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Speaker 2: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
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Speaker 2: every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 2: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 2: your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
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Speaker 4: recruiter the smartest way to hire. Wealthy, beautiful and brilliant
Speaker 4: Shell Danishevsky had fulfillment at her fingertips. Having conquered Wall Street.
Speaker 4: She was eager to build a family with her much
Speaker 4: younger husband, promising Ivy League graduate Rod Coblin, But when
Speaker 4: his hidden vice's surface, marital harmony gave way to a
Speaker 4: merciless divorce. Rod had long depended on Shell's income to
Speaker 4: fund his tastes for high stakes backgammon and infidelity. And
Speaker 4: she finally vowed to sever him from her will. In
Speaker 4: late December two thousand and nine, Shell made an appointment
Speaker 4: with her lawyer to block him from her millions. She
Speaker 4: would never make it to that meeting. Two days later,
Speaker 4: on New Year's Eve, Shell was found dead in the
Speaker 4: bathtub of her Upper West Side apartment. Police ruled it
Speaker 4: in an accident, and Shell's deeply orthodox Jewish family quickly
Speaker 4: buried her without an autopsy on religious grounds. Rod had
Speaker 4: a clear path to his ex wife's fortune, but suspicions
Speaker 4: about her death lingered. As the two families warred over
Speaker 4: custody of Shell's children and their inheritance. Rod concocted a
Speaker 4: series of increasingly demented schemes, even plotting to kill his
Speaker 4: own parents to secure the treasure, and as investigators closed in,
Speaker 4: Rod committed a final desperate act to frame his own
Speaker 4: daughter for her mother's death. Journalists Rebecca Rosenberg and Selim
Speaker 4: Algar reconstruct the ten years that passed between the day's
Speaker 4: Shell was found dead and the day her killer faced justice.
Speaker 4: In this riveting account of how one man's irrepressible greed
Speaker 4: devolved into obsession, manipulation, and murder. The book that we're
Speaker 4: featuring this evening is at any cost, with my special guest,
Speaker 4: Salim Algar. Welcome to the program, and thank you very
Speaker 4: much for this interview. Salim Algar, thank you for having
Speaker 4: me Dan, I appreciate it. I apologize that we didn't
Speaker 4: have time to get the proper pronunciations of a certain name.
Speaker 4: So is there any name in that opening description synopsis
Speaker 4: that I missed?
Speaker 1: Now it's Shelley Shelley Danishevski and Rod Kopp, and those
Speaker 1: are the two main players in the book.
Speaker 4: The right Okay, thank you for that correction. I thought
Speaker 4: that might be the case, and we didn't have time
Speaker 4: for me to get that straightened out. Let's start by
Speaker 4: how you came and co author Rebecca Rosenberg, your wife,
Speaker 4: to how you both came to this story. Tell us
Speaker 4: about your journalistic background and why this story in particular,
Speaker 4: and you felt the need to write this book at
Speaker 4: any connest.
Speaker 1: Well, it's a pretty straightforward origin, Dan my life. Rebecca
Speaker 1: covers Manhattan Criminal Court for New York Post and she
Speaker 1: covered the trial from gabble to gabble, and I'm also
Speaker 1: a reporter at the same newspaper. At the Post, I
Speaker 1: cover the New York City Department of Education, and my
Speaker 1: focus is on education issues. But when she was considering
Speaker 1: this topic for a book, we sort of quickly realized,
Speaker 1: or she did, that it would be easier with we
Speaker 1: have two so it might be a bit more manageable
Speaker 1: with a helping hand. And so I was enlisted in
Speaker 1: the effort, and we had a pretty quick turnaround on
Speaker 1: the deadline. And so two sets of hands on the
Speaker 1: laptops were better than one, I suppose. So that's how
Speaker 1: would be end great.
Speaker 4: Now, you take us to you as you do in
Speaker 4: the book, to New Year's Eve two thousand and nine,
Speaker 4: and a young girl named Anna Coblin, nine years old,
Speaker 4: and her brother Miles who's three, and Shelley, their mother,
Speaker 4: And this is in the middle of the night. So
Speaker 4: as you do in the book, take us to this
Speaker 4: scene where young Anna gets up and wants to know
Speaker 4: where her mother is and goes looking.
Speaker 1: It was early morning and the sun was not yet up,
Speaker 1: and but Anna heard some water. She was awakened by
Speaker 1: the sound of rushing water nearby. She was in bed
Speaker 1: with her younger brother who's still sleeping. But when she awoke,
Speaker 1: she noticed that she wasn't that her mother, who she
Speaker 1: climbed into bed with, was no longer in the bed, so, obviously,
Speaker 1: as little kids aren't want to do, she went to
Speaker 1: look for her. And her brother Miles eventually joined her
Speaker 1: because her sort of activity awoke him, and they went
Speaker 1: to the bathroom in there. It's an apartment in Manhattan
Speaker 1: where they lived, and she looked in peered into the
Speaker 1: into the bathroom and saw her mom and with her
Speaker 1: back towards her, and just thought that she was taking
Speaker 1: a night bath to sort of distress Shelley. Her mother
Speaker 1: was a hard working and accomplished woman, and Anna thought
Speaker 1: that she was just taking a night bath, so went
Speaker 1: back to bed. But then when they woke up a
Speaker 1: few hours later, now the sun is up, she went
Speaker 1: back in to the bathroom and saw her mother in
Speaker 1: the bathtub with red and water and clearly not moving
Speaker 1: in an obvious state of I guess, not distress, but
Speaker 1: it was obvious that something was wrong.
Speaker 4: Now she has a situation where her father is living
Speaker 4: across the hall in a studio apartment, but she has
Speaker 4: permission to call her father if there's anything gone wrong
Speaker 4: or anything happened, So she does call that number and
Speaker 4: call so what happens with that phone call? What does
Speaker 4: she tell her father and what does he do?
Speaker 1: So her mother Shelley, and her father Rod were in
Speaker 1: the midst of a divorced but like many couples who
Speaker 1: were in that situation, they sought to make it as
Speaker 1: easy as possible on the kids, and so he took
Speaker 1: up residence across the hall and in an apartment in
Speaker 1: order to, you know, whenever there was visitation, he could
Speaker 1: just come over and see them. So it was at
Speaker 1: a convenience. So obviously Anna knew that her dad was
Speaker 1: across the way and called him. He goes roughly seven
Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning at this point and told him
Speaker 1: that something's wrong with mommy, and obviously, hearing that, he
Speaker 1: darted over across the hall and came into the apartment.
Speaker 4: So he performed some CPR as you write, and shortly
Speaker 4: after calls nine one one. The operator guides him through
Speaker 4: more steps of CPR before he dispenses with that. What
Speaker 4: else does he do while he's waiting? You know, many
Speaker 4: people are familiar with someone having the wherewithal to not
Speaker 4: touch a crime scene because they've watched televisi and then
Speaker 4: the procedure and the things that could happen. So but
Speaker 4: what does he do?
Speaker 1: He, like you recounted, he attempted to perform CPR and
Speaker 1: he was He called the nine to one one and
Speaker 1: the dispatcher tried to guide him through it. But it
Speaker 1: was pretty clear early on that these attempts were futile
Speaker 1: and that point it was a little more to do
Speaker 1: than to await the emergency crews to arrive. And he
Speaker 1: put the kid in a separate bedroom to sort of
Speaker 1: shield them from what was taking place. And initially when
Speaker 1: he went into the into the bathroom, he lifted her.
Speaker 1: He lifted Shelley out of the water and placed her
Speaker 1: on the bathroom floor before you know, trying to administer
Speaker 1: CPR and calling nine to one one. So he pretty
Speaker 1: it was clear that she she had likely passed at
Speaker 1: that point, and there was little more for him to
Speaker 1: do than just to await the emergency crews, the FDNY
Speaker 1: and the NYPD who were on route to the sea.
Speaker 4: You're right about EMS four EMS members and then people
Speaker 4: from the firefighters as well. So there was a person
Speaker 4: named Casey. What did first responders two of them William
Speaker 4: Rick's a firefighter, and Casey a member named casey, what
Speaker 4: did they notice about Shelley initially right on the floor
Speaker 4: and where was Rod when they came to the scene.
Speaker 1: So when they came in, he was in the bathroom
Speaker 1: near Shelley. And you know, these are veteran, big city
Speaker 1: New York City first responders. You have members of FDNY
Speaker 1: and members of NYPD, so it's not obviously they deal
Speaker 1: with extreme situations every day. So they pretty quickly recognized
Speaker 1: that Shelley was likely dead after you know, the acceptor
Speaker 1: for rigor mortis and she the limbs had set at
Speaker 1: this point and it was clear to them what had
Speaker 1: taken place. And then that's sort of when the police
Speaker 1: take over. The FDN, Y left, the firefighters who come
Speaker 1: to really most emergency scenes are left, and the investigations
Speaker 1: sort of began at that point. And the first person
Speaker 1: who arrived there was a firefighter and so sort of
Speaker 1: a pointed scene. You know, he opens this door and
Speaker 1: he looks down and sees a little girl looking at him,
Speaker 1: and you know, he asks her, you know, what's happening,
Speaker 1: and she just points down the hallway. She doesn't say anything,
Speaker 1: and that's when he comes upon Rod and Shelley.
Speaker 4: You right too, that Rod directs New York Police Department
Speaker 4: officers to a cabinet in the bathroom above the faucet
Speaker 4: that has been partially ripped from its hinges, and he
Speaker 4: immediately is again has the wherewithal to say, I think
Speaker 4: she may have grabbed a piece of wood from the
Speaker 4: cabinet and fell and hit her head. So he's offering
Speaker 4: what happened, and also offering and suggesting that this was
Speaker 4: purely an accident. So he tells these first responders that
Speaker 4: and says, I can't believe this is happening. And he
Speaker 4: also tells him that his wife had taken out a
Speaker 4: restraining order against him, and then that he had lived
Speaker 4: close to be near the children. However, with this information
Speaker 4: that the NYPD get what else do police do at
Speaker 4: that crime scene at that time?
Speaker 1: So, right, this was sort of obviously early on one
Speaker 1: of the major aspects of the case that they had
Speaker 1: sort of a rough sense of the situation in that
Speaker 1: they were in the middle of a divorce, there was
Speaker 1: a restraining order in place, that he lived across the hall,
Speaker 1: and obviously in those circumstances, people would assume that they
Speaker 1: would train their sort of focus on him in case
Speaker 1: there was indeed any foul play or anything suspicious about
Speaker 1: the circumstances, but he sort of preempted a lot of that,
Speaker 1: it seems, by offering rather quickly this explanation. There was
Speaker 1: a cabinet in the bathroom that had been dislodged from
Speaker 1: the wall, and he told them that perhaps she had
Speaker 1: lost her balance or slipped in some manner, and doing
Speaker 1: so sort of grasped this fixture and ripped it off.
Speaker 1: The hinge fell and hit her head. But it was
Speaker 1: obviously a a heavy critique early on of the detectives
Speaker 1: and the police officers at the scene for not sort
Speaker 1: of doing a more thorough pro baid into the entertained
Speaker 1: fouth play really as an option early on, and that
Speaker 1: would sort of play at the trial. They would play
Speaker 1: a major role at trial.
Speaker 4: There's another important character. There's been a nanny that's been
Speaker 4: with the family right since the birth of Anna, and
Speaker 4: she's nine years old, so she's been with the family
Speaker 4: for nine years and is the principal caregiver for this family.
Speaker 4: And her name is Hyacinth reed Or, she goes by
Speaker 4: the name Rose, and she's a Jamaican woman. And she
Speaker 4: gets arrives at the apartment just after eight with her
Speaker 4: grandson to play with the children as well, her grandson JJ.
Speaker 4: She asked right away where the kids are and asked
Speaker 4: where Shelley was, and the police are there as well,
Speaker 4: and Rod is there, and what is the response to
Speaker 4: her questions? And then what does she have to say?
Speaker 1: So high Or Rhodes was an integral part of this family,
Speaker 1: their day to day routine. She would take the kids
Speaker 1: to school, and Shelley came to really rely on her
Speaker 1: for a lot of fundamental things, especially once the relationship dissolved,
Speaker 1: and so she sort of knew, she knew the lay
Speaker 1: of the land in terms of the deterioration of the
Speaker 1: of the family and the relationship. And so when she
Speaker 1: comes that day, as she approaches the front door of
Speaker 1: the apartment with her grandson, she can sort of odd
Speaker 1: to her that the door's open. She can hear some
Speaker 1: murmuring within the apartment, and then obviously once she sees
Speaker 1: the police officers inside, that was a clear sign that
Speaker 1: something was amiss. So she asked rather quickly, you know,
Speaker 1: where's Shelley, what's going on? And initially there was no
Speaker 1: response until finally Rod stoked and told her that Shelley
Speaker 1: was gone, and she was stunned. Obviously, this is someone
Speaker 1: that she had been with the night before, she'd been
Speaker 1: with the kids, you know, just the previous evening, and
Speaker 1: she had a cup of coffee in her hand from McDonald's.
Speaker 1: It was a cold day, and that fell from her
Speaker 1: hands and it's splat across the wall, and she collapsed
Speaker 1: along with it and began crying. And after a while
Speaker 1: when she sort of took stock and gathered herself and
Speaker 1: sort of to speak, she said, it's non an accident.
Speaker 1: So obviously that was suggestive early on that there were
Speaker 1: suspicions as to what had taken place. Shelley was young
Speaker 1: and vibrant. For her to die in such a sudden
Speaker 1: and abrupt manner in the bathtub was extraordinary. To put
Speaker 1: him mildly at that point, you talk.
Speaker 4: Now, we go back and give the background of Shelley
Speaker 4: Minna Danishevski born in July nineteen sixty two. Her dad, Joel,
Speaker 4: wife Jayleen, Polish immigrants living in Elizabeth, New Jersey, and
Speaker 4: father of Joel is a rabbi muls butcher, and he
Speaker 4: had a love of finance. Her sister that she's very
Speaker 4: close to his eve. Tell us about the family, tell
Speaker 4: us about briefly about the accident that scarred Shelley and
Speaker 4: where she is at the time that she meets Rod
Speaker 4: Coughlin in her life.
Speaker 1: So, Shelley was born to a religious Orthodox Jewish family
Speaker 1: and sort of the patriarch was Joel, her father. He
Speaker 1: sort of came up the hard way. He initially became
Speaker 1: a butcher. He was a Jewish butcher, a coach butcher
Speaker 1: on which actually required some sort of particular set of
Speaker 1: skills in order to in order to perform that function
Speaker 1: in that culture. And he also, while doing so, he
Speaker 1: was his father was a rabbi, and he had always
Speaker 1: hoped to follow in his footsteps and was a very
Speaker 1: religious man. But the work was difficult to find in
Speaker 1: the religious religious capacity. So he was sort of compelled
Speaker 1: to serve in this butcher role. But he sort of
Speaker 1: tied of that, and he would when his day was over,
Speaker 1: he would walk around downtown Elizabeth and there are banks there,
Speaker 1: and in most banks, especially back then, there was a
Speaker 1: stock ticker. And so here's this sort of this young
Speaker 1: man who had just come from butchering meat consumption, and
Speaker 1: he sees this rush of picker numbers and he sort
Speaker 1: of intrigued by it, and that would sort of spark
Speaker 1: an interest in finance. And you know, he obviously had
Speaker 1: to acknowledge that this was this was related to Wall
Speaker 1: Street and there were people made their made their fortunes
Speaker 1: in this manner one way or another. So he pursued
Speaker 1: that and would eventually earn a degree to that end
Speaker 1: and quickly applied his what what a pre exist things
Speaker 1: of the facility with numbers in maths, and he would
Speaker 1: earn a job on Wall Stream and start doing very
Speaker 1: well there. Meanwhile, he since as his financial prospects were improving,
Speaker 1: he and his wife, Jayleen, had children, and Shelley was
Speaker 1: one of his two beloved daughters, and they were a
Speaker 1: very close knit family, very sort of traditional Orthodox Jewish family.
Speaker 1: He was never one for a sort of lavish luxury instead,
Speaker 1: you know, he had the money to do it, but
Speaker 1: instead he really tried to instill in his kids sort
Speaker 1: of an in a sense of industry and work ethic
Speaker 1: and piety and family sort of as the as the
Speaker 1: bedrock of their of their lives and their foundation. And
Speaker 1: as as far as we could discern, he had succeeded
Speaker 1: in doing so. This is a very Talina family. And
Speaker 1: this Shelley had did have an accident which Joel would
Speaker 1: blame himself for. When she was a little girl. They
Speaker 1: were having a dinner on a religious occasion at a
Speaker 1: friend's house and there is traditionally there's a an urn
Speaker 1: kept with hot water, and she tipped it over onto
Speaker 1: herself while the adults were in another room. And this
Speaker 1: it's called the samovar, and it's filled with scalding hot
Speaker 1: water that's normally used for teen and it splashed all
Speaker 1: across her torso and would end up scarring her very badly.
Speaker 1: And Joel, her other relatives would tell us, often blamed
Speaker 1: himself for this. I mean she she had to undergo
Speaker 1: skin grass and there was a lot of permanent scar
Speaker 1: so it wasn't sort of a brief episode in their life,
Speaker 1: something that would sort of plagued her and her sense
Speaker 1: of self esteem, you know well and for her into
Speaker 1: her teens and even sort of early sort of college years.
Speaker 1: And Joe well for that reason, since he did blame
Speaker 1: himself for not sort of protecting his little girl against
Speaker 1: this accident, unlike his other kids, who he was very
Speaker 1: demanding of in terms of their academic performance. He was
Speaker 1: a little more lax, was Shelley, and so her performance
Speaker 1: in school wasn't as good. But they were reluctant to
Speaker 1: get on her about it, because again there was a
Speaker 1: sort of underlying guilt, and his main concern was that
Speaker 1: she was comfortable and she was happy. And sometimes his
Speaker 1: hands can tell you that could lead, you, know, that
Speaker 1: being to some bad habits because you're a little too permissive,
Speaker 1: and that has a negative consequence. But Shelley was. She
Speaker 1: was also a little bit overweight because of this issue
Speaker 1: to self esteem issue and sort of sense of inadequacy.
Speaker 1: So in her high school years, you know, she wasn't
Speaker 1: quite in the popular crowd. But once she got to
Speaker 1: college in Manhattan, she went to Pace University. Once she
Speaker 1: got there, she shed a lot of these issues, and
Speaker 1: she lost a lot of weight, and she looked more
Speaker 1: sociable men. Partially, one can assume that perhaps it's because
Speaker 1: she was sort of no longer in the parental under
Speaker 1: primal watch, and like anyone who's starting off in college,
Speaker 1: she was able to spread her wings a little bit,
Speaker 1: so she adjusted well. She was she accepted her this
Speaker 1: scarring from this burn as just sort of something she
Speaker 1: can deal with and then you know, make manageable. She
Speaker 1: lost live weight and her beauty, her dormant beauty sort
Speaker 1: of burst of the four and she was well on
Speaker 1: her way. She graduated in financed and slowly worked her
Speaker 1: way up with some with her father's help in that
Speaker 1: world on Wall Street, but she did have a difficulty
Speaker 1: with sort of finding a suitable mate. Her sister Eve
Speaker 1: would eventually get married and have a child, and to
Speaker 1: a man they both really respected, but she in that
Speaker 1: department she was running into some complications and the relationships
Speaker 1: would come and go, and her family would It was
Speaker 1: fun to get a little concerned. She was getting older,
Speaker 1: into her later twenties and early thirties, and very still
Speaker 1: that the husband had not yet appeared at this point,
Speaker 1: and she really again because of her own family background,
Speaker 1: you know, children and that model was really prized and
Speaker 1: there was a sense of enough death graces too strong
Speaker 1: a word, but she knew that this was a void
Speaker 1: in her life that she really wanted to fill, especially
Speaker 1: with her older siblings married and she was the only
Speaker 1: one at this point who wasn't and she would date frequently,
Speaker 1: but the mates weren't always on the highest caliber. That's
Speaker 1: what her family progress. And then one night she went
Speaker 1: to an event in the city and.
Speaker 4: Rod, yes, you talk about February fifteenth, nineteen ninety eight,
Speaker 4: Shelley calls her sister Eve and says, I've met my
Speaker 4: soulmate and we're going to Vegas to get married.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 4: Eve knows that she hasn't had much luck and then
Speaker 4: hasn't had the best choices in men either. Kind of
Speaker 4: ridiculous dates that she has witnessed, but she's She pleads
Speaker 4: with her to say, listen, don't do this to her parents,
Speaker 4: you know, think of mom and Dad will break their heart.
Speaker 4: So she reassures Eve that she's not going to go
Speaker 4: get married to him in Vegas that night, but she
Speaker 4: tells him about this guy six foot two, muscular, martial
Speaker 4: arts blue eyes, raised as a traditional Jewish person and
Speaker 4: engineer degree. So he presented himself as a really good
Speaker 4: catch and a budding tech entrepreneur. So she was very
Speaker 4: very excited about Rod Kablin, wasn't she But this as
Speaker 4: an opportunity just to stop for a second for the
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Speaker 4: we were talking about she finally meets this person that
Speaker 4: she believes is her soulmate as she described to her sister.
Speaker 4: But right away when the sisters meet this dream guy, Rod,
Speaker 4: what is their first impression and why?
Speaker 1: So Eve thought that odd? But again, the entire family
Speaker 1: was rooting for her to sort of finally settle down
Speaker 1: and have children, and she had sold his attributes with
Speaker 1: such enthusiasm to everyone that she was willing to sort
Speaker 1: of overlook it and chalk it up to maybe, you know,
Speaker 1: he's having a bad day or he's shy, something along
Speaker 1: those lines. So her initial instincts were that there was
Speaker 1: something a bit off, but it's something that was that
Speaker 1: they could get through.
Speaker 4: Now we have to compress this story to be able
Speaker 4: to explain this incredible twisting and turning story that it
Speaker 4: would seem from the introduction that we gave that the police,
Speaker 4: regardless of some of the evidence that they didn't collect
Speaker 4: and they didn't gather, and there's a suspicion that they
Speaker 4: didn't have that at some point they find out this information.
Speaker 4: So in this marriage, they have two children and it
Speaker 4: lasts over ten years. But right from that very first
Speaker 4: impression of the family about Rod and his desire to
Speaker 4: be a good husband to their sister Shelley, there are
Speaker 4: signs right away. She's the breadwinner and he has some
Speaker 4: ideas about being a budding entrepreneur. However, he doesn't work
Speaker 4: and she works even harder. And those bad habits about
Speaker 4: him believing that he could be a backgammon champion tell
Speaker 4: us just a little bit about his character that very
Speaker 4: very quickly comes into it. The sight and even the
Speaker 4: family notices some of the things that are just playing
Speaker 4: wrong about Rod Coughlin.
Speaker 1: So on paper, he was impressive, he had all the
Speaker 1: right degree he was a charge, he was a good conversationalist,
Speaker 1: he was witty. So on that surface level, he had promised,
Speaker 1: and is what Shelley had always assumed, is that he
Speaker 1: would put these degrees to use as an IVY League
Speaker 1: graduate and that he would eventually make it somewhere in
Speaker 1: the tech field. That's where his interests were. And so
Speaker 1: the assumption was that at some point he would bring
Speaker 1: these talents to bear. But slowly, as the marriage progressed,
Speaker 1: she would notice that, you know, there's very little enthusiasm
Speaker 1: for full time work. Now she, like I said prior,
Speaker 1: she was now working on Wall Street in a various
Speaker 1: sort of lucrative positions. She worked alongside her father and
Speaker 1: her sibling, and so she was bringing plenty of money
Speaker 1: and they lived comfortably. But again the dpcheck's work only
Speaker 1: coming from her from her end, and he was increasingly
Speaker 1: focused not on gainful employment but developing his skills in
Speaker 1: the gaming backgen which played sort of a which was
Speaker 1: an undercurrent through the book. He had a real affinity
Speaker 1: for the for the game, and there is a there's
Speaker 1: a professional circuit. A lot of people don't know that
Speaker 1: but it's something we discovered and sort of researching the book.
Speaker 1: But there's actually a there's prize money to be had
Speaker 1: on the professional level, and so he would dedicate more
Speaker 1: and more of his time to pursuing that, and he
Speaker 1: was convinced that he would be able to produce sizeable
Speaker 1: income for the family once he attained the sort of
Speaker 1: back end and stardom. And at first, Shelley it sort
Speaker 1: of dismissed it as sort of a fancy that was
Speaker 1: a sort of thing that would eventually subside. But more
Speaker 1: and more the months in the years pasted, it became
Speaker 1: something an obsession, and he would travel constantly to these tournaments.
Speaker 1: Uh and the obviously wasn't the winnings would occasional and
Speaker 1: large and significant. So the concern began to began to
Speaker 1: spiral in both Shelley and her family couldn't help noticing
Speaker 1: from a she was the one working while he was
Speaker 1: the one indulging in recreation, and that's what concerns really
Speaker 1: started to service.
Speaker 4: You talk about backgammon two, He used that as a
Speaker 4: premise to philander with other women online, and she soon
Speaker 4: found out whether he let her find out or she
Speaker 4: found out through an email that he was basically having
Speaker 4: affairs or consorting with prostitutes, but he was definitely stepping
Speaker 4: out from her in this marriage. Along with that, the
Speaker 4: family noticed, and she definitely noticed that he was berating
Speaker 4: her about her looks. In the beginning, he was a
Speaker 4: real charmer, giving her flowers and nothing but compliments, but
Speaker 4: now there was nothing but criticism and so fast forward
Speaker 4: in this relationship. He really has a problem with looking
Speaker 4: at the obvious signs. As Eve tells her, look are
Speaker 4: you are you crazy taking this guy back, considering the
Speaker 4: things that he has done to her, that he said
Speaker 4: to her, that he's threatened her so over this so quickly.
Speaker 4: But in that ten year period, this dream marriage turned
Speaker 4: into a nightmare for Shelley, and she tells other people friends,
Speaker 4: the nanny knows some things. She tells other friends. He
Speaker 4: confides in people, and she makes moves toward thinking that
Speaker 4: she needs to protect her children, to protect her finances,
Speaker 4: and to change her will. Now tell us about how
Speaker 4: he responds to all of this and what she does
Speaker 4: in response to what he does to try to thwart
Speaker 4: her efforts.
Speaker 1: Shelley was reluctant to render the marriage for many reasons.
Speaker 1: They had the children, she really did want to establish,
Speaker 1: say harmonious home. But soon, you know, as the time
Speaker 1: kicked off, she realized that certain things weren't going to change,
Speaker 1: and obviously the situation became untenable for her once the
Speaker 1: intibelity came to light, and it was widespread and constant,
Speaker 1: and at one point he even suggested that they have
Speaker 1: an open marriage. And these were things that obviously Shelley
Speaker 1: had no interest in, did nothing other than drive her away,
Speaker 1: and eventually she grew hired of a lot of this
Speaker 1: reverbal attacks, and Rob would yell at her for no
Speaker 1: on very limited grounds in public in front of her family,
Speaker 1: and her defenses warway, and she finally decided she'd had
Speaker 1: enough and that she Her concern at this point was
Speaker 1: sort of expelling him, severing him from the will. She
Speaker 1: had a pretticizable life insurance policies and other assets, and
Speaker 1: her concern was that he would from a commandeer these
Speaker 1: funds at some point. So her goal was to meet
Speaker 1: with a lawyer and to write him out of her will,
Speaker 1: and then that would have actually free her from him
Speaker 1: completely and allow her to move on with her life.
Speaker 1: But obviously it didn't get that far right.
Speaker 4: Now this is a New Year's even. Now you take
Speaker 4: this back to the crime scene, and also why there
Speaker 4: is a reasons for this investigation to eventually because the
Speaker 4: family again pushes and there was a interesting medical examiner
Speaker 4: named Hayes that goes against his superior name hersh and
Speaker 4: this won't let this case go because what we hadn't
Speaker 4: mentioned is that this mean and initially came to that
Speaker 4: crime scene. What he was astonished at was there was
Speaker 4: red and some of them an inch and a half
Speaker 4: in length, scratches on the lower half of Shelley's face,
Speaker 4: as well as contusion on her lip and bruises on
Speaker 4: her elbow and arm in various places. And he stuck
Speaker 4: with this and was instrumental in helping this case because
Speaker 4: again another complication of this is the Orthodox Jewish religion
Speaker 4: and also the idea that unless there's some incredible reason
Speaker 4: for desecration, as they call it, of this body, that
Speaker 4: they would not authorize an autopsy. So combined with I
Speaker 4: guess the persuasiveness of Rod Coblin and also what seemingly
Speaker 4: ineptitude by the New York Police Department that this idea
Speaker 4: that he had something to do with this This M. E.
Speaker 4: Hayes was instrumental in keeping that investigation and that information alive.
Speaker 1: Wasn't me yes. So initially, after Shelley passed, they were
Speaker 1: faced with a decision. Her family was faced with a
Speaker 1: very serious decision and a very reaching decision. They obviously
Speaker 1: had their suspicions about what took place that night. They
Speaker 1: knew the details of her personal life or relationship with Rod,
Speaker 1: so they had their sufficience, but that competed against their
Speaker 1: religious beliefs, which in the Orthodox tourist faith, autopsies are
Speaker 1: frowned upon because it's seen like you, like you had said,
Speaker 1: it's seen as a disturbance of the body prior to burial,
Speaker 1: and in order for the soul to transit to the
Speaker 1: afterlife in an orderly way, then you need the undisturbed
Speaker 1: course in order to do so. An autopsy obviously is
Speaker 1: very invasive, and that procedure is in their mind, complicates that.
Speaker 1: So they had to deal with this issue, and Joel,
Speaker 1: Shelley's father, she sought out sort of higher religious authorities
Speaker 1: in another rabbi to counsel him on what to do.
Speaker 1: At first, you know, they since they had this it's
Speaker 1: difficult decision to make. The rabbi initially agreed to do
Speaker 1: it because Joel explained the circumstances of Shelley's death and
Speaker 1: this this this other rabbi said, you know what, if
Speaker 1: there's any situation that would call for it, that this
Speaker 1: would be it. But there was yet another wrinkle in
Speaker 1: this case that would prevent that autosy from taking place.
Speaker 1: So before Hayes, who had been seeking to do it
Speaker 1: because he had a suspicion, paid the New York City
Speaker 1: Medical Examiner before he could perform the procedure. There is
Speaker 1: a group in a Jewish Orthodox Jewish group called Masas
Speaker 1: Camp and their role is to assist Orthodox Jewish families
Speaker 1: in dealing with the aftermath of a death. So they
Speaker 1: assist with the grieving. So they helped us the grieving process.
Speaker 1: They really do whatever family needs and they they're seen
Speaker 1: a sort of a vital service. But they are especially
Speaker 1: opposed to autoxity's on religious grounds for the reasons that
Speaker 1: I mentioned previously. And they had representatives who sort of
Speaker 1: held himself out as a rabbi member of the Sauce
Speaker 1: cam who was told about the death of Shelley and
Speaker 1: he knew that this was a member of the Orthodosteish community,
Speaker 1: and he went to the scene of the crime and
Speaker 1: he was admitted to it. And his role there as
Speaker 1: a representative of this group is to collect any sort
Speaker 1: of body fluids, anything that would that should be buried
Speaker 1: along with Shelley. So he goes to the scene. Then
Speaker 1: that's a whole other complicating factor why he was given
Speaker 1: such free way to go in. But he managed to
Speaker 1: convince them that he was a religious representative and he
Speaker 1: was admitted. So once he had his rounds in the
Speaker 1: in the apartment of the crime scene, he called the
Speaker 1: family and once Joel told him that they would playing
Speaker 1: on an autopsy, he vigorously, vigorously opposed it and told him, no, no,
Speaker 1: this was an accident. I talked to some of the
Speaker 1: detectives in the case and they assured me there's no
Speaker 1: foul play here. Don't do it, you know, don't do it.
Speaker 1: So Joel, and you can imagine how difficult decision this
Speaker 1: was for him, sitting there at his dining room table,
Speaker 1: struggling with this. You know, on the one hand, his
Speaker 1: daughter is dead and he has his suspicions about her husband,
Speaker 1: and on the other hand, he has these religious pressures
Speaker 1: on the other side, So it was really a very
Speaker 1: difficult and challenging positions for him to be in, and
Speaker 1: he relented and he called it off. Hayes, the medical
Speaker 1: examiner was literally from what he said, a trial was
Speaker 1: about to make the initial decisions that you know, would
Speaker 1: have maybe brought them closer to the truth. And he
Speaker 1: got a call and they said, no, put put it down,
Speaker 1: we eject, and he was bound to that.
Speaker 4: Now we have to talk about Deborah OLiS because after
Speaker 4: this fatality, after Shelly's death, he goes on dating, meeting
Speaker 4: many people online and goes through journey's for a period
Speaker 4: of time anyway, but he meets somebody named Deborah OLiS,
Speaker 4: and he's foolish enough to confide in her along the way,
Speaker 4: and when it comes time for him to be indicted,
Speaker 4: she has some concerns about some of the things he
Speaker 4: has already said to her, so she starts recording some
Speaker 4: of these conversations and eventually, eventually she goes to a
Speaker 4: detective that had initially spoken to her, and she has
Speaker 4: a pang of conscience and contacts this detective Mooney to
Speaker 4: say some things. We have to sort of jump ahead
Speaker 4: to the investigation that finally looks at the same evidence
Speaker 4: and then calls for an exhamation of the body. Tell
Speaker 4: us about that.
Speaker 1: All throughout this process. So it's a long period of
Speaker 1: time here that we're talking about that obviously we're having
Speaker 1: to condense. But all throughout this period, the family has
Speaker 1: their suspicience, and especially Peve and her husband Mark, they
Speaker 1: were growing increasingly frustrated with what was happening. They had
Speaker 1: suspicions about rog involvement, and they are unrelenting in their
Speaker 1: pressure on the Manhattan District Attorney's Office and anyone they
Speaker 1: can talk to me NYPD to keep pressing and keep
Speaker 1: pressing on the case. And finally there these efforts came
Speaker 1: to a head and again what was still a very
Speaker 1: difficult decision for the family. They decided that an eglamation
Speaker 1: was unavoidable at this point and that exlamation would allow
Speaker 1: for an autopsy. And more and more evidence leaked out
Speaker 1: as to sort of Rocks potential involvement in Lly's killing.
Speaker 1: It became too much for THEMPT to ignore, and the
Speaker 1: examation was the agreed. Payse, who was sort of was
Speaker 1: struttled in his previous attempt to conduct the autopsy was
Speaker 1: now able to do.
Speaker 4: So when he did that initial examination, he still could
Speaker 4: see it was two months later, but she was fairly
Speaker 4: it wasn't so decomposed because it had been winter. He
Speaker 4: could still see those scratches on her face. But a
Speaker 4: very very interesting thing happened. And as a break in
Speaker 4: the case, what did he find in his more thorough
Speaker 4: examination via the autopsy.
Speaker 1: So the discovery that a sense he turned the case
Speaker 1: during the autopsy. During Hayes's autopsy was a broken highly
Speaker 1: the bone in the net, which is a very difficult
Speaker 1: bone to break instead of the random manner, and it's
Speaker 1: often suggestive of something else he's made. This made this discovery.
Speaker 1: There are some other signs too now that he was
Speaker 1: really able to conduct a comprehensive, you know, investigation, conferhensive autopsy.
Speaker 1: They were marks in her eyes middle sort of that
Speaker 1: it's called the tech gid and they those are also
Speaker 1: suggestive indicative of it indicates the squeezing of the neck
Speaker 1: that pops vessels in the eyes. And these are very
Speaker 1: difficult theater, they're they're very small. So these are the
Speaker 1: These are two elements that Hayes found in his autopsy
Speaker 1: and at that point, the manner of death was changed
Speaker 1: on the death certificate, and and you know, in place
Speaker 1: of whatever benign ward was there previously was replaced with homicide. Uh.
Speaker 1: And that is what really set things accelerated the entire
Speaker 1: the entire story at that point.
Speaker 4: Now, once they had that, the same investigator is very interesting,
Speaker 4: a guy named a Roode Armatil maybe saying Rodermil. Yeah,
Speaker 4: this guy was instrumental in ignoring evidence at that crime
Speaker 4: scene and was adamant that this was an accident to
Speaker 4: certain people. And this guy has to go back and
Speaker 4: they have to look at and have to do a
Speaker 4: search warrant again at the previous at Shelley's apartment. But
Speaker 4: they also and you can tell us what they find
Speaker 4: at the apartment, but also they did gather devices from
Speaker 4: from Deborah OLiS and also the recordings that he had
Speaker 4: made and any kind of messages between them. So the
Speaker 4: gathering of all kinds of cell phone information takes them
Speaker 4: a year and a half to process and analyze all this. Meanwhile,
Speaker 4: Rod sits in jail on bail eventually or without bail,
Speaker 4: pardon me, eventually, So tell us what else they find
Speaker 4: at this interestingly, at the crime scene especially regarding I
Speaker 4: think an that's super important I thought was the issue
Speaker 4: of the door and him having any access door of
Speaker 4: that apartment that he was not supposed to be having
Speaker 4: any access to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was one scene that Mark and Eve recalled
Speaker 1: soon after and when Rod was still free. They had
Speaker 1: gone the two ples home to the apartment and we're
Speaker 1: having trouble opening the lock. This is after the passing.
Speaker 1: Obviously they were having trouble opening the lock, and he
Speaker 1: came to He appeared because he was he was across
Speaker 1: the hall. He came and really quickly opened it, was
Speaker 1: able to open it. So they obviously when they were
Speaker 1: in retrospect, they were surprised by this because how would
Speaker 1: he have such familiarity and ability to negotiate this this
Speaker 1: troublesome luck so that obviously in their mind and the
Speaker 1: system that they told us later was some had hidened
Speaker 1: their suspicions. And you mentioned the detective Rotormail. So because
Speaker 1: the homicide determination was sort of belated because of the
Speaker 1: delayed autos and so forth, he had to sort of
Speaker 1: go and cover ground that really probably should have been
Speaker 1: covered initially. So this is really sort of basic steps
Speaker 1: from getting surveillance cameras from the building to talking to
Speaker 1: people in the building. I mean, I think things that
Speaker 1: you would have thought would have been done in the
Speaker 1: first sort of forty eight hours after this happened, but
Speaker 1: they had to go back in essence because of this
Speaker 1: lengthy delay and go what they should have done previously.
Speaker 1: Now this would hamper the prosecution's case in court, because
Speaker 1: you know, a mishandled police investigation compromises the case pretty severely,
Speaker 1: and so that was also an issue. But on the
Speaker 1: other hand, the prosecution benefited, as you said, from this
Speaker 1: trobe that they were provided by by Debra and came
Speaker 1: to trust her and would contride in her many many
Speaker 1: different things, and a lot of them would ultimately become
Speaker 1: damaging and probably pivotal at trial. And she turned over
Speaker 1: devices to NYPDS. She would said later. She said later
Speaker 1: that she she had her suspicions about Rod and she
Speaker 1: was angry also about some of the mistreatment that she
Speaker 1: suffered at his hands. So the prosecutions that have had
Speaker 1: some benefits when this finally hit the courtroom, and they
Speaker 1: also had some some disadvantages.
Speaker 4: It was interesting to you outline everything that goes on,
Speaker 4: and interestingly, the evidence that was immaterial and deemed prejudicial
Speaker 4: for the jury. And that's some things like and we
Speaker 4: had talked about it in the introduction about his daughter
Speaker 4: and his plans, but this was discussed with Deborah OLiS
Speaker 4: and about plans for Anna to accuse her g own
Speaker 4: grandfather of raping her. And as we didn't mention in
Speaker 4: this at the very beginning of the book, Rod is
Speaker 4: successful with the same kind of baseless allegation to help
Speaker 4: his father out many many years before. So it's very
Speaker 4: interesting this pattern is repeated and a couple times here
Speaker 4: in his quest to try to made prosecution in this.
Speaker 4: But he definitely talks to Anna also about unbelievably confessing
Speaker 4: to the murder of her own mother because she won't
Speaker 4: do much time. And so these kinds of things obviously
Speaker 4: are so prejudicial to a jury that they would be
Speaker 4: convicted just hearing these things. But all kinds of other
Speaker 4: damaging and incriminating evidence was allowed at this trial, wasn't it.
Speaker 1: So in the end it was a largely circumstantial case,
Speaker 1: and the prosecution knew that there was no smoking gun.
Speaker 1: There was the physical evidence who was very limited. So
Speaker 1: the prosecution was, you know, they had an ill decline,
Speaker 1: and in order to get them up that hill, they
Speaker 1: relied largely on this sort of secondary or unrelated material
Speaker 1: related to Rod's character and these various schemes that he
Speaker 1: asked in relations to his parents, to his daughter, and
Speaker 1: as you stated, these theither aspects of someone's character that
Speaker 1: would not help them in front of jury. And the
Speaker 1: defense knew this and the prosecution knew this. So the
Speaker 1: case would eventually turn on what was admitted and what wasn't.
Speaker 1: And the prosecutor, Matthew bogdanos or that emant about getting
Speaker 1: in as much as he could in order to show
Speaker 1: the jury here was a man who had the capacity
Speaker 1: and the moral deficiencies to commit what he is accused of,
Speaker 1: and because he had to, because there's really not much
Speaker 1: else that he could lean on the secure conviction. And
Speaker 1: on the other end, the defense attorney, Robert Gottlieb would
Speaker 1: argue that, you know, the you can't find someone guilty
Speaker 1: of murder because they are of poor character. And he
Speaker 1: leaned on this as best he could in making his arguments,
Speaker 1: but enough made it in we are he was sort
Speaker 1: of look at the final result that would convince the
Speaker 1: jury that he did it. What was his sentence, his
Speaker 1: sentence second degree murdered. Also, yeah, he was convicted of
Speaker 1: murder and he got the twenty five years to life.
Speaker 1: He got what you get in New York for a
Speaker 1: crime of this magnitude. And that's where he.
Speaker 4: Is now, his heart wrench being near the end of
Speaker 4: this book, because we forget, well I don't know if
Speaker 4: we forget, because we were reminded in your in your
Speaker 4: very very sensitive book, that Anna is one heck of
Speaker 4: a victim here obviously, and there's victim impact statements made
Speaker 4: by the Danishevski's about their loss of their daughter and
Speaker 4: sister friend. And but Anna makes her own heartfelt statement
Speaker 4: at court, doesn't she.
Speaker 1: Yes, that was a pretty unforgettable moment during this trial. Now,
Speaker 1: you know, Anna was close to her father, and by
Speaker 1: many accounts, he's a good dad, and he was good
Speaker 1: not only to her but to her brother Miles, and
Speaker 1: was very involved with her life and was building and
Speaker 1: then helped them with their homework and did all the
Speaker 1: things that you know and many parents will. But the
Speaker 1: question asked her position on the on his guilt, because
Speaker 1: she never appeared at trial, she was never in the gallery,
Speaker 1: and she was doing too sort of unsteady a witness,
Speaker 1: I think for either side to call her a stand
Speaker 1: So there was a question mark sort of hovering over
Speaker 1: the trial as to sort of Anna's position. She was
Speaker 1: never there, and finally it was revealed to court that
Speaker 1: she was going to have a statement read in court.
Speaker 1: Statement was read by Rod's mother, so her grandmother. They
Speaker 1: also Rodg's parents also play pretty integrable in all this.
Speaker 1: But we only have an hour, so it's probably more
Speaker 1: than we can we can fit in. But yes, Anna
Speaker 1: spoke through a statement read by her by her grandmother.
Speaker 1: She completely guided with her father and said that she
Speaker 1: did not believe that he committed to back and was
Speaker 1: sponsorly defended him. And it was a pretty breathtaking moment
Speaker 1: during the trial. And it's one of the portions and
Speaker 1: the reaction to the book. Thus father has really sort
Speaker 1: of has touched people and it's mine then it should
Speaker 1: pop up. And then I just want to thank you
Speaker 1: for getting us the opportunity here and do a really
Speaker 1: good job, so we appreciate it.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for this interview. It's an incredible book,
Speaker 4: and thank you so much for this interview. You have
Speaker 4: a great evening, good night, thank you them.
Speaker 3: In twenty seventeen, when a trans woman disappears from the village,
Speaker 3: alarm bells go.
Speaker 1: Off, girls go missing, girls end up dead.
Speaker 3: So her friends decide enough is enough. This is the
Speaker 3: story of what happens when sex workers and trans people
Speaker 3: stand up to fight the system that failed them. I'm
Speaker 3: justin Laning and This is The Village Season two, available
Speaker 3: now on the CBC Listen app and everywhere you get
Speaker 3: your podcasts.