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Gacy Bundy, Dahmer The night Stalker VTK 29 00:01:25.079 --> 00:01:28.879 every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 30 00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:33.159 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 31 00:01:33.200 --> 00:01:36.640 your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 32 00:01:47.719 --> 00:01:50.599 If you're a business owner who's hiring, you probably face 33 00:01:50.680 --> 00:01:52.760 a lot of challenges when it comes to finding the 34 00:01:52.799 --> 00:01:55.760 right person for your role, like not enough applicants the 35 00:01:55.840 --> 00:01:59.000 right skills or experience, or too many resumes to soar 36 00:01:59.079 --> 00:02:01.519 through yet you need to hire as soon as possible, 37 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:03.920 or not knowing where to post your job to reach 38 00:02:03.959 --> 00:02:06.760 the right people. That's why hiring can feel like trying 39 00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:09.280 to find a needle in a haystack. Sure, you can 40 00:02:09.319 --> 00:02:11.840 post your job to some job board, then all you 41 00:02:12.159 --> 00:02:14.599 can do is hope the right person comes along, which 42 00:02:14.680 --> 00:02:17.719 is why you should try ZipRecruiter for free at ZipRecruiter 43 00:02:17.800 --> 00:02:21.319 dot com slash murder. When you post a job on ZipRecruiter, 44 00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:24.159 it gets sent to over one hundred top job sites 45 00:02:24.159 --> 00:02:28.000 with one click. Then Ziprecruiter's matching technology finds people with 46 00:02:28.039 --> 00:02:31.280 the right skills and experience for your job and actively 47 00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:34.919 invites them to apply. In fact, ZipRecruiter is so effective 48 00:02:35.159 --> 00:02:37.759 that four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter 49 00:02:37.800 --> 00:02:40.879 get a quality candidate within the first day. It's no 50 00:02:41.000 --> 00:02:44.199 wonder over two point three million businesses have come to 51 00:02:44.319 --> 00:02:48.199 ZipRecruiter for their hiring needs. So while other companies overwhelm 52 00:02:48.319 --> 00:02:51.319 you with way too many options, ZipRecruiter finds you what 53 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:54.599 you're looking for, the needle in the haystack, and right 54 00:02:54.599 --> 00:02:57.520 now you can try ZipRecruiter for free at this web 55 00:02:57.560 --> 00:03:02.479 address ZipRecruiter dot com murder. Once again, remember to go 56 00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:09.039 to this unique place ZipRecruiter dot com slash murder. Zip 57 00:03:09.080 --> 00:03:13.199 recruiter the smartest way to hire. Wealthy, beautiful and brilliant 58 00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:18.159 Shell Danishevsky had fulfillment at her fingertips. Having conquered Wall Street. 59 00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:20.360 She was eager to build a family with her much 60 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:24.159 younger husband, promising Ivy League graduate Rod Coblin, But when 61 00:03:24.199 --> 00:03:27.680 his hidden vice's surface, marital harmony gave way to a 62 00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:31.280 merciless divorce. Rod had long depended on Shell's income to 63 00:03:31.360 --> 00:03:35.120 fund his tastes for high stakes backgammon and infidelity. And 64 00:03:35.159 --> 00:03:37.879 she finally vowed to sever him from her will. In 65 00:03:37.960 --> 00:03:41.039 late December two thousand and nine, Shell made an appointment 66 00:03:41.039 --> 00:03:43.479 with her lawyer to block him from her millions. She 67 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:46.319 would never make it to that meeting. Two days later, 68 00:03:46.360 --> 00:03:48.639 on New Year's Eve, Shell was found dead in the 69 00:03:48.680 --> 00:03:51.560 bathtub of her Upper West Side apartment. Police ruled it 70 00:03:51.599 --> 00:03:55.039 in an accident, and Shell's deeply orthodox Jewish family quickly 71 00:03:55.080 --> 00:03:58.960 buried her without an autopsy on religious grounds. Rod had 72 00:03:59.000 --> 00:04:02.199 a clear path to his ex wife's fortune, but suspicions 73 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:05.360 about her death lingered. As the two families warred over 74 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:09.240 custody of Shell's children and their inheritance. Rod concocted a 75 00:04:09.319 --> 00:04:13.159 series of increasingly demented schemes, even plotting to kill his 76 00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:17.079 own parents to secure the treasure, and as investigators closed in, 77 00:04:17.319 --> 00:04:19.959 Rod committed a final desperate act to frame his own 78 00:04:20.079 --> 00:04:24.639 daughter for her mother's death. Journalists Rebecca Rosenberg and Selim 79 00:04:24.759 --> 00:04:27.879 Algar reconstruct the ten years that passed between the day's 80 00:04:27.879 --> 00:04:31.040 Shell was found dead and the day her killer faced justice. 81 00:04:31.040 --> 00:04:34.639 In this riveting account of how one man's irrepressible greed 82 00:04:34.839 --> 00:04:38.680 devolved into obsession, manipulation, and murder. The book that we're 83 00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:42.160 featuring this evening is at any cost, with my special guest, 84 00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:45.480 Salim Algar. Welcome to the program, and thank you very 85 00:04:45.560 --> 00:04:48.639 much for this interview. Salim Algar, thank you for having 86 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:51.480 me Dan, I appreciate it. I apologize that we didn't 87 00:04:51.480 --> 00:04:54.959 have time to get the proper pronunciations of a certain name. 88 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:59.079 So is there any name in that opening description synopsis 89 00:04:59.160 --> 00:04:59.720 that I missed? 90 00:04:59.839 --> 00:05:05.079 Now it's Shelley Shelley Danishevski and Rod Kopp, and those 91 00:05:05.079 --> 00:05:08.319 are the two main players in the book. 92 00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:10.839 The right Okay, thank you for that correction. I thought 93 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:13.240 that might be the case, and we didn't have time 94 00:05:13.279 --> 00:05:16.759 for me to get that straightened out. Let's start by 95 00:05:17.000 --> 00:05:21.279 how you came and co author Rebecca Rosenberg, your wife, 96 00:05:21.399 --> 00:05:24.079 to how you both came to this story. Tell us 97 00:05:24.079 --> 00:05:27.920 about your journalistic background and why this story in particular, 98 00:05:28.040 --> 00:05:30.000 and you felt the need to write this book at 99 00:05:30.040 --> 00:05:30.600 any connest. 100 00:05:30.759 --> 00:05:34.759 Well, it's a pretty straightforward origin, Dan my life. Rebecca 101 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:38.879 covers Manhattan Criminal Court for New York Post and she 102 00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:42.959 covered the trial from gabble to gabble, and I'm also 103 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:46.079 a reporter at the same newspaper. At the Post, I 104 00:05:46.199 --> 00:05:49.600 cover the New York City Department of Education, and my 105 00:05:49.639 --> 00:05:53.800 focus is on education issues. But when she was considering 106 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:57.199 this topic for a book, we sort of quickly realized, 107 00:05:57.279 --> 00:05:59.600 or she did, that it would be easier with we 108 00:05:59.680 --> 00:06:02.199 have two so it might be a bit more manageable 109 00:06:02.199 --> 00:06:05.319 with a helping hand. And so I was enlisted in 110 00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:08.240 the effort, and we had a pretty quick turnaround on 111 00:06:08.279 --> 00:06:11.040 the deadline. And so two sets of hands on the 112 00:06:11.560 --> 00:06:13.680 laptops were better than one, I suppose. So that's how 113 00:06:13.720 --> 00:06:14.639 would be end great. 114 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:17.160 Now, you take us to you as you do in 115 00:06:17.160 --> 00:06:19.959 the book, to New Year's Eve two thousand and nine, 116 00:06:20.240 --> 00:06:23.000 and a young girl named Anna Coblin, nine years old, 117 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:26.120 and her brother Miles who's three, and Shelley, their mother, 118 00:06:26.439 --> 00:06:28.439 And this is in the middle of the night. So 119 00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:30.160 as you do in the book, take us to this 120 00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:33.839 scene where young Anna gets up and wants to know 121 00:06:33.879 --> 00:06:35.680 where her mother is and goes looking. 122 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:39.680 It was early morning and the sun was not yet up, 123 00:06:39.759 --> 00:06:43.680 and but Anna heard some water. She was awakened by 124 00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:46.560 the sound of rushing water nearby. She was in bed 125 00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:50.120 with her younger brother who's still sleeping. But when she awoke, 126 00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:52.759 she noticed that she wasn't that her mother, who she 127 00:06:52.839 --> 00:06:56.199 climbed into bed with, was no longer in the bed, so, obviously, 128 00:06:56.199 --> 00:06:58.720 as little kids aren't want to do, she went to 129 00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:02.480 look for her. And her brother Miles eventually joined her 130 00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:05.439 because her sort of activity awoke him, and they went 131 00:07:05.480 --> 00:07:08.480 to the bathroom in there. It's an apartment in Manhattan 132 00:07:08.519 --> 00:07:11.800 where they lived, and she looked in peered into the 133 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:16.199 into the bathroom and saw her mom and with her 134 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:18.639 back towards her, and just thought that she was taking 135 00:07:18.680 --> 00:07:22.079 a night bath to sort of distress Shelley. Her mother 136 00:07:22.199 --> 00:07:26.560 was a hard working and accomplished woman, and Anna thought 137 00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:29.399 that she was just taking a night bath, so went 138 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:31.639 back to bed. But then when they woke up a 139 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:34.040 few hours later, now the sun is up, she went 140 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:37.959 back in to the bathroom and saw her mother in 141 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:41.920 the bathtub with red and water and clearly not moving 142 00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:44.839 in an obvious state of I guess, not distress, but 143 00:07:45.120 --> 00:07:46.720 it was obvious that something was wrong. 144 00:07:46.920 --> 00:07:49.560 Now she has a situation where her father is living 145 00:07:49.639 --> 00:07:53.519 across the hall in a studio apartment, but she has 146 00:07:53.560 --> 00:07:56.319 permission to call her father if there's anything gone wrong 147 00:07:56.480 --> 00:07:59.720 or anything happened, So she does call that number and 148 00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:02.160 call so what happens with that phone call? What does 149 00:08:02.199 --> 00:08:03.720 she tell her father and what does he do? 150 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:07.439 So her mother Shelley, and her father Rod were in 151 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:10.680 the midst of a divorced but like many couples who 152 00:08:10.680 --> 00:08:14.079 were in that situation, they sought to make it as 153 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:17.319 easy as possible on the kids, and so he took 154 00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:20.120 up residence across the hall and in an apartment in 155 00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:23.079 order to, you know, whenever there was visitation, he could 156 00:08:23.079 --> 00:08:24.800 just come over and see them. So it was at 157 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:28.040 a convenience. So obviously Anna knew that her dad was 158 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:31.360 across the way and called him. He goes roughly seven 159 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:33.879 o'clock in the morning at this point and told him 160 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:37.039 that something's wrong with mommy, and obviously, hearing that, he 161 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:39.759 darted over across the hall and came into the apartment. 162 00:08:40.039 --> 00:08:43.919 So he performed some CPR as you write, and shortly 163 00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:47.519 after calls nine one one. The operator guides him through 164 00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:51.240 more steps of CPR before he dispenses with that. What 165 00:08:51.320 --> 00:08:54.159 else does he do while he's waiting? You know, many 166 00:08:54.200 --> 00:08:57.320 people are familiar with someone having the wherewithal to not 167 00:08:57.679 --> 00:09:00.320 touch a crime scene because they've watched televisi and then 168 00:09:00.799 --> 00:09:03.519 the procedure and the things that could happen. So but 169 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:04.240 what does he do? 170 00:09:04.519 --> 00:09:09.240 He, like you recounted, he attempted to perform CPR and 171 00:09:09.279 --> 00:09:11.360 he was He called the nine to one one and 172 00:09:11.399 --> 00:09:14.120 the dispatcher tried to guide him through it. But it 173 00:09:14.200 --> 00:09:17.080 was pretty clear early on that these attempts were futile 174 00:09:17.279 --> 00:09:19.399 and that point it was a little more to do 175 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:23.360 than to await the emergency crews to arrive. And he 176 00:09:23.639 --> 00:09:25.799 put the kid in a separate bedroom to sort of 177 00:09:25.799 --> 00:09:29.360 shield them from what was taking place. And initially when 178 00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:31.879 he went into the into the bathroom, he lifted her. 179 00:09:32.039 --> 00:09:34.879 He lifted Shelley out of the water and placed her 180 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:38.279 on the bathroom floor before you know, trying to administer 181 00:09:38.360 --> 00:09:41.440 CPR and calling nine to one one. So he pretty 182 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:44.519 it was clear that she she had likely passed at 183 00:09:44.559 --> 00:09:46.919 that point, and there was little more for him to 184 00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:50.639 do than just to await the emergency crews, the FDNY 185 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:53.120 and the NYPD who were on route to the sea. 186 00:09:53.399 --> 00:09:57.399 You're right about EMS four EMS members and then people 187 00:09:57.480 --> 00:10:00.639 from the firefighters as well. So there was a person 188 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:05.440 named Casey. What did first responders two of them William 189 00:10:05.799 --> 00:10:09.279 Rick's a firefighter, and Casey a member named casey, what 190 00:10:09.399 --> 00:10:13.120 did they notice about Shelley initially right on the floor 191 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:16.320 and where was Rod when they came to the scene. 192 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:19.799 So when they came in, he was in the bathroom 193 00:10:19.840 --> 00:10:23.200 near Shelley. And you know, these are veteran, big city 194 00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:26.840 New York City first responders. You have members of FDNY 195 00:10:26.960 --> 00:10:30.919 and members of NYPD, so it's not obviously they deal 196 00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:36.679 with extreme situations every day. So they pretty quickly recognized 197 00:10:36.840 --> 00:10:41.159 that Shelley was likely dead after you know, the acceptor 198 00:10:41.240 --> 00:10:44.080 for rigor mortis and she the limbs had set at 199 00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:46.600 this point and it was clear to them what had 200 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:49.639 taken place. And then that's sort of when the police 201 00:10:49.919 --> 00:10:53.360 take over. The FDN, Y left, the firefighters who come 202 00:10:53.519 --> 00:10:58.360 to really most emergency scenes are left, and the investigations 203 00:10:58.360 --> 00:11:01.360 sort of began at that point. And the first person 204 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:04.039 who arrived there was a firefighter and so sort of 205 00:11:04.039 --> 00:11:06.559 a pointed scene. You know, he opens this door and 206 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:09.759 he looks down and sees a little girl looking at him, 207 00:11:09.799 --> 00:11:12.759 and you know, he asks her, you know, what's happening, 208 00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:16.960 and she just points down the hallway. She doesn't say anything, 209 00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:20.159 and that's when he comes upon Rod and Shelley. 210 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:24.960 You right too, that Rod directs New York Police Department 211 00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:27.679 officers to a cabinet in the bathroom above the faucet 212 00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:30.919 that has been partially ripped from its hinges, and he 213 00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:35.000 immediately is again has the wherewithal to say, I think 214 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:37.320 she may have grabbed a piece of wood from the 215 00:11:37.399 --> 00:11:40.080 cabinet and fell and hit her head. So he's offering 216 00:11:40.519 --> 00:11:44.519 what happened, and also offering and suggesting that this was 217 00:11:44.639 --> 00:11:48.320 purely an accident. So he tells these first responders that 218 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:50.720 and says, I can't believe this is happening. And he 219 00:11:50.759 --> 00:11:53.039 also tells him that his wife had taken out a 220 00:11:53.080 --> 00:11:56.240 restraining order against him, and then that he had lived 221 00:11:56.240 --> 00:11:59.919 close to be near the children. However, with this information 222 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:04.080 that the NYPD get what else do police do at 223 00:12:04.120 --> 00:12:05.919 that crime scene at that time? 224 00:12:05.960 --> 00:12:09.840 So, right, this was sort of obviously early on one 225 00:12:09.879 --> 00:12:13.960 of the major aspects of the case that they had 226 00:12:14.039 --> 00:12:17.440 sort of a rough sense of the situation in that 227 00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:19.320 they were in the middle of a divorce, there was 228 00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:22.279 a restraining order in place, that he lived across the hall, 229 00:12:22.519 --> 00:12:26.320 and obviously in those circumstances, people would assume that they 230 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:29.519 would train their sort of focus on him in case 231 00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:32.720 there was indeed any foul play or anything suspicious about 232 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:36.960 the circumstances, but he sort of preempted a lot of that, 233 00:12:37.039 --> 00:12:41.679 it seems, by offering rather quickly this explanation. There was 234 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:45.080 a cabinet in the bathroom that had been dislodged from 235 00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:48.360 the wall, and he told them that perhaps she had 236 00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:51.759 lost her balance or slipped in some manner, and doing 237 00:12:51.840 --> 00:12:55.120 so sort of grasped this fixture and ripped it off. 238 00:12:55.120 --> 00:12:58.879 The hinge fell and hit her head. But it was 239 00:12:59.000 --> 00:13:04.559 obviously a a heavy critique early on of the detectives 240 00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:07.159 and the police officers at the scene for not sort 241 00:13:07.159 --> 00:13:10.559 of doing a more thorough pro baid into the entertained 242 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:14.519 fouth play really as an option early on, and that 243 00:13:14.559 --> 00:13:16.799 would sort of play at the trial. They would play 244 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:17.799 a major role at trial. 245 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:21.480 There's another important character. There's been a nanny that's been 246 00:13:21.480 --> 00:13:24.399 with the family right since the birth of Anna, and 247 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:26.759 she's nine years old, so she's been with the family 248 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:31.639 for nine years and is the principal caregiver for this family. 249 00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:35.080 And her name is Hyacinth reed Or, she goes by 250 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:38.279 the name Rose, and she's a Jamaican woman. And she 251 00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:41.879 gets arrives at the apartment just after eight with her 252 00:13:41.919 --> 00:13:45.320 grandson to play with the children as well, her grandson JJ. 253 00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:48.440 She asked right away where the kids are and asked 254 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:52.519 where Shelley was, and the police are there as well, 255 00:13:52.840 --> 00:13:56.320 and Rod is there, and what is the response to 256 00:13:56.399 --> 00:13:58.679 her questions? And then what does she have to say? 257 00:13:59.080 --> 00:14:03.840 So high Or Rhodes was an integral part of this family, 258 00:14:03.879 --> 00:14:05.960 their day to day routine. She would take the kids 259 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:09.360 to school, and Shelley came to really rely on her 260 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:13.360 for a lot of fundamental things, especially once the relationship dissolved, 261 00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:16.360 and so she sort of knew, she knew the lay 262 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:19.039 of the land in terms of the deterioration of the 263 00:14:19.240 --> 00:14:21.960 of the family and the relationship. And so when she 264 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:24.559 comes that day, as she approaches the front door of 265 00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:27.559 the apartment with her grandson, she can sort of odd 266 00:14:27.639 --> 00:14:29.799 to her that the door's open. She can hear some 267 00:14:29.879 --> 00:14:32.639 murmuring within the apartment, and then obviously once she sees 268 00:14:32.679 --> 00:14:35.559 the police officers inside, that was a clear sign that 269 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:38.320 something was amiss. So she asked rather quickly, you know, 270 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:41.519 where's Shelley, what's going on? And initially there was no 271 00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:45.679 response until finally Rod stoked and told her that Shelley 272 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:49.240 was gone, and she was stunned. Obviously, this is someone 273 00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:51.360 that she had been with the night before, she'd been 274 00:14:51.399 --> 00:14:54.159 with the kids, you know, just the previous evening, and 275 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:56.440 she had a cup of coffee in her hand from McDonald's. 276 00:14:56.440 --> 00:14:58.759 It was a cold day, and that fell from her 277 00:14:58.759 --> 00:15:01.960 hands and it's splat across the wall, and she collapsed 278 00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:05.519 along with it and began crying. And after a while 279 00:15:05.799 --> 00:15:09.039 when she sort of took stock and gathered herself and 280 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:12.639 sort of to speak, she said, it's non an accident. 281 00:15:12.919 --> 00:15:15.879 So obviously that was suggestive early on that there were 282 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:18.440 suspicions as to what had taken place. Shelley was young 283 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:22.600 and vibrant. For her to die in such a sudden 284 00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:26.559 and abrupt manner in the bathtub was extraordinary. To put 285 00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:28.279 him mildly at that point, you talk. 286 00:15:28.519 --> 00:15:31.559 Now, we go back and give the background of Shelley 287 00:15:32.039 --> 00:15:35.840 Minna Danishevski born in July nineteen sixty two. Her dad, Joel, 288 00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:40.559 wife Jayleen, Polish immigrants living in Elizabeth, New Jersey, and 289 00:15:40.919 --> 00:15:44.279 father of Joel is a rabbi muls butcher, and he 290 00:15:44.279 --> 00:15:46.919 had a love of finance. Her sister that she's very 291 00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:49.799 close to his eve. Tell us about the family, tell 292 00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:54.159 us about briefly about the accident that scarred Shelley and 293 00:15:54.360 --> 00:15:57.919 where she is at the time that she meets Rod 294 00:15:58.039 --> 00:16:00.159 Coughlin in her life. 295 00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:05.639 So, Shelley was born to a religious Orthodox Jewish family 296 00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:09.279 and sort of the patriarch was Joel, her father. He 297 00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:12.240 sort of came up the hard way. He initially became 298 00:16:12.279 --> 00:16:14.840 a butcher. He was a Jewish butcher, a coach butcher 299 00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:17.519 on which actually required some sort of particular set of 300 00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:21.519 skills in order to in order to perform that function 301 00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:25.600 in that culture. And he also, while doing so, he 302 00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:28.000 was his father was a rabbi, and he had always 303 00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:31.200 hoped to follow in his footsteps and was a very 304 00:16:31.240 --> 00:16:34.200 religious man. But the work was difficult to find in 305 00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:37.720 the religious religious capacity. So he was sort of compelled 306 00:16:37.720 --> 00:16:40.320 to serve in this butcher role. But he sort of 307 00:16:40.360 --> 00:16:43.360 tied of that, and he would when his day was over, 308 00:16:43.600 --> 00:16:48.159 he would walk around downtown Elizabeth and there are banks there, 309 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:50.879 and in most banks, especially back then, there was a 310 00:16:50.919 --> 00:16:53.799 stock ticker. And so here's this sort of this young 311 00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:57.799 man who had just come from butchering meat consumption, and 312 00:16:57.879 --> 00:17:01.480 he sees this rush of picker numbers and he sort 313 00:17:01.480 --> 00:17:03.600 of intrigued by it, and that would sort of spark 314 00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:06.440 an interest in finance. And you know, he obviously had 315 00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:09.400 to acknowledge that this was this was related to Wall 316 00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:12.039 Street and there were people made their made their fortunes 317 00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:14.680 in this manner one way or another. So he pursued 318 00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:18.079 that and would eventually earn a degree to that end 319 00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:21.759 and quickly applied his what what a pre exist things 320 00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:24.440 of the facility with numbers in maths, and he would 321 00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:27.119 earn a job on Wall Stream and start doing very 322 00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:31.200 well there. Meanwhile, he since as his financial prospects were improving, 323 00:17:31.279 --> 00:17:35.880 he and his wife, Jayleen, had children, and Shelley was 324 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:39.640 one of his two beloved daughters, and they were a 325 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:43.319 very close knit family, very sort of traditional Orthodox Jewish family. 326 00:17:43.559 --> 00:17:47.480 He was never one for a sort of lavish luxury instead, 327 00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:49.480 you know, he had the money to do it, but 328 00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:52.279 instead he really tried to instill in his kids sort 329 00:17:52.279 --> 00:17:54.759 of an in a sense of industry and work ethic 330 00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:57.920 and piety and family sort of as the as the 331 00:17:57.960 --> 00:18:01.920 bedrock of their of their lives and their foundation. And 332 00:18:01.960 --> 00:18:04.880 as as far as we could discern, he had succeeded 333 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:07.480 in doing so. This is a very Talina family. And 334 00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:11.559 this Shelley had did have an accident which Joel would 335 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:14.119 blame himself for. When she was a little girl. They 336 00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:18.480 were having a dinner on a religious occasion at a 337 00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:22.440 friend's house and there is traditionally there's a an urn 338 00:18:22.599 --> 00:18:26.079 kept with hot water, and she tipped it over onto 339 00:18:26.119 --> 00:18:28.640 herself while the adults were in another room. And this 340 00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:31.519 it's called the samovar, and it's filled with scalding hot 341 00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:34.400 water that's normally used for teen and it splashed all 342 00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:38.640 across her torso and would end up scarring her very badly. 343 00:18:38.839 --> 00:18:42.440 And Joel, her other relatives would tell us, often blamed 344 00:18:42.519 --> 00:18:44.799 himself for this. I mean she she had to undergo 345 00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:47.119 skin grass and there was a lot of permanent scar 346 00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:50.079 so it wasn't sort of a brief episode in their life, 347 00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:52.920 something that would sort of plagued her and her sense 348 00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:55.400 of self esteem, you know well and for her into 349 00:18:55.400 --> 00:18:58.839 her teens and even sort of early sort of college years. 350 00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:02.119 And Joe well for that reason, since he did blame 351 00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:04.680 himself for not sort of protecting his little girl against 352 00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:07.640 this accident, unlike his other kids, who he was very 353 00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:11.400 demanding of in terms of their academic performance. He was 354 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:15.119 a little more lax, was Shelley, and so her performance 355 00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:17.799 in school wasn't as good. But they were reluctant to 356 00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:20.039 get on her about it, because again there was a 357 00:19:20.079 --> 00:19:23.319 sort of underlying guilt, and his main concern was that 358 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:26.720 she was comfortable and she was happy. And sometimes his 359 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:28.799 hands can tell you that could lead, you, know, that 360 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:31.759 being to some bad habits because you're a little too permissive, 361 00:19:31.880 --> 00:19:35.200 and that has a negative consequence. But Shelley was. She 362 00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:37.720 was also a little bit overweight because of this issue 363 00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:40.759 to self esteem issue and sort of sense of inadequacy. 364 00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:42.960 So in her high school years, you know, she wasn't 365 00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:45.599 quite in the popular crowd. But once she got to 366 00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:48.480 college in Manhattan, she went to Pace University. Once she 367 00:19:48.519 --> 00:19:50.880 got there, she shed a lot of these issues, and 368 00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:53.559 she lost a lot of weight, and she looked more 369 00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:57.400 sociable men. Partially, one can assume that perhaps it's because 370 00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:00.359 she was sort of no longer in the parental under 371 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:02.920 primal watch, and like anyone who's starting off in college, 372 00:20:02.920 --> 00:20:04.720 she was able to spread her wings a little bit, 373 00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:08.920 so she adjusted well. She was she accepted her this 374 00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:12.559 scarring from this burn as just sort of something she 375 00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:15.000 can deal with and then you know, make manageable. She 376 00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:18.359 lost live weight and her beauty, her dormant beauty sort 377 00:20:18.359 --> 00:20:20.720 of burst of the four and she was well on 378 00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:24.799 her way. She graduated in financed and slowly worked her 379 00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:26.880 way up with some with her father's help in that 380 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:29.880 world on Wall Street, but she did have a difficulty 381 00:20:30.039 --> 00:20:33.440 with sort of finding a suitable mate. Her sister Eve 382 00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:36.960 would eventually get married and have a child, and to 383 00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:39.680 a man they both really respected, but she in that 384 00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:43.680 department she was running into some complications and the relationships 385 00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:46.240 would come and go, and her family would It was 386 00:20:46.279 --> 00:20:48.359 fun to get a little concerned. She was getting older, 387 00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:52.079 into her later twenties and early thirties, and very still 388 00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:54.119 that the husband had not yet appeared at this point, 389 00:20:54.279 --> 00:20:57.920 and she really again because of her own family background, 390 00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:01.240 you know, children and that model was really prized and 391 00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:04.000 there was a sense of enough death graces too strong 392 00:21:04.039 --> 00:21:06.880 a word, but she knew that this was a void 393 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:09.240 in her life that she really wanted to fill, especially 394 00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:11.799 with her older siblings married and she was the only 395 00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:14.720 one at this point who wasn't and she would date frequently, 396 00:21:14.839 --> 00:21:17.759 but the mates weren't always on the highest caliber. That's 397 00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:21.160 what her family progress. And then one night she went 398 00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:23.440 to an event in the city and. 399 00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:27.680 Rod, yes, you talk about February fifteenth, nineteen ninety eight, 400 00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:30.559 Shelley calls her sister Eve and says, I've met my 401 00:21:30.759 --> 00:21:33.960 soulmate and we're going to Vegas to get married. 402 00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:34.359 Now. 403 00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:37.240 Eve knows that she hasn't had much luck and then 404 00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:40.720 hasn't had the best choices in men either. Kind of 405 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:44.200 ridiculous dates that she has witnessed, but she's She pleads 406 00:21:44.319 --> 00:21:47.880 with her to say, listen, don't do this to her parents, 407 00:21:47.960 --> 00:21:50.079 you know, think of mom and Dad will break their heart. 408 00:21:50.319 --> 00:21:53.240 So she reassures Eve that she's not going to go 409 00:21:53.319 --> 00:21:57.279 get married to him in Vegas that night, but she 410 00:21:57.359 --> 00:22:00.960 tells him about this guy six foot two, muscular, martial 411 00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:05.240 arts blue eyes, raised as a traditional Jewish person and 412 00:22:05.680 --> 00:22:09.160 engineer degree. So he presented himself as a really good 413 00:22:09.240 --> 00:22:12.960 catch and a budding tech entrepreneur. 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Now, Selim, 447 00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:10.839 we were talking about she finally meets this person that 448 00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:13.880 she believes is her soulmate as she described to her sister. 449 00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:17.880 But right away when the sisters meet this dream guy, Rod, 450 00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:20.720 what is their first impression and why? 451 00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:25.319 So Eve thought that odd? But again, the entire family 452 00:24:25.400 --> 00:24:27.400 was rooting for her to sort of finally settle down 453 00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:30.960 and have children, and she had sold his attributes with 454 00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:35.480 such enthusiasm to everyone that she was willing to sort 455 00:24:35.480 --> 00:24:37.559 of overlook it and chalk it up to maybe, you know, 456 00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:39.920 he's having a bad day or he's shy, something along 457 00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:43.599 those lines. So her initial instincts were that there was 458 00:24:43.640 --> 00:24:46.200 something a bit off, but it's something that was that 459 00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:46.920 they could get through. 460 00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:50.119 Now we have to compress this story to be able 461 00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:54.920 to explain this incredible twisting and turning story that it 462 00:24:54.920 --> 00:24:58.599 would seem from the introduction that we gave that the police, 463 00:24:58.759 --> 00:25:02.519 regardless of some of the evidence that they didn't collect 464 00:25:02.519 --> 00:25:04.680 and they didn't gather, and there's a suspicion that they 465 00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:09.599 didn't have that at some point they find out this information. 466 00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:14.039 So in this marriage, they have two children and it 467 00:25:14.119 --> 00:25:17.240 lasts over ten years. But right from that very first 468 00:25:17.319 --> 00:25:21.359 impression of the family about Rod and his desire to 469 00:25:21.400 --> 00:25:24.759 be a good husband to their sister Shelley, there are 470 00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:28.720 signs right away. She's the breadwinner and he has some 471 00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:33.119 ideas about being a budding entrepreneur. However, he doesn't work 472 00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:38.279 and she works even harder. And those bad habits about 473 00:25:38.359 --> 00:25:42.079 him believing that he could be a backgammon champion tell 474 00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:45.640 us just a little bit about his character that very 475 00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:48.920 very quickly comes into it. The sight and even the 476 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:52.319 family notices some of the things that are just playing 477 00:25:52.359 --> 00:25:53.839 wrong about Rod Coughlin. 478 00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:57.799 So on paper, he was impressive, he had all the 479 00:25:57.920 --> 00:26:01.759 right degree he was a charge, he was a good conversationalist, 480 00:26:01.880 --> 00:26:06.200 he was witty. So on that surface level, he had promised, 481 00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:09.880 and is what Shelley had always assumed, is that he 482 00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:12.160 would put these degrees to use as an IVY League 483 00:26:12.599 --> 00:26:16.559 graduate and that he would eventually make it somewhere in 484 00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:19.880 the tech field. That's where his interests were. And so 485 00:26:19.960 --> 00:26:22.279 the assumption was that at some point he would bring 486 00:26:22.279 --> 00:26:26.440 these talents to bear. But slowly, as the marriage progressed, 487 00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:30.039 she would notice that, you know, there's very little enthusiasm 488 00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:33.559 for full time work. Now she, like I said prior, 489 00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:36.279 she was now working on Wall Street in a various 490 00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:40.279 sort of lucrative positions. She worked alongside her father and 491 00:26:40.279 --> 00:26:43.759 her sibling, and so she was bringing plenty of money 492 00:26:43.799 --> 00:26:47.640 and they lived comfortably. But again the dpcheck's work only 493 00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:52.200 coming from her from her end, and he was increasingly 494 00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:56.599 focused not on gainful employment but developing his skills in 495 00:26:56.640 --> 00:27:00.839 the gaming backgen which played sort of a which was 496 00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:04.079 an undercurrent through the book. He had a real affinity 497 00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:06.960 for the for the game, and there is a there's 498 00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:09.799 a professional circuit. A lot of people don't know that 499 00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:12.880 but it's something we discovered and sort of researching the book. 500 00:27:12.920 --> 00:27:16.680 But there's actually a there's prize money to be had 501 00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:20.200 on the professional level, and so he would dedicate more 502 00:27:20.200 --> 00:27:22.559 and more of his time to pursuing that, and he 503 00:27:22.599 --> 00:27:25.519 was convinced that he would be able to produce sizeable 504 00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:28.400 income for the family once he attained the sort of 505 00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:30.920 back end and stardom. And at first, Shelley it sort 506 00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:33.680 of dismissed it as sort of a fancy that was 507 00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:37.240 a sort of thing that would eventually subside. But more 508 00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:40.240 and more the months in the years pasted, it became 509 00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:45.079 something an obsession, and he would travel constantly to these tournaments. 510 00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:51.200 Uh and the obviously wasn't the winnings would occasional and 511 00:27:51.799 --> 00:27:55.680 large and significant. So the concern began to began to 512 00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:59.599 spiral in both Shelley and her family couldn't help noticing 513 00:27:59.599 --> 00:28:03.240 from a she was the one working while he was 514 00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:07.680 the one indulging in recreation, and that's what concerns really 515 00:28:07.720 --> 00:28:10.200 started to service. 516 00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:12.799 You talk about backgammon two, He used that as a 517 00:28:12.799 --> 00:28:16.799 premise to philander with other women online, and she soon 518 00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:19.480 found out whether he let her find out or she 519 00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:23.039 found out through an email that he was basically having 520 00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:27.279 affairs or consorting with prostitutes, but he was definitely stepping 521 00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:30.559 out from her in this marriage. Along with that, the 522 00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:34.640 family noticed, and she definitely noticed that he was berating 523 00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:37.200 her about her looks. In the beginning, he was a 524 00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:40.119 real charmer, giving her flowers and nothing but compliments, but 525 00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:43.880 now there was nothing but criticism and so fast forward 526 00:28:43.920 --> 00:28:48.160 in this relationship. He really has a problem with looking 527 00:28:48.200 --> 00:28:51.079 at the obvious signs. As Eve tells her, look are 528 00:28:51.079 --> 00:28:54.480 you are you crazy taking this guy back, considering the 529 00:28:54.519 --> 00:28:56.720 things that he has done to her, that he said 530 00:28:56.759 --> 00:29:01.079 to her, that he's threatened her so over this so quickly. 531 00:29:01.160 --> 00:29:04.759 But in that ten year period, this dream marriage turned 532 00:29:04.759 --> 00:29:09.240 into a nightmare for Shelley, and she tells other people friends, 533 00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:12.519 the nanny knows some things. She tells other friends. He 534 00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:16.039 confides in people, and she makes moves toward thinking that 535 00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:19.160 she needs to protect her children, to protect her finances, 536 00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:22.240 and to change her will. Now tell us about how 537 00:29:22.279 --> 00:29:25.880 he responds to all of this and what she does 538 00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:28.640 in response to what he does to try to thwart 539 00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:29.440 her efforts. 540 00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:34.799 Shelley was reluctant to render the marriage for many reasons. 541 00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:38.480 They had the children, she really did want to establish, 542 00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:42.440 say harmonious home. But soon, you know, as the time 543 00:29:42.680 --> 00:29:45.880 kicked off, she realized that certain things weren't going to change, 544 00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:50.440 and obviously the situation became untenable for her once the 545 00:29:50.599 --> 00:29:54.039 intibelity came to light, and it was widespread and constant, 546 00:29:54.079 --> 00:29:56.039 and at one point he even suggested that they have 547 00:29:56.119 --> 00:29:58.640 an open marriage. And these were things that obviously Shelley 548 00:29:58.720 --> 00:30:02.599 had no interest in, did nothing other than drive her away, 549 00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:05.680 and eventually she grew hired of a lot of this 550 00:30:07.319 --> 00:30:10.720 reverbal attacks, and Rob would yell at her for no 551 00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:14.200 on very limited grounds in public in front of her family, 552 00:30:14.359 --> 00:30:19.559 and her defenses warway, and she finally decided she'd had 553 00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:22.480 enough and that she Her concern at this point was 554 00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:25.559 sort of expelling him, severing him from the will. She 555 00:30:25.599 --> 00:30:29.200 had a pretticizable life insurance policies and other assets, and 556 00:30:29.880 --> 00:30:33.200 her concern was that he would from a commandeer these 557 00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:36.319 funds at some point. So her goal was to meet 558 00:30:36.319 --> 00:30:39.160 with a lawyer and to write him out of her will, 559 00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:41.839 and then that would have actually free her from him 560 00:30:41.880 --> 00:30:44.000 completely and allow her to move on with her life. 561 00:30:44.079 --> 00:30:46.119 But obviously it didn't get that far right. 562 00:30:46.359 --> 00:30:48.720 Now this is a New Year's even. Now you take 563 00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:52.519 this back to the crime scene, and also why there 564 00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:57.480 is a reasons for this investigation to eventually because the 565 00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:01.880 family again pushes and there was a interesting medical examiner 566 00:31:01.960 --> 00:31:06.000 named Hayes that goes against his superior name hersh and 567 00:31:06.119 --> 00:31:08.680 this won't let this case go because what we hadn't 568 00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:12.200 mentioned is that this mean and initially came to that 569 00:31:12.279 --> 00:31:14.759 crime scene. What he was astonished at was there was 570 00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:17.400 red and some of them an inch and a half 571 00:31:17.440 --> 00:31:21.599 in length, scratches on the lower half of Shelley's face, 572 00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:24.720 as well as contusion on her lip and bruises on 573 00:31:24.759 --> 00:31:28.039 her elbow and arm in various places. And he stuck 574 00:31:28.119 --> 00:31:32.440 with this and was instrumental in helping this case because 575 00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:36.640 again another complication of this is the Orthodox Jewish religion 576 00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:40.720 and also the idea that unless there's some incredible reason 577 00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:44.119 for desecration, as they call it, of this body, that 578 00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:48.400 they would not authorize an autopsy. So combined with I 579 00:31:48.440 --> 00:31:52.920 guess the persuasiveness of Rod Coblin and also what seemingly 580 00:31:53.319 --> 00:31:57.880 ineptitude by the New York Police Department that this idea 581 00:31:57.960 --> 00:32:00.519 that he had something to do with this This M. E. 582 00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:05.680 Hayes was instrumental in keeping that investigation and that information alive. 583 00:32:05.799 --> 00:32:09.960 Wasn't me yes. So initially, after Shelley passed, they were 584 00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:12.319 faced with a decision. Her family was faced with a 585 00:32:12.440 --> 00:32:15.599 very serious decision and a very reaching decision. They obviously 586 00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:17.880 had their suspicions about what took place that night. They 587 00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:21.240 knew the details of her personal life or relationship with Rod, 588 00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:25.000 so they had their sufficience, but that competed against their 589 00:32:25.079 --> 00:32:29.680 religious beliefs, which in the Orthodox tourist faith, autopsies are 590 00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:33.759 frowned upon because it's seen like you, like you had said, 591 00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:37.640 it's seen as a disturbance of the body prior to burial, 592 00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:40.680 and in order for the soul to transit to the 593 00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:44.440 afterlife in an orderly way, then you need the undisturbed 594 00:32:44.519 --> 00:32:47.440 course in order to do so. An autopsy obviously is 595 00:32:47.480 --> 00:32:51.400 very invasive, and that procedure is in their mind, complicates that. 596 00:32:51.559 --> 00:32:54.000 So they had to deal with this issue, and Joel, 597 00:32:54.240 --> 00:32:58.079 Shelley's father, she sought out sort of higher religious authorities 598 00:32:58.599 --> 00:33:02.000 in another rabbi to counsel him on what to do. 599 00:33:02.359 --> 00:33:05.640 At first, you know, they since they had this it's 600 00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:09.680 difficult decision to make. The rabbi initially agreed to do 601 00:33:09.759 --> 00:33:14.079 it because Joel explained the circumstances of Shelley's death and 602 00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:16.640 this this this other rabbi said, you know what, if 603 00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:18.799 there's any situation that would call for it, that this 604 00:33:18.839 --> 00:33:20.920 would be it. But there was yet another wrinkle in 605 00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:24.400 this case that would prevent that autosy from taking place. 606 00:33:24.559 --> 00:33:27.160 So before Hayes, who had been seeking to do it 607 00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:29.680 because he had a suspicion, paid the New York City 608 00:33:29.799 --> 00:33:33.680 Medical Examiner before he could perform the procedure. There is 609 00:33:33.720 --> 00:33:38.279 a group in a Jewish Orthodox Jewish group called Masas 610 00:33:38.359 --> 00:33:42.079 Camp and their role is to assist Orthodox Jewish families 611 00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:45.440 in dealing with the aftermath of a death. So they 612 00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:49.200 assist with the grieving. So they helped us the grieving process. 613 00:33:49.319 --> 00:33:52.519 They really do whatever family needs and they they're seen 614 00:33:52.519 --> 00:33:54.839 a sort of a vital service. But they are especially 615 00:33:54.839 --> 00:33:58.279 opposed to autoxity's on religious grounds for the reasons that 616 00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:01.480 I mentioned previously. And they had representatives who sort of 617 00:34:01.480 --> 00:34:03.920 held himself out as a rabbi member of the Sauce 618 00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:06.759 cam who was told about the death of Shelley and 619 00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:10.079 he knew that this was a member of the Orthodosteish community, 620 00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:12.880 and he went to the scene of the crime and 621 00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:16.000 he was admitted to it. And his role there as 622 00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:18.800 a representative of this group is to collect any sort 623 00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:21.760 of body fluids, anything that would that should be buried 624 00:34:21.800 --> 00:34:24.480 along with Shelley. So he goes to the scene. Then 625 00:34:24.599 --> 00:34:27.519 that's a whole other complicating factor why he was given 626 00:34:27.559 --> 00:34:29.519 such free way to go in. But he managed to 627 00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:32.199 convince them that he was a religious representative and he 628 00:34:32.280 --> 00:34:35.159 was admitted. So once he had his rounds in the 629 00:34:35.239 --> 00:34:37.679 in the apartment of the crime scene, he called the 630 00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:40.199 family and once Joel told him that they would playing 631 00:34:40.199 --> 00:34:44.480 on an autopsy, he vigorously, vigorously opposed it and told him, no, no, 632 00:34:44.599 --> 00:34:47.039 this was an accident. I talked to some of the 633 00:34:47.079 --> 00:34:49.159 detectives in the case and they assured me there's no 634 00:34:49.239 --> 00:34:51.400 foul play here. Don't do it, you know, don't do it. 635 00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:54.599 So Joel, and you can imagine how difficult decision this 636 00:34:54.800 --> 00:34:57.599 was for him, sitting there at his dining room table, 637 00:34:58.559 --> 00:35:01.960 struggling with this. You know, on the one hand, his 638 00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:05.760 daughter is dead and he has his suspicions about her husband, 639 00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:08.400 and on the other hand, he has these religious pressures 640 00:35:08.440 --> 00:35:10.559 on the other side, So it was really a very 641 00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:13.400 difficult and challenging positions for him to be in, and 642 00:35:13.480 --> 00:35:16.840 he relented and he called it off. Hayes, the medical 643 00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:20.039 examiner was literally from what he said, a trial was 644 00:35:20.079 --> 00:35:23.000 about to make the initial decisions that you know, would 645 00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:25.280 have maybe brought them closer to the truth. And he 646 00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:27.599 got a call and they said, no, put put it down, 647 00:35:27.679 --> 00:35:29.719 we eject, and he was bound to that. 648 00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:34.320 Now we have to talk about Deborah OLiS because after 649 00:35:34.400 --> 00:35:39.440 this fatality, after Shelly's death, he goes on dating, meeting 650 00:35:39.840 --> 00:35:44.280 many people online and goes through journey's for a period 651 00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:47.239 of time anyway, but he meets somebody named Deborah OLiS, 652 00:35:47.480 --> 00:35:51.760 and he's foolish enough to confide in her along the way, 653 00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:55.880 and when it comes time for him to be indicted, 654 00:35:56.079 --> 00:35:58.639 she has some concerns about some of the things he 655 00:35:58.679 --> 00:36:01.639 has already said to her, so she starts recording some 656 00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:05.559 of these conversations and eventually, eventually she goes to a 657 00:36:05.639 --> 00:36:09.440 detective that had initially spoken to her, and she has 658 00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:13.639 a pang of conscience and contacts this detective Mooney to 659 00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:17.079 say some things. We have to sort of jump ahead 660 00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:21.639 to the investigation that finally looks at the same evidence 661 00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:24.840 and then calls for an exhamation of the body. Tell 662 00:36:24.920 --> 00:36:25.679 us about that. 663 00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:30.199 All throughout this process. So it's a long period of 664 00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:32.719 time here that we're talking about that obviously we're having 665 00:36:32.719 --> 00:36:35.840 to condense. But all throughout this period, the family has 666 00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:40.760 their suspicience, and especially Peve and her husband Mark, they 667 00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:43.920 were growing increasingly frustrated with what was happening. They had 668 00:36:43.960 --> 00:36:48.360 suspicions about rog involvement, and they are unrelenting in their 669 00:36:48.400 --> 00:36:52.840 pressure on the Manhattan District Attorney's Office and anyone they 670 00:36:52.840 --> 00:36:56.400 can talk to me NYPD to keep pressing and keep 671 00:36:56.440 --> 00:37:01.519 pressing on the case. And finally there these efforts came 672 00:37:01.559 --> 00:37:04.480 to a head and again what was still a very 673 00:37:04.519 --> 00:37:08.320 difficult decision for the family. They decided that an eglamation 674 00:37:08.480 --> 00:37:11.920 was unavoidable at this point and that exlamation would allow 675 00:37:12.039 --> 00:37:16.039 for an autopsy. And more and more evidence leaked out 676 00:37:16.079 --> 00:37:20.000 as to sort of Rocks potential involvement in Lly's killing. 677 00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:23.039 It became too much for THEMPT to ignore, and the 678 00:37:23.159 --> 00:37:27.960 examation was the agreed. Payse, who was sort of was 679 00:37:28.280 --> 00:37:32.119 struttled in his previous attempt to conduct the autopsy was 680 00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:33.360 now able to do. 681 00:37:33.360 --> 00:37:37.159 So when he did that initial examination, he still could 682 00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:39.920 see it was two months later, but she was fairly 683 00:37:40.880 --> 00:37:43.840 it wasn't so decomposed because it had been winter. He 684 00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:47.400 could still see those scratches on her face. But a 685 00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:51.000 very very interesting thing happened. And as a break in 686 00:37:51.079 --> 00:37:54.800 the case, what did he find in his more thorough 687 00:37:54.840 --> 00:37:56.920 examination via the autopsy. 688 00:37:57.280 --> 00:37:59.920 So the discovery that a sense he turned the case 689 00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:04.400 during the autopsy. During Hayes's autopsy was a broken highly 690 00:38:04.440 --> 00:38:06.880 the bone in the net, which is a very difficult 691 00:38:07.079 --> 00:38:10.199 bone to break instead of the random manner, and it's 692 00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:14.719 often suggestive of something else he's made. This made this discovery. 693 00:38:14.840 --> 00:38:16.880 There are some other signs too now that he was 694 00:38:16.920 --> 00:38:21.639 really able to conduct a comprehensive, you know, investigation, conferhensive autopsy. 695 00:38:21.719 --> 00:38:24.760 They were marks in her eyes middle sort of that 696 00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:27.760 it's called the tech gid and they those are also 697 00:38:28.079 --> 00:38:31.960 suggestive indicative of it indicates the squeezing of the neck 698 00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:35.079 that pops vessels in the eyes. And these are very 699 00:38:35.079 --> 00:38:38.199 difficult theater, they're they're very small. So these are the 700 00:38:38.199 --> 00:38:41.719 These are two elements that Hayes found in his autopsy 701 00:38:41.880 --> 00:38:45.199 and at that point, the manner of death was changed 702 00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:47.920 on the death certificate, and and you know, in place 703 00:38:47.960 --> 00:38:53.840 of whatever benign ward was there previously was replaced with homicide. Uh. 704 00:38:53.880 --> 00:38:57.320 And that is what really set things accelerated the entire 705 00:38:57.559 --> 00:38:58.960 the entire story at that point. 706 00:38:59.320 --> 00:39:03.440 Now, once they had that, the same investigator is very interesting, 707 00:39:03.480 --> 00:39:09.599 a guy named a Roode Armatil maybe saying Rodermil. Yeah, 708 00:39:09.639 --> 00:39:14.400 this guy was instrumental in ignoring evidence at that crime 709 00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:17.920 scene and was adamant that this was an accident to 710 00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:21.239 certain people. And this guy has to go back and 711 00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:23.159 they have to look at and have to do a 712 00:39:23.159 --> 00:39:26.480 search warrant again at the previous at Shelley's apartment. But 713 00:39:26.559 --> 00:39:28.960 they also and you can tell us what they find 714 00:39:28.960 --> 00:39:32.880 at the apartment, but also they did gather devices from 715 00:39:33.719 --> 00:39:37.280 from Deborah OLiS and also the recordings that he had 716 00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:40.320 made and any kind of messages between them. So the 717 00:39:40.760 --> 00:39:43.920 gathering of all kinds of cell phone information takes them 718 00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:47.599 a year and a half to process and analyze all this. Meanwhile, 719 00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:51.679 Rod sits in jail on bail eventually or without bail, 720 00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:55.239 pardon me, eventually, So tell us what else they find 721 00:39:55.320 --> 00:39:59.559 at this interestingly, at the crime scene especially regarding I 722 00:39:59.599 --> 00:40:03.320 think an that's super important I thought was the issue 723 00:40:03.360 --> 00:40:06.599 of the door and him having any access door of 724 00:40:06.679 --> 00:40:09.440 that apartment that he was not supposed to be having 725 00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:10.280 any access to. 726 00:40:10.719 --> 00:40:14.639 Yeah, there was one scene that Mark and Eve recalled 727 00:40:14.719 --> 00:40:18.000 soon after and when Rod was still free. They had 728 00:40:18.039 --> 00:40:21.440 gone the two ples home to the apartment and we're 729 00:40:21.480 --> 00:40:24.119 having trouble opening the lock. This is after the passing. 730 00:40:24.159 --> 00:40:27.960 Obviously they were having trouble opening the lock, and he 731 00:40:28.159 --> 00:40:30.960 came to He appeared because he was he was across 732 00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:34.719 the hall. He came and really quickly opened it, was 733 00:40:34.760 --> 00:40:37.800 able to open it. So they obviously when they were 734 00:40:38.239 --> 00:40:40.920 in retrospect, they were surprised by this because how would 735 00:40:40.920 --> 00:40:44.440 he have such familiarity and ability to negotiate this this 736 00:40:44.519 --> 00:40:47.679 troublesome luck so that obviously in their mind and the 737 00:40:47.719 --> 00:40:50.679 system that they told us later was some had hidened 738 00:40:50.719 --> 00:40:55.320 their suspicions. And you mentioned the detective Rotormail. So because 739 00:40:55.440 --> 00:40:58.440 the homicide determination was sort of belated because of the 740 00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:01.320 delayed autos and so forth, he had to sort of 741 00:41:01.360 --> 00:41:05.079 go and cover ground that really probably should have been 742 00:41:05.079 --> 00:41:08.679 covered initially. So this is really sort of basic steps 743 00:41:08.920 --> 00:41:13.480 from getting surveillance cameras from the building to talking to 744 00:41:13.559 --> 00:41:15.519 people in the building. I mean, I think things that 745 00:41:15.559 --> 00:41:17.280 you would have thought would have been done in the 746 00:41:17.320 --> 00:41:19.639 first sort of forty eight hours after this happened, but 747 00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:21.960 they had to go back in essence because of this 748 00:41:22.360 --> 00:41:25.360 lengthy delay and go what they should have done previously. 749 00:41:25.400 --> 00:41:29.199 Now this would hamper the prosecution's case in court, because 750 00:41:29.559 --> 00:41:35.119 you know, a mishandled police investigation compromises the case pretty severely, 751 00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:38.639 and so that was also an issue. But on the 752 00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:41.840 other hand, the prosecution benefited, as you said, from this 753 00:41:41.960 --> 00:41:45.599 trobe that they were provided by by Debra and came 754 00:41:46.039 --> 00:41:49.440 to trust her and would contride in her many many 755 00:41:49.480 --> 00:41:52.880 different things, and a lot of them would ultimately become 756 00:41:53.400 --> 00:41:57.559 damaging and probably pivotal at trial. And she turned over 757 00:41:57.960 --> 00:42:01.639 devices to NYPDS. She would said later. She said later 758 00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:04.559 that she she had her suspicions about Rod and she 759 00:42:04.840 --> 00:42:08.039 was angry also about some of the mistreatment that she 760 00:42:08.159 --> 00:42:11.719 suffered at his hands. So the prosecutions that have had 761 00:42:11.880 --> 00:42:14.400 some benefits when this finally hit the courtroom, and they 762 00:42:14.440 --> 00:42:16.960 also had some some disadvantages. 763 00:42:17.320 --> 00:42:20.400 It was interesting to you outline everything that goes on, 764 00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:26.119 and interestingly, the evidence that was immaterial and deemed prejudicial 765 00:42:26.280 --> 00:42:28.920 for the jury. And that's some things like and we 766 00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:32.639 had talked about it in the introduction about his daughter 767 00:42:32.920 --> 00:42:36.320 and his plans, but this was discussed with Deborah OLiS 768 00:42:36.320 --> 00:42:39.440 and about plans for Anna to accuse her g own 769 00:42:39.519 --> 00:42:42.280 grandfather of raping her. And as we didn't mention in 770 00:42:42.320 --> 00:42:45.559 this at the very beginning of the book, Rod is 771 00:42:45.639 --> 00:42:49.840 successful with the same kind of baseless allegation to help 772 00:42:49.880 --> 00:42:53.000 his father out many many years before. So it's very 773 00:42:53.000 --> 00:42:56.760 interesting this pattern is repeated and a couple times here 774 00:42:56.840 --> 00:43:01.519 in his quest to try to made prosecution in this. 775 00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:07.360 But he definitely talks to Anna also about unbelievably confessing 776 00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:10.400 to the murder of her own mother because she won't 777 00:43:10.400 --> 00:43:13.559 do much time. And so these kinds of things obviously 778 00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:15.920 are so prejudicial to a jury that they would be 779 00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:19.199 convicted just hearing these things. But all kinds of other 780 00:43:19.559 --> 00:43:23.440 damaging and incriminating evidence was allowed at this trial, wasn't it. 781 00:43:24.480 --> 00:43:28.440 So in the end it was a largely circumstantial case, 782 00:43:28.880 --> 00:43:32.400 and the prosecution knew that there was no smoking gun. 783 00:43:32.440 --> 00:43:35.880 There was the physical evidence who was very limited. So 784 00:43:36.039 --> 00:43:39.000 the prosecution was, you know, they had an ill decline, 785 00:43:39.159 --> 00:43:41.760 and in order to get them up that hill, they 786 00:43:41.880 --> 00:43:46.760 relied largely on this sort of secondary or unrelated material 787 00:43:46.840 --> 00:43:49.920 related to Rod's character and these various schemes that he 788 00:43:50.039 --> 00:43:53.800 asked in relations to his parents, to his daughter, and 789 00:43:53.840 --> 00:43:57.920 as you stated, these theither aspects of someone's character that 790 00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:01.639 would not help them in front of jury. And the 791 00:44:01.760 --> 00:44:04.440 defense knew this and the prosecution knew this. So the 792 00:44:04.519 --> 00:44:07.760 case would eventually turn on what was admitted and what wasn't. 793 00:44:07.880 --> 00:44:12.159 And the prosecutor, Matthew bogdanos or that emant about getting 794 00:44:12.159 --> 00:44:13.880 in as much as he could in order to show 795 00:44:13.920 --> 00:44:16.360 the jury here was a man who had the capacity 796 00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:20.480 and the moral deficiencies to commit what he is accused of, 797 00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:23.000 and because he had to, because there's really not much 798 00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:25.800 else that he could lean on the secure conviction. And 799 00:44:26.079 --> 00:44:29.119 on the other end, the defense attorney, Robert Gottlieb would 800 00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:31.800 argue that, you know, the you can't find someone guilty 801 00:44:31.800 --> 00:44:34.760 of murder because they are of poor character. And he 802 00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:37.719 leaned on this as best he could in making his arguments, 803 00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:40.320 but enough made it in we are he was sort 804 00:44:40.360 --> 00:44:43.280 of look at the final result that would convince the 805 00:44:43.360 --> 00:44:46.119 jury that he did it. What was his sentence, his 806 00:44:46.400 --> 00:44:50.400 sentence second degree murdered. Also, yeah, he was convicted of 807 00:44:50.559 --> 00:44:52.719 murder and he got the twenty five years to life. 808 00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:54.440 He got what you get in New York for a 809 00:44:54.559 --> 00:44:58.599 crime of this magnitude. And that's where he. 810 00:44:58.599 --> 00:45:01.199 Is now, his heart wrench being near the end of 811 00:45:01.199 --> 00:45:04.440 this book, because we forget, well I don't know if 812 00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:06.960 we forget, because we were reminded in your in your 813 00:45:07.079 --> 00:45:11.119 very very sensitive book, that Anna is one heck of 814 00:45:11.119 --> 00:45:15.599 a victim here obviously, and there's victim impact statements made 815 00:45:15.639 --> 00:45:20.000 by the Danishevski's about their loss of their daughter and 816 00:45:20.159 --> 00:45:25.039 sister friend. And but Anna makes her own heartfelt statement 817 00:45:25.239 --> 00:45:26.159 at court, doesn't she. 818 00:45:26.719 --> 00:45:31.440 Yes, that was a pretty unforgettable moment during this trial. Now, 819 00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:35.039 you know, Anna was close to her father, and by 820 00:45:35.519 --> 00:45:37.840 many accounts, he's a good dad, and he was good 821 00:45:38.039 --> 00:45:40.079 not only to her but to her brother Miles, and 822 00:45:40.199 --> 00:45:42.960 was very involved with her life and was building and 823 00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:44.679 then helped them with their homework and did all the 824 00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:48.559 things that you know and many parents will. But the 825 00:45:48.639 --> 00:45:52.599 question asked her position on the on his guilt, because 826 00:45:52.599 --> 00:45:55.159 she never appeared at trial, she was never in the gallery, 827 00:45:55.320 --> 00:45:57.920 and she was doing too sort of unsteady a witness, 828 00:45:57.960 --> 00:46:00.000 I think for either side to call her a stand 829 00:46:00.440 --> 00:46:02.679 So there was a question mark sort of hovering over 830 00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:05.480 the trial as to sort of Anna's position. She was 831 00:46:05.559 --> 00:46:09.719 never there, and finally it was revealed to court that 832 00:46:09.800 --> 00:46:12.960 she was going to have a statement read in court. 833 00:46:13.119 --> 00:46:16.960 Statement was read by Rod's mother, so her grandmother. They 834 00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:20.119 also Rodg's parents also play pretty integrable in all this. 835 00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:22.920 But we only have an hour, so it's probably more 836 00:46:22.960 --> 00:46:25.800 than we can we can fit in. But yes, Anna 837 00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:30.559 spoke through a statement read by her by her grandmother. 838 00:46:30.760 --> 00:46:33.760 She completely guided with her father and said that she 839 00:46:33.880 --> 00:46:37.079 did not believe that he committed to back and was 840 00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:40.559 sponsorly defended him. And it was a pretty breathtaking moment 841 00:46:40.639 --> 00:46:43.519 during the trial. And it's one of the portions and 842 00:46:44.159 --> 00:46:46.440 the reaction to the book. Thus father has really sort 843 00:46:46.440 --> 00:46:50.719 of has touched people and it's mine then it should 844 00:46:50.719 --> 00:46:52.440 pop up. And then I just want to thank you 845 00:46:52.639 --> 00:46:55.519 for getting us the opportunity here and do a really 846 00:46:55.519 --> 00:46:57.280 good job, so we appreciate it. 847 00:46:57.480 --> 00:47:01.320 Thank you so much for this interview. It's an incredible book, 848 00:47:01.639 --> 00:47:03.440 and thank you so much for this interview. You have 849 00:47:03.480 --> 00:47:06.159 a great evening, good night, thank you them. 850 00:47:06.199 --> 00:47:09.519 In twenty seventeen, when a trans woman disappears from the village, 851 00:47:09.800 --> 00:47:10.800 alarm bells go. 852 00:47:10.840 --> 00:47:13.719 Off, girls go missing, girls end up dead. 853 00:47:14.079 --> 00:47:20.119 So her friends decide enough is enough. This is the 854 00:47:20.199 --> 00:47:23.280 story of what happens when sex workers and trans people 855 00:47:23.400 --> 00:47:26.960 stand up to fight the system that failed them. I'm 856 00:47:27.159 --> 00:47:30.639 justin Laning and This is The Village Season two, available 857 00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:33.519 now on the CBC Listen app and everywhere you get 858 00:47:33.519 --> 00:47:34.360 your podcasts.