learning about the culture, but then 110 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:37.319 being a FOLKLSST. I was a sort of liberator from that, 111 00:07:37.480 --> 00:07:39.639 and I realized, you know, I could go to China 112 00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:44.720 and I could recollections to be sure they were translations 113 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:49.360 of Chinese fairy tales, and discover the connections with Western 114 00:07:49.639 --> 00:07:56.199 analogs and so so scholarship to me is oddly very 115 00:07:56.399 --> 00:08:01.079 unsystematic in a way, because what what I like to 116 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:04.160 do is just have my basket and collect all kinds 117 00:08:04.199 --> 00:08:09.399 of things and then sit at my desk and you know, there, 118 00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:13.079 I would say there is a certain amount of solitude 119 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:16.000 that is required, you know, going from the classroom to 120 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:21.680 the desk and just thinking hard. And I should say 121 00:08:21.959 --> 00:08:26.040 Cloud Levey Strauss, the great French anthropologist, taught me that 122 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:30.399 animals are good to think with. And that accounts I 123 00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:34.960 think for part of my turn to animal animal studies, 124 00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:41.080 because really thinking hard about our world and how we 125 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:45.279 coexist with other beings on the planet. 126 00:08:47.279 --> 00:08:51.639 It's so important. And I wonder, I mean, obviously, you 127 00:08:51.679 --> 00:08:53.559 have so many colleagues and this is the world that 128 00:08:53.559 --> 00:08:56.360 you've been steeped in, but for a lot of you know, 129 00:08:56.480 --> 00:08:59.399 people that you meet on the subway, people that you 130 00:08:59.480 --> 00:09:02.519 meet in the grocery store, I wonder how many of 131 00:09:02.559 --> 00:09:06.679 them realize that there is this rich academic world where 132 00:09:06.720 --> 00:09:14.399 people are digging deep into story and how stories shape 133 00:09:14.759 --> 00:09:19.600 humanity and society. I can't help but ask, like, when 134 00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:22.960 you first got into you know, when you first decided 135 00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:25.159 to go to college even and then continue on to 136 00:09:25.240 --> 00:09:28.639 graduate school, was it really situated in like I just 137 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:32.320 really love to read. Is that what brought you is? 138 00:09:32.360 --> 00:09:33.720 And do you find that with a lot of your 139 00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:37.159 students or your colleagues that most people in this world 140 00:09:37.399 --> 00:09:38.679 are just passionate readers. 141 00:09:39.399 --> 00:09:39.639 Well. 142 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:43.519 I confess to being bookish, and one of the things 143 00:09:43.559 --> 00:09:47.039 that I disliked in my childhood was my mother was 144 00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:49.799 constantly telling people that I always had my nose in 145 00:09:49.840 --> 00:09:53.960 a book. And one of the things I discovered. It's 146 00:09:53.960 --> 00:09:57.320 such an interesting question that you raised, because years and 147 00:09:57.639 --> 00:10:01.840 decades ago I decided to teach a course called fairy 148 00:10:01.879 --> 00:10:07.159 Tales in the Culture of Childhood. And it was tough 149 00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:14.200 to get that course past the gatekeepers, who were worried 150 00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:17.440 that I would have bottom feeders in that court, because 151 00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:18.480 fairy tales. 152 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:23.080 You know, these sort of silly, frivolous not stories, right, 153 00:10:24.639 --> 00:10:29.240 And of course, you know, I took some of that seriously. 154 00:10:29.320 --> 00:10:33.240 But what I discovered when four hundred people showed up 155 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:38.480 for the course I was expecting fifteen. The beauty of 156 00:10:38.600 --> 00:10:41.159 it was why did they come to that course? They 157 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:45.720 were passionate readers, and they wanted to go back and 158 00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:48.240 look at the stories that they had grown up with 159 00:10:48.919 --> 00:10:53.960 and analyzed them, you know, not have the immersive reading experience, 160 00:10:54.080 --> 00:10:56.480 but also step back and look at them. You know, 161 00:10:56.559 --> 00:11:00.480 why was this important? What does this story mean? We 162 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:06.399 are homo significants, not just homo sapiens, but we are 163 00:11:06.440 --> 00:11:11.200 in search of meaning. We engage in these signifying practices. 164 00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:16.840 We try to understand something about the stories that we 165 00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:20.080 tell to each other. And you know what you said earlier, 166 00:11:20.120 --> 00:11:23.840 I mean stories make the human world, and they also 167 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:27.759 make the world human and they keep us human, which 168 00:11:27.799 --> 00:11:31.600 is something that is more important than ever I think 169 00:11:31.799 --> 00:11:35.440 in an age of AI and new technologies. 170 00:11:36.200 --> 00:11:41.159 Oh. Absolutely, they help us understand ourselves. I think we 171 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:44.600 can't understand ourselves unless we understand how we are situated, 172 00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:47.360 you know, how we relate to others, how we relate 173 00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:53.120 to to lore. And one thing that I had to 174 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:55.879 bring up when you were talking about doing these this 175 00:11:56.039 --> 00:11:59.120 course that's more geared towards, you know, the folk tales 176 00:11:59.159 --> 00:12:02.120 of our childhood is whenever we take a minute to 177 00:12:02.200 --> 00:12:05.679 actually introspect, to not just take what we're reading at 178 00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:08.679 face value or say, oh, here is information, I'm going 179 00:12:08.759 --> 00:12:11.159 to add it to my prior information. But to sit 180 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:13.759 and go like that's kind of weird. Why would they 181 00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:16.279 were to? Then you start to realize, Wow, a lot 182 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:21.279 of folk lore is pretty dark. A lot of things 183 00:12:21.399 --> 00:12:25.120 kids are exposed to has a lot of depth, and 184 00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:30.000 maybe they're interpreting at a certain level when they're a 185 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:35.919 specific age, but digging deep probably uncovers a lot, doesn't it. 186 00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:41.879 Oh yes, absolutely, the darkness and fairy tales in particular, 187 00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:47.799 folklore and lore in general, myths as well, they are 188 00:12:47.960 --> 00:12:53.000 just weird. They're wired for weirdness, and so I always 189 00:12:53.000 --> 00:12:56.679 think of that phrase that Churchill use to describe Russia, 190 00:12:57.360 --> 00:13:01.679 a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside in an And 191 00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:05.039 sometimes these stories are so minimalist. 192 00:13:04.360 --> 00:13:07.000 In your concept what what first. 193 00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:10.399 You're asking what happened? You know what's next because it's 194 00:13:10.480 --> 00:13:16.159 often a great story. But then why, And so wonder 195 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:19.080 tales sometimes fairy tales are called wonder tales, which I 196 00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:24.720 think is a beautiful designation because wonder, as Aristotle and 197 00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:29.559 Plato taught us, is the beginning of philosophy. And so 198 00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:33.600 you start to understand why Einstein is reported to have 199 00:13:33.639 --> 00:13:37.639 said this may be apocryphal. If you want intelligent children, 200 00:13:37.720 --> 00:13:41.279 read them fairy tales. If you want more intelligent children, 201 00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:45.639 read them more fairy tales, because they get you thinking, 202 00:13:46.039 --> 00:13:50.000 and they also get you in conversation with other people 203 00:13:50.120 --> 00:13:53.519 who have heard a similar story and are also perplexed 204 00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:56.919 or puzzled and have a different take on the story. 205 00:13:57.639 --> 00:13:59.799 Oh I love that. Yeah, it reminds me of I 206 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:02.960 I never had the opportunity to be exposed to too 207 00:14:03.240 --> 00:14:10.080 much like literary training beyond my core courses in undergrad really, 208 00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:12.840 but it reminds me a lot of the work that 209 00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:14.879 I was lucky enough to do in some of my 210 00:14:14.919 --> 00:14:20.960 philosophy and my poetry courses, where you're not just creating, 211 00:14:21.159 --> 00:14:23.840 but you're co creating, and then you're really taking the 212 00:14:23.879 --> 00:14:30.799 time to attempt these I guess hermaeutic interpretations, like how 213 00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:34.080 do I read this in my context? But also what 214 00:14:34.200 --> 00:14:37.039 was thegeist at the time, you know, what were they 215 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:40.240 maybe trying to say and how relevant is that to 216 00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:41.080 this conversation. 217 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:44.720 Yes, I love the fact that you use the term 218 00:14:44.759 --> 00:14:49.039 hermaeneutic because my students loved it when I referred to 219 00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:55.519 them as hermauts. There were interpreters. They were searching for meaning, 220 00:14:55.639 --> 00:14:59.039 they were trying to figure things out and to get 221 00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:04.240 I I really think it's so important to emphasize what 222 00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:07.559 you just said about the power of story, because we 223 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:11.120 also live in an era that is characterized by hermeneutics 224 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:11.879 of suspicion. 225 00:15:12.440 --> 00:15:14.360 We read things and we say. 226 00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:17.320 What you know, we become overtly critical in a way 227 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:24.399 and in an effort to be ideologically correct. But you know, again, 228 00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:31.120 sometimes sometimes that kind of suspicion also gets conversations going. 229 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:36.240 So I'm not completely opposed to it, you know, I have. 230 00:15:36.279 --> 00:15:40.360 To admit that you know, a rachinomania I think really 231 00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:42.960 speaks to me because I do come from a more 232 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:47.679 natural science tradition, and sometimes I struggle when I read, 233 00:15:47.879 --> 00:15:50.080 maybe less so when I read. But I love that 234 00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:54.559 you mentioned this label of wonder stories as opposed to 235 00:15:55.039 --> 00:15:58.679 fairy tales or wonder tales. I sometimes struggle with watching 236 00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:03.200 fantasy films or getting involved in the world building that's 237 00:16:03.399 --> 00:16:07.279 necessary to get lost in fantasy. I find that I 238 00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:11.279 struggle to suspend disbelief in those in those areas as well. 239 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:15.600 Yeah, I hear you completely. I am a huge fact. 240 00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:15.879 You know. 241 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:19.840 I've never met a story that I didn't like in 242 00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:23.320 one way or another, but I should. I'll make one 243 00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:26.639 exception there. I could never get into Lord of the 244 00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:30.559 Brain me neither. It's like a whole thing, no I know, 245 00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:33.000 And I thought, well, maybe if I had a lifetime 246 00:16:33.159 --> 00:16:37.120 to learn always so I say, I've never met a 247 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:41.279 fairy tale I didn't like, but I have met fantasy books. 248 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:45.320 And also science fiction is a genre that I struggle with, 249 00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:52.120 but everything else I love and I embrace and I 250 00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:56.720 admire the people who can really get get into these 251 00:16:58.080 --> 00:17:02.840 into these worlds and visualize and see them so Oh. 252 00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:05.920 So it's yeah, it's interesting, like there's a there's a 253 00:17:05.960 --> 00:17:08.160 point I guess where it's too in the uncanny valley 254 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:12.359 and it requires too much cognitive effort. But if it's 255 00:17:12.359 --> 00:17:14.759 really fantastic, it's like, oh yeah, it's you know, it's 256 00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:16.920 easy to suspend that disbelief. 257 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:20.680 And I'm glad I found a kindred spirit. And now 258 00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:23.880 that we're in the confessional boat, I love it. 259 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:27.000 It's a lot of people they don't understand that. So 260 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:31.000 I've got to ask. Then you mentioned this turn to animals, 261 00:17:31.119 --> 00:17:35.559 and this turn to I guess life, ecology, biology, the 262 00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:39.640 way that we are situated amongst all of the living creatures, 263 00:17:39.680 --> 00:17:46.200 all of the organisms. What specifically turned you to spiders? 264 00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:49.119 That is a great question. 265 00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:53.319 I ask myself that almost every how did that land 266 00:17:53.359 --> 00:17:57.759 on spiders? And you know what you said earlier about 267 00:17:57.799 --> 00:18:02.480 connection and relationships. I immediately thought about spiders in the 268 00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:06.599 way that they spin webs and all the metaphors that 269 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:11.880 we derive from observing spiders. But the beginning of it 270 00:18:12.279 --> 00:18:15.759 was in a book that I wrote some time ago 271 00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:19.160 called The Heroin with one thousand and one Faces, which 272 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:22.319 looked at the craft of storytelling and craft I used 273 00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:27.680 that word deliberately because stories were often told in places. 274 00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:28.680 Where chores were carried. 275 00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:34.400 Where women sewed, where they mended, where they wove spinning rooms, 276 00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:38.240 sewing circles, at all of that. And while I was 277 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:41.839 writing that book, a Rockney became one of my thousand 278 00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:47.839 and one heroines. She led me to spiders because she, 279 00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:52.680 according to Avid, she was the first spider. So forget Darwin. 280 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:54.440 I know you like science. 281 00:18:54.680 --> 00:18:59.880 Forget Darwin, forget evolution. Avid tells us how spiders came 282 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:04.160 into the world. And Arockley is just a young girl, 283 00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:08.359 a beautiful young girl known for her weaving. She's also 284 00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:11.359 a bit of a show off. So she catches the 285 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:15.680 attention of Minerva or Athena, who challenges her to a 286 00:19:15.720 --> 00:19:19.640 weaving contest. And what does and this is why Iraklei 287 00:19:19.720 --> 00:19:24.160 became my hero And that is she creates this tapestry 288 00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:27.640 in which she weaves all of the misdeeds of the 289 00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:33.680 gods on and we get Zeus's sexual assaults, the rape 290 00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:38.759 of Europa, the seduction of Lyda, the deception of Akmena, 291 00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:42.319 and so on. Well, Athena is glorifying the gods in 292 00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:47.880 her tapestry. Athena is so outraged by this that she 293 00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:52.279 she tears a Rockney's tapestry into pieces, hits her over 294 00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:56.279 the head with a spindle, and then a Rockney is 295 00:19:56.359 --> 00:19:59.559 ashamed and plans to hang herself, but at the last 296 00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:06.200 moment Athendo turns her into a spider. But she's now destined. 297 00:20:06.680 --> 00:20:09.799 She can no longer be a show off. She's destined 298 00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:13.920 to spin in dark corners. But what I found so 299 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:18.240 fascinating about Arockney is one she speaks truth. 300 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:18.880 To power. 301 00:20:20.279 --> 00:20:23.319 With the craft, not with her voice, but with her tapestry. 302 00:20:23.359 --> 00:20:28.200 With images, she creates a textile and also a text 303 00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:33.720 and then she creates a thing of beauty. So to me, 304 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:40.680 what resonated with me was this sort of entanglement of 305 00:20:41.480 --> 00:20:48.839 both beauty and justice in our storytelling practices in general. 306 00:20:49.720 --> 00:20:53.759 And so this is this is how she became my heroin. 307 00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:56.720 And then she led me to all of these other 308 00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:03.519 fascinating spiders in not just in literature, but in mythology. 309 00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:09.440 There's a Nanzi, the African trickster god, who is also 310 00:21:09.519 --> 00:21:14.279 a master linguist and storyteller. And then there's the Navajo 311 00:21:15.559 --> 00:21:22.079 grandmother spider, who creates the world by weaving, not by 312 00:21:22.119 --> 00:21:25.720 saying let there be light, or using you know, words 313 00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:30.319 naming things. But she does this with the sky god. 314 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:34.079 And I love these parent mythologies where you have a 315 00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:39.079 male and a female god goddess creating the world and 316 00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:43.640 then by you know, this wonderful act of weaving, creating fabrics, 317 00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:49.720 these protective materials. And if you you know, Freud once 318 00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:55.079 said that weaving was the only contribution that women made 319 00:21:55.119 --> 00:22:01.519 to civilization, which I guess laughable exactly. 320 00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:03.240 But also there's a lot of depth behind that. 321 00:22:03.640 --> 00:22:05.440 There's a lot of death they had that And then 322 00:22:05.480 --> 00:22:09.079 if you think of weaving versus tool making, you know, 323 00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:13.839 man the toolmaker and woman the weaver. Who these women 324 00:22:13.880 --> 00:22:22.480 are creating protective coverings, everything from blankets to tense to 325 00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:28.119 and so on. So I think Freud, you know, underestimated 326 00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:32.279 what women did, but he also underestimated the power of 327 00:22:32.359 --> 00:22:36.440 weaving and the importance of that to our culture. 328 00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:40.440 And you know, I can't help but point to you know, 329 00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:42.240 for the listeners of the show who have been with 330 00:22:42.279 --> 00:22:45.599 me for a while, it actually you don't even have 331 00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:47.200 to have been with me for that long because this 332 00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:50.680 only dates back to February. But I had an author 333 00:22:50.759 --> 00:22:54.200 on this show an author and research psychologist and knitter 334 00:22:55.519 --> 00:22:59.440 named Nicole Narek who wrote a book with her own 335 00:22:59.480 --> 00:23:03.119 handsmen Weaving their Stories. And one of the things that 336 00:23:03.160 --> 00:23:07.200 we really dug deep into was this like quintessentially feminist 337 00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:11.000 act that has existed throughout a lot of human history 338 00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:16.440 where women who were uh, you know, they really were 339 00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:20.000 in a lot of ways stripped of any sort of 340 00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:25.079 voice within the public arena. They were able to tell 341 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:29.839 their tales through things like you know, let's say, like 342 00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:33.640 the biotapestry or these different very famous works of art 343 00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:36.759 that very likely it was women who made them, and 344 00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:42.279 they interjected a lot of women's perspective in this work. 345 00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:45.079 And gosh, there's so much crossover there with your with 346 00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:47.920 your spiders, who are of course weaving their webs. 347 00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:51.920 Oh, I have to listen to that podcast for sure. 348 00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:56.559 And you brought up knitting. Of one of the sections 349 00:23:56.599 --> 00:24:02.279 of my book looks at spinster sleuth who are often 350 00:24:02.519 --> 00:24:05.000 you know, you get the physical description of them, and 351 00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:09.359 you realize that there had to be some sort of 352 00:24:09.400 --> 00:24:13.680 awareness that these women all look like spiders. They're wearing black, 353 00:24:13.799 --> 00:24:18.599 they've got you know, and they're knitting. And this connection 354 00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:22.599 between knitting and sleuthing, I mean, soothing. Detective work was 355 00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:25.440 one of the things that women could do where they 356 00:24:25.480 --> 00:24:28.920 did have some agency, although not a voice, as you 357 00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:35.200 point out, because who had the voice the police officials, 358 00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:38.920 public of the government, you know, judges, And here are 359 00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:43.880 these women, you know, knitting, puzzling things out, figuring things out, 360 00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:48.319 and staying ahead of the officials who are who are 361 00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:53.640 not very good at solving mysteries and crimes. 362 00:24:54.839 --> 00:24:55.720 Spider women. 363 00:24:57.599 --> 00:25:01.640 I love it, and I love the just the etymology. 364 00:25:01.759 --> 00:25:04.160 You know, you were talking earlier about your work in 365 00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:09.480 German and really digging deep into not just the era, 366 00:25:09.720 --> 00:25:13.559 but of course the language itself. I love that this book. 367 00:25:13.640 --> 00:25:18.839 Of course it's a book about spiders by you. So 368 00:25:18.839 --> 00:25:21.440 so this is one of those lovely times when etymology 369 00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:25.160 and entomology it should not be mixed up, but are 370 00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:28.119 both quite relevant. But I think about terms, you know, 371 00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:32.039 we we do we we weave a we tell a 372 00:25:32.119 --> 00:25:36.599 yarn or weave a yarn like like webs spear story. Yeah, 373 00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:41.160 their stories, their tales. Do you know where that comes from? 374 00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:44.000 Like what that actually dates back to this idea of 375 00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:48.839 the story being a web that was woven. 376 00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:52.799 Well, I think that it actually goes back to the Greeks, 377 00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:56.200 where sewing and poetry were connected. 378 00:25:56.279 --> 00:25:58.279 You sewed words together. 379 00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:03.920 And then you have I mean it's hard to trace 380 00:26:04.039 --> 00:26:08.599 this perfectly, but I always think of these spinning rooms 381 00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:13.680 and as I said, sewing circles, these places where people 382 00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:19.640 gathered and you know they were carrying out household chores 383 00:26:19.720 --> 00:26:22.799 I mean, knitting. You have to have something else there, 384 00:26:22.839 --> 00:26:26.400 just like the cigar rollers who listen to novels, who 385 00:26:26.440 --> 00:26:30.839 have novels read to them. When you have work that 386 00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:35.519 is repetitive, you really need, you desperately need a good story. 387 00:26:35.880 --> 00:26:41.799 And remember nineteenth, eighteenth, nineteenth century, earlier times, no electronic entertainments, 388 00:26:42.599 --> 00:26:49.519 long dark evenings, so you needed really peppy, melodramatic, racy, 389 00:26:50.160 --> 00:26:53.279 racy stories to keep things things going. And that's what 390 00:26:53.759 --> 00:26:57.680 you know we do for spinning tails, spinning yarns, or 391 00:26:57.759 --> 00:27:01.680 weaving webs. And then I mean we could even take 392 00:27:01.720 --> 00:27:05.640 it up to the World Wide Web and the way 393 00:27:05.720 --> 00:27:13.119 that many women were involved in the beginnings of uh well, 394 00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:16.200 not not just artificial but you know, just the computer 395 00:27:16.359 --> 00:27:20.880 in general and programming and that kind of thing. 396 00:27:21.960 --> 00:27:25.920 How much has your work throughout your career been interested 397 00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:31.279 in the social justice components of stories, maybe you know, 398 00:27:31.359 --> 00:27:35.039 a feminist perspective or an intersectional perspective. I know that 399 00:27:35.079 --> 00:27:39.160 you've written about Vymar Journey Germany. You've written about these 400 00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:47.160 very kind of of their time, before their time, experiences 401 00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:50.720