Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapist podcast. My name is Gaming Person.
Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
Speaker 1: those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you
Speaker 1: to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this
Speaker 1: show A five, four, three, two and five our folks,
Speaker 1: welcome back to the podcast. Super excited to have as
Speaker 1: my guest today, Sarah Rickstein. Sarah, welcome, Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: I'm excited to speak with you.
Speaker 1: Awesome. Sarah is a trauma therapist based in California who
Speaker 1: integrates Semitic experiencing EMDR and ifs. She works with people pleasers,
Speaker 1: those healing from emotionally immature caregivers, and individuals navigating breakups
Speaker 1: and additional relational traumas. Her approach is rooted in helping
Speaker 1: clients reconnect with their bodies and build self trust. Her
Speaker 1: background includes equined assistant therapy, working treatment in school settings,
Speaker 1: and serving as adjunct faculty at Pepperdine University teaching clinical
Speaker 1: graduate students. She is an LMFT. All right, Sarah, obviously,
Speaker 1: just a little bit about you before we get going
Speaker 1: share with the listeners. We're from originally, where you are currently.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm from LA. I'm LA native, and I live
Speaker 2: in LA still Santa Monica. I lived in other parts,
Speaker 2: but I ended up coming back because of family, So
Speaker 2: Santa Monica, California.
Speaker 1: I lived in LA with my sister for a while.
Speaker 1: Loved it, loved it when it went in, not really
Speaker 1: knowing about it but hearing all of the kind of
Speaker 1: typical there stereotypical things about it. But it's so variegated,
Speaker 1: Like you can go in and the canyons are amazing,
Speaker 1: and I think a lot of people don't appreciate that.
Speaker 1: Maybe people who don't aren't aware of, you know, the
Speaker 1: more nuanced, Yeah, aspects of it. It's beautiful.
Speaker 2: I agree. Yeah, that's what I also love about is
Speaker 2: like there's so many different sectors and different like landscapes
Speaker 2: that you can go to. So yeah, the weather's obviously
Speaker 2: a plus as well.
Speaker 1: Crazy All right, let's go, How the heck did you
Speaker 1: get into this field? Why? What pulled you into it?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So it's funny because initially I was like, I'm
Speaker 2: gonna do something with animals, So I started on that
Speaker 2: track of like learning more about animals. I've always been
Speaker 2: a super animal person. And then around high school, I
Speaker 2: had my first experience with therapy and found that to
Speaker 2: be tremendously helpful to get perspective outside of my world
Speaker 2: and what I was exposed to. As well as around
Speaker 2: that same time, I took my first like college course
Speaker 2: in psychology and was like really interested in it. It
Speaker 2: felt like it was very connected to the way I think,
Speaker 2: and so with that, I was like, how can I
Speaker 2: do the two of animals and therapy? So for my
Speaker 2: undergraduate I went to Universitydlands a program called Johnston where
Speaker 2: I could create my own major. So I studied specifically
Speaker 2: animal assisted therapy and made a like a my own
Speaker 2: course to do equine assisted therapy with more like experiential practice.
Speaker 2: So I have gone through you know, school, and then
Speaker 2: my associateship was doing specifically equine therapy. Now I'm doing
Speaker 2: more like in the office, but.
Speaker 1: With horses.
Speaker 2: Not with horses yet, not not yet, but I want
Speaker 2: to return to that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what what was it about equine therapy?
Speaker 2: H Yeah? For you, Well, so I grew up around horses.
Speaker 2: I started riding when I was five, so I already
Speaker 2: had like a love for them. But they're such tremendous
Speaker 2: animals to use for therapy. They're prey animals, so they're
Speaker 2: super tuned to their environment for survival reasons. So with that,
Speaker 2: as a clinician, as someone who can read the horse's behavior,
Speaker 2: like I can really attune and see what's happening to
Speaker 2: the client, where like you know, maybe they're not presenting congruently,
Speaker 2: but the horse, like their behavior is saying that something's
Speaker 2: kind of off. So it's like fascinating work. They're like
Speaker 2: well like animal biofeedback mechanisms, and also the relational part
Speaker 2: I find like fascinating for people to project with reparative
Speaker 2: experiences and like the embodied practice somatically as well as
Speaker 2: just like being outside in nature can be so healing.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I love I love being around horses and
Speaker 2: find it's like super helpful for for therapy.
Speaker 1: You had mentioned that you had a therapy experience when
Speaker 1: you were younger. What initially brought you into therapy if.
Speaker 2: I can ask, Yeah, of course what initially brought me so,
Speaker 2: I like was experiencing some somatic symptoms of sweating a lot,
Speaker 2: which like in high school, is not ideal. And also
Speaker 2: just like in retrospect, I've always been someone who's experienced anxiety,
Speaker 2: but just maybe when I was little, like the symptoms
Speaker 2: we didn't know what that would be, so like I'd
Speaker 2: always have stomach aches. So like I started for generalized anxiety,
Speaker 2: I had some social anxiety and then as well as
Speaker 2: had some sweating and that that experience with the therapist
Speaker 2: was you know, I'm still actually connected to her today,
Speaker 2: which is super special, and she it was helpful from
Speaker 2: her to like learn a little bit more in terms
Speaker 2: of outside of my world, of like getting a better
Speaker 2: understanding of my family system, getting a little more perspective,
Speaker 2: like at that time, academics was a big stresser for me,
Speaker 2: and so like kind of taking a step back, and
Speaker 2: also a big part two is like getting the psycho
Speaker 2: education and learning like, oh, this is what it is.
Speaker 2: The diagnosis really helped me as well as she gave
Speaker 2: me some tools. And also from her like having a
Speaker 2: very very reparative relationship, Like my mom used to say,
Speaker 2: like she would hear us laughing in the office, She's like,
Speaker 2: what's going on in there? But just having someone who
Speaker 2: was such a supportive, like guiding person who really saw
Speaker 2: the best in you was like, you know, so meaningful.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I love the way you put that, and
Speaker 1: it's so such a simple, seemingly simple thing, you know,
Speaker 1: but when we experience that, we're like, wow, this is amazing.
Speaker 1: All Right, So let's talk a little bit more about
Speaker 1: how things progressed for you as your therapy education unfolded.
Speaker 1: What did that look like?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I went to Pepperdine for graduate school, and
Speaker 2: prior to that, I, before I went back to school,
Speaker 2: I wanted to do traveling. I didn't know if I
Speaker 2: was gonna stay in LA And then worked at a
Speaker 2: treatment center for a couple of years, which was like
Speaker 2: very helpful in terms of getting some education and crises skills.
Speaker 2: I honestly think that was probably one of the hardest
Speaker 2: jobs I experienced, working with teens and residential. And then
Speaker 2: after my well, during my traineeship, I worked at a
Speaker 2: school setting, and then after that was doing equine therapy
Speaker 2: for a couple of years, and you know, really enjoyed
Speaker 2: the experiential somatic piece and in my own therapy, like,
Speaker 2: you know, I had a different therapist over time, but
Speaker 2: I felt like there was a mismatch in terms of
Speaker 2: like how I was feeling in the session, like you know,
Speaker 2: being quote unquote high functioning, like I present that I'm
Speaker 2: feeling fine and could talk about different things, but in
Speaker 2: my body I felt quite activated.
Speaker 1: And so with that activated in what in what sense
Speaker 1: for my anxiety.
Speaker 2: Or yeah, anxiety, Yeah, so not really like in my body,
Speaker 2: not really present. So I just kind of started to
Speaker 2: notice that within my own my own experience with therapy
Speaker 2: and with the horsework too. Then I got really interested
Speaker 2: in I have a background in dance as well, so
Speaker 2: like wanted to explore a little bit more about the
Speaker 2: sematics and how that could help within the therapy space.
Speaker 2: So I did go to the Embody Lab and got
Speaker 2: like an integrative sematic therapy training which was a nice
Speaker 2: little sampler of like the different types, and then ended
Speaker 2: up wanting to commit and study a bit more with
Speaker 2: sematic experiencing.
Speaker 1: So that's really interesting that when you had that experience
Speaker 1: where you were able to kind of sense within yourself,
Speaker 1: you had that self awareness about that mismatch I think
Speaker 1: with your how you were presenting and how you actually felt.
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of people don't have that somatic awareness.
Speaker 1: I certainly didn't, and I don't even know if I
Speaker 1: do now. Yeah, but how did how did did that
Speaker 1: just come naturally for you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good question. I think through my own
Speaker 2: like embodied practices with dance and like equine horses that helped.
Speaker 2: But I think also like we can be very attuned
Speaker 2: to maybe quote unquote like negative experiences that are body
Speaker 2: so activation, like my heart racing and things like that.
Speaker 2: So I think there was like a very noteworthy experience
Speaker 2: that I was having having in my body that like
Speaker 2: connected me to or especially when I used to like
Speaker 2: hyper sweat, Like there was definitely signs in my body
Speaker 2: that I was like attuning to. So yeah, all right.
Speaker 1: So how do things unfold further such that you start
Speaker 1: working with people, you start working with clients, and more
Speaker 1: specifically you're really focused and interested focused on and interested
Speaker 1: in somatics. What does that look like?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So due to those experiences, like I really wanted
Speaker 2: to help people, like I'm really passionate about helping people
Speaker 2: connect more to their body. I think in our society
Speaker 2: we're so cerebral and there's so much information we can
Speaker 2: get in our body, and I think without that we're
Speaker 2: missing a lot. So doing the somatic piece with like
Speaker 2: anxiety or trauma, I find can provide a lot more
Speaker 2: depth and a lot more resourcing too, And I really
Speaker 2: enjoy helping someone to have more positive experiences with being
Speaker 2: connected to their body and slowing down and being more attuned.
Speaker 1: You mentioned, I think we mentioned in the intro your
Speaker 1: work with people pleasers. How did that come about?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, probably like many other therapists, it's experiences that
Speaker 2: I've had that I'm passionate about helping. And you know,
Speaker 2: I find it like fascinating, especially with the nervous system,
Speaker 2: thinking about it as like fawning, and with that kind
Speaker 2: of response, there's a lot of like mindfulness of the
Speaker 2: other and hypervigilance of like scanning environments, and then with
Speaker 2: that there's like not a connection oftentimes to themselves. In
Speaker 2: some ways, it can be like a bit helpful and
Speaker 2: that they're super tuned to others for themselves for safety reasons,
Speaker 2: like it is a it is an adaptation. But to
Speaker 2: help people to move from that to be more like
Speaker 2: empowered and connected to what feels right for them is
Speaker 2: like very exciting for me. For people to like have
Speaker 2: boundaries or decide like it's okay for me to say
Speaker 2: no about this thing and really listen, like maybe I'm
Speaker 2: saying yes to this thing. But it actually really doesn't
Speaker 2: feel good.
Speaker 1: For me, So correct me if I'm wrong here. But
Speaker 1: what you're describing in a sense, are the kind of
Speaker 1: the foundation of trauma, right, is people pleasing well even
Speaker 1: before we get there. Yeah, to what degree was this
Speaker 1: your experience? I mean, did you grow up like this
Speaker 1: needing to be hyper visualistes and talk more about that?
Speaker 2: I think that one just being as raised as a woman,
Speaker 2: I think that sometimes we often times can be very
Speaker 2: socialized to be mindful of our environment and due to
Speaker 2: different like familial environments, Like I was very much attuned
Speaker 2: to other people's emotions. So with that I did develop
Speaker 2: more of a style to people please, to fawn and
Speaker 2: like Over the years, I've been better able to like
Speaker 2: differentiate that and come into more of myself, which has
Speaker 2: been like really empowering and exciting stuff for myself.
Speaker 1: How did you learn that?
Speaker 2: Well, I think doing a lot of the work, like
Speaker 2: I'm really passionate about of like walking, like doing the
Speaker 2: walk and talk like what I'm saying to my clients,
Speaker 2: I'm really practicing for myself. And you know, I can
Speaker 2: only go as like my clients can only go as
Speaker 2: deep as I can, So you know, doing somatic experiencing
Speaker 2: has really helped me to notice more of those nuances
Speaker 2: and getting more connected to maybe my fight response, like
Speaker 2: getting I like to say, like I connect more to
Speaker 2: like my sassiness, which is something maybe I've lost with
Speaker 2: a little bit of the people pleasing. I mean, I
Speaker 2: think I've always had a bit of sassiness, but like
Speaker 2: that as a protective response. And yeah, with that, it's
Speaker 2: been really interesting to see how that shifted in my
Speaker 2: personal relationships and how like that actually feels really nice
Speaker 2: even though there's you know, maybe some shifts and changes
Speaker 2: like that, I'm really listening what feels good for me
Speaker 2: and not like over extending myself or you know, maybe
Speaker 2: overfunctioning in relationships.
Speaker 1: This is I mean, this is hard stuff to be
Speaker 1: able to do this. I mean obviously it's different for everybody,
Speaker 1: but this idea of people pleasing, and because oftentimes it
Speaker 1: has the roots are deep. Right. How can you talk
Speaker 1: about a particular maybe client you had, or how you
Speaker 1: work with someone around this topic? What do you look
Speaker 1: for what comes up?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, yeah, there's a variety of ways in which
Speaker 2: it shares. I mean, nowadays with people, a lot more
Speaker 2: educated people will come and you know, maybe share that
Speaker 2: about themselves. I'm often looking for people who like maybe
Speaker 2: over extend themselves in relationships or when we're meeting, I'm
Speaker 2: hearing them, you know, they're saying they're doing this thing,
Speaker 2: but like in their body or like, you know, there's
Speaker 2: other cues that let me know they don't really want
Speaker 2: to do it. It might show up to in like
Speaker 2: romantic relationships. Oftentimes there is like a history like growing
Speaker 2: up with an individual who adapted to people please, so
Speaker 2: often that also is a cue.
Speaker 1: And is that oftentimes a sign of maybe trauma?
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah I would.
Speaker 1: I can't say, we can't say definitively all the time,
Speaker 1: but maybe.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I would say, yeah, okay, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1: So how do things unfold for you? What does that
Speaker 1: look like when you're working with someone and maybe you
Speaker 1: see that disconnect or experience that disconnect. How are you
Speaker 1: kind of peeling the onion layers back if you will.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, A big piece I think is like naming
Speaker 2: it and also providing psycho education surrounding it of like, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, there's telling them two about the different threat
Speaker 2: responses and fonding being one of them. You know, it's
Speaker 2: a newer one, so not everyone's like aware of it,
Speaker 2: but I might say, like, you know, that sounds similar
Speaker 2: to people pleasing, Like does that like resonate with you
Speaker 2: and your relationships? It might look like this also, like
Speaker 2: in the body, if there's like a lot of hypervigilance,
Speaker 2: then I get curious about that. A lot of it too,
Speaker 2: is like tracking in the body. And I think like
Speaker 2: the slowing down because with anxiety or being hypervigilant, like
Speaker 2: things are moving quite quickly, so like also in our work,
Speaker 2: slowing things down, getting curious about what's showing up in
Speaker 2: the body. And I think the pausing, slowing down and
Speaker 2: checking in with the body is a really helpful way
Speaker 2: to start to shift things or for people to start
Speaker 2: to notice and be curious about what their tendency is
Speaker 2: versus like what feels grounded to them.
Speaker 1: How do you define people pleasing?
Speaker 2: It's a good question. Yeah, I would say someone who
Speaker 2: tends to be vigilant or concerned with other people's needs,
Speaker 2: maybe over themselves. Maybe at times that looks like sacrificing
Speaker 2: their own needs or wants for someone else.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I'm just thinking about that, and that
Speaker 1: just can oftentimes be so insidious because it oftentimes presents
Speaker 1: a such a conflict you're wanting to do something or
Speaker 1: you you do something but you're not wanting to do
Speaker 1: it at all, right, right, And it just seems to
Speaker 1: me like you just can can fuel this intense anxiety,
Speaker 1: and when it becomes a pattern, we find ourselves living
Speaker 1: a life that we don't want, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's what I see a lot with clients too,
Speaker 2: is like there's high burnout and exhaustion. So sometimes I'll
Speaker 2: see clients come to that in when that's like, you know,
Speaker 2: they've really overextended themselves. And also I think a bit
Speaker 2: too like regret, like they're like, I did this thing
Speaker 2: and then afterward I'm like, oh, I kind of wish
Speaker 2: I didn't do that.
Speaker 1: So when you're working with someone like this, you mentioned
Speaker 1: kind of sematical encouraging, sematic awareness, providing that foundation for
Speaker 1: that are there because a lot of times people sometimes
Speaker 1: people don't even know how to tap and what do
Speaker 1: you mean be aware of my body? What are you
Speaker 1: talking about? Or no it's too triggering? M M. Yeah,
Speaker 1: how do you work with that? What do you do? Yeah?
Speaker 2: I think it's definitely scaffolding based on a client like
Speaker 2: that and maybe initially too, it's like where do you
Speaker 2: attune and notice maybe desire and like where like sometimes
Speaker 2: I'll offer a body scan of like or all model
Speaker 2: to themselves, to them of like, oh, when I'm feeling
Speaker 2: this way, I might notice it in my stomach, So
Speaker 2: it's just like kind of first noticing. Of course, with
Speaker 2: different trauma, like going to the body can be quite
Speaker 2: scary or like uncomfortable or dissociative. So with that slowing
Speaker 2: down and yeah, I think a tuning first to pleasure
Speaker 2: is oftentimes the way the way i'll I'll invite that curious.
Speaker 1: And with a situation like people pleasing, how does that
Speaker 1: sematic awareness help somebody help the client?
Speaker 2: Right, Well, it helps someone to really attune to their
Speaker 2: body a mentor of mind sets, like you know, the
Speaker 2: the body never lies, like it always tells the truth.
Speaker 2: It's maybe a little bit quieter than the mind, but
Speaker 2: you know, the mind has thoughts and thoughts are not facts.
Speaker 2: So I think with that, it's like the body will
Speaker 2: let you know something feels good or doesn't feel good.
Speaker 2: So with that, like getting that information can better inform
Speaker 2: the person of like what makes me want to lean
Speaker 2: towards that is that like a response due to my trauma,
Speaker 2: due you know, to other experiences, or does this actually
Speaker 2: feel good for me and good for me and my body.
Speaker 1: Let's take a shift a little bit. You talked earlier
Speaker 1: on about one of your experiences working with teams, and
Speaker 1: you said that was like maybe one of the most
Speaker 1: challenging experiences you've had. I'm curious what about that was
Speaker 1: challenging for you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I hadn't yet gone to grad school and
Speaker 2: I was a residential counselor, and yeah, I was I
Speaker 2: you know, it is a bit overwhelming to be in that,
Speaker 2: you know, that environment. You know, it wasn't a touch facility,
Speaker 2: which so like if someone were to act out or
Speaker 2: get physical, there's not much like the staff could do.
Speaker 2: And I think also like at that time, getting more
Speaker 2: confident within myself, you know, my own people pleasing tendencies
Speaker 2: of like maybe I didn't want to enforce a rule
Speaker 2: because I was worried about how someone may react. But
Speaker 2: the kids were all like so lovely, and it's also
Speaker 2: so fun to work with, like the teens. But yeah,
Speaker 2: it was hard to managed the different challenges that came
Speaker 2: up or the level of activation if someone was having
Speaker 2: like a big you know, if they were throwing something,
Speaker 2: or once I had a client who she didn't like
Speaker 2: that I enforced a rule and then was like circling
Speaker 2: my car with a rock, and I was like, there's
Speaker 2: nothing I can do if this client decides to throw
Speaker 2: a rock at my car. But so in those ways,
Speaker 2: it was quite challenging. But I think a big piece
Speaker 2: I learned there too is how important rapport is with
Speaker 2: those clients, and like also using humor, which is a
Speaker 2: helpful way for me too to like express different interventions,
Speaker 2: and like that was the humor piece too, is very
Speaker 2: connective for the teens as well.
Speaker 1: As a people pleaser. How did that show up in
Speaker 1: your work earlier on? And I'm curious what that would
Speaker 1: look like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good question. Probably early on it was
Speaker 2: like a like a bit like one doing a good job,
Speaker 2: you know, like the beginning was like nerve wracking for
Speaker 2: me and being a therapist, like getting comfortable within that
Speaker 2: professional role. And also like probably I wouldn't challenge clients
Speaker 2: quite as much as I would now and have the
Speaker 2: ability within myself to sit with more of like the
Speaker 2: more challenging experiences that someone might have, as well as
Speaker 2: like my boundaries probably like weren't as refined as they
Speaker 2: are now. Like you know, when I worked at the
Speaker 2: equine site, people who often came to do equine therapy
Speaker 2: were like often people who've tried other modalities and it
Speaker 2: wasn't connected so like like more complex cases as well
Speaker 2: as the environment that I was in was a more
Speaker 2: higher ses environment, so also like more maybe entitled client.
Speaker 2: So I notice a lot of you know, people will
Speaker 2: be texting me and like asking for more things like
Speaker 2: when I wasn't meeting with them or things like that,
Speaker 2: and yeah, was learning to navigate those situations and dealing
Speaker 2: with like seeing teens or kids and working with their
Speaker 2: parents and being assertive with them and giving them feedback
Speaker 2: with something that was like a learning curve as well.
Speaker 1: What do you feel, Sarah allows you to do this work?
Speaker 1: What do you feel is like would you say one
Speaker 1: of your strengths in the work you do?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I really love my job, which is such
Speaker 2: a blessing. I think when I'm naturally a very curious person,
Speaker 2: and my friends will say, I'm like really non judgmental,
Speaker 2: like I'm not really bothered by too much per se,
Speaker 2: So like I think that really helps. And yeah, the
Speaker 2: care for the people that I meet with, Like I
Speaker 2: genuinely really do care for them and for their success
Speaker 2: and for the growth that they're hoping for and the
Speaker 2: hope for that as well. Yeah, and I also really
Speaker 2: love that, like the job invites you to continue to
Speaker 2: grow and challenge yourself and like constantly learning and you know,
Speaker 2: where can I learn more to help this client? Like
Speaker 2: I love that part of the job too. So, yeah, when.
Speaker 1: You were when you were starting out, even as you progressed,
Speaker 1: did you understand how necessary it was for you as
Speaker 1: a therapist or therapists in general, like to do their
Speaker 1: own work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I think I learned more and more time progress.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I felt like how could I do this
Speaker 2: job without having my own therapy? There are some clinicians
Speaker 2: and some of my graduate program who like hadn't done
Speaker 2: therapy before, and I was really curious as to like,
Speaker 2: you know, that's interesting to not have that experience and
Speaker 2: know you want to do this. But but yeah, for me,
Speaker 2: more and more every time, I'm like learning more about
Speaker 2: myself doing more. The somatic experience as a as a
Speaker 2: client has really helped me to to grow to challenge
Speaker 2: myself and and then that is only beneficial for my
Speaker 2: clients and also for my you know, my own well
Speaker 2: being and and showing up as the most grounded version
Speaker 2: of myself that I could.
Speaker 1: So who do you who would you say you work
Speaker 1: with who's like your clientele?
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry, sorry, I'm doing I'm doing a workshop.
Speaker 2: I'm in the middle of a workshop, so I like
Speaker 2: just immuted it. But I work with a wide variety,
Speaker 2: So I've seen like five and up. I work a
Speaker 2: lot with teens and adults, and do some couples and
Speaker 2: adult children and parents. But yeah, I work a lot
Speaker 2: with people who have anxiety, who have relational trauma. You know,
Speaker 2: that's like something that I'm very passionate about helping people
Speaker 2: with lgbt QI plus community. And then who Oftentimes people
Speaker 2: come to me too because maybe like myself, I've done
Speaker 2: the talk therapy and like cognitively know all these things,
Speaker 2: but there's a disconnect in terms of what you're wanting.
Speaker 2: Or it's like maybe I practice all these skills, I
Speaker 2: know these skills, but I'm not getting grounded. I'm not
Speaker 2: like getting the results that I would like. So people
Speaker 2: who are looking for a little more depth or creating
Speaker 2: shifts that maybe they weren't getting in like traditional talk therapy.
Speaker 1: Awesome, awesome, all right, how do people learn more about you?
Speaker 1: What's the best way?
Speaker 2: So they can go through my website? Sarah Lickstein LMFT
Speaker 2: dot com. I'm also on Instagram. I'm not as active
Speaker 2: on it, but I am there. Which is Sematics underscore,
Speaker 2: Sematics under underscore Sarah. I might have to look that up, actually,
Speaker 2: Sematics with Sarah. I may have to check.
Speaker 1: Hold on, let me check right now, Sematics with Sarah.
Speaker 2: Clearly I don't go on that frequently, but yeah, Sembatics
Speaker 2: underscore with underscore Sarah.
Speaker 1: All right, Semantics okay, we'll have that linked up here
Speaker 1: at the show notes page at the Trauma Therapist podcast
Speaker 1: dot com. Artser That is it. You did it.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much. It was so great to speak with you.
Speaker 2: I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Likewise, all right, take care, take care,