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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to the Doctor Wendy Wall Show on KFI

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<v Speaker 1>AM six forty, live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm about to fangirl again. You know, I do this

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<v Speaker 1>every once in a while. I get somebody on the

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<v Speaker 1>show who I'm actually a big fan of. And this

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<v Speaker 1>week's guest is doctor Paul Eastwick. He's a professor at

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<v Speaker 1>UC Davis. But get this, he runs a lab where

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<v Speaker 1>he does research on all my favorite subjects, attraction relationships.

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<v Speaker 1>But also he's cool because he's co hosting the podcast

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<v Speaker 1>Love Factually, of.

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<v Speaker 2>Course, available on the iHeartRadio app. Hi, doctor Paul, how

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<v Speaker 2>are you hi?

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<v Speaker 3>Very goodness, Thanks someone for having me on today.

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<v Speaker 2>You didn't know that I would be fangirling on you

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<v Speaker 2>on live radio.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah right right, Okay, I'm ready. I'll see if I

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<v Speaker 3>can live up to this.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So what I want to talk about we don't

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<v Speaker 1>have a whole lot of time. But what I like

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<v Speaker 1>to talk about is your mate evaluation theory. But before

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<v Speaker 1>we do that, I need to know this story behind

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<v Speaker 1>Love Factually. It is such a brilliant title for your podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>What is the podcast Love Factually?

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<v Speaker 3>Yes? So the basic idea behind the podcast is along

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<v Speaker 3>with my longtime collaborator and now co host, Eli Finkle,

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<v Speaker 3>we take the science of close relationships as we have

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<v Speaker 3>understood it and internalized it over the years, and what

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<v Speaker 3>we do is we talk about how various rom coms

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<v Speaker 3>and romantic films reflect what we know in the science,

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<v Speaker 3>either what the films are getting right or what they're

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<v Speaker 3>kind of mangling.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm going to tell you that I have always

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<v Speaker 1>said what they get wrong pretty much one hundred percent

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<v Speaker 1>of them is that they.

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<v Speaker 2>End at the beginning of a relationship.

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<v Speaker 3>That is is a fantastic point. There's so many of

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<v Speaker 3>those films that classically do that right. You get what

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<v Speaker 3>you're doing. You're seeing what amounts to something like the

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<v Speaker 3>first ten percent of the relationship, and that's part is

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<v Speaker 3>supposed to make it feel good and like send you

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<v Speaker 3>home feeling happy. And look, sometimes they depict that early

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<v Speaker 3>ten percent. Well, but we got to acknowledge that there's

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<v Speaker 3>a lot left to come when the movies ends, when

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<v Speaker 3>the couple gets together.

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<v Speaker 1>Right and they get past their limerins and move into

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<v Speaker 1>intellectual commitment kind of love.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Yeah, Now, we've covered plenty of movies that do

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<v Speaker 3>cover the whole art, and it's actually kind of tough

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<v Speaker 3>if we want to give the movies a break, it's

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<v Speaker 3>tough to go from beginning all the way to the end. Right,

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<v Speaker 3>are there anything? Lala Land is one that does it

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<v Speaker 3>really well. Yeah, I mean right there the notebook, come

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<v Speaker 3>on the notework, Yeah, right right, that is one of

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<v Speaker 3>the view that goes from the beginning to end. Really

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<v Speaker 3>the end the spoiler alert, yeah, really the end literally

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<v Speaker 3>the notebook. Yeah, but they're out there, and we like

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<v Speaker 3>to give you know, you know, accolades to those movies

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<v Speaker 3>that pull it off.

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<v Speaker 1>So, moving from the podcast onto some of your research.

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<v Speaker 1>One of your most famous studies has to do with

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<v Speaker 1>something called mate evaluation theory, and it basically talks about

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<v Speaker 1>how people analyze, evaluate, make selection for potential mates.

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<v Speaker 2>And and I read the.

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<v Speaker 1>Whole study today because what I do is I turn

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<v Speaker 1>it into language everyone can understand. And now I'm going

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<v Speaker 1>to have you correct me if I say it wrong.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, Okay, I'm ready.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm ready.

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<v Speaker 1>There are basically five ways that people evaluate a mate. Right, first,

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<v Speaker 1>you talk about something called shared evolved mechanisms and cultural scripts.

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<v Speaker 1>Is this David Buss's evolutionary stuff? I'm hearing that women

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<v Speaker 1>like men who are tall, and men like men who

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<v Speaker 1>are fertile and round himpt waste.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, really it is. It is definitely meant to encompass that. Right.

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<v Speaker 3>So anything that's like agreed upon whether the reason for

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<v Speaker 3>agreement is there something evolved in the mind that this

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<v Speaker 3>is appealing to who we are as a species on average,

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<v Speaker 3>or because I don't know, we've decided in this culture

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<v Speaker 3>that you know, it's appealing if you can like make

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<v Speaker 3>really great TikTok videos like actually, right, but this is attractive.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I will say I'm a woman of a

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<v Speaker 1>certain age, and I've watched female body shape change over

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<v Speaker 1>the years, and in the nineteen eighties it was the

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<v Speaker 1>advent of the boob job, and it was very exciting

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<v Speaker 1>to suddenly see breasts on everybody. And now it's all

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<v Speaker 1>about but right, Yeah, So that's one example of a

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<v Speaker 1>cultural script.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, Moving on number two.

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<v Speaker 1>Individual differences that affect how a perceiver. That's somebody who's

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<v Speaker 1>attracted somebody views all potential mates. So is this like

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<v Speaker 1>somebody's deal breaker list, Like this is my checklist, these

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<v Speaker 1>are things I'm looking for.

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<v Speaker 3>I would think of this one as like this is

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<v Speaker 3>like people's own personality. So some people are happy people,

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<v Speaker 3>and honestly, they're going to be happy in whatever relationship

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<v Speaker 3>you put them in, and some people not so much,

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<v Speaker 3>and they're going to be kind of miserable in whatever

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<v Speaker 3>relationship you put them in. So that's that's this component.

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<v Speaker 3>It's kind of like just your lens that you take

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<v Speaker 3>to the whole world and it doesn't matter who you're with.

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<v Speaker 1>Interesting because my new husband, Julio, he is a giggly

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<v Speaker 1>Dominican and he's the happiest person.

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<v Speaker 2>I've ever met in my life.

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<v Speaker 3>There you go.

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<v Speaker 1>Then I'm met his whole family in Dominican Republic and

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<v Speaker 1>they all giggle. I was like, wow, it's a cultural thing.

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<v Speaker 2>This is cool.

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<v Speaker 3>Yep, And they happy with anybody, even me. There you

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<v Speaker 3>go and like, look, don't feel bad. It's a really

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<v Speaker 3>good good thing to be to have a little bit

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<v Speaker 3>of some rose colored glasses as you view the boys.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh yes, I have to reel him back in all

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<v Speaker 1>the time. Is his optimism is a little too high?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, moving out of the third one.

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<v Speaker 1>Individual differences that affect how a perceiver views some targets

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<v Speaker 1>depending on the target's features.

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<v Speaker 2>So let me take a crack at this. Yep, So

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<v Speaker 2>would this be correct?

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe somebody with an anxious attachment style might look at

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<v Speaker 1>a partner's emotional passion and intensity as being really attractive.

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<v Speaker 1>But if that person looking is avoidant, they might feel smothered.

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<v Speaker 3>That's a great example. Yeah, I mean this also would

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<v Speaker 3>encompass the deal breaker list you mentioned earlier, the idea

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<v Speaker 3>that I, like, I can't stand people who you know,

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<v Speaker 3>like going to fancy seven course meal restaurants, Like I

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<v Speaker 3>just can't be with somebody like that, Like that is,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, too high falutin for me. If you have

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<v Speaker 3>that kind of deal breaker, that's this third one that

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<v Speaker 3>you're talking about.

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<v Speaker 1>No, yourself, do not invite Paul to dinner out, Okay, gotcha?

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<v Speaker 2>All right.

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<v Speaker 1>My guest is University of California, Davis Professor, doctor Paul Eastwick.

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<v Speaker 1>He is also a researcher in attraction, relationships, interpersonal love, sex,

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<v Speaker 1>the whole shabang. He has the numbers and the data

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<v Speaker 1>on it. Okay, doctor Paul. Your mate evaluation theory, how

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<v Speaker 1>people evaluate mates to be a potential mate. You say,

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<v Speaker 1>narratives about idiosyncratic reactions to one particular target. Now, I

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<v Speaker 1>just got to admonish you on that is some psychobabble there. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>I had to think about that for a minute.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, what we do?

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<v Speaker 1>So I would say this is like I think this

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<v Speaker 1>is the exciting part because this is does this mean

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<v Speaker 1>that if you have the sense that there's great meaning

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<v Speaker 1>to this relationship to you in particular, I don't know,

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<v Speaker 1>like there's something about this person that makes you go, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>it's meant to be.

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<v Speaker 2>It feels magical.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes. And it's also about the things that you construct

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<v Speaker 3>along the way. And this is the one that I

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<v Speaker 3>think is if you ask the average person what is

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<v Speaker 3>important in your relationship, they're gonna ultimately gravitate towards these

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<v Speaker 3>kinds of things. The special rituals we have, the pet

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<v Speaker 3>names we have for each other, the customs that we built,

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<v Speaker 3>the values that we've created over time, and this stuff

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<v Speaker 3>is huge.

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<v Speaker 1>So this is as a couple creating, or what an

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<v Speaker 1>individual creates in their life and then says, wow, this

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<v Speaker 1>person fits that.

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<v Speaker 3>It is really supposed to be what you are creating.

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<v Speaker 3>I'll say like this, well, you're creating them in a

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<v Speaker 3>context with this particular person. And the real idea with

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<v Speaker 3>this one is the idea that like, I can't just

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<v Speaker 3>take somebody else who like looks a lot like your

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<v Speaker 3>partner and substitute them in. Like, the point is that

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<v Speaker 3>this person was there along the way for the creation

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<v Speaker 3>of these things, Like you have memories with this person,

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<v Speaker 3>and that's that's what it's really about.

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<v Speaker 1>And I always say relationships are a living thing. They're

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<v Speaker 1>like growing a gardener together. And having been prior to

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<v Speaker 1>meeting my now husband, I was a single mom for

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<v Speaker 1>twenty years with two little girls, and I did not

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<v Speaker 1>want to risk exposing my kids to a poor romantic

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<v Speaker 1>choice that I might make. But I knew that if

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<v Speaker 1>I kept studying this stuff, by the time they got

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<v Speaker 1>of age and old enough, I would find a person.

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<v Speaker 1>But there is something now that I'm in a secure

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<v Speaker 1>attachment where I really.

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<v Speaker 2>Feel like there's a living thing.

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<v Speaker 1>Like we're co thinkers, we're cod emotional you know. He

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<v Speaker 1>does half the thinking, you know, and I do half

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<v Speaker 1>the intellectual work. I mean, a great example, here's a simple,

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<v Speaker 1>simple example, and I'm sure many couples do this. One

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<v Speaker 1>of us will be working on an email and we

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<v Speaker 1>will read it aloud to the other person. It might

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<v Speaker 1>be an important and he will add more business language

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<v Speaker 1>or analytic language to mine, and I will add more

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<v Speaker 1>emotional language to yep.

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<v Speaker 3>So we become get a couple of emojis in there

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<v Speaker 3>at an exclamation point exactly, and.

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<v Speaker 2>Now we're a team. We're thinking like one brain exactly.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, right, And it's this thing that people build

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<v Speaker 3>together that you know, what we try to point out

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<v Speaker 3>in this paper is we all kind of intuitively get

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<v Speaker 3>that this that's really important, and we as researchers are

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<v Speaker 3>actually not great at capturing it. And that's for a

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<v Speaker 3>bunch of methodological reasons that aren't especially fascinating. But the

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<v Speaker 3>bottom line is what we think the lion's share of

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<v Speaker 3>compatibility is how well you create a culture to your

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<v Speaker 3>relationship and hip well, we actually just haven't. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>there's a lot out there about that that still needs

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<v Speaker 3>to be explored and understood, and just so.

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<v Speaker 1>That people understand what you just said, one of the

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<v Speaker 1>problems with doing relationship research is a lot of it

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<v Speaker 1>is self reporting. You can't like put people in MRI

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<v Speaker 1>machines and just say, oh, there's love, although some attachment

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<v Speaker 1>researchers are doing.

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<v Speaker 3>That right right.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so let's go to what made evaluation theory can

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<v Speaker 1>teach us about dating. Now that we know these points, what,

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<v Speaker 1>how does that help us make better decisions?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I think where it can really help people is

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<v Speaker 3>to recognize that there's some amount of curiosity that is

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<v Speaker 3>important when it comes to being in a relationship with somebody.

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<v Speaker 3>It's curiosity about how did we get to this point

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<v Speaker 3>and are the patterns we set up early in our

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<v Speaker 3>relationship still serving us well? You know, one of the

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<v Speaker 3>challenges that often happen is that, you know, couples do

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<v Speaker 3>things because they work right, and they keep those things

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<v Speaker 3>going because they were affected at one time. But it

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<v Speaker 3>can be very easy for one or both couple members

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<v Speaker 3>to lose track of what their needs are as they

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<v Speaker 3>change over time, and to realize that the patterns they've

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<v Speaker 3>set up might actually now be getting in the way,

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<v Speaker 3>might easily even be stifling one of them. And so,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, I'm a big believer that you know that

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<v Speaker 3>many couples can make it work, but it does require

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<v Speaker 3>some amount of curiosity about what the other person is

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<v Speaker 3>experiencing and how did we get here? Do we need

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<v Speaker 3>to mix things up or not right?

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<v Speaker 2>I call it rewriting the relationship contract from time to time.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, there you go.

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<v Speaker 1>And also when it comes to choosing a mate, looking

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<v Speaker 1>at some of these cultural scripts is a good idea

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<v Speaker 1>for us to become aware of them and realize how

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<v Speaker 1>they could be limiting us.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, I mean, I'm a big believer in the idea

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<v Speaker 3>that actually the narratives that you co create with somebody

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<v Speaker 3>really begin from the first moment. Like a lot of times,

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<v Speaker 3>what we think we're trying to do is assess things

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<v Speaker 3>like how how good are you know this person's traits?

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<v Speaker 3>Are they attractive, are they intelligent? Are they funny? But

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<v Speaker 3>what we're really doing is trying to figure out are

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<v Speaker 3>they funny with me? Right? Do they seem smart with me?

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<v Speaker 3>Do they make me feel smart? Like it's relational from

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<v Speaker 3>the very first few minutes. I mean, we even see

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<v Speaker 3>this if you look at you know, first impression research,

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<v Speaker 3>and we've collected a lot of data on first impressions.

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<v Speaker 3>But what people are trying to do is just find

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<v Speaker 3>something where they both have a little bit of knowledge

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<v Speaker 3>in common and they can kind of try to start

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<v Speaker 3>scaffolding something together, something that they have in common, something

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<v Speaker 3>that they can sort of bond over a little bit,

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<v Speaker 3>and then you sort of build up from there. So

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<v Speaker 3>you know, everything is a construction, and it really happens

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<v Speaker 3>from the very beginning.

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<v Speaker 1>So when I met my husband during COVID, during quarantine

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<v Speaker 1>and lockdown, my rule was they had to meet me

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<v Speaker 1>on a windy pier wearing a mask. Okay, And if

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<v Speaker 1>they couldn't do that, then if they want to protect

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<v Speaker 1>my health's not going to happen. And then when we

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<v Speaker 1>sat down, for I only do coffee days, so it

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<v Speaker 1>was only twenty minutes they got.

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<v Speaker 2>You got to leave them wanting more, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>And then I said, when we sat down, I said, look,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, we could sit here and brag about the

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<v Speaker 1>masks were off at this point because we were more

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<v Speaker 1>than six feet apart and the wind was going. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>And I said, we could sit here and brag about

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<v Speaker 1>how great we are and how datable we are. But

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<v Speaker 1>could we begin actually by each of us telling a

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<v Speaker 1>story of why we think we're completely undateable.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh that's wonderful.

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<v Speaker 1>He said, Okay, you'll go first, and he had a

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<v Speaker 1>much much more tragic story than I did. But it

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<v Speaker 1>developed intimacy from the get go.

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<v Speaker 3>Yep, right, yep, it was that's great. Yeah, it's spot

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<v Speaker 3>on I love to plug art Aaron, and you know

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<v Speaker 3>the grade thirty six questions. Oh, yes, study love. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>I mean right exactly. But really, what you're doing in

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<v Speaker 3>that sixty and ninety minute period is you are getting

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<v Speaker 3>comfortable and then talking about things that are interesting and

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<v Speaker 3>deep and meaningful. And people can do this in short

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<v Speaker 3>periods of time.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, And within ten minutes of our coffee coming,

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<v Speaker 1>both of us had our eyes welling up with tears

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<v Speaker 1>over our stories.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and dealing with.

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<v Speaker 1>The shame of having to tell the story too, right, yeah, So,

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<v Speaker 1>and so I wanted to ask you one more question

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<v Speaker 1>before time is so tight in radio.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm sorry.

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<v Speaker 1>The last question has to do when it comes to

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<v Speaker 1>this study with these sort of these models we have

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<v Speaker 1>in our heads for what we're talking specifically heter rich

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<v Speaker 1>sexual relationship. Here, for my example, an opposite gender parents

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<v Speaker 1>role is in our model of love. So, for instance,

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<v Speaker 1>with my husband, we will be out shopping somewhere and

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<v Speaker 1>he'll be in the next aisle over and he will

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<v Speaker 1>clear his throat and one hundred percent it is my dad.

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<v Speaker 1>Everything about the sound, the tone, everything, And I almost

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<v Speaker 1>get startled when I hear it. Did I unconsciously choose

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<v Speaker 1>him partly because of that.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh, I don't know. I mean, there is a little

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<v Speaker 3>bit of work showing that, yeah, that people can be

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<v Speaker 3>unconsciously primed with images of parents, and you know, they

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<v Speaker 3>feel a little bit more safe. And so maybe if

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<v Speaker 3>that you know, is coming from somebody of your you know,

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<v Speaker 3>preferred age and gender, that you just find yourself a

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<v Speaker 3>little bit more attractive with that person for that reason.

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<v Speaker 3>But this stuff is going to be really really subtle.

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<v Speaker 3>These oh yeah, any unconscious effects are going to be

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<v Speaker 3>very very small on the whole. But it's possible that

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<v Speaker 3>you know, things like what you mentioned there, sort of

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<v Speaker 3>the way that he clears his throughout her might be

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<v Speaker 3>a small thing that carried over from those unconscious leaning.

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<v Speaker 1>Which might have been important to me and my trauma

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<v Speaker 1>is that my parents both died of cancer in the

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<v Speaker 1>same year when I was young, and so interesting enough,

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<v Speaker 1>his mother, who's eighty six years old, I love.

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<v Speaker 2>So I got a dad and a mom back with

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<v Speaker 2>this marriage.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, I'm quite sure. Paul.

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<v Speaker 1>It is a delight to have you on the Doctor

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<v Speaker 1>Wendywall Show here on KFI. We are going to have

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<v Speaker 1>your co host Eli Finkel next week, I believe, so

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<v Speaker 1>we'll make sure that we cover love factually as much

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<v Speaker 1>as we can. Thanks so much for being with us.

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<v Speaker 1>My guest is doctor Paul Eastwick, a professor at the

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<v Speaker 1>University of California Davis. You've been listening to the Dr

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<v Speaker 1>Wendywall Show on KFI AM six forty. We're live everywhere

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<v Speaker 1>on the iHeartRadio app Newsroom