Speaker 1: This is Deaf Dave, and you are listening to the
best show on the Internet and a force for good
in the universe, the Shirley You Can't Be Serious Podcast.
Speaker 2: Hello everybody, and welcome back to Shirley You Can't Be
Serious Podcast.
Speaker 3: I'm a huckleberry.
Speaker 4: When is this?
Speaker 2: It is, ladies and gentlemen. We are here to discuss
two awesome movies three three awesome movies. Three awesome movies
that involve cowboys.
Speaker 4: Not many Indians, but Mexican Indians, and some of them.
You keep calling me names. I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3: Does this mean we are not friends?
Speaker 2: If I thought we were not friends, I could not
bear it.
Speaker 4: It's gonna be a clote fans.
Speaker 5: My god.
Speaker 2: Welcome back, everybody. We are here to discuss Tombstone versus
Young Guns one and Young Guns two. We'll probably have
a ranking at the end. I know I've got my
top one in mind, the finishers for a second and
third place. You're going to be up in the air
for me. But okay, you remember watching these movies for
the first time?
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, yes, VHS party. As soon as Young
Guns came out, I picked it up on VHS. I've
watched it a thousand times. Yeah, Young Guns two, same thing.
I picked up the CD and then I picked up
the VHS tape, and then Tombstone was kind of beginning.
Speaker 2: I don't think we.
Speaker 4: Were quiet in the DVD era for me, at least
at that time, but I had it on VHS and
I watched all three of the all the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, these were definitely VHS movies for me and I
Young Guns was kind of that same. I was experiencing
that at the same time that I was experiencing the diehard,
you know phase. Like I was like, Okay, these are
these are my movies right now. And so I don't
really remember how I saw that one first, but I
remember when the second one came out. A buddy of
mine had seen it, and I was like, did you
like it? He goes, I think it was better than
the first one. I was like, oh dang, and I
went I agreed with him. I thought, I thought the
second one was better than the first one.
Speaker 4: And give me a final judgment already.
Speaker 2: No, that's how I felt when I was like, okay, okay, thirteen,
I mean that's okay, okay. I was thirty years ago,
all right.
Speaker 4: The bon Jovie stuff pushed it over the top for you.
Speaker 2: Well, it was a big fact that not as that
Blaze of Gloria was a killer song.
Speaker 3: And then I've got a fantastic burned.
Speaker 2: In my you know, wonderful childhood memories of a snowball
fight that occurred between me and my friends after we
saw the movie Tombstone where the quotes were just flying,
you know, the snowballs were flying, and the quotes were
flying too with them as well.
Speaker 4: That's fantastic. I love that.
Speaker 3: I'm yo Hukaberry.
Speaker 2: And then you.
Speaker 4: Know, Daisy, you know, Daisy Law, don't go around here,
mister I heard you the first time.
Speaker 3: All right, So enough about us, should.
Speaker 2: We jump in.
Speaker 4: Let's jump back in time to the year eighteen eighty one.
Speaker 2: You're so drunk you can't and nothing. In fact, you're
probably seeing sample.
Speaker 4: I have two gums, one fight chobyon.
Speaker 2: We are on the day after the anniversary of the
shootout at the Ok Corral one hundred and forty years ago. Yesterday,
Wyatt and his brothers went to go confront the Clanton's
and mccloughy's and it did not go well.
Speaker 4: Thirty bullets, thirty seconds.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's not an exaggeration. If anything, thirty seconds
is probably overestimating. It was probably even less than that.
Speaker 4: It's incredible, and some folks ended up dead.
Speaker 2: And you know, why should such a short thing end
up in the annals of American history for another one
hundred and forty years. These kind of big deal shootouts
were not like this, like one gang against another gang
just typically didn't happen like this. It was usually one
guy against another guy, you know, the old high noon
kind of thing. Sure, so that's why it was such
a big deal. And then also it's really a big
question at the time, who is in the right? I mean,
history has certainly painted a certain way, But the truth
is the Clanton's and mc clary's they didn't have any
they didn't have any charges. They weren't criminals, they hadn't
gotten anything against them, whereas the Herbs had some stuff
on them.
Speaker 3: Sure, so, but you know, history.
Speaker 4: Is a you know, it's interesting because there were two
newspapers in Tombstone at the time. You know, the newspaper
we're going to lean on. Our knowledge on this time
period is based a lot on what the newspapers told us, right,
and so journalism was not as I don't know.
Speaker 2: That I would say it was not as anything. The
fact is that journalism was biased. It was either going
to be biased. One is. You know, maybe you got
biased arts the IRPs. Maybe you got biased towards the cowboys.
Maybe you got we're going to sensationalize this story so
we'd sell more papers, get more advertising, and maybe you know,
we try to get the truth and we just try
to tell the truth as we believe it to be.
Speaker 4: Well, that's what I was gonna say. That's why it
is now well, yes it is, Yes, it is. One
newspaper in Tombstone sided with the Clintons, one side sided
with Theirs. Yeah, hey, you know what else happened in
eighteen eighty one?
Speaker 2: Let me see, Uh, somebody shot somebody.
Speaker 4: I bet Pat Garrett shot Billy the Kid in the back,
allegedly allegedly you I'll make you famous.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll jump on that when we get to Young
Guns too. Okay, let's start with young guys. It was
the first movie made, so let's jump in there. Hey,
Jam's killing it. If we're in a spairble totally can't
see it right.
Speaker 4: Came out August twelfth, nineteen eighty eight.
Speaker 2: Now, I couldn't find very much on how this movie
came to be. This was a studio movie, so obviously
those things were in play. But yeah, like typically, I've
got a great story, and I don't have a super
good story on this one.
Speaker 3: So here's what'm gonna do.
Speaker 2: I'm wanna tell you about the writer. Okay, So the
writer's name was John Fuscous. Is is because should we
say it now?
Speaker 4: Sure?
Speaker 2: So at the beginning of this year, John Fusco, the
guy who wrote Young Guns and Young Guns two and
Emilio Estevez said we are developing Young Guns three.
Speaker 4: Young Guns three.
Speaker 3: They're not young anymore. It's just gonna have to be
guns three.
Speaker 4: Did you see the movie poster?
Speaker 3: I did see the movie post to.
Speaker 4: See how the word young was shot up with bullets.
Speaker 2: So it's just kind of very creative. So everybody. It
actually on IMDb it says said to be released in
August of next year, we have the third part of
the Young Guns installment.
Speaker 3: I am excited to see what they're going to do
with it.
Speaker 2: I don't know, with everybody dying, how they can they
do possibly, And I mean everybody's thirty something years older.
What how you do it? I don't know how you
do it.
Speaker 4: How's the math work here?
Speaker 2: Well, how's the fact that most of them died work?
Speaker 6: Well?
Speaker 2: I guess maybe they broached the fact that some of
them didn't really die. I mean, Charlie didn't really die
when they had him die, Charlie Javez doc. None of
them died when they say they died in the movie.
So maybe that's it. Maybe that's the big reveal at
the beginning of the movie. Hey, it turns out nobody's
really dead.
Speaker 4: Wow, and they're still avenging John Tunstall.
Speaker 2: If you guys needs to help out with the script,
you can preach us at Shirley Podcast at gmail dot com.
Speaker 4: That's right, that's right.
Speaker 2: Okay. So John Fusco was born in Connecticut. He actually
was a musician. He left high school and decided to
travel the American South as a blues musician and blue
collar worker. He was trying to find some great old
blue songs so he could do the Led Zeppelin thing.
I guess, steal some blue songs, make them some rock songs.
Speaker 4: Wait a minute, he packed up his guitar and he
just took off.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so he traveled around for a while. He
ended up being a part of a band. In seventy nine,
he joined and toured with the Dixie Road Ducks from
Northern Virginia, but soon he left both of those and
went to school to pursue screenwriting. He went to NYU
and he had writing mentors that you a couple of
them are going to recognize, Waldo salt Ring, Lardner Junior
and Lorenzo Simple.
Speaker 3: Really yep.
Speaker 2: He ended up winning back to back honors in the
National Screenwriting Competition in his junior and senior year. He
won the top prize, which was a Nissan Centro. So
that's pretty cool. And he got a contract with the
William Morris Agency and his thesis became the movie that
I've talked about before, the other Ralph Mancio movie of
the eighties, Crossroads, of course, about blues in the South.
Speaker 4: I kin watched it. I've never seen Crossroads.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, you do need to.
Speaker 4: I pride myself on being like an eighties movie gurer,
but I've never seen that.
Speaker 3: It's like, it's like Devil went down to Georgia eighties style.
It really is. It's good. It's such a good movie.
You got checked out.
Speaker 2: So anyway, the final scene of Crossroads is a battle
of guitar playing that takes place in Hell.
Speaker 4: Okay, it's interesting there you go, Okay, keep going.
Speaker 3: And so then he wrote young Guns.
Speaker 2: That's all I've got. I mean, I don't know what
to say, like, I can't find anything else. I don't
know how Christopher Kane was picked to direct it, but
we can talk about Amelia Stevez. He's part of the
brat pack. He had done The Outsiders, he had done
Breakfast Club.
Speaker 4: He had done a movie called That Was Then This
is Now, uh huh with Christopher Kane.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that may have been how he got hooked
on because it seemed like Emelio Estevez was kind of
a driving force on this, although he wasn't the first
one that they wanted to play the part.
Speaker 4: They wanted Sean Penn as Billy the.
Speaker 3: Kid, not crazy. That'd have been a different movie.
Speaker 4: Listen, Emilia Estavez may not be the greatest actor ever
walk down the street. Yeah, he is a perfect Billy
the Kid.
Speaker 2: You know why Sean Penn didn't get the job, right, No,
he's in jail for punching out a photographer.
Speaker 4: Is that right too? Busy. Uh too busy being married
to Madonna at that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess so wow for defending her honor.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I remember those days. Yeah, punched out a photographer.
Before we get into cast too far, I just listen.
We are doing historical movies today. Okay, we're not college professors.
We are just two guys with.
Speaker 1: Well I mean you are you are? Oh? Yes, I am.
Oh that's right, it's me. I can't. I always forget
which one of us was which.
Speaker 4: If you want a really good podcast on Billy the Kid,
Chris Weimer does to America.
Speaker 2: Is Infamous America.
Speaker 4: And Legends of the Old West, and they are fantastic.
Speaker 2: They are really good man, and our friend Dan lefeb
has had him as a guest on his two episodes
on these movies, the Tombstone episode yep and the Young
Guns episode. They just covered Young Guns one, not Young
Guns two. But check those out if you want an
abbreviated version of what Chris has to offer, and then
check out his podcast for sure.
Speaker 4: So I'm just going to cover a brief history on
these characters. Okay, all right, So we really don't know
tons of hard evidence about Billy the Kid, Okay, probably
the most famous Old West outlaw.
Speaker 2: Agreed.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, he's probably top of the list. Okay, so
most people think he was born in New York City.
Actually his birth name was Henry McCarty. Yes, when his
mom got married at a young age, she married a
guy named Antrim, so he took the name Henry Antrim.
Other aliases, you may know him as William H. Bonnie,
uh huh, which I thought this was interesting. So his
whole life he was known as Henry the Kid right right,
Billy Bonnie. And it took a newspaper to finally put
the three magic words together. I believe it was the
Las Vegas, New Mexico Gaza or something. I can't remember
the actual newspaper they finally put together Billy the Kid.
Speaker 3: And man that's magic title?
Speaker 4: Is that incredible? Billy the Kid? Okay, So he was
born in New York City, traveled through Indiana, they made
their way to Wichita, and they ended up in Silver City,
New Mexico. There was a silver boom, Silver City, New Mexico. Right,
Billy's mother died from a lung infection at the age
of forty five, and essentially at that point he was
a teenager he became an orphan, fell in quickly with
the bad crowd, as teenagers often do, was arrested early,
I think eighteen seventy five for stealing laundry from a clothesline,
stealing from a chinaman as well.
Speaker 2: Clark Kent got away with it. Okay, sorry, go ahead, right.
Speaker 4: So, because he was friends with the sheriff's son, right,
and we his parents do this sometimes you watch after
your kid, and because your kid is hanging with us
other you want to make sure that kid is on
the straight and arrow. So the sheriff boughty Man put
him in jail and in essentially a way to scare
him straight. Right, So Billy wasn't really in as much
trouble as he perceived he was. And so when he
was let out for exercise, somebody turned their back. And again,
this is not the prison of today, right, when you've
got to feed prisoners and take care of them, they
would just assume you left. Right, Well, somebody turned their
back and he shimmeed up a chimney and up and
over the wall and out and gone, oh wow, okay,
So he shimmied up like a little kid, you know,
I mean, skinny teenager crawled up at chimney and out
to freedom. So again hanging out with the wrong crowd,
stealing horses from soldiers. You know, this is post Civil war,
I mean just post Civil war. So he's playing cards
one night with a guy they called Wendy k Hill
like blows like the wind. Wendy calling Wendy because he
liked to tell these long, elaborate stories. I thought he
was full of crap. Yeah, right, Well, he started giving
the kid a hard time and calling him. He called him,
we know, he called him a pimp and a son
of a bitch, and he was holding him down. They
got in a scuffle.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he had his knees. He's saying he was.
Speaker 2: Hacking on him.
Speaker 4: He's hacking on it. So he had him down, he
had his knees on his shoulders and was slapping him
and embarrassing him.
Speaker 2: This is the Wendy slapping Billy, Wendy slapping Billy of
the kid who is like seventeen at this moment.
Speaker 4: And so what happens. He gets a hold of a
pistol somehow and shoots this guy and he commits his
first murder right self defense.
Speaker 3: Probably, Yeah, once.
Speaker 4: Again, he takes off, probably probably gets cleared and self defense.
But you know you're young, you're seventeen. You're like, crap,
I just shot a guy. I'm gone right, Okay, so sheriff.
So he takes off. That happened in Arizona. He bails
on Arizona, goes to New Mexico. Okay, So when he
ord in New Mexico, it's right as the Lincoln Wars
are getting ready to happen.
Speaker 2: So the Lincoln Wars I'll throw in with this, all right.
So you've got John Tunstall, you've got Alex McSween, and
you've got the Murphy Dolan gang. Yes, right, Jack balances Murphy.
You don't really see Dolan. You get him like a
little glimpse of him in the back. But the truth
is a little bit different than what we see in
the movie. For one, John Tunstall was like twenty three
years old. He was younger than Doc, he was younger
than Charlie, he was younger. Yeah, he was younger than
everybody except for Billy the kids. So he wasn't like
this old mentor. He was a guy from England who
had come across to make his fortune, and he happens
to run into Alex McSween.
Speaker 4: It's fascinating story. So they are in Santa Fe, New Mexico,
in a hotel restaurant and he overhears Alex McSween saying
the words that, boy, if somebody really had some grit,
they could go down to Lincoln County and make a
lot of money, run cattle and you know, competing against
the Murphy Dolan Gang.
Speaker 2: McSween had been the attorney for the Murphy Dolan Gang. Yes, like,
so he was like, oh, well, I can help out
because I know all the ins and outs of their organization.
I can tell you in today's world that will get
you in big trouble as a lawyer.
Speaker 3: Yeah, But back then, I guess it just it was
what it was. So he knew the secrets of the
Murphy Dolan Gang, he knew how crooked they were, and
he was like, I would like to get someone who's
a decent person in charge here and taken over this thing,
and I know how their game works, so I can
help you out. So it was really him that was
kind of pushing John Tunstall into doing this.
Speaker 4: John Tussell had some family money, yeah, and he did
have some fortitude. Yeah, right, he had the balls to
go against the Murphy Dolan gang. Yeah, and he was
quoted as saying that he wanted fifty cents of every
dollar spent in New Mexico. So John Tussell, it wasn't
that he wasn't ambitious or even greedy, right, He just
wasn't willing to murder people.
Speaker 2: Right. He would take up arms and he would defend
and that sort of thing, which was different than McSween.
McSween was anti violence completely like he, which is, you know,
ironic that he would be gunned down in the front
yard of his house while his house was burning. Tunstall
was one who would take up the fight, but wasn't
one to go instigate.
Speaker 4: Yes, So it is interesting before we really go any further,
almost everybody, at least the main people are based on
real people in Young Guns and Tombstone. Yeah.
Speaker 2: The historical accuracy of these movies, given that they are
really good and Hollywood movies, right, is really pretty impressive.
Speaker 4: It is impressed.
Speaker 2: I mean, the fact is there are just some really
cool things going on back in the eighteen eighties and
we got the benefit of being able to capture it
via Hollywood. Okay, guys, we're going to take a brief break.
We're coming to you with our Shirly showcase. We have
a special Patreon member who is joining us today to
tell us her opinion on one of our prior episodes.
Speaker 4: Yeah, she's Torontonian. Her name is Addie and this is
what she has to say.
Speaker 6: Hey, guys, this is Addie from Toronto, Ontario and I
really love your podcast, so thank you for asking me
to be a part of it. This is really exciting.
I've listened to your podcast for a few weeks now,
maybe a month, but I really love it. I listen
to it every week. It's a great way to break
up the work day. It gives me a little bit
of joy in an otherwise boring work day. So thank
you guys for that. Your podcast is just kind of
really chill and fun and I love listening to you
guys talk. You guys are very knowledgeable and funny, and
it sounds like listening to two old friends sit around
and talk and laugh and it just gives you a
really good feeling. So I really love your podcast, so
keep doing what you're doing. So I've chosen your Bill
and Ted episodes, both of them, because I have to
talk about all three movies, and yeah, I just love
those movies so much. They're near and dear to my heart.
I got into Excellent Adventure when I was about fifteen sixteen,
which was two thousand and five, two thousand and six,
so kind of way after the movies came out, but
they're still nostalgic to me and remind me of being
a teenager. I love them so much. I've made my
friend in high school dress up as Bill me as
Ted because that's how much I love the movies, and
still one of my favorite Halloween costumes of all time.
I don't know how I'm gonna pick. It's impossible to
rank these movies because they're all so good. I love
them so much. Excellent Adventure, obviously, is where we meet
Bill and Ted, and you meet these two lovable characters
who are just pure fun and they're sweet and they're
nice and they just want to have a good time.
They're not like those typical rebellious rage against the machine,
range against the man rocker dudes. They just want to
have a good time. They want to make music. They're vibing,
they're chilling, they're just living their life, and they also
have to save the world, so I guess there's a
little bit of conflict there, and it's just a fun time.
And then you have Bogus Journey, which to me, I think,
while it is a complete departure from Excellent Adventure, I
think they take the formula from Excellent Adventure change it
into something completely different while also remaining true to them,
which I don't know if that makes any sense, And
I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion, but
I do love Bogus Journey. I love William Sadler as Death.
He is absolutely hilarious. And I also love God gave
rock and roll to you, one of the greatest songs
and forever will remind me of Bill and Ted. And
then you have Faced the Music, which honestly I think
is fun, nostalgic. It was a good throwback. It was
completely for the fans, and I think it was a
great way to close off the trilogy. I think Alex
Winter and Keanu Reeves did an amazing job and they
just brought Bill and Ted back to life while finally
closing off their story in a satisfactory way. And I
just loved it. And that's it. I mean. As for
my ranking, I think I can only rank them in
the way they came out as one, two, and three.
But they're all so good and it really is truly
impossible to rank them. But yeah, I guess the only
appropriate way to end this is to say, be excellent
to each other and party on. Dudes. Thank you guys
for everything you do. I can't wait to listen to more.
Speaker 1: Okay, awesome, I love it.
Speaker 4: I love that's she called us fun and chill.
Speaker 1: I'd like fun, I like chill, I like being described
as such.
Speaker 3: It is good.
Speaker 1: We really really appreciate the warm words that you had
for us.
Speaker 2: Addie. Thank you very much.
Speaker 4: I think it's awesome that somebody is so young likes
these eighties and nineties movies that we love.
Speaker 1: I know it sounds like she was born in like
the late eighties and still is digging on the stuff
that we grew up with. It's totally awesome.
Speaker 4: I know it's fantastic.
Speaker 7: Addie.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
Speaker 4: We love hearing from you. Looking forward to interacting with
you in the future.
Speaker 1: And guys, if you want to be an executive producer
like Addie, be sure and check out our Patreon page.
It's patreon dot com. Slash Shirley Podcast. You can be
a Patreon member for as little as five bucks a
month and get some maybe cool prizes if you go
up from there. So definitely check that out. Thanks Addie.
All right, let's get back to it.
Speaker 4: So, Yes, William H. Bonnie actually lived, Jose Chavez, real
person Joside, Doc Scurlock, real person, Charlie Bowdrey, Dirty Steve
even was a real person with a real name.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 4: Okay, So when Billy arrives in Lincoln County, the Murphy
Dolan store is the most powerful thing.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 4: They actually have a deal with the army. Remember this
is or just after the Civil War and they are
running every So Tunstallomic's wing came to town to put
them out of business. Guess what, that's not gonna be
very popular.
Speaker 3: Let off fly around here, get read.
Speaker 4: Yes, So, like the movie, Murphy Dolan assassinated John Tunstall.
Speaker 3: Yeah, New Year's Day, New Year's Day.
Speaker 4: And the group of young men. It's not this father
son relationship, right, or even teacher student relationship.
Speaker 2: Right, it's boss and regulators regularly. I mean they were
already the regulators.
Speaker 7: Yes, we worked for mister Tunstall as regulators. We regulate
any stealing of his property. We're damn good too. Mister
Tunstell's got a soft spot for runaways. There looks vagrant types,
but you can't be any geek off the street. Gotta
be handy with the steel, if you know what I mean,
or you keep.
Speaker 2: It's just after that happened, they became the deputized regulators, got.
Speaker 4: To be handy with the steel, if you know what
I mean.
Speaker 2: I can't wait to talk about that line.
Speaker 4: I know we can. So after his death, the regulators
got warrants and instead of like arresting people, they used
it as like hunting licenses, like yeah, we're.
Speaker 2: Gonna go kill these guys, and speaking about historical accuracy,
Dick Brewer was really like, no, we need to arrest
these guys.
Speaker 3: We don't need to just gun him down.
Speaker 2: And Billy and basically everybody else was like, nope, we're
taking these guys out.
Speaker 3: They killed our boss. We're taking them out.
Speaker 4: That great scene in Young Guns where they catch Baker
and Martin, they actually capture them at the at the
river Benda. We don't really know exactly what happened at
that moment. Three guys ended up dead.
Speaker 2: Baker yep.
Speaker 4: McCloskey yeah, and Martin.
Speaker 2: Right, And McCloskey was the guy who had been deputized
with him as one of the regulators. But Billy, we
don't know what happened. But in the movie, Billy says
he's a trader. I know, he's a trader with the
Murphy Dolan gang. Oh yeah, and you see him, you know,
shoot the guy in the forehead point blank. It's pretty
it's intense too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's all that.
Speaker 4: That's not what you did. Yeah, what do you do?
Speaker 1: What do you do?
Speaker 4: He knows what he did that scene when he blows
that guy at the back of his head up right. Yeah,
they used a little squib yeah, and ground hamburger meat
gruesome murder. Yes, And so later on in the movie
when Alex McSween gets shot, they don't use any squibs
because they're afraid it is gonna be rated r.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, worse, Yeah, like they were. There was
so much blood that they thought they were not going
to get any no kids watching this movie.
Speaker 4: Okay, So over to Tombstone, over Tombstone.
Speaker 7: And hell's come on with me, Hell coming.
Speaker 2: With me over to Tombstone. So again we've got I'll
start with our writer again, because from what I've read,
he is really the guy behind why this movie was
so good. Okay, he's his name's Kevin Jarry. He started
out as an actor on like Flipper, like as a kid. Really, yeah,
he was one of the actors on Flipper. But he
was totally into Old West and Civil War history, huge
historical you know, just dove into that, and so he
decided to start writing things. And one of the first things,
one of the first screenwriting jobs that he has is
with a movie that you and I both have talked
about before. Okay, Rambo First Blood Part two. Oh yeah,
but Rambo, Right, But when we talked about it, it
wasn't Kevin Jarry who had written it. It was yeah,
it was James Cameron exactly. And so I was like,
what okay. And then even when I had read about
James Cameron's script, Sylvester Stallone was like, yeah, no, none
of that was actually James Cameron stuff. I pretty much
did all of that. So it sounds like Kevin Jarry
wrote something, and then James Cameron tried to make that better.
And then Sylvester Stallone said this is still crap and
readd the whole thing anyway.
Speaker 4: That's kind of his mo o.
Speaker 2: But yes, yeah, But interestingly, the director on Rambo First
Blood Part two, yes is George Cosmotos. Yes, who will
come up here in just a little.
Speaker 4: Bit, right, right, So who directed Tombstone?
Speaker 2: That's a good question.
Speaker 4: That is a good question.
Speaker 3: We will get to that in just a minute.
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay. So Kevin Jari then does another script for
this movie called Glory, which ends up being a huge
success historically accurate and a huge success. It's like the
breakout movie for Denzel Washington. It made Matthew Broderick a
real actor instead of just one of the kid actors.
I mean, it was really well received. And so he's
kind of riding that ladder up. And so he's like, Okay,
the next movie I want to do is Dracula.
Speaker 4: Really yeah?
Speaker 2: What? Yeah?
Speaker 3: He's like, I really want to get it right.
Speaker 2: I want to get as much historically accurate as I can.
And so he's like he's diving into the history of
flat Dampaler, He's going to transylvan. He spends years developing
the script, and I think think he meets Winona writer
at some point he's like, hey, I think you'd be
great in this movie that I'm writing right now about Dracula.
WHOA And she's like, oh, that sounds great. And then
later on she says something to Francis Ford Coppola, who's like, oh, no, no,
he'll be in that one, being the one that I'm making.
Oh and so they and this is something that happens
a lot in Hollywood. They will make two movies about
the same event at the same time, and it's really
a race to the box office.
Speaker 3: Does that sound familiar right now?
Speaker 4: Yeah? It absolutely happened with Tombstone.
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. We had Tombstone come out and then what
like six months later, Whyetarup came out?
Speaker 4: Yeah, whyet arb with Kevin Costner and Dennis Quaid as
Doc Hollywood.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Doc Hollywood, Doc, Doc Hollywood is agreed movie.
Speaker 4: I can't believe.
Speaker 2: It's what Michael Jus performances. I think I liked it
best when he said, you're a daisy if.
Speaker 4: You do Doc Holliday, Yeah, thank you very much. So
what podcast am I on here?
Speaker 2: And so he is devastated, right like the Francis Ford
Coppola is making Dracula, and basically the studio says sorry,
we're pulling the play. I mean he was in like
Middle Europe at the time doing research and I like
to pulling the plug. And so, like.
Speaker 3: Years of his time down the dream suck.
Speaker 2: So he comes back devastated, but he rallies and says, Okay,
I'm gonna do an Old West script. That's what I
want to do right, and I.
Speaker 3: Want to do it right.
Speaker 2: I want to get it historically accurate. And so he
enlists the help of a guy named Jeff Moray and
another guy named Jim Dunham. All Right, He's like, I
want to get this as close to right as I can,
and again spends months years getting this script developed. And
while he's talking, Jim Dunham says to him, he says, Hey,
I don't know if you've read the Walter noble Burns
book called Tombstone, but if you're gonna cover the confrontation
scene between Doc Holliday and Johnny Ringo, be sure to
use the line I'm your huckleberry. That's my game.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 2: So that line came from the book Tombstone by Walter
noble Burns.
Speaker 4: Interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So then later Kevin asked Jeff, He's like, you know,
I'm trying to find the motivation on these guys. I
can get the facts, but I'm not sure about the motivation.
And I can't figure out why Wyatt liked Doc. And
Jeff said, I think it's because he made him laugh.
Speaker 4: I think that's genius. Oh yeah, the Alchemist's performance is
Doc Howell? Would they as Doc Holliday is phenomenal? Why
whatever do you mean?
Speaker 7: Maybe Pops is not your game laughter?
Speaker 2: I know, let's have a spelling contest.
Speaker 4: And he's hilarious.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yes, I mean he makes you laugh. He's saying
things in this deadband way without his and he's hysterical.
Speaker 4: If you haven't seen have you seen the documentary called
val I haven't seen it yet. Oh it's fantastic. And
in fact, I went back after watching that documentary, I
watched Tombstone and the Doors and Top Gun. Oh yeah,
his range is amazing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a tragedy.
Speaker 2: So another guy who's of importance, this is this is
some good stuff here that you remember the character Texas
Jack Vermilion. He's the guy with like the longer hair
when the Yeah. Okay, so that actor's name is Peter Shariko. Okay,
but he's also a Western historian, like they stuck him
in this part, but really he's more he's more behind
the scenes kind of guy. And so his job was
to get the guns for all of the characters. And so,
like they because of what happened with Dracula, Kevin Jarry
didn't want anybody to know what kind of script he
was working on because he didn't want anybody to come
in and steal.
Speaker 3: It out from under him.
Speaker 4: Again like Kevin Costner.
Speaker 2: Exactly, okay, and so he's like keeping things secret, but
he has to, you know, get things from different people.
He's looking for guns in the situation, and finally he
gives Peter Shirako an idea of that they're making a
movie about the shootout at the OK Corral right Oka.
He's like, I need the guns for these guys, and
he's like, okay, no problem. I know that Doc Holliday
carried a seven and a half inch colt and Kevin
Jarr's like, uh.
Speaker 3: No, it's too big.
Speaker 2: He's like, what I thought you said you want to
be historically actor. He goes, I do, but I also
wanted to be able to twirl the gun a little bit,
and that's too big right, and he's like, okay, well
that was also Ringo's gun.
Speaker 3: He's like, oh yeah, I want Ringo to do a
lot of twirling.
Speaker 2: So can you change both of those two like a
four and a three quarter inch or something like that.
Speaker 3: He's like, all right, fine, as what we do.
Speaker 2: And so that's what they end up with is the
shorter guns they can do their fancy twirling right. And
then it happens again like he's like, okay, well, what
gun is Sheriff bi Han going to have. He's like, listen,
he was a dapper guy. I think that probably he's
going to get the most recent gun that's out there
for sheriffs at the time, since he's a sheriff and
there was.
Speaker 3: This four sheriff's model.
Speaker 2: And Jerry again says, no, I want him to have
like a dainty gun.
Speaker 3: I want like those tiny guns. He's like fine.
Speaker 2: So he goes to this place in Orange County called
Little John's, which has the old West guns, you know,
like the high end guns that you can get, and
the guy John that Little John's John is like, hey,
we got we've got an auction coming up. You should
check it out. I think there'd be some stuff you'd
be interested in. He's like okay, He's like, here's the catalog.
He starts flipping through the catalog. They have the original
be hand gun, Like the actual gun that Sheriff Behn
owned is coming up for auction and it's the exact
model that Peter Sireko was trying to convince Kevin Jarr
to use. So he's like, I need to take this,
and he drives all the way back to Jarr's house
and he just holds it open for him in front
of him, and Jarr's like, okay, we can use that gun.
Speaker 4: Wow, that's fantastic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, So who did We've touched it already. You
know who Kevin Jarry wanted to play wi at.
Speaker 4: Ar Kevin Costner. Yeah, that's what I mean, what happened
with that thing?
Speaker 2: Okay? So Costner had been in Silverado in eighty five,
which is I mean, you look at the eighties, there
are very few Western movies that are inequality, right, but
Silverado is one of them, and it was Kevin Costner's
breakout performance, right, and then obviously he ends up doing.
Speaker 3: Very well in the genre.
Speaker 4: Later on he moves on to baseball.
Speaker 2: Well, but I mean, he's still he's got open range,
he's got dances with wolves. I mean, it's he's good
at doing the cowboys stuff.
Speaker 4: He is doing. It's baseballs and cowboys.
Speaker 2: Cowboys reminds me when he shows up to one of
the producer's house, he's in the bomber jacket and the
baseball cap and it's supposed to be talking about a
wider script, and all he's got is a bottle of
Stowy vodka. He's like, please tell me, you guys have
some orange juice. And all he did was sit there
and make screw drivers all day. You scarved it all
sidebar anyway, So he calls up Kevin Costner, and there
are a lot of conflicting stories about how this actually
all played out, but the clear thing is that Kevin
Costner says, no, no, thank you. What we get from
both Kevin Costner and from Kevin Jarre is Kevin Costner
had already been working on a script. He had this
idea for like a big mini series about Wyatar's life,
and so he was like, I don't want to do this.
I want to do mine. Mine's good and yours is okay, right,
which he also said he didn't read it, so it
didn't really make any sense.
Speaker 3: But anyway, he's out.
Speaker 4: Before you move on from Kevin Costner, gohead. You know
what role Kevin Costner stole from Kurt Russell.
Speaker 2: Yes, we've talked about it in our previous episode on
Bulderham Versus Major League.
Speaker 4: I find that fascinating. Kurt Russell really wanted the part
of Crash Davis in Bull Durham, right, Kevin Costner took it, right.
Speaker 2: Kurt Russell was a professional baseball player, I know, I know,
and he did get the part.
Speaker 4: Kevin Costner was not the best player in his high
school team, right, and so you got to think that
there's some satisfaction Kurt Russell taking over this movie and
just killing Kevin Costner at the movie theater.
Speaker 2: Apparently it was Apparently on the set there were two
things you didn't talk about in front of Kurt Russell.
Speaker 3: One was machine Rain and the other was Kevin Costner.
Speaker 2: Really yeah, Now.
Speaker 4: They ended up doing two thousand miles to Graceland.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly how about that they made up?
Speaker 2: I guess you know, I became drinking buddies or whatever
would bury the hatchet. So Kevin Jari has written this epic, awesome,
historically accurate script and he is slated to direct.
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, so.
Speaker 4: This is interesting. We're getting into it now, right.
Speaker 2: So he's picking out people, right. One of the actors
that gets the script is a guy that we've talked
about also, Michael Bean. Yeah, and so he Michael Bean's like,
I would like to be Doc Holliday please because that
looks like an awesome part, right, And they're like, okay,
we'll let him know, and they're like, okay, Val.
Speaker 3: Kilmer is probably going to do that. When he's like, well, crap, okay,
I'm not.
Speaker 2: A wait the guy who Vlkilmer is against the guy
who Doc Hollidays against Johnny Ringo. Can I have that part?
Speaker 3: And they're like, yeah, again, you can have that part.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: So he meets with Kevin Jari and this is interesting.
Speaker 2: Kevin Jari tells him that, like, this is like a
piece that he's writing for his girlfriend.
Speaker 3: Lisa's ayt Like, He's like, I want her to.
Speaker 2: Be Josie her. She was in some movies with Rob
Low and James Spader. She was kind of, you know,
on the fringe of being somebody interesting. But he wanted
her to be play the part.
Speaker 3: Of Josie in this one.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So he tells that to Michael Bean. Michael Bean's like, yeah,
this is great. This guy's got passionate about the script.
I'm excited to be a part of it. And he
ends up writing to Tucson with Powers Booth and he says,
Powers Booth is hilarious. Just told stories the whole time,
told about how when they were shooting Extreme Prejudice he
lost the weekend with Nick Nolty. And when he says that,
he's like, I was. It was Friday afternoon. I was
going to his trailer to say bye, you know, have
a good weekend, bye bye, well bye, And he says
in the next thing that I knew it was Monday morning.
They were knocking on the trailer door and he was.
Speaker 3: Up ready to go to this film again.
Speaker 4: Why does that not surprise me at all?
Speaker 2: So Michael Bean arrives at the reading, right, they are
all there and tuson to do the reading together. He's
pretty much the whole cast is there, and he says
he and Bell Kilmer are sizing each other up from.
Speaker 3: The get go, right, Yeah, but he says, I.
Speaker 2: Had not taken the time, or I hadn't found the
time to learn the correct pronunciation of the Latin, right,
he said, Val not only knew how to pronounce it,
he knew what it all meant. Ah, And he was like, yeah,
I'm losing this battle. And like as soon as he
has that thought, somebody projectile vomits all over the table.
Speaker 3: And reading it's over.
Speaker 2: He's like, okay, I got some time to catch up here.
So at the beginning, Kurt Russell is saying, hey, this
is a great script, but it's too long. We need
to cut twenty pages of this, and Kevin Jarry was like, no,
we're not going to cut it.
Speaker 3: I've got this. This is my dream piece, this is
my whole life.
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna let this happen, right, And what ends
up happening is Kevin Jarry is making like this john
Ford esque super long, stately and slow, old kind of
western right, and it sucks. Yeah, he's doing these long
shots and I mean not only long in time, but
like far away, so you don't have coverage, you can't
do good. You don't have your editing options to do this,
and so that's frustrating the producers. And then he is
being like My Way or the Highway to everybody, cast
and crew, and he's a first time director. This is
the first movie he's ever directed, and he's.
Speaker 4: Like, Kurt Russell, shut up, shut up, you can go
to him.
Speaker 2: You think sorry. After like four weeks, everybody is despising
Kevin Jarry, and Michael Bean says, like, four weeks in,
I pull into my trailer. I'm like, listen, dude, Filmmaking
is a collaborative art, right, you can't just not listen
to everybody. But he said it was too late, fired
him on Friday, and so the last thing that he
sees is Kevin Jari with like this soul crushing look
on his face in the hotel with his bags packed
out the door.
Speaker 4: Oh man, that's fascinating, though I've never heard that story.
Speaker 2: So your original question, who directed it? Well, once this
is done, they don't even know if the movie's going
to keep going or not. Right, they've been shooting for
four weeks. They decide they're not going to use any
of Kevin Jarr's shots. They're going to start basically over
from scratch, and so Kurt Russell and one of the
producers named Jim Jacks, they get together and start working
on the script, and they cut out the twenty pages.
Speaker 3: And Kurt Russell has said, what.
Speaker 2: I did to maintain the script and still cut out
these huge chunks was to cut my own part.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 2: But like Robert Burke, he was fifth built, like he
was built above Paxon and Sam Elliott. What. Yeah, but
you don't hear any lines from him because they cut
all of those parts, and so that became a little
bit strange. They brought in the guy we talked about
a little while ago, George Kaus Mottos, Huh, Well, people
just said he was a jackass, like he was overbearing.
They actually had to pay, like the studio had to
pay forty thousand dollars in fines because of his abusive conduct.
Michael Bean said he saw he saw this happen, like
when they were shooting the opening wedding party scene. Yes,
because Mottos says to one of the Hispanic extras standing
next to Michael Bean, tell that Mexican with the big
tis to take two steps forward.
Speaker 4: This guy got in trouble.
Speaker 2: What are you talking about, right? Yeah, And he says
what has been said that is true is that he
didn't really direct this. Michael Bean said, he had said
three words to the guy. He said hello to him
at the beginning and at the end he said off
like it was not a good relationship that this guy
had with the cast. But Kurt Russell was really the
guy doing this stuff. If you look at the Wikipedia page,
you're not going to get this information.
Speaker 3: What you're going to get.
Speaker 2: From Wikipedia was I'm quoting here the new director brought
a demanding and hard nosed sensibility.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, he didn't.
Speaker 4: This is fascinating.
Speaker 3: He was a jerk.
Speaker 4: I really wanted you to say that, Michael Bean. His
last two words were well back.
Speaker 2: So when posed with the question of Michael Bean, he
was like, did Kurt Russell really direct this? And Michael
Bean said, well, he indirect me, And I don't mean
that insensitively.
Speaker 3: I'm not saying he's a bad guy.
Speaker 2: The film wouldn't have happened but for him getting involved
and taking over and leading, right, he said, But he
understood that we were all quality actors and he let
us do our job, and that's how this movie got made.
Speaker 4: Cast of Tombstone is really I mean.
Speaker 3: Super strong, it's top notch.
Speaker 4: I mean, you got Kurt Russell, you got Val Kilmer,
You've got Powers Booth and Michael Bean. You've got Dana Delaney.
You've got Stephen Lange, underrated bad.
Speaker 2: Guy, Bill Paxson, Sam Elliott, Charlton Heston, Charlton Heston, Charlton
freaking Hasten. Oh, Johnny Ringo had a scene with Charlton
Helston's character Henry Huker, but it was filmed by Kevin Jari,
so they had to cut it.
Speaker 4: Well, I got some names for you, okay. So the
cast is phenomenal, right, I mean the brothers, I mean
Kurt Russell, Bill Paxon, Sam Elliott. I mean I believe
that those guys would walk down and club me with
the heel of their gun. You know, absolutely all right.
So one of the original thoughts about casting Doc Holliday. Yeah,
William Dafoe, that an entire how about that? You know
why he didn't get no? Because Buena Vista was too
scared because he had just kind of recently been in
Last Temptation of Christ. For those of you who hasn't
seen that or don't remember that, that was very controversial
movie about the life of Jesus. Right, Mickey Rourke was
discussed to play Johnny Ringo. Okay, at that time I
could see it. Maybe Robert Mitcham was supposed to be
old Man Clinton, like the Robert Mitcham.
Speaker 2: Right, well, Robert Mitcham was the one that had done
the narrating, right well, yeah, it was that was him
narrating the beginning.
Speaker 4: The reason why he's the narrator and not in it
is because he told off the horse and broke his back.
Speaker 2: Oh gosh.
Speaker 4: H And also longtime Western actor Glenn Ford was supposed
to be Marshall White.
Speaker 2: Hmmm.
Speaker 4: I mean, you talk about Rob Mitcham and Glenn Ford
and Charlton heston the cast, freaking unbelievable. But I wanted
to point out Michael Bean and Bill Paxton had been
in the Lords of Discipline together. Yeah, and they had
also been in Terminator.
Speaker 2: This is I'm gonna tell this story now. This is
actually the fifth movie that they were in together. Fifth, yeah,
he said. But Michael Bean said it was weird. They
would faction off like the Irpsy. The actors playing the
IRPs would go do their own thing, and the actors
playing the cowboys would go do their own They they
formed their own clicks. He's like, I've been in this
five movies with Bill Paxson and we barely spoke the
entire time, Like we had dinner one night and ended
it early.
Speaker 4: That's crazy, man, that's crazy.
Speaker 2: But I mean I can see it, like the I
can see the camaraderie of the Cowboys.
Speaker 3: I can see the brotherly love of the IRPs. That
something to it, you know, hang out.
Speaker 2: With the people that you're supposed to be close with
in the movie to create that yond.
Speaker 4: It's kind of like the Greasers and the Soshi, right,
the Jets and the Shark. So those five movies are
Lords of Discipline, Yeah, Terminator, Yeah, Aliens splashback to her
Aliens episode, Yeah, Navy Seals and Tombstone yeah boom. All right,
you ready talk cast on young Guns.
Speaker 2: So before we move on to the casting of young
Guns and Young Guns too, I got a couple of
interesting cast members for you. Are you ready for this?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the part of Billy Claiborne in Tombstone played
by Wyatt Earth the Third. And I know you don't
know this because I asked you beforehand, Ed Ed Bailey
the guy at the beginning, Yes, why Ed? Does this
mean we are not friends. Yeah, played by mister frank Stallone.
Speaker 4: I did not even recognize him.
Speaker 2: I know, right.
Speaker 3: I saw that and I was like, who was frank
Stallone in this?
Speaker 2: And I'm like him, I'm like, oh my gosh, if you,
you know, take away the feathered hair and you stick
a mustache on.
Speaker 4: But yeah, when you sus you said that, I'm like,
absolutely in a great part.
Speaker 3: This is a great job.
Speaker 5: Que the More than Over music or Frank Stallone.
Speaker 2: All right, that's all I got.
Speaker 3: That's all I got on a cast, so we can
keep going.
Speaker 4: All right.
Speaker 2: I will have to say, it's interesting that we just
did that and we did not talk about Dana Delaney
at all.
Speaker 4: Let's hey, okay, let's talk about Dan Lane.
Speaker 2: Okay. Now, remember this part was supposed to go to
Kevin Jerry's girlfriend Lisa's name. Obviously that didn't happen. They
mixed that idea.
Speaker 4: Okay, you have Kurt Russell, Val Kilmer, Charlton Asta, Yeah,
Stephen Lane, Powers Booth, Michael Ban, Bill Pass. The cast
was outstanding. What do you think about Dan Delaney?
Speaker 2: So what i I'm I'm reading, I'm going back to
when I texted you. Okay, So so last night at
I'm sorry. This morning at two of five am, I
texted you, I'm really thankful for the love story parts
of Tombstone, so that I know when I can get
up to leave and get something to eat or look
up something on IMDb. Awful.
Speaker 4: The love story I told you is really an anchor
around the neck of Tombstone.
Speaker 3: It really is.
Speaker 4: It doesn't sink the movie, but it drags. I don't
think they have any chemistry at all.
Speaker 2: I'm in the I'm in the kitchen microwaving, and I'm like, better, look,
it's still not over. I got I got out on
her stage performance. I got out on the accidental meeting
as they're riding horses.
Speaker 4: So I saved myself the agony of that. By the way,
we forgot to mention Billy zaying yeah, and Jason Priestley Jason.
Speaker 3: Priestley what, Yeah, So Jason Priestley, there's something there. I'm
gonna touch that real quick since she s brought it up.
Speaker 2: So Jason Priestley was friends with the cowboys and had
gotten deputized by the sheriff right right, Well, his character
is Billy Breckinridge. Billy Breckinridge wrote a book about white art,
and it was not a flattering book like it was
the other side, and his widow did everything she could
to stop it, but it became one of the most
famous books about Wyatt Arp and it was not a
rosy colored picture of him. Woo yeah wow.
Speaker 4: Back to Dana Delaney, Yes, sorry, okay, they gave us
nothing with her. You and I talked.
Speaker 2: About there's no passion at all in this thing, no
passion at all. And you've got a little bit of
like sexiness when she's in there taking the photograph.
Speaker 4: Is there sexiness?
Speaker 2: You have a little bit of an attempt at sexiness
whenever she's in there taking the photograph right before the
shootout at the OK Corral.
Speaker 4: Which let's just talk about. Yeah, to me, that was
very interesting that actually happened.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, Like she's in that dark lacy thing. Yes,
you sent me a picture today.
Speaker 4: You can look it up on the internet. Yes, you
get better look of Josie Erp than you do Dan
de Delaney, absolutely, And Josie Rp was bringing the heat
back then many a woman.
Speaker 3: I can see why he was like distracted, was sure, yeah, sure.
Speaker 4: So Dana Delaney can be sexy in this movie so
much nothing now nothing.
Speaker 2: Okay, guys, we're gonna have to stop now. We will
come back next week for part two of Tombstone Versus
Young Guns one and two. Be sure to tune in
hit your subscribe button so that you don't miss the
episode when it comes out on Tuesday, where we get
into some of the coolest facts behind each business.
Speaker 4: When we come back, Hell's coming with us. You don't
help come in with me.