WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.200 The black rocks of the world don't make bad bets, 2 00:00:02.240 --> 00:00:04.879 like they understand, they do an incredible amount of due diligence. 3 00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:07.040 So it's nice to kind of see them endorsing the 4 00:00:07.160 --> 00:00:09.480 technology in this way, like it will just get to 5 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:12.080 a point where I go to my brokerage account, I 6 00:00:12.160 --> 00:00:14.800 buy eth and in the background it's automatically staken and 7 00:00:14.880 --> 00:00:15.400 it's a given. 8 00:00:15.679 --> 00:00:18.920 So do you see eight continuing to hold that mantle 9 00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:22.359 of being let's say, the top enterprise blockchain. Oh? 10 00:00:22.399 --> 00:00:24.039 Absolutely, I think there's no doubt. 11 00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:27.440 Etherium has kind of two key selling points like security 12 00:00:27.480 --> 00:00:33.960 one hundred percent of time, and then like you mentioned, liquidity. 13 00:00:35.799 --> 00:00:38.000 This episode is brought to you by Proppy, which is 14 00:00:38.079 --> 00:00:41.640 leading the charge in putting real estate on chain. Propy 15 00:00:41.759 --> 00:00:44.200 is a game changer. You can buy and sell real 16 00:00:44.280 --> 00:00:48.359 estate with cryptocurrencies using the Property platform, which is powered 17 00:00:48.399 --> 00:00:51.039 by a blockchain, of course, and they have a native 18 00:00:51.079 --> 00:00:54.240 token call pro And I've been an investor in the 19 00:00:54.399 --> 00:00:57.840 Propy token since twenty eighteen. So Propy is a licensed 20 00:00:57.840 --> 00:01:01.719 Web three pioneer operating since twenty seven They have facilitated 21 00:01:01.759 --> 00:01:05.439 over four billion dollars in transactions. They're putting titles and 22 00:01:05.480 --> 00:01:09.159 deeds on chain. They use Coinbase for their crypto escro service, 23 00:01:09.519 --> 00:01:12.239 so this is a great platform and once again they 24 00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:14.079 are ahead of the curve when it comes to putting 25 00:01:14.120 --> 00:01:16.799 real estate on chain. And they just launch a great 26 00:01:16.799 --> 00:01:19.519 campaign where you can earn some of the Propy tokens 27 00:01:19.959 --> 00:01:23.159 and it's simply by doing tasks such as sharing their 28 00:01:23.239 --> 00:01:26.560 vision video, signing up and inviting a friend, and much 29 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:29.120 more so. If you'd like to learn more about Propy, 30 00:01:29.319 --> 00:01:32.879 visit the link in the description. Hey, folks, welcome into 31 00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:35.640 the Thinking Crypto Podcast. I'm your host, Tony Edward and 32 00:01:35.760 --> 00:01:38.400 joining me today is Keen Gilbert, who is the head 33 00:01:38.439 --> 00:01:43.560 of institutional Relations at the Loto Ecosystem Foundation. Keen, great 34 00:01:43.560 --> 00:01:43.840 to have. 35 00:01:43.879 --> 00:01:46.159 You, Ay, thanks so much for having me. It's great 36 00:01:46.200 --> 00:01:46.959 to connect. 37 00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:50.239 Absolutely, Keen. I think it's very timely that we're speaking. 38 00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:52.319 There's a lot of demand for etherorem, a lot of 39 00:01:52.319 --> 00:01:55.480 demand for etherorem staking and Loto is playing a big 40 00:01:55.519 --> 00:01:59.359 part in the staking aspect for etherorem. And then recently 41 00:01:59.400 --> 00:02:02.840 the SEC gave some clarity around liquid staking. So I 42 00:02:02.879 --> 00:02:05.000 got a lot of questions for you, But let's kick 43 00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:06.680 it off with your background. Tell us a bit about 44 00:02:06.680 --> 00:02:08.199 yourself and your professional background. 45 00:02:08.719 --> 00:02:10.520 Sure, yeah so ours boy. 46 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:13.120 I kind of grew up in Dublin like business background, 47 00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:16.400 did marketing management consultancy. From a professional point of view, 48 00:02:16.479 --> 00:02:18.919 I started my career in Deloitte doing like FS capital 49 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:21.840 markets consulting on crypto so I did that for around 50 00:02:21.840 --> 00:02:26.759 a year. After my time time in Deloitte, I joined Consensus. 51 00:02:26.840 --> 00:02:29.000 I was in Consensus for around five and a half years, 52 00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:33.879 mainly working on like meta mask institutional and fur staking tokenization, 53 00:02:34.360 --> 00:02:36.080 like a number of different products, so I kind of 54 00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:39.280 got good exposure there. After my time in Consensus, I 55 00:02:39.319 --> 00:02:41.280 joined a small startup for a while that was doing 56 00:02:41.280 --> 00:02:44.520 like portfolio and risk management for crypto funds. And now 57 00:02:44.560 --> 00:02:47.319 currently I'm at Liido for just over a year, so 58 00:02:47.319 --> 00:02:49.719 I'm head of institutional relations and I would look after 59 00:02:50.280 --> 00:02:52.360 and a lot of institutional clients. So by that I 60 00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:55.840 mean different crypto funds, asset managers, hedge funds, like really 61 00:02:55.879 --> 00:02:58.400 anyone who has a significant mental eat and we had 62 00:02:58.439 --> 00:03:00.360 obviously encouraged them to take it with a love for 63 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:02.800 the added benefits of liquidity and capital efficiency. 64 00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:06.800 Very cool and at your time at Deloitte, what was 65 00:03:06.840 --> 00:03:09.840 your first encounter with crypto. Was it Deloitte? You know, 66 00:03:10.280 --> 00:03:13.000 were they researching this technology and then you kind of 67 00:03:13.039 --> 00:03:15.039 got into it or did you find out about it 68 00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:17.000 outside while at Deloitte? 69 00:03:17.599 --> 00:03:19.479 Yeah, it was kind of an interesting one. So in 70 00:03:19.560 --> 00:03:22.159 college when I was doing my master's in consultancy, we 71 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:25.240 had to do a consulting project and my client was Deloitte, 72 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:28.360 So that was kind of my first I suppose aha 73 00:03:28.360 --> 00:03:30.919 a moment for crypto and blockchain. So we did the 74 00:03:30.960 --> 00:03:33.439 consulting project for deloittte and this would have been I 75 00:03:33.479 --> 00:03:37.240 think twenty seventeen, so the technology would have been quite nascent, 76 00:03:37.719 --> 00:03:39.639 So all the work that Deloitte was doing at that 77 00:03:39.639 --> 00:03:43.039 time was very educational based, like just getting people to 78 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:45.919 understand that like blockchain and bitcoin wasn't the same thing. 79 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:49.960 One is the technology and the other's use case. So yeah, 80 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:52.000 college would have been the main dip to kind of 81 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:54.479 getting into that kind of crypto part. After that, a 82 00:03:54.479 --> 00:03:57.159 lot of the proof of concept based, so nothing was 83 00:03:57.159 --> 00:03:59.479 really going into production at that point. You were doing 84 00:03:59.520 --> 00:04:01.879 a lot of use cases around like trade finance, which 85 00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:05.039 is quite popular, and eating from a process and improvement 86 00:04:05.080 --> 00:04:09.199 point of view around smart contracts and fast forward kind 87 00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:11.560 of ten years later, nothing really goes down that proof 88 00:04:11.599 --> 00:04:13.800 of concept rabbit hole. It's all straight into productions with 89 00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:15.479 people that bought into the idea. 90 00:04:15.680 --> 00:04:18.920 It's amazing to see the amount of adoption taking place 91 00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:22.800 of blockchain technology and the crypto acid class. You have 92 00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:26.399 almost all of tradify here, the banks, the stock exchanges, 93 00:04:26.519 --> 00:04:30.680 the payment companies, they're all here. What does it mean 94 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:32.160 to you or you know, how do you see that 95 00:04:32.279 --> 00:04:34.959 with all these folks coming in? Is it just you 96 00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:38.680 can't ignore this technology? This is the future pretty much? 97 00:04:38.759 --> 00:04:41.680 Yeah, Like it's just been insane that it's kind of 98 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:44.560 been this almost light switch moment. I felt like for 99 00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:47.160 a long time we were talking about institutions coming and 100 00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:50.360 regulations coming, and now it finally feels like it's arrived. 101 00:04:51.040 --> 00:04:53.800 And so the starting pistol has sounded in my mind, like, 102 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:56.240 by no means do I think we're kind of nearing 103 00:04:56.240 --> 00:04:57.600 the end of the race. It just feels like the 104 00:04:57.680 --> 00:04:59.560 race is starting, and I'm quite fortunate I'm in New 105 00:04:59.639 --> 00:05:02.560 York this week, like the financial powerhouse of the world. 106 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:06.079 And when you meet with the likes of black Rock, Fidelity, 107 00:05:06.079 --> 00:05:09.160 Franklin Templeton, like you understand that they're taking this technology 108 00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:12.959 incredibly seriously and they're making these big investments. And my 109 00:05:13.079 --> 00:05:15.279 view in these things is like the black Rocks of 110 00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:17.600 the world don't make bad bets, like they understand, they 111 00:05:17.639 --> 00:05:20.199 do an incredible amount of due diligence. So it's nice 112 00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:22.639 to kind of see them endorsing the technology in this way. 113 00:05:23.800 --> 00:05:28.560 Yeah. Absolutely, So give us an overview of lido. What islido, 114 00:05:28.920 --> 00:05:30.720 your mission, your services, and much. 115 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:31.959 More for your listeners. 116 00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:34.160 You can think of Lido as a liquid staking protocol, 117 00:05:34.920 --> 00:05:37.040 and there's effectively kind of different levels. I would say 118 00:05:37.040 --> 00:05:38.680 the one that's most common are the one that gets 119 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:40.959 the most amount of attention right now is native staking, 120 00:05:41.519 --> 00:05:44.279 so effectively with ethereum as the proof of state blockchain. 121 00:05:44.360 --> 00:05:46.279 So what that means is you take your eath, you 122 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:49.279 secure it in the network, and as a reward for 123 00:05:49.399 --> 00:05:52.040 taking your eath securing in the network, you're given rewards. 124 00:05:52.439 --> 00:05:54.560 So I believe the rewards rate right now is around 125 00:05:54.600 --> 00:05:58.319 three percent. The issue with native staking is that you're 126 00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:01.680 basically taking your capital in the form of eath, you're 127 00:06:01.720 --> 00:06:04.959 locking it away, So from a capital efficiency perspective, that's 128 00:06:05.040 --> 00:06:07.519 not terrific or it's not ideal. I suppose then the 129 00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:10.199 whole selling point of LIDO and liquid staking is we're 130 00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:13.360 solving that problem. So the whole process with LIDO is 131 00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:15.279 basically you would take your eth, you would go to 132 00:06:15.399 --> 00:06:18.800 the DApp take your eath, stake it, and in return 133 00:06:18.879 --> 00:06:21.959 you're giving steeth or st eth in return. And you 134 00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:24.920 can think of Steith as a certificate of deposit, and 135 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:28.600 that certificate basically represents two things, the east you've just 136 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:32.279 staked and your staking rewards. What's really cool about Steith 137 00:06:32.399 --> 00:06:35.000 is effectively the network effects of it. So you can 138 00:06:35.079 --> 00:06:38.920 take Steith, use it as collateral, deployed into defied generally yield. 139 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:43.000 But added benefit is that instant liquidity, so you can 140 00:06:43.079 --> 00:06:46.439 take that steeth and swap it into stables and that's 141 00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:48.519 the key selling point. For a lot of institutions. They 142 00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:51.079 don't want to be beholden to the withdraw queue. So 143 00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:53.120 I think the withdrawal queue right now from a native 144 00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:56.560 staking perspective is around two weeks, so it's only like, 145 00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:58.480 you know, like the market can change quite a lot 146 00:06:58.519 --> 00:07:01.000 in an hour, let alone two weeks. So for a 147 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:03.759 lot of institutions, they don't really want that exposure to time. 148 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:07.480 So again from liquids taking point of view. The ability 149 00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:10.360 to take steeth and go into stables is a tremendous 150 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:12.680 selling point for what Loido is and what Steeth is. 151 00:07:13.240 --> 00:07:15.759 Yeah. Absolutely, and you can put your capital to work 152 00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:17.839 and it's great to have that liquidity that you said 153 00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:20.519 in soil liquidity. So talk to us about the mechanics 154 00:07:20.680 --> 00:07:23.519 of how this is all set up. I'm assuming it's 155 00:07:23.600 --> 00:07:27.560 using smart contracts. How's the custody done and security and 156 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:29.319 all these things, because that's going to be a big 157 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:30.519 question for a lot of folks. 158 00:07:31.279 --> 00:07:33.720 Yeah, so I should say, Likelido is adeo so to 159 00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:37.319 centralized autonomous organization. So one of the cool things about 160 00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:40.519 loido is that really practice what it preaches. So it's 161 00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:44.560 all around decentralization. Solido is effectively a middleware. Nothing is 162 00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:48.480 actually staked with Laider directly. So there's over six hundred 163 00:07:48.519 --> 00:07:52.319 different note operators and operating with LODO today or true 164 00:07:52.399 --> 00:07:55.079 that's to middleware. So there's a couple of different elements 165 00:07:55.160 --> 00:07:57.279 to that, Like you would have what's called the curated set, 166 00:07:57.360 --> 00:07:59.959 so this is like professional note operators, so that would 167 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:03.240 be the p tops of the world, figments, kills, course ones. 168 00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:06.160 Then we also have a community staking module to again 169 00:08:06.319 --> 00:08:10.319 driving that decentralized element, Like there's a big focus WITHINLIDO 170 00:08:10.399 --> 00:08:12.800 and all the contributors that you want to make Etherium 171 00:08:12.839 --> 00:08:15.439 as decentralized as possible, because ultimately that was the goal 172 00:08:15.519 --> 00:08:17.879 of the technology from the very beginning. Again at a 173 00:08:17.959 --> 00:08:20.560 high level on like the setup and then from the 174 00:08:20.600 --> 00:08:22.519 custody point of view, this would come up quite a 175 00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:24.879 lot with the institutions that we deal with, so the 176 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:29.439 asset managers, liquid funds, metfissuers. From custody point of view, 177 00:08:29.480 --> 00:08:31.720 we've quite good coverage. So that would be the likes 178 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:35.799 of fire Blocks, Copper, cefu x Trust and the one 179 00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:40.000 that's most recently been announced is with Bitco. So I 180 00:08:40.039 --> 00:08:41.840 would say like when we go and speak to these 181 00:08:41.879 --> 00:08:45.759 different asset managers, like unless you have custody support, they're 182 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:49.440 very unlikely to go touch the asset because ultimately the 183 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:53.559 custodium provides a terrific service, especially on the of the 184 00:08:53.559 --> 00:08:56.919 structure side. So a big priority for me is making 185 00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:01.039 sure that steeth this institutional ecosystem added thindational level is 186 00:09:01.080 --> 00:09:06.200 supported with many different custodians, NPC, water providers and tech 187 00:09:06.240 --> 00:09:07.240 partners possible. 188 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:09.840 Yeah, that definitely makes sense. And custody is such a 189 00:09:09.879 --> 00:09:13.200 big aspect for trust and making sure assets are secure. 190 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:15.320 It's great to hear you're using some of the biggest 191 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:18.360 names in the industry like Bidgo and so forth. So 192 00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:21.759 on that note, you know, in pitching liquid staking and 193 00:09:21.840 --> 00:09:25.320 your services to institutions like black Rock, many of them 194 00:09:25.399 --> 00:09:28.919 are bullish on etherorem They have it in ETF format 195 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:31.559 there some our companies are holding it as a corporate 196 00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:34.519 treasury and then they want to earn that yield right 197 00:09:34.799 --> 00:09:37.279 from the staking rewards and so forth. How are you 198 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:40.399 pitching this to them? Are they open mind? Are they 199 00:09:40.440 --> 00:09:43.879 being open to the idea? I know some folks it's 200 00:09:43.960 --> 00:09:46.519 a matter of education, right and getting familiar with all 201 00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:49.799 these things. But how has it been pitching this service 202 00:09:49.879 --> 00:09:53.320 to those institutions. It's been quite good, Like you said, 203 00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:55.200 like education is a big part of this. Like at 204 00:09:55.200 --> 00:09:57.440 the end of the day, people are not going to 205 00:09:57.519 --> 00:10:00.919 engage with the technology or ease any the service unless 206 00:10:00.919 --> 00:10:03.600 they're comfortable with it. But maybe the kind of taking 207 00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:06.240 example you mentioned there, so like the ETF issuers, like 208 00:10:06.360 --> 00:10:08.679 there's obviously a huge amount of work happening behind the 209 00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:11.879 scenes with these issuers to get staking added to these products. 210 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:15.320 One of the key things that comes up quite a 211 00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:18.200 lot in the conversations that we're having is that what 212 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:22.039 will the staking rate be of these ETFs. So if 213 00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:24.399 you take kind of Europe as an example, so Europe 214 00:10:24.440 --> 00:10:27.039 has had staking in these products for quite a long time, 215 00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:29.840 and there's a number of quite successful ones like twenty 216 00:10:29.919 --> 00:10:32.879 one shares a bit wise to etc. Group, but the 217 00:10:32.919 --> 00:10:35.879 staking rate of these products tends to be at fifty percent, 218 00:10:36.639 --> 00:10:40.039 and the reason for that is again liquidity. So when 219 00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:44.080 a client wants to take money out of their ETP 220 00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:47.200 or ETF, it's typically operated on like a TA plus 221 00:10:47.240 --> 00:10:49.039 two basis, so they want to get their money backward 222 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:51.759 in two days. The issue when you have a natively 223 00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:55.159 staked ETP or an ETF is that it typically could 224 00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:58.200 take around two weeks. So from the issuers point of view, 225 00:10:58.279 --> 00:11:00.440 that's why they have to have a certain amount liquidity. 226 00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:03.600 And by liquidity, I mean unstaked eath. Back to your 227 00:11:03.639 --> 00:11:06.240 point around like what's the sales pitch. The sales pitch 228 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:06.879 for most would be. 229 00:11:06.919 --> 00:11:09.240 You could actually launch a one hundred percent stake product. 230 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:12.240 You can have a product that's now one hundred percent staked, 231 00:11:12.279 --> 00:11:14.919 which means you're getting the full three percent yield compared 232 00:11:14.960 --> 00:11:17.039 to say a fifty percent stake product where it's only 233 00:11:17.080 --> 00:11:20.200 getting one point five percent. So from the issuer's point 234 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:22.240 of view, that's obviously quite attractive. You can launch a 235 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:24.759 better product, and then from the investor's point of view, 236 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:28.000 you're getting higher returns and you're again getting a better product. 237 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:31.919 Is totality, that's really great and a huge incentive to 238 00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:34.360 your point. And then I'm assuming it would be very 239 00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:37.159 similar for if your treasury companies as well, if they 240 00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:39.200 want to do the same thing exactly. 241 00:11:39.399 --> 00:11:39.600 Yeah. 242 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:41.399 So I think one of the big reasons why the 243 00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:44.000 treasury companies have been such a popular topic right now 244 00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:47.120 is again because ETS still has staking yet. So I 245 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:49.519 think you have the likes of sharp Link Gaming and 246 00:11:49.600 --> 00:11:52.600 the trust Machine and the eath machine, like they're seeing 247 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:56.759 a significant amount of attention because ETS don stake, and 248 00:11:57.120 --> 00:11:59.159 I do think there is a world where both will 249 00:11:59.240 --> 00:12:02.000 kind of sit in parma low like these treasury codes 250 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:03.639 can be a lot more aggressive in terms of the 251 00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:07.679 strategies they deploy. They might have a defied strategy, they 252 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:09.639 might have a liquid staking strategy, they might have a 253 00:12:09.679 --> 00:12:12.840 loop link strategy, and whereas the ETFs, for staking, it 254 00:12:12.879 --> 00:12:16.600 will be relatively straightforward. It will just be wholly staked, 255 00:12:17.159 --> 00:12:21.039 so from returns perspective, it probably will be lower compared 256 00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:23.200 to say a treasury co who could be a little 257 00:12:23.240 --> 00:12:25.679 bit more aggressive depending on the strategy that they want 258 00:12:25.759 --> 00:12:26.159 to deploy. 259 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:29.000 So that's interesting, and I can see why the etherom 260 00:12:29.080 --> 00:12:31.639 treasury companies there's kind of a race to get as 261 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:34.080 much eath as possible because if the ETFs are not 262 00:12:34.200 --> 00:12:36.240 offering this yet and we're still waiting for the SEC 263 00:12:36.360 --> 00:12:38.519 to actually do something and you know, tell us if 264 00:12:38.519 --> 00:12:41.840 they're going to. But also the eat treasury companies seem 265 00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:44.919 to have more play so to speak, or more wiggle 266 00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:47.279 room to do more versus the ETFs. 267 00:12:47.679 --> 00:12:50.960 Yeah, exactly. So, like I think Sharplink gaming is probably 268 00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:53.279 the best example. I want to again, the largest in 269 00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:57.080 space right now. I think that just is giving an 270 00:12:57.120 --> 00:12:59.799 opportunity for investors to get the exposure they want right 271 00:12:59.840 --> 00:13:03.120 now instead of waiting for the SEC. At clarity around 272 00:13:03.159 --> 00:13:05.960 staking and ETFs and at the end of the day, 273 00:13:06.559 --> 00:13:09.000 liquid funds, asset managers they do act as kind of 274 00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:12.039 mercenary capital. They want to go and get exposure to 275 00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:14.639 the market, especially since now is quite a good time 276 00:13:14.840 --> 00:13:17.639 for eth. It does feel like the narrative has really 277 00:13:17.720 --> 00:13:20.440 changed compared to say, the beginning of the year, where 278 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:22.399 I always quite honestly say I don't think Eath was 279 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:25.279 getting enough load. Now things have really changed where we're 280 00:13:25.320 --> 00:13:27.840 in nearly the end of August and it's getting the 281 00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:29.799 attention it deserves. And a big part of that is 282 00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:33.000 obviously regulars are clarity coming out of the US and 283 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:36.200 again what these Treasury codes are doing and how aggressively 284 00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:39.200 they're buying Eath like it is a terrific endorsement that, look, 285 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:42.360 this is now a strategy that's being deployed so actively. 286 00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:44.879 You know, one of the things I was curious about, 287 00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:46.480 and I don't know if you can speak to this 288 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:48.759 is because it depends on the companies. But you know, 289 00:13:48.879 --> 00:13:53.039 could they offer the treasury companies the stake and rewards 290 00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:57.120 as a dividend to the shareholders or maybe just simply 291 00:13:57.200 --> 00:14:01.120 reinvest the amount to drive more value on the stock side. 292 00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:02.240 What do you think about that? 293 00:14:02.679 --> 00:14:06.480 I know this goes more into the companies themselves. Yeah, 294 00:14:06.519 --> 00:14:08.120 I think you're right at the end there, Like it 295 00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:11.679 ultimately depends on the company. So in the strategy they 296 00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:14.879 want to have. Like, it was quite interesting listening to 297 00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:18.960 the different investor calls for these e treasury companies. And again, 298 00:14:19.039 --> 00:14:21.240 this is kind of a green field space, like nothing 299 00:14:21.279 --> 00:14:23.279 has been around for twenty years and there's no real 300 00:14:23.360 --> 00:14:26.320 standards yet everyone is still trying to find what works 301 00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:28.360 and what doesn't work. So I would say there's no 302 00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:31.279 real right answer, there's no real rom answer. I would 303 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:33.200 say from the investor's point of view, the right answer 304 00:14:33.320 --> 00:14:34.840 is the one that makes the most amount of money 305 00:14:34.919 --> 00:14:35.679 or the highest return. 306 00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:39.320 Now, the SEC recently gave some guidance on liquid stakings 307 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:42.399 saying some of these activities are not securities. What does 308 00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:45.399 that mean for your business and even the future of 309 00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:46.200 liquid staking. 310 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:50.480 Yeah, well, at a high level, it's terrific because this 311 00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:53.480 has again been something that comes up quite frequently. So 312 00:14:53.600 --> 00:14:56.240 like when you speak to these big asset managers or issuers, 313 00:14:56.600 --> 00:14:59.399 they want one thing and that is clarity. They want 314 00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:01.559 to know what the rules of the game are. Like 315 00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:03.480 it's very easy for me to go and have all 316 00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:07.320 these different conversations, but if there's any kind of regulatory 317 00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:10.639 doubt in the background, they're very hesitant to get involved. 318 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:14.600 And that's quite fair and like these are big institutions 319 00:15:14.679 --> 00:15:17.799 Tier one have probably been around hundreds of years. They 320 00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:20.200 have quite a low risk appetite and they don't want 321 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:23.120 to offend the regulator. So when this news came out 322 00:15:23.159 --> 00:15:26.559 around clarity around liquid saking, it was terrific because now 323 00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:28.480 we know what we can do and what we can't do. 324 00:15:28.840 --> 00:15:31.399 So liquid staking not falling under securities law is a 325 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:32.000 big part of that. 326 00:15:32.600 --> 00:15:35.279 Yeah. Absolutely, And I know there's still more that they 327 00:15:35.320 --> 00:15:37.799 need to provide, but this was a good start, and 328 00:15:38.600 --> 00:15:41.960 you know, hopefully maybe with the Clarity Bill, the Market 329 00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:45.120 Structure Bill that's coming to be passed by Congress, maybe 330 00:15:45.159 --> 00:15:47.440 there's some additional language there, or maybe not, maybe the 331 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:51.120 SEC provides the full guidance later this year. Yeah. 332 00:15:51.159 --> 00:15:53.000 Absolutely, like that's what everyone wants. 333 00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:55.600 Like again, kind of going back to my Deloitte days, 334 00:15:56.000 --> 00:15:58.519 Like it was funny, no one really wanted like regulation. 335 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:01.120 They didn't want like the government to come in and 336 00:16:01.279 --> 00:16:04.840 like dampen innovation. But I think people soon realize that, look, 337 00:16:05.320 --> 00:16:07.679 like regulation is not a bad word, it's a good thing. 338 00:16:07.879 --> 00:16:10.000 Everyone just wants to know what you can and can't do. 339 00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:13.840 And ultimately the structure is the foundation of how big 340 00:16:13.960 --> 00:16:16.639 things happen, and I think if there wasn't this regulatory 341 00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:20.440 clarity and less will be happening in the market today. 342 00:16:21.159 --> 00:16:23.519 And like it's again kind of going back to the 343 00:16:23.559 --> 00:16:26.200 beginning of the year. I was here in January, the 344 00:16:26.279 --> 00:16:28.879 week of the inauguration, and it did feel like there's 345 00:16:28.919 --> 00:16:32.279 this like terrific energy in New York where Okay, things 346 00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:35.480 are opening up, innovation is happening, whereas I think maybe 347 00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:38.759 two or three years ago that energy wasn't there. And 348 00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:41.759 a big part of this new energy is obviously new administrations. 349 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:45.200 And again that regulatory clarity that's now starting to CAMA 350 00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:47.919 or is at least quite close to being kind of 351 00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:49.080 launched their live. 352 00:16:50.120 --> 00:16:52.240 Yeah, for sure. And I think, you know, I think 353 00:16:52.279 --> 00:16:55.759 people sometimes think that if there's regulation is coming in, 354 00:16:55.879 --> 00:16:58.840 that it's going to stifle innovation. But it's just a balance. 355 00:16:58.960 --> 00:17:01.559 I think if you get the balance right where you're 356 00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:06.000 not stifling innovation but you're protecting consumers and users, that's fine, right. 357 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:08.720 You allow the entrepreneurs to build, the innovators to do 358 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:11.720 their thing, and there's protections for consumers. And I think 359 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:14.039 that's the balance we just have to strite. But I know, 360 00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:17.039 to your point. Some people think, oh, you let the 361 00:17:17.079 --> 00:17:18.880 government come take over, we won't be able to do anything, 362 00:17:18.920 --> 00:17:20.720 But it's not true as long as you are able 363 00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:22.039 to get balance regulations. 364 00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:25.400 Yeah, and I think like once the regulators are actually 365 00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:28.319 listening to the market, like it would be quite bad 366 00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:32.240 if the regulators went into a black box. They did 367 00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:34.480 all their research and they didn't engage with people on 368 00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:37.039 the front line. I think that's when you have big issues, 369 00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:40.720 whereas like what the SEC is doing with the crypto 370 00:17:40.839 --> 00:17:43.839 daask force, speaking to as many different people on the 371 00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:47.240 front line as possible, that's where you start getting meaningful regulation. 372 00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:50.559 And that's where again that confidence starts to grow that Okay, 373 00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:53.240 this is a serious technology and serious players will want 374 00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:53.880 to get avolved. 375 00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:56.880 You know, you mentioned engaging with regulators. I don't know 376 00:17:56.880 --> 00:17:59.240 if you're able to talk about this, but have you 377 00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:02.720 and and poks on your team spoken to the SEC 378 00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:06.319 about your services and you know, giving them feedback and 379 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:06.839 things like that. 380 00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:10.839 Yeah, there's definitely conversations and there's engagement there. Like there's 381 00:18:10.839 --> 00:18:13.039 a number of different kind of liquid staking groups and 382 00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:16.319 staking groups, where as effectively, collective we would go and 383 00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:19.480 we would speak to say the task force or if 384 00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:22.759 there's kind of open questions and given that Lido is 385 00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:26.559 the largest liquid staking protocol, like our guidance would hopefully 386 00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:28.400 have some weight, and we just give feedback on what 387 00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:29.799 we think is the most appropriate. 388 00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:33.640 Will Liido expand beyond Etherorem? There are other proof of 389 00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:36.480 steak blockchains out there, other services that offer or other 390 00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:41.400 blockchains that have staking integrated, like Solona for example. Are 391 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:43.680 you just going to stay with Etherorem in the ecosystem 392 00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:44.839 around Etherorem? 393 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:47.359 I think, like my view on this is like, if 394 00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:49.400 you want to do something incredibly well, you have to 395 00:18:49.480 --> 00:18:52.559 focus on doing that one thing incredibly well, and for us, 396 00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:56.200 that's Ethereum is taking So in the past there was 397 00:18:56.279 --> 00:18:59.960 some liquid staking and offerings Withinlido, but that was effective. 398 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:02.799 Is sunsash again kind of based on that decision you 399 00:19:02.960 --> 00:19:05.359 want to do something well, you just focus on doing that. 400 00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:08.359 And again kind of my own personal opinion on this, 401 00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:12.519